1
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,840
Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

2
00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,040
Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,040
Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

4
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

5
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,200
Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

6
00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:18,239
Speaker 2: I hadn't done anything wrong.

7
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,120
Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

8
00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,720
Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

9
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,600
Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

10
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,480
Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

11
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,199
Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

12
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,520
Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.

13
00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:41,320
Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

14
00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.

15
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,280
Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them

16
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,400
Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da

17
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,320
Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward.

18
00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,760
Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction.

19
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm. Today, I

20
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:21,360
Speaker 3: have two people who I admire greatly. Ronald Simpson Bay

21
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,039
Speaker 3: welcome to the show, Thank you, thanks for having me.

22
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,360
Speaker 3: And Glenn Martin is here. Glenn is a remarkable activist

23
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,120
Speaker 3: and has an incredible story to tell as well.

24
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,200
Speaker 4: So Ronald let's start with you.

25
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 3: You served almost twenty seven years in prison for a

26
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,080
Speaker 3: crime and didn't commit. And what you've done with that

27
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,200
Speaker 3: experience and how it's transformed you is something that I'm

28
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 3: honestly in awe of and so I'm looking forward to

29
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,280
Speaker 3: getting to that. And Glenn, you have a similar story,

30
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 3: although you were actually locked up for something you did

31
00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:00,320
Speaker 3: do and have turned it into an incredible into a movement. Really, Ronald,

32
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 3: let's go back to the beginning. You grew up in Michigan.

33
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 5: Yes, I did, Flint, Michigan.

34
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 4: How is your childhood? What was it like?

35
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,640
Speaker 3: Let's let's go back like it, you know, back in

36
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 3: the day before everything went so horribly wrong.

37
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 6: I think I was born in Flint, Michigan, to a

38
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 6: two parent family. My dad was a school teacher, my

39
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,960
Speaker 6: mom was a homemaker, and I thought we lived a

40
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 6: fairly normal lifestyle, kind of middle upper class. Because my dad,

41
00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 6: he was a school teacher. We got to travel all summer,

42
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 6: we had a motor home. We did a lot of

43
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 6: things that you know, you don't really see in the

44
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,280
Speaker 6: inner city community. So I was exposed to a lot

45
00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,480
Speaker 6: at a young age. You know, traveled a lot, and

46
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,240
Speaker 6: you know, my dad made sure we were educated and

47
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,240
Speaker 6: well learned, but I lived in an abusive home. I

48
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,320
Speaker 6: was the oldest of five children. My dad would beat me,

49
00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 6: beat my mom and stuff, and became an untenable situation.

50
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 6: As a child, you don't realize how dysfunctional it is.

51
00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 6: You just feel like it's normal. If you grow up

52
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 6: so long like that. You know, you get fifteen, sixteen

53
00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 6: years old of that, like, well, this must be normal,

54
00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 6: everybody must go through this.

55
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,040
Speaker 5: But later on that wasn't the case.

56
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you don't know any different, right as

57
00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,960
Speaker 3: you get older, and then you sort of look back

58
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,080
Speaker 3: and you have more experiences to compare it to, and

59
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,480
Speaker 3: then you realize just how wrong that really is. Right,

60
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,239
Speaker 3: and it's a horrible thing to hear. But even then,

61
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,840
Speaker 3: nothing prepared you for what was going to happen, right,

62
00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 3: because it wasn't like you were growing up in a

63
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 3: gang lifestyle or in a type of situation where you

64
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,360
Speaker 3: were running with a tough crowd and getting mixed up

65
00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,399
Speaker 3: in a bunch of problems.

66
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 4: How did it happen? How did you end up in

67
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:34,639
Speaker 4: the system in the first place.

68
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, it's kind of like I said, I

69
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 6: didn't expect this. No one expects us to happen. And

70
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,480
Speaker 6: I went to high school, I went to cod With

71
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 6: to Eastern Michigan. I ran track for Eastern Michigan University

72
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 6: in the seventies, and I was a tooling diemaker General

73
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 6: Motors before I went to prison. And in nineteen eighty

74
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,960
Speaker 6: the first really dramatic traumatic event in my life happened.

75
00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 6: My mom shot and killed my dad in the Marylton

76
00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,480
Speaker 6: home in front of my two younger brothers and sisters.

77
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:02,839
Speaker 5: I was like twenty or twenty one at the time.

78
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,640
Speaker 6: I was married to my first wife and I get

79
00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 6: a call at work one day. My ex wife called me,

80
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,440
Speaker 6: say you need to come home right now. And she

81
00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 6: was pregnant, so I'm thinking that, you know, something's wrong

82
00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 6: with the baby. So I drive home. Said you need

83
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 6: to go to your parents' home. I said, okay, what's

84
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,599
Speaker 6: going on? So I'd make the two or three miles

85
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,479
Speaker 6: drive over to mom and Dad's home and I get

86
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 6: there and it's like it's pandemonium. Police cars everywhere, Adbulante

87
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,160
Speaker 6: the cracker can't even get down the street because it's

88
00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,520
Speaker 6: such a big crowd. And when I finally do get

89
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,040
Speaker 6: to the house, my mom send in the back of

90
00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 6: the cruiser, police cruiser. You're like, what's going on here exactly?

91
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 6: I'm like, what's going on? And they pulled me to

92
00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,800
Speaker 6: the side. They said, well, your dad is in the home.

93
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,000
Speaker 6: Your mom and shot your dad, and they took her

94
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,560
Speaker 6: off and I stayed there until the corner came and

95
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,599
Speaker 6: pronounced him dad and removed the body. And that was

96
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 6: July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty and six years to the day,

97
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 6: July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six, I walked into prison.

98
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,719
Speaker 6: My life took almost a perfect spiral.

99
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,919
Speaker 3: Wow, that's a that's a very strange and sort of

100
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,680
Speaker 3: horrible synchronicity, you know. And your case is is troubling

101
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 3: for a lot of reasons, but not the least of

102
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,800
Speaker 3: which is that you were arrested and ultimately convicted for

103
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:17,799
Speaker 3: shooting an officer.

104
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,680
Speaker 4: Yes, but that officer changed.

105
00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 3: His story over time, right where originally he had said

106
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 3: that you weren't the guy exactly, So you got blindsided

107
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,240
Speaker 3: really when you went to trial, for sure? I mean,

108
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,960
Speaker 3: how could It's so bizarre, Ronald? I mean, you got

109
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 3: I mean, you lived it. But I'm just sitting here

110
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,840
Speaker 3: looking back out it and going wait a minute. I

111
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,040
Speaker 3: can understand a witness changing their story, but the victim,

112
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,320
Speaker 3: I mean going that guy didn't shoot me? Oh yes

113
00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,599
Speaker 3: he did. Yeah, you think you'd remember that. You think

114
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,040
Speaker 3: how did they get you in their in their crosshairs

115
00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:52,799
Speaker 3: in the first place.

116
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 6: Well, the case happened on a particular day in October

117
00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty five. My buddies and I were driving around Flinch,

118
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,919
Speaker 6: you know, being knuckleheads. We weren't boy scouts. We were

119
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,880
Speaker 6: driving around doing stupid stuff, and I stopped by a

120
00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,160
Speaker 6: place a friend of mine I had sold some drugs

121
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,680
Speaker 6: to to pick some money up, but he wasn't home

122
00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 6: at the time, and it was in an apartment building

123
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,160
Speaker 6: where a lot of drug activity is and it was

124
00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,200
Speaker 6: under surveillance by undercover cops. So they saw us leave

125
00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,360
Speaker 6: the place and thought we had robbed it. So they

126
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,520
Speaker 6: followed us, and about two blocks away from the scene,

127
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,200
Speaker 6: my buddy was driving my car, say, somebody's following us.

128
00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:28,960
Speaker 6: That said, what stopped is probably the guy that owes

129
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 6: me the money. I'm thinking that's who it was.

130
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 5: We stopped.

131
00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,520
Speaker 6: I get out of the car. I'm standing there waiting

132
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 6: for this car to pull up. But as he pulls up.

133
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,960
Speaker 6: No one recognizes the guy driving cart one o'clock in

134
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,360
Speaker 6: the afternoon, Z twenty eight Camaro. The guy jumps out

135
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,200
Speaker 6: with a blue jean suit on the hat. We all

136
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:44,920
Speaker 6: had Jerry.

137
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 5: Curls back then. That's how farther back it was. I

138
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,040
Speaker 5: still had hair. Yeah, I had had a Jerry curroll. Man,

139
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:52,680
Speaker 5: imagine that.

140
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,279
Speaker 6: But so the guy gets out. He just in the

141
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 6: car door, squads down and pulled the gun. So I'm

142
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,160
Speaker 6: asking the guy, y'all know who this guy is? No

143
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,560
Speaker 6: one know who he is, And all of a sudden fires,

144
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,599
Speaker 6: he's shooting. The guys in my car shooting at him.

145
00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,680
Speaker 6: I'm in the crossfire. I'm trying to run and get

146
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,840
Speaker 6: out of the way. So I get out of line

147
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,120
Speaker 6: of fires. The guys in my car take off and

148
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,840
Speaker 6: the undercovered car takes off behind them.

149
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 5: Wait, you got back in the car. No, the car

150
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 5: took off with out me.

151
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,440
Speaker 4: Okay, that's nice, friends, you got there, but go ahead.

152
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

153
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 4: So anyway, I no honor among thieves.

154
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 6: I guess I started walking because the car. I can

155
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 6: hear the cars going through the neighborhood, and I can

156
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,560
Speaker 6: hear the shooting because the guys panently, they're shooting.

157
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,920
Speaker 5: From my car back at the officers car, and I

158
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 5: go to the garage I worked on cars back.

159
00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 6: Then I go to the garage I worked at was

160
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,680
Speaker 6: about a mile away from the shooting scene, and I

161
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 6: get on the phone. I called the guy's girlfriend of

162
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,480
Speaker 6: driving my car. I say, if the guys come buy

163
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 6: the apartment, tell them come pick me up at the garage,

164
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:52,960
Speaker 6: not knowing that, you know, we weren to shoot out

165
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,840
Speaker 6: with police officers. About a half hour later, I called

166
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 6: her back. She said, they've been arrested by the officers.

167
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,240
Speaker 5: What officers? They were to shootout with police? I said,

168
00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 5: oh my god.

169
00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 3: So wait, So you still didn't realize at this point

170
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,360
Speaker 3: that the guys that had been shooting at you were cops.

171
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,640
Speaker 5: No, it never announce himself with cops.

172
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 4: Wow.

173
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,080
Speaker 6: And what had happened during the car chase scene after

174
00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 6: I had gotten out two miles down a road, the

175
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,880
Speaker 6: cars run off the road and there's a second shootout,

176
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 6: and that's where that's what actually got he got hit

177
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:22,480
Speaker 6: in the arm and the second shootout.

178
00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,920
Speaker 3: So you weren't anywhere near the place, No, it wasn't.

179
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,360
Speaker 3: I mean, this would have been more believable easier to

180
00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 3: understand if it would have happened during the first shootout,

181
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,160
Speaker 3: because at least you were there exactly, and they might

182
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,439
Speaker 3: arrested everybody. They might arrested you, and they might, you know,

183
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 3: the confusion. They might have thought you were the guy

184
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 3: doing the shooting.

185
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 4: Who the hell knows. But in this case, you weren't

186
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 4: even there.

187
00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 5: No, do you look like the other guys, but they said,

188
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 5: we all look a like.

189
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I love myself Overen for that one.

190
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:49,679
Speaker 5: That's a objective.

191
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 3: But it wasn't like your twin brother or god knows what,

192
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 3: so not by long shot. So they end up arresting

193
00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 3: you and charging you with a solid stent to commit

194
00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,960
Speaker 3: murder of a police officer. Yes, bad bad. Yeah, you

195
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 3: go to jail, yes, awaiting trial.

196
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,319
Speaker 5: Yes, I got out on bond.

197
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,080
Speaker 6: I was in jail for about two months and posted

198
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,319
Speaker 6: sixty thousand dollars bond and got out okay. And how

199
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,720
Speaker 6: long did it take to get to trial? About six

200
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,560
Speaker 6: seven months. I got out in December, the trials in June.

201
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,640
Speaker 4: So you go to trial and who represented you?

202
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 5: Oh, I had an attorney.

203
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,079
Speaker 6: My attorney was a matth he's a former judge in

204
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,360
Speaker 6: the county in which I had the trial.

205
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,000
Speaker 3: He used to be a city judge on the circuit

206
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,400
Speaker 3: court bench. So that sounds like, you know, you were

207
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 3: giving yourself a good shot at least you would think, yeah.

208
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,800
Speaker 6: But the problem with that was, and I didn't discovered

209
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,520
Speaker 6: till later, is that the judge we were in front of.

210
00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,280
Speaker 6: My attorney and the judge hated each other when he

211
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:43,959
Speaker 6: was on the bench.

212
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 4: And he didn't bother to tell you that, well.

213
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 5: Not initially.

214
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 6: When he tried to get the case moved to another court,

215
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 6: because he said, disjudge and I have animosity towards each other,

216
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:56,400
Speaker 6: and I don't think he'd give me a fair trial.

217
00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,680
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's just what you need to hear exactly.

218
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 3: And then he's not going to make the relationship any

219
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 3: better by asking that the trial be moved to another right. Okay,

220
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 3: so now you've got a pretty good idea that things

221
00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,280
Speaker 3: are looking bad.

222
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 5: Exactly as a confluence of crazy events.

223
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 6: You know, the prosecutor came up with his theory of

224
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,760
Speaker 6: the case, and the officer himself changed his testimony to

225
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 6: fit that theory of the case. There were four of

226
00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,160
Speaker 6: us involved in this crime, myself and three co defenders,

227
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,839
Speaker 6: and two of the co defenders turned States evidence against

228
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 6: me and one other guy. They testified against us, and

229
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,319
Speaker 6: their testimony fit the theory of the prosecutor's case as well,

230
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 6: even though none of the evidence fit. We had a

231
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,440
Speaker 6: clear statement from the officer. We had his handwritten police

232
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,720
Speaker 6: report from the day of the event saying I hadn't

233
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,079
Speaker 6: done you know, it wasn't me. Eight months later when

234
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,640
Speaker 6: the trial went down, all of a sudden, I'm the

235
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 6: one that jumped out of the car shooting at him.

236
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,320
Speaker 5: It was crazy.

237
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,800
Speaker 3: So they had everybody at the trial basically telling the

238
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,520
Speaker 3: story that the prosecutor wanted to be told. The police

239
00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,199
Speaker 3: officer changed his story, right, The other two witnesses changed

240
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,240
Speaker 3: their story or or came up with a story that was.

241
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 5: In line with the prosecutor wanted.

242
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:09,240
Speaker 3: And so did you believe that when the jury went out,

243
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 3: did you believe that you were going to be convicted?

244
00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,560
Speaker 6: Or there is no way I thought I was going

245
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 6: to be convicted. It was a three week trial and

246
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 6: not a week and two the trial. They came and

247
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,600
Speaker 6: offered me a plea bargain. I said, there's no way

248
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,280
Speaker 6: I'm taking the plea bar. I got the officer of

249
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,600
Speaker 6: statement saying I didn't shoot at him, so I'm not

250
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:26,640
Speaker 6: taking a plea bargain.

251
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 3: That's so crazy, right, And Glenn, let me see, I

252
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 3: see Glenn roll in his eyes. So let's just reflect

253
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:33,960
Speaker 3: on this particular aspect of it, because this is not

254
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,280
Speaker 3: a story I've ever heard before.

255
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 4: So they came to you and offered you a plea bargain.

256
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,160
Speaker 6: What was the plea bargain of seven to ten? The

257
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,080
Speaker 6: sins was seven to ten years sins? I forgot with

258
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 6: the charge some reduced charge, right, assault with great body harm,

259
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 6: intention of great body of harm or something like that.

260
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 3: And you were facing what life if you lost the trial? Yes,

261
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,520
Speaker 3: so if you were guilty, that sounds like a pretty

262
00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,959
Speaker 3: good deal, right. And now here is we have Glenn Mark,

263
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,439
Speaker 3: who's the founder and leader of Just Leadership USA.

264
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:06,679
Speaker 4: Glenn himself was.

265
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,240
Speaker 3: Incarcerated for six years for robbery and has become I

266
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:17,320
Speaker 3: could say, probably the most important voice in the deincarceration movement.

267
00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:18,480
Speaker 4: Was that fair, Glenn?

268
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 7: If I wanted to toot my own horn, yeah, that's fair, right.

269
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,240
Speaker 3: And he's been instrumental in the Clothes Rikers campaign, has

270
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 3: done so much incredible advocacy work that It sometimes makes

271
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,040
Speaker 3: me feel like I'm standing still, and I know that

272
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 3: now you guys work together, right, Yes, Glenn, have you

273
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,000
Speaker 3: ever heard a story like that where the witness, I mean,

274
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:40,920
Speaker 3: I don't know, we just heard it.

275
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,120
Speaker 4: But I'm having trouble processing.

276
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 7: I do a ton of public speaking, and I am

277
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,600
Speaker 7: constantly retelling this story because I am so blown away

278
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,720
Speaker 7: by it. The fact that the prosecutor even offered that,

279
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,200
Speaker 7: you know, relatively low number suggested to me that they

280
00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,440
Speaker 7: even thought that they may not win that case, which

281
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,640
Speaker 7: would be another reason for Ronald to just hold out.

282
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 7: You know, if I'm facing life and they offer me

283
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 7: seven to ten in the middle of trial, that suggests

284
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:08,800
Speaker 7: that they think they may not make it to the

285
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,040
Speaker 7: finish line. So I would have done the same thing.

286
00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 7: But having the key witness who got shot not just

287
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 7: change his story in the middle, but also the fact

288
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 7: that Ronald even wasn't on the scene when he finally

289
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,840
Speaker 7: got shot, you know, it blows me away, except I

290
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 7: got to be honest. I mean, everything about our criminal

291
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 7: justice system is just unfair and there's no equity there,

292
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,720
Speaker 7: and people of color get outcomes like this over and over,

293
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 7: maybe not as egregious. But Ronald's story has always riveted

294
00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 7: me as one that stands out for a number of reasons.

295
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 7: And we're just touching on the story now. There's a

296
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 7: lot more to tell. But the reason I asked Ronald's

297
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,640
Speaker 7: permission to tell the story over and over is because

298
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 7: I think it gets to the core of what's rotten

299
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,720
Speaker 7: in our criminal justice system.

300
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,240
Speaker 3: And I would go even a step further and say

301
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 3: that when the prosecutor offered you that deal, what Glenn

302
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,199
Speaker 3: says is certainly, which is that they must have thought

303
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,839
Speaker 3: that there was a pretty good chance that they weren't

304
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 3: going to win. But also they must have known that

305
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,679
Speaker 3: you weren't that guy, because if you're a prosecutor, you're

306
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,439
Speaker 3: not trying to let a guy who shot a cop

307
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 3: out after seven to ten years. I mean, when you

308
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,240
Speaker 3: look at it in comparison, Glenn was convicted of robbery, right,

309
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,240
Speaker 3: simple robbery, so he got six years. What we're led

310
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,560
Speaker 3: to believe now is that they're willing to say, all right,

311
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,200
Speaker 3: this guy's a bad motherfucker, he shot a cop, but

312
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 3: we're gonna give him seven to ten.

313
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're just going to be nice people, right.

314
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, most people who shoot cops and end up in prison,

315
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,160
Speaker 7: never get out, to be honest.

316
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we can debate that all day long,

317
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,800
Speaker 3: but that's a terrible crime. Right. We cannot have people

318
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 3: shooting at law enforcements. It's not happening, right, And I

319
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 3: can agree that people who are violent, and certainly people

320
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 3: who attack law enforcement officers in a way like that,

321
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,520
Speaker 3: need to be in prison because they're dangerous. But this

322
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:53,640
Speaker 3: story is really it's stinks. Honestly, it's stinks, and you.

323
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 4: Know it does. So the jury goes out.

324
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,760
Speaker 5: It was a jury trial, right, yes, jury trial.

325
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,800
Speaker 3: In three weeks in the courtroom, you develop almost like

326
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 3: summer rap poor with them, right, You're in close quarters

327
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,480
Speaker 3: for three weeks every day, all day, right, except weekends.

328
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,000
Speaker 3: And then they go out and come back in. And

329
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:11,880
Speaker 3: did they even look at you? Did you get that

330
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 3: sense when they walked in.

331
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,600
Speaker 6: When they walked in, I had the sense of, oh shit,

332
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 6: I'm in trouble. Because one of the jurors was crying.

333
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 6: One of the women, Drews, a young woman was crying. So, oh,

334
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:22,520
Speaker 6: that can't be good.

335
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 4: What was the makeup of the jury, Because Flint is

336
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,640
Speaker 4: a very racially diverse city, right.

337
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,560
Speaker 6: The jury wasn't. Out of the twelve jurors, there were

338
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,000
Speaker 6: two blacks on my jury.

339
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 4: And flint is what sixty uh huh Is that a glint?

340
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 4: Do you think that's a coincidence.

341
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,680
Speaker 7: No, I think that's a stute prosecutor who's managing the

342
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:47,600
Speaker 7: jury pool.

343
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 6: After I was convicted, you know, you get to speak

344
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 6: to the court, and I spoke to that exact point

345
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,280
Speaker 6: that you know that I didn't have a jury in

346
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,720
Speaker 6: my peers, it wasn't racially made up, and out of

347
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,280
Speaker 6: the two black people that were on it were older

348
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 6: black people from prior to the Civil rights era, and

349
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 6: they were used to bond down to when the white

350
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 6: person says something. They were worse than the white people

351
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 6: on the jury cause they the people that I thought

352
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 6: were holding out with the woman that was crying, and

353
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,680
Speaker 6: somebody else kind of looked to me like just kind

354
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 6: of shook their head, just like this is.

355
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:16,960
Speaker 4: The way it is.

356
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 5: It's the way it is. Yeah.

357
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and we know too that after a

358
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 3: three week trial and they're stuck in that jury room,

359
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 3: people get angry. Everybody wants to go home, they don't

360
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 3: want to be there, and it could get abusive in there.

361
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,280
Speaker 3: You know, and if they're that old, I mean, I'm

362
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 3: I'm not excusing what they did. I could understand it.

363
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 6: The last day before I was convicted, when they were deliberating,

364
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 6: they had deliberated for over twelve hours, and they told

365
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 6: the judge they wanted to go home.

366
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 5: He said, no, we're not leaving until you come back

367
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:44,520
Speaker 5: with a verdict.

368
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 4: There you go.

369
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,120
Speaker 3: I rest my case so they come back. Can you

370
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 3: paint a picture of what that was like? That one

371
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:53,800
Speaker 3: probably worst moment of your life.

372
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 6: What did it feel like when the jury come in,

373
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 6: the judge said, will the defend the rise? When they

374
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 6: get ready to announce the vers I felt like I

375
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,920
Speaker 6: had five hundred pounds on my shoulder. I could it

376
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,879
Speaker 6: was so hard to stand up. It was like, you know,

377
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 6: I don't know if you ever lifted weight so squatted

378
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,639
Speaker 6: when you were in prison, we used to squat, and

379
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:11,320
Speaker 6: I felt like I.

380
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 5: Had five hundred pounds. I could not get up.

381
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 6: And then as they announced the verdict, you know, and

382
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 6: each person was stating, you know, they agreed with the verdict.

383
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,199
Speaker 6: It was like every time they said guilty, it was

384
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 6: like a death blow boom.

385
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 3: It was literally a death blow literally because they're taking

386
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 3: your whole life away. Absolutely, And so you go to prison.

387
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:43,720
Speaker 3: What prison were you sent to?

388
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 6: Jackson in Michigan? Because I was twenty seven years old

389
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,959
Speaker 6: when I went to prison. I was an older person

390
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,560
Speaker 6: apparently speaking, so they sent me to the adult prison,

391
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:53,919
Speaker 6: not the younger prison.

392
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 5: So I went to Jackson Penitentiary in Jackson, Michigan.

393
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,199
Speaker 4: And is that as bad as I think it is? Oh?

394
00:17:59,280 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it used to be.

395
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 6: It was built the world's largest wall prison because it

396
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,160
Speaker 6: was such a huge complex.

397
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 5: Over five thousand prisoners were there and it was.

398
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 6: Spread out of all his acres and they had you know,

399
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 6: maximum security sales and medium security sales.

400
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 5: There was a pretty wild place.

401
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,600
Speaker 4: And when you say that, I mean you want to elaborate.

402
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 4: You know, you don't have to, but.

403
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,639
Speaker 5: Oh man, Jackson was Jackson was crazy. It was. It

404
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 5: was insane.

405
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 6: And to give you some idea, in nineteen eighty seven,

406
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,200
Speaker 6: there was so much tension between the officers and the

407
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 6: prisoners incarcerated people that they were.

408
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,440
Speaker 4: Killing each other like literally like bodybacks.

409
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,320
Speaker 6: In Marsha that year a female officer was killed in

410
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,960
Speaker 6: all because of that year, they retaliation, They choked and

411
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 6: killed acarcerated person over an asset unit, and in December

412
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 6: another officer was killed, stabbed at death.

413
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:49,719
Speaker 5: It was back and forth.

414
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 4: Wow, that sounds it sounds like hell.

415
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,919
Speaker 5: It was hell. It was suicide.

416
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,239
Speaker 6: You know, people couldn't cope because of the violence and

417
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 6: the conditions of confinement. You know, it was an old prison,

418
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,360
Speaker 6: you know, roaches, ratchet was one of your new modern

419
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 6: college campus type printed It had bars, you know, old school,

420
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 6: just like you'd see in the movies.

421
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,160
Speaker 3: I mean, and then something clicked inside of you, theority man.

422
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,240
Speaker 3: Unlike a lot of people that we talked to who

423
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,159
Speaker 3: were literally teenagers, adolescents even when they went to prison,

424
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,919
Speaker 3: nobody's prepared for this. But you, somehow or other, you

425
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 3: found another level of strength.

426
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,919
Speaker 4: That is out of this world.

427
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,359
Speaker 3: Not just to survive and keep your spirit up and

428
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 3: learn the law and actually end up figuring out a

429
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 3: way to get yourself out. You could so easily have

430
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,639
Speaker 3: been another one of those victims. You could have been

431
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 3: a suicide, You could have been killed. You could have

432
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 3: also just given up, right, I mean, I think I

433
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 3: think there's probably a bunch of people that you left

434
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,719
Speaker 3: behind who probably as innocent as you are, and just

435
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 3: gave up, just couldn't. Yeah, And so my question is

436
00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 3: where did that come from?

437
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 4: For me?

438
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,360
Speaker 5: I mean, you do prison in stages.

439
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 6: Anybody does time, especially a long time, you do it

440
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 6: in phases. And the first five years of my InCAR sprations,

441
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 6: I was angry and I was a twenty seven year old, aggressive,

442
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 6: angry young man in black man in prison. When I

443
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,400
Speaker 6: got to prison to discover that in Michigan, sixty six

444
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 6: percent of the prisoners didn't have GEDs. And I had

445
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 6: been to college and I was aggressive, So I'm a

446
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 6: run this place. So for the first five years I

447
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 6: was part of the problem, or not part of the solution.

448
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,840
Speaker 6: I was, you know, crea can all kind of havoc

449
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 6: on the yard, fight, stabbings, you name it.

450
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 5: We were involved in it. And one day in nineteen.

451
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 6: Ninety or ninety one, a good friend of mine brought

452
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 6: me a book called Visions for Black Men by doctor

453
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 6: named Akbar, ninety page paperback, small but easy read, Visions

454
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 6: for Black Men. Yes, I read that book and it

455
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 6: was like an epiphany. Light came on and I could

456
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 6: not believe when I looked at myself differently, I looked

457
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 6: at my community differently, I looked at my responsibility to

458
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 6: myself and my family and my community a lot differently,

459
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 6: and it kind of snapped me out of my anger.

460
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,479
Speaker 5: I gotta do something different. I'm gonna die in here.

461
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 5: I'm gonna kill somebody here and then die.

462
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 6: So that book made me be more reflective and introspective,

463
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,239
Speaker 6: and I kind of turned my attitude around, and I

464
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 6: started looking at things differently, stopped not being about me

465
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 6: so much by being about other people because I looked

466
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 6: up for a chain first five years I had looked

467
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 6: up and saw the degradation around me. I saw how

468
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 6: people had been dehumanized by the system, and people that

469
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 6: couldn't defend themselves because he either had mental issues or

470
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 6: just didn't have the faculty to do so. And I

471
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 6: had the faculty and the mental capacity to do it.

472
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,479
Speaker 6: So I turned my life around and started going the

473
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 6: direction of trying to help other people.

474
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 3: And then another tragedy occurred, as if you hadn't been

475
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 3: tested enough, right with the terrible, unimaginable circumstance of your

476
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 3: parents and then being wrongfully incarcerated, and then the only

477
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 3: other worst thing that can happen to a person happened

478
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 3: to you as well.

479
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 6: Man Indeed, indeed, it's two thousand and one. I had

480
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 6: been in prison about fifteen sixteen years at the time,

481
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 6: and Father's Day I was waiting for a visit. I

482
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 6: talked to my son and three daughters. I had a

483
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 6: son and three daughters at the time, and I talked

484
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 6: to my son that morning. His name is Ronald, and

485
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 6: I called him. He say, hey, Dad, I'm bringing the

486
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 6: girls up to see you and we will be up there.

487
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 5: And that was like great.

488
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 6: You know on Father's Day, see your children in prison

489
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 6: is like nothing is better.

490
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 5: So I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm waiting.

491
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 6: One o'clock, two o'clock, three o'clock. They don't show up.

492
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 6: Now I'm getting worried, so I get on the phone.

493
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 6: I start calling and it's strange. I know thousands of

494
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 6: people in Flint, Michigan. I could not catch anyone. I

495
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 6: called all my family members and taught no one. I

496
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 6: end up dilling my ex mother in laws phone them, Hey, mom,

497
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 6: this is.

498
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 5: What you doing.

499
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 6: Have you seen the kids they're supposed to come visit.

500
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 6: She said, you haven't heard. I said, no, what's going on?

501
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 6: Said little Ronnied been shot and killed. My twenty one

502
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 6: year old son had been shot and killed by fourteen

503
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 6: year juvenile in the streets of Flint, Michigan.

504
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 3: I mean, that's hard enough to probably get the chills

505
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 3: and to be in prison, and again, how could anybody

506
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 3: deal with that?

507
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 6: By that time, I had been for ten years. I

508
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 6: had been you know, I had changed my life around.

509
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 6: I had a whole new attitude about life. I had

510
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 6: become heads of various organizations, religious organizations, civic organizations. I

511
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 6: was I was a name plan off on a class

512
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 6: action lawsuit, so I was kind of a you know,

513
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 6: I was a high profile person inside. And by that

514
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 6: time when my son died, I had been all these years.

515
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 6: I had been giving other people counselor when they went,

516
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 6: you know, grief counseling, and when things they got bad

517
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 6: news from home that their wife left them, or that

518
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 6: somebody died or whatever, I would counsel people. So when

519
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 6: it came my turn, I had to apply my own

520
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 6: counseling to myself, because for me, the worst thing I

521
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 6: can be is a hypocrite. I never want to be

522
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 6: a hypocrite when anything that I do, so I had

523
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 6: to do as I said do in my own Here

524
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 6: I could hear my voice of all the counsel I

525
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 6: had given people over the years, and I just swallowed

526
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 6: and took an for myself. And as a result of that,

527
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 6: I forgave that child who killed my son. I advocated

528
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 6: for him to be treated as a juvenile, to go

529
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 6: through the juvenile system, and not be treated as an adult,

530
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 6: because I felt that him serving a life sentence in

531
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 6: a Michigan prison would serve no useful purpose. It wasn't

532
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 6: gonna bring my son back. It was only going to

533
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 6: deteriorate his family. Our community would rode even further. And

534
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 6: I felt that that young man was this victim of

535
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 6: the same environmental aspects as myself, my son, and many

536
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 6: other black men in the community.

537
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 3: That is so extraordinary, And it doesn't stop there. You

538
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 3: actually went to bat for a person who murdered your son,

539
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 3: your namesake. Yes, And it wasn't like you made a

540
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 3: phone call, write or wrote a letter. The fact is

541
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: that when you started to advocate for this young man

542
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 3: who had committed this terrible, terrible crime, pacted you so

543
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 3: so devastating to you. The prosecutor didn't want to hear

544
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: from you. I didn't realize that being an inmate makes

545
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 3: you not a father, right. I mean there's nothing in

546
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 3: the constitution or anywhere else that says that, right. I

547
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 3: mean that that should outweigh any other factor. Right, you

548
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 3: would think, of course, in our system, we treat people

549
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 3: so terribly, even when it comes to trying to visit

550
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 3: in other people who've lost close family members behind bars,

551
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 3: you know, if they get to go to the funeral,

552
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 3: they have to find a way to pay for the

553
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 3: guards to take.

554
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 4: Them and things like that.

555
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 5: I had to do that.

556
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: Oh you didn't, yes, So it's not even anomaly. So

557
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 3: you had to go to extreme measures to try to

558
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: get justice for this person who had wronged you.

559
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I had to contact the judge. I mean I'm

560
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 6: ade phone calls. I was in prison, so I wasn't

561
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 6: viewed as a traditional victim so to speak. So that's

562
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 6: probably why the prosecutor just kind of ignore my calls

563
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 6: and letters to them, trying to, you know, advocate half

564
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 6: of this child. Ting to write letters to the court. Yeah,

565
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 6: I mean a phone call. I had my ex wife,

566
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 6: my son's mother, go down and advocate on his behalf,

567
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 6: you know, because she could go there in person and

568
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 6: talk to him. It was just we just had to

569
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 6: keep at until one day they said we're gonna try

570
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 6: him as a juvenile.

571
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: It's interesting, right, Imagine if it had flipped, if you

572
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 3: had been writing letters to the prosecutor saying, I demand

573
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 3: that this kid get life in prison, they would have

574
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 3: been like, yeah, Ronald, come on, yeah, come testify.

575
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 4: That's right, we bring a right into the courtroom.

576
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 3: They would have put you understand, you know what I mean? Yeah,

577
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: for sure, I think that's a pretty safe bet. And

578
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: so what eventually happened to that young fourteen year old boy.

579
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 6: He served seven years in the juvenile attentions facility most

580
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 6: of us in Pennsylvania. He got released and he's living

581
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 6: in Cincinnati right now. And there's still some connection, right Yeah, Well, actually,

582
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 6: I mean the connection is the guy that killed my

583
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 6: son was my son's girlfriend's younger brother. And the story

584
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 6: is lead from she told me that.

585
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: I just want to repeat that again. So just for

586
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 3: my own sake and for the eyes, it was your

587
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: son's girlfriend's brother.

588
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 6: Right, that killed my son. Okay, And at the time

589
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 6: he died, his girlfriend was pregnant with my grandson, with

590
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 6: his son because he was born two muths later, So

591
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 6: my grandson is the nephew of the guy that killed

592
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 6: my son.

593
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 4: Holy fuck, Yeah, there you go.

594
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 3: I mean I knew that because I have read up

595
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: on you, but hearing you say it.

596
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 5: It's convoluted. But yeah, it's strange in fiction.

597
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

598
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 3: So, during your just about twenty seven years locked up

599
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 3: in maximum security prison, did you spend time in solitary confinement?

600
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 6: Yes, I spent several stints in solitary in Michigan administrative segregation.

601
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 5: But it's the same thing.

602
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 6: And the longest single stretch I stayed might have been

603
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 6: eight months or so, but I had like four months here,

604
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 6: three months there, two months, eight months over the years,

605
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 6: probably close to three years total.

606
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 4: Eight months. I'm just I mean eight months.

607
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 3: I think if you went to your average person out

608
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: there and said we need you to stay at the

609
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 3: holiday inn for eight months and you know, somewhere in

610
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 3: Florida or you know whatever, it's a stupid example, but

611
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: somebody be like, I can't do that. I mean, I'll

612
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: go crazy. Eight months. You make a baby in eight months?

613
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: And what was that like? Because it's a little different everywhere,

614
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 3: but it's always the certain things are the same.

615
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, solitary segregation is it's a prison within

616
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 6: a prison, and it's so terrible because the majority of

617
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 6: the people over there have mental health issues. Because when

618
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 6: you can't follow the rules in prison, this is where

619
00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 6: they put the people that can't follow the rules.

620
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 5: And a lot of people that.

621
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 6: Have mental health issues aren't able to follow the rules,

622
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 6: so they go over there and they don't get treatment.

623
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 5: So it's just it's havoc.

624
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 6: You can't sleep all night because they're screaming and hollering

625
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 6: and banging all night, banging on the doors, banging on

626
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 6: the bar, banging steel lockers, and then they sleep all day.

627
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 6: So the first had to get acclimated to that. I

628
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 6: had to get see healthcare because I have I was

629
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 6: having tension headache. I thought I was having a stroke

630
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 6: because it was so bad to smoke because they burned

631
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 6: toilet rolls to.

632
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 5: Heat water with.

633
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 6: And it's just, man, it's just if you ever saw

634
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 6: Mad Max be on Thunderdom years and I'm telling my

635
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 6: age now back in the eighties, and that whole that

636
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 6: sale scene in that movie kind of reminds me of

637
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 6: solitary confinement because it was so chaotic and so noisy.

638
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 4: And you're locked up in that cell twenty three hours.

639
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 5: And twenty three hours a day.

640
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 6: You get out for a one hour yard like three

641
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 6: days a week, and the other two or three days

642
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 6: you get time to get out the shower.

643
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 5: You don't get showers every day. You get showered like

644
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 5: three days a week.

645
00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 4: What did you do?

646
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: I mean, again, I keep coming back to it, but

647
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 3: how did you maintain your sanity and your spirit in

648
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: that prison?

649
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 5: Within a prison? I kept busy.

650
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 6: I had I had access to my property, and then

651
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 6: my property I had. I had my personal library of

652
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 6: eight hundred books, so they allowed me to get books

653
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 6: out of my property, and I was doing legal work.

654
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 5: So I stayed busy while I was in that.

655
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 6: I didn't let my mind get off into whatever's going

656
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,479
Speaker 6: on around me inside the segregation unit. I just stayed

657
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 6: busy and kept working until they said we're gonna let

658
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 6: you go.

659
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: And you were able to shut out the noise that

660
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: way and sort of at least find some sort of sanctuary.

661
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 5: And you have to if you don't it to drive

662
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 5: you crazy. I see why people go crazy in now.

663
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: I mean people who are crazy, driving other people crazy

664
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: and getting crazier while they're doing it. I mean, it

665
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 3: really does sound like hell I mean, it's hell inside

666
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: of hell. So it's like, I don't know what the

667
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: next thing is that's worse than hell, but that sounds

668
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: like it. I mean, it's cruel and in human punishment

669
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: by any stretch of the imagination.

670
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 4: And it is an.

671
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: Added tragedy that we have these people who need mental

672
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 3: health treatment who end up in our prisons and then,

673
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: as you said, can't obey the rules because they can't,

674
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: not because they don't even necessarily want to, but they can't,

675
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: and we end up punishing them even more severely and

676
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 3: then rendering them completely incapacitated and unable to ever return

677
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: to society without recidivating and going back to prison because

678
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: we've made them into what they are. And I keep

679
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: coming back to it, Glenn said it before.

680
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 5: They're human beings, absolutely.

681
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: I mean that's what gets me, Like, it's so strange

682
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: how in America we've gotten to a place.

683
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 4: Where a switch goes off where the.

684
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: Minute someone's arrested, they go from being a human being

685
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: to just being an inmate, and people feel that they

686
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 3: can treat them however they want. So let's talk about

687
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: how you got yourself out and how you ended up

688
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: working with this guy, Glenn Martin, and what you're doing now.

689
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you, thank man.

690
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 6: Well, I became a para league about obs inside and

691
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 6: I've fought my own case for all those years, and

692
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 6: twenty four years into my sentence, I got my conviction overturned.

693
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 6: The federal Court's granted habeasts relief on my case. But

694
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 6: the crazy thing about that, the state appealed the reversal

695
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 6: of my conviction and I sat in prison for three

696
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 6: more years without a conviction because the court wouldn't grant

697
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 6: me bond.

698
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 5: They just they wouldn't even rule on it.

699
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 6: They just left me sitting there for three more years,

700
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 6: and my case was reversed on prosecutor misconduct.

701
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 5: That's the issue in which I got released.

702
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 7: On prosecutorial misconduct, and they wait three more years for

703
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 7: the same prosecutor's office to figure out what they want

704
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 7: to do exactly.

705
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's the fox guarding the henhouse. It's

706
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 3: a reality in our system, and it's just it's so

707
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 3: it's one of the reasons why it's so broken.

708
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I ended up the court, the federal court, the

709
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 6: Federal Peller Court ordered them to either grant me a

710
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 6: new trial or release me. So I go back down

711
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 6: to the circuit court and the prosecutor they offer me

712
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 6: a plea bargain, said well, if you take this plea bargain,

713
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 6: you can go home today. I said, if I don't

714
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 6: get to go home today, I'm not taking it. So

715
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 6: I took the plea bargain. But there was some confusion

716
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 6: behind that because that's I agreed to it. And the

717
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 6: judge went on the record because the judge wanted me

718
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 6: to walk out the courtroom, but the Department of Corrections

719
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 6: the officers were saying, well, we got orders to bring

720
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 6: him back and they want to recalculate his time, and

721
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 6: the judge was like, what I said, he got time served.

722
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 6: So the judge adjourned, got off the bench. He went

723
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 6: back and called the Department of Corrections himself. He called

724
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 6: the central office in Lancy, Michigan, and he's like, I

725
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 6: want to let this guy go home now, and they

726
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 6: were telling him the same crack, Well, we got a procedure,

727
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 6: we have to reclculate that time, make sure they are

728
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 6: able to be released, and to just say, okay, I

729
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 6: got this. The judge came back out beat red. He

730
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 6: went back on the record and he changed the whole

731
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 6: plea barging. He said, not only am I sentenced to

732
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 6: time served, but I'm going to mend a sentence to

733
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 6: fifteen years.

734
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 5: I had already been out over my sentence by twelve me.

735
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 6: He gave me a ten to fifteen year sentence, which

736
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 6: made me pass my out date by twelve years to

737
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 6: make sure I went home right there.

738
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 4: Good for him. Yeah, it's nice to hear those stories.

739
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: We spent so much time talking about prosecutoring misconduct and

740
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: other misdeeds in the system that it's important to highlight

741
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 3: people like that judge who.

742
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, he had courage and he did what was right.

743
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: That courage and those people can make a huge difference,

744
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: and we need more of them, and more power to

745
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: you too as well. I mean the idea that you

746
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: figured out a way to represent yourself and overturn this

747
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 3: crazy conviction, which I'm sure they made it as difficult

748
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: as they could. They always do, but when there's a

749
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 3: case of a police officer being shot, they're going to

750
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 3: make it extra extra hard if they can. So you

751
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 3: figured it out and then you come out and the

752
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: world looks a lot different.

753
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 6: Huh, oh man, I was compared to our the feeling

754
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 6: I had. I felt like Fred Finstone stepping onto the

755
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 6: set of the j Justsons.

756
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 3: Of the Justons. Yeah, exactly right. I mean almost twenty seven.

757
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 5: Years that it felt like coming out.

758
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 3: I mean change, yeah, I mean even imagine if somebody

759
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 3: going in today comes out twenty seven years from now,

760
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: God knows what everything's gonna be, it really will.

761
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 4: Be the Jetsons by then.

762
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: Exactly how did you end up linking up with Glenn

763
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: and his organization?

764
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 4: And Glenn, can you.

765
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 3: Talk a little bit about what it is that you're

766
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: doing a Just Leadership. There's so much that it's hard

767
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,479
Speaker 3: for me to get it into a sound bite.

768
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 4: Sure.

769
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 7: At Just Leadership, we have the goal of cutting the

770
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 7: number of people under correctional supervision in America in half

771
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 7: by twenty thirty. So that means probation, parole, correction, prison, jails,

772
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 7: you name it. And the reason we have this ambitious

773
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 7: goal is because we have a criminal justice system that

774
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 7: is just off the charts. That's just a jugging out

775
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 7: of a system that's locking up so many people. And

776
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 7: we do that by investing in the leadership of people

777
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 7: like Ronald And it's counterintuitive, but the truth is that's

778
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 7: how you build movements, that's how you undo systems that

779
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 7: dehumanize people, is to invest in the very.

780
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 5: People who have been dehumanized.

781
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 7: And you listen to Ronald's case, and you realize that

782
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 7: we have a criminal justice system that just labels people

783
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 7: and put them on a conveyor belt and sends them

784
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 7: on their way, and you can never shake off the label,

785
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 7: except when you listen to Ronald's story, it's not just riveting.

786
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 7: You recognize his humanity in the middle of that story.

787
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 7: And so here you have Ronald who's a sophisticated advocate

788
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 7: by any stretch of imagination, but also he has this

789
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 7: story that is not just compelling, but it works as

790
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 7: a way to help other people rehumanize people who are

791
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 7: in the system. And I think that for us to

792
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 7: start treating people differently, we have to recognize that they're

793
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 7: people that their fathers and uncles and brothers and sisters.

794
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 7: And Ronald's story, as difficult as it is to listen to,

795
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 7: because the criminal justice system and all of its perverse

796
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 7: incentives led to all of those tragedies. In the end,

797
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 7: I think what's most compelling is the story of a

798
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 7: father who, while suffering in this system, found a way

799
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 7: to be compassionate for a child who he didn't want

800
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,959
Speaker 7: to see end up facing the same sort of human

801
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 7: carnage that comes out of our system now.

802
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 3: And in fact, this same sentence that you were facing.

803
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: That's just another irony of the whole situation. You had

804
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: to come out and navigate this new world, figure out

805
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 3: why everybody's walking around with some sort of a gadget

806
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: glued to their face, right, and everything else that goes

807
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 3: with the technology, everything, everything is completely upside down from

808
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: when you went in, for sure, because that let's facing

809
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 3: that's almost three decades. I'm sure some people that are

810
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 3: listening haven't even been alive that long, right, And so, well,

811
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 3: how'd you end up connecting with Glenn and just leadership

812
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 3: because you're you're in Michigan. I mean, it's not you know,

813
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 3: it's sort of I mean, it's not the easiest thing

814
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 3: in the world, is exactly.

815
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 7: I think I met him sitting in the trailer.

816
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 6: Well before that, we met me when you came to

817
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 6: my job at the trailer. What happened was in twenty fourteen,

818
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 6: I was a Pamiliss at University of Michigan at a

819
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 6: conference or convention there and Glenn was the keynot speaker

820
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 6: for the student group had some kind of meet and

821
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 6: going criminal justice reform conference going, so Glenn was the

822
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 6: keynot speaking.

823
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 5: I was a PAMILSS and afterward we met.

824
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 6: He came to I worked at American France Service Committee

825
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 6: and our office was in a garage in Anna Aburt, Michigan,

826
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 6: and Glenn came to the garage and I met him

827
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 6: there and we talked and he told me this vision

828
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 6: that he had for starting this organization. He was working

829
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 6: on it at that time, and he was telling me that,

830
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 6: you know, he wanted me to apply for it when

831
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 6: the application went live, and he explained to me that, you know,

832
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 6: his theory of those closest to the problem of being

833
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 6: closest to the solution. And I always get a kick

834
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 6: out when I think that, because I teased Messa, if

835
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 6: I getting any closest to the problem, it's going to

836
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 6: kill me after spending twenty seven years in prison, So

837
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 6: I was. He offered me this opportunity to join his organization.

838
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 6: So end of twenty fourteen, I did the application and

839
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 6: got accepted to the first cohort for twenty fifteen, and

840
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 6: I went through the Just Leadership year long Leading with

841
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 6: Conviction training and it was an amazing experience and a

842
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 6: life changing the experience with Glenn and the guys he

843
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 6: had training us. And at the end of that process

844
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 6: and the end of twenty fifteen, Glenn was in the

845
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 6: process of hiring his staff, his first staff people for

846
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,479
Speaker 6: Just Leadership, and he offered me a position, which I took.

847
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 4: And what is your job?

848
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 5: Now?

849
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 4: What do you do every day?

850
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 6: I'm the alumni associate for the organization. I'm the point

851
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 6: of engagement for our three hundred and sixty six leaders

852
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 6: in twenty nine states plus Washington, DC. We just added

853
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 6: thirty six more leaders, so we're gonna have four hundred

854
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 6: and two leaders in thirty one states.

855
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 4: What is a leader.

856
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 6: Formally encarcerated people that go through our training process. We

857
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 6: have a year long Leading with Conviction training that we

858
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 6: do here in New York City, and we have a

859
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 6: one day snapshot of that training called Emerging leaders Training

860
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 6: that we do. We do travel around the country doing

861
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 6: at various locations, and the people that go through the

862
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 6: programs become part of our network of leaders.

863
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 3: And what do those leaders do on a daily basis?

864
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 3: So what's their job. Oh, they have their own job.

865
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 3: Lot of them run nonprofit organizations. One of them work

866
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:49,439
Speaker 3: for the Department of Justice.

867
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 6: Some do policy in Alaska, some do reentry in Florida,

868
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 6: some do re entry in California, the some of the

869
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 6: drug counselors. They do a wide range of things dealing

870
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 6: with criminal justice reform.

871
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: I mean, now I see why you're smiling so much,

872
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: because you're now able to do something that is causing.

873
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 4: A ripple effect.

874
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 3: Absolutely, because everybody that you help is helping dozens of

875
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: other people and then training them to go on and

876
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 3: you know, and then all of this leads to twenty

877
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 3: thirty when me and Glenn are probably could have finally

878
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: take a vac case.

879
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right, I'm with you, that's probably. That's

880
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 4: probably as soon as we can hope for. But you know,

881
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 4: it's okay.

882
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 6: It's funny because Glenn like carved out the perfect spot

883
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 6: for me, I mean, for my talents, for this job.

884
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm like the point of engagement for this

885
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 6: for all our cohort, and I leaded. I have such

886
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,959
Speaker 6: a relationship with him. Lot them call me Uncle Ronald.

887
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 6: They come to the core. Hey, Cole Ronald, It's like

888
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 6: we have a lot of fun.

889
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 7: The most personable men I've ever met in my life

890
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 7: did twenty seven years in prison. Seriously, Ronald's attitude is.

891
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 7: I mean, you find people that have vast amounts of

892
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 7: other sorts of wealth and don't have the spirit that

893
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 7: Ronald has.

894
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 4: No, no, and he's charming, you know what I mean.

895
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 4: I can say that I may start. I don't know

896
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 4: if I.

897
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: Can call you, but this is really what a story,

898
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: what a full circle, and what an incredible spirit you have.

899
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm just uh, and you know it's amazing

900
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 3: because I feel so I don't know. The only word

901
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: I can think of is blessed to be able to

902
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 3: be in a position to be around people like yourself,

903
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 3: and to be able to do my part in helping

904
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: to change the conversation around this issue and to help

905
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 3: individuals both in getting themselves out of prison when they

906
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: don't belong there and returning to life, reintegrating it to

907
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: society and excelling as you've done. It's an amazing process

908
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: and it's you know, like I said, it just every time.

909
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 4: It never ceases to amaze me.

910
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 3: And you are as good of an example, and as

911
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 3: good of an ambassador or as anybody could ever hope

912
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 3: to have. So, Ronald, this has been an experience I'm

913
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 3: not going to forget, and I'm looking forward to having

914
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 3: more great experiences with you and working together in this fight.

915
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 5: Looking forward to it.

916
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: But we have a tradition here on wrongful Conviction. I

917
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 3: like to turn the microphone over to our futured guest,

918
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 3: well you and Glenn, and give you each an opportunity

919
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: to just say whatever it is it's on your mind,

920
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: anything that we haven't covered, or anything you want to

921
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 3: say about anything.

922
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 6: I think in a nutshell for me, I mean, you

923
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 6: kind of hit on it about the humanity. I think

924
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 6: my whole mission in life at this point is to

925
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 6: put the humanity back into being human. We've gotten away

926
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 6: from that. And can you see how crass our society is,

927
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 6: you know, all these shooting, how crazy it is because

928
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 6: everyone's mad at each other and.

929
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 5: For what usually superficial reasons.

930
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 6: If we took time to look at each other as humans,

931
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 6: to treat each other as humans, just to follow the

932
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 6: simple golden rule treat the other people how you want

933
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 6: to be treated, you know, learn develop a measure of empathy,

934
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 6: not sympathy, but empathy putting yourself in the other person's shoes,

935
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 6: And for me, that would go a long way and

936
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 6: resolving a lot of issues that we had because in

937
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 6: order for us to make some type of sustainable reform,

938
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 6: especially for criminal justice reform, we need hardened mind change,

939
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 6: and that comes through putting the humanity back into being human.

940
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 7: You know, Jason, I went from exiting prison owing one

941
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 7: hundred thousand dollars in fines, fees, restitution, find myself in

942
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 7: midtown Manhattan, trying to figure out what's next, unable to

943
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 7: find a job, to meeting one on one with the

944
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 7: President of the United States thirteen years later. And the

945
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 7: more I emerged as the exception is, the more I

946
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 7: realized that it was reinforcing the existing narrative about everyone else.

947
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 7: And so the question was, how can I one help

948
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 7: people understand that I'm not the exception, that I was

949
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 7: exposed to exceptional opportunities, and to expose other formerly acclustrated

950
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 7: leaders Ronald to the sort of opportunities that I've been

951
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 7: exposed to. And you know, we tend to think that

952
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 7: there's some voiceless people out there. I don't think they

953
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 7: are voiceless people. I think there are people who've been

954
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 7: deliberately silenced, and it just leadership USA. We create a

955
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 7: space for people who've been silenced to not just have voice,

956
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 7: but to end up in much closer proximity with the

957
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 7: people I think need to hear these messages. And Ronald

958
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 7: is just one of our hundreds of ambassadors at this point,

959
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 7: but I appreciate the opportunity to be on here and

960
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 7: create space for Ronald to tell his story. I just

961
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 7: think it's hugely important for people who try to find

962
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 7: compassion day to day in the world that we live

963
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 7: in to recognize that there are people who have been

964
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 7: through a tremendous amount of tragedy and still exercise humanity.

965
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 7: And I think it challenges the rest of us to

966
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 7: step up and be bolder and to lead with our values.

967
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

968
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 3: get your podcasts.

969
00:44:58,239 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 4: It really helps.

970
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 3: I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I

971
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 3: really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important

972
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 3: cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to

973
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 3: Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate.

974
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 4: And get involved.

975
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 3: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall and

976
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 3: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

977
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 3: time OSCAR nominatede composer Jay Ralph.

978
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 4: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

979
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 4: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

980
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

981
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 3: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one