Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure the person with me is always is
Speaker 1: Charles W. Tuck Bryant cap grasp Eva. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's cup Crows because it's a Frenchman who was the
Speaker 1: first person to describe. Jerry just called it crap crass.
Speaker 1: We're all kinds of screwed up, and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say cop crawl the whole time, so we'll just
Speaker 1: say cap gradsbnxious. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like we're
Speaker 1: not in Quebec, that's right, umque right. This is basically
Speaker 1: our our Invasion of the Body Snatchers episode podcast that
Speaker 1: unless we do one on the Invasion of the Body Snatchers,
Speaker 1: that's kind of the deal. Though. We're talking today about
Speaker 1: a very very strange and once thought to be uncommon
Speaker 1: and rare disorder um a delusional disorder, a delusional misidentification disorder,
Speaker 1: to be specific, where the sufferer believes that the people
Speaker 1: in his or her life, people very close to him,
Speaker 1: have all been replaced by impostors, that they're there, like
Speaker 1: I'm looking at you right now, Chuck, and you look
Speaker 1: just like Chuck, and you're doing a great job with
Speaker 1: the voice and everything, but like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: say it, and I don't want to look you in
Speaker 1: the eye, but like, you're obviously not chucking. What's going on?
Speaker 1: I think we all feel that about each other occasionally,
Speaker 1: but imagine like that all the time, Like, how would
Speaker 1: you just not lose faith in the reality of anything
Speaker 1: if you thought, first of all, how are people? How
Speaker 1: are they coming up with great impostors like this? Who
Speaker 1: is they? Why are they doing this? Why you? Is
Speaker 1: it just you? Or it's the whole world? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's like there's a lot of really weighty questions involved
Speaker 1: with this, and as a result, science has been trying
Speaker 1: to really figure out the mystery behind it and has
Speaker 1: failed thus far. Yeah, and you know we we already
Speaker 1: should say. It's not only difficult on the person, but
Speaker 1: it's difficult on the person being misidentified as well. And
Speaker 1: you don't really don't hear a lot about that. I
Speaker 1: read a bunch of articles on this and only one said,
Speaker 1: and don't forget if someone if your wife thinks that
Speaker 1: you're an impostor, it's really tough on you as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that just kind of overlooked, Yeah, very much. So. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is actually kind of a newish phenomenon as
Speaker 1: far as description goes. UM Dr Copgraw and Dr Rebu
Speaker 1: last show UM described Madame m who believed that she
Speaker 1: had as many as eighty husbands, all of them the same,
Speaker 1: looking the same, but they were all impostors and she
Speaker 1: never could get close to him because Um, eventually they
Speaker 1: would just kind of leave and be replaced by a
Speaker 1: new one. And she was really convinced of this. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure at the time they thought, what this lady
Speaker 1: is just nuts? But then the more people did research,
Speaker 1: the more they found and I couldn't find any good
Speaker 1: stats on how rare it is undered thousands and that
Speaker 1: means nothing. So the one I saw it was in
Speaker 1: two thousand or six five. I believe the estimate was
Speaker 1: between one point three to four point one percent of
Speaker 1: all psychiatric patients have cap Craw And you can probably
Speaker 1: say that if that's close, then that's probably close to
Speaker 1: the general population. Because if you believe that the people
Speaker 1: who are closest to you in your life are impostors
Speaker 1: and you're accusing them as such, they're probably gonna force
Speaker 1: you to go seek psychiatric help. So that would probably
Speaker 1: be a pretty close statistic for the society. For society
Speaker 1: at large, and where you really see it though, is
Speaker 1: in Alzheimer's patients. The statistic was between two and thirty
Speaker 1: percent of Alzheimer's patients possibly suffer from cop craw or
Speaker 1: crab grass. But isn't that just all timers. No, not
Speaker 1: necessarily Alzheimers. You know, let's it can be forgetfulness. Um,
Speaker 1: that can be uh, yeah, I guess this orientation. This
Speaker 1: is the you're accusing your husband, your wife, your son,
Speaker 1: your daughter of being somebody else, somebody posing it is them. Okay,
Speaker 1: that makes sense. So this is different than something we've
Speaker 1: covered face blindness before, right, we talked about it came
Speaker 1: up in something else, but yeah, maybe we did do
Speaker 1: a whole podcast on it. I'm not sure. But that
Speaker 1: is uh, proso pregnosia, and this is not proso pregnocia.
Speaker 1: That's when you you can see your face over and
Speaker 1: over and over and still you just don't know who
Speaker 1: it is. Right in this case, you know, like, hey,
Speaker 1: that's Josh, I'm looking at him. I know that face,
Speaker 1: but um, they they've done studies with skin conduct conductance
Speaker 1: is when they're basically measuring the amount of perspiration on
Speaker 1: your face, which is a it's a measure of the
Speaker 1: limbics system being active, which is in turn a measure
Speaker 1: of your emotions going off. Yeah, with the you being
Speaker 1: that if if you're sweating a little bit on the face,
Speaker 1: then that is a physiological or psychological queue that like, hey,
Speaker 1: look at this picture of your mother. I would recognize
Speaker 1: that as my mother, and maybe my face will sweat
Speaker 1: a little bit. Right. If you are what's called a
Speaker 1: normal if you have propagnosia um you will not recognize
Speaker 1: that picture intellectually consciously, but your skin conductivity will go off.
Speaker 1: So that means that the emotional cue is still triggered
Speaker 1: even though you don't know who you're looking at. That's
Speaker 1: the opposite of studies of um cap cross syndrome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they'll see a picture and they will not have It's
Speaker 1: basically like they're looking at a picture of a complete stranger, right,
Speaker 1: and and they don't have they they don't have that
Speaker 1: emognized face right exactly, but they don't have an emotional response.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. They recognize the face enough to know
Speaker 1: this is my dad. They are rational enough. That's the
Speaker 1: other thing too. Other than this the rational, it's what's
Speaker 1: called a mono thematic syndrome where you have one delusion
Speaker 1: and it's a whopper and it basically consumes your whole life.
Speaker 1: So the irrational otherwise and the rational enough to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is my dad I'm looking at but I don't
Speaker 1: feel any kind of emotional stimulation from seeing my dad
Speaker 1: and I should and because I don't, this is an imposter.
Speaker 1: That's what they thing is going on. Yeah. One of
Speaker 1: the common things that the people with the syndrome will
Speaker 1: say is that like their soul is gone or their
Speaker 1: soul is missing. That's a different syndrome. No, no no, No,
Speaker 1: that that's that's linked to cap GRAB because they'll recognize
Speaker 1: the other person. Yea, the person they're looking at is
Speaker 1: that's not my mother, that's not there. There would sense
Speaker 1: my mother's soul, right. So what they think then is
Speaker 1: that when we this kind of proves that we make
Speaker 1: memories two ways that are connected. That we we take
Speaker 1: in stimuli, right, like visual stimula. I'm looking at you
Speaker 1: and at the same time I'm looking at Chuck, and
Speaker 1: I like Chuck. So I'm also kind of taking note
Speaker 1: that same memory that I'm forming of the visual representation
Speaker 1: of you also has an attendant um emotion happiness. I
Speaker 1: like you, so when I see you again, I should
Speaker 1: feel that same thing happiness. I'm glad to see Chuck.
Speaker 1: That is a full memory with cop craw people who
Speaker 1: suffer that they're missing the emotional aspect and they have
Speaker 1: the recognition and the vs rama Shan drawn I think
Speaker 1: I said his name right. He came up in the
Speaker 1: Mirror Neurons episode. It's just a brilliant genius dude as
Speaker 1: text maybe I think so, um he he said. Probably.
Speaker 1: What's happening then is you have a secondary lesion, secondary
Speaker 1: damage where your your right brain is very analytical and
Speaker 1: it checks your left brain, which wants to explain everything away.
Speaker 1: And if that right brain analysis is damaged, then the
Speaker 1: left brain can do go to whatever links that wants
Speaker 1: to to explain a way strange phenomenon. In this case,
Speaker 1: if you have that disconnect between the um sensory input
Speaker 1: and emotional aspect of a memory in conjunction with a
Speaker 1: loss of the right brain checking your delusions, then the
Speaker 1: left brain is able to go off and say, oh,
Speaker 1: well it must be an impostor. Yeah, well the emotional
Speaker 1: side wins out essentially as an explanation to sort of
Speaker 1: reconcile those two things. Yeah, because it's missing. It's not deluded.
Speaker 1: The person is not delusional. It's there's an impostor. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know what's really weird is um. Another one of
Speaker 1: the characteristics sometimes is it can extend to animals and
Speaker 1: objects as well, So it's not always just people. They
Speaker 1: can you know, that's my dog, but it's not. I
Speaker 1: know that chair is not the original chair. Someone came
Speaker 1: in here and replaced it an exact replica. Um. And
Speaker 1: they're not hallucinating, you know, these they're a air of
Speaker 1: all this stuff. Yeah, and I mean imagine the paranoia
Speaker 1: that that would generate in you, like, who moved the chair?
Speaker 1: Who replaced this chair? What's the deal? And um, they
Speaker 1: found that it's it is co morbid with things like
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's and schizophrenia as well and other psychotic disorders. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's it's usually your spouse to um. One article,
Speaker 1: are it said it's always your spouse is how it starts?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, but I don't know if that's quite right.
Speaker 1: That seems a little willing nilly to say every single
Speaker 1: time it starts with your spouse. So let's talk about
Speaker 1: some of the explanations that science has come up with,
Speaker 1: um since it was first described in it was right
Speaker 1: in Freud's wheelhouse. Oh yes, So the psycho analysts had
Speaker 1: their had the first crack at it and they swung
Speaker 1: and missed. Um. They basically said that it was a
Speaker 1: repressed edipits or electric complex, right yeah, and that that
Speaker 1: was kind of pooped pretty quickly. Um. They were saying that,
Speaker 1: you know that you're just trying to resolve guilt about
Speaker 1: your circumstances, um, identifying your parents. It look alike, and
Speaker 1: then pretty quickly scientists and you know that it probably
Speaker 1: doesn't have to do with repressed feelings in this case,
Speaker 1: done done everybody. Kenneth took his ball and went home.
Speaker 1: Yeah he Yeah, he's really been kicked to the has
Speaker 1: he Yeah, even by psychology. They've turned their backs on him.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, uh psychodynamic approach. Sorry, Um, that was the
Speaker 1: psychodynamic approach, and that that's like we said, it's kind
Speaker 1: of been pooh pooed. Well, that was the psychodynamic approach,
Speaker 1: was the one where it's repressed feelings. Freudian approach was
Speaker 1: that you wanted to have sex with your mom, so
Speaker 1: you so you resolved that the guilt from that by saying,
Speaker 1: my mom, you're not my mom, you're an imposter. So
Speaker 1: but I want to have sex with you, and that's okay.
Speaker 1: I mean the Glenn Miller version of the mood I
Speaker 1: feel really guilty. Um. Again, again we should say that
Speaker 1: one was thrown out. A lot of researchers think that
Speaker 1: it's a result of an actual organic cause, something physically
Speaker 1: wrong with the brain, which makes sense to me. UM.
Speaker 1: They look for lesions, UM, cerebral dysfunction, signs of atrophy,
Speaker 1: and like you mentioned, it is also co morbid a
Speaker 1: lot of time with psychotic disorders UM, epilepsy, even Alzheimer's,
Speaker 1: and you mentioned schizophrenia, which makes sense. I think bipolar
Speaker 1: is on there as well. Yeah, so other doctors say,
Speaker 1: you know what, it might be a combination of these things,
Speaker 1: like physical and cognitive causes, Like you have some sort
Speaker 1: of organic damage, but then you're you're mentally you're rationalizing
Speaker 1: it inappropriately, like you can't accept that you're delusional because
Speaker 1: of any sort of brain damage. You're projecting it's everyone
Speaker 1: else is an impostor. But that would be a combination
Speaker 1: of mental and physical. And again it's your brain trying
Speaker 1: to explain something that doesn't quite add up in your head. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So what's clear is there's a breakdown and communication. There
Speaker 1: is UM somewhere in the brain. It's they Rama Shandron,
Speaker 1: Um and his partner. I don't want to just call
Speaker 1: out the star, but Hrstein and Rama Shandron did a
Speaker 1: paper in nineties seven that was pretty interesting. They consider
Speaker 1: it a problem of memory management, wherein, like you or I,
Speaker 1: if if our brain is to be um, if it's
Speaker 1: a computer, look it as a computer, right, UM, when
Speaker 1: we see somebody or meet somebody, we create a file
Speaker 1: on that person, and then when we encounter that person again,
Speaker 1: we access the same file and then add to it.
Speaker 1: But it's the same file. What Rama Shandron and her
Speaker 1: Stein we're proposing was that, uh, people who have cop
Speaker 1: craw make a new file every time for the same person.
Speaker 1: But there's also there has to be some sort of
Speaker 1: link between these files. I don't think that's necessarily an
Speaker 1: app description. I think there are more onto it with
Speaker 1: it's just missing. It's the same file it's just missing
Speaker 1: something that the patient senses is missing, the void there
Speaker 1: and they're saying, well, I'm missing something because you're an
Speaker 1: imposter and I don't really know you, like some sort
Speaker 1: of emotional identification marker. UM. This is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1: They have studies that showed that UM blind people. It
Speaker 1: can actually extend to their voice of the person. But
Speaker 1: other times they've shown that they recognized them on the
Speaker 1: phone but not in person. Yeah, that was a dude
Speaker 1: named DS. That Rama Shan Dron. It can be both.
Speaker 1: He could his was UM. The only modality is what
Speaker 1: they call it. For his UM. His delusion was visual.
Speaker 1: So like when he saw his parents, his dad was
Speaker 1: not his dad, and actually his dad was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: His dad one day UM the DS was a thirty
Speaker 1: year old Brazilian guy who got into a car accident
Speaker 1: and started suffering cap gross syndrome and UM. His parents
Speaker 1: started to get really worried didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1: So his dad one day came in and declared that
Speaker 1: the man who had been replacing him as an impostor,
Speaker 1: he had sent him away to China and he would
Speaker 1: never return. And I'm your father and I'm back and
Speaker 1: it worked for a couple of weeks, and then it
Speaker 1: just went back the The guy became convinced that no,
Speaker 1: the impostors back. He had cap Cross syndrome so bad
Speaker 1: that he came to believe that he himself was an impostor,
Speaker 1: and he asked his mother, when the real DS returns,
Speaker 1: what you still love me and treat me as your friend?
Speaker 1: Can I still stay around? And she said, I don't
Speaker 1: know who you are. So this guy thought, um, everything
Speaker 1: including himself, was an impostor. I thought there were two
Speaker 1: Panamas that he'd been to recently, thought there were two
Speaker 1: United States, there were doubles for everything, and um. When
Speaker 1: he talked to his parents on the phone, though that
Speaker 1: he didn't suffer that delusion. It was strict dad, where like,
Speaker 1: there's this other guy here pretending to be you. Oh,
Speaker 1: I I don't know. He would like he didn't hide
Speaker 1: it from what I understand. Interesting, which is something that's
Speaker 1: probably healthy if you have cap Grafs syndrome, because there
Speaker 1: is UM. There have been instances of violence with cap
Speaker 1: Cress syndrome. Yeah. This one guy thought a robot had
Speaker 1: replaced his father, so he decapitated his father to look
Speaker 1: for the robot. Inside. UM. A woman in a mental
Speaker 1: institution killed another patient because she thought that she was
Speaker 1: going to kill her double, her daughter's double. So she
Speaker 1: was actually protecting the impostor from somebody who she didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily think was an impostor. It's very interesting. So as
Speaker 1: far as treating this, there's you know, since it's pretty rare,
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of you know, prescribed regular treatments. UM.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it goes away, it doesn't. Yeah. Sometimes if it's
Speaker 1: like a physical brain trauma, uh, you can re establish
Speaker 1: that connection and and things start firing correctly again, and
Speaker 1: it just kind of disappears. I wonder when you come
Speaker 1: out of it, Chuck, like, do you feel like, wow,
Speaker 1: that was really crazy what I used to think? Or
Speaker 1: do you feel like all the impostors have left in
Speaker 1: all of my families back now? Oh? I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's weird. Another thing that they say, if it's linked
Speaker 1: to a mental disorder, sometimes it can be helped by
Speaker 1: medication that would also help that mental disorder. UM, but
Speaker 1: they're really for most people there is no treatment, uh,
Speaker 1: and there is no cure. I think it's just probably
Speaker 1: a long series of of sessions on the couch. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, But I mean, how do you
Speaker 1: forge trust that's it, you know, in somebody when you
Speaker 1: which is required to say, Okay, it's me, everyone's not impostors.
Speaker 1: I have a false belief when ultimately, if the closer
Speaker 1: you get to, say, like your therapist, the more likely
Speaker 1: you are to come to believe that they are going
Speaker 1: to be replaced by an impostor. This is a sad condition.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about some mother Stag conditions too that
Speaker 1: are similar. I mean, it's a it's a delusional misidentification syndrome.
Speaker 1: It also falls under the umbrella of reduplicative para amnesia
Speaker 1: in a while, Uh yeah, it's a mouthful. So another
Speaker 1: similar one is the Fregoli system and it was named
Speaker 1: after Leopoldo Fregoli. He was a quick change artist and
Speaker 1: that leads you to believe that people around you are
Speaker 1: people in disguise, so not replacements. But hey, I know
Speaker 1: that you should be my dentist, but you're really my
Speaker 1: sister in disguise as my dentist. Yeah. It's like over recognition,
Speaker 1: like everyone in your life that you see and interact
Speaker 1: with on a daily basis, like your your dentist or
Speaker 1: somebody on the subway or whatever is actually somebody very
Speaker 1: close to you dressed up in disguise. Coutard syndrome. That
Speaker 1: is a belief that you are missing body parts or
Speaker 1: you are emotionally dead. And sometimes they think like my
Speaker 1: heart doesn't beat, or I don't have bones, or I
Speaker 1: don't exist any longer. And it's not I mean, these
Speaker 1: are people that really feel this way. It's pretty much
Speaker 1: like the psychological manifestation of an existential crisis. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: do you think your brain is rotting inside of you
Speaker 1: and like you're dead? I mean, you don't feel anything.
Speaker 1: What about inter metamorphosis? This one's odd. It's kind of like, um,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like cop graft syndrome, but it's it's
Speaker 1: more complete like the and it's not imposters. It's people
Speaker 1: close to you switching. Just your brothers now your father
Speaker 1: psychologically and physically, the whole ball of ax. Like apparently
Speaker 1: you see them, like when you're interacting with your father,
Speaker 1: you see and think you're interacting with your brother if
Speaker 1: they've switched. Yes, Wow. Indeed. The thing about this though,
Speaker 1: and you kind of get this from the Ramashan Drum
Speaker 1: paper which I strongly recommend reading. It's it's only like
Speaker 1: nine pages. It's pretty interesting stuff is Every once in
Speaker 1: a while he comes he pulls back and he's like,
Speaker 1: can you f and believe the brain? Yeah? It is
Speaker 1: incredible what what it can do? And when it malfunctions? Man,
Speaker 1: can it ever a malfunction? But he's pointing out that, like,
Speaker 1: through these really really rare cases, um, you can start
Speaker 1: to get a glimpse in how we form memories and
Speaker 1: how we retrieve memories, and to better understand human consciousness
Speaker 1: through you know, these these very unique, unusual patients. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'd like to think at the end of our run,
Speaker 1: you know, in fifty years, we're gonna have a nice
Speaker 1: body of work on the brain for people to pick
Speaker 1: and choose and you know, from like alien hand to
Speaker 1: cap craw to how memories are formed and how you
Speaker 1: taste and the brain. Yeah, it's just pretty amazing stuff.
Speaker 1: I know you take it, taste delicious, it's it's our
Speaker 1: I think it's probably our favorite topic. Did you just
Speaker 1: say fifty years? Yeah? Man, hey, I going for you.
Speaker 1: Have you seen the impostor Ah? Yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: talked about it before too. It's good documentary. Good documentary.
Speaker 1: Go check that one out. Yeah. Uh, And you got
Speaker 1: anything else on cap graw No, sir, okay, cap craw
Speaker 1: crab grass cap grass, COUDI gras butter all those things.
Speaker 1: Type them into the search bar how stuff works dot
Speaker 1: com and it may or may not bring up this article.
Speaker 1: At least a couple of them will. Uh. And since
Speaker 1: I said, um, search bar, let's have a let's take
Speaker 1: a message break and now listener, Yes, buddy, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: call this one. Email from a former Mormon, former Mormon
Speaker 1: foreman before Norman. Uh. Hey, guys and Jarious listening to
Speaker 1: the podcast on marriage. Want to give you some information
Speaker 1: on Mormon marriage. Though the Church of Jesus Christ of
Speaker 1: Latter day Saints no longer practices nor supports the secular
Speaker 1: act of mirroring multiple spouses, men can still be sealed
Speaker 1: to multiple women. And I'll try and explain sealing to you,
Speaker 1: But even though I was raised a member of the church,
Speaker 1: the details are a little bit fuzzy because he's been
Speaker 1: out for a little while. Uh. Those ceiling is related
Speaker 1: to marriage and takes place at the same time. It
Speaker 1: is a separate ordinance where marriage insures that a couple
Speaker 1: receives all the legal benefits promised by the government. Sealing
Speaker 1: insures all of the religious benefits promised by the Lord.
Speaker 1: That was a good preacher, Thank you. The two main
Speaker 1: benefits that I can remember are one, the sealed persons
Speaker 1: will be together for all time and eternity. And to
Speaker 1: the sealed persons will enter into the highest level of
Speaker 1: heaven of the three, it's just three levels. I found
Speaker 1: out a man can be sealed the multiple women when
Speaker 1: my parents went through their divorce. Even though they went
Speaker 1: through the legal process of divorce, they never had their
Speaker 1: sealing nullified. When my dad remarried, he was sealed to
Speaker 1: my stepmother and to my biological mother at the same time.
Speaker 1: Later on, when my mom remarried, she had to nullify
Speaker 1: her sealing to my father because women are not allowed
Speaker 1: to be sealed to multiple men, only men to multiple women. Furthermore,
Speaker 1: my new stepfather was sealed to his late wife when
Speaker 1: he married my mother and he still is to this day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my intentions aren't to bash the church in any way. Um,
Speaker 1: but that fact that the fact that men can be
Speaker 1: sealed to multiple women is a little known fact that
Speaker 1: most people inside and outside the Church. Uh, the church's
Speaker 1: practice of polygamy doesn't bother me anymore. Educated consenting adults
Speaker 1: should be allowed to be with the ones they love
Speaker 1: in my opinion, and that's his opinion. I am bothered
Speaker 1: by the fact that they don't inform people of their
Speaker 1: policy on being sealed to multiple spouses. That's all I've got.
Speaker 1: Guys on Mormons in marriage. No longer remember the church,
Speaker 1: but I still find the religion and culture very fascinating.
Speaker 1: A podcast on how the Church of Jesus Christ at
Speaker 1: Saturday Scenes works would be amazing. And that is from
Speaker 1: Ethan even Clark. Yeah, long lost brother, and we've been
Speaker 1: asked by many uh Mormons and members of that church
Speaker 1: to do one on their religion. So we've got a
Speaker 1: whole we have a whole queue of ones that we
Speaker 1: have to do. That's kind of piling up. It's like
Speaker 1: before we hit the fifty year mark. Let's just like
Speaker 1: one after any other, the never ending cycle. We will
Speaker 1: add it to the cycle, the never ending cycle starting
Speaker 1: a tray you Uh. If you want to suggest a
Speaker 1: podcast and accompany it with the story or some outsiders
Speaker 1: former insider analysis, um, we want to hear it. You
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