1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: When you run your own business, you know time equals money. 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: That's not just an old saying, it's true. So why 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: waste your valuable time dealing with issues legal zoom can 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: help with You may already know. Over two million people 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: have used a legal zoom to start their businesses. But 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: legal Zoom services don't end there. 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For special savings, be 16 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: sure to enter promo code Nancy in a n c 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: Y in the referral box at check out for special 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: savings only at legal zoom dot com. Legal zoom dot 19 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: com Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two, two thousand five. On the small 21 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: island of a rubat. Natalie Holloway was with friends at 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: a local bar where she was last seen getting a 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains a mystery. Her 24 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: dad says that he in a private eye found human 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: remains in a rubo. We took those remains and had 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: those remains tested and then just returned last week. That's 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: her human remains. Will they be able to be some 28 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: kind of test, Dave, that will be answer once and 29 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: for all whether this is Natalie. We're in the process 30 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: of doing a d n A test. Dave Holloway says 31 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: that a friend of a man who was once suspected 32 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that there's 33 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm just 34 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: trying to wait and see. A beautiful young girl goes 35 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: on her high school senior trip. Her parents take her 36 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: to say goodbye. It's heavily chaperon. All is well until 37 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: it's time for her to come home, and she never 38 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: shows up at the plane. The chaperones don't know what happened, 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: her friends don't know what happened, and the parents are 40 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: devastated to this day, they still don't know what happened 41 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: to Natalie Holloway. And with me today in addition to 42 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: an all star lineup, is the man at the center 43 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: of the search for Natalie Holloway, some calling him the hero, Gabriel. 44 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: He was managed to help crack this case wide open. 45 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: He is with us now, I mean, I see Grace, 46 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: First of all, before I go to Gabriel, I'm gonna 48 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: start with Art Harris, Emmy Award winning reporter Art. What 49 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: is the latest? I'm now understanding that someone in the 50 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: case claims Natalie's bones have been mixed with a dog's 51 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: bones and cremated for two hundred dollars. Have you heard that? 52 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: One report Nancy has his friend taking the remains to 53 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: a local crematory and paying the officials there two hundred 54 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: dollars to burn the bones with the remains of a dog. Now, 55 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: how would they how would that happen? Well, he had cash, 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: he says, and they put it through the uh, the oven, 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: and came back with a mixture of ashes, supposedly from 58 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: Natalie and dog. Why didn't they stop him? The guy said, 59 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: this is you know John who's supposedly RAN's lover and friend. Well, 60 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: I don't I love that dog. I don't want anyone 61 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: to see him go in except me. So he gets 62 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: the ashes and then the story is he's supposed to 63 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: bury them for Uran and what happens from there? I 64 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: guess Gabriel can tell us more. Well, here's the gist 65 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: of it. A missing Alabama girl, Natalie Holloway, skeletal remains, 66 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: so believe, were mixed with those of a dead dog 67 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: and an effort to disguise that it was Natalie, then 68 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: taken to a crematory where a man paid two hundred 69 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: bucks to cremate to burn them so the ashes could 70 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: be scattered. Is it true? How did we get to 71 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: this point? Natalie's father has traveled all over the world, 72 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: including as far as Nicaragua, to help find his daughter, 73 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: and joining me right now the man at the center 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: of the search for Natalie many heiling him as a hero. Gabriel. 75 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: Now Gabriel. Back on August thirty, we had an episode 76 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: on Natalie Holloway, and in that episode I mistakenly idead 77 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: a person named Gabriel as the guy I had previously interviewed, 78 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: and I did the interview when you're in vander Salute, 79 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: the judge's son had been arrested in charge in the 80 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: murder of a second girl, Stephanie Tausiana Flores. Now I 81 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: made the mistake about thinking Gabriel was that personal interview before, 82 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: but he is not that person, and I really apologize. 83 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: Nobody's too big to say they were wrong. I apologize 84 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: for that confusion. And with me here today is the 85 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: real Gabriel, Not the Gabriel I confused, but the real 86 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: Gabriel who has really led Natalie's father to this point. 87 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: And Gabriel, I mean, I just want to say that 88 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: if you had not done this, we wouldn't have even 89 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: gotten this far. And whether it turns out to be 90 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: her remains or not, or some other woman's remains, what's 91 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: so stunning to me is that a Reuben. Authorities kept 92 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: saying it's not a person, it's not a person, it's 93 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: it's an animal. Well, our expert here in the US 94 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: says it is a young woman of Eastern European descent. 95 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder, Gabriel, what else the Auruban 96 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: of alorities are hiding. But that's put in the cart 97 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: before the horse. Start at the beginning, Gabriel, please tell 98 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: me your story. I met John Goodwook in two thousand thirteen, 99 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: and I met him through a friend I'm going to 100 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: head and gave him the chance. And one day he 101 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: was drunk. He goes, you know who Natalie and all 102 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: the ways. I go, yeah, I recall poor girl. He goes, oh, 103 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: I know more than anybody knows in the entire life. 104 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: I go, what do you mean? He goes, I was there. 105 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: Wait what he goes, I'm at Manaslud in two thousands tens. 106 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: That day he tells me, you know what, I think 107 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: that gruesome. So he starts showing me pictures and all 108 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: this and that of him in Vanaslud. And then that 109 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: day something in me said I can look the other way, 110 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: or I go and try to solve this. So something 111 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: came in me and and said I'm gonna do it. 112 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: Might not be easy, but I'm gonna do it. So 113 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: I befriend John and acted like his best friend. I mean, 114 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: I took him to every single placeful because I played poker. 115 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: I took him here, I took me there. I spent 116 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars to you know, make him my best 117 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: friends so he could open up to me. So by 118 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: a two thousand fifth team, he went ahead and opened up. 119 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean he completely opened up. He goes, you're my 120 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: best friend. And in two thousand fifteen, I tried to 121 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: call Beth Holloway. I mean I tried for three or 122 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: four months. I tried everything. I never got an answer. 123 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: So then I went ahead and called Dave Holloway and 124 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: I got an answer and I said Hi Dave, and 125 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: he goes yes. I said, look, I know a lot 126 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: of people have cry roll foot, but I haven't been 127 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: videos that you should be. You should look at. I'm 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: not asking for money, I just want you to look 129 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: I have. I'm a father to a daughter, so I know, uh, 130 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: if that happened to me, well you know you're pain. 131 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: So he comes to j Ward and he did. Ward 132 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: calls me. He comes to Venice, Florida and meet me, 133 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: and t J was blown away. He goes, oh my god, wow, 134 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: I mean DJ didn't know nothing. I go, t J, 135 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: why did you miss this? And back in two thousand 136 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: tens he made jokes the job bone is connected to 137 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: the room. I'm like, come on, you missed a lot 138 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: of information here. So he said, well, you know, I've 139 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: been working on this case and doesn't this and that? 140 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: So I didn't say nothing. Well, let me ask a question, Gabriel, 141 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: when you say they were blown away, what is it 142 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: that you knew that blew them away? That Young knew 143 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: exactly where he was carried? Young knew exactly how she 144 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: actually died. Well, did he tell you how she actually died? 145 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: He told me all this and confessions on video. I 146 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: mean I reported without well what did he say what happened? 147 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: It's part of the documentary and I can't say it. Okay, 148 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: I understand, Okay, go ahead. Then he said where it 149 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: comes to me and says Dave Holloway has put a 150 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: lot of money to this, and we got a chance 151 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: to do a documentary. Would you like to join them? 152 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: And I said sure, you know, why not? You know, 153 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: I help out. We we did a boat trip and uh, 154 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: I guess the laws didn't qualify there. So t J 155 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: said that he was gonna pay me, which he never 156 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: paid me for for my um on my expenses there. 157 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: So I said, it's okay, you know, I don't care. 158 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: So then we went to New Orleans and we did 159 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: desting operation and TJ at the time was pushing because 160 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: he wanted information right away, and I said, listen, he's 161 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: a name yac. You cannot push this guy. He will 162 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: close up, he will not say a word. You have 163 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: to just be calm and he will give you what 164 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: you want. But you have to relax and be calm. 165 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 1: So we didn't really get nowhere we I mean, he 166 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: told us that there that it wasn't at the fort anymore. 167 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: It was somewhere else at his aunt's house. You know. 168 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: I was like, what, what? Why did you like to me? 169 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: Wait a minute. The sting goes down in New Orleans 170 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: and it's recorded in a hotel room with hidden cameras 171 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: and audio with you talking with the guy who was 172 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: shown discussing his friendship with vandersl Loot, right, correct, And 173 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: so that goes down in New Orleans. Do you think 174 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: the guys telling the truth. He's got a person that 175 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: would say what putes But one clue he gave me, 176 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: he goes to every lie, there's the truth. You just 177 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: got to figure it out. From that day on, I 178 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: would put everything in my in my wall and what 179 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: makes sense of what did it? That's how I I 180 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: was able to find the bones. There's a lot of 181 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: twists and turns, but I don't want to talk about 182 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: about it. But if he gave, would have never put 183 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: his two cents into a lot of this, He would 184 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: have solved it earlier. It was very difficult, very aggravating working. 185 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: What do you make Gabriel of this claim that Natalie's 186 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: remains were mixed with a dog's remains to throw off authorities. 187 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: I can't. I cannot say anything because it's part of documentary. 188 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: The only thing I could tell you, guys is that 189 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: there's a lot of twigs in turns. One day that's 190 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: gonna say this, the other earned it something that said. 191 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: That was the only thing I could tell the guys 192 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: is put on your seatbelt, get on your hard hat, 193 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: because it's gonna be a wild roller coaster when you 194 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: guys see what I went through and everybody else went 195 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: through to solve this. Now, the second time we went 196 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: to a Ruba, everybody gave up, everybody because again DJ 197 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: went in and he got mad and demanded, and John 198 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: got pissed off and didn't do anything to attention. I 199 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: came back in April, it's out, nobody knowing, and I 200 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: told John that this thing, John, something happened, which is 201 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: part of the documentary. I cannot say something happened John. 202 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: He just came on and said, Okay, let's go. Let's 203 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: go to the same area where we were at, and 204 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna show you where is that. When John came 205 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: came and I said, look, John, listen, I'm broke now 206 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: because of you. But I'm gonna borrow his money so 207 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: we could go down there. What if you don't line 208 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: to me, I'm going to break every single in your 209 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: body and I'm gonna leave you down there. So as 210 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: soon as we landed, I gotta pass support. As soon 211 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: as we landed, we went to the hotel. I stripped 212 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: search to him. I mean he took all his clothes 213 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: because I want to make sure you have nothing. And 214 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: we went straight there. Okay, hold on just one moment, 215 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: guys with me. At the center of the controversy regarding 216 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: the missing Alabama tene, Natalie Holloway is the man that 217 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: has led her father to what many believe are the 218 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: remains of Natalie Holloway. And He's right, it's more twisted 219 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: than we ever imagined with allegations. Now that her remains 220 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: have been mixed with the remains of a dog and 221 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: buried to throw off authorities. With me also in addition 222 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: to Art, Patricia Cheryl McCollum, also with me the Duke 223 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: Alan Do Alan, what can you roll what we learned 224 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 1: on the Oxygen series the other night? Please, let's in 225 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: with day one with a sting operation behind us. It's 226 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: time to tell Dave where we are. Last night, John 227 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: changed her story. Originally he told Gabriel that he recovered 228 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: Natalie's remains from the National Forest, and now he claims 229 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: that's at a different location near his aunt's rental property. 230 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: He's already admitted that he was involved and moving Natalie's rennes. Okay, 231 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna let you see right from the horse's mouth, Okay. 232 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: I can take you to where I got the remains. 233 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: But it's not really in the National Park. It's up 234 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: at the top of a mountain, like not a mountain, 235 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: a really big hill there that's almost sick a mountain like. 236 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: Houses are going all the way up up this steep hill. 237 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: The road just eventually dead ends and it's like a 238 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: could sack, or you can turn around, but if you 239 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: walk past the cold sack, there's like a little path. 240 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: It takes you back into the desert where there's like 241 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: cactuses and brush you ease and like that, and the 242 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: second clearing of my squy trees to duck under, and 243 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: then you're gonna see a freaking opening and then you 244 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: can see a bunch of cactuses grouped together. That's where 245 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: she was. It was. It's actually only like probably ten 246 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: minute walk from my aunt's house, so it was never 247 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: a national part. It's never it's tenants sounds walking. John, 248 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: I think, is trying to throw Gabriel along because he's 249 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: changed the story. In addition to the man who many 250 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: are hailing as a hero, Gabriel who has led Natalie's 251 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: father this far, aren't Harris with me, Emmy Award winning 252 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: reporter Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Institute, Dr 253 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: Patricia Saunders, well known psychologists joining us out of New York, 254 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: and of course Alan Duke to you, Cheryl McCullum, way 255 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: in on this latest twist. I mean to think that 256 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: someone could be so diabolical, not only to kill a 257 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: young girl like this, but then to mix her remains 258 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: with a dog's to escape detection. I mean, what do 259 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: you make of the crime scene. Nancy, I am fascinated 260 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: by this news development. But my biggest question right now 261 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: is who at the crematory does not notice seven ribs. 262 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got two solds, you've got two pelvits. 263 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: Something would be very odd about that being dropt off 264 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: there to be cremated. And to you, Dr Patricia Saunders, 265 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm listening to Cheryl McCombs speak. But the mindset of 266 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: someone that cannot only kill a young girl but then 267 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: mix her remains with a dog's the mindset is that 268 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: of what I see is typical psychopaths. As a person 269 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: who is incapable of empathy and therefore has no conscience, 270 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: he could have mixed it with the cow or starts. 271 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: He was concerned he would just trying to hide his 272 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: crimes and act thinking he's smarter than everybody else. He 273 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: mixes it in with jog bones. You know, Art Harris 274 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: on this, tell me how this latest development occurred. First, Art, 275 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: listen to this. Did he ever tell you what actually, 276 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: like what actually happened to night that did like, you know, 277 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: to see Natalie dying there? I mean he told me 278 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: that freaking bad things that can happen to good people. 279 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: Sometimes you just got deal with it. You don't think 280 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: it was it was wrong with him trying to try 281 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: and to cause the situation. I had to deal with it, 282 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: and I had help to the hell who like who 283 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: helped him? Sad? Yeah, I've always had a suspicion that 284 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: policymander Sleep played a role in this police manor salute 285 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: matter statement nobody no case, which means that if they 286 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: can't find a body, then no one can be arrested 287 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: for the murder of that. How much involvement does he 288 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 1: have in this case to make that type of statement 289 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: nobody no case. So it made me think that he's very, 290 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: very confident that Natalie would not ever be recovered. So Art, 291 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: what do you make of it? Understanding is that his 292 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: best friend, this John who Gabriel so heroically lead to 293 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: confess or confide, goes to this crematory and he has 294 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: it god carcass, and he has Natalie's remains that he 295 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: has dug up, and he places the carcass over the 296 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: remains and insists on being there when it goes into 297 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: the oven, as it were. So he watches this whether 298 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: it's true or not. That's what he told Gabriel and 299 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: he takes this this bag of ashes, and what I'm 300 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: unclear about why didn't they take the ashes? If they 301 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: wanted to get rid of them and dump them at sea, 302 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: why would they go to the trouble of reburying them somewhere? 303 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: That is what my question would be. What do you 304 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: make of that, Cheryl, Nancy? If the bones were cremated, 305 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: what bones are they examining? Now? Yeah, good question. Back 306 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: out to Gabriel, who's at the central of all this. Gabriel, 307 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: what bones do you believe that they are examining? Because 308 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: it's been made very clear US expert is looking at 309 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: bones brought in from Aruba. So if something was cremated, 310 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: what is there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um, 311 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: he said many stories as were we were doing the 312 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: the the investigation. And Uh, I cannot say because there's 313 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: a twist to all this. It could be true, it 314 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: could be a lot. I but there's a twist to everything, 315 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: so I can't really. I have to keep you guys 316 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: in this question to you, Gabriel, from what you learned 317 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: through John, what have you learned about who is your Vanderslute? 318 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's a sociopath, 319 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: he's a populos, a liar. He basically thinks about himself 320 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: and if he could be on TV and be in 321 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: the spotlight, that's what he wants. What I have learned 322 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: from from John. How do you think he is holding 323 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: up now? Is he's still in connection in contact with 324 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: John because he's in Peru now, vanishlus in Peru. As 325 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: far as side, No, no, John has not. He said 326 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: the last time that John wrote him a letter was 327 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: back in two thousand, let's see twelve, and has not 328 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: written written to him since then, because I guess they 329 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that 330 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: you're in Vanderslute's father Paula is a Vanderslute, the judge 331 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: he was now dead, was covering up for his son. 332 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: Oh definitely. There is something else that does that the 333 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: not even a documentary people have of material that how 334 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: it came to be where Natalie was placed to h 335 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: her place to rest for the very first time? Where 336 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: was she at? And they don't even have the material. 337 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: I try to tell him, but they don't listen to me. Well, 338 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: where where was it? I cannot say it right now 339 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: due to my lawyer. I can't. I can't disclose that 340 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: right now. I understand, I understand, But this way, I'm 341 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: just gonna give you a little hint. Paula had a 342 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: best friend in Holland that had they had a property. 343 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: Paula's knew it very well, that property, very very well. 344 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: And that's all I can tell you for now. What 345 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: was it like to be working undercover wanting to crack 346 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly, Nancy Um, I'm not 347 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a cop, I'm not an investigator, 348 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and none of this God gave me the will and 349 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: it was very, very frustrating. It's like Um handling a 350 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: five year old childhood tantrums day by day. It was 351 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has I mean, 352 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: if you were locked in with him, you were fibly 353 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: strangling because there's no way. And I had to take 354 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: all that crap. I had to grow thick skin in 355 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: order to get the information I needed to solve this. 356 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: How long did it take you, Gabriel Um? Approximately almost 357 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: five years mm hmm. Because I started in slow to 358 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: get in him. Once I was in, and at the 359 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: end I pushed hard and I got what I wanted. 360 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,239 Speaker 1: I was almost there, almost there when everybody gave up 361 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: but me, and I said, no, no, I'm not gonna 362 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: let this go. I know he's there, and I know, 363 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: and something remarkable happened. And the second week of April 364 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: and I went back when everybody gave up, I went 365 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: back and it was exactly the spot where I kind 366 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: of had a general idea and everybody was blown the way. 367 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: The one that was blown away the most, which he 368 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember calling him 369 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes, you 370 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 1: gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells me 371 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: called Chief Urchinson. So I did, gives me the number. 372 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: I called him, and I said, I want to meet you. 373 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But 374 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: when I met him, he goes, you want to know something. 375 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: I go what He goes teaching work, called me to 376 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: put you in jail. I go for what he goes 377 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not 378 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: gonna do that. Can you take me where you where 379 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: you found remains? Like? Yes, So we go back there. 380 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: They checked their area out and then they leave and 381 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you 382 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: one thing. When we were outside the hotel, when they 383 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people. 384 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: They're like ke vichards asked him is this human? And 385 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There 386 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: was a piece of a skull and other pieces which 387 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to say. Question do you, Gabriel, are 388 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: you in fear in any way? Um? Four days ago, 389 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the morning, two men in black 390 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: came and tried to break in my house. At three 391 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. Um, I came out and I 392 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: didn't turn the lights on. They seen me and they 393 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: took off. I chased him. They got on the black 394 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: yr CD and left my My girlfriend is frightened at death, 395 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: but I'm not scared. I'm not. I'm like, bring your 396 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: body bags because it's gonna get believe and I have 397 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: not seen him since. You have a daughter, correct, Yes, 398 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: she is in California. They lived with her mother. Me 399 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: and her mom have been separated for nineteen years. Tell 400 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: me about your daughter. My daughter is twenty four years old. 401 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: She was going to school to be a poker dealer 402 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: because you know, I mean you you have a good 403 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: uh good future, you make good benefits and all that. 404 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: And when I was going to go the last time 405 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: to a Ruba, she wanted to tell me something and 406 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: she goes, how is it going? And I was kind 407 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: of depressed. He goes, Dad, don't give up. Dad, you 408 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: could do this. You go over there and you do 409 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: this because I know I believe in you. And then 410 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: I said, yeah, you're right, I have to. So I 411 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: borrowed money to go down to a Ruba. And because 412 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: like again I was, I was out of money and 413 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: my daughter dad day did not tell me she had 414 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: a tumor in her size of a small orange. She 415 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: did not tell me until a month later. I was broken. 416 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: I don't sleep right now. I mean, I'm I'm about 417 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: to lose. I don't know what you feel sorry for me, 418 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: but I'm about to lose my house where I'm at. 419 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: I haven't paid rent in three months to try to 420 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 1: help my daughter. It's hard, it's very hard. But you 421 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: know what, if it's all comes out to be Natalie Holloway, 422 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: or even if it's not, even if it's somebody else, 423 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: we to give closure to a family and my daughter. 424 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: She's hurting. But you know, I'm just I'm hoping for 425 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: America to help her out. I'm hoping for Americle. She 426 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: cries a lot, she's very scared. But you know, God 427 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: is not gonna let me down. He put me in 428 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: this mission, and I know when you try to follow God, 429 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: it's not easy. Not everybody could follow God. But he's 430 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: not gonna let me down. He's not. Gabriel, I have 431 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: been told you have a go fund Me page to 432 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: help your daughter. What is that? My go fundi page 433 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: is for my daughter. She has a tumor and it grew, 434 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: it's growing rapidly, and you know, she she she can't 435 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: really watch too much because she gets tired, and she's 436 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: very scared. And I've been trying. I can't come up 437 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: with the money. I'm trying really really hard. So I 438 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: did to go fund me to see if people will 439 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: help me so I could get this disease out of 440 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: my daughter and then she needs reconstruction surgery right after that. 441 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: What is your go fund me page, Gabriel? What is 442 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: your go fund to me page? You could just go 443 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: to uh Gabriel Madrigal on my Facebook and you will 444 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: find it there. That's magical. In mother A d R 445 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: I G A L. Correct, you're the first words for 446 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: the first person, Nancy, that especially correctly. Gabriel Madrigal Facebook 447 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: and then you can find his go fund me page 448 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: to help pay for his daughter's surgery. Wow, you know 449 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: what you've been living through? Hell? Man, living through hell. 450 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: I have nobody, nobody can understand my troubles. I know 451 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: what Dave has went through. I mean, I can't compare. 452 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: But you know, it's really hard when when you have 453 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: a sick child and basically your hands are tied behind 454 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: your back. I'm in Florida, she's in California, and she 455 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: will you know, she's scared to go to a doctor 456 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: because she's a baby, a daddy's girl, and wants me 457 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: by her side. You know, And it's really really frustrating. 458 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: It's really really hard, you know, this whole case. Yeah, 459 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: it kills me. But you know what is going to 460 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: be worth it at the end. And God is not 461 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: gonna let me. God is gonna make a miracle for 462 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: my daughter. God is gonna make a miracle for me. 463 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: But you know till then, you know, I just have 464 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: to keep having faith that's all. Let's yeah, I just 465 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: wanted to tell Gabriel luck to lose his hope. I 466 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: recently lost my son and what gives me satisfaction and 467 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: horrific story is that you're in is sitting up in 468 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: the mountains somewhere and a horrible prison in Peru and 469 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: will best the next twenty something. Yes, m, that's right. 470 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: Let's all prayer to God at all. You know they 471 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: all pay for what they have done. Question to you, Gabriel, 472 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: why do you believe a Reuben? Authorities are so insistent 473 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: that this these are not human remains? Why do they 474 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: keep saying that? Well, they said why because they got 475 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: too much to hide For one Vanish salute, Uh Godfather. 476 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: He was somebody, you know, a big top official. So 477 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: just think about it. Paula's is it's an official there too. 478 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: Vneus Godfather's an official. So you know, they just want 479 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: to get it. They wanted to put it under the carpet, 480 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: and you know, let's just forget about this. All those 481 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: people helped Vanta suit and Paula's not and to get 482 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: rid of e A as you name it. They're guilty, 483 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: They're very very guilty. And I don't understand why they're 484 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: doing that to their own people. I just don't get it. 485 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: They should just come to people on the island. What 486 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: did they think happen to Natalie? They think they honestly, 487 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: they all say that that Venus killed her and Paulas 488 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: That's what they all say. What I was there and 489 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: that that they you know, they feel ashamed that the 490 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: room authorities are doing that to their own people, which 491 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: is not right. They need to come clean first. You say, hey, listen, 492 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: here are bones and their animal bones. The person takes them, 493 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: brings them to the years. The biggest mistake is they 494 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: did not declare them. I don't care if it's animal bones. 495 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: You declare them. And then and then once they prag 496 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: them over here and did the test, they were they 497 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: were still doubts that they were not gonna do tests. 498 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: But they do the test and then they turn out 499 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: to be human. I knew in my heart is Natalie. 500 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: Why I say this, Nancy, because John declares it too 501 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: well from height from everything, there's some disgusting parts I 502 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: cannot say. It is part of the documentary. It's gonna 503 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: keep you guys into spense. Now it doesn't benefit me 504 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: saying anything about, you know, watch the show, this and 505 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: this map eight. I didn't get paid a dime. I 506 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: did this out of my bar of my heart because 507 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: I have daughters. I did not receive a penny on 508 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: none of this. I didn't. I don't have a contract 509 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: with them either. Speaking of the series, take a listen 510 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: to this now. On this section of tape, John is 511 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: sharing his admiration or your own. So when you met Vanasoul, 512 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: what did you talk to say? Damn, he's famous. I've 513 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: always attempted this guy because I always thought it was cool, 514 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: just the way he acted on the news and to 515 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: me like it's oh, it's so Smell's so cocky and 516 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: I loved him for that. I was like, oh, yeah, 517 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,959 Speaker 1: I love that he's cocky and he knows he guy 518 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: the way with it and he's enamored with yarn bannerslup 519 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: yond life is the guy. And I don't know why 520 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: Patricia Saunders, after all he has been through for all 521 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: of these years. What will it do to Dave Holloway 522 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: if it turns out that this is not Natalie Holloway. 523 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: I think Dave is a man of courage and determination. 524 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: The best antidote to grief is action, and he has 525 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: been doing that for more than fifteen years. I think 526 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: he will continue his quest to find the doors remain. 527 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: If he gives up, now he's opening himself up to 528 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: an accumulation of traumatic grief. I don't think he's that 529 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: kind of guy, Doctor Saunders, What will it do to 530 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: Dave Holloway if this if this turns out to be 531 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: Natalie Holloway's remains his daughter? I think it would be 532 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: a mixture of relief and grief. For the business such 533 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: things closure, especially when when a child is murdered, but 534 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: there's some sense of being grounded that you have something 535 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: to bury, that you can have a headstone the cemetery. 536 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: I think she would be would have been relieved, and 537 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: I said, think it would have opened the doors for 538 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: her beginning to deal with her traumatically. Yeah, Sheryl McCollum. 539 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: When you're listening to Gabriel talk and he's talking about 540 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: the specific location that it is a set of female bones, 541 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: you know this is your expertise, your cold case expert. 542 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: I'd like you to analyze what you're hearing. Nancy. What 543 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm hearing is they take a body and they move 544 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: it from the beach to a place and they bury it. 545 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: Then they get another person to dig her up and 546 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: move her again. And now you've got some idy that 547 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: keeps running their mouths saying, hey, you know this is her, 548 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: and you're gonna be able to find it, and you're 549 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: gonna be able to go broke looking for her. And 550 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: now they described they added dog bones, then they cremated her. 551 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: Then they say no, no, she's in burlap. Nancy. It 552 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: sounds so far fetched to me that men are normally 553 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: a to b in the way they dispose the body. 554 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: And if you're on the beach and the Atlantic Ocean 555 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,479 Speaker 1: is right there, that's where you put her and hide her. 556 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: But Gabriel wants me to understand and believe that how 557 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: was told your hand. No, you stay right there with 558 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: a dead body while I go back and get a 559 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: burlap sack to break their legs and put her in it. 560 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: And then we're gonna put a cactus over like that's 561 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: gonna hide something like you know, other animals aren't gonna 562 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: dig at that and perhaps unearth her themselves. None of 563 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: this rings true for me. I wanted to I want 564 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: this for Dave and Best so bad, But I need 565 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: a lot more answers before I buy this. You know, 566 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: that is kind of our story, Gabriel, that they would 567 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: put her hot I guess, bury her at a location 568 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,439 Speaker 1: where there was a cactus. Is that how it went Art? 569 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: Art Harris that she was buried by a cactus, Nancy. 570 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: Apparently the way it went down, they took two They 571 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: took the body to this spot that Paulus, the judge 572 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: directed them, and they dug it up and at the 573 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: last minute he said, let's mark the spot with a 574 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: cactus so we know where it is, And so they 575 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: grabbed a cactus nearby plopped it on top, and that 576 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: was the last of that chapter. Then what then They 577 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: later come back and this friend of Gabriel's, John was 578 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: paid to help your an fetch the body and move it. 579 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: And that is apparently when they took it to the crematory, 580 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: mixed it with a dog and got the ashes combined. 581 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: I'm at a loss as to what happened after that, Art. 582 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: What I don't understand is this, If her body was 583 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: in its natural form when it was buried under the cactus, 584 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: and then it was taken and cremated, mixed with a 585 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: dog and cremated. What are the bones that they are 586 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 1: now scrutinizing. What are those bones? Aren't Harris, Nancy? That 587 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: is the big question. How would you have anything left 588 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: over after you ran her remains and the supposed dog 589 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: carcass through this oven and mixed them. So, you know, 590 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: I don't know that if Gabriel can answer that, maybe 591 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: this is a twist and turn we haven't expected. But 592 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: but if you don't have anything hard, any cartilage, any 593 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: bone to analyze other than ashes, I don't know that 594 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: that's possible. Nancy. Now hold on, let's think this through. 595 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: And I've said this many many times. I learned it 596 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: from a senior judge I practiced in front of There's 597 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: a way many times to make all witnesses speak the 598 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: truth and imputing perjury on no one. In other words, 599 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: this all may be true. She may have been buried 600 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: under a cactus and those bones removed and buried somewhere else, 601 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: hence the discovery of bones. This crematory story maybe totally wrong, 602 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: or the crematory story itself may be true. It's got 603 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: to be one or the other. But I know this, Gabriel. 604 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: According to Dave Holloway and the US medical doctor expert. 605 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: Human remains were found and the doctor is analyzing them 606 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: and extracting DNA from them. They are human remains belonging 607 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: to a female. So, Gabriel, how does it work? How 608 00:36:54,080 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: could there be bones and this cremation story. Well, Nancy, 609 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: it's very simple. If you cream me something, you're not 610 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 1: gonna have bones. So the other option is it never 611 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: got created. That is simple answer, but it's part of 612 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: the documentary. I cannot says it's a big twist. I 613 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: hear you. I mean they That's what I was just saying, 614 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: and you said it very succinctly. They can't both be true. 615 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: Someone may have been mixed with a dog at a crematory, 616 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: bones may have been taken and moved, but they can't 617 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: be the same thing. Nancy, Could I add something? Yeah? 618 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: I would like to play a clip now of the 619 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: voice stress analyzer that t. J. Ward has that he 620 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: put John's explanation through. They in this clip listened to 621 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: John explaining the crematory and the dog scenario. Let's hear 622 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: what their expert analysis of the truthfulness of that statement is. Yeah, 623 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 1: let's listen. We're going to do an analysis on John 624 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: and Gabriel's conversation and try to confirm some of the 625 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: information that was communicated in the last couple of days 626 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: to be true or not true. We're going to run 627 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: the audio of the perpetrator through the layered voice analysis 628 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: and see how it comes back as far as how 629 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: truthful he's being after changing his story. Okay, are you 630 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: keyed up on the segment we want to try. We're 631 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: ready to go. Okay, it wasn't. It wasn't in a 632 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: national park. So these two snippets together we have highly 633 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: stressed in truth. He's smart enough to know he's describing 634 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: himself committing a crime. When you're looking at these, you 635 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: can't look at any individual snippet by itself. You're looking 636 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: at what's around it. You're looking at the numbers, You're 637 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: looking at what's being said here. And I think he's 638 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: telling the truth here almost entirely. Uh, that it's not 639 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: in the national forest, and that he's uh, it's going 640 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: to be somewhere close to his aunt's house. My instincts 641 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: all along, just from watching the interview and listening what 642 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: the perpetrator had to say. It was my belief that 643 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: he was being truthful, that this new location was the 644 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: actual location. And now that we're able to confirm with 645 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: the voice analysis some of the information that we were 646 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: in question, well I feel good about it. Moving on 647 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: to the next relevant section. He's talking about at the 648 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: crematory and that how vander Sleut knew that he could 649 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: get the cremation done without um anybody looking in the box. 650 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: He knew he could get it done and paid him 651 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: under the table money. Vander Sleut knew the family and 652 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 1: again this shows up as inaccuracy. Again the table money 653 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: because it was fine. We see a high tension, bad feelings, 654 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: medium risk inaccuracies. There's definitely some thing more here to 655 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: explore that he's holding back about the crematory. Out to 656 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,399 Speaker 1: Art Harris, Art Nancy, one of my questions has given 657 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: the the dark heart of anyone who has friends with 658 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: your in vander salute and thinking like a criminal and 659 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: a con man. What would keep him from perhaps taking 660 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: some of the bones and burying them somewhere else so 661 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: he could find them later in some sort of leverage 662 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: or shakedown deal. I haven't even thought that far, but 663 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, Gabriel, with all the cases that I've tried 664 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: and literally in excess of ten thousand cases that I 665 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:46,439 Speaker 1: have either investigated orchestrated guilty, please or tried. I tried. 666 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: When I'm confused, I go back to what I know. Okay, Gabriel, 667 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: this is what I know, and this is what I'm 668 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: hearing from you, and I really appreciate you being with 669 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: us today. Just wants you to know that I know this. 670 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: I know that I know Dave Holloway. I know that 671 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: he loved Natalie more than anything. This is not some 672 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: kind of a stunt for Dave Holloway. I don't believe that. 673 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: And Dave Holloway and this very well known US doctor 674 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: say it is human bones, and the doctor says it's 675 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: female Eastern European bones. So was that Natalie that went 676 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: through a crematory? And these are somebody else's bones? Maybe? 677 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: Are these Natalie's bones? Maybe? But I do know both 678 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: can't be true. And I believe Holloway and I believe 679 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:48,800 Speaker 1: that US doctor that they've got bones, and you stated 680 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: it very clearly. Let me ask you this, What were 681 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: your impressions, Gabriel, of Dave Holloway, Because I like him 682 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: a lot. My impression is Dave Holloway. I seen him 683 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 1: broken man. I see a man that has suffered for years. 684 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: I've seen a man that is desperately um asking for questions. 685 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: He wants to find her. All he wants is closure. 686 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: And that day, that day I met him, I I 687 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: you know, I said, you know, I'm not gonna quit. 688 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna quit. I Am going to find her. 689 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: And I know in my heart I did. I know 690 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: in my heart I did, because I have videos and 691 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: that recorded in my house before I went to a 692 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: Rubat that I knew I was gonna it was gonna happen. 693 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: And I know in my heart as her I don't 694 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: know why, I have a strong feeling because I didn't 695 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: come this far for nothing, and I want to give 696 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: Dave Holloway and Beth closure so they could bring their 697 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: baby home. There's a big old twist to this. Now, 698 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: the gentleman that was just saying about if there's more parts, 699 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,800 Speaker 1: I cannot say. That's a big twist to this story. 700 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: Not even t J knows about this. I'm the only one. 701 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: The FBI is the one that knows. I'm not gonna 702 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: share information when people that treat me like trash. No, 703 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: I'm not. Now does the documentary people know. Uh, yes 704 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: they do. But I'm just gonna leave it at that. There. 705 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: This thing is full of twists and turns, and that 706 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: two liars try to get away with it. But if God, 707 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: if God is good, he's gonna give us what we want, 708 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: that is Natalie, And we could somehow pray to God 709 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: that they could charge these guys. And I'm afraid they're not. 710 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm afraid they're gonna walk away free, all right, Harris 711 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: swaying Nancy. The fact that he just mentioned FBI gives 712 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: me a little hope because if you remember, your end 713 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: was also under indictment fortune aching down man Natalie's mother 714 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: for twenty dollars, which is hanging over his head should 715 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: he ever come back and be tried for murder. So 716 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 1: until now there has been no way to get the 717 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: FBI into a murder case because they have jurisdiction of 718 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: American citizens who die overseas. But if this suddenly has 719 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: gotten them back in to the case, that gives me hope. 720 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: This is what it boils down to. From me. As 721 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: I was listening to Gabriel talk about Dave Holloway calling 722 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 1: him a broken man, I was just thinking, as I 723 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: was listening to Gabriel talk. Everybody on the program right 724 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 1: now has had a severe loss, a severe loss to 725 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: think about losing your child. You know, I thought I 726 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: knew all about pain When my fiancee was murdered, we 727 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: in my dad passed away just recently. I did not 728 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: think I could put one ft in front of the other. 729 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: He had always been kind of my soul mate, my 730 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 1: dad Mac to think of one day you just simply 731 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: never see your child again, and you play over and 732 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: over in your mind that last time you saw them. 733 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: That is the hell that Dave, Holloway and Beth have 734 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: been living in all this time. And Gabriel, whatever the 735 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: results are, you have moved this case forward. And I'm 736 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:53,919 Speaker 1: so grateful to you. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off 737 00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: goodbye friends. One