WEBVTT - What to Know About Walter Travis (ft. Brian Schneider) 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.920 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.040 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:06.400 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.080 In a brid egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.840 Frida Egg, fridagg bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:37.560 run off the golf course. Welcome back to another edition 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.159 of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is one of 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.519 our architect profiles. We are going to dig deep into 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:50.640 the work of Walter Travis and to talk about Walter Travis, 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.360 I have Brian Schneider joining me. He's been a longtime 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.200 lead associate at Renaissance Golf. He also does his own 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:03.400 solo work. You will be probably seeing a lot more 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.320 of Brian Schneider work in the years to come. Right now, 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:11.080 he is he's busy building a eighteen hole design with 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:16.000 Blake Conant at Old Barnwell in Aiken, South Carolina. But 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:21.119 in terms of Walter Travis, he's done in extensive restoration 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.280 work at a few of Walter Travis's golf courses, including 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.880 Hollywood Golf Club in New Jersey Garden City, which is 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:33.959 a devereue. Emmett and Walter Travis Design North Jersey, which 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.160 he is actually doing right now, a restoration of and 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.760 Round Hill. So he has seen all but one of 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:47.000 the Walter Travis courses that are left according to him, 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:51.160 and no better person to talk to about Walter Travis, 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.600 you know from a also you know, just building features, 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.440 but the you know, the architecture of that made him unique. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.720 We talk about Walter Travis here and it was a 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:09.160 real fun conversation. So without further ado, here is Brian Steider. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.840 All right, Brian, we're here to talk about Walter Travis. 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.560 I think you know, this is an architect that I 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.200 got a little bit deeper into the weeds on this year, 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.600 saw a couple more of his courses. I've seen a handful, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:36.760 and I know you really respect the man, respect his work, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.880 and I think sometimes it even shows through in a 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.800 little bit into your work, some of the things you 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:48.600 might see from you you see in Walter Travis's work. 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:49.120 You know. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.400 My first question has to be, if Walter Travis was 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.960 around today, do you think he'd go by Walter or Walt. 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.320 I think he was a Walter. I think he was 0:02:59.360 --> 0:02:59.680 a Walter. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.320 Brilliant question though, I kind of think he'd be walled. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:05.440 I think he'd go that wall. 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.160 You can't go wrong with either one. Really. 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:08.360 Yeah, it's good. 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.359 It's a good dance. That's win win. 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.440 Tell us a little bit about background, obviously you consult 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.239 at a number of Travis clubs, And tell us a 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.960 little bit about the guy and how he got into 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.560 golf and what you know about his background. 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.320 Yeah, I'm not a biographer, but you know he was. 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:32.000 He was born in Australia eighteen sixty two or something 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.400 like that, moved to the States as a pretty young 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:40.960 guy in eighteen eighty six or so. Took up golf 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.640 nine or ten years later, when he was thirty four 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.520 years old. I think it was a pretty athletic guy. 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.280 But yeah, took up golf grudgingly as I understand it, 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.720 at age thirty four, and you know, four years later 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.680 won the first of his three US Amateur Championships nineteen 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.760 oh four. Was the first brit to win the British Amateur, 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.720 which didn't go over very well. He wanted Sandwich in England. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.960 The locals were none too happy about it. I forget 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:14.120 the exact details of kind of the trophy presentation or 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.960 whatever the fact or whatever. You know, the ceremony was 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:23.120 after he won, but the fellow presenting his trophy was 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.960 none too kind to him in that in his little speech. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:28.760 I don't think the locals treated him all that well, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.520 at least according to Travis. But in any case, Yeah, 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.120 he was the first non brit to win that important 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.480 title at the time. He won it using the Schenectady putter, 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.839 which was a mallet putter kind of center shafted that 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.600 was banned by the RNA not long after that. 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:44.360 Wow. 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:49.480 Yeah, yeah, they they banned the center shafted putter. You 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.880 wouldn't say it was necessarily directly retaliation against his win, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.039 but but you wouldn't discount that neither. 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.240 They've done some things to Bryson that might some might 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.640 say or sim you know, he starts doing one thing 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.679 and that it's banned a couple of weeks later. 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.479 Yeah, I guess it's uh has a long history of 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:08.839 such things. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.880 Maybe maybe Bryson will become the next Walter Travis golf 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:13.760 architecture too. 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.960 Tra Travis was like the Shambo in that way. I mean, 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.720 he was always experimenting with different equipment, and you know 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.280 he was I feel like he was one of the 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:29.480 first guys to adopt the haskellball for competition when other 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.240 folks were very sternly against it. And I think that 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.960 those things, especially the schonenectady, I think that led to 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.320 his falling out with McDonald. Actually he was he was 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.960 pretty tight with Cebe McDonald early on. He was very 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:48.160 much involved in the planning and development of the National 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:48.920 Golf Links. 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.719 Is that how he started playing was because of Cebe 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:53.160 McDonald's or you. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.640 Know, no, you know, he worked when he moved to 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.000 the States. He lived in New York City and just 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.160 kind of ran in circle where people played golf as 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.680 a as a social thing and it was a business, 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.040 you know, kind of an essential of business at the time. 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:09.320 In the circles he ran into play golf. So I 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.200 think he took it up just because the folks he 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.120 knew was socialized with were golfers. I don't know where 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.720 the connection to McDonald's started exactly. I mean, they were 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:19.839 both they both spent a lot of time at Garden 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.320 City together along with Emmett and a bunch of other folks. 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:25.680 So it might have been through Garden City that he 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.080 got to know McDonald well. And McDonald honestly respected him 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.080 as a golfer and invited him to participate in the National. 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.400 Travis was none too happy. You know, McDonald was a 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.599 pretty staunch traditionalist, and when it came to the rules 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:44.920 of golf he almost entirely deferred to the RNA completely. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.120 And you know, when the RNA took away Travis's putter, 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.120 Travis wasn't too happy that he didn't have McDonald's support. 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.720 So the two had a falling out. And you know, 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.320 to read McDonald's book now, when he talks about the 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.599 National Golf Links, I don't think Travis gets a single mention, 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.640 but you know, the impression is that he was essentially 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.720 a co designer. You know, he was very much involved there, 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.480 and yeah, I don't know that. I don't know they 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:12.280 ever got back to getting along, which happened with Emmett too. 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.200 You know, he and he and Devereux Emmett were were 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.840 buddies for a long time, and you know, Emmett had 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.760 laid out Garden City. Travis made some changes to the 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:23.520 golf course and they had a falling out perhaps over 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:28.440 some of that work. There's a beautiful letter at on 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.600 the wall at Garden City from Emmett to Travis. You know, 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:36.080 in like nineteen twenty one, I think where Emmett said 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.120 something along the lines of, you know, dear Travis, you know, 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.360 we were once very good friends, and I always regretted, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.679 regretted to our estrangement. Can we not be friends again? 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.920 It's like this sweet, you know, part felt letter, and 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.120 there's there's no knowing if Travis ever responded. But yeah, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:58.120 apparently once Travis was crossed, he didn't didn't let go 0:07:58.200 --> 0:07:59.560 of grudges easily. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.680 Him and McDonald would be a pairing that was just 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:09.320 bound for an explosion. Probably, So I'd never really heard 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.720 of Travis being a co designer of National Golf Links. 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:17.400 And is there something about the design to you, like, 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.400 is there a feature specific, you know, on a hole 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.920 that really like stands out to you like this reminds 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:25.400 me of a Travis feature? 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:31.000 Not really. I mean, Travis was known for his wild greens, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.320 and clearly the National has some of those, But but 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.360 there aren't any greens at the National that I look at, 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.720 and so that was definitely Travis. 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:38.720 You know. 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.720 Yeah, Mike's Cerba. I don't know if you know Mike 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.240 or heard him. Yeah, he wrote a really interesting long 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:51.880 article about that whole saga and how Travis was basically 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.880 just written out of the history of the National by McDonald. 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:57.600 That's a pretty good read if you ever want to 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:58.200 get into it. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.520 Further, Yeah, I will, I'll look into that now. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:07.920 It's uh, it's uh McDonald. The McDonald is a cantankerous fellow. 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.640 And you know you talk about the letter writing. I 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.480 think I don't know if like club histories now, like 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:16.920 when you think about if you go to a lot 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.480 of these historic places and they have in their library 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.280 or their history room these letters that were written by 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.520 architects back to clubs, are those gonna be like emails 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.680 printed out in the future, Like what that's gonna be? 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.800 But it just makes me think like, is uh, you 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.800 know Skokie or you know, uh, North Jersey going to 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.240 have an email printed out from you to them about 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.000 the about the changes that you're making at the course? 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:42.920 That's what not. 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:48.040 Yeah, So if if I was somebody that never seen 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.600 a Walter Travis design, how would you describe it? 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.760 Oh, it's hard to do that with architects, you know, 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.400 just he was a product of the time, So there 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.640 wasn't you know that clearly wasn't my much earth moving 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.160 involved in building his golf courses, but he clearly also 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:09.000 did a lot of work around his green complexes. You know, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:13.920 he packed a lot of contour and slope in typically 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.800 small packages, you know, relative to to modern greens. Especially 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:20.720 you know, he wasn't afraid of blind shots, so a 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.280 lot of his courses featured blind shots off the tee 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.560 or even into greens. But it's hard, you know, it's 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.600 just hard to stereotype any architect that way, but his 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.000 you know, his greens. Definitely there are similarities from one 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.640 course to the next, especially kind of in the heyday 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.120 of his design career. You can go from one course 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.359 to the next and you can definitely recognize the similarities. 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.240 And I suspect that was at least partly driven by 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.440 the people that were building his golf courses for him. 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:49.800 That you know, he did a lot of his work 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.840 in the Northeast, and I presume that you know, he 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.760 took shapers builders from one project to the next, and 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.640 that helped him build the greens that he built, which he's. 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.120 Known with uh with the greens, and I think you 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.800 zeroed in on those. And I think if a conversation 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.960 about Walter Travis, probably like starts starts at the greens 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.720 because you know, they are some of the most unique 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.959 greens that you'll you'll encounter, and uh, you know, I 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.000 think one of the things that I was most struck 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:24.480 by is like how well they handle modern speeds. But 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.439 can you explain, you know, like what it is that 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.240 make Travis greens unique. 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.000 Yeah, I think you touched on that. I mean, the 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:35.280 one of the things I love about them. I don't 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.480 know that there's ever been an architect who's built more 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:42.080 interesting greens, but they do continue that they're packed with contour, 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.000 but they still work really well at today's green speeds, 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.120 which is fascinating. I mean, there are there aren't many 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.040 greens on his courses where it's just a steep five 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.319 percent back to front. You know, where you're gonna you're 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.360 gonna put off the green or if you miss over here, 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.720 you're just dead because you can't keep it on the green. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.880 You know, a lot of his greens are kind of segmented, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.559 and they contain little ridges and backstops and bowls and 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.439 contour around the edges, mounting around the perimeters that kind 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:09.280 of help you stay on the green even if you're 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:10.800 in the wrong section and you're gonna have a hard 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.240 time getting within six or eight feet with your first putt. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.679 At least you're not gonna end up thirty yards down 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.560 the approach in most cases. Again, it's hard to pigeonhole 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:21.439 his greens to him, and there's a lot of variety, 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.440 and that's one of the things that makes them really 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.200 worth study. It's not the same thing over and over. 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.040 So we did have a few greens that you might 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:32.240 even call templates that he did kind of take from 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.360 course to course with him. But you know, a lot 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:37.960 of them feature these broad swales across the greens, almost 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:42.200 beter Ritz like or diagonal swales, little pimpoly mounds around 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.200 the edges. There's just a lot going on. But it's 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.160 fun to see, you know, it's fun to go from 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.000 one course to the next and there's always you know, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.360 if it's a well preserved Travis course, you know you're 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.280 gonna find a bunch of really cool greens and you're 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.000 going to see some stuff you've never seen before. 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.319 Yeah, I think those act like kind of those pimply 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.800 as you just rib them pipli edges around the exteriors 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:07.560 of the greens are are so compelling because of you know, 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.280 when you get the pins over into the edges right, 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.959 they play such an interesting role if you're coming from 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:18.480 the right place. They're almost like helping contours. And then 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.880 when you miss, like in a spot, say that you 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.080 miss it just short right of a front right pin, 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:29.680 you get these really awkward little pitches over and they're 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.920 almost like Maxwell rolls, but bigger, right, would you? 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:35.679 Is that how you describe them? 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.000 Yeah, they're definitely abrupt, you know, they can be very 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.360 pointy and pimply, But you're right. I mean, you don't 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.920 want to short side yourself on a lot of his 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.920 greens because you're often going up and over something and 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.520 trying to stop at in a relatively small section of 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.360 the green before it tumbles down to the next one, 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.480 Whereas if you're missed on the other side, you often 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.120 got a backstop, which makes that that recovery shot a 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.960 lot easier. So yeah, sorting out where to miss around 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.960 his greens is an important part of playing well on 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:05.760 his golf courses. 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.880 This that era of design, to me is so good 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:15.200 because of the lack of ability to move so much 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.760 dirt right, But he was by no means like a minimalist. 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.640 You look at like what he did around greens, and 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.240 there he did significant earth moving around greens in some cases, right. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.640 Oh, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And it's not on the same 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:37.720 scale as Langford and Moreau or rain Or necessarily you're 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:42.960 not not creating these massive pads, but they're you know, 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.119 the contouring does extend out to the approaches and the surrounds, 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.080 and he was kind of pinching up material to to 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.480 create some of them mounting around the edges and to 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.680 give the greens a little bit of elevation. So yeah, 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:55.440 there was there was certainly some work that went into 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.800 his greens. A lot of them aren't just laying on 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.960 the ground like Garden the City. A lot of greens. 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:01.880 I bring up Garden City, but a lot of those 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.440 greens aren't his. So I didn't mean to make that 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.360 that comparison necessarily. 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.320 With him not building everything up. 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.600 But you brought up Rainer and lang for Moreau, and 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.040 you know, Charles Banks would fall into this about too, 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.040 where they a lot of their work was greens were 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:24.640 built up. What advantage of keeping things on the grade 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:29.080 did that provide Travis at the Green more often? Obviously 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.240 he built some greens up, but like you. 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:35.120 Know, yeah, I love Langford of Moreau and I really 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.600 like Rainer's work. But you know, I think one of 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.720 the drawbacks of Langford's work is that it's not necessarily 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.360 well suited to the ground game. You know, a lot 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:46.720 of the approaches there are some pretty abrupt rises into 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.200 the green where you're just better off flying it out 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.200 of the green. And Travis was not like that. I 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.480 mean to me, his greens are asking you to land 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.440 them all short and run it. On a lot of cases, 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.320 Tom Simpson was kind of the same way, and Willie Park. 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.960 You know, it's there are similarities to the old course, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.840 and then a lot of times there's an abrupt but 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.680 very manageable contour at the front of the green, you know, 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.560 a false front that's two feet high instead of on 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.400 a rain or Langford course where it's six rate feet high, 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.480 just asking you to land it short and climb that 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.160 little contour and then stop it on the backside. So 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.280 I think it's very much geared towards running approaches and 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:31.760 thinking about using the ten twenty thirty yards short of 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:33.560 the green to get your ball close, especially the front 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.040 hull locations, and that's what I love about it. It's 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.720 he asks for different shots into his greens, and a 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:41.520 lot of architects do. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.760 Yeah, I feel like you can build a little bit 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.600 more variety in too right, you know. Like one of 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.400 the things that is, I think a lot of his 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:57.040 greens are kind of deceiving where they can kind of 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.640 run away or you're putting uphill and you feel like 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.760 you might be putting down like there, and I think 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.880 this might be and like I'm just you know, kind 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.240 of rubbaging off the top of my head here. But 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.960 those things he created on the exterior, the big slopes 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:19.119 on the edges of the greens almost obscure the way 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.560 you see the smaller stuff in the green. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:23.879 Does that make sense? 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:28.080 Yeah? Yeah, I think they can make reading puts confusing you. 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.600 It's almost like when you're building greens on hilly ground, 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.959 the stuff you're seeing in the background can throw off 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.920 your impression of what the what your put's going to do. Yeah, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:40.800 And he wasn't afraid to build greens that fall away 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.119 or whole locations that are dead flat. And you know, 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.240 I don't necessarily know the routing was his strength, but 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.320 he did have a pensiant for you know, routing hole 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.560 up and over a hill and then just benching the 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.400 green on the backside, you know, lift up the back 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.919 of the green six feet to hold it in, but 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.600 everything's still falling away, and if you land on the green, 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:03.840 you know you're gonna have a hard time stopping it. 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.480 So a lot of times, like the tent that scrant 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.440 is a great example. Yeah, you've got to be thinking 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.520 about landing it well short of the green, just letting 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:13.400 it trick along and hope you don't fall off the back. 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.560 That's pretty cool. You don't see that from a lot 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.919 of architects, and that's something he'd like to do fairly often. 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.240 That might be like an example you mentioned like there 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.480 were there's some common green slash holes that you've seen 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.080 across his body of work. 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:30.680 Are there any? Are there? 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.719 What are some that come to mind that have you know, 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.480 some shared similarities. I don't want to use the word template, 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.439 but maybe some common hole designs and what those look like. 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.600 Yeah, he often did a riff on the beer ritz. 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.480 You know, a swale, not usually as deep as what 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.800 Rainer would have built, but you know, just a soft 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.320 swale running across the center of the green or or 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.840 oftentimes at a bit of a diagonal. That was something 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:57.680 you see on almost all of his golf courses, and 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.840 you know, oftentimes it's arranged a little bit differently. It's 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.760 the configuration of the rest of the green varies from 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.440 course to course, but the diagonal swale across his greens 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:09.440 is something you see quite a bit. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.800 Be like country Club at Troy's twelfth Hall have something. 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.720 Like, yeah, that's a good one. And he built you know, 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.840 kind of a maiden style green on a number of 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:22.879 courses too. You know Miss Squamicat, I don't know if 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.960 you've been Miss Quamakat in Rhode Island. It's you know, 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.920 a bunch of guys worked there, including Rayner and Ross 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.240 and Travis. At some point they mighted Travis on to 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:36.600 take a look around, and the fourth green there, He 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.200 and Ross were buddies. They work together a bit of Pinehurst. 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.480 Travis takes credit for Pineher's number two and some article 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.080 or a letter, so I don't know the extent to 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.920 which that's true, but he and Ross certainly knew each 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.680 other well. But the fourth green and Miss Quamaicat, which 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.600 theoretically is a Ross course, you know, is a very 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.679 much a splitting image. Spitting image of kind of a 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.440 maiden style green he's built elsewhere. It's you know, there's 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.200 kind of a high crown at the front, a swale 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.359 running across the middle, and then two little pads in 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.600 the back divided by a swale. That's a green I've 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.400 seen more than once. I'm at North Jersey Country Club 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:18.919 right now and there's seventeenth. There's a dead ringer for 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:19.959 the fourth and Miskwamika. 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.119 That's that, yeah, I mean, and most probably would have 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.359 you know, I didn't know Travis worked there or even 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.000 you know, had been there. And it's like you'd probably 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.560 think that's a Rainer because Rainer built maiden greens, right. 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.359 Yeah, but it's about half the size of what Rainer 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.879 would build a lot packed into a little package. That 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:42.600 The seventeenth here at North Jersey's at the end of 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.760 a reasonably short par five. But it's all the work 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:48.359 you can do to get up and down if you 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:48.920 missed the green. 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:51.720 I think that's the thing you hit on is the 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:56.040 size of these plateaus, right, And people probably think of 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:01.280 like a Rainer green with plateaus, they're really big. I 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:05.320 think this shocking thing about the Travis ones is sometimes 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.200 how small they are and it's like, wow, you got 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.320 to hit like I mean, they're so abrupt coming up 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:15.159 and then there's just this little paddock of space and 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:20.280 it's totally achievable, but it's extraordinarily difficult to do, and 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:22.560 when you miss it leads to a lot of really 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.600 fun shots. Whether you're putting up onto it, you know, 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.199 trying to get it up on there, or you're chipping 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.520 from around the green it opens up. I mean, do 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:33.600 you land it kind of into the slope, do you 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:35.520 land it short of the slope, let it run up, 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.159 do you try and hit a higher shot that lands 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.719 up on the slope. It's really I think, you know, 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.520 when we talk about how it has stood up the 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.360 test of time. The thing with the greens is they 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.840 have these these vicious slopes, these you know, really abrupt slopes, 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:58.000 but then there's such pockets of flat area. But they're small, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.040