1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:25,796 --> 00:00:27,396 Speaker 2: Hold on, how many kids do you have? 3 00:00:27,796 --> 00:00:28,676 Speaker 3: I have two boys. 4 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:32,036 Speaker 2: Okay, so your kids are how old at this point? 5 00:00:32,156 --> 00:00:32,356 Speaker 1: Oh? 6 00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 3: They were young. 7 00:00:33,156 --> 00:00:35,516 Speaker 4: I mean this was before you know, you can call 8 00:00:35,596 --> 00:00:38,876 Speaker 4: up anything on all of Disney Plus or whatever. 9 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Laura Beth Nielsen, law professor, social scientist, 10 00:00:43,996 --> 00:00:46,836 Speaker 2: chair of the Northwestern University Sociology Department. 11 00:00:47,276 --> 00:00:49,636 Speaker 4: You know, they were VHS tapes and they wanted to 12 00:00:49,676 --> 00:00:52,396 Speaker 4: watch them. And at some point, you know, as the adult, 13 00:00:52,476 --> 00:00:55,956 Speaker 4: you just didn't get my numbingly bored and I started 14 00:00:55,996 --> 00:00:58,436 Speaker 4: thinking about what else they represented. 15 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:02,556 Speaker 2: Were there particular movies that got you thinking along these lines? 16 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:03,796 Speaker 3: It was The Little Mermaid. 17 00:01:04,036 --> 00:01:05,116 Speaker 2: It was a Little Mermaid. 18 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:09,956 Speaker 3: I want to be where the people are. I want 19 00:01:09,956 --> 00:01:14,196 Speaker 3: to see want to see him dancing, walkin me. 20 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 2: The Little Mermaid came out in nineteen eighty nine. It's 21 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:23,396 Speaker 2: based on the hands Christian Andersen children's story of the 22 00:01:23,436 --> 00:01:28,036 Speaker 2: same name, an animated musical from Walt Disney Pictures written 23 00:01:28,156 --> 00:01:31,436 Speaker 2: and directed by the team of Ron Clements and John Musker, 24 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:35,716 Speaker 2: about an adolescent mermaid named Ariel who wants to leave 25 00:01:35,756 --> 00:01:38,876 Speaker 2: the sea and trade in her fins for feet because 26 00:01:38,916 --> 00:01:42,236 Speaker 2: she's fallen in love with a handsome prince. She rescued 27 00:01:42,276 --> 00:01:45,076 Speaker 2: him from a shipwreck, and now she can't stop thinking 28 00:01:45,116 --> 00:01:45,596 Speaker 2: about him. 29 00:01:45,676 --> 00:01:49,156 Speaker 5: What would I pay to stay here beside you? 30 00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:54,556 Speaker 6: What would I do to see him smiling at me? 31 00:01:56,636 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 2: The Little Mermaid is for kids, specifically, and especially little girls. 32 00:02:04,196 --> 00:02:07,796 Speaker 2: It's a princess movie. When it came out, it rejuvenated 33 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:12,716 Speaker 2: Disney's animated film business, setting off a spectacular run Beauty 34 00:02:12,756 --> 00:02:18,316 Speaker 2: and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion, King, Pocahontas. But it 35 00:02:18,356 --> 00:02:22,436 Speaker 2: isn't just kids who watch Disney movies. It's their parents. 36 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:27,196 Speaker 2: Parents like Laura Beth Nielsen, the lead author, with Nahal 37 00:02:27,236 --> 00:02:31,796 Speaker 2: Patel and Jacob Brosner, of a twenty seventeen Law Journal 38 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:34,996 Speaker 2: article called a Head of the Law Men, Law and 39 00:02:35,076 --> 00:02:40,276 Speaker 2: Morality in Disney Animated Films nineteen sixty to nineteen ninety eight. 40 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:44,516 Speaker 2: If you have a young child, I recommend you read 41 00:02:44,516 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 2: this article before it's too late. I read the paper 42 00:02:52,876 --> 00:02:55,196 Speaker 2: and I rolled my eyes and I I was like, 43 00:02:55,996 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 2: seems to be like And then you know, I'd never 44 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:03,316 Speaker 2: seen a Little Mermaid. So then I watched The Little 45 00:03:03,316 --> 00:03:09,236 Speaker 2: Mermaid and I was like, oh, you're so right. Yeah, yes, 46 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:13,636 Speaker 2: you heard that correctly. I had never seen The Little Mermaid. 47 00:03:13,916 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 2: I was the only person in the English speaking world 48 00:03:16,516 --> 00:03:18,556 Speaker 2: who could not sing the lyrics to under the Sea. 49 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:21,916 Speaker 2: In fact, I don't think i'd seen a Disney animated 50 00:03:21,956 --> 00:03:26,716 Speaker 2: movie at all. And then one day, deep into my 51 00:03:26,836 --> 00:03:31,916 Speaker 2: adult ears, I discovered Walt Disney's The Little Mermaid. 52 00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:34,836 Speaker 3: It's very dramatic, but it's not. 53 00:03:34,796 --> 00:03:37,556 Speaker 2: Just that that's a hugely We're going to come back 54 00:03:37,556 --> 00:03:41,076 Speaker 2: to this, but that is a hugely problematic movie. 55 00:03:41,676 --> 00:03:43,876 Speaker 3: Oh, for a million reasons. 56 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:47,436 Speaker 2: For a million reasons. Ultimately, this episode is about whether 57 00:03:47,596 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 2: it can be fixed. Wait did I say this episode? 58 00:03:55,836 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 2: I meant three episodes. Was spending the next three weeks 59 00:04:01,276 --> 00:04:04,316 Speaker 2: on The Little Mermaid. Revisionist History's take on The Little 60 00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:06,636 Speaker 2: Mermaid is going to go on longer than The Little 61 00:04:06,676 --> 00:04:13,596 Speaker 2: Mermaid itself. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 62 00:04:13,676 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 2: Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. Sometimes 63 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 2: we go high at Revisionist History, sometimes we go sideways. 64 00:04:24,396 --> 00:04:30,076 Speaker 2: This time we're going deep, deep, deep, underwater, to the 65 00:04:30,116 --> 00:04:33,796 Speaker 2: ocean floor, to the mr world, where men and women 66 00:04:33,836 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 2: and children with fins for feet present the rest of 67 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:40,396 Speaker 2: us with a series of vexing Marl conundrums. 68 00:04:52,236 --> 00:04:54,716 Speaker 4: You know, some people say, oh, you're too rough on Disney. 69 00:04:55,516 --> 00:04:57,956 Speaker 4: I'm not rough on Disney at all. I mean I 70 00:04:57,996 --> 00:04:58,796 Speaker 4: love that movie. 71 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:02,916 Speaker 2: But it's wait, you love that movie? Are you talking 72 00:05:02,956 --> 00:05:03,876 Speaker 2: about The Little Mermaid? 73 00:05:04,236 --> 00:05:04,836 Speaker 3: Yeah? 74 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 2: You still maintain that you love it. 75 00:05:07,716 --> 00:05:10,956 Speaker 3: Nobody's ever asked me this before. For I'm thinking, I 76 00:05:11,476 --> 00:05:12,316 Speaker 3: think I do. 77 00:05:12,636 --> 00:05:17,356 Speaker 4: I mean yes, I think these are opportunities to talk 78 00:05:17,396 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 4: to your children. 79 00:05:19,116 --> 00:05:21,556 Speaker 2: Oh, I see you like it because it gave you 80 00:05:21,596 --> 00:05:24,036 Speaker 2: a chance to instruct your sons. 81 00:05:24,916 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 3: Right. 82 00:05:25,156 --> 00:05:26,916 Speaker 4: If I really hated it, I wouldn't have had it 83 00:05:26,956 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 4: in my house, right, I mean. 84 00:05:28,756 --> 00:05:30,876 Speaker 2: No, you didn't know until you watched it with them. 85 00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:33,276 Speaker 2: You hadn't watched it yourself before you showed it to them, 86 00:05:33,276 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 2: had you? 87 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 7: Oh? 88 00:05:34,156 --> 00:05:35,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh you had? 89 00:05:35,636 --> 00:05:35,796 Speaker 8: Yes. 90 00:05:35,916 --> 00:05:38,276 Speaker 3: Would you like me to sing the whole store? I 91 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:39,956 Speaker 3: assure you the answer is no. 92 00:05:40,916 --> 00:05:43,356 Speaker 2: She sat on the couch with her kids and watched 93 00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:47,356 Speaker 2: it again and again and again, first with love and 94 00:05:47,516 --> 00:05:49,356 Speaker 2: only then with alarm. 95 00:05:49,636 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 4: You have to watch it unwillingly many times to get 96 00:05:54,476 --> 00:05:56,076 Speaker 4: to this level of analysis. 97 00:05:56,116 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 3: I think. 98 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 2: When do children first encounter fairy tales at the most 99 00:06:07,716 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 2: crucial moments, when they start to form their earliest notions 100 00:06:11,196 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 2: of legality and morality. As Laura beeth Nielsen points out, 101 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 2: when you ask a two year old to share a toy, 102 00:06:17,076 --> 00:06:20,916 Speaker 2: he'll say, no, it's mine. Ask a four or five 103 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:23,436 Speaker 2: year old and they'll say, why do I have to share? 104 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 2: They suddenly want a framework to help them understand that request. 105 00:06:28,956 --> 00:06:32,316 Speaker 2: And what do fairy tales do? They supply that framework. 106 00:06:33,356 --> 00:06:35,196 Speaker 2: So this is what I want to do in these 107 00:06:35,196 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 2: episodes about The Little Mermaid. I want to fix the 108 00:06:38,116 --> 00:06:43,836 Speaker 2: frame set askew by Disney a generation ago. Now as 109 00:06:43,876 --> 00:06:47,076 Speaker 2: I lead you on this journey of aquatic discovery? Am 110 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:50,836 Speaker 2: I a little worried? Of course, I'm worried because this 111 00:06:50,996 --> 00:06:55,036 Speaker 2: is Disney. We're talking about the magic Kingdom, the litigious 112 00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,356 Speaker 2: magic Kingdom. I hinted at this worry of mine in 113 00:06:58,436 --> 00:07:02,396 Speaker 2: the least helpful place possible on The Jimmy Kimmel Show, 114 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 2: which runs on ABC, owned by Disney. I know you're 115 00:07:07,396 --> 00:07:08,596 Speaker 2: part of the Disney Empire. 116 00:07:08,636 --> 00:07:10,476 Speaker 1: Jimmy, where you are. 117 00:07:10,556 --> 00:07:14,236 Speaker 2: They're upstairs watching this right now. They're probably trying to 118 00:07:14,236 --> 00:07:16,556 Speaker 2: cut me off. You'll be their fingers on the button. 119 00:07:17,476 --> 00:07:19,436 Speaker 2: I'll be lucky to be alive by morning. 120 00:07:19,596 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 1: That's for sure. 121 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 2: Jimmy sounds like he's kidding. He's not kidding. Have you 122 00:07:24,796 --> 00:07:28,716 Speaker 2: ever heard of the infamous case Walt Disney Productions versus 123 00:07:28,916 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 2: the Air Pirates. An underground cartoonist named Dan O'Neill got 124 00:07:33,676 --> 00:07:35,556 Speaker 2: together with a group of his hippie friends in San 125 00:07:35,596 --> 00:07:39,556 Speaker 2: Francisco in nineteen seventy one and wrote two issues of 126 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 2: a Mickey and Minnie Mouse parody. Their first cover showed 127 00:07:44,116 --> 00:07:46,996 Speaker 2: Mickey flying a prop plane with two bags of dope 128 00:07:47,036 --> 00:07:51,756 Speaker 2: hanging from the fuselage. We're talking about most forty thousand 129 00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:55,196 Speaker 2: copies of an indie comic book written by some counter 130 00:07:55,316 --> 00:08:01,516 Speaker 2: culture cartoonist. Did Disney laugh? Ignore it? No? Disney sued. 131 00:08:02,156 --> 00:08:04,876 Speaker 2: They brought in a battalion of high priced legal talent 132 00:08:05,156 --> 00:08:10,156 Speaker 2: and rained fire on little Dan O'Neill. The case stracked 133 00:08:10,196 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 2: on for over nine years. Let me just quote to 134 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 2: you from the completely nuts account of the saga from 135 00:08:16,236 --> 00:08:21,436 Speaker 2: the writer Bob Levin. In nineteen seventy nine, O'Neill stood 136 00:08:21,476 --> 00:08:25,276 Speaker 2: before the bar, thirty eight years old, unemployed, with total 137 00:08:25,276 --> 00:08:29,796 Speaker 2: assets of seven dollars, a nineteen sixty three Mercury convertible, 138 00:08:29,996 --> 00:08:33,756 Speaker 2: a banjo, and the baggy gray suit he was wearing. Disney, 139 00:08:33,916 --> 00:08:37,116 Speaker 2: which already had a hundred and ninety thousand dollars judgment 140 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 2: against him, sought to have him find another ten thousand 141 00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 2: dollars and imprisoned for six months. You read a line 142 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:49,356 Speaker 2: like that and you think, there, but for the grace 143 00:08:49,356 --> 00:08:52,156 Speaker 2: of God go I that could be me up there, 144 00:08:52,396 --> 00:08:56,236 Speaker 2: standing before the court, broken and forlorn, besieged by Disney's 145 00:08:56,276 --> 00:09:00,236 Speaker 2: pack of legal attack jackals. But are we at Revision's 146 00:09:00,316 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 2: History afraid to give the story of Ariel a makeover. No, 147 00:09:04,396 --> 00:09:08,156 Speaker 2: we're not, because somewhere out there is a little mermaid 148 00:09:08,516 --> 00:09:13,596 Speaker 2: imprisoned in script that does not do her justice. And Disney, 149 00:09:13,916 --> 00:09:17,556 Speaker 2: if you're listening before the preliminary injunction start flying around, 150 00:09:17,836 --> 00:09:20,756 Speaker 2: be advised that although we will be critical of certain 151 00:09:20,836 --> 00:09:24,676 Speaker 2: sea creatures within the Magic Kingdom, this is criticism that 152 00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 2: comes from a place of affection. 153 00:09:34,716 --> 00:09:37,436 Speaker 7: Why have not we an immortal soul, asked the little 154 00:09:37,436 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 7: Mermaid mournfully, I would gladly give all the hundreds of 155 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:42,836 Speaker 7: years that I have to live to be a human 156 00:09:42,876 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 7: being only for one day, and to have the hope 157 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:48,956 Speaker 7: of knowing the happiness of that glorious world above the stars. 158 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 2: The Little Mermaid began as a short story by the 159 00:09:51,596 --> 00:09:56,436 Speaker 2: great Danish storyteller Hans Christian Anderson. You probably know some 160 00:09:56,556 --> 00:10:00,156 Speaker 2: hands Christian andersen tales The Princess and the pa The 161 00:10:00,196 --> 00:10:04,876 Speaker 2: Emperor's New Clothes, The Ugly Duckling, the snow Queen. Anderson 162 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 2: was born into poverty in the early nineteenth century. He 163 00:10:07,876 --> 00:10:12,316 Speaker 2: was desperately insecure, here, self absorbed, probably a virgin his 164 00:10:12,476 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 2: entire life. There's some evidence that he might have been 165 00:10:15,236 --> 00:10:18,236 Speaker 2: gay or bisexual at a time and place in history 166 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:21,596 Speaker 2: when making public either of those preferences could land you 167 00:10:21,636 --> 00:10:27,156 Speaker 2: in prison. What Anderson had was his talent, which was immeasurable. 168 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:30,596 Speaker 2: He also had a beautiful singing voice, which he used 169 00:10:30,636 --> 00:10:33,116 Speaker 2: to gain entree into the homes of the wealthy. He 170 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:36,596 Speaker 2: was the ugly duckling. In fact, when Anderson was once 171 00:10:36,676 --> 00:10:41,356 Speaker 2: asked whether he would ever write his autobiography, his response was, I. 172 00:10:41,276 --> 00:10:47,076 Speaker 9: Already have almost every tale. He wrote. They were grounded 173 00:10:47,196 --> 00:10:54,116 Speaker 9: in the reality of his life. That was a dirt, poor, uncultivated, 174 00:10:55,036 --> 00:11:00,116 Speaker 9: ugly young boy became sort of the a schwaz. 175 00:11:01,796 --> 00:11:05,076 Speaker 2: That's Jack Zeipe's one of the leading experts on fairy tales. 176 00:11:05,836 --> 00:11:11,876 Speaker 2: Andersen's stories are about transformation, about outsiders longing to be insiders, 177 00:11:12,116 --> 00:11:16,196 Speaker 2: about the struggle for acceptance, and the Little Mermaid is 178 00:11:16,316 --> 00:11:24,036 Speaker 2: quintessential Andersen. A mermaid saves a handsome prince from drowning 179 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:28,236 Speaker 2: and decides that she wants to be human too, because, 180 00:11:28,596 --> 00:11:32,996 Speaker 2: as her grandmother tells her, human beings have immortal souls. 181 00:11:33,756 --> 00:11:36,436 Speaker 7: You must not think of that, said the old woman. 182 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:40,236 Speaker 7: We feel ourselves to be much happier and much better 183 00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 7: off than human beings. So I shall die, said the 184 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 7: little mermaid, And as the foam of the sea, I 185 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:50,356 Speaker 7: shall be driven about, never again to hear the music 186 00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:52,756 Speaker 7: of the waves, or to see the pretty flowers, nor 187 00:11:52,836 --> 00:11:56,356 Speaker 7: the red sun? Is there anything I can do to 188 00:11:56,436 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 7: win an immortal soul? 189 00:11:58,876 --> 00:12:02,836 Speaker 2: The Mermaid's desire to leave the water becomes overwhelming, so 190 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 2: she goes to a sea witch, who gives her a 191 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 2: potion and tells her that when she drinks it, her 192 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 2: fins will turn into legs. All who see you will 193 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:16,476 Speaker 2: say that you are the prettiest little human they ever saw. 194 00:12:17,356 --> 00:12:20,316 Speaker 2: But every step she takes will be filled with pain, 195 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 2: as if she were treading upon sharp knives. If the 196 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:27,156 Speaker 2: prince marries her, she can stay a human if she 197 00:12:27,236 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 2: fails to win his heart, she will die. Oh, and 198 00:12:31,076 --> 00:12:34,916 Speaker 2: the witch extracts the most horrible down payment. 199 00:12:35,996 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 7: When at last the magic draft was ready, it looked 200 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:42,916 Speaker 7: like the clearest water. There it is for you, said 201 00:12:42,956 --> 00:12:46,396 Speaker 7: the witch. Then she cut off the Mermaid's tongue so 202 00:12:46,436 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 7: that she would become dumb and would never again speak 203 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 7: or sing. 204 00:12:51,676 --> 00:12:57,196 Speaker 2: Oh. Man. And yet does Anderson's mermaid get to marry 205 00:12:57,196 --> 00:13:01,516 Speaker 2: the prince. No, she doesn't. The prince ends up marrying 206 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:06,636 Speaker 2: another woman, and the Mermaid melts into foam. Classic Andersen. 207 00:13:07,476 --> 00:13:11,436 Speaker 2: As Jack Zipes puts it, most of Anderson's characters wind 208 00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 2: up his metaphors for his own suffering. 209 00:13:14,516 --> 00:13:17,156 Speaker 9: He never felt, at least for him, what he would 210 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:21,436 Speaker 9: consider true happiness, and that was the motor of all 211 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:25,956 Speaker 9: of his tales. The frustration he felt comes out in 212 00:13:26,276 --> 00:13:28,076 Speaker 9: most of the tales that he wrote. 213 00:13:28,636 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 2: A lot of the scholarship on Hans Christian Anderson dwells 214 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:35,596 Speaker 2: on this point about the connection between his fairy tales 215 00:13:35,836 --> 00:13:39,596 Speaker 2: and his own life. There's a wonderful essay by Gabrielle 216 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:42,796 Speaker 2: Bellot where she points out that just before Anderson wrote 217 00:13:42,796 --> 00:13:46,436 Speaker 2: The Little Mermaid, he'd been embroiled in a passionate completely 218 00:13:46,556 --> 00:13:50,396 Speaker 2: unrequited romance with a handsome young Dane. Let me just 219 00:13:50,436 --> 00:13:53,036 Speaker 2: read to you from Bellot's essay, where she cites a 220 00:13:53,076 --> 00:13:57,796 Speaker 2: poem that Anderson wrote about his love. It goes, Rosebud, 221 00:13:58,356 --> 00:14:01,236 Speaker 2: so firm and round, lovely as a young girl's mouth. 222 00:14:01,516 --> 00:14:05,956 Speaker 2: I kiss you as my bride. The amateur poem continues 223 00:14:06,596 --> 00:14:11,076 Speaker 2: with further kisses and an exhortation, too, feel my fire. 224 00:14:13,556 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 2: What does the object of Anderson's love do? He rejects 225 00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:21,836 Speaker 2: Anderson for a woman. The author is plunged into despair 226 00:14:22,236 --> 00:14:25,036 Speaker 2: and writes The Little Mermaid, a story about a creature 227 00:14:25,076 --> 00:14:27,876 Speaker 2: from another world who must give up her beautiful voice, 228 00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:32,716 Speaker 2: her identity to be accepted by the greater world, only 229 00:14:32,796 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 2: to be rejected for a woman. And there The Little 230 00:14:39,516 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 2: Mermaid remained a sad story from a tortured soul until 231 00:14:45,956 --> 00:14:47,796 Speaker 2: one day she got. 232 00:14:47,676 --> 00:14:57,276 Speaker 1: A new life. 233 00:14:57,596 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 2: A sentry passes and along comes Disney. In the nineteen eighties, 234 00:15:03,956 --> 00:15:07,756 Speaker 2: the Disney animated franchise was in trouble. Its greatest hits, 235 00:15:07,996 --> 00:15:12,476 Speaker 2: Snow White Ko Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty were all in the past. 236 00:15:12,996 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 1: They wanted us all to go out and find new ideas. 237 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:19,196 Speaker 2: This is Ron Clemens, longtime writer and director at Disney, 238 00:15:19,436 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 2: speaking a few years ago at the Big Animation Conference 239 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 2: Industry Giants. 240 00:15:24,516 --> 00:15:27,236 Speaker 1: I read the Hans Christian Andersen's story in a bookstore, 241 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:30,276 Speaker 1: and as I was reading it, I thought it seemed 242 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:32,436 Speaker 1: like this is great, this is so cool. But as 243 00:15:32,476 --> 00:15:35,516 Speaker 1: I continue to read it, it's very very sad. 244 00:15:36,116 --> 00:15:39,196 Speaker 2: Oh yes, it is very very sad, all the way 245 00:15:39,236 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 2: to the bitter end, where the Little Mermaid is reduced 246 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:44,796 Speaker 2: to a clump of ceaphone. The little girls of America 247 00:15:45,076 --> 00:15:49,196 Speaker 2: are not yet ready. Clemens feels for an aquatic allegory 248 00:15:49,356 --> 00:15:51,356 Speaker 2: of unrequirded homosexual longing. 249 00:15:51,756 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 1: They gets sadder and sadder and sadder, and then she 250 00:15:54,556 --> 00:15:58,076 Speaker 1: dies in the end. So it was almost depressing in 251 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: a way, but I thought it had a lot of potential, 252 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:02,196 Speaker 1: so I made it a little more of a good 253 00:16:02,236 --> 00:16:04,876 Speaker 1: against evil story and a left triumphs solve story. 254 00:16:05,756 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 2: Clemens and his co director John Musker gave the Little 255 00:16:08,916 --> 00:16:14,756 Speaker 2: Mare made a name. Ariel the Sea Witch became Ursula, 256 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 2: a campy octopus based on the legendary drag queen divine 257 00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 2: and Joan Collins villainous of one hundred nineteen seventies b movies. 258 00:16:24,076 --> 00:16:27,236 Speaker 2: Ariel's father, the leader of the Muhr World, is a big, 259 00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 2: white haired giant named King Triton, who looks a little 260 00:16:30,676 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 2: like Santa Claus if Santa Claus had spent the off 261 00:16:33,436 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 2: season lifting weights, and Ariel gets a few sidekicks. Sebastian, 262 00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:41,236 Speaker 2: a crab with a Jamaican accent and love of Calypso, 263 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,116 Speaker 2: is a fish named Flounder, and a ditsy seagull named Scuttle. 264 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 2: The prince Ariel falls in love with is named Prince Eric. 265 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 2: He's a dashingly handsome aristocrat with a sheep dog. Howard 266 00:16:55,396 --> 00:16:58,996 Speaker 2: Ashman and Alan Menkin, the creators of Little Shop of Horrors, 267 00:16:59,196 --> 00:17:02,356 Speaker 2: were brought in to write the music. Everyone loved the result. 268 00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 2: John Musker remembers opening his front door on Halloween night 269 00:17:06,276 --> 00:17:08,836 Speaker 2: after the movie came out and seeing a little girl 270 00:17:09,196 --> 00:17:13,356 Speaker 2: dressed as Ariel, and he realized, we made it. We're 271 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:18,156 Speaker 2: in the culture. Clemens and Musker would go on to 272 00:17:18,196 --> 00:17:22,756 Speaker 2: do some of Disney's most memorable animated movies, Aladdin, Princess 273 00:17:22,796 --> 00:17:26,996 Speaker 2: and the Frog Moanna. They're now the grandfathers of Hollywood animation. 274 00:17:27,556 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 2: John and Ron should be proud, but let's keep listening 275 00:17:32,196 --> 00:17:34,956 Speaker 2: to Ron Clemens as he talks about The Little Mermaid. 276 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 1: I never really felt any guilt so much about changing 277 00:17:39,436 --> 00:17:41,236 Speaker 1: the sad ending to a happy inding. 278 00:17:42,196 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 2: Hm, where did that come from? Who said anything about guilt? 279 00:17:47,556 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 2: Is there something here weighing on Ron Clemens's conscience. 280 00:17:51,236 --> 00:17:54,076 Speaker 1: I never felt any guilt until I was doing publicity 281 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:57,916 Speaker 1: in Copenhagen for the European premiere of the film, and 282 00:17:57,996 --> 00:18:00,836 Speaker 1: that's where hence Christian Andersen lived and that's where the 283 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:03,756 Speaker 1: statue of the Little Mermaid is. They were not so 284 00:18:03,876 --> 00:18:05,836 Speaker 1: happy about it. They were giving me a hard time 285 00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: about changing the Indian and even one interview said it 286 00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:11,156 Speaker 1: would be as if we took go on with the 287 00:18:11,156 --> 00:18:14,876 Speaker 1: Wind and we changed the ending. Scarlett O'Hara stayed with 288 00:18:14,956 --> 00:18:15,956 Speaker 1: Red Butler in the end. 289 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 2: So not all Danes appreciated what Disney did with a 290 00:18:20,116 --> 00:18:24,236 Speaker 2: Little Mermaid. But my beef is not Danish. My beef 291 00:18:24,436 --> 00:18:28,316 Speaker 2: comes from the scholar Laura beth Nielsen. Do you remember 292 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:30,196 Speaker 2: what specific thing in that movie got you think it? 293 00:18:30,236 --> 00:18:32,476 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Oh, it's. 294 00:18:32,356 --> 00:18:36,676 Speaker 3: That moment where Triton shoots his. 295 00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 4: Trident at Ursula to try to save his daughter from 296 00:18:43,356 --> 00:18:48,116 Speaker 4: this what every viewer knows is an extremely immoral arrangement. 297 00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 2: The extremely immoral arrangement she's talking about, it's the contract 298 00:18:56,476 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 2: Aerial signs with Ursula. In the original fairy Tale version 299 00:19:01,076 --> 00:19:03,756 Speaker 2: of Little Mermaid, the Mermaid made a handshake deal with 300 00:19:03,796 --> 00:19:06,276 Speaker 2: the Sea Witch. She got the potion that made her 301 00:19:06,316 --> 00:19:10,156 Speaker 2: a human. In exchange, the sea Witch cut off her tongue. 302 00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:15,196 Speaker 2: In the Disney version, they bring in lawyers. Of course 303 00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:19,356 Speaker 2: they do. Ursula, the Disney diva, won't make any magic 304 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:25,316 Speaker 2: deals without a signed contract. Ariel signs the scroll. She 305 00:19:25,436 --> 00:19:27,676 Speaker 2: now has three days to get Eric to kiss her. 306 00:19:27,836 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 2: If she fails, she has to return underwater and become 307 00:19:31,356 --> 00:19:35,076 Speaker 2: Ursula's slave. Now, if you've watched the movie, you know 308 00:19:35,156 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 2: what happens next. Ariel comes close to kissing Eric but 309 00:19:38,676 --> 00:19:43,236 Speaker 2: gets foiled. Ursula acquires Ariel's voice, transforms herself into a 310 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:47,916 Speaker 2: beautiful young woman, and steals Eric away, whereupon King Triton 311 00:19:48,196 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 2: confronts Ursula to get his daughter back. 312 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:54,196 Speaker 3: Let her go, Not a chance, Triton, She's mine. Now, 313 00:19:54,716 --> 00:19:56,236 Speaker 3: really you need to deal. 314 00:19:57,156 --> 00:20:00,716 Speaker 2: That's when Triton tries to destroy the contract with his trident. 315 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 2: It doesn't work. Then Ursula says, and this is the 316 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 2: key phrase. 317 00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:12,396 Speaker 9: You see, the contracts legal binding and completely unbreakable even 318 00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 9: for you. 319 00:20:15,276 --> 00:20:17,516 Speaker 3: She holds up the contract, it's gold. 320 00:20:18,156 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 4: And it was that unbreakable golden contract that was ruling 321 00:20:25,076 --> 00:20:30,356 Speaker 4: this whole situation. And it was, I mean, from you know, 322 00:20:30,436 --> 00:20:35,796 Speaker 4: a law professor perspective, clearly illegal under the law. 323 00:20:37,036 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 2: I mean it's a contract involving a minor and the 324 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:41,956 Speaker 2: sale of body parts. 325 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:45,316 Speaker 3: I believe in law. 326 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:47,996 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm skeptical about a lot of claims, and 327 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:50,036 Speaker 4: I think we need to empirically study them and all 328 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:54,276 Speaker 4: of those sorts of things. But fundamentally, I want my 329 00:20:54,316 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 4: students and my children to understand that law embodies. 330 00:21:00,036 --> 00:21:02,396 Speaker 5: Or should embody, and we have to strive to make 331 00:21:02,436 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 5: it always be so true justice and a piece of 332 00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:12,196 Speaker 5: paper or in this case gold, whatever it is, doesn't 333 00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:14,916 Speaker 5: win out over a just outcome. 334 00:21:16,236 --> 00:21:19,316 Speaker 2: That's the argument of Nielsen's paper, the one published in 335 00:21:19,356 --> 00:21:22,356 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. When I ran across it, I'll admit my 336 00:21:22,436 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 2: first thought was, this is some academic with way too 337 00:21:25,676 --> 00:21:28,196 Speaker 2: much time on her hands. Do we really need to 338 00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:32,516 Speaker 2: overthink animated movies of fairy tales? But then I realized, 339 00:21:32,996 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 2: actually we do. There are lots of things we overthink 340 00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:40,556 Speaker 2: in our society. I overthink everything all the time, and 341 00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:44,036 Speaker 2: most of the things I overthink are not nearly as 342 00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:46,196 Speaker 2: important as the narratives we tell children. 343 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:53,196 Speaker 4: And finally we get to sit down and have this conversation. 344 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:57,636 Speaker 2: Did you watch Oprah's famous interview with Megan Markle? A 345 00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 2: young woman marries a prince and finds herself thwarted by 346 00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:06,396 Speaker 2: the royal family, suppressed, silenced, And what did Megan Markle 347 00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:10,436 Speaker 2: reference as a parallel for her predicament? Not a theory 348 00:22:10,476 --> 00:22:14,036 Speaker 2: of justice by John Rawls. No, the Little Mermaid, who. 349 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:16,316 Speaker 10: Is an adult really watches The Little Mermaid. But it 350 00:22:16,396 --> 00:22:18,156 Speaker 10: came on. I was like, well, I've I'm just here 351 00:22:18,196 --> 00:22:19,596 Speaker 10: all the times, and may as well watch this, And 352 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:23,756 Speaker 10: I went, oh my god. She falls in love with 353 00:22:23,796 --> 00:22:26,956 Speaker 10: the prince, and because of that she has to lose 354 00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:30,356 Speaker 10: her voice. But by the end she gets her voice. 355 00:22:30,156 --> 00:22:32,996 Speaker 3: Back, gets her voice back, and this is what happened here. 356 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:34,396 Speaker 8: You feel like you got your voice back. 357 00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 2: When Oprah said that, did we all roll our eyes? No, 358 00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 2: we said, oh my god, she's so right. Perhaps the 359 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:49,236 Speaker 2: most famous book ever written about children's stories is The 360 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:53,356 Speaker 2: Uses of Enchantment by Bruno Bettelheim. He says that fairy 361 00:22:53,356 --> 00:22:57,596 Speaker 2: tales teach children that quote a struggle against severe difficulties 362 00:22:57,636 --> 00:23:01,596 Speaker 2: in life is unavoidable, is an intrinsic part of human existence. 363 00:23:02,396 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 2: But that if one does not shy away but steadfastly 364 00:23:05,476 --> 00:23:11,156 Speaker 2: meets unexpected and often unjust hardships, one masters all obstacles 365 00:23:11,596 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 2: and at the end emerges victorious. End quote. Fairy tales matter. 366 00:23:20,476 --> 00:23:24,156 Speaker 2: But who tells most of our fairy tales? Now? Disney? 367 00:23:24,956 --> 00:23:41,316 Speaker 2: And what's the problem with Disney? They've gotten sloppy. If 368 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:45,916 Speaker 2: I were prosecuting Disney for moral sloppiness, here is where 369 00:23:45,916 --> 00:23:46,516 Speaker 2: I would begin. 370 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:49,916 Speaker 3: I ain't talking rabbit, and there ain't nothing you can 371 00:23:49,956 --> 00:23:56,396 Speaker 3: do to meet me. Ayesome fuck. 372 00:23:57,596 --> 00:24:02,836 Speaker 2: Exhibit A Disney's Zutopia PG rating family comedy from twenty sixteen. 373 00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:07,156 Speaker 2: Zutopia is all about a world of animals starring a 374 00:24:07,236 --> 00:24:13,156 Speaker 2: rabbit police officer Judy Hopps. Couldn't be cute, right except 375 00:24:13,196 --> 00:24:15,596 Speaker 2: for this moment near the end of that movie where 376 00:24:15,596 --> 00:24:18,516 Speaker 2: Hops needs to find out a crucial bit of information 377 00:24:18,716 --> 00:24:22,156 Speaker 2: about a criminal conspiracy. She has a shrewd name, mister 378 00:24:22,196 --> 00:24:25,396 Speaker 2: Big use one of his enforcers a polar bear, to 379 00:24:25,516 --> 00:24:29,836 Speaker 2: interrogate a weasel named Duke. The polar Bear holds Duke 380 00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:33,396 Speaker 2: over an icy pit and threatens to throw him down 381 00:24:33,436 --> 00:24:35,876 Speaker 2: the hole to his death if he doesn't confess. 382 00:24:36,796 --> 00:24:38,316 Speaker 4: Is this weasel right all right? 383 00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 3: Directly a talk? 384 00:24:39,556 --> 00:24:47,196 Speaker 2: A talk that's torture right. Even worse, the weasel gives 385 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 2: up the info right away. So the movie is modeling 386 00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:54,276 Speaker 2: something that isn't even true in the real world. There 387 00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 2: is no empirical support for the notion that the application 388 00:24:57,876 --> 00:25:00,876 Speaker 2: of coercive force is the most efficient way to get 389 00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:04,316 Speaker 2: a confession out of a reluctant party, even if that 390 00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 2: reluctant party is a weasel. Okay. Exhibit B Toy Story 391 00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:21,836 Speaker 2: three Family Comedy g Rating twenty ten, another Disney movie 392 00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:24,676 Speaker 2: which is full of all sorts of excruciating scenes of 393 00:25:24,716 --> 00:25:28,156 Speaker 2: one sort or another, like when mister potato Head gets 394 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:31,516 Speaker 2: locked in a sandbox, or another scene where a plastic 395 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:35,196 Speaker 2: rotary phone is viciously beaten to the point where he 396 00:25:35,276 --> 00:25:38,636 Speaker 2: divulges critical information to the evil lots. 397 00:25:38,396 --> 00:25:46,876 Speaker 1: Of you lost little Doggie. Well, well look who's back. 398 00:25:50,556 --> 00:25:51,756 Speaker 8: I'm sorry cowboy. 399 00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:58,996 Speaker 2: Oh they broke me, they broke me. It's a g rating. 400 00:26:01,196 --> 00:26:03,756 Speaker 2: It isn't just Disney by the way, there's a kind 401 00:26:03,756 --> 00:26:07,276 Speaker 2: of moral sloppiness everywhere in children's entertainment. 402 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:10,116 Speaker 8: One thing I didn't expect was how often torture would 403 00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 8: be played for humor, which I thought was kind of 404 00:26:12,876 --> 00:26:13,996 Speaker 8: particularly fascinating. 405 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 2: That's the social scientist Casey de Lahunty, who with Aaron Carnes, 406 00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:22,396 Speaker 2: actually made a list of every torture scene that occurs 407 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:25,956 Speaker 2: in Hollywood's top grossing movies between two thousand and eight 408 00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:27,196 Speaker 2: and twenty seventeen. 409 00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:30,956 Speaker 8: The SpongeBob movie has some really good examples of this, 410 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:34,316 Speaker 8: where like, they have a whole scene where they torture 411 00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 8: a tire, and like, it's meant to be played for humor. 412 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 7: What do we have here? 413 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 4: Be better? Hurry those guys really hate tires, so you 414 00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:48,036 Speaker 4: won't talk. 415 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:50,756 Speaker 2: Let's samor out of them. 416 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:55,516 Speaker 8: And then later they find that they've actually tortured the 417 00:26:55,596 --> 00:26:59,916 Speaker 8: anthropomorphic computer. But even that scene is all just jokes, 418 00:26:59,956 --> 00:27:01,996 Speaker 8: like what would it be like to torture a computer? 419 00:27:02,156 --> 00:27:07,756 Speaker 8: And it's legitimately funny but also disconcerting. 420 00:27:08,196 --> 00:27:13,916 Speaker 2: You think. So back to Laura Beth Nielsen one more time. 421 00:27:14,516 --> 00:27:17,836 Speaker 2: Her field of study is lay perceptions of the law. 422 00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 2: How do ordinary people come to understand the law. 423 00:27:21,956 --> 00:27:27,916 Speaker 4: So not just law like a statute that Congress passes 424 00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:31,716 Speaker 4: or a Supreme Court decision, but in general, you know, 425 00:27:31,836 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 4: what do you mean by liberty? 426 00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:34,996 Speaker 3: Whose concept of liliberty? 427 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:37,436 Speaker 4: You know, ordinary people don't say, oh well, it's a 428 00:27:37,436 --> 00:27:41,276 Speaker 4: combination of John Stuart Mill and Benjamin Franklin's writings, and 429 00:27:42,156 --> 00:27:47,356 Speaker 4: they have these sort of lay conceptions which aren't right 430 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,596 Speaker 4: or wrong, but they motivate action, and they make up 431 00:27:50,636 --> 00:27:54,356 Speaker 4: what we think of as fair and just and what 432 00:27:54,396 --> 00:27:57,036 Speaker 4: the appropriate role of the state should be, which is 433 00:27:57,276 --> 00:27:59,556 Speaker 4: I mean, that's the whole question of law. 434 00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:03,676 Speaker 2: This is what she studies. And then one day she's 435 00:28:03,676 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 2: sitting on the couch with her boys at the moment 436 00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:09,356 Speaker 2: that they are in that critical window of moral development. 437 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 2: She watches for the million time as Ariel signs the 438 00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:21,436 Speaker 2: scroll and Nielsen says, wait a minute. The point of 439 00:28:21,436 --> 00:28:24,636 Speaker 2: the law is that it's supposed to avoid conflict. It's 440 00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:27,836 Speaker 2: supposed to embody a sense of what's right, not enshrine 441 00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 2: an outrageously exploitative deal in which a miner gives up 442 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:34,716 Speaker 2: a body part, makes themselves liable for a lifetime of 443 00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:37,916 Speaker 2: underwater slavery, and needs to be bailed out by an 444 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:41,916 Speaker 2: armed posse. Did you intervene? Did you stop the tape 445 00:28:41,996 --> 00:28:45,036 Speaker 2: and say, look, boys, just sowhare clear? 446 00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:46,116 Speaker 3: You didn't? 447 00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:47,516 Speaker 2: Well wait a minute, why not? 448 00:28:48,036 --> 00:28:50,476 Speaker 4: Oh, well, we've talked about it since I wouldn't stop 449 00:28:50,516 --> 00:28:52,796 Speaker 4: it right then they would do you have gids? 450 00:28:52,876 --> 00:28:54,676 Speaker 3: They would have meltdown. 451 00:28:56,236 --> 00:28:59,836 Speaker 2: The point is, if you're Laurabeth Nielsen and worry about 452 00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:07,596 Speaker 2: these sorts of things, Disney films are tricky. How quickly 453 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:12,476 Speaker 2: after they watched the movie? Did you discuss the movie 454 00:29:12,956 --> 00:29:16,556 Speaker 2: as a as a problematic narrative with him? But did 455 00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 2: you wait for yours? Or did you? 456 00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 6: Oh? 457 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 4: No, I know, well no, I talked to them at 458 00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:24,916 Speaker 4: an age appropriate level at various points in time. I 459 00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:27,916 Speaker 4: probably said it's too bad that they couldn't work this 460 00:29:28,036 --> 00:29:31,916 Speaker 4: out another way. I didn't say that's an unconscionable contract. 461 00:29:31,956 --> 00:29:35,076 Speaker 4: Don't you remember Botsaikas VI Demosis and from Law SCHOITL 462 00:29:35,076 --> 00:29:37,516 Speaker 4: You know, I but I you know something like that? 463 00:29:37,636 --> 00:29:42,036 Speaker 2: And then in that moment you describe what the movie 464 00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:46,436 Speaker 2: is telling the viewer is that the Law is is 465 00:29:46,516 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 2: all powerful, not even Triton, who later in the movie 466 00:29:51,236 --> 00:29:54,356 Speaker 2: can transform his own daughter from amrmid into a human being. 467 00:29:54,396 --> 00:29:56,276 Speaker 2: That's how powerful. He's basically god. 468 00:29:56,636 --> 00:29:57,236 Speaker 3: He is God. 469 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:02,396 Speaker 2: But can you overturn any moral contract? Not a chance, right, 470 00:30:02,756 --> 00:30:06,036 Speaker 2: not a chance. Remember, at the end of the movie, 471 00:30:06,196 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 2: Ariel and Triton and Prince Eric don't erec yes Ursula. 472 00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:13,436 Speaker 2: They don't initiate some kind of formal proceedings against her, 473 00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:16,276 Speaker 2: They don't try her in court, they don't make use 474 00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:19,916 Speaker 2: of the same legal mechanisms that Ursula did. In the 475 00:30:19,956 --> 00:30:23,036 Speaker 2: internal logic of the film, the reason why Triton can't 476 00:30:23,036 --> 00:30:26,196 Speaker 2: break the contract is that Triton doesn't control the law. 477 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:31,236 Speaker 2: The law is entirely controlled by this mobster Ursula, and 478 00:30:31,956 --> 00:30:32,916 Speaker 2: he's outmaneuvered. 479 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:36,036 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, you know, the evil people can take the 480 00:30:36,116 --> 00:30:38,956 Speaker 4: law and do these things with it, and maybe you 481 00:30:38,996 --> 00:30:41,116 Speaker 4: could have fought it at some point or another. 482 00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:45,116 Speaker 3: But once the deal is done, it's unbreakable. 483 00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:50,836 Speaker 2: How does this whole thing ultimately get resolved? Eric pursues 484 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:58,396 Speaker 2: Ursula with his ship and kills her. The Little Mermaid 485 00:30:58,676 --> 00:31:02,116 Speaker 2: is a vigilante picture. It's an animated, dirty, hairy movie. 486 00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:05,516 Speaker 2: They might as well have had Clint Eastwood play Prince Eric. 487 00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:10,796 Speaker 4: Law is often presented as you are you know, ineffective, 488 00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:16,596 Speaker 4: completely irrelevant or negative, right or bad, something that the 489 00:31:16,596 --> 00:31:17,516 Speaker 4: bad guys use. 490 00:31:17,676 --> 00:31:20,636 Speaker 3: And then what tends to solve the problem is violence. 491 00:31:21,116 --> 00:31:24,756 Speaker 4: Yeah, either mob violence or in this case, you know 492 00:31:24,796 --> 00:31:26,996 Speaker 4: it's Ursula gets killed by. 493 00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:29,756 Speaker 2: A ship really yeah, impaled. 494 00:31:30,036 --> 00:31:32,716 Speaker 3: Yes, she gets impaled by the bow of it all. 495 00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 2: The Freudian scholars writing about Little Mermaid refer to it 496 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:37,636 Speaker 2: as a phallic impalement. 497 00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:42,676 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, the gender stuff on this movie. 498 00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:53,036 Speaker 2: Forever and we will. In upcoming episodes, you'll hear from 499 00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:56,436 Speaker 2: a neuroscientist turned literary theorist who will help us to 500 00:31:56,476 --> 00:31:59,676 Speaker 2: code the hidden meaning of the Little Mermaid narrative. A 501 00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:02,836 Speaker 2: big name Hollywood casting agent will stop by to sort 502 00:32:02,876 --> 00:32:06,436 Speaker 2: to the show's characters, and best of all, in an 503 00:32:06,476 --> 00:32:11,196 Speaker 2: act of massive revisionist history, I prevail upon a high 504 00:32:11,276 --> 00:32:14,596 Speaker 2: end Hollywood screenwriter to reimagine the movie. 505 00:32:14,876 --> 00:32:19,316 Speaker 6: Malcolm. I used to tie my ankles with like sweat 506 00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:22,636 Speaker 6: socks and then jump into the pool so that I could, 507 00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:25,196 Speaker 6: you know, swim with my feet tied together like the 508 00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:25,956 Speaker 6: Little Mermaid. 509 00:32:27,556 --> 00:32:32,996 Speaker 2: Coming up next week, Brent Marlin dives deep deep into 510 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:43,796 Speaker 2: the underworld. Revision's History is produced by me LaBelle Leeman 511 00:32:43,876 --> 00:32:47,476 Speaker 2: Gesteu and Jacob Smith with Eloise Linton and on a Nyme. 512 00:32:48,116 --> 00:32:51,436 Speaker 2: Our editor is Julia Barton. Original scoring by Luis Kira, 513 00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:56,556 Speaker 2: mastering by Flon Williams, and engineering by Martin Gonzalez. Fact 514 00:32:56,596 --> 00:33:00,196 Speaker 2: checking by Amy Gaines. Our voice actor in this episode 515 00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:04,476 Speaker 2: was Melina Rose. Special thanks to the Pushkin crew had 516 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:09,436 Speaker 2: a Fame, Carly Mcglori, Maya Knig, Daniello, Lacan, Maggie Tayler, 517 00:33:09,876 --> 00:33:14,996 Speaker 2: Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Jason Gambrel, and of course Jacob Eisberg. 518 00:33:15,556 --> 00:33:26,196 Speaker 2: I'm Malcolm Blama. Don't forget my latest book, The Bomber Mafia, 519 00:33:26,476 --> 00:33:29,636 Speaker 2: which is an expansion of several episodes from the last 520 00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:32,796 Speaker 2: season of Revisionist History. You can find it wherever books 521 00:33:32,796 --> 00:33:37,356 Speaker 2: are sold, but by the audiobook at Bombermafia dot com 522 00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:39,796 Speaker 2: and you'll get a bonus listener's guide, and you can 523 00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:42,236 Speaker 2: listen in the podcast app you're using now