WEBVTT - #044 Jason Flom with Ronald Simpson-Bey 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.840 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.040 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.040 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.600 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.200 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:18.239 I hadn't done anything wrong. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.120 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.720 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.600 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.199 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.520 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.320 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.360 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.280 Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.400 on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:52.320 that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:58.760 This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.200 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm. Today, I 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:21.360 have two people who I admire greatly. Ronald Simpson Bay 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.039 welcome to the show, Thank you, thanks for having me. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:28.360 And Glenn Martin is here. Glenn is a remarkable activist 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.120 and has an incredible story to tell as well. 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.200 So Ronald let's start with you. 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:37.840 You served almost twenty seven years in prison for a 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.080 crime and didn't commit. And what you've done with that 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:47.200 experience and how it's transformed you is something that I'm 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.320 honestly in awe of and so I'm looking forward to 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.280 getting to that. And Glenn, you have a similar story, 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.200 although you were actually locked up for something you did 0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:00.320 do and have turned it into an incredible into a movement. Really, Ronald, 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.480 let's go back to the beginning. You grew up in Michigan. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:03.880 Yes, I did, Flint, Michigan. 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:05.840 How is your childhood? What was it like? 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.640 Let's let's go back like it, you know, back in 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.000 the day before everything went so horribly wrong. 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.400 I think I was born in Flint, Michigan, to a 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:16.720 two parent family. My dad was a school teacher, my 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.960 mom was a homemaker, and I thought we lived a 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:24.040 fairly normal lifestyle, kind of middle upper class. Because my dad, 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.480 he was a school teacher. We got to travel all summer, 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:28.720 we had a motor home. We did a lot of 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:30.200 things that you know, you don't really see in the 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.280 inner city community. So I was exposed to a lot 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:35.480 at a young age. You know, traveled a lot, and 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.240 you know, my dad made sure we were educated and 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:42.240 well learned, but I lived in an abusive home. I 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.320 was the oldest of five children. My dad would beat me, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.720 beat my mom and stuff, and became an untenable situation. 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.000 As a child, you don't realize how dysfunctional it is. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.200 You just feel like it's normal. If you grow up 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.680 so long like that. You know, you get fifteen, sixteen 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:57.840 years old of that, like, well, this must be normal, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:59.000 everybody must go through this. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.040 But later on that wasn't the case. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.639 Yeah, I mean, you don't know any different, right as 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:07.960 you get older, and then you sort of look back 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.080 and you have more experiences to compare it to, and 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.480 then you realize just how wrong that really is. Right, 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.239 and it's a horrible thing to hear. But even then, 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.840 nothing prepared you for what was going to happen, right, 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.720 because it wasn't like you were growing up in a 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.040 gang lifestyle or in a type of situation where you 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.360 were running with a tough crowd and getting mixed up 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.399 in a bunch of problems. 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:33.440 How did it happen? How did you end up in 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:34.639 the system in the first place. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.360 Well, I mean, it's kind of like I said, I 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:40.720 didn't expect this. No one expects us to happen. And 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:42.480 I went to high school, I went to cod With 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.040 to Eastern Michigan. I ran track for Eastern Michigan University 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.920 in the seventies, and I was a tooling diemaker General 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.040 Motors before I went to prison. And in nineteen eighty 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.960 the first really dramatic traumatic event in my life happened. 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.680 My mom shot and killed my dad in the Marylton 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.480 home in front of my two younger brothers and sisters. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:02.839 I was like twenty or twenty one at the time. 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.640 I was married to my first wife and I get 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.160 a call at work one day. My ex wife called me, 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.440 say you need to come home right now. And she 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:12.880 was pregnant, so I'm thinking that, you know, something's wrong 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.440 with the baby. So I drive home. Said you need 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.560 to go to your parents' home. I said, okay, what's 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.599 going on? So I'd make the two or three miles 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.479 drive over to mom and Dad's home and I get 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.360 there and it's like it's pandemonium. Police cars everywhere, Adbulante 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.160 the cracker can't even get down the street because it's 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.520 such a big crowd. And when I finally do get 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.040 to the house, my mom send in the back of 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.440 the cruiser, police cruiser. You're like, what's going on here exactly? 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.080 I'm like, what's going on? And they pulled me to 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.800 the side. They said, well, your dad is in the home. 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.000 Your mom and shot your dad, and they took her 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.560 off and I stayed there until the corner came and 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:49.599 pronounced him dad and removed the body. And that was 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:55.120 July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty and six years to the day, 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.320 July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six, I walked into prison. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.719 My life took almost a perfect spiral. 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.919 Wow, that's a that's a very strange and sort of 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:10.680 horrible synchronicity, you know. And your case is is troubling 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:12.520 for a lot of reasons, but not the least of 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.800 which is that you were arrested and ultimately convicted for 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:17.799 shooting an officer. 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.680 Yes, but that officer changed. 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:25.760 His story over time, right where originally he had said 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:30.320 that you weren't the guy exactly, So you got blindsided 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.240 really when you went to trial, for sure? I mean, 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.960 how could It's so bizarre, Ronald? I mean, you got 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.120 I mean, you lived it. But I'm just sitting here 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:39.840 looking back out it and going wait a minute. I 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.040 can understand a witness changing their story, but the victim, 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.320 I mean going that guy didn't shoot me? Oh yes 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.599 he did. Yeah, you think you'd remember that. You think 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.040 how did they get you in their in their crosshairs 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:52.799 in the first place. 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.560 Well, the case happened on a particular day in October 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.960 nineteen eighty five. My buddies and I were driving around Flinch, 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.919 you know, being knuckleheads. We weren't boy scouts. We were 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.880 driving around doing stupid stuff, and I stopped by a 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.160 place a friend of mine I had sold some drugs 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.680 to to pick some money up, but he wasn't home 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.520 at the time, and it was in an apartment building 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.160 where a lot of drug activity is and it was 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.200 under surveillance by undercover cops. So they saw us leave 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.360 the place and thought we had robbed it. So they 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.520 followed us, and about two blocks away from the scene, 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.200 my buddy was driving my car, say, somebody's following us. 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:28.960 That said, what stopped is probably the guy that owes 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:30.400 me the money. I'm thinking that's who it was. 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:31.000 We stopped. 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.520 I get out of the car. I'm standing there waiting 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.000 for this car to pull up. But as he pulls up. 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:38.960 No one recognizes the guy driving cart one o'clock in 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.360 the afternoon, Z twenty eight Camaro. The guy jumps out 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.200 with a blue jean suit on the hat. We all 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:44.920 had Jerry. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.760 Curls back then. That's how farther back it was. I 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.040 still had hair. Yeah, I had had a Jerry curroll. Man, 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:52.680 imagine that. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.279 But so the guy gets out. He just in the 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.440 car door, squads down and pulled the gun. So I'm 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.160 asking the guy, y'all know who this guy is? No 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.560 one know who he is, And all of a sudden fires, 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.599 he's shooting. The guys in my car shooting at him. 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:07.680 I'm in the crossfire. I'm trying to run and get 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:09.840 out of the way. So I get out of line 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.120 of fires. The guys in my car take off and 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.840 the undercovered car takes off behind them. 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.160 Wait, you got back in the car. No, the car 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:18.960 took off with out me. 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.440 Okay, that's nice, friends, you got there, but go ahead. 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:23.360 Yeah. 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.880 So anyway, I no honor among thieves. 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.160 I guess I started walking because the car. I can 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.040 hear the cars going through the neighborhood, and I can 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.560 hear the shooting because the guys panently, they're shooting. 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:37.920 From my car back at the officers car, and I 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:39.760 go to the garage I worked on cars back. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.440 Then I go to the garage I worked at was 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.680 about a mile away from the shooting scene, and I 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:45.920 get on the phone. I called the guy's girlfriend of 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.480 driving my car. I say, if the guys come buy 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:50.360 the apartment, tell them come pick me up at the garage, 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:52.960 not knowing that, you know, we weren to shoot out 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.840 with police officers. About a half hour later, I called 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.560 her back. She said, they've been arrested by the officers. 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.240 What officers? They were to shootout with police? I said, 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:01.960 oh my god. 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.600 So wait, So you still didn't realize at this point 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.360 that the guys that had been shooting at you were cops. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.640 No, it never announce himself with cops. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:10.080 Wow. 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.080 And what had happened during the car chase scene after 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.600 I had gotten out two miles down a road, the 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.880 cars run off the road and there's a second shootout, 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.160 and that's where that's what actually got he got hit 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:22.480 in the arm and the second shootout. 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.920 So you weren't anywhere near the place, No, it wasn't. 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.360 I mean, this would have been more believable easier to 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.160 understand if it would have happened during the first shootout, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.160 because at least you were there exactly, and they might 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.439 arrested everybody. They might arrested you, and they might, you know, 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:38.160 the confusion. They might have thought you were the guy 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:38.760 doing the shooting. 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.520 Who the hell knows. But in this case, you weren't 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:41.920 even there. 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.040 No, do you look like the other guys, but they said, 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:45.720 we all look a like. 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.520 Yeah, I know, I love myself Overen for that one. 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:49.679 That's a objective. 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.960 But it wasn't like your twin brother or god knows what, 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.120 so not by long shot. So they end up arresting 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.520 you and charging you with a solid stent to commit 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.960 murder of a police officer. Yes, bad bad. Yeah, you 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.280 go to jail, yes, awaiting trial. 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:08.319 Yes, I got out on bond. 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.080 I was in jail for about two months and posted 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.319 sixty thousand dollars bond and got out okay. And how 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.720 long did it take to get to trial? About six 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.560 seven months. I got out in December, the trials in June. 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.640 So you go to trial and who represented you? 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:24.920 Oh, I had an attorney. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.079 My attorney was a matth he's a former judge in 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:28.360 the county in which I had the trial. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.000 He used to be a city judge on the circuit 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.400 court bench. So that sounds like, you know, you were 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.480 giving yourself a good shot at least you would think, yeah. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:37.800 But the problem with that was, and I didn't discovered 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:40.520 till later, is that the judge we were in front of. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.280 My attorney and the judge hated each other when he 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:43.959 was on the bench. 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.880 And he didn't bother to tell you that, well. 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:47.960 Not initially. 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.160 When he tried to get the case moved to another court, 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.880 because he said, disjudge and I have animosity towards each other, 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:56.400 and I don't think he'd give me a fair trial. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.680 Oh my god, that's just what you need to hear exactly. 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.600 And then he's not going to make the relationship any 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.760 better by asking that the trial be moved to another right. Okay, 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.120 so now you've got a pretty good idea that things 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.280 are looking bad. 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.000 Exactly as a confluence of crazy events. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.240 You know, the prosecutor came up with his theory of 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.760 the case, and the officer himself changed his testimony to 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.040 fit that theory of the case. There were four of 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.160 us involved in this crime, myself and three co defenders, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.839 and two of the co defenders turned States evidence against 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.280 me and one other guy. They testified against us, and 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.319 their testimony fit the theory of the prosecutor's case as well, 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.760 even though none of the evidence fit. We had a 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.440 clear statement from the officer. We had his handwritten police 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.720 report from the day of the event saying I hadn't 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.079 done you know, it wasn't me. Eight months later when 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:44.640 the trial went down, all of a sudden, I'm the 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.240 one that jumped out of the car shooting at him. 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:47.320 It was crazy. 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.800 So they had everybody at the trial basically telling the 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.520 story that the prosecutor wanted to be told. The police 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.199 officer changed his story, right, The other two witnesses changed 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.240 their story or or came up with a story that was. 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:03.760 In line with the prosecutor wanted. 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:09.240 And so did you believe that when the jury went out, 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.000 did you believe that you were going to be convicted? 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.560 Or there is no way I thought I was going 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.120 to be convicted. It was a three week trial and 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.120 not a week and two the trial. They came and 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.600 offered me a plea bargain. I said, there's no way 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.280 I'm taking the plea bar. I got the officer of 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.600 statement saying I didn't shoot at him, so I'm not 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:26.640 taking a plea bargain. 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.000 That's so crazy, right, And Glenn, let me see, I 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.040 see Glenn roll in his eyes. So let's just reflect 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:33.960 on this particular aspect of it, because this is not 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:35.280 a story I've ever heard before. 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:38.800 So they came to you and offered you a plea bargain. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.160 What was the plea bargain of seven to ten? The 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:45.080 sins was seven to ten years sins? I forgot with 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.480 the charge some reduced charge, right, assault with great body harm, 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.600 intention of great body of harm or something like that. 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.640 And you were facing what life if you lost the trial? Yes, 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.520 so if you were guilty, that sounds like a pretty 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.959 good deal, right. And now here is we have Glenn Mark, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:05.439 who's the founder and leader of Just Leadership USA. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:06.679 Glenn himself was. 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:11.240 Incarcerated for six years for robbery and has become I 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:17.320 could say, probably the most important voice in the deincarceration movement. 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:18.480 Was that fair, Glenn? 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.040 If I wanted to toot my own horn, yeah, that's fair, right. 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:27.240 And he's been instrumental in the Clothes Rikers campaign, has 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:31.040 done so much incredible advocacy work that It sometimes makes 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.040 me feel like I'm standing still, and I know that 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.600 now you guys work together, right, Yes, Glenn, have you 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.000 ever heard a story like that where the witness, I mean, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:40.920 I don't know, we just heard it. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.120 But I'm having trouble processing. 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.480 I do a ton of public speaking, and I am 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.600 constantly retelling this story because I am so blown away 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.720 by it. The fact that the prosecutor even offered that, 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:57.200 you know, relatively low number suggested to me that they 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.440 even thought that they may not win that case, which 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.640 would be another reason for Ronald to just hold out. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:04.800 You know, if I'm facing life and they offer me 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.480 seven to ten in the middle of trial, that suggests 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:08.800 that they think they may not make it to the 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.040 finish line. So I would have done the same thing. 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.400 But having the key witness who got shot not just 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.200 change his story in the middle, but also the fact 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.240 that Ronald even wasn't on the scene when he finally 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:25.840 got shot, you know, it blows me away, except I 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.120 got to be honest. I mean, everything about our criminal 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.720 justice system is just unfair and there's no equity there, 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.720 and people of color get outcomes like this over and over, 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:39.040 maybe not as egregious. But Ronald's story has always riveted 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.280 me as one that stands out for a number of reasons. 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.360 And we're just touching on the story now. There's a 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.720 lot more to tell. But the reason I asked Ronald's 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.640 permission to tell the story over and over is because 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.240 I think it gets to the core of what's rotten 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:51.720 in our criminal justice system. 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.240 And I would go even a step further and say 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.040 that when the prosecutor offered you that deal, what Glenn 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.199 says is certainly, which is that they must have thought 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:02.839 that there was a pretty good chance that they weren't 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.120 going to win. But also they must have known that 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.679 you weren't that guy, because if you're a prosecutor, you're 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.439 not trying to let a guy who shot a cop 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:11.600 out after seven to ten years. I mean, when you 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.240 look at it in comparison, Glenn was convicted of robbery, right, 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.240 simple robbery, so he got six years. What we're led 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.560 to believe now is that they're willing to say, all right, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.200 this guy's a bad motherfucker, he shot a cop, but 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:24.440 we're gonna give him seven to ten. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.080 Yeah, we're just going to be nice people, right. 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.880 Yeah, most people who shoot cops and end up in prison, 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.160 never get out, to be honest. 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.400 Yeah, I mean we can debate that all day long, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.800 but that's a terrible crime. Right. We cannot have people 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.000 shooting at law enforcements. It's not happening, right, And I 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.440 can agree that people who are violent, and certainly people 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.760 who attack law enforcement officers in a way like that, 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.520 need to be in prison because they're dangerous. But this 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:53.640 story is really it's stinks. Honestly, it's stinks, and you. 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:55.720 Know it does. So the jury goes out. 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:57.760 It was a jury trial, right, yes, jury trial. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.800 In three weeks in the courtroom, you develop almost like 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.960 summer rap poor with them, right, You're in close quarters 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.480 for three weeks every day, all day, right, except weekends. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.000 And then they go out and come back in. And 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:11.880 did they even look at you? Did you get that 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:12.840 sense when they walked in. 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:15.600 When they walked in, I had the sense of, oh shit, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.720 I'm in trouble. Because one of the jurors was crying. 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.680 One of the women, Drews, a young woman was crying. So, oh, 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:22.520 that can't be good. 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.280 What was the makeup of the jury, Because Flint is 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.640 a very racially diverse city, right. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.560 The jury wasn't. Out of the twelve jurors, there were 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.000 two blacks on my jury. 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:40.800 And flint is what sixty uh huh Is that a glint? 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:42.400 Do you think that's a coincidence. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.680 No, I think that's a stute prosecutor who's managing the 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:47.600 jury pool. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:49.920 After I was convicted, you know, you get to speak 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.720 to the court, and I spoke to that exact point 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:54.280 that you know that I didn't have a jury in 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.720 my peers, it wasn't racially made up, and out of 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.280 the two black people that were on it were older 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.720 black people from prior to the Civil rights era, and 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.480 they were used to bond down to when the white 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.360 person says something. They were worse than the white people 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.680 on the jury cause they the people that I thought 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.080 were holding out with the woman that was crying, and 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:14.680 somebody else kind of looked to me like just kind 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.520 of shook their head, just like this is. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:16.960 The way it is. 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:17.880 It's the way it is. Yeah. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.160 Yeah, I mean, and we know too that after a 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.840 three week trial and they're stuck in that jury room, 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.040 people get angry. Everybody wants to go home, they don't 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.240 want to be there, and it could get abusive in there. 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.280 You know, and if they're that old, I mean, I'm 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.280 I'm not excusing what they did. I could understand it. 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.800 The last day before I was convicted, when they were deliberating, 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.920 they had deliberated for over twelve hours, and they told 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:42.080 the judge they wanted to go home. 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:43.920 He said, no, we're not leaving until you come back 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:44.520 with a verdict. 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:45.040 There you go. 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.120 I rest my case so they come back. Can you 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:52.200 paint a picture of what that was like? That one 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:53.800 probably worst moment of your life. 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.480 What did it feel like when the jury come in, 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.000 the judge said, will the defend the rise? When they 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:01.560 get ready to announce the vers I felt like I 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.920 had five hundred pounds on my shoulder. I could it 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.879 was so hard to stand up. It was like, you know, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.600 I don't know if you ever lifted weight so squatted 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.639 when you were in prison, we used to squat, and 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:11.320 I felt like I. 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.840 Had five hundred pounds. I could not get up. 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.760 And then as they announced the verdict, you know, and 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.600 each person was stating, you know, they agreed with the verdict. 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.199 It was like every time they said guilty, it was 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:24.600 like a death blow boom. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.280 It was literally a death blow literally because they're taking 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:41.960 your whole life away. Absolutely, And so you go to prison. 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:43.720 What prison were you sent to? 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.040 Jackson in Michigan? Because I was twenty seven years old 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:48.959 when I went to prison. I was an older person 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.560 apparently speaking, so they sent me to the adult prison, 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:53.919 not the younger prison. 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.840 So I went to Jackson Penitentiary in Jackson, Michigan. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.199 And is that as bad as I think it is? Oh? 0:17:59.280 --> 0:17:59.960 Yeah, it used to be. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.800 It was built the world's largest wall prison because it 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:04.160 was such a huge complex. 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.040 Over five thousand prisoners were there and it was. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.080 Spread out of all his acres and they had you know, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.680 maximum security sales and medium security sales. 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:14.720 There was a pretty wild place. 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.600