WEBVTT - Kimchi: A Song of Salt and Cabbage 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.640 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.439 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.840 it's fermentation day here at the Stuff to Blow Your 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.720 Mind podcast. We're gonna be talking about kim she one 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.800 of my favorite foods of all time. Uh. And also 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:27.720 later in the episode, just wanted to give you a 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:29.639 heads up. Robert and I are going to chat about 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.200 kimchi for a while first, but later on we're gonna 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.680 be speaking with a bona fide fermentation expert from a 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:40.000 Tufts fermentation lab. Her name is Dr Esther Miller, and 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:42.240 it sounds like she's got one of the coolest jobs 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.040 in the world. Yeah. Given the title we went with 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.120 here kim che a song of salt and Cabbage, I 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:50.160 guess it's a missed opportunity for us to have done 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:54.960 some sort of um Wester Ross themed cold open skit 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.880 about about kim she Well, I guess the real prince 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.440 was promised in the story is the lacto Bacillus bacteria 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.120 and and he must come in order to rescue the fermentation, 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.039 for the jar is dark and full of spores. That's 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.480 pretty good. But of course you know there's some there. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:16.600 There has to have been some pickling and from and 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.840 or fermentation in the west Ro's books, because it seems 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.080 like they were always lengthy descriptions of what kind of 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:26.479 foods uh of characters were eating. Yeah, but a lot 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.960 of it is I think like a classic Anglo cuisine inspired, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.200 which is is actually very low. Well, I don't want 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.440 to be insulting, I would say at least the perception 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.400 is that it's relatively low on on spices and and 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.920 complex flavors. It tends to be a rather bland cuisine, 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:48.600 kind of focused on grain, meat and dairy. All right, 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:50.360 But then I do we do have to to point 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.680 out that, I guess there was beer, there was cheese, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.560 there was bread. And that's one of the reasons that 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.680 fermented foods are so fascinating because there there are these 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.120 things that we often forget are fermented, like cheese and 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.400 bread and chocolate, and then we have these fermented um, 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.400 you know, staples of various fermented goods that you're going 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.800 to have in your your kitchen. And also some of 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:16.040 the more um elaborate examples. For instance, Uh, there's the kivak, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.880 which is a traditional Inuit food from Greenland in which 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.359 little ox These these little birds are caught and then 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.679 fermented in a seal skin that's buried beneath rocks. There's 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.080 a great feature on this in the documentary series Human 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.320 Planet that came out several years back and was at 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.040 the time narrated by John Hurt. I gotta admit, as 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.359 much as I love fermented foods, I have never tried 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.560 that one, and a lot of the fermented foods that 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.080 I've never really gotten into, or the various kinds of 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.600 fermented meats and dairy products from around the world, which 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.720 are extremely common. Though I think fermented vegetable dishes such 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.240 as kim she have seen more of an international renaissance 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.680 and in recent years. Yeah, I feel like when I 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.760 was a kid, I wasn't as exposed to as many 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.960 fermented food aside from these obviously fermented foods, you know, 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.880 like they I remember being you supposed to sour kraud 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.600 but not really digging it for a long time. But 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:11.520 but now, well, you know, is that is that a 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.919 good or a bad? Uh? I'm just I'm just so 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.560 sorry for your deprived childhood. I mean, I I can 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.160 remember loving sour kroud as long as I had. One 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.960 of my earliest positive food memories is actually a memory 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.440 of eating a half sour pickle. Um. Yeah, I just 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.360 I don't know, it's it's always been there for me, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.239 the love of especially like fermented pickled vegetables so good. 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:36.280 I think I just had kind of work up to it, 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.400 like some of those strong flavors, Like there was some 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.920 sort of German um oh, some sort of purple cabbage 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.280 type thing that I also didn't have a real strong 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.400 uh attraction to at the time. But all these things 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.160 have grown on me today. I love sauer kroud, and 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.640 I love kim she. I love exploring the various fermented 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.960 veggie or mushroom items you'll find uh in various cuisines. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.520 And my son, who is eight now, he's been pretty 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.320 pretty into all things fermented pretty much his whole life, 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.920 as long as they're not actually spicy. That's where he 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.600 has a little more to struggle. But ultimately, I don't 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.000 know how much of this is his nature versus nurture 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.560 with him though, Yeah, I wonder about that too, because 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:20.400 for minute vegetables, definitely they can have strong kind of 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.560 unfamiliar flavors and aromas that takes him getting used to. 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.000 So I would imagine that having a taste for fermented 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:32.000 foods is somewhat learned. Though then again, I wonder if 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.400 there could actually be an instinct, or at least a 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.800 slight predisposition that humans would have to find certain kinds 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:43.080 of smells and flavors associated with vegetable fermentation appetizing, since 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.160 this could be a possible vector to get useful gut 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.800 bacteria and other beneficial microbes that I think there's good 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.640 evidence that a lot of these good microbes do actually 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.839 survive the digestion process and and can help recolonize the 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.520 gut with with beneficial bacteria. And then of course having 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.680 healthy gut bacteria could provide some kind of survival advantage. 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.080 So I wonder it's it's possible. I can imagine that 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.880 there's some kind of instinctual predisposition that animals that like 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.359 humans could have uh to to find these smells and 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.200 flavors appealing. And another thing I would say is that 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:20.120 you can contrast the appealing or at least potentially appealing 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:24.520 smell of fermented foods like kim chi or yogurt with 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.919 the smell of food that's rotting due to an unambiguously 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.320 unfriendly micro But in these cases, our visceral reaction to 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.640 the smell, I think it's much different. It's sort of automatic, 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.280 instinctive revulsion. Uh. You know, some people might be grossed 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.320 out by the smell of kim chi or sauer kraut. 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.400 But I think that negative reaction is qualitatively different than 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.400 the like, you know, hot garbage kind of reaction people 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.200 have to the smell of like real dangerous spoilage in foods. Yeah, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.520 like the like the actual like dead animal smell which 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.599 really connects with us on a on a primal level, 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.120 Like when you smell it, you it. You not might 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.080 not be able to summon that smell in your head 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.520 right now, but it's undeniable when you encounter it. Um 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.919 And now I've I've I've read some different things about about, 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.599 you know, kids and flavor, just through I think virtue 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.200 of of being a parent. I know, there's the the 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.200 argument that you know, since a child has a smaller 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.000 body and is more susceptible to the dangers of of poisons, 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.039 that that they are going to be overly sensitive to 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.520 certain strong smells or flavors. UM. And there's also this angle. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.039 I've not done any like full research into it, and 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.040 perhaps this would be a topic for the future, but 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:41.239 I know that biopsychologist Julie Manila has researched the topic 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.679 a bit regarding uh, you know, uh, whether we're born 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.919 with certain food preferences in mind. And she has some 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.800 work that shows that food preferences may be developed in 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.440 the womb or during very early life. So we're talking 0:06:55.480 --> 0:07:00.520 prenatally and postnatally, involving both the amniotic fluid and rest milk. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.640 So if I'm understanding it correctly, the diet of a 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.920 child's biological mother can influence the child's taste later on. Yeah, 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:10.320 that would not be surprising to me. I mean, I 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.800 think a lot of things from the from the parents 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.000 environment can come through to the child like that. Um. 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.440 But another thing, you know, I'm thinking about with with 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.000 people's taste for fermented foods is that it could be 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.280 a psychological framing issue. You know, We've talked before about 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.360 the research showing that people you can take the same 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.160 smell and that people might find it appealing if you 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.680 blindfold them and tell them the smell is coming from 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.040 a cheese, but find it disgusting if you blindfold them 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.200 and tell them it's coming from a sock. Uh. For 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.000 people on a Western diet who are unfamiliar with kim 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.840 chie or with other fermented vegetables and find the smell 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.480 off putting, it's possible that it's you know, that it's 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.800 similar aromas that they would find appealing if they just 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.240 had more of a reason to associate them with, say 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.720 the idea of vegetables, because like some of the aromas 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.760 that come off of kim chi can smell kind of cheesy, 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.120 and that's a strange thing to smell coming off of 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.840 vegetables if you're not used to it. Yeah, I've I 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.280 think I've voiced a similar thing with Durian fruit before. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.680 Durian fruit, of course, is is beloved in many parts 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:19.320 of the world, but sometimes is less appreciated, certainly in 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.280 Western circles, and I think part of that is, like 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.200 if my my take anyway, is that if you approach 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.119 the Durian as being a cheese and not a fruit, 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.680 then then that's going to dismantle some of these associations 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.319 you you make, because when you take in the aroma 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.560 of the Durian fruit. You might think, well, that that 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.720 doesn't smell like I expect a fruit to smell. I'm 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.439 more accustomed to a really sweet smell with a fruit 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.880 or something much milder. But if you approach it thinking cheese, 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.840 then I think you're in a better position to enjoy it. Yeah. 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.000 I think that's a really good point, and it almost 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.640 makes me wonder if there is there a certain kind 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.280 of meditation practice that has been honed in order to 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.960 ready the mind to exp orient's new flavors and aromas 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.400 as pleasurable when you're not used to them. I wonder 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:07.560 if there is such a thing. I think maybe, yeah, 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.079 maybe just a general sort of centering of the self 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.800 is probably would probably be helpful in those cases. I 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:16.160 do want to point out to the in terms of 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.280 Durian fruit, I don't have a lot of experience eating 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.760 Durian fruit, so anytime I have encountered it, I am 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.520 very much I feel like encountering it as an outsider 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.880 to like regular consumption. So I would love to hear 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.360 from anyone out there who is, like, you know, grown 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.079 up with Durian fruit and how you like, because ultimately 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:34.480 my whole think of it as a cheese and not 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:38.520 a fruit thing that maybe entirely based as well. In 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.920 my situation as kind of a Durian outsider, yeah, I 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.800 can see that. But obviously, I mean, tastes that were 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.400 once unfamiliar to us can become very very central to 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.280 our way of experiencing food in the world. I mean, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.520 so I grew up loving pickled vegetables, but I did 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.240 not um, I did not grow up with kim chi, 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.360 and now kimchi is one of my favorite foods. I mean, 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:01.520 if you you like pin me down and said, like, 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.840 you know, uh, if you could only eat one kind 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:06.640 of food the rest of your life, what would it be. 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:08.920 I would try to reach for something like, well, something 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.520 that could be served with bonsch on, you know, all 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.840 those little dishes like Korean side dishes of various different 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.200 vegetable preparations and kimchi and things like that. That's the 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.599 bulls eye for me. That's like the best thing, and 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:25.040 it wasn't always there. So like clearly, our orientations about 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.199 food can change as we mature or maybe I shouldn't 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.679 say mature, just as we go on in life. So 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.040 in terms of just fermentation in general. We'll get back 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.840 more specifically to kim chi here in a bit, I 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.800 was reading a bit about it from fermentation expert sand 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.480 Or Cats. I'm sure he's come up in your research 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.000 as well. Um uh, you know, often cited and had 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:50.079 written several books on the topic. And our crowd king Yeah, 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.800 Cats points out that if you venture into any restaurant 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.559 on the planet, if you dig into any cuisine, you're 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.480 gonna find products of fermentation. And again this includes more 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.640 obvious examples such as you know, the sour crowd and 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:06.640 the kimchi, but it also means bread, cheese, salad, dressing, alcohol, etcetera. 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.640 In fact, you know, he contends that it's hard to 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.560 get through the day without engaging with a product of fermentation. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:18.280 All right, so we're naming fairly disparate seeming food items. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.000 I mean, what do bread and cheese and sauerkraud and 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.560 kimchi really have in common? What? What? What is it? 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.920 What is the core process of fermentation? Well, in a nutshell, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.920 we're talking about the chemical breakdown of a substance by bacteria, yeats, 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.760 or other micro organisms, typically involving uh effervescence and the 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.040 giving off of heat. Most notably, it enables humans to 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.240 preserve food and store it for travel, um or for 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.760 you know, for hard times, and as such it was 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.600 often vital for human expansion into harsher climates. It's something 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.240 a way that you could take your food with you 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:56.960 and it would survive and be edible when you get 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.280 to your destination, or allow you to to have food 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.040 in a destination that is that is harsher, right. I mean, 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.880 one of the big roles of fermentation I think clearly is, 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.640 especially the fermentation of vegetables, is preserving vegetable and products 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.240 through the winter. Uh. The traditional preparation cycle for kimchi 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.240 involves packing it into pots in the autumn that can 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.719 be eaten throughout the winter, I guess throughout the rest 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.640 of the year, when fresh vegetables would be hard to 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:27.240 come by. So, as is often the case with food traditions, 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:32.080 I think many forms of fermentation, vegetable fermentation likely followed 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.960 a path of beginning with a mistake and then moving 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:39.360 to utilitarian innovation as a preservative, but eventually just becoming 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.559 a taste preference, becoming something people liked because it's good. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:44.960 But I also wanted to go back to a note 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.680 you had on the idea of effervescence in fermentation. This, 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.400 this idea of effervescence or bubbling uh this is actually 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.120 one of my favorite things about certain kinds of kim chi. 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.480 It's not always like this, but certain kinds of kim 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.200 chi not only have these great complex flavors and pleasing crunch, 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.840 it sometimes has something you don't find in other solid foods, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:10.480 which is a palpable taste of carbonation in the mouth. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.480 Sometimes kim che can kind of bubble and fizz and 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.640 zing in your mouth while you're chewing on it, the 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.200 same way that a sip of a carbonated drink does. 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:22.680 And and this is one thing I really love that 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.560 this bubbling property of fermentation is also what creates, of course, 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.040 you know the crumb structure, the holes in a loaf 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.400 of bread. But these bubbles are gas given off by 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.360 the yeast and bread as they metabolize the sugar in 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.960 the dough. The effervescent property in uh in kim che, 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.000 of course, is the is the ceo to produced by 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.800 the bacteria as they break down the sugars in the cabbage. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.199 But this effervescent property of giving off bubbles or gas 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:53.240 was actually probably where the word fermentation comes from. It's 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.000 derived ultimately from the Latin word for very, meaning to 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.040 boil or to seethe, and ancient Latin speakers probably would 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.280 have been able to observe that as grape juice sat 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.800 in vats and the natural yeasts turned sugar content into 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.880 alcohol to make wine, you would give off bubbles as 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.160 if it were somehow boiling without an external heat source. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.440 But anyway, so I was reading about fermentation in a 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.000 in a book called the Noma Guide to Fermentation is 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.480 written by the staff of the famous Nordic Cuisine restaurant. 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:26.840 But there there are several ways they point out that 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.480 you can define fermentation, which are basically all scientifically correct 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.920 at different levels of zooming in the first is that 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:38.280 fermentation is the transformation of foods by microorganisms. You let 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.320 the microbes do something to the food. The second is 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.080 that it's the transformation of foods by enzymes produced by 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.880 the micro organisms. Specifically, what they're doing is they're participating 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.480 in the chemical breakdown of molecules in the food. So 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:58.080 they're breaking down long starch chains into different pieces of 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.600 those chains, getting a little different sugar ers and things. 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.800 They're breaking down long protein chains into smaller pieces of 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.480 those chains. But then finally they say it is quote 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:12.440 the process by which a micro organism converts sugar into 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:16.920 another substance in the absence of oxygen and uh and 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.080 as as we know that, there are different microbes that 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.240 are involved in different kinds of fermentation. So for example, 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.000 you've got yeast, which is a fungal microbe. It's a 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.360 fungus and it's the agent primarily involved in the creation 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.760 of bread, but also wine and beer. While the agent 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.240 most important to the fermentation of vegetables like cabbage in 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.720 sauerkraud and kim chi is lactic acid bacteria. And we'll 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.120 get into more detail on that later, but the gist 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.560 is that if you take a bunch of vegetables such 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.760 as cabbage, doesn't have to be cabbage, but this is 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.080 often the vegetable used you put salt on them, they 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.040 will kind of whilt down, release water, create a brine 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:58.040 that's salty in nature, and this salt creates an environment 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.120 where certain kinds of bacteria that or tolerant of salt 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:05.040 can thrive and overtake other microbes which are less tolerant 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.720 of salt, and as they take over these lactic acid 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.280 bacteria further drive out other biological contaminants with the byproducts 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.120 of their metabolism. In the case of lactic acid bacteria, 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.160 as they eat the sugars and the vegetables and the brine, 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.800 they excrete lactic acid, which of course is an acid. 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.720 It lowers the pH of the brine. It acts as 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.960 a preservative, so it inhibits the growth of other microbes, 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.200 kind of like if you had added an acid directly, 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.320 like if you added vinegar or some of their acid 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.400 to pickle your food. Except a major difference is that 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:41.320 the flavors that come out of the bacterial acid production 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:45.160 process are so much more complex and rich than the 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.320 sort of one note flavor of a simple dash of vinegar. Now, fermentation, 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.080 of course, uh as I think is already coming out, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.920 occurs without human intention all the time. No humans are 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.880 required for this, and examples range from the fermentation a 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:05.720 fallen fruit to the inturic fermentation inside a creature's digestive system. Yeah, 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.720 and this is actually an evolutionary adaptation. Terreic fermentation is 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:15.360 really interesting. So it is a symbiotic adaptation involving multiple 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.440 different species working together, and it's used by many animals, 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.639 including ruminant herbivores like sheep and cattle and camels, and 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.800 it allows them to survive on a diet of tough, 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:31.360 cellulose riddled plant matter that animals like us simply couldn't digest. 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:32.840 I mean, if you and I go out and eat 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.359 a bunch of grass. My dog tries it sometimes, but 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.640 I don't think it really helps them all that much. 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.080 Um and we we we just would not be able 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.520 to get much energy out of it at all. But 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.360 there's an advantage to surviving on a diet like this 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.520 if you can. Obviously, tough plant matter like grass is abundant, 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.280 it's easy to capture, there's lots of it. It doesn't 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.880 run or fight back, but it's just hard to get 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.480 useful chemical energy out of it. So animals with natural 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:03.240 enteric fermentation and use the help of a cultivated microbiome. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:07.199 They have chambers in their digestive system specifically for the 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.560 microbial breakdown of tough plant matter, and it transforms all 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.000 that grass and stuff like that into simple sugars that 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.560 can be easily used as energy by the animals. So 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.040 it's almost like these room and at herbivores have a 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.159 kim chee jar inside their digestive system. But you know, 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:25.840 if you've ever tried to make kim chee at home, 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.879 which I am doing right now, one thing you know 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.080 is that as the fermentation happens, you either need to 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.720 have a ventable lid on the jar that will allow 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.119 gas to escape, or you need to burp it frequently. 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:40.800 You need to take the top off and let the 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.560 gas out, or pressure can really build up with some 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.160 disastrous consequences, which we can talk about at a little 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.760 more later. And a similar thing actually goes on with 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.320 animals that undergo terreic fermentation because these room and at 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:57.200 herbivores end up having to burp out an awful lot 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:01.720 of byproduct gas, generally methane, and in large enough quantity, 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.920 which is generally the case with say cows that are 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.280 that are that are raised by humans, that actually adds 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.440 up and has an impact on climate. Yeah, that's absolutely right, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.720 And in fact, I know they're ongoing projects to try 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:17.760 to fiddle with that, to say, like, can we actually 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.360 get down the level of methane that is exhaled by 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.920 these room and herbivores by making certain tweaks to say 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.760 their gut microbiota or to there or to exactly what 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.240 the sugars in their diet are and things like that. 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.280 So that's cows. But when it comes to humans, and 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:37.080 specifically when it comes to the intentional use of fermentation, 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:43.640 of the fermentation process, this is widely considered a Neolithic technology. 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:45.800 We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.880 we will dive into what we know of the history 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:56.320 of fermentation. Than all right, we're back. So Robert, you 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.360 you've teased us about the history of fermentation, saying that 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.800 intend channel use of fermentation of foods by humans is 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.160 something that goes back to the Stone Age, the Neolithic era, right, 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.400 you know, at least uh So. Evidence of fermented beverages 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.840 in China, for instance, seemed to date back to the 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:17.760 seventh millennium BC, based on evidence from a Neolithic village 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.480 in Henan Province uh and this this evidence revealed a 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:25.119 a fermented mixture of rice, honey and fruit. This was 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.080 mentioned in um in a in a paper titled Fermented 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.399 Beverages in pre and Protohistoric China from P and A. 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.680 S Uh in two thousand four written by A McGovern 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:36.680 at all and then I was also looking at a 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.879 two thousand and sixteen study from Adam Bothius in the 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.760 Journal of Archaeological Science, and that puts a date on 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:49.200 Scandinavian fermentation evidence to nine thousand, two hundred years ago 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:54.240 during the early Mesolithic. UH. This would have been processed fish, 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.960 so the idea here is that they were using something 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.919 described as a gutter to ferment fishing and preserving it 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.120 for later. The author discovered evidence of this gutter along 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.720 with vast quantities of well preserved fish bones to support 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:13.040 this argument, and fermented fish products are actually very common now. 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.320 You might not know that you've been consuming them, but 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.480 examples include Worcestershire sauce this is a fermented fish product, 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.360 or of course, Asian fish sauces nonpla. These are made 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.639 by salting fish and then using the extracted liquid that 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:32.040 comes out as the strong, deeply complex salty flavoring agent. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:37.520 Another example would be an ancient Roman food known as garum, 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.840 which was actually in many many ways similar to Asian 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.439 fish sauce. So fermented fish products are are actually in 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.199 wide use around the world today. You might not always 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.919 think about them being the product of rotting fish, but 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.800 or you know, controlled rot, but that's what they are. Yeah. 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.359 And if you want more on garam and in in 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:02.520 various fish fermentation in products sauces, we did an episode 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:06.040 of Invention about ketchup and and how all this ties 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.240 into the history of the product we now know as ketchup. Now. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.520 As for the fermentation of vegetables, that's key to what 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:15.359 we're talking about here with kimchi, and it's believed that 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:20.280 this too came before the agricultural revolution, so before we 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:24.760 were able as humans to harness crop technology to control 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.120