WEBVTT - Little Mermaid Part 1: The Golden Contract 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:25.796 --> 0:00:27.396 Hold on, how many kids do you have? 0:00:27.796 --> 0:00:28.676 I have two boys. 0:00:28.996 --> 0:00:32.036 Okay, so your kids are how old at this point? 0:00:32.156 --> 0:00:32.356 Oh? 0:00:32.436 --> 0:00:33.116 They were young. 0:00:33.156 --> 0:00:35.516 I mean this was before you know, you can call 0:00:35.596 --> 0:00:38.876 up anything on all of Disney Plus or whatever. 0:00:39.436 --> 0:00:43.596 I'm speaking with Laura Beth Nielsen, law professor, social scientist, 0:00:43.996 --> 0:00:46.836 chair of the Northwestern University Sociology Department. 0:00:47.276 --> 0:00:49.636 You know, they were VHS tapes and they wanted to 0:00:49.676 --> 0:00:52.396 watch them. And at some point, you know, as the adult, 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:55.956 you just didn't get my numbingly bored and I started 0:00:55.996 --> 0:00:58.436 thinking about what else they represented. 0:00:58.716 --> 0:01:02.556 Were there particular movies that got you thinking along these lines? 0:01:02.636 --> 0:01:03.796 It was The Little Mermaid. 0:01:04.036 --> 0:01:05.116 It was a Little Mermaid. 0:01:05.796 --> 0:01:09.956 I want to be where the people are. I want 0:01:09.956 --> 0:01:14.196 to see want to see him dancing, walkin me. 0:01:17.756 --> 0:01:20.676 The Little Mermaid came out in nineteen eighty nine. It's 0:01:20.676 --> 0:01:23.396 based on the hands Christian Andersen children's story of the 0:01:23.436 --> 0:01:28.036 same name, an animated musical from Walt Disney Pictures written 0:01:28.156 --> 0:01:31.436 and directed by the team of Ron Clements and John Musker, 0:01:31.956 --> 0:01:35.716 about an adolescent mermaid named Ariel who wants to leave 0:01:35.756 --> 0:01:38.876 the sea and trade in her fins for feet because 0:01:38.916 --> 0:01:42.236 she's fallen in love with a handsome prince. She rescued 0:01:42.276 --> 0:01:45.076 him from a shipwreck, and now she can't stop thinking 0:01:45.116 --> 0:01:45.596 about him. 0:01:45.676 --> 0:01:49.156 What would I pay to stay here beside you? 0:01:50.196 --> 0:01:54.556 What would I do to see him smiling at me? 0:01:56.636 --> 0:02:03.116 The Little Mermaid is for kids, specifically, and especially little girls. 0:02:04.196 --> 0:02:07.796 It's a princess movie. When it came out, it rejuvenated 0:02:07.836 --> 0:02:12.716 Disney's animated film business, setting off a spectacular run Beauty 0:02:12.756 --> 0:02:18.316 and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion, King, Pocahontas. But it 0:02:18.356 --> 0:02:22.436 isn't just kids who watch Disney movies. It's their parents. 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:27.196 Parents like Laura Beth Nielsen, the lead author, with Nahal 0:02:27.236 --> 0:02:31.796 Patel and Jacob Brosner, of a twenty seventeen Law Journal 0:02:31.916 --> 0:02:34.996 article called a Head of the Law Men, Law and 0:02:35.076 --> 0:02:40.276 Morality in Disney Animated Films nineteen sixty to nineteen ninety eight. 0:02:41.716 --> 0:02:44.516 If you have a young child, I recommend you read 0:02:44.516 --> 0:02:52.236 this article before it's too late. I read the paper 0:02:52.876 --> 0:02:55.196 and I rolled my eyes and I I was like, 0:02:55.996 --> 0:02:59.476 seems to be like And then you know, I'd never 0:02:59.516 --> 0:03:03.316 seen a Little Mermaid. So then I watched The Little 0:03:03.316 --> 0:03:09.236 Mermaid and I was like, oh, you're so right. Yeah, yes, 0:03:09.876 --> 0:03:13.636 you heard that correctly. I had never seen The Little Mermaid. 0:03:13.916 --> 0:03:16.356 I was the only person in the English speaking world 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:18.556 who could not sing the lyrics to under the Sea. 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:21.916 In fact, I don't think i'd seen a Disney animated 0:03:21.956 --> 0:03:26.716 movie at all. And then one day, deep into my 0:03:26.836 --> 0:03:31.916 adult ears, I discovered Walt Disney's The Little Mermaid. 0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:34.836 It's very dramatic, but it's not. 0:03:34.796 --> 0:03:37.556 Just that that's a hugely We're going to come back 0:03:37.556 --> 0:03:41.076 to this, but that is a hugely problematic movie. 0:03:41.676 --> 0:03:43.876 Oh, for a million reasons. 0:03:43.716 --> 0:03:47.436 For a million reasons. Ultimately, this episode is about whether 0:03:47.596 --> 0:03:55.556 it can be fixed. Wait did I say this episode? 0:03:55.836 --> 0:04:00.956 I meant three episodes. Was spending the next three weeks 0:04:01.276 --> 0:04:04.316 on The Little Mermaid. Revisionist History's take on The Little 0:04:04.316 --> 0:04:06.636 Mermaid is going to go on longer than The Little 0:04:06.676 --> 0:04:13.596 Mermaid itself. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 0:04:13.676 --> 0:04:19.476 Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. Sometimes 0:04:19.476 --> 0:04:23.716 we go high at Revisionist History, sometimes we go sideways. 0:04:24.396 --> 0:04:30.076 This time we're going deep, deep, deep, underwater, to the 0:04:30.116 --> 0:04:33.796 ocean floor, to the mr world, where men and women 0:04:33.836 --> 0:04:36.596 and children with fins for feet present the rest of 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:40.396 us with a series of vexing Marl conundrums. 0:04:52.236 --> 0:04:54.716 You know, some people say, oh, you're too rough on Disney. 0:04:55.516 --> 0:04:57.956 I'm not rough on Disney at all. I mean I 0:04:57.996 --> 0:04:58.796 love that movie. 0:04:59.276 --> 0:05:02.916 But it's wait, you love that movie? Are you talking 0:05:02.956 --> 0:05:03.876 about The Little Mermaid? 0:05:04.236 --> 0:05:04.836 Yeah? 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:06.436 You still maintain that you love it. 0:05:07.716 --> 0:05:10.956 Nobody's ever asked me this before. For I'm thinking, I 0:05:11.476 --> 0:05:12.316 think I do. 0:05:12.636 --> 0:05:17.356 I mean yes, I think these are opportunities to talk 0:05:17.396 --> 0:05:18.196 to your children. 0:05:19.116 --> 0:05:21.556 Oh, I see you like it because it gave you 0:05:21.596 --> 0:05:24.036 a chance to instruct your sons. 0:05:24.916 --> 0:05:25.076 Right. 0:05:25.156 --> 0:05:26.916 If I really hated it, I wouldn't have had it 0:05:26.956 --> 0:05:28.756 in my house, right, I mean. 0:05:28.756 --> 0:05:30.876 No, you didn't know until you watched it with them. 0:05:30.876 --> 0:05:33.276 You hadn't watched it yourself before you showed it to them, 0:05:33.276 --> 0:05:33.596 had you? 0:05:33.916 --> 0:05:34.076 Oh? 0:05:34.156 --> 0:05:35.276 Yeah, oh you had? 0:05:35.636 --> 0:05:35.796 Yes. 0:05:35.916 --> 0:05:38.276 Would you like me to sing the whole store? I 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:39.956 assure you the answer is no. 0:05:40.916 --> 0:05:43.356 She sat on the couch with her kids and watched 0:05:43.396 --> 0:05:47.356 it again and again and again, first with love and 0:05:47.516 --> 0:05:49.356 only then with alarm. 0:05:49.636 --> 0:05:54.436 You have to watch it unwillingly many times to get 0:05:54.476 --> 0:05:56.076 to this level of analysis. 0:05:56.116 --> 0:05:56.756 I think. 0:06:04.476 --> 0:06:07.716 When do children first encounter fairy tales at the most 0:06:07.716 --> 0:06:11.196 crucial moments, when they start to form their earliest notions 0:06:11.196 --> 0:06:14.516 of legality and morality. As Laura beeth Nielsen points out, 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:16.556 when you ask a two year old to share a toy, 0:06:17.076 --> 0:06:20.916 he'll say, no, it's mine. Ask a four or five 0:06:20.996 --> 0:06:23.436 year old and they'll say, why do I have to share? 0:06:23.996 --> 0:06:27.516 They suddenly want a framework to help them understand that request. 0:06:28.956 --> 0:06:32.316 And what do fairy tales do? They supply that framework. 0:06:33.356 --> 0:06:35.196 So this is what I want to do in these 0:06:35.196 --> 0:06:38.076 episodes about The Little Mermaid. I want to fix the 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:43.836 frame set askew by Disney a generation ago. Now as 0:06:43.876 --> 0:06:47.076 I lead you on this journey of aquatic discovery? Am 0:06:47.076 --> 0:06:50.836 I a little worried? Of course, I'm worried because this 0:06:50.996 --> 0:06:55.036 is Disney. We're talking about the magic Kingdom, the litigious 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:58.356 magic Kingdom. I hinted at this worry of mine in 0:06:58.436 --> 0:07:02.396 the least helpful place possible on The Jimmy Kimmel Show, 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:07.316 which runs on ABC, owned by Disney. I know you're 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:08.596 part of the Disney Empire. 0:07:08.636 --> 0:07:10.476 Jimmy, where you are. 0:07:10.556 --> 0:07:14.236 They're upstairs watching this right now. They're probably trying to 0:07:14.236 --> 0:07:16.556 cut me off. You'll be their fingers on the button. 0:07:17.476 --> 0:07:19.436 I'll be lucky to be alive by morning. 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:20.316 That's for sure. 0:07:21.276 --> 0:07:24.756 Jimmy sounds like he's kidding. He's not kidding. Have you 0:07:24.796 --> 0:07:28.716 ever heard of the infamous case Walt Disney Productions versus 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:33.636 the Air Pirates. An underground cartoonist named Dan O'Neill got 0:07:33.676 --> 0:07:35.556 together with a group of his hippie friends in San 0:07:35.596 --> 0:07:39.556 Francisco in nineteen seventy one and wrote two issues of 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:44.076 a Mickey and Minnie Mouse parody. Their first cover showed 0:07:44.116 --> 0:07:46.996 Mickey flying a prop plane with two bags of dope 0:07:47.036 --> 0:07:51.756 hanging from the fuselage. We're talking about most forty thousand 0:07:51.796 --> 0:07:55.196 copies of an indie comic book written by some counter 0:07:55.316 --> 0:08:01.516 culture cartoonist. Did Disney laugh? Ignore it? No? Disney sued. 0:08:02.156 --> 0:08:04.876 They brought in a battalion of high priced legal talent 0:08:05.156 --> 0:08:10.156 and rained fire on little Dan O'Neill. The case stracked 0:08:10.196 --> 0:08:13.036 on for over nine years. Let me just quote to 0:08:13.076 --> 0:08:16.196 you from the completely nuts account of the saga from 0:08:16.236 --> 0:08:21.436 the writer Bob Levin. In nineteen seventy nine, O'Neill stood 0:08:21.476 --> 0:08:25.276 before the bar, thirty eight years old, unemployed, with total 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:29.796 assets of seven dollars, a nineteen sixty three Mercury convertible, 0:08:29.996 --> 0:08:33.756 a banjo, and the baggy gray suit he was wearing. Disney, 0:08:33.916 --> 0:08:37.116 which already had a hundred and ninety thousand dollars judgment 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:40.796 against him, sought to have him find another ten thousand 0:08:40.836 --> 0:08:46.516 dollars and imprisoned for six months. You read a line 0:08:46.596 --> 0:08:49.356 like that and you think, there, but for the grace 0:08:49.356 --> 0:08:52.156 of God go I that could be me up there, 0:08:52.396 --> 0:08:56.236 standing before the court, broken and forlorn, besieged by Disney's 0:08:56.276 --> 0:09:00.236 pack of legal attack jackals. But are we at Revision's 0:09:00.316 --> 0:09:04.276 History afraid to give the story of Ariel a makeover. No, 0:09:04.396 --> 0:09:08.156 we're not, because somewhere out there is a little mermaid 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:13.596 imprisoned in script that does not do her justice. And Disney, 0:09:13.916 --> 0:09:17.556 if you're listening before the preliminary injunction start flying around, 0:09:17.836 --> 0:09:20.756 be advised that although we will be critical of certain 0:09:20.836 --> 0:09:24.676 sea creatures within the Magic Kingdom, this is criticism that 0:09:24.836 --> 0:09:26.796 comes from a place of affection. 0:09:34.716 --> 0:09:37.436 Why have not we an immortal soul, asked the little 0:09:37.436 --> 0:09:40.636 Mermaid mournfully, I would gladly give all the hundreds of 0:09:40.756 --> 0:09:42.836 years that I have to live to be a human 0:09:42.876 --> 0:09:45.396 being only for one day, and to have the hope 0:09:45.396 --> 0:09:48.956 of knowing the happiness of that glorious world above the stars. 0:09:49.196 --> 0:09:51.596 The Little Mermaid began as a short story by the 0:09:51.596 --> 0:09:56.436 great Danish storyteller Hans Christian Anderson. You probably know some 0:09:56.556 --> 0:10:00.156 hands Christian andersen tales The Princess and the pa The 0:10:00.196 --> 0:10:04.876 Emperor's New Clothes, The Ugly Duckling, the snow Queen. Anderson 0:10:04.956 --> 0:10:07.836 was born into poverty in the early nineteenth century. He 0:10:07.876 --> 0:10:12.316 was desperately insecure, here, self absorbed, probably a virgin his 0:10:12.476 --> 0:10:15.236 entire life. There's some evidence that he might have been 0:10:15.236 --> 0:10:18.236 gay or bisexual at a time and place in history 0:10:18.476 --> 0:10:21.596 when making public either of those preferences could land you 0:10:21.636 --> 0:10:27.156 in prison. What Anderson had was his talent, which was immeasurable. 0:10:27.716 --> 0:10:30.596 He also had a beautiful singing voice, which he used 0:10:30.636 --> 0:10:33.116 to gain entree into the homes of the wealthy. He 0:10:33.356 --> 0:10:36.596 was the ugly duckling. In fact, when Anderson was once 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:41.356 asked whether he would ever write his autobiography, his response was, I. 0:10:41.276 --> 0:10:47.076 Already have almost every tale. He wrote. They were grounded 0:10:47.196 --> 0:10:54.116 in the reality of his life. That was a dirt, poor, uncultivated, 0:10:55.036 --> 0:11:00.116 ugly young boy became sort of the a schwaz. 0:11:01.796 --> 0:11:05.076 That's Jack Zeipe's one of the leading experts on fairy tales. 0:11:05.836 --> 0:11:11.876 Andersen's stories are about transformation, about outsiders longing to be insiders, 0:11:12.116 --> 0:11:16.196 about the struggle for acceptance, and the Little Mermaid is 0:11:16.316 --> 0:11:24.036 quintessential Andersen. A mermaid saves a handsome prince from drowning 0:11:24.476 --> 0:11:28.236 and decides that she wants to be human too, because, 0:11:28.596 --> 0:11:32.996 as her grandmother tells her, human beings have immortal souls. 0:11:33.756 --> 0:11:36.436 You must not think of that, said the old woman. 0:11:37.156 --> 0:11:40.236 We feel ourselves to be much happier and much better 0:11:40.276 --> 0:11:44.956 off than human beings. So I shall die, said the 0:11:44.956 --> 0:11:47.876 little mermaid, And as the foam of the sea, I 0:11:47.876 --> 0:11:50.356 shall be driven about, never again to hear the music 0:11:50.356 --> 0:11:52.756 of the waves, or to see the pretty flowers, nor 0:11:52.836 --> 0:11:56.356 the red sun? Is there anything I can do to 0:11:56.436 --> 0:11:57.476 win an immortal soul? 0:11:58.876 --> 0:12:02.836 The Mermaid's desire to leave the water becomes overwhelming, so 0:12:02.876 --> 0:12:05.316 she goes to a sea witch, who gives her a 0:12:05.356 --> 0:12:08.716 potion and tells her that when she drinks it, her 0:12:08.756 --> 0:12:12.796 fins will turn into legs. All who see you will 0:12:12.836 --> 0:12:16.476 say that you are the prettiest little human they ever saw. 0:12:17.356 --> 0:12:20.316 But every step she takes will be filled with pain, 0:12:20.756 --> 0:12:23.676 as if she were treading upon sharp knives. If the 0:12:23.676 --> 0:12:27.156 prince marries her, she can stay a human if she 0:12:27.236 --> 0:12:31.036 fails to win his heart, she will die. Oh, and 0:12:31.076 --> 0:12:34.916 the witch extracts the most horrible down payment. 0:12:35.996 --> 0:12:38.756 When at last the magic draft was ready, it looked 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:42.916 like the clearest water. There it is for you, said 0:12:42.956 --> 0:12:46.396 the witch. Then she cut off the Mermaid's tongue so 0:12:46.436 --> 0:12:49.156 that she would become dumb and would never again speak 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:49.676 or sing. 0:12:51.676 --> 0:12:57.196 Oh. Man. And yet does Anderson's mermaid get to marry 0:12:57.196 --> 0:13:01.516 the prince. No, she doesn't. The prince ends up marrying 0:13:01.796 --> 0:13:06.636 another woman, and the Mermaid melts into foam. Classic Andersen. 0:13:07.476 --> 0:13:11.436 As Jack Zipes puts it, most of Anderson's characters wind 0:13:11.516 --> 0:13:13.836 up his metaphors for his own suffering. 0:13:14.516 --> 0:13:17.156 He never felt, at least for him, what he would 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:21.436 consider true happiness, and that was the motor of all 0:13:21.476 --> 0:13:25.956 of his tales. The frustration he felt comes out in 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:28.076 most of the tales that he wrote. 0:13:28.636 --> 0:13:32.076 A lot of the scholarship on Hans Christian Anderson dwells 0:13:32.116 --> 0:13:35.596 on this point about the connection between his fairy tales 0:13:35.836 --> 0:13:39.596 and his own life. There's a wonderful essay by Gabrielle 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:42.796 Bellot where she points out that just before Anderson wrote 0:13:42.796 --> 0:13:46.436 The Little Mermaid, he'd been embroiled in a passionate completely 0:13:46.556 --> 0:13:50.396 unrequited romance with a handsome young Dane. Let me just 0:13:50.436 --> 0:13:53.036 read to you from Bellot's essay, where she cites a 0:13:53.076 --> 0:13:57.796 poem that Anderson wrote about his love. It goes, Rosebud, 0:13:58.356 --> 0:14:01.236 so firm and round, lovely as a young girl's mouth. 0:14:01.516 --> 0:14:05.956 I kiss you as my bride. The amateur poem continues 0:14:06.596 --> 0:14:11.076 with further kisses and an exhortation, too, feel my fire. 0:14:13.556 --> 0:14:16.996 What does the object of Anderson's love do? He rejects 0:14:17.076 --> 0:14:21.836 Anderson for a woman. The author is plunged into despair 0:14:22.236 --> 0:14:25.036 and writes The Little Mermaid, a story about a creature 0:14:25.076 --> 0:14:27.876 from another world who must give up her beautiful voice, 0:14:28.076 --> 0:14:32.716 her identity to be accepted by the greater world, only 0:14:32.796 --> 0:14:39.516 to be rejected for a woman. And there The Little 0:14:39.516 --> 0:14:45.956 Mermaid remained a sad story from a tortured soul until 0:14:45.956 --> 0:14:47.796 one day she got. 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:57.276 A new life. 0:14:57.596 --> 0:15:03.756 A sentry passes and along comes Disney. In the nineteen eighties, 0:15:03.956 --> 0:15:07.756 the Disney animated franchise was in trouble. Its greatest hits, 0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:12.476 Snow White Ko Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty were all in the past. 0:15:12.996 --> 0:15:15.356 They wanted us all to go out and find new ideas. 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:19.196 This is Ron Clemens, longtime writer and director at Disney, 0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:22.836 speaking a few years ago at the Big Animation Conference 0:15:23.156 --> 0:15:24.276 Industry Giants. 0:15:24.516 --> 0:15:27.236 I read the Hans Christian Andersen's story in a bookstore, 0:15:27.436 --> 0:15:30.276 and as I was reading it, I thought it seemed 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:32.436 like this is great, this is so cool. But as 0:15:32.476 --> 0:15:35.516 I continue to read it, it's very very sad. 0:15:36.116 --> 0:15:39.196 Oh yes, it is very very sad, all the way 0:15:39.236 --> 0:15:41.436 to the bitter end, where the Little Mermaid is reduced 0:15:41.476 --> 0:15:44.796 to a clump of ceaphone. The little girls of America 0:15:45.076 --> 0:15:49.196 are not yet ready. Clemens feels for an aquatic allegory 0:15:49.356 --> 0:15:51.356 of unrequirded homosexual longing. 0:15:51.756 --> 0:15:54.436 They gets sadder and sadder and sadder, and then she 0:15:54.556 --> 0:15:58.076 dies in the end. So it was almost depressing in 0:15:58.116 --> 0:16:00.836 a way, but I thought it had a lot of potential, 0:16:00.916 --> 0:16:02.196 so I made it a little more of a good 0:16:02.236 --> 0:16:04.876 against evil story and a left triumphs solve story. 0:16:05.756 --> 0:16:08.916 Clemens and his co director John Musker gave the Little 0:16:08.916 --> 0:16:14.756 Mare made a name. Ariel the Sea Witch became Ursula, 0:16:14.876 --> 0:16:18.596 a campy octopus based on the legendary drag queen divine 0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:23.356 and Joan Collins villainous of one hundred nineteen seventies b movies. 0:16:24.076 --> 0:16:27.236 Ariel's father, the leader of the Muhr World, is a big, 0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:30.636 white haired giant named King Triton, who looks a little 0:16:30.676 --> 0:16:33.396 like Santa Claus if Santa Claus had spent the off 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:38.276 season lifting weights, and Ariel gets a few sidekicks. Sebastian, 0:16:38.476 --> 0:16:41.236 a crab with a Jamaican accent and love of Calypso, 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:45.116 is a fish named Flounder, and a ditsy seagull named Scuttle. 0:16:46.636 --> 0:16:50.076 The prince Ariel falls in love with is named Prince Eric. 0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:55.356 He's a dashingly handsome aristocrat with a sheep dog. Howard 0:16:55.396 --> 0:16:58.996 Ashman and Alan Menkin, the creators of Little Shop of Horrors, 0:16:59.196 --> 0:17:02.356 were brought in to write the music. Everyone loved the result. 0:17:03.116 --> 0:17:06.196 John Musker remembers opening his front door on Halloween night 0:17:06.276 --> 0:17:08.836 after the movie came out and seeing a little girl 0:17:09.196 --> 0:17:13.356 dressed as Ariel, and he realized, we made it. We're 0:17:13.396 --> 0:17:18.156 in the culture. Clemens and Musker would go on to 0:17:18.196 --> 0:17:22.756 do some of Disney's most memorable animated movies, Aladdin, Princess 0:17:22.796 --> 0:17:26.996 and the Frog Moanna. They're now the grandfathers of Hollywood animation. 0:17:27.556 --> 0:17:32.196 John and Ron should be proud, but let's keep listening 0:17:32.196 --> 0:17:34.956 to Ron Clemens as he talks about The Little Mermaid. 0:17:35.716 --> 0:17:39.316 I never really felt any guilt so much about changing 0:17:39.436 --> 0:17:41.236 the sad ending to a happy inding. 0:17:42.196 --> 0:17:46.796 Hm, where did that come from? Who said anything about guilt? 0:17:47.556 --> 0:17:50.516 Is there something here weighing on Ron Clemens's conscience. 0:17:51.236 --> 0:17:54.076 I never felt any guilt until I was doing publicity 0:17:54.116 --> 0:17:57.916 in Copenhagen for the European premiere of the film, and 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:00.836 that's where hence Christian Andersen lived and that's where the 0:18:00.876 --> 0:18:03.756 statue of the Little Mermaid is. They were not so 0:18:03.876 --> 0:18:05.836 happy about it. They were giving me a hard time 0:18:05.916 --> 0:18:09.556 about changing the Indian and even one interview said it 0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:11.156 would be as if we took go on with the 0:18:11.156 --> 0:18:14.876 Wind and we changed the ending. Scarlett O'Hara stayed with 0:18:14.956 --> 0:18:15.956 Red Butler in the end. 0:18:16.596 --> 0:18:20.116 So not all Danes appreciated what Disney did with a 0:18:20.116 --> 0:18:24.236 Little Mermaid. But my beef is not Danish. My beef 0:18:24.436 --> 0:18:28.316 comes from the scholar Laura beth Nielsen. Do you remember 0:18:28.356 --> 0:18:30.196 what specific thing in that movie got you think it? 0:18:30.236 --> 0:18:32.476 Wait a minute, Oh, it's. 0:18:32.356 --> 0:18:36.676 That moment where Triton shoots his. 0:18:38.316 --> 0:18:43.356 Trident at Ursula to try to save his daughter from 0:18:43.356 --> 0:18:48.116 this what every viewer knows is an extremely immoral arrangement. 0:18:51.756 --> 0:18:56.356 The extremely immoral arrangement she's talking about, it's the contract 0:18:56.476 --> 0:19:01.036 Aerial signs with Ursula. In the original fairy Tale version 0:19:01.076 --> 0:19:03.756 of Little Mermaid, the Mermaid made a handshake deal with 0:19:03.796 --> 0:19:06.276 the Sea Witch. She got the potion that made her 0:19:06.316 --> 0:19:10.156 a human. In exchange, the sea Witch cut off her tongue. 0:19:12.236 --> 0:19:15.196 In the Disney version, they bring in lawyers. Of course 0:19:15.196 --> 0:19:19.356 they do. Ursula, the Disney diva, won't make any magic 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:25.316 deals without a signed contract. Ariel signs the scroll. She 0:19:25.436 --> 0:19:27.676 now has three days to get Eric to kiss her. 0:19:27.836 --> 0:19:31.236 If she fails, she has to return underwater and become 0:19:31.356 --> 0:19:35.076 Ursula's slave. Now, if you've watched the movie, you know 0:19:35.156 --> 0:19:38.596 what happens next. Ariel comes close to kissing Eric but 0:19:38.676 --> 0:19:43.236 gets foiled. Ursula acquires Ariel's voice, transforms herself into a 0:19:43.276 --> 0:19:47.916 beautiful young woman, and steals Eric away, whereupon King Triton 0:19:48.196 --> 0:19:50.436 confronts Ursula to get his daughter back. 0:19:51.116 --> 0:19:54.196 Let her go, Not a chance, Triton, She's mine. Now, 0:19:54.716 --> 0:19:56.236 really you need to deal. 0:19:57.156 --> 0:20:00.716 That's when Triton tries to destroy the contract with his trident. 0:20:02.476 --> 0:20:05.956 It doesn't work. Then Ursula says, and this is the 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:06.636 key phrase. 0:20:06.876 --> 0:20:12.396 You see, the contracts legal binding and completely unbreakable even 0:20:12.556 --> 0:20:12.996 for you. 0:20:15.276 --> 0:20:17.516 She holds up the contract, it's gold. 0:20:18.156 --> 0:20:24.996 And it was that unbreakable golden contract that was ruling 0:20:25.076 --> 0:20:30.356 this whole situation. And it was, I mean, from you know, 0:20:30.436 --> 0:20:35.796 a law professor perspective, clearly illegal under the law. 0:20:37.036 --> 0:20:40.836 I mean it's a contract involving a minor and the 0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:41.956 sale of body parts. 0:20:44.236 --> 0:20:45.316 I believe in law. 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:47.996 I mean, I'm skeptical about a lot of claims, and 0:20:48.036 --> 0:20:50.036 I think we need to empirically study them and all 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:54.276 of those sorts of things. But fundamentally, I want my 0:20:54.316 --> 0:21:00.316 students and my children to understand that law embodies. 0:21:00.036 --> 0:21:02.396 Or should embody, and we have to strive to make 0:21:02.436 --> 0:21:06.956 it always be so true justice and a piece of 0:21:06.996 --> 0:21:12.196 paper or in this case gold, whatever it is, doesn't 0:21:12.796 --> 0:21:14.916 win out over a just outcome. 0:21:16.236 --> 0:21:19.316 That's the argument of Nielsen's paper, the one published in 0:21:19.356 --> 0:21:22.356 twenty seventeen. When I ran across it, I'll admit my 0:21:22.436 --> 0:21:25.596 first thought was, this is some academic with way too 0:21:25.676 --> 0:21:28.196 much time on her hands. Do we really need to 0:21:28.316 --> 0:21:32.516 overthink animated movies of fairy tales? But then I realized, 0:21:32.996 --> 0:21:36.956 actually we do. There are lots of things we overthink 0:21:36.996 --> 0:21:40.556 in our society. I overthink everything all the time, and 0:21:40.676 --> 0:21:44.036 most of the things I overthink are not nearly as 0:21:44.036 --> 0:21:46.196 important as the narratives we tell children. 0:21:49.556 --> 0:21:53.196 And finally we get to sit down and have this conversation. 0:21:54.076 --> 0:21:57.636 Did you watch Oprah's famous interview with Megan Markle? A 0:21:57.676 --> 0:22:01.436 young woman marries a prince and finds herself thwarted by 0:22:01.436 --> 0:22:06.396 the royal family, suppressed, silenced, And what did Megan Markle 0:22:06.516 --> 0:22:10.436 reference as a parallel for her predicament? Not a theory 0:22:10.476 --> 0:22:14.036 of justice by John Rawls. No, the Little Mermaid, who. 0:22:13.996 --> 0:22:16.316 Is an adult really watches The Little Mermaid. But it 0:22:16.396 --> 0:22:18.156 came on. I was like, well, I've I'm just here 0:22:18.196 --> 0:22:19.596 all the times, and may as well watch this, And 0:22:19.636 --> 0:22:23.756 I went, oh my god. She falls in love with 0:22:23.796 --> 0:22:26.956 the prince, and because of that she has to lose 0:22:26.956 --> 0:22:30.356 her voice. But by the end she gets her voice. 0:22:30.156 --> 0:22:32.996 Back, gets her voice back, and this is what happened here. 0:22:33.036 --> 0:22:34.396 You feel like you got your voice back. 0:22:35.556 --> 0:22:38.916 When Oprah said that, did we all roll our eyes? No, 0:22:39.756 --> 0:22:45.956 we said, oh my god, she's so right. Perhaps the 0:22:45.996 --> 0:22:49.236 most famous book ever written about children's stories is The 0:22:49.356 --> 0:22:53.356 Uses of Enchantment by Bruno Bettelheim. He says that fairy 0:22:53.356 --> 0:22:57.596 tales teach children that quote a struggle against severe difficulties 0:22:57.636 --> 0:23:01.596 in life is unavoidable, is an intrinsic part of human existence. 0:23:02.396 --> 0:23:05.396 But that if one does not shy away but steadfastly 0:23:05.476 --> 0:23:11.156 meets unexpected and often unjust hardships, one masters all obstacles 0:23:11.596 --> 0:23:19.796 and at the end emerges victorious. End quote. Fairy tales matter. 0:23:20.476 --> 0:23:24.156 But who tells most of our fairy tales? Now? Disney? 0:23:24.956 --> 0:23:41.316 And what's the problem with Disney? They've gotten sloppy. If 0:23:41.396 --> 0:23:45.916 I were prosecuting Disney for moral sloppiness, here is where 0:23:45.916 --> 0:23:46.516 I would begin. 0:23:47.156 --> 0:23:49.916 I ain't talking rabbit, and there ain't nothing you can 0:23:49.956 --> 0:23:56.396 do to meet me. Ayesome fuck. 0:23:57.596 --> 0:24:02.836 Exhibit A Disney's Zutopia PG rating family comedy from twenty sixteen. 0:24:03.476 --> 0:24:07.156 Zutopia is all about a world of animals starring a 0:24:07.236 --> 0:24:13.156 rabbit police officer Judy Hopps. Couldn't be cute, right except 0:24:13.196 --> 0:24:15.596 for this moment near the end of that movie where 0:24:15.596 --> 0:24:18.516 Hops needs to find out a crucial bit of information 0:24:18.716 --> 0:24:22.156 about a criminal conspiracy. She has a shrewd name, mister 0:24:22.196 --> 0:24:25.396 Big use one of his enforcers a polar bear, to 0:24:25.516 --> 0:24:29.836 interrogate a weasel named Duke. The polar Bear holds Duke 0:24:29.996 --> 0:24:33.396 over an icy pit and threatens to throw him down 0:24:33.436 --> 0:24:35.876 the hole to his death if he doesn't confess. 0:24:36.796 --> 0:24:38.316 Is this weasel right all right? 0:24:38.356 --> 0:24:39.396 Directly a talk? 0:24:39.556 --> 0:24:47.196 A talk that's torture right. Even worse, the weasel gives 0:24:47.276 --> 0:24:50.636 up the info right away. So the movie is modeling 0:24:50.676 --> 0:24:54.276 something that isn't even true in the real world. There 0:24:54.396 --> 0:24:57.676 is no empirical support for the notion that the application 0:24:57.876 --> 0:25:00.876 of coercive force is the most efficient way to get 0:25:00.916 --> 0:25:04.316 a confession out of a reluctant party, even if that 0:25:04.436 --> 0:25:16.796 reluctant party is a weasel. Okay. Exhibit B Toy Story 0:25:16.836 --> 0:25:21.836 three Family Comedy g Rating twenty ten, another Disney movie 0:25:22.116 --> 0:25:24.676 which is full of all sorts of excruciating scenes of 0:25:24.716 --> 0:25:28.156 one sort or another, like when mister potato Head gets 0:25:28.196 --> 0:25:31.516 locked in a sandbox, or another scene where a plastic 0:25:31.636 --> 0:25:35.196 rotary phone is viciously beaten to the point where he 0:25:35.276 --> 0:25:38.636 divulges critical information to the evil lots. 0:25:38.396 --> 0:25:46.876 Of you lost little Doggie. Well, well look who's back. 0:25:50.556 --> 0:25:51.756 I'm sorry cowboy. 0:25:52.116 --> 0:25:58.996 Oh they broke me, they broke me. It's a g rating. 0:26:01.196 --> 0:26:03.756 It isn't just Disney by the way, there's a kind 0:26:03.756 --> 0:26:07.276