1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly, with the last 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: of the World Cup qualifiers finally upon us, we take 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: a look at the US men's team draw in the 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: overall field, and later we introduce you to the young 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: Spanish star who hopes to step into Rafael Nadal's well 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: worn tennis shoots. But first, Texas A and M's Jimbo 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: Fisher and Alabama's Nick Saban recently got into a very messy, 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: very public argument about recruiting practices. As I senior writer 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: Pat Forty joins us to discuss their feud and how 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: n I L rules have changed college sports forever. It's Wednesday, 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: June one. I'm your host, John Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated 12 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. This is Sports Illustrated Weekly. The 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: date is October eight. Texas A and M at Alabama 14 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: circle it in red, He'll circle it in blood. This 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: is immediately escalated into the most bitter rivalry of two, 16 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: if not ever. On an otherwise unremarkable Wednesday in May, 17 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Alabama's head coach Nick Saban attended a public event in 18 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: Birmingham that had nothing to do with college football, But 19 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: then at one point the conversation turned to name, image 20 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: and likeness rights or n I L and boy did 21 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: that change the tone of the event out of nowhere? 22 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: Nick Saban took a big swipe at Texas A and 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: M and his one time assistant jimbo Fisher. I mean, 24 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: we were second in recruiting last year and M was first. 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: N M bought every player on their team, made a 26 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: deal for a name, image and likeness. All right, we 27 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: didn't buy one player. When Nick Saban says something this incendiary, 28 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: it turns everyone's heads in college football, including SI senior 29 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: writer Pat Forty and Jim bowl Fisher. Then the next 30 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: day didn't just retaliate, he went scorched earth as he did. 31 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: I don't mind confrontation, lived with him a whole life, 32 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: kind of like it myself back and away from it. 33 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: When way I was raised, he went to the point 34 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: where it sounded like he was on the therapist couch 35 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: unloading every resentment and grievance he ever had against Nick Saban, 36 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: some of it quite personal. It's despicable. Did a repartable 37 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: head coach could come out and say this, Well, he 38 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: doesn't get his way or things don't go his way. 39 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: The narcissist and he doesn't allow those things to happen. 40 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: Here's part of what Pat wrote in ne s I. 41 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: He did everything but mobilized the A and M Corp 42 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: of Cadets to march on tuscan Loosa. I've been covering 43 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: college football for thirty two years, and I've never seen 44 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: anything like this. The comments, especially those from Fisher, were 45 00:02:54,240 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: the stuff of a w W E script. Some people 46 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: think their God. Go dig into how God did his 47 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: his deal. You may find out about about a guy 48 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: that a lot of things you don't want to know. 49 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: We built him up to be the Tsar of football. 50 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: Go dig into his past or anybody's ever coached with him. 51 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,839 Speaker 1: You can find out anything you want to find out 52 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: what he does and how he does it. College coaches 53 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: tend to talk a lot off the record about who's 54 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: breaking rules were in vague generalities on the record. Here 55 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: were two national championship coaches very publicly going there on 56 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: each other. When people show you who they are, believe him. 57 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: He's showing you who he is. They've violated the mutually 58 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: as your destruction credo that has long existed in the 59 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: sport where everyone is likely cheating. Coaches could all take 60 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: down each other, which helped enforce a collective silence because 61 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: the retaliatory strikes could be devastating to whoever launches first. Well, 62 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: forget that utterly. The nuclear option has been deployed. You 63 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: can't call me anything you want to call me. You 64 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: ain't call me cheat. I don't cheat and I don't lie. 65 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: I learned that when I was a kid. If you did, 66 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: the old man slapped us out of the head, maybe 67 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: somebody should have slapped him hot my lord, that is 68 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: a lot. It is. Jimbo did what coaches often do, 69 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: is they stopped short of anything specific. Okay, Now, Jimbo 70 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: worked for Nick Saban for four years at l s U. 71 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: They won a national championship together in two thousand three, 72 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: but he didn't quite fully go there because if he 73 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: was on the staff and knew what happened, well, Jimbo, 74 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: what happened. Why don't you tell us. Let's hear how 75 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: God did his deal. Let's hear what happened. And so 76 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: even then and there, as as pointed as that was, 77 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: it was not specific enough to necessarily turn this into 78 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: anything other than wow, that was nasty. Jimbo coached for 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: and with Nick Saban. It would seem to me that 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: they've got this previous relationship. Obviously now that is quite strained. 81 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: But what was it like before? I mean, were they friendly, 82 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: were they on good terms? Did this thing nuke that 83 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: relationship completely? The relationship is knew completely now, there's no 84 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: doubt about that. Jimbo himself Ian said, quote, we're done. 85 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: Have you had any contact with Nick since you just 86 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: didn't take the call? Not going to We're done? And 87 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: he shows you who he is. And then I just 88 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: wanted to as the greatest ever huh. And then I 89 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: just wanted You've got all the advantages. It's easy. They 90 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: at least had never publicly led on that there was 91 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: any falling out or any you know, bad blood between them. 92 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: You can talk to some people who were involved in 93 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: like on that staff at that time, or or familiar 94 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: with the Saban Fisher Dynamics and said, yeah, Jimbo always 95 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of bristled at the Saban, you know, defense Remontra. 96 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: It didn't feel like he got much credit or much 97 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: of a lease to call creative plays when he was 98 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: under SABAN. So I think there was a little bit 99 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: of that, but we didn't really know about until all 100 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: of this spilled fourth. So Nick Saban goes after Jimbo Fisher. 101 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: But it wasn't specifically and solely about Jimbo Fisher. He 102 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: was trying to make a broader point about n I 103 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: L Name, image, and likeness, writes, this whole thing has 104 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: gotten incredibly messy. They have, I mean, everything's been turned 105 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: on its ear, and the grown ups aren't handling it 106 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: terribly well. What's basically transpired is athletes can be compensated 107 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: for name, image and lightness. That started on July one. 108 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: The premise was that if you are a star player 109 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: at Alabama, the local pizza place can pay you put 110 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: your name on a billboard or do an advertisement for 111 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: them or whatever. But that is quickly morphed into collectives 112 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: now that all these schools have put together, where you're 113 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: basically just compiling a war chest of money. The collective 114 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: is an outside marketing agency that's funded by alumni, and 115 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: they give this collective millions of dollars, and that marketing 116 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: agency then funnels it to the players, and the coach 117 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: actually knows how much money is in the collective, so 118 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: he knows how much he can promise every player. Texas 119 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: A and M no matter what jimbo Fisher says. It 120 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: is widely believed that they signed the number one recruiting 121 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: class largely because they had a humongous war chest of 122 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: collective money. They have collective I know that's a collective here. 123 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: I don't know who's got what, Winns got what, had 124 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: no idea last year. I just say that's by design. 125 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: You're saying, hey, I'm staying out of this. Yeah, I mean, 126 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: am I gonna? I mean, I have no sponsorships and 127 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: those things. That's the crux of it is the flat 128 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: out pay for play inducements, and that's what the NZ 129 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: is trying to get their arms around. Nick Sitans trying 130 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: to get their arms around. Everybody's trying to figure out. 131 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's 132 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: a very different thing, and it's different than what the 133 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: n C double A originally intended. It seems like the 134 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: n C double A tried to solve for a problem 135 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: that everybody agreed was a problem, and then they came 136 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: up with this quote unquote solution and it's just really 137 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: gotten away from them. Yeah, and that's why that's the 138 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: story of n C double A legislation. It really is 139 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: like the the list of changes that they've tried to 140 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: make that ended up with unintended consequences is almost endless. 141 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons you n C Double A 142 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: Rules Manual is as thick as a bible, because they 143 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: come up with a rule like, oh jeez, everybody, figure 144 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: out a way around the rule. Now we can need 145 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: another rule. You know. The n C Double A was 146 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: so reactive instead of proactive to compensating players to begin with. 147 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: They fought it and fought it and fought it. They 148 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: got behind, they lost the public relations battle, they gave in, 149 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: and they really didn't structure the new rules very well 150 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: at all. And so this is part of the consequence 151 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: of it is they just kind of threw their hands 152 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: in there and said, well, okay, have n I L. 153 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: Maybe Congress will figure it out for us. Congress hadn't 154 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: done anything, and so what stepped into the vacuum the 155 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: boosters and the programs like, okay, hey, we've got rules 156 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: on the books where players can get stuff. We're just 157 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: going do you think this is sustainable the system? I mean, 158 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: because now this is what we have, right, we have 159 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: that n I L and the n C Double a 160 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: kind of just threw up its hands and said, well, 161 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: maybe Congress will fix this for us. Good luck with that. 162 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: Congress has a lot going on. So what are we 163 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: looking at in terms of college sports as we move 164 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: forward with the system. That's a good question. Is it sustainable? 165 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: Our colleague, Ross Doling, you had a very good story 166 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: on Wednesday talking to Lane Kiffin in the Mississippi coach 167 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: who said, yeah, it's sustainable. People said that the coaching 168 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: contracts weren't sustainable, and they have been. The money is there. 169 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: You no longer have to spend that money gold plating 170 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: your facilities as much. You don't have to sell a 171 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: waterfall in the football facility and a miniature golf course 172 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: and a barber job if you can pay the players directly. 173 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: So I think it is sustainable. You know, it may 174 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: not look exactly like this, There may be a settling 175 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: of the dust, but I think that this model is 176 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: here to stay. In one for more Fashion, we had 177 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: you on a previous episode to discuss a guy named 178 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: Merle Code, who you also wrote about for us I 179 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: dot com. He was a former executive for Nike and 180 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: Adidas and his job was basically two funnel money from 181 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: those shoe companies to college kids who were athletes to 182 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: sort of circumvent the rules that you couldn't pay college athletes. 183 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: He went to prison for basically funneling money from shoe 184 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: companies to college athletes. And you and I had discussed 185 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: how basically he thought all programs were dirty in a way, 186 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: and this was happening, and so what was the big deal. 187 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: He's behind bars because of that, And now the n 188 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: I L Is bringing all of that stuff out of 189 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: the shadows and putting it in front of us. What 190 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: do you think he thinks about all this? Well, that's 191 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: a great question. I'm EARL has to be sitting there 192 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: saying why couldn't name image of light and lightness have 193 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: been on the books four or five years ago when 194 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: I was getting busted for this. So, you know, it's 195 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: wild how things have turned. It really is in terms 196 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: of things that used to be big scandals. You know, 197 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: player gets hundred thousand dollars to go to school X. 198 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: You know, here comes the postseason ban and player in 199 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: eligibility and stuff, and now it's like, yeah, people are 200 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: talking about it openly. Yeah, you have agents putting deals 201 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: on Twitter. This is what my client is getting to 202 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: go to this school. So yeah, the moral codes of 203 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: the world. They lived a little too early in this space. 204 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: If they were there now, things will be a lot 205 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: more equitable. I would say. It reminds me sort of 206 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: of at one moment marijuana is criminalized and the next 207 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: moment you go to the store and it looks like 208 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: it's an apple boutique store and the people who were 209 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: behind bars are out of luck. A and m is 210 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: at Alabama on October eighth, Pat, how's that going to go? 211 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's big and it's interesting. CBS which has 212 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: the sec contract, the main contract and the right of 213 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: first refusal on their three thirty window games, and they 214 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: get one game a year that they can exercise the 215 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: option for a prime time window. It's usually been L 216 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: s U and Alabama. Guess what date they chose the 217 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: eight pm time slot October eight. We think we know 218 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,119 Speaker 1: what game they're putting on. Then that will be absolute 219 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: must see TV, must see TV, can't wait for it? 220 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: Read him on SI dot com. He does not have 221 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: any blood feuds because nobody would dare mess with him. 222 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: Pat forty, thank you for this my pleasure. Pat forty 223 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: wrote the article, Nick Saban, Jimbo Fisher and an all 224 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: out sec war Well link to it in our show notes. 225 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: After a break, a long look at the World Cup field. 226 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: With the final qualifiers being played out over the next 227 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: few days, the World Cup field is nearly set. Luis 228 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: Miguel at You Away from CBS Sports and the Keglazzo Podcast, 229 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: joins us to preview the group stages, the US men's 230 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: national team draw, and the various controversies surrounding the host nation. 231 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: Quitar Luise, Welcome to Sports Illustrated Weekly. Thank you, my friend. 232 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm glad to be back in my alma mater. I 233 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: feel so connected to you already. John, I'm happy to 234 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: be here. Yeah, you're old, stomping grounds, you know the 235 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: lay of the land. This is great. We had to 236 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: get a soccer expert on. We immediately went to you, 237 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: and I think for a lot of US soccer fans 238 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: there was a little worry, a little concern about whether 239 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: the men's team would qualify. They pulled it off, and 240 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: like when the draw happened, that's a big thing. When 241 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: the draw happens, you want to see what group you're in. 242 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: I really like this group for the United States, and 243 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: they're in Group eight with England, Iran and either Whales, 244 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: Scotland or the Ukraine. This feels like on its surface 245 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: that it's them and England that should advance. No, yeah, 246 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I think the first thing to mention 247 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: regarding this specific World Cup I say that there's no 248 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: such thing as a group of death in any of them. 249 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: They're all pretty well balanced. In fact, they're all a 250 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: little bit like groups of involuntary manslaughter. Each one can accidentally, 251 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, ruin somebody's day. And to your point, I 252 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: think when the U s mm T looks at their group, 253 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: and by the way, your listeners should know that I 254 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: have no dog in this fight. Okay, Peruvian grew up 255 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: in England, like you know, my wife's American. That's about 256 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: I've been here for twenty years in New York. So 257 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm very neutral when it comes to the standpoint. And 258 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: when I look at Group B with as you mentioned, 259 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: England around and of course the euro play Off winner, 260 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: it's a doable group. It's a doable group. I mean, 261 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: England is clearly on paper the favorite, and I think 262 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: American fans should know that. But there's no reason to 263 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: not believe that you the U s MT can't get 264 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: out of this and hopefully do something. And the one 265 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: advantage that the U s m NT has in this 266 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: World cop john ahead of any other World Cup before 267 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: this is the fact that now you have players that 268 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: have legitimate European experience. Yes they're very young, but they 269 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: know what it takes to play in the ultimate competition. Politics, 270 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: won a Champions League, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So yeah, it's 271 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: a doable group. It's a good one. So about the 272 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: U s m m T, what do you make of 273 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: their construction so far? I mean, I believe at the 274 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: time of the draw they were ranked fifteenth in the world. Correct, 275 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: So it feels like they're starting to get it together. 276 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: Forever it felt like American soccer was sort of disjointed, 277 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: that it didn't always have a planet, didn't have those players, 278 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, that had that European experience. What do 279 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: you make of this group? I think if I'm an 280 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: American fan of a fan of the U s m 281 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: n T, I should be very excited. With a hint 282 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: of cautious optimism, I think always yeah exactly, which is 283 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: actually difficult to do when you are trying to talk 284 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: to American fans of any sport. To be honest, sometimes 285 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: the optimism lets you get carried away it. Here's the thing. 286 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: The number one objective of Greg Burr Holter and this 287 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: U S M m T side was to qualify to 288 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: the World Cup, something they didn't do for various reasons, 289 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: one of them being overlooking the opponent and thinking that 290 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: they were maybe too big for the shoes to fill 291 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: in Conker Calf. Now they qualified to the World Cup. 292 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: Having said that they qualified to the World Cup, not 293 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: as the top contender in concert that was Canada same 294 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: points that Mexico achieved. The U S MNT reached third. 295 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: So there's something to be said about that. This is 296 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: still a work in progress. So I think it's an 297 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: advantage actually that the World Cup for the U S 298 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: m m T s in November, because now you have 299 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: a little bit more of a window to experiment, to experience, 300 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: play some key competitive friendlies that can help you develop. 301 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: And now the next part of that, John is to 302 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: understand that this squad is young, probably the youngest that's 303 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: entering the World Cup out of any nation, super super young, 304 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: but very experienced and very willing What I want to 305 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: see from between if I'm a U S M and 306 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: T fan, be between now and November is what teams 307 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: am I playing in my warmups and my friendlies. They 308 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: have to be somewhere outside of conker Caff because all 309 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: we've seen for the majority of the time is conker 310 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: Cuff centric teams like your Mexico as your Canada's, even Jamaica, etcetera. 311 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: I want to see you play against europe European nations. 312 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: I want you to play against African nations. I want 313 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 1: to see what you can do there, and hopefully by 314 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: that time, by the time the World Cup comes, then 315 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: the U S M. T has a better picture of 316 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: what they can do. They're young, they're hungry, but boy 317 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: or boy, they are very very relentless or it's gonna 318 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: be exciting to see what they can do. Young and 319 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: hungry and exciting. I'll take I'll take them just being 320 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: in the World Cup because as you mentioned, they didn't 321 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: make it. I want to go back toeen though, because 322 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: you as you mentioned, the favorites are England and that group. 323 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: I was in London, I was in a pub. I 324 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: watched them beat Sweden. It was all lined up everybody's going, oh, 325 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: what if it's France and England in the finals, won't 326 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: just be amazing? And then they lose to Croatia and 327 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: it was devastating, and I'm wondering what kind of ripple 328 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: effect that kind of disappointment has. And then what you 329 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: make of this group? Well, first of all, let me 330 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: just tell you, as a Peruvian who grew up in 331 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: England and now been living living in New York in 332 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: America for twenty years, there is a lot of bravado 333 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: from both sides. Okay. So when the American side thinks, oh, England, 334 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: you think you're so full of it, England thinks exactly 335 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: the same of you, okay, So that just needs to 336 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: be the second thing that needs to be taken into 337 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: consideration is that there is no better pessimists than the 338 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: British media, so already, you know, leading up to it, 339 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: despite looking at that about them, you know, Kate Winslet 340 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: wins the Oscar, and I remember every single newspaper which 341 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: just like did she have to go on and on 342 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: on her speech? It's like one of your country people 343 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: just want an Oscar? Like why are you so upset? 344 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: So you know, there's that that's sort of like everlasting, 345 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: lifelong pessimism that you know England, the facts are there. 346 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: They haven't won the World Cups since nineteen sixty six, 347 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: they haven't won a major trophy since nineteen sixty six. 348 00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: They went to the final in your twenty twenty last 349 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: summ they lost to Italy. We know how that went. 350 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: So England is very cautious about this. I will say though, 351 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: and this is not just me with an opinion, it's 352 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: collectively shared. This is probably the best England team since 353 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: nineteen six six. They're so talented all the way from 354 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: Harry Kane to the midfield which has declin rice even 355 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: at the back when people have question marks over Harry 356 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: McGuire John starts, it's still a very good side and 357 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: they have positions everywhere. Everywhere. We're talking about legitimate players 358 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: like Jared Burrown who plays for West hamp who probably 359 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: maybe might not make it, and he should because he's 360 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: so good. But England is very, very good. England's biggest 361 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: opponent John at the World Cup is England themselves, England 362 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: being their own biggest opponent twas ever, thus the other 363 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: potential teams in that group, Wales, Scotland or Ukraine, anybody 364 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: there that could be surprising. Yeah, it's a little conflicting 365 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: and troubling, right because obviously we have to wait and 366 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: see what happens with Ukraine. There are things life way 367 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: bigger than sports, and it's what's happening to Ukraine. Of course, 368 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: Whales they're good, but they have Gareth Bale, who is 369 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: on his day one of the best players in the world. 370 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: Even at his age. We already know what he did 371 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: in the playoffs to get to here in the first place. 372 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: Scotland I think are living in a really good moment 373 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: right now. A lot of young talented players that are 374 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: coming through. I'm an aston Villa fan, so my you 375 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: know John McGinn, it's just a tremendous place. He's just 376 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: one of many strong players. So any contender in that 377 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: European sector is going to be a tough battle. They're 378 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: they're all very good. I would if I were to 379 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: guess right now, I would say that Wales will make 380 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: it and that will be a very tough opponent because 381 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: Gareth Bale on his day can win a game by 382 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: his arm. As you mentioned, a lot going on that's 383 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: more important than just sports. And with Ukraine and the 384 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: invasion there, FIFA end up banning Russia from this World Cup, 385 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: and at first they wanted to do something similar to 386 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: what the IOC did with the Russian Olympic Committee, which 387 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: was takeaway the flat, I can have them play under 388 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: this different sort of framing, right, And then there was 389 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: so much pressure that they changed that and decided to 390 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: ban Russia. Resurprised by that, I wasn't surprised by any 391 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: of it now, because I just think FIFA, first of all, 392 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: we're just kind of feeling them. Let's not forget World 393 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: Cup was in Russia. Let's not forget Gianni and Fantino's 394 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: relationship with put It in the first place leading up 395 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: from there. So I think that FIFA was just feeling 396 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: the waters to see how the world was going to react. 397 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: And at first, as you mentioned, they were meaning to 398 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: do what the IOC was initially stating, right, which is 399 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: done in the Olympics. That wasn't enough, and actually FIFA 400 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: had to follow suit because it really was countries like 401 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: Poland who said we're not playing Russia, like I'm sorry, 402 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: whatever you think, it's not happening. And that was thanks 403 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: to players as well. Robert Lewandowski, et cetera, saying we're 404 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: not playing them. It's just not happening because this is 405 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: a different thing. We're talking about war here, and that 406 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: followed suit a ripple effect, and eventually FIFA said, yeah, 407 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: well it's not happening indeed. So I'm not surprised by 408 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: how it developed. I'm not surprised by Russia trying to 409 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: go through the Court of Arbitration reports and saying I know, 410 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: we we want to play, and obviously that was upheld. 411 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: So nothing really surprises me when it comes to FIFA. 412 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: And in fact, you know, I wouldn't call him heroes 413 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: in any way, but that's just the way that it went. 414 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: And and again it followed suit to what teams and 415 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: nations did specifically with Poland by stating we're not playing 416 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: you in that play off regardless, and that's what happened. Yeah, 417 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: we talk a lot about the intersection of sports and 418 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: politics on this podcast, and not surprisingly with this World 419 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 1: Cup there's a lot going on. And it's not just 420 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: with Russia invading Ukraine. The host country, Qatar has been 421 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: accused of a lot of human rights and labor abuses, 422 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: and they were they won't be able to hide from 423 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: it either, Luis because they're they're in Group A with 424 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: the Netherlands, and the Dutch manager called it ridiculous quote 425 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: ridiculous for the World Cup to be in Quitar. What 426 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: do you make about the World Cup being in Qatar? 427 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: Obviously FIFA and the IOC have long been accused of corruption, 428 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: but this is a controversial World Cup for a lot 429 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: of reasons. We can't shy away from talking about everything 430 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: that's wrong with selecting Guitar as a host nation in 431 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: the same way that we can shy away from having 432 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: to discuss the tournament. We have to do both. We 433 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: have to and we have to begin, by the way, 434 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: by how Qatar got this ticket to host it in 435 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: the first place, which is already controversial, and then everything 436 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: that followed suit after that you talk about the human 437 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: rights abuse, I mean, it's just tremendously overwhelming to read 438 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 1: just the amount of information that's coming out of there, 439 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: and how immigrant workers have been treated and injuries and 440 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: deaths and so on and so on. It's just awful. 441 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: We have to talk about it, and at the same 442 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: time we have to accept the fact that it's happening 443 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: and it will happen. This World Cup is inevitable, and 444 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: I think that we, as journalists and represent a gives 445 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: of this game, have a responsibility to do both. Yeah, 446 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: you're right, we can hold two thoughts on our head 447 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: at the same time. This is the kind of conversation 448 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: we had with Ben Rhodes about the Beijing Olympics, where 449 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: it's like, yes, the host nation is accused of these 450 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: various atrocities and this is awful and we should absolutely 451 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: discuss it. At the same time, there is going to 452 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: be this sporting event and we're going to discuss that too, 453 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit more about football. There's 454 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: always a group of death, as you mentioned, who's your 455 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: group of death? This time around? They're all tough, John, 456 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: Like I said at the beginning, I hate to use 457 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: this line, but I know I don't hate it. I 458 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: made it. It's a great line. Don't out of it. 459 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: They're all groups of involuntary manslaughter. Like all of them 460 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: have a chance. Like here's the thing. The difference between 461 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,719 Speaker 1: the favorites, your Brazil's, your England's, your frances The difference 462 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: between those favorites and sort of the second tier is 463 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: very thin. Probably the thinnest has ever been. So when 464 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: I look, for example, at a group like Group F Belgium, right, 465 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: the Golden generation of Belgium, Kevin de Bruner, Tibo Cortoire 466 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: La Luco, who haven't won anything yet, it's unbelievable. This 467 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: is their last chance to win anything, Belgium. But then 468 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,719 Speaker 1: the Canada, the winner of conker Cat. They weren't the 469 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: lowest tier. That's disrespectful to Canada. Canada are ridiculously good. 470 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: And then you have Morocco who is no joke in Africa, 471 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: and Croatia who were in the finals in you know. 472 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: Then you go to another group like Group G Brazil 473 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: my tip to win the whole thing, Serbia never a joke, 474 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: Switzerland who did very well in your and Cameroon as well, 475 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,239 Speaker 1: full of loaded talent. It's you can do this with 476 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: any group, John, That's my point. So, yes, there are favorites, 477 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: but when you ask me about a group of death, 478 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: I can't really give you just one. They're all ridiculous. 479 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: I mean Group C at Argentina, who haven't lost the 480 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: game in thirty one matches Mexico who you never know 481 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: what they can do. Poland with Robert Levan that they're 482 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: all just so good. So you know, from that perspective, 483 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: they're all groups of involuntary manslaughter. Yeah, you've gotten me 484 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: so excited. We still have so much time to wait 485 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: for this, but your yours energized as anybody we've spoken 486 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: with about anything on this program. So now all of 487 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: a sudden, I can't wait for the World Cup on 488 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: on five coffees and ready to talk about soccer. Sorry, 489 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: I I love it. So you mentioned Brazil. They've won 490 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: five World Cups. They're always in the conversation there your favorite. 491 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: What makes this particular Brazil teams so good? Yeah, good question. 492 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: I think let's let's talk about some statistics. First of all, 493 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: you Brazil, obviously you know five World Cups, but they 494 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: haven't wonted in a while, right, It's been a long time, 495 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: and they don't do really that well aside from the fifties, 496 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: you know, with pale et cetera. They don't do that 497 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: well when the World Cup is hosted in Europe. So 498 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: this isn't a World Cup in Europe. So that's already, 499 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: like statistically speaking, historically speaking, something that favors him. Coach 500 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: who's been there from t Sien has done a tremendous 501 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: job with this project. We all know Brazilian talent name 502 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: our junior of course, Roberto Fermino. You can go all 503 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: the way at the back where they have you have 504 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: like two goalkeepers who are in like the top fifteen 505 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: in the world. They're all fighting for a spot. So 506 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: now you have talent everywhere. One makes Brazil so interesting. 507 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: And by the way, qualifying to the World Cup, they 508 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: earned a record number of points in their qualifying campaign. 509 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: They didn't lose a single game. They are the real 510 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: deal and they have multiple players in every position that 511 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: are available. Raffinia Vensius Jr. I talked about Nama, Roberto 512 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: Fermino at the back. You of Casamino, one of the 513 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: best midfielders in the world. At the back, you have 514 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: so much talent like Marquinios, Thiago Silva. I mean, they're 515 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: just loaded with talent, and I think they are looking 516 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: at themselves thinking it's time for us to win this 517 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: again and we're not in Europe and it's coach chech 518 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: Is the last campaign. He leaves Brazil after this World Cup, 519 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: so they're romantic. In me also thinks that there's Brazilian 520 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: national teams thinking let's win one for coach. And when 521 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: you look at their group, they'll win the group I 522 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: think Serbia, Switzerland, Cameroon and then after that, you know, 523 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: it's just a knockout competition. I see. And here's the 524 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: other thing, and this is something that we can talk about. Argentina. 525 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: They don't rely on name our junior, name our junior, 526 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: maybe doesn't even start in a specific game. Like that's 527 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: how good they are. They're very, very good. So I'm 528 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: excited to see what they do. You know, you bring 529 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: up Argentina, and that's something that I wanted to run 530 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: past you because you're talking about the romantic and you. 531 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: I love that about you. I feel the same way. 532 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: Looks like the last run for Messi and Ronaldo five 533 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: World Cups apiece. Neither of them have ever won a 534 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: World Cup. Do you give Argentina or Portugal any shot? Well, 535 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: let's make it easy at the beginning. Portugal, I don't think. So. 536 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: They have a lot of talent, not just Christiana Ronaldo, 537 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: you are Felix Bruno, Fernandez. Of course, I mean they're 538 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: they're very talented group, but their biggest that kills hell. 539 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: I feel, and I know it's a bit of an insult. 540 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: Is there a manager themselves because he's he's a little 541 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: too reactive, a little too conservative. Let's read remember how 542 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: they got into this World Cup in the first place. 543 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: They had to go through a playoff, beating North Macedonia, etcetera. 544 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: So it wasn't convincing. They have to face Ghana. Ghana, 545 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: no joke, John like, they're very good, Uruguay who beat 546 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: them in the knockout stages in the last World Cup. 547 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: And South Korea. I mean, if anybody saw what Song 548 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: Hugh and men did, you should be very nervous of 549 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: South Korea. So it's gonna be tough. You know. Getting 550 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: out of the group is one thing. Winning it, I 551 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: don't think so. In terms of Argentina, they have a 552 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: much better chance and they are one of the favorites. 553 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: I would say Brazil, England, France and Argentina is my 554 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: fourth favorite to win this whole thing. The reason why 555 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: I don't put them higher is because Lionel's Colonia, their manager, 556 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: who's been in the setup for a very long time, 557 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: has done amazing things with this team. Just like Brazil, 558 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: they didn't lose the game in qualifiers. They haven't lost 559 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: the game in thirty one matches. But just like the 560 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: U S M and T argument, I want to see 561 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: what they do against European competition as well, because they 562 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: haven't played that many. Leonel Messi, by the way, they 563 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: don't rely on him anymore. There's a thing in Spanish 564 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: and Argentina called Messi that pendencia, where like they depend 565 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: on Leonel Messi so much in games that doesn't happen. 566 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: They don't need him. Obviously they need him, but they 567 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: don't need to put all their eggs in his basket. 568 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: They can do a lot. In fact, Martinez is probably 569 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: their most dangerous weapon. They have a bigger chance. It's 570 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: just that Leonel Scolone has never been in this situation 571 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: being at the World Cup. They've won Copa America, but 572 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: the World Cup is a different thing. So if you 573 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: ask me Messio Ronaldo, who has a better chance of 574 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: winning it, clearly it's Leonel Messi and Argentina clearly Messy. 575 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: What a story that would be too, if he could 576 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: ride off into the sunset finally winning a World Cup 577 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: and just his excellence. I mean, as somebody who really 578 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: enjoys the World Cup and international soccer getting treated to 579 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: one final messy performance would be fantastic. A team that 580 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 1: did not get to the World Cup, Luis and this 581 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: is where I will finish up. Italy fails to qualify again, 582 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: the second straight World Cup they've missed. Explained that everybody 583 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: how shocking this is. It's very shocking. It's extremely shocking. 584 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: It's but in many ways to some it's not that surprising. 585 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: Their relationship with the World Cup recently, it's a little 586 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: bit like Harrie Matheson in Homeland. It's very you know, 587 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: it's all over the place. Honestly, Sometimes you know where 588 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: you're getting and the other time you're scared to death. 589 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: The fact that they didn't make it to Russia in 590 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: ten says a lot. The World Cup before that, they 591 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: didn't get out of the group stages and then they 592 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: go and when you're a twenty twenty in incredible fashion 593 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: and you think, wow, it's at least back Roberto Mancini 594 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: has done amazing things. You have amazing players from all 595 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: over that Atti who plays for Paris and jama He's amazing, 596 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: don't at one of the best goalkeepers in the world, 597 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: Lorenzo and seen all these great you know, Cheeto, I Mobila, 598 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: all these great Italian players and they win your twenty twenty, 599 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: you think, oh, there's no stopping. Then they're gonna make 600 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: it to the World Cup, and they might win the 601 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: World Cup, you never know. And then they face North 602 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: Macedonia unbelievable in like the last moments of that game, 603 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: and and then they're out. You know, Listen, we have 604 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: a lot of good colleagues here at CBS Sports, where 605 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: the rights holders for said, yeah, so Italian football is 606 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: very important to us, and we always ask I always 607 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: ask my Italian colleagues what what do you think it is? 608 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: And a lot of it has to do with development 609 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: in Italy. They're not seeing enough of them. There's a 610 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: lot of very good young players, local Telli, Nico Barella, 611 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: but there's not enough to put Like England produces a 612 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: ridiculous amount. France they're under twenty one team can make 613 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: it to the World Cup. John, Like, that's how good 614 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: friends are Italy. They're like scraping, they're scraping the barrel 615 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: for development in Italian youth. So that's part of the reason. 616 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: But honestly, it's amazing and so shocking the fact that 617 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: the European champions are not going to be at the 618 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: World Cup. It's so wild I mean it was it 619 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: was wilden when they didn't make it and you thought, okay, 620 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: well that's an aberration, but for them to miss two 621 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: in a row, it's just crazy. And as you said, 622 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: they're all over the place. I love a Homeland reference 623 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: even in two perfectly described. This was delightful, Louise. Uh, 624 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: you cover soccer for CBS Sports. Tell everybody where they 625 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: can find you on social and and plug what you 626 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,239 Speaker 1: have going on. No, thank you, John. Yes, you can 627 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at LM that I if you 628 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: don't know how to say my name, don't weren't just 629 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: read it out when you read this uh podcast of course, 630 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: but I host our premium soccer show podcast on YouTube 631 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: show gig O Lasso YouTube dot com, forward Slash Lasso 632 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,719 Speaker 1: and Lasso put on Twitter. But yeah, it's been a blast. 633 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: I love this sport to the death and I can't 634 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: wait to see uh more of the World Cup. This 635 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: was great. As the World Cup unfolds, hopefully we'll have 636 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: you back, Louise. This was a pleasure. Good luck to Peru. 637 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, John, And just one last tip, 638 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: equal or keep your eye on them They are soccer's 639 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: Memphis Grizzlies. They're young, they're hungry, and they don't give 640 00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: an f about anybody. I'm in. This is great, this 641 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: is amazing. We're having you back all the time after 642 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: a break. The Spanish phenomen who might be the next 643 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: big thing in tennis? Oh, listen, such a m cis 644 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: Pas Siska. The fact that a teenager lost at the 645 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: French Open to the world number three Alexander Zeverev not 646 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: that surprising. But the fact that nineteen year old Carlos 647 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: Alcarez was the pre match favorite, well, that tells you 648 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: a lot about the summer Alcarez is having. But don't 649 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: take my word for it. Here from some of the 650 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: players he's beaten this year, starting with Severev, and listen 651 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: closely because you can hear the resignation in their voices. 652 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: Alter us, he's one of the best players in the 653 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: world right now, and I'm pretty sure he's not gonna 654 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: go worse. Both speed was incredible. I've never seen someone 655 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: both so hard. He's the future of men's tennis but 656 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: also present. I think he's un a stoppable. He has 657 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: all the ingredients, he has the passion, he's humbling off 658 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: to work hard. I like him. I wish him all 659 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: the very best. I want to play big buttle, some 660 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: tough bottles, I guess the best player in the word. 661 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: To tell this story, senior producer Dan Bloom called up 662 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: S I S. John Wertheim, who's currently based in Paris 663 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: for the French Open and to begin the summer of Alcarez. 664 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: We actually have to go back to January in Melbourne 665 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: at the start of the Australian Open, the Tennis World 666 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: and the world World was consumed with a snow back 667 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: joke of it's soap opera Would he play? Would he 668 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: be deported? He would be deported. Then Carlos Alcarez shows 669 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: up with a considerably different looking physique he had been 670 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: posting about all of his workout. Part of it was 671 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: the boy has become a man. But I think it 672 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: also just sort of went to the this this guy's 673 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: not fooling around. I'm eighteen years old, but you know, 674 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: I'm taking this seriously. This is someone who already had 675 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: some buzz and showed up to Australia looking like that, 676 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: showing off his guns, and it really did. It did 677 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: not go unnoticed by tennis fans. It also did not 678 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: go unnoticed by his tears cal There's another While and 679 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: moves into the third ran of the histriod Artic That 680 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: was simply outstanding. That was one of the performances of 681 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: the tournament. Interestingly, one of his peers can now be 682 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: counted as Raphael Nadal, a man who also has been 683 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 1: known to rock a sleeveless shirt, who is also from Spain. 684 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: And it turned out to be an absolutely grand moment 685 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: for Rafael Nadal at that very Australian Open. It's the 686 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: Miracle and Malva. It's the titles, one of the greatest 687 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: plays of old time and one of the most improbable 688 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: victories of old time. Australian Open will be remembered for 689 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: for Rough and Nadal, But pretty soon it was Alcaraz 690 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: who sort of took back the attention baton. And you 691 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: know it's funny. I mean, people are there just a 692 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: rivalry and you want to say, well, wait a second. 693 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: Nadal turns thirty six in June. Alcarez just turned nineteen. 694 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: I mean it's literally literally young enough to be his son. 695 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: And yet there are so many parallels the attire you mentioned, 696 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: the viceps, the Spanish provenans, but also I just think 697 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: the way they go about their careers, it really has 698 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the same echoes. When Nadal was exactly 699 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: the same age, he had a very similar effect on 700 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: who was just running through draws well, quite astonishing with 701 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: by young man whose progress was sudle passed so rapid. 702 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: But what one does wear it will all end. Nadal 703 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: is the player to whom he's most often compared, But 704 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: it's another Spanish player, Juan Carlos Ferrero, who really should 705 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: be talked about when we talk about Alcarez, his coach. 706 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: So what is Ferrero brought to the mix? One Carlos Ferrero. 707 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: Were not for Roth, Nadal would probably be one of 708 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: these towering Spanish sportsman. He's a French Open champion, he 709 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: got to number one of the rankings and it's the 710 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 1: sweet smell of victory for the King of clay Clon. 711 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: Carlos Ferrero, he's been out of tennis for a good decade, 712 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: always been very highly regarded as a coach. He coached 713 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: Alexander Zavera. Ferrero complained that all that guy does is 714 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: check his phone. Ferrero had them a much more committed 715 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: and docile pupil and Alcarez, but they really seem to 716 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: get along. They really have a bond Spanish players. They 717 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: speak the same language, they've same sensibilities. Tennis coach is 718 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: always tricky, right, because it's a player out there that's 719 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: actually having to execute. But I think in the case 720 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: of Alcarraz, his relationship with Ferrero and he's he's spoken 721 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: about this, but I think that's really uh strong component 722 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: of this success story. Carlos Alcarez in Indian Wells plays 723 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: a very very tight match against Nadal, comes up a 724 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: little short, but you know, has turned a lot of heads. 725 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: Alcarraz goes to Miami, Nadal's injury, there's no Nadal, there's 726 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: no Djokovic, and wins what's often referred to as you know, 727 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,800 Speaker 1: the fifth or sixth biggest tournament. He masters the Feld 728 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: in Miami, Carlo scars Shine's brightest in the Sunshine State. 729 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: And now heads are are really turned. And he's eighteen 730 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: years old. Can that possibly be right? Here? We thought 731 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: we were pas the age when teenagers could make any 732 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: dand it's such a physical sport. So he's he's riding 733 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: this nice wave after Miami, and then the kid just 734 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,280 Speaker 1: continues to uh justify the height, not least in Madrid, 735 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: his hometown, which is an added bit of pressure. Wait, wait, 736 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: time out. We gotta back up because Barcelona is a 737 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: part of this story too. This guy just came to 738 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: Spain and he's like, oh, that's fantastic. Let me just 739 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 1: destroy everyone and show my home fans what time it is. 740 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: Alcarez has this great success in Miami. All right, well, 741 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: now let's see what he can do back home. He 742 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: goes to Spain. The surface has changed from hardcourt's to 743 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: play and none of it has any bearing on Alcarez whatsoever. 744 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: So callus Alcarez is the two thousand and twenty two 745 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: Barcelona Open Banks sabbadel Champion, Big High five with Juan 746 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: Kondas Herrero. He wins this title twenty one years on 747 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: from Wine. Ranconnell sticks south back into eyes and have one. 748 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: He wins the title in Barcelona and he jumps into 749 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: the pool, jumps in the pool with the ball kids, 750 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: and everybody says, oh, what a lovely guy, and he said, 751 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: wait a second, these are his peers. This is a 752 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: guy who's hanging out with her. It's about time he's 753 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: acting his age. He wins Barcelona the hype is continuing 754 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: to Bubble goes to Madrid, which which is a bigger tournament. 755 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: When Alcaraz turned eighteen, the day he turned eighteen, he 756 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: played the doll in Madrid, and it was framed, Oh, 757 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: here's this dream moment. It's it's make a wish. He 758 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: gets to play the doll and he's not gonna mount 759 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 1: much resistance. But what a fun way to spend your 760 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: eighteenth birthday? Who would thunking? And the doll beat the 761 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: guy handily and they eat cake and everybody's happy. A 762 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: year later, he turns nineteen, same event. This time the 763 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: whole stadium knows that this birthday they're all singing along. 764 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: But he's not here to get a selfie with Nadal. 765 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: He's here to beat Nadal, beat Djokovic, Carlos Alcarez. He 766 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: becomes the first player ever to defeat Nadal and Djokovic 767 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: back to back on the clay court. And then you say, 768 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,280 Speaker 1: how does this kid have anything possibly left physically, spiritually, emotionally, 769 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: how does he have anything left for the final? And 770 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: he ends up beating Alexander Zverev, the number three player 771 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: in the world, and about the time it will take 772 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: us to conduct this interview. Carlos Alcarez is the champion 773 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: in Madrid. It's a second title at this level in 774 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 1: the space of six weeks, an hour of total domination. 775 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 1: Djokovic just turned thirty five, Nadal's gonna turn thirty six 776 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: the first week of June. Roger Federer's next birthday. There's 777 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: a big gap of players who have not been able 778 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: to mount like of a challenge against the big three 779 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 1: for more than a decade. I mean literally ten years, 780 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 1: which is the length of a good tennis career. We've 781 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,799 Speaker 1: been asking who who is the next person that's gonna 782 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: make a dance against Fedder, Nadal, Djokovic, does this the 783 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: guy that's gonna break through? Is this the person that's 784 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: finally gonna, you know, take down the three headed monster. 785 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: I have not seen hype like this, the kind of 786 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: outa rozz that's very rightly generating. This guy is really 787 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: the future of the sport. And it does seem as 788 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: though men's tennis now has the the answer to this 789 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: ten year old plus question of who's going to succeed 790 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: the big three. You have to have a good goal, 791 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: good dreams, trying to follow your dream work high every 792 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: day I think that's the secret. You watch this guy 793 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: play the way he's fearless when it matters, You watch 794 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: the drop shots, and there's a creativity. This is not 795 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: a tennis robot apart from the results, and you can 796 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: look at his match record and you see how his 797 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: ranking is still ascending. But I think a lot of 798 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: this is just the kids different and it's exactly the 799 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: same thing people are saying about Nadal eighteen years ago. 800 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: You can just tell watching this kid has something that 801 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: the others don't. Is he going to number one? I 802 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: don't think he's going to number one by the end 803 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: of the summer, but yeah, he's going to number one 804 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, if these big three hang around 805 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: for five more years, alcare Has is still only twenty four, 806 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: so it's a good time to be buying stock. I'm 807 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: all in. John Worthheim, thank you so much. Thanks that 808 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: was great. That was fun. John Wortheim as a senior 809 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: writer for s I and our resident tennis expert. We'll 810 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,840 Speaker 1: have a link to his dispatches from Roland Garrows in 811 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: our show notes. Sports Illustrator Weekly is a production of 812 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio For more podcasts from 813 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,359 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 814 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows. And for more 815 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: of Sports Illustrated It's best stories and podcasts, visit SI 816 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: dot com. This episode of Sports Illustrator Weekly was produced 817 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: by Cooper McKim, Jessica your Moski, and Isaac Lee, who 818 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 1: was also our sound engineer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom. 819 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Scott Brody and me John Gonzalez. 820 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,720 Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Nolan Schneider. Thanks for listening, 821 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: and if you've stuck around this long, we leave you 822 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: with this. By the way, Louise, is it right that 823 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: you were an actor and you were in a John 824 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: Malkovic movie? I was, Yes, I was an actor for 825 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: fifteen years and then I flipped the switch. I won. 826 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: It's a terrible movie. You can watch it on Amazon Prime. 827 00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: School Mutant Chronicles terrible, but it's it's good, ridiculous cast. 828 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: So it was fun. Berefully