Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal. Today. We have
Speaker 1: another bonus episode.
Speaker 2: Now that season five is over, I wanted to get
Speaker 2: the whole team together, our producers, our editors, to talk
Speaker 2: about how the season came to be and all of
Speaker 2: the moments that stuck with us along the way.
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Hi everybody.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 2: We did this last year where after we released season four,
Speaker 2: we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments,
Speaker 2: what it was like producing the season, and I thought
Speaker 2: that it would be kind of fun to do it again.
Speaker 2: Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone
Speaker 2: introduced themselves and tell a little bit about how you
Speaker 2: worked on the show.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Sure, Hi.
Speaker 4: I'm Caitlin Golden and I helped to produce this season.
Speaker 5: Hi.
Speaker 6: I am Kerrie Hartman, also a producer.
Speaker 7: I'm monikle Boord. I'm the story editor on the last
Speaker 7: two seasons of Betrayal.
Speaker 5: Mettl Vickiu I am a sound engineer on Betrayal.
Speaker 3: And I'm Tanner Robbins. I am one of the audio editors.
Speaker 2: I think a really great place to start is how
Speaker 2: we found the story in the first place.
Speaker 1: I think this question goes to Caitlin.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about how this
Speaker 2: season and how Saskia's story came to be.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I started at Glass about two years ago as
Speaker 4: an associate producer when Carrie and Moe were running production
Speaker 4: on Betrayal, and one of my big jobs was going
Speaker 4: through the email inbox where people you know, write in
Speaker 4: with their thoughts about the show, but also kind of
Speaker 4: most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of Betrayal.
Speaker 4: So Saskia, she sent an email September twenty twenty four,
Speaker 4: which is the same month that Giselle Pelico went to
Speaker 4: trial for the rape case of her husband.
Speaker 1: I actually pulled up.
Speaker 7: Her initial email. I want to read it.
Speaker 1: It's pretty short. She said.
Speaker 7: Hello, I live in Maryland and I was married to
Speaker 7: hold for It, the man of my dreams. Everyone thought
Speaker 7: he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up he
Speaker 7: was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious,
Speaker 7: night after night, and broadcasting this to strangers on a
Speaker 7: widespread scale, in between being the perfect husband, father and stepfather.
Speaker 7: Things only got worse when I found out what he
Speaker 7: was doing and we went through a legal battle. Quote
Speaker 7: raping your wife end quote Apparently was not a crime
Speaker 7: in Maryland, so we had to have police contact tech
Speaker 7: experts in these camming websites to get the footage for Court.
Speaker 7: I would really like to tell my story. I can
Speaker 7: so relate to these women that I am watching on
Speaker 7: your show. Let me know if someone can contact me.
Speaker 7: I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji,
Speaker 7: thank you, Saskia. So yeah, it's taken a year and
Speaker 7: a half to get here where the story's officially out
Speaker 7: and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort, dur.
Speaker 7: I'm curious when you go back to the moment that
Speaker 7: you were like, this needs to be a season as
Speaker 7: opposed to a single episode. Is there something that stands
Speaker 7: out for you, a scene in your mind where you
Speaker 7: first really remember connecting to the story.
Speaker 2: I think for me, the fact that he could watch
Speaker 2: this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up
Speaker 2: on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy,
Speaker 2: feel like she is just now destined to walk the
Speaker 2: same path as her father who struggled with mental health,
Speaker 2: and to know that you were doing something in the
Speaker 2: dark that could contribute to that is just.
Speaker 1: So cruel to me.
Speaker 2: That's why I thought this was a really good season,
Speaker 2: like the two things that were happening light a day
Speaker 2: and in the darkness.
Speaker 6: One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of
Speaker 6: Betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors. They're acting
Speaker 6: out the part of a loving husband or a great
Speaker 6: step father, but they're really actors, and once you accept
Speaker 6: and understand that, it's easier to see that all of
Speaker 6: it it's like a giant fraud.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The other aspect of the story that I just was like,
Speaker 2: from an emotional point of view, I think I've always
Speaker 2: really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim
Speaker 2: because I feel like we just really default to this
Speaker 2: understanding of righteous rape that the only person that's worthy
Speaker 2: of saying I had this crime of rape done to
Speaker 2: me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the
Speaker 2: street and this happened. Zaskia's story kind of defies that archetype,
Speaker 2: but it still doesn't change what happened to her, and
Speaker 2: so it allowed us to really examine that myth in
Speaker 2: a really big way, not just through the criminal.
Speaker 1: Trial, but really the divorce trial.
Speaker 2: So for that reason, I feel like That's why I
Speaker 2: really wanted to make this season totally what about you.
Speaker 4: I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the
Speaker 4: story and then all of a sudden, she gets to
Speaker 4: the point in her story where he only gets eighteen
Speaker 4: months in jail, and she says, this was completely legal
Speaker 4: in my state, and I was like, wait, what, how
Speaker 4: in the world.
Speaker 5: I think that was the thing that surprised me and
Speaker 5: shocked me the most this season was the fact that
Speaker 5: that law was on the books at the time. Was
Speaker 5: just it really hit me a little bit because I
Speaker 5: don't understand how that could even be.
Speaker 2: Tanner, you knew nothing going into the season about the
Speaker 2: story and the creative You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin
Speaker 2: and learning as you go.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode
Speaker 3: when it's ready to go into the edit.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me what it was like working on
Speaker 2: this season, what moment most surprised you, and what do
Speaker 2: you feel like was the most impactful.
Speaker 3: What shocked me maybe the most in the story was
Speaker 3: a quote from the perpetrator, Mike. I think it was
Speaker 3: during the divorce trial that he didn't believe in his
Speaker 3: heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with
Speaker 3: his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was
Speaker 3: doing if he was not raping her, what did he
Speaker 3: think that was? That was what was most shocking to me,
Speaker 3: even after admitting to committing this crime. Then go to
Speaker 3: a different court and say the exact opposite.
Speaker 2: There is an entitlement there that exists in our society.
Speaker 2: Whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland,
Speaker 2: he already felt entitled to her body in a way
Speaker 2: however he wanted it. And then there are laws that
Speaker 2: exist in the.
Speaker 1: State in which he lives with his.
Speaker 2: Wife that in Bolden and validate that entitlement. Those two
Speaker 2: things I think have been interconnected and working for each
Speaker 2: other since the creation of this country.
Speaker 5: That was kind of hand in hand to The most
Speaker 5: impactful thing is that this case and other cases that
Speaker 5: have come on recently have helped change these laws, and
Speaker 5: these laws are changing, and I think it's good to
Speaker 5: see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some
Speaker 5: of this.
Speaker 2: We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like?
Speaker 2: Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you
Speaker 2: deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction.
Speaker 2: What can I do to repair, do less harm and
Speaker 2: own up to my mistakes? And when you look at
Speaker 2: how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands
Speaker 2: that they've done something wrong understands the impact of their
Speaker 2: behavior and actions towards another person would say, you know what,
Speaker 2: no fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you.
Speaker 2: Let me do as little harm in this process to Saskia.
Speaker 1: That would be the right thing to do. He did
Speaker 1: not do that.
Speaker 2: As much as it is to tell Sasti's story, we
Speaker 2: are in a way telling the Mike Levin good story
Speaker 2: of what he did to his wife.
Speaker 1: And I'm a human being.
Speaker 2: I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild,
Speaker 2: but I also think about the fact of, like, what
Speaker 2: has this person done to restore and help support Saskia.
Speaker 7: This is something Kerry and I have been talking about.
Speaker 7: So Carrie had produced seasons one through four, and when
Speaker 7: this season came around, Carrie actually stepped out to produce
Speaker 7: another show at Glass Burden of Guilt and that is
Speaker 7: a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it.
Speaker 7: The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make amends
Speaker 7: for something hateous that he did in his past. And
Speaker 7: there's something Karrien, I've been talking about here with season
Speaker 7: five of Betrayal with Oskia story, because like, we don't
Speaker 7: set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to
Speaker 7: report the story. Survivors come to us, right to us,
Speaker 7: and we work with them. But if there was genuinely
Speaker 7: an effort that Mike leven Good had made to acknowledge
Speaker 7: the harm he had done to make amends, you know,
Speaker 7: and he did plead guilty, like he had the opportunity
Speaker 7: to use that to make a statement to her to
Speaker 7: not put her through the divorce trial she did, and
Speaker 7: like you were saying, Andrea, like he did not take
Speaker 7: those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc
Speaker 7: because it isn't there, and it's disappointing.
Speaker 4: Honestly, I think the thing that makes this season different
Speaker 4: in terms of that amends and accountability piece is that
Speaker 4: we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to
Speaker 4: make an entire career off of his criminal past. And
Speaker 4: to me, the most shocking take of the entire season
Speaker 4: comes at the end of episode nine, where you hear
Speaker 4: Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levinngood and I
Speaker 4: was in the room for that call, so I remember
Speaker 4: it very well. And Trey gets on the line tells
Speaker 4: Mike that we want to tell this story about his
Speaker 4: business and about his relationship with Saska Inwood, And the
Speaker 4: tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking, like you
Speaker 4: could tell he really did not see the connection between
Speaker 4: what he did to Saskia and what he is doing
Speaker 4: in his business now. It's like he has had to
Speaker 4: sever something in his mind in order to move forward
Speaker 4: with his life, and that's a privilege that Saskia will
Speaker 4: never be afforded.
Speaker 2: I'm so curious. This goes to the editors. What is
Speaker 2: your favorite episode of the season and why.
Speaker 3: The courtroom the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I
Speaker 3: love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear
Speaker 3: somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it
Speaker 3: happening in real time and hearing the judge see through
Speaker 3: Mike's liies. You know, when you hear defense attorneys and
Speaker 3: witnesses saying all these things that you know are not
Speaker 3: true or just being spun in this way, and then
Speaker 3: to hear the person with the power see through it
Speaker 3: and make the right decision. It's just so satisfying.
Speaker 5: Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do
Speaker 5: second a lot of what you said, Danner. It's always
Speaker 5: refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody
Speaker 5: who just thinks that he's flying pretty it feels like
Speaker 5: a good moment. Whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually,
Speaker 5: you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And sometimes you can have all the evidence, the videos,
Speaker 2: the photos, and it's still it may not be enough.
Speaker 1: But in this case, the judge really saw. And I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful, Carrie. I was going to ask you, you know, having.
Speaker 4: Worked on this show in every iteration of it, having
Speaker 4: worked with so many different subjects, what to you really
Speaker 4: resonated this season.
Speaker 6: I think we knew even before the Giselle Pelico story
Speaker 6: came out this kind of crime is a trend. It's underreported,
Speaker 6: and it's probably underreported because people are too shamefilled to
Speaker 6: report it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's under prosecuted.
Speaker 6: I really feel good when we are bringing things to
Speaker 6: the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by
Speaker 6: a good portion of the public. Because you never know
Speaker 6: when one of our audience members might be wake up
Speaker 6: with the morning unsure of what happened the night before,
Speaker 6: or feeling odd, And it's just information an education that
Speaker 6: it's okay to question.
Speaker 4: Totally, and I mean with the idea that this is
Speaker 4: a trend for me. One of the most impactful parts
Speaker 4: of this season was talking to all of these other
Speaker 4: women who had experienced this crime. We did also include
Speaker 4: these stories of Natalie, Ember and Stephanie, and watching the
Speaker 4: three of them in their progression and their healing journey
Speaker 4: has been really impactful too. I mean, Drey and I
Speaker 4: talk all the time about Natalie in particular. She'd never
Speaker 4: heard of a story like her own until she heard
Speaker 4: Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal Weekly, and when I first got
Speaker 4: on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous, and
Speaker 4: over the course of many, many months, we had lots
Speaker 4: of conversations back and forth about do you want to
Speaker 4: tell your story now, is later down the line a
Speaker 4: better time? What level of anonymity do we want to use?
Speaker 4: She eventually felt comfortable, and when we had that round
Speaker 4: table conversation with all of these other survivors, it was
Speaker 4: like a different woman was in that room, like or
Speaker 4: hope as a show is always that the people that
Speaker 4: we're working with we are able to impact their lives
Speaker 4: in some little way, that by helping them tell their story,
Speaker 4: we are helping them on their healing journey. But I
Speaker 4: think that was one of the first times where I,
Speaker 4: as someone who's really new to this field, saw right
Speaker 4: before my eyes.
Speaker 1: Like this is someone who's transformed.
Speaker 4: There was just a brightness in her face that made
Speaker 4: me incredibly emotional.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing is realizing that you're not alone.
Speaker 2: I felt that way when I was listening to the
Speaker 2: bonus episode with.
Speaker 1: The case updates.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie
Speaker 2: at the very end spoilers if anyone hasn't listened to
Speaker 2: that bonus episode, it's an update on.
Speaker 1: Mber, Natalie and Stephanie.
Speaker 2: And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she
Speaker 2: was wearing baggy clothes, she chopped off all of her hair,
Speaker 2: she couldn't even look in the mirror, and she is
Speaker 2: just now reclaiming her body and that's the work that
Speaker 2: she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her
Speaker 2: two years ago. It's astonishing to see what she's done
Speaker 2: in the work that she's put in and how she
Speaker 2: came out on the other side.
Speaker 1: It's cool.
Speaker 7: It's really cool when people ask, which they often do. Oh,
Speaker 7: it must be so hard to work on stories like this.
Speaker 7: The antidote for me is really getting to see the
Speaker 7: healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making,
Speaker 7: and to see that the telling of their story was
Speaker 7: helpful and that is actually more impactful for me in
Speaker 7: the end than the worst part of their story.
Speaker 1: That we hear.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you all for your hard work this season.
Speaker 2: It was a difficult season to produce. It was an
Speaker 2: emotional one to produce, and you know, we deal with
Speaker 2: really tough subject matter. But I'm really proud of the
Speaker 2: season and I'm proud of everyone's work on it, and
Speaker 2: so thank you. For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN
Speaker 2: dot org slash betrayal. That's our ai n N dot
Speaker 2: org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential twenty
Speaker 2: four seven support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just
Speaker 2: text Hope to six four six seven three or call
Speaker 2: one eight hundred sixty five six Hope you are not alone.
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your story, email us
Speaker 2: at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That is Betrayal Pod
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. Or follow us on Instagram at
Speaker 2: betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with
Speaker 2: the Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack
Speaker 2: dot com.
Speaker 1: We're grateful for your support.
Speaker 2: One way to show support is by subscribing to our
Speaker 2: show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and
Speaker 2: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A
Speaker 2: big thank you to all of our listeners.
Speaker 1: Betrayal is the.
Speaker 2: Production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,
Speaker 2: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced
Speaker 2: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by
Speaker 2: me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our
Speaker 2: supervising producer is Kerrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique
Speaker 2: le Board. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are
Speaker 2: Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melciri.
Speaker 2: Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali
Speaker 2: Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with
Speaker 2: additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia,
Speaker 2: her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson
Speaker 2: and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Bains.
Speaker 2: Music library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 2: you get your podcasts