1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: It's such a harrowing account and it's so well written. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: In hearing you speak about it now, I can't imagine 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: the level of emotional regulation a human would have to 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: have to be in the car with your own parent, 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: knowing that the police are looking for you, the world 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: is looking for you, and your car has been identified. 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: And until the trial, I'd like to think that When 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: the Night Comes Falling is the best source of information 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: to what really happens. 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KATI Studios 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season two, episode five, When the Night Comes Falling, 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 3: a requiem for the Idaho student murders. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 3: a producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 3: With the gag order firmly in place, reporting in fact 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 3: finding has been difficult and often non traditional, But even 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: given those restraints, a pivotal new book is emerged, written 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 3: by Howard Bloom. The Kirkus review says it quote thoughtfully 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 3: probes into the motives of key players in this intriguing 19 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 3: yet profoundly unsettling story. 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: The book shares the months leading up to the murders 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: of Xana Kernodle, her boyfriend Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, and 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: Kaylee Gonzolvez. 23 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: Bone Chilling, Brian Coburger details and merged. 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 4: Did the accused killer of the four University of Idaho 25 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 4: students have a deadly obsession with one of the victims. 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 4: Chilling revelations about the murders are detailed in When the 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 4: Night Comes Falling. 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: Stephanie and I sat down with Howard Bloom to discuss 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: his book, which just came out on June twenty fifth. 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: We started out by asking him to provide a bit 31 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 3: of context to his career. 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: When I finished graduate school Stamford, I came out worked 33 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: at the Village Voice for a little bit, and then 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: I was hired by the New York Times and I 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: was there for about twelve years, twelve and a half 36 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: years as an investigative reporter. Was nominated for two pullets 37 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: by the Times and a lot of awards, and then 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: I went on and I've done sixteen books, many bestsellers, 39 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: wrote for Vanity Fair for a couple of decades, and 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: wrote one magazine awards. And so I've been doing this, 41 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: knocking on doors, trying to put together stories, trying to 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: get readers interested in what I hope are compelling, true narratives. 43 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 3: How did you land on the title? It was an 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 3: intriguing title. 45 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 2: Well, when the Night Comes Falling. I'm a big Bob 46 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: Dylan fan. When the Night Comes Falling from the sky 47 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: is a Bob Dylan song that always sort of plays 48 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: in my head. And hearing a dark night in Moscow. 49 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: I remember walking the streets of Moscow, walking right down 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,839 Speaker 2: King Road, and I sort of struck by that song. 51 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: I could hear that song sort of playing in my head, 52 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: your letters burning in the fireplace, and when the night 53 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: comes falling from the sky, And I thought, well, falling 54 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: from the sky a little too much, so just when 55 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: the night comes falling. I remember being out in front 56 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: of the murder house not long after it happened, and 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: they just walled it up, put a plywood wall in 58 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: front of it. I was thinking to myself, what was 59 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: that to keep people from breaking in? Or was that 60 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: to keep the demons inside? To lock it up? And 61 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 2: then suddenly I'm caught in a cone of light from nowhere. 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: It startles me and I figured off with light when 63 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: the night comes falling, And the cone of light was 64 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: from a security car that been parked a caddy corner 65 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: was black and the night was dark to the murder house, 66 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: and they were just checking on me. An officer called out, 67 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: be careful, it's icy out there, and I said, thank you, officer, 68 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: and I went on my way. But that's sort of 69 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: being surprised out there. I could almost imagine what it's 70 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: like to be awoken in from your sleep in that 71 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: house someone say there's someone here, and then you feel 72 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: like the night comes falling from the sky. 73 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: Can you just describe how did you start to follow 74 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: this story and what was your reporting? Like I understand 75 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: there were trips to Idaho, Pennsylvania, hundreds of interviews. 76 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: I first really heard about the story any detail around 77 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: the Thanksgiving table up in Connecticut just days after the murder. 78 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: People started talking about it and I hadn't paid too 79 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: much attention to it, and the more they talked about it, 80 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: I was pretty interesting. It was a murder filled with perplexities, 81 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 2: nothing was known, and I thought this might be an 82 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: interesting story to investigate. I called up Graydon Carter or 83 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 2: emailed him, who ran airmail, and I said, Grayden, do 84 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: I've worked for for a while at Vanity Fair, and 85 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: there's an old acquaintance and a wonderful editor. I said, 86 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: you know, I'd like to go out there. What do 87 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: you guys think? And he and Alexander Stanley, who run airmail, 88 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: said sure, going out there. And I said, I don't 89 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: know what I'll find, but go ahead, young, knock on doors. 90 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: I put on my reporters French go out, knock on doors. 91 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: And I was there for a couple of days, and 92 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 2: I figured I had no idea that I was going 93 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: to write a piece or even certainly not a book, 94 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: but I thought I solved the case. This was when 95 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 2: no one knew who the suspect was, and I figured 96 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: it out. The house is sort of in this gully 97 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: around it, and most of the fancier houses in the 98 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: nearby that area were members of this local church group, 99 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 2: the christ Church Kirkass Group, and they had had some 100 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: problems with the community. Their deacon had gone to jail 101 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: or pedophilia. Their members of young women in the group 102 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: had posted videos complaining about sexual harassment, sex crimes, whatever, 103 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 2: and so I thought, well, maybe someone from this group 104 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: was involved. Maybe it was a sexual nature. So I 105 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: tried to track down the men. Doug Wilson of the group, 106 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: and he's not returning my call. So intrepidly I go 107 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: to the church parking lot and I corner him and 108 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: he's very gracious. He's a very charismatic, a wonderfully articulate man. 109 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: I disagree with everything he says, but he's a very 110 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: impressive figure, and he very graciously invites me into his 111 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: office and he's talking to me. We're sitting almost Caddy 112 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: corner in a room, and he's telling me the problems 113 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: that they're having in the town with the local officials. 114 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: He talks about a war with the police because of 115 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: COVID restrictions, etc. Et cetera. And I suddenly realized, I'm 116 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 2: trying to solve this case, and I'm in a room 117 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: with this man, as gracious as he is, he hasn't 118 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: been vaccinated. It's the height of the pandemic, and there 119 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 2: are no windows. And two days later I didn't solve 120 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: the case, but I was stuck in Moscow with COVID. 121 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: So that was my introduction to all this. Then on 122 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: my second trip, though, I began to investigate more and 123 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: trips to Pennsylvania and to Washington State, and I realized 124 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: there was a compelling story here, and I started writing 125 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: the pieces for Airmail. I eventually wrote seven pieces. What 126 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: I thought was, is there a book here? Is there 127 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: a larger story to tell there? You know, everyone realizes 128 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: there hasn't been a trial, but was there a story 129 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: with a beginning, a middle, and an end. I realized 130 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: there was very much the identification, the hunting down, the 131 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: solving of the mystery towards the suspect. Coburger is a 132 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: fascinating story as well as the story of the individuals involved. 133 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: And I found a way I believed to structure the 134 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: narrative and the coherent and compelling, an engrossing way along 135 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: based around the road trip that Coberger takes with his father, 136 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: this trip across country, and my narrative inspiration, you know, 137 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: pretentiously was the Odyssey, you know, this long tenure journey 138 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: by Odysseus. Well, here I have just a five day journey. 139 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: But it was to me rather compelling as Brian and 140 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: his father make this cross country trip, and hanging over 141 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: the entire journey is the father coming to terms in 142 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: his mind with whether or not, oh my gosh, could 143 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: my son be actually involved in the murder of these 144 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: four young people. That to me was a dramatic moment, 145 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: and I use that to go back and forth in 146 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: time to tell this tale. 147 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: Structurally, I think it works beautifully. Thank you on that 148 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: five day drive. Can you talk us through it a 149 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 3: little bit. I had not realized that the FBI were 150 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 3: so uncoordinated with the ground officers. Can you just describe 151 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 3: the details of that. 152 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: What happens is around December eleventh, And this is one 153 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: of the revelations in this book. The FBI, working in 154 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: Quantico has deciphered the genetic genealogy to make Coburger a 155 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: person of interest, built out the family tree, and at 156 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: the end of the father's branch they've found Brian Cooberger. 157 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: They don't share this information with the local Moscow task force. 158 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: Why do they not do this well, the most generous 159 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: explanation would be that they're not sure investigative genetic genealogy 160 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: is not allowed into courts. They don't want to prejudice 161 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 2: the case. They want to make sure the task force 162 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: connects all the dots. He's just a person of interest. 163 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: That's a generous explanation. A more cynical explanation is that 164 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: the FBI wanted to get all the credit for solving 165 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: the case. They didn't want to share it with the 166 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: local authorities. They wanted to come off as the g 167 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: men who solved this great mystery which the whole nation 168 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 2: is fixated on whatever reason. When the Coburgers leave, the 169 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: FBI is following them, but they want The FBI wants 170 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: the Coburgers to get out of town first before they 171 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: get directly on their tail. And they don't want the 172 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 2: Moscow police, you know, And they also don't want on 173 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: the Coburgers to know. Meanwhile, Brian Coburger picks a route, 174 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: and he's not going to the straightest the quickest distance 175 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: between two points is a straight line. He's not going 176 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: that way. He's going down to Colorado. His dad had 177 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 2: already marked it out, and so he's taking this different 178 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: route because arguably he's trying to evade anyone following him. 179 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 2: He's trying to take invasive actions. This change of route 180 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 2: from what the father had previously planned and mapped out 181 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: before he came out there leads to tensions and Brian 182 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: is extremely followed him and his father realizes he's caught 183 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 2: his son in a bit of a mood, and he 184 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: seen Brian's moods before, so his usual reaction is WHOA. 185 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: He steps back. He doesn't want to get too close 186 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 2: to this slimmering volcano. So father is in this car, 187 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: the FBI is following. They have vehicles on the road. 188 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: They have a cessna above like a hawk, waiting to 189 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 2: swoop down at the right moment when they put the 190 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: pieces together. And meanwhile the father is slowly, slowly putting 191 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: pieces together in his mind. Four people were murdered just 192 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: ten miles from where his son is living. His son 193 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: is in this highly agitated state. The father was concerned 194 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 2: enough about his son to make the trip out there 195 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: to accompany him, and they just happened to be sitting 196 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: shoulder to shoulder in a white Honde, a Lantra, which 197 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: is the precise car the authorities have announced they're looking 198 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 2: for in this murder. So the father is of course suspicious. Then, 199 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: as a drive across America, two things start to happen 200 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: quickly and by the second day of the trip. But 201 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: first after the FBI loses them and then finds them again. 202 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: The first thing that happens is there's a shooting right 203 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: near Brian Coburger's university residence. A Army veteran has taken 204 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: two students hostage. He lets the students go, the swat 205 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: team moves in. They can't talk him out of it 206 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 2: or the swat team acts arguably precipitously, and they shoot 207 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: a veteran dead. And father and the son get an 208 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: alert from the university about this, and this triggers off 209 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: more thoughts in his father's mind about the benevolence of 210 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: the situation. His son is caught up in that there's 211 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: something wrong with being with the West, and his son 212 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: has been trapped in this Oh my gosh. And just 213 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: as these thoughts are taking shape in his mind, they 214 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: see flashing lights and there's a sheriff's deputy car in 215 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 2: Indiana asking them to pull over. And his father at 216 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: this point realizes, oh my gosh, everything I've been thinking 217 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: about is quite possibly true, and this is some situation 218 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 2: I'm in. And he doesn't know how to make this realization, 219 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: but turns out, both to the father's relief and to 220 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: the FBI's relief, who's also watching this, they don't understand 221 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: what's happening. This was just a traffic stop. They go off. 222 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: Nine minutes later, the same thing happens once again. There's 223 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: a traffic stop, this time by a state trooper. He 224 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: pulls the car over again. It's a traffic infraction. But 225 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: the father now can't help the feeling all his thoughts 226 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: are becoming true. Everything he feared, every thought he was 227 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: trying to repress, is becoming closer and closer to reality, 228 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: as if he's following footsteps in the snow and getting 229 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: closer and closer to his destination of where they're going 230 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: to lead. And he doesn't like where it's leading one bit. 231 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: And as this journey continues, and as they arrive in Pennsylvania, 232 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: the father is suddenly filled with a sort of dread 233 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: that he can't quite articulate. But at the same moment 234 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: he knows what is happening. 235 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: It's such a harrowing account, and it's so well written. 236 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: In hearing you speak about it now, it's me so queasy. 237 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: I can't imagine the level of emotional regulation a human 238 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: would have to have to be in the car with 239 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: your own parent, knowing that the police are looking for you, 240 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: the world is looking for you. Your car has been identified, 241 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: and you're with somebody who who knows you well, how 242 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: do you keep that together, and we too have often 243 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: speculated about what that car ride must have been. Like, 244 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: you had an interesting point, and we had heard something 245 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: similar to about the early days of Brian moving into 246 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: his apartment when he had actually made the move, and 247 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: that Dad was sort of, you know, trying to how 248 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: we interpreted it, was trying to make him some friends 249 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: in and around the apartment complex. And just like you, 250 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: that always sort of stuck in my head because it 251 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: was two part. Either that means, look, my son's been 252 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: a little bit awkward his whole life and maybe has 253 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: a difficult problem with meeting new friends and social cues, 254 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: et cetera. So Dad's in the habit of trying to 255 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: create comfort for his son, knowing that it's hard for 256 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: him to kind of acclimate. That's sort of touching and 257 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: it kind of hurts to hear. Or does that also 258 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: point to I knew something was really seriously, dreadfully wrong 259 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: with my son, and we're hoping for the best here 260 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: and he's off to the races and I'm going to 261 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: try my best, but he's a grown man. 262 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: You know. 263 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 3: Where do you put that? 264 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sort of a little of both. I mean, 265 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: you're right, on I agree with you very much. I mean, 266 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: the father sixty eight years old. Money is tight in 267 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: the family. He's a janitor. They've gone been bankrupt twice 268 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 2: over the years. He still makes his cross country trip 269 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: in August with his son to the university for the 270 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: first time. Then he has to turn around and go again. 271 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: And why does he do this Because he's worried about 272 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: what's going to happen to his son. How is his 273 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: son going to fit in? He knows Brian is a 274 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: square peg in every roundhole he's been in life, and 275 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: he just doesn't know. And remember, you know, this is 276 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: not a father driving a young kid off to college 277 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: like maybe we did at one point. Brian is twenty 278 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: eight years old, he's going to be teaching young kids, 279 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: teaching assistant, he's going for his doctorate. And still the 280 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: father feels he has to accompany him. And when he 281 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: gets to Washington State University, one of the first things 282 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: the father takes it upon himself to do. They saw 283 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: a neighbor in the elevator. I think it was Christopher Martine, 284 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: so one of the guys, and he says, you know, 285 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: we watch out for my son. He's a hard time 286 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: making friends. Anything you can do, I appreciate it. And 287 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: Martinez is a generous soul. And two days later he 288 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: invites Coburger to a pool party, and this is Coburger's 289 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: first entrance into the pool part takes place in Moscow 290 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: at a complex called I Think the Grove in Moscow, 291 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: and Brian goes to this school party and what happens 292 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: at the pool party. I interviewed many of the people 293 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: at the pool party. It's also sort of interesting, and 294 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: this is sort of news that hasn't been reported to 295 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: such a scene for part of who Brian is and 296 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: why a book like this can come out now before trial, 297 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: because I'd like to think I'm giving you the reader's 298 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 2: insight into the characters in this story. Brian goes to 299 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 2: this party. He's sitting on the edge of the pool 300 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 2: talking to one of the guys, and he sees these 301 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: two young women, attractive women there in black two piece 302 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 2: bathing suits, and he goes up to one of them 303 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: and just picks himself up without saying a word to 304 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: the guy he's talking to, goes up and asks for 305 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: her phone number and he gets it. Then, without almost 306 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: breaking stride, he goes to her friend and asks her 307 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 2: this is for her phone number, and he gets it too, 308 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: and the guy who's watching him says, what, this guy's 309 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 2: a player. He's pretty cool, dude. And Brian comes back 310 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 2: and just leaves the party. I spoke with the two 311 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: women involved. He never calls them. However, after his arrest, 312 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: they began to rethink the events, and they realized they 313 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: were getting a lot of hang up calls in the 314 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: weeks following their giving their phone number to Brian at 315 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: the party, and they apothe size that perhaps this was 316 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: Brian calling them but not having the nerve to initiate 317 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: the conversation. And that's sort of the metaphor for the 318 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 2: state he was in. He had taken himself so far. 319 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: He made this journey from this kid from a heartscrabble 320 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 2: Pennsylvania community, from an overweight heroin addict to becoming a 321 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: doctoral candidate at a very prestigious university. And he had 322 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 2: turned his body into a fortress. He'd reached his hair, 323 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: he was looking good, he was in shape, hanging out 324 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 2: at the pool, and yet he couldn't go to the 325 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 2: next step of integrating his life to that of a 326 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: normal twenty eight year old, a normal guy who wanted 327 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: to just meet people and have friends and have a 328 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: social life. It was just an impossibility for him, almost. 329 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: As though he mustered the courage and then couldn't follow through, 330 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: so it took everything he had potentially. I've always sort 331 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: of drawn a connection in my head, this is again 332 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: only in my head, between Brian and his sisters, and 333 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: just this relationship he has with women is interesting given 334 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: he grew up as the baby of women and was 335 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: raised by older sisters, and by all accounts we hear 336 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: they're lovely and all of the above, and I was 337 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: curious if you just had an opinion on that. I 338 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: know the dad is a primary focus. 339 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: One of his sisters, who's a family psychologist, plays an 340 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 2: interesting role in all this. After they get back to Pennsylvania, 341 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 2: so Christmas Holidays, the whole family is there, and I 342 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: describe as the sister the psychologist sees a couple of 343 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 2: things that give her pause. She sees Brian cleaning out 344 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: his car meticulously the same sort of white Hondai a 345 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 2: Lantra that the police just happened to be looking for 346 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: that was involved in a quadruple murder. Then she sees 347 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 2: Brian sorting in his garbage, his personal garbage into plastic 348 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: zimp lock bags, walking out of the house, going down 349 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: the hill not to the family's garbage pails, but to 350 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: the neighbor's garbage pails and putting them in. And you know, 351 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: these set her mind wandering, and she realizes there's something 352 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: seriously wrong and what seems impossible might very likely be true. 353 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: My brother might be involved in these four murders. And 354 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: she goes to confront the father and she says that 355 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 2: I think we have to face up to something. I 356 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: think we might have a problem. And the father, who's 357 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: been having all these thoughts all the way across America, 358 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: when he hears this, what does he do? He turns 359 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: around and just leaves the room because it's it's too impossible. 360 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: It means thinking the unthinkable. And yet, as I point 361 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 2: out in my book, there's sort of an irony that 362 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: as if the next scene comes from a Greek drama. 363 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: And yet when they identify the DNA on the button 364 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 2: of the knife sheath, they don't identify it to Brian Coberger. 365 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: They identify it Michael Kolberger. And then they realized that 366 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: his son's DNA. The son of Michael Koberger's DNA is 367 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: on that night. She's so in many ways like a 368 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 2: Greek drama. The hero of the Greek drama or the 369 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: victim of the Greek drama always tries to escape his fate, 370 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 2: but he can never can He's always pulled back in. 371 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: So is Michael Kolberger. He's pulled back in. His fate 372 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: is to no matter how much he tries not to 373 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: be his reason for his son's downfall. 374 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: I hadn't heard that account of his one sister and 375 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: then the other sister, the middle sister. 376 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 3: She was an actress. 377 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: And as you know, much has been made about this 378 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: in a slasher movie back many many years ago. But 379 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: the plotline of that particular murder is that nine co 380 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: eds go out into the woods and only seven come back. 381 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: And again, is that a direct connection. No, of course not. 382 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: And I was just curious if you had heard any 383 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: rumblings about that. 384 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,959 Speaker 2: I've heard the rumblings. Tried to connect the dots, and 385 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 2: I couldn't take it far. I tried to stick to 386 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 2: what I could substantiate. I didn't want to hypothesize more 387 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: than was necessary about the course of events. I think 388 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: because of the gag order What this case needs is 389 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 2: an injection of facts. You know, there's such a vacuum 390 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 2: of people being able to find out what really happened, 391 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 2: and I wanted to try to fill that vacuum with 392 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: not fatuous speculation or even vicious character assassinations, but I've 393 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: wanted to tell what happened. That gag order is particularly 394 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 2: pernicious because the trial keeps on getting delayed and delayed 395 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: and delayed. We have a town that's sort of victimized 396 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: by this. There's a lack of understanding, there's a lack 397 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: of ability to move on. They can, you know, bulldoze 398 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: the murder house, the university can take it down, but 399 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: that really is silly. You're not going to get rid 400 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: of what happened that way. What you need is a 401 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: sense of justice, a sense of a clear butt ending, 402 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 2: and that perhaps can only be resolved in a trial. 403 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: And until the trial, I'd like to think that When 404 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: the Night Comes Falling is the best source of information 405 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: to what really happened. 406 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 407 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 3: a moment. Stephanie and I continue our conversation with Howard Bloom, 408 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 3: author of When the Night Comes Falling, requiem for the 409 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 3: Idaho student murders. I asked him about Doug Wilson, the 410 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 3: head of the christ Church in town, who had been 411 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: feuding with local law enforcement and alleging for his own 412 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 3: reasons that people shouldn't believe the police. To me, it 413 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 3: seems like it would behoove the prosecution to also be 414 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 3: in favor of a change of venue. 415 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: I think the defense is shooting themselves in the foot 416 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: if they try to move the trial out of Moscow 417 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: because of Doug Wilson. I mean, I sat in a 418 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 2: room with him, and he told me, I will tell 419 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 2: my parishioners anytime a Moscow police officer guests on the stand, 420 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 2: you have every reason to be skeptical because he's lied 421 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: about us in the courtroom, so there's no reason to 422 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: believe that he won't lie about Brian Colberger. So you 423 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: have to realize who the jury pool is going to be. 424 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: A lot of people associated with the university will be 425 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: just eliminated. There are people who have too much knowledge 426 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 2: or preconceived notions about the case. And then that leaves 427 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: the members of Doug Wilson's church, two thousand people. Every 428 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 2: one of them will be skeptical about anything the prosecution says. 429 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: So I think it's really odd that the prosecution is 430 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: fighting the move from Leyta County of the case. And 431 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: I think it's even honor as the defense is trying 432 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: to move it. And the only reason I can think 433 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 2: that the defense is trying to go along with this 434 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: is because it's part of the strategy that's undermined everything 435 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: they've done since the beginning, and that strategy is one 436 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: of delay, delay, and more delay. You know, lawyers have 437 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: a wisdom. They say, when you have the facts, you 438 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: pound the facts. When you don't have the facts, you 439 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: pound the table. And there's sure has been a lot 440 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: of table pounding by the defense. There's been a rat 441 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 2: tat tat of motion after motion after motion, just really 442 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: to buy time. I mean, look what they've come up. 443 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 2: It's been nearly two years and they finally have released 444 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: their expanded alibi. The alibi was it turned out to be, 445 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: as the all no well, at four in the morning 446 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 2: on a freezing night, Brian Colbert, who was out by 447 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: himself in this wilderness park or there were no witnesses 448 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: of course, except the animals, no cell towers, and he 449 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: was staring on this frosty night at the stars in 450 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: the freezing cold just happened when the murders occurred, and 451 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 2: we had a way two years to hear that without 452 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 2: any substantiating information, a properative evidence, and yet this has 453 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 2: been dragging on and on. So I think this is 454 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 2: a sort of a specious argument the defense is giving. 455 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 2: Ann Taylor is a smart attorney. She's doing what she 456 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 2: has to do with the cards she's been dealt. But 457 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: I think it's a mistake to move out of Moscow, 458 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 2: and maybe she thinks she's just buying time again and 459 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 2: that moved the change of venue will never be improved. 460 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: And then so breathe a sigh of relief. 461 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 3: So what I was actually going to ask you about, 462 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 3: and this is going back to your saying, you know 463 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 3: how because of the gag order, there has been kind 464 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 3: of a dearth of facts where otherwise there would be, 465 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 3: and there has been so much conjecture. So in your 466 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 3: book was something that we have been just wondering about, 467 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 3: which is sort of placement in the house, and specifically 468 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 3: that the dog was in the other bedroom of Maddie 469 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 3: and Kaylee. Either I missed it or we couldn't find 470 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 3: it in the AFFI David, So I'm just curious, how 471 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 3: did those facts come to clarity if you can share. 472 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: According to law enforcement, I think it's been pretty well 473 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: established that the dog Murphy, he was in Kaylee's bedroom 474 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: and Kelly was with Mattie and that's why they left 475 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: in there. And the dog is howling ferociously. I mean, 476 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: it's as if he can smell the blood, and he's 477 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: in a state. You can hear on some of the 478 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: surveillance tapes the dog just you know, barking wildly. It's 479 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: it's horrific to listen to. You know, all these moments 480 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 2: are extremely dramatic, and I try to do justice to 481 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 2: them without exploiting them in the book. And it's a 482 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: delicate balance because the scenes are so gripping and yet 483 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: so sad, and while there is a TV series going 484 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: to be made for my book, you don't want to 485 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: exploit it. You don't want to exploit the drama, but 486 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: you want to do it in a factual way that 487 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 2: conveys to people the horror of it. So it's a 488 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: thin line of a delicate balance and a challenge for 489 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: writer and a reporter. 490 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was so well executed in that regard, 491 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: and to Courtney's point, always imagined for ourselves like what 492 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: was the order that night, and who was happening upon 493 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: whom and why? And you know, were they eating takeout? 494 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: And you know how dogs get around takeout, They get 495 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: kind of vorocious and they want food, so you put 496 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: them in the other room. 497 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 3: Or was the dog in the room. 498 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: You know, Maddie Mogan working out the restaurants. We had 499 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: sort of always heard that and thought that that was 500 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: a potential connection. And obviously, as you know, Zana worked 501 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: there as well, at the Mad Greek, and. 502 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 3: Then we were never able to substantiate that. 503 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: So is that the connective tissue. 504 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 3: That's a pretty big bombshell. 505 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, as I've been able to put it together. Coburger 506 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: go to the Mad Greek, he saw Maddie there. There's 507 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: no evidence none, I want to emphasize it that he 508 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: ever even spoke a word to Maddie. But for whatever reason, 509 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: her beauty, her exuberance, or vitality, just her blonde good 510 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: looks somehow fixated. He fixated on that. And he was 511 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: a man, as I've said, who's prone to obsessions. He 512 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: measured out his life in obsessions, whether it was heroin 513 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 2: or kicking heroin, whether it was game, losing one hundred 514 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,239 Speaker 2: and twenty five pounds, in building his body back up, 515 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: becoming from this mediocre student to becoming a graduate teaching 516 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: assistant at a great university. He had all these large 517 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: arcs in his life, and for some reason, Maddie became 518 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 2: his fixation, and just like the girls of the pool party, 519 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: he could fixate on it, but he could not take 520 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: the next step. He could not involve himself in any realistic, 521 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: communical way in her life. And then her presence became 522 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 2: not something that was an astonishment to him, but rather 523 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: a rebuke. And this buke gnawed and gnawed at him 524 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 2: until he tried to felt that the demons that were 525 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: pursuing in the only way he could live in this world. 526 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: And here I'm hypothesizing was to get rid of Maddie, 527 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: to get rid of what was causing him such distress. 528 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: The pain was so hard, and yet he still tries 529 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: to fight it. As I said earlier, when he goes 530 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: to the house of three times, each one of those 531 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 2: three trips is an attempt first to go to the 532 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: house and then to get away, until he finally crosses 533 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: the line that's dividing the idea and the reality, and 534 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: he comes to the demons inside him, and he becomes 535 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: to the monster. I believe that he was fated to be. 536 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 3: He could really feel that tension as it's described of 537 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 3: the Do I go there? Do I pull back? I 538 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 3: had a follow up question on that, and do we 539 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 3: know that Coburger or you know, he's presumed innocent, of course, 540 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 3: as is anyone until they go to trial. Do we 541 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 3: know that Maddie and Kaylee's room was visited first by 542 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 3: the murderer. 543 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: Yes, that's what the authorities believe. And you know, he 544 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 2: doesn't go into the room with the dogs. He goes 545 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: right into Maddie's room, and then he's surprised, I believe, 546 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: to find Kelly there too. And this is also it's 547 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: been said that's been reported that the wounds that Kelly 548 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: receives are much more ferocious. And I think the reason 549 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: for this is not just that she fights back. He's 550 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 2: surprised to see her and he sees his carefully imagined 551 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: plan is now going to ride, and he's slashing out 552 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 2: in anger at her, at himself, and his plan falling apart, 553 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: and in this state of intense mental and physical activity. 554 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: He just leaves the knife sheet behind and it's carefully 555 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: laid out. Plan is already undone in the first moments. 556 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: And I think, as I said after the murder of Maddie, 557 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 2: the three of the murders that follow are grim with 558 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: a collateral damage. 559 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 3: You mentioned something that had escaped me, which was the 560 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 3: way the coroner described the different wounds on the different people. 561 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 3: It was interesting, Is there anything you wanted to say 562 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: about They're not discrepancies, they're different words, but they're very 563 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: different words that are used. 564 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: There are very different words. And that that points out 565 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: two things. I think the level of sophistication or lack 566 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 2: of sophistication of the coroner. She rather has now given 567 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: ammunition that will be used by the defense to raise doubts. 568 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: I mean, all the defense has to do is raise 569 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: doubts with the jury. And the second, how hard it's 570 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: going to be. Two. While I believe Coberger is guilty, 571 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 2: how hard it will be to make the case. There's 572 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 2: the dialectics of a courtroom. It's basically every expert you 573 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: bring in, you can bring in a counter expert, so 574 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: you can have someone say touch DNA as the gold 575 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,239 Speaker 2: standard that never fails. You can find someone else will 576 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: point out, well, that's not so fast touch. DNA is 577 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: really not that great. I think case law after case 578 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: law at the case law we've had to impune it, 579 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 2: and on and on and on. And this foreigner's report 580 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 2: is going to raise war questions. I think they're legitimate answers, 581 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: but it's up to a skilled attorney to praise the 582 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: questions in a way that they will resonate in the 583 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 2: jurist mind. And I think they've handed them when they 584 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: can knock out of the park Grohunds. 585 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 3: You bring up the level of sophistication of the small town, 586 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 3: which it was really interesting how when you had laid 587 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 3: it out that Moscow Police, the entire department had thirty 588 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 3: seven members, and yet the quote backup of the FBI 589 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 3: were forty members. 590 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 2: And the FBI brought in their separate their own trailer, 591 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 2: they had their own sort of offices to keep them 592 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 2: separate from the Moscow cops in the parking lot of 593 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: the police headquarters building. Interestingly, about the police headquarters building, 594 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 2: it's not one hundred yards from where the Brian Berger 595 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 2: was at the pool party, it's right at the bottom 596 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: of that hill that you go up to get to 597 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 2: the grove. You know, when he drove by that first night, 598 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: he was literally driving by the police headquarters and chief 599 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 2: Prize window. 600 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 3: Just the way things intersect such as that, such as 601 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 3: the pool party. And I won't give away how you 602 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 3: bring in sort of the pool party in the end, 603 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 3: unless you want to speak about the potential other leads. 604 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 2: I don't want to give away too much of the book. 605 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 2: One of the things I tried to construct was a 606 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: pretty suspenseful, almost mystery story, and I don't want to 607 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 2: ruin the mystery for readers. I like to be able 608 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 2: to sit down. It's not a long book. It seemed 609 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: to take forever to write, and I think I'd like 610 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: people to get it quite up in the experience of 611 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: reading it and follow the mystery along with me as 612 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 2: I was writing it. 613 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 614 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 3: a moment. Stephanie and I continue our conversation with Politzer 615 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 3: Prize nominated author Howard Bloom, whose in depth reporting prompted 616 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 3: him to write the book. When the Night Comes Falling, 617 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 3: a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, not to. 618 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: Put words in your mouth. But you know, all of 619 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: our hearts are with the friends and families, obviously of 620 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: the beautiful victims, and obviously the town is kind of 621 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: trying to heal. I would imagine was there any takeaway 622 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: just from being there and sort of being in that 623 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: beehive during this critical time. 624 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 2: Yes, I think healing is impossible for the town until 625 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: there is a trial, until there is a verdict. And 626 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: I think the town will always be suspicious. I think 627 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 2: you can knock down, bulldoze all the murder houses that 628 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: you want, and yet the demons will still be unleashed. 629 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 2: And that also is a history of babbagery in that town. 630 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: I mean, I found that a book that was written 631 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty five by a woman by Carol Ryan, 632 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 2: whose grandfather was a town doctor and he was just 633 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: shot in cold blood, and she writes about the savage 634 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,959 Speaker 2: forces that are at bay in this town. It's still 635 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: a wild western place. Every police officer now has an emblem, 636 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 2: a shoulder patch on his police uniform and it shows 637 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 2: the clock tower in town. The clock tower is set 638 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: for one forty nine, I think it is, And that 639 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: was the hour of the day where Lee Nubill, who 640 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: was a police officer there, was shot and killed by 641 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: deranged gunman who also killed a church deacon. There's been 642 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 2: very many unexplained outbursts of violence in the town. There 643 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: is a task force have been looking into child pornography 644 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 2: in the town. There's large drug use. It's a pretty place, 645 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: there's a deceptive place, and it's a town almost unverged, 646 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: as one of the lawyers in town told me, of 647 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 2: a civil war, because on one side you have this 648 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 2: right wing church group that wants to create what they 649 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: called a theocracy where Moscow is the capital of the 650 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: American Withoubt Redoubt is a conservative nation. And on the 651 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,720 Speaker 2: other side you have one of the most liberal universities 652 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 2: in the state, a party school, the first ranked party 653 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: school in oh of Idaho. So these two cultures, these 654 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: two values clash, and you can see it when you 655 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 2: walk down Main Street. On one side of Main Street 656 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: are the old businesses that are owned by the christ 657 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: Church kirkers. On the other side of the free willing 658 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: bars and places where kids hang out. And there's also 659 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 2: a really good Italian restaurant. A specificatures, really. 660 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 3: Good dichotomous nature really does come to life. I have 661 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 3: a specific question. You mentioned that Kayley's father was going 662 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 3: through Kayley's phone in an effort to understandably get to 663 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 3: the bottom of what happened with his daughter. Why didn't 664 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 3: authorities have her phone? 665 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 2: Well, Cayley's father is an interesting character in this whole story. 666 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 2: I never interviewed him, but I spoke to a lot 667 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: of people who spoke with him. He's made lots of 668 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 2: public statements, and to my mind, he's in many ways 669 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 2: a hero. I mean, he's someone who refuses, refuses to 670 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: let his daughter's death become a cold case. He refuses 671 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: to accept things its face value, and he wants to 672 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 2: get to the bottom of things. And there's something very valiant, 673 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 2: very heroic. He's like a figure from Shakespeare who just 674 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: wants to keep ongoing and find out what's happening. At 675 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: the same time, while he's doing this, he's also in 676 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 2: many ways destroying his ability to get over these events. 677 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 2: He's caught up in it. He's now I think angry 678 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: that my book, I'm not quite sure why, actually breaks 679 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 2: my heart. The last person I would want to do 680 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 2: is insult him. How can you impugne any action taken 681 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: by a man who lost his daughter as a father 682 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 2: of three, you know, my heart goes out to him. 683 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 2: A man who has to say to the reporters, you 684 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 2: send your girl off to college and she comes back 685 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 2: to you and earn that kind of statement is heartbreaking. 686 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 2: And a man who stares into the camera when he's 687 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 2: being interviewed and says to the killer who's out there, 688 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 2: I am coming for you. He's making a promise to 689 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 2: the killer and a promise to himself. So in that way, 690 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 2: I think he's a hero and his actions are heroic, 691 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 2: and I'm just sorry he's not happy about the way 692 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 2: he's portrayed. I tried to, I think, to it respectfully 693 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 2: and with dignity. And I thought I treated his daughter 694 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 2: with dignity too, And that was if I didn't certainly 695 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 2: apologize for that. Because these kids were just wonderful young 696 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 2: people and to not have the chance to live out 697 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 2: their lives and to be what they were going to be, 698 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 2: it's just unfair, you know. The heavens were just not 699 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 2: fair to them. 700 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: I've seen so much footage of mister Gonzalvez, and I 701 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: think I speak on behalf of anyone who's been following 702 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: this case. We are rallying for every parent and every 703 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: family member to get justice. And it's true when he 704 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: does speak into the camera, you feel it like a 705 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: dagger in your own heart. 706 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, collectively. 707 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that for every parent 708 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: who's gone through a nightmare like this, and then to 709 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: them specifically, there's no words. 710 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 2: Really, I appreciate your giving the time and that I 711 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,479 Speaker 2: hope people will read the book on two levels, One 712 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 2: as this suspense story that's a police drama, and secondly 713 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 2: as a character study of some ways two fathers who 714 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: become victims of this whole drama of Michael Hoberger Steve 715 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 2: don Clovis, both of them caught up events that are 716 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: just unimaginable, larger than live and are impossible to deal with, 717 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 2: and yet they have to deal with the impossible. There's 718 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 2: attention in this entire book, and even as I go 719 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 2: around talking about it, talking about things that don't make 720 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 2: sense and yet happened. 721 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 3: More on that next time. For more information on the 722 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 3: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Kat 723 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 3: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger, 724 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design 725 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 3: by Jeff Toois, music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker 726 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 3: is a production of Kat Studios and iHeartRadio. For more 727 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 3: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 728 00:41:54,200 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.