WEBVTT - The Making of Season 5 | BONUS

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal. Today. We have

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<v Speaker 1>another bonus episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that season five is over, I wanted to get

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<v Speaker 2>the whole team together, our producers, our editors, to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about how the season came to be and all of

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<v Speaker 2>the moments that stuck with us along the way.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's our conversation. Hi everybody.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi.

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<v Speaker 4>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>We did this last year where after we released season four,

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<v Speaker 2>we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments,

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<v Speaker 2>what it was like producing the season, and I thought

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<v Speaker 2>that it would be kind of fun to do it again.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone

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<v Speaker 2>introduced themselves and tell a little bit about how you

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<v Speaker 2>worked on the show.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>Sure, Hi.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Caitlin Golden and I helped to produce this season.

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<v Speaker 5>Hi.

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<v Speaker 6>I am Kerrie Hartman, also a producer.

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<v Speaker 7>I'm monikle Boord. I'm the story editor on the last

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<v Speaker 7>two seasons of Betrayal.

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<v Speaker 5>Mettl Vickiu I am a sound engineer on Betrayal.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm Tanner Robbins. I am one of the audio editors.

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<v Speaker 2>I think a really great place to start is how

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<v Speaker 2>we found the story in the first place.

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<v Speaker 1>I think this question goes to Caitlin.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell us a little bit about how this

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<v Speaker 2>season and how Saskia's story came to be.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I started at Glass about two years ago as

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<v Speaker 4>an associate producer when Carrie and Moe were running production

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<v Speaker 4>on Betrayal, and one of my big jobs was going

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<v Speaker 4>through the email inbox where people you know, write in

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<v Speaker 4>with their thoughts about the show, but also kind of

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<v Speaker 4>most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of Betrayal.

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<v Speaker 4>So Saskia, she sent an email September twenty twenty four,

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<v Speaker 4>which is the same month that Giselle Pelico went to

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<v Speaker 4>trial for the rape case of her husband.

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<v Speaker 1>I actually pulled up.

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<v Speaker 7>Her initial email. I want to read it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's pretty short. She said.

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<v Speaker 7>Hello, I live in Maryland and I was married to

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<v Speaker 7>hold for It, the man of my dreams. Everyone thought

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<v Speaker 7>he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up he

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<v Speaker 7>was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious,

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<v Speaker 7>night after night, and broadcasting this to strangers on a

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<v Speaker 7>widespread scale, in between being the perfect husband, father and stepfather.

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<v Speaker 7>Things only got worse when I found out what he

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<v Speaker 7>was doing and we went through a legal battle. Quote

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<v Speaker 7>raping your wife end quote Apparently was not a crime

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<v Speaker 7>in Maryland, so we had to have police contact tech

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<v Speaker 7>experts in these camming websites to get the footage for Court.

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<v Speaker 7>I would really like to tell my story. I can

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<v Speaker 7>so relate to these women that I am watching on

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<v Speaker 7>your show. Let me know if someone can contact me.

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<v Speaker 7>I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji,

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<v Speaker 7>thank you, Saskia. So yeah, it's taken a year and

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<v Speaker 7>a half to get here where the story's officially out

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<v Speaker 7>and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort, dur.

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<v Speaker 7>I'm curious when you go back to the moment that

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<v Speaker 7>you were like, this needs to be a season as

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<v Speaker 7>opposed to a single episode. Is there something that stands

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<v Speaker 7>out for you, a scene in your mind where you

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<v Speaker 7>first really remember connecting to the story.

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<v Speaker 2>I think for me, the fact that he could watch

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<v Speaker 2>this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up

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<v Speaker 2>on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy,

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<v Speaker 2>feel like she is just now destined to walk the

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<v Speaker 2>same path as her father who struggled with mental health,

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<v Speaker 2>and to know that you were doing something in the

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<v Speaker 2>dark that could contribute to that is just.

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<v Speaker 1>So cruel to me.

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<v Speaker 2>That's why I thought this was a really good season,

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<v Speaker 2>like the two things that were happening light a day

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<v Speaker 2>and in the darkness.

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<v Speaker 6>One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of

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<v Speaker 6>Betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors. They're acting

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<v Speaker 6>out the part of a loving husband or a great

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<v Speaker 6>step father, but they're really actors, and once you accept

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<v Speaker 6>and understand that, it's easier to see that all of

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<v Speaker 6>it it's like a giant fraud.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The other aspect of the story that I just was like,

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<v Speaker 2>from an emotional point of view, I think I've always

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<v Speaker 2>really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim

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<v Speaker 2>because I feel like we just really default to this

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<v Speaker 2>understanding of righteous rape that the only person that's worthy

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<v Speaker 2>of saying I had this crime of rape done to

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<v Speaker 2>me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the

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<v Speaker 2>street and this happened. Zaskia's story kind of defies that archetype,

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<v Speaker 2>but it still doesn't change what happened to her, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it allowed us to really examine that myth in

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<v Speaker 2>a really big way, not just through the criminal.

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<v Speaker 1>Trial, but really the divorce trial.

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<v Speaker 2>So for that reason, I feel like That's why I

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<v Speaker 2>really wanted to make this season totally what about you.

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<v Speaker 4>I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the

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<v Speaker 4>story and then all of a sudden, she gets to

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<v Speaker 4>the point in her story where he only gets eighteen

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<v Speaker 4>months in jail, and she says, this was completely legal

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<v Speaker 4>in my state, and I was like, wait, what, how

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<v Speaker 4>in the world.

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<v Speaker 5>I think that was the thing that surprised me and

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<v Speaker 5>shocked me the most this season was the fact that

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<v Speaker 5>that law was on the books at the time. Was

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<v Speaker 5>just it really hit me a little bit because I

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<v Speaker 5>don't understand how that could even be.

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<v Speaker 2>Tanner, you knew nothing going into the season about the

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<v Speaker 2>story and the creative You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin

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<v Speaker 2>and learning as you go.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode

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<v Speaker 3>when it's ready to go into the edit.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell me what it was like working on

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<v Speaker 2>this season, what moment most surprised you, and what do

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<v Speaker 2>you feel like was the most impactful.

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<v Speaker 3>What shocked me maybe the most in the story was

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<v Speaker 3>a quote from the perpetrator, Mike. I think it was

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<v Speaker 3>during the divorce trial that he didn't believe in his

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<v Speaker 3>heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with

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<v Speaker 3>his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was

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<v Speaker 3>doing if he was not raping her, what did he

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<v Speaker 3>think that was? That was what was most shocking to me,

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<v Speaker 3>even after admitting to committing this crime. Then go to

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<v Speaker 3>a different court and say the exact opposite.

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<v Speaker 2>There is an entitlement there that exists in our society.

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<v Speaker 2>Whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland,

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<v Speaker 2>he already felt entitled to her body in a way

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<v Speaker 2>however he wanted it. And then there are laws that

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<v Speaker 2>exist in the.

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<v Speaker 1>State in which he lives with his.

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<v Speaker 2>Wife that in Bolden and validate that entitlement. Those two

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<v Speaker 2>things I think have been interconnected and working for each

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<v Speaker 2>other since the creation of this country.

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<v Speaker 5>That was kind of hand in hand to The most

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<v Speaker 5>impactful thing is that this case and other cases that

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<v Speaker 5>have come on recently have helped change these laws, and

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<v Speaker 5>these laws are changing, and I think it's good to

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<v Speaker 5>see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some

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<v Speaker 5>of this.

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<v Speaker 2>We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like?

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<v Speaker 2>Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you

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<v Speaker 2>deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction.

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<v Speaker 2>What can I do to repair, do less harm and

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<v Speaker 2>own up to my mistakes? And when you look at

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<v Speaker 2>how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands

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<v Speaker 2>that they've done something wrong understands the impact of their

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<v Speaker 2>behavior and actions towards another person would say, you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>no fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me do as little harm in this process to Saskia.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be the right thing to do. He did

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<v Speaker 1>not do that.

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<v Speaker 2>As much as it is to tell Sasti's story, we

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<v Speaker 2>are in a way telling the Mike Levin good story

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<v Speaker 2>of what he did to his wife.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm a human being.

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<v Speaker 2>I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild,

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<v Speaker 2>but I also think about the fact of, like, what

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<v Speaker 2>has this person done to restore and help support Saskia.

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<v Speaker 7>This is something Kerry and I have been talking about.

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<v Speaker 7>So Carrie had produced seasons one through four, and when

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<v Speaker 7>this season came around, Carrie actually stepped out to produce

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<v Speaker 7>another show at Glass Burden of Guilt and that is

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<v Speaker 7>a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it.

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<v Speaker 7>The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make amends

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<v Speaker 7>for something hateous that he did in his past. And

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<v Speaker 7>there's something Karrien, I've been talking about here with season

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<v Speaker 7>five of Betrayal with Oskia story, because like, we don't

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<v Speaker 7>set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to

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<v Speaker 7>report the story. Survivors come to us, right to us,

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<v Speaker 7>and we work with them. But if there was genuinely

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<v Speaker 7>an effort that Mike leven Good had made to acknowledge

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<v Speaker 7>the harm he had done to make amends, you know,

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<v Speaker 7>and he did plead guilty, like he had the opportunity

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<v Speaker 7>to use that to make a statement to her to

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<v Speaker 7>not put her through the divorce trial she did, and

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<v Speaker 7>like you were saying, Andrea, like he did not take

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<v Speaker 7>those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc

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<v Speaker 7>because it isn't there, and it's disappointing.

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<v Speaker 4>Honestly, I think the thing that makes this season different

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<v Speaker 4>in terms of that amends and accountability piece is that

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<v Speaker 4>we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to

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<v Speaker 4>make an entire career off of his criminal past. And

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<v Speaker 4>to me, the most shocking take of the entire season

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<v Speaker 4>comes at the end of episode nine, where you hear

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<v Speaker 4>Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levinngood and I

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<v Speaker 4>was in the room for that call, so I remember

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<v Speaker 4>it very well. And Trey gets on the line tells

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<v Speaker 4>Mike that we want to tell this story about his

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<v Speaker 4>business and about his relationship with Saska Inwood, And the

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<v Speaker 4>tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking, like you

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<v Speaker 4>could tell he really did not see the connection between

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<v Speaker 4>what he did to Saskia and what he is doing

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<v Speaker 4>in his business now. It's like he has had to

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<v Speaker 4>sever something in his mind in order to move forward

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<v Speaker 4>with his life, and that's a privilege that Saskia will

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<v Speaker 4>never be afforded.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so curious. This goes to the editors. What is

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<v Speaker 2>your favorite episode of the season and why.

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<v Speaker 3>The courtroom the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I

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<v Speaker 3>love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear

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<v Speaker 3>somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it

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<v Speaker 3>happening in real time and hearing the judge see through

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<v Speaker 3>Mike's liies. You know, when you hear defense attorneys and

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<v Speaker 3>witnesses saying all these things that you know are not

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<v Speaker 3>true or just being spun in this way, and then

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<v Speaker 3>to hear the person with the power see through it

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<v Speaker 3>and make the right decision. It's just so satisfying.

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<v Speaker 5>Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do

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<v Speaker 5>second a lot of what you said, Danner. It's always

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<v Speaker 5>refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody

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<v Speaker 5>who just thinks that he's flying pretty it feels like

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<v Speaker 5>a good moment. Whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually,

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<v Speaker 5>you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me too.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And sometimes you can have all the evidence, the videos,

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<v Speaker 2>the photos, and it's still it may not be enough.

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<v Speaker 1>But in this case, the judge really saw. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>so grateful, Carrie. I was going to ask you, you know, having.

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<v Speaker 4>Worked on this show in every iteration of it, having

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<v Speaker 4>worked with so many different subjects, what to you really

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<v Speaker 4>resonated this season.

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<v Speaker 6>I think we knew even before the Giselle Pelico story

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<v Speaker 6>came out this kind of crime is a trend. It's underreported,

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<v Speaker 6>and it's probably underreported because people are too shamefilled to

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<v Speaker 6>report it.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, and it's under prosecuted.

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<v Speaker 6>I really feel good when we are bringing things to

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<v Speaker 6>the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by

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<v Speaker 6>a good portion of the public. Because you never know

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<v Speaker 6>when one of our audience members might be wake up

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<v Speaker 6>with the morning unsure of what happened the night before,

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<v Speaker 6>or feeling odd, And it's just information an education that

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<v Speaker 6>it's okay to question.

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<v Speaker 4>Totally, and I mean with the idea that this is

0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:17.240
<v Speaker 4>a trend for me. One of the most impactful parts

0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.240
<v Speaker 4>of this season was talking to all of these other

0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.160
<v Speaker 4>women who had experienced this crime. We did also include

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:28.760
<v Speaker 4>these stories of Natalie, Ember and Stephanie, and watching the

0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.200
<v Speaker 4>three of them in their progression and their healing journey

0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.560
<v Speaker 4>has been really impactful too. I mean, Drey and I

0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.960
<v Speaker 4>talk all the time about Natalie in particular. She'd never

0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.240
<v Speaker 4>heard of a story like her own until she heard

0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.960
<v Speaker 4>Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal Weekly, and when I first got

0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.960
<v Speaker 4>on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous, and

0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.880
<v Speaker 4>over the course of many, many months, we had lots

0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.520
<v Speaker 4>of conversations back and forth about do you want to

0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 4>tell your story now, is later down the line a

0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.680
<v Speaker 4>better time? What level of anonymity do we want to use?

0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.120
<v Speaker 4>She eventually felt comfortable, and when we had that round

0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:12.560
<v Speaker 4>table conversation with all of these other survivors, it was

0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 4>like a different woman was in that room, like or

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 4>hope as a show is always that the people that

0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.680
<v Speaker 4>we're working with we are able to impact their lives

0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.200
<v Speaker 4>in some little way, that by helping them tell their story,

0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 4>we are helping them on their healing journey. But I

0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.800
<v Speaker 4>think that was one of the first times where I,

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.320
<v Speaker 4>as someone who's really new to this field, saw right

0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 4>before my eyes.

0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Like this is someone who's transformed.

0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.520
<v Speaker 4>There was just a brightness in her face that made

0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:42.840
<v Speaker 4>me incredibly emotional.

0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's the thing is realizing that you're not alone.

0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:49.680
<v Speaker 2>I felt that way when I was listening to the

0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.080
<v Speaker 2>bonus episode with.

0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:52.120
<v Speaker 1>The case updates.

0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie

0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.880
<v Speaker 2>at the very end spoilers if anyone hasn't listened to

0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:02.280
<v Speaker 2>that bonus episode, it's an update on.

0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Mber, Natalie and Stephanie.

0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.880
<v Speaker 2>And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.320
<v Speaker 2>was wearing baggy clothes, she chopped off all of her hair,

0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.080
<v Speaker 2>she couldn't even look in the mirror, and she is

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.040
<v Speaker 2>just now reclaiming her body and that's the work that

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:23.880
<v Speaker 2>she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:29.080
<v Speaker 2>two years ago. It's astonishing to see what she's done

0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 2>in the work that she's put in and how she

0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.480
<v Speaker 2>came out on the other side.

0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:34.320
<v Speaker 1>It's cool.

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.960
<v Speaker 7>It's really cool when people ask, which they often do. Oh,

0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:40.760
<v Speaker 7>it must be so hard to work on stories like this.

0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.760
<v Speaker 7>The antidote for me is really getting to see the

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.680
<v Speaker 7>healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making,

0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 7>and to see that the telling of their story was

0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.040
<v Speaker 7>helpful and that is actually more impactful for me in

0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.680
<v Speaker 7>the end than the worst part of their story.

0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:57.800
<v Speaker 1>That we hear.

0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you all for your hard work this season.

0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.719
<v Speaker 2>It was a difficult season to produce. It was an

0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:11.679
<v Speaker 2>emotional one to produce, and you know, we deal with

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.720
<v Speaker 2>really tough subject matter. But I'm really proud of the

0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.399
<v Speaker 2>season and I'm proud of everyone's work on it, and

0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:25.880
<v Speaker 2>so thank you. For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN

0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:30.240
<v Speaker 2>dot org slash betrayal. That's our ai n N dot

0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:34.760
<v Speaker 2>org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential twenty

0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:39.399
<v Speaker 2>four seven support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just

0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 2>text Hope to six four six seven three or call

0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:47.159
<v Speaker 2>one eight hundred sixty five six Hope you are not alone.

0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.080
<v Speaker 2>If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.440
<v Speaker 2>team or want to tell us your story, email us

0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:58.240
<v Speaker 2>at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That is Betrayal Pod

0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.120
<v Speaker 2>at gmail dot com. Or follow us on Instagram at

0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 2>betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with

0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:10.360
<v Speaker 2>the Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack

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<v Speaker 2>dot com.

0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:13.400
<v Speaker 1>We're grateful for your support.

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<v Speaker 2>One way to show support is by subscribing to our

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<v Speaker 2>show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and

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0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:24.960
<v Speaker 2>big thank you to all of our listeners.

0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:26.679
<v Speaker 1>Betrayal is the.

0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced

0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.800
<v Speaker 2>by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by

0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 2>me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our

0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.359
<v Speaker 2>supervising producer is Kerrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique

0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:52.000
<v Speaker 2>le Board. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are

0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melciri.

0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali

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<v Speaker 2>Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with

0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:10.440
<v Speaker 2>additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia,

0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.920
<v Speaker 2>her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson

0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 2>and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Bains.

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<v Speaker 2>from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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