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Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've heard it said before

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Speaker 1: that the more brilliant people you get into a room,

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Speaker 1: the more confusing things become. And that's the case sometimes

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Speaker 1: in forensic pathology as well, because everybody, you know, forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologists are no different than any of the rest of

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Speaker 1: us in that they all have their own opinions, which

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Speaker 1: is good, but sometimes things can be kind of murky

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Speaker 1: or confusing. And in our case here that we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about, there is a bit of confusion about

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Speaker 1: a ruling relative to a death. But one thing is

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Speaker 1: for certain. Alexandra alex Pennig, who's thirty two years old,

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Speaker 1: sustained a gunshot wound to her head, and we do

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Speaker 1: know that she didn't survive it. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: and this is body bags. They you know sometimes you

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Speaker 1: and I I know this. You're the guru. You're the

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Speaker 1: guru when it comes to all things audio and production

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Speaker 1: and all these sorts of things. And I got to

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Speaker 1: tell you, I'm glad that there's not two of us

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Speaker 1: that are brilliant because you can help me walk through

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Speaker 1: these with problems with little or no concern. I know

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Speaker 1: that the content that we put out is going to

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Speaker 1: sound good most of the time, I think, and it's

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Speaker 1: because you're you're the you're the bright one when it

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Speaker 1: comes to all of that. You can help walk through

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Speaker 1: technical problems. But sometimes, such as in this case today,

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Speaker 1: it's it's hard to make heads or tails of things.

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Speaker 1: And I think that sometimes we just throw our hands

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Speaker 1: up and say, well, I can't call it anything other

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Speaker 1: than what it is, and that is undetermined. And that's

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Speaker 1: what we're left with here.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand how that's possible. What does it really

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Speaker 2: mean when manner of death is undetermined? Now, just so

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Speaker 2: you know, today we're dealing with murder or suicide the

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Speaker 2: death of Alexandra Pinnick. She preferred to go by alex

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Speaker 2: thirty two years old. She has a gunshot to the head.

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Speaker 2: Boyfriend claims he grabbed his gun, ran in the bathroom

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Speaker 2: and shot herself. Police listened to his side of the

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Speaker 2: story and it didn't match the facts as they could

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Speaker 2: see them in the earliest moments of the investigation, and

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Speaker 2: so it was left to the medical examiner to tell

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Speaker 2: them what happened. And the medical examiner and by the way,

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Speaker 2: when you have a prosecution. You know, the defense has

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Speaker 2: their own person to come in and say whatever the

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Speaker 2: defense needs to say.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, oh well, if the defense has

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Speaker 1: enough money for.

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Speaker 2: It, right, Yeah, yeah, you got to be clear about that.

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Speaker 2: Should have been very clear. And in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: both of them, the prosecution, the actual medical examiner and

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Speaker 2: the one hired by the defense, had the same thing.

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Speaker 2: The manner of death is undetermined. What does manner of

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Speaker 2: death mean? Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's only five to select from. And when

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Speaker 1: it comes two violent deaths regarding firearms, which is what

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Speaker 1: we're going to discuss, most of the time it's going

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Speaker 1: to fit into one of one of those two categories.

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Speaker 1: It's either going to be homicide or suicide. Accidental is

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Speaker 1: an outlier you. As a matter of fact, most of

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Speaker 1: the time it has been my and in practice it was.

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Speaker 1: If someone told me that it was an accidental shooting,

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Speaker 1: I'll say you, you have to clearly explain this to

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Speaker 1: me how this was an accident before I'm going to

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Speaker 1: bite on that. Because those are a rarity when you

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Speaker 1: compare it to the number of suicides we have in

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Speaker 1: this country, because they outpaced homicides well, oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Firearm death suicide outpaces homicide.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, wow by boss by quite quite a significant margin. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, you know, possess firearms and they

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Speaker 1: see it as a quick and and powerful solution to

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Speaker 1: whatever is facing them in their lives. Uh. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have that. If you throw up accident, then it

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Speaker 1: leaves me in a position where you're going to have

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Speaker 1: to explain that to me, or the data is going

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Speaker 1: to have to play itself out where the dynamic of

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Speaker 1: that event can be easily explained and we can prove

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Speaker 1: it scientifically. But you know, there's another choice here, and

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Speaker 1: that is undetermined. And I've always I've always had this

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Speaker 1: kind of vision in my mind where when it's written undetermined,

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Speaker 1: I always have this like little cartoon character that pops

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Speaker 1: up in my brain where you got you got them,

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Speaker 1: and they're looking at you and there's just kind of

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Speaker 1: shrugging their shoulders with their hands upturned, looking at you

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Speaker 1: like I don't have an answer to this. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And in this particular case, that's what we're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: We're dealing with the case involving a gunshot wound to

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Speaker 1: the head. We can definitively say that, but the classification

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Speaker 1: of it has been left undetermined. I do know this.

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Speaker 1: I do know that the two people that are involved

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Speaker 1: in this case, the victim and the perpetrator, are both

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Speaker 1: healthcare providers. They're both nurses, and I think that probably

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Speaker 1: from the prosecution standpoint, the circumstantial evidence just didn't. It

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Speaker 1: didn't hold water in this particular case because there's certain

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Speaker 1: things that you as an observer, based upon what you

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Speaker 1: know about people that practice medicine or work in allied health,

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Speaker 1: you expect them to behave under stressful search situations in

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Speaker 1: a very specific manner, and Dave didn't happen in this case.

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Speaker 2: You know, when we get into this actual story, I

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Speaker 2: want you to know the background, because the background follows through.

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Speaker 1: We have.

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Speaker 2: A number of people involved in this relationship. Alexandra, remember

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Speaker 2: Alexandra Penning. Alex Penning is thirty two and she is

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Speaker 2: the victim. She was dating Matthew Ecker. Matthew Ecker is

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Speaker 2: forty five, married with four children. Alex was also dating

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Speaker 2: another man and his name was Shane Anderson. On the

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Speaker 2: night in question, Alexandra had had an argument was Shane

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Speaker 2: earlier in the day about their relationship. Matthew Ecker comes

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Speaker 2: to the apartment and this is all up in Saint Paul, Minnesota.

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Speaker 2: Matthew Ecker lives hours away, but he those two be

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Speaker 2: at the side of Alex while she's frustrated in the

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Speaker 2: relationship with Shane. And Matthew and Alex go out for

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Speaker 2: drinks that evening. When they come into this one place,

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Speaker 2: there is Shane Anderson with another woman. That causes Alex

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Speaker 2: to be very upset Matthew defending his girlfriend. See this

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Speaker 2: is where it gets confusing, okay, but bottom line, Matthew

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Speaker 2: is with Alex, Shane Anderson is with another woman, and

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Speaker 2: Matthew actually confronts Shane, and Shane hits him, probably says,

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Speaker 2: you're married, why are you talking to me? Get out,

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Speaker 2: you know, and hits him. Well, Shane Anderson and the

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Speaker 2: other woman leave. Matthew Ecker and Alex Penny stay at

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Speaker 2: the bar for another forty five minutes, having a couple

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Speaker 2: of drinks. Alex and Matthew go back to Alex's apartment

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Speaker 2: and this is the story that Matthew Ecker tells everybody.

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Speaker 2: They arrive at her apartment, she grabs a gun out

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Speaker 2: of his backpack, and runs to the bathroom and shoots

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Speaker 2: herself in the head. He bashes through the door and

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Speaker 2: calls nine one one tries to stop the bleeding by

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Speaker 2: holding his thumb to the bullet hole. I guess police

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Speaker 2: arrive a few minutes later, and she's already cold, stiff.

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Speaker 2: And I want to ask you about this, Joe, because

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Speaker 2: here's my question, based on Matthew Ecker's story, how soon

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Speaker 2: does a body get cold and stiff? Based on his timeline,

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Speaker 2: he calls nine four minutes after she shoots herself four minutes.

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Speaker 2: Police arrive five minutes later. So based on his timetable,

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Speaker 2: she gets shot at forty five to forty six in

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Speaker 2: the morning. At three oh five four police are there

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Speaker 2: and medics arrive and they declare her dead in the

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Speaker 2: space of nineteen minutes, I think, from shooting to declaring

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Speaker 2: her dead, and she's cold and stiff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as it said, the old saying that dog don't hunt, okay,

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Speaker 1: And you know.

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Speaker 2: So you know, Joe, I didn't know that. That's why

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Speaker 2: I'm asking because I think most of us don't know

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Speaker 2: how quickly does a body that is dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes it takes a well a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is environmentally dependent. But in a course of let's

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Speaker 1: let's let's be generous here, let's say that it was

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes, if you still wouldn't have these presentations that

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Speaker 1: you're talking about physically with the deceased individual where they're

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Speaker 1: cool to the touch. And that's the best way I

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Speaker 1: can describe it, because you know, we do things like

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Speaker 1: body temperatures at scenes and depend upon the jurisdiction. There's

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Speaker 1: multiple ways that we can get in sometime about how

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Speaker 1: we take body temperatures on the dead. But you don't

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Speaker 1: expect in a twenty minute, a twenty minute time frame

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Speaker 1: for a body to be cold to the touch. And

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Speaker 1: look if he's talking about stiffening or rigidity, and generally

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Speaker 1: that's how we refer to it, and again rigidity of

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Speaker 1: the body. That means how that goes to Roger Mortis.

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Speaker 1: It takes even longer for Roger Mortis to set in.

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Speaker 1: So any investigator that knows what they're doing, they're out

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Speaker 1: on the scene, they're making that initial assessment and they're

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Speaker 1: trying to marry this up with what he is saying scientifically.

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Speaker 1: That's why I said this dog don't hunt, because you're

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Speaker 1: not going to have these manifestations that are occurring now.

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Speaker 1: Things are happening at a cellar level. As soon as

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Speaker 1: we die, we begin to change, all right, and it's

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Speaker 1: because cellular respiration has ceased, you'll begin production of lactic acid,

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Speaker 1: which is actually what creates riger mortis. If I tell

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Speaker 1: my students at Jacksonville State, I teach medical legal death investigation,

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Speaker 1: it's this class that I've taught for years. If you

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Speaker 1: ever not that anybody would, but if you ever want

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Speaker 1: to understand what Ryger mortis would feel like, don't work

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Speaker 1: out for a while. Go to the gym and get

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Speaker 1: a vigorous workout. In the next morning, when you wake

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Speaker 1: up and you're stiff, that's lactic acid that has built

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Speaker 1: up in your body. That's about as close as you'll

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Speaker 1: ever feel to what riger is. And that takes some time, though,

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Speaker 1: and you know that's happening at a cellular level, but

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Speaker 1: it's not happening this quick. There's no way. And that's

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Speaker 1: that's how we that's in investigations, that's how we test,

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Speaker 1: at least on my side of the house, that's how

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Speaker 1: we test an alibi. Okay, if somebody is trying to

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Speaker 1: alibi themselves and say, well, this is what happened, this

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Speaker 1: is a time frame that it happened in, and this

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Speaker 1: is what I experienced at this moment, Tom And then

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Speaker 1: you're looking at what's left behind, all that remains, if

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Speaker 1: you will, we're the dead, and you know good and

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Speaker 1: well that what they're saying is not valid. And that's

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Speaker 1: the case here, Dave.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I was really curious about, Joe when

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Speaker 2: in going over this story, knowing we had it on

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Speaker 2: our table, murder versus suicide. How quickly do the police

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Speaker 2: call you to come in when they have a scene

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Speaker 2: like this pretty quickly?

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Speaker 1: And again it's jurisdictionally dependent. Okay, So but up in

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Speaker 1: if you think about the Twin Cities, if you think

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Speaker 1: about Minneapolis, Saint Paul, I was friends with the chief

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Speaker 1: investigator for Hennepon County for some time, dear lady, who

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Speaker 1: was at the top of her game. She was a

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Speaker 1: former nurse and she was the chief investigator. And that's

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Speaker 1: a top flight office that they have in Hennepon County.

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Speaker 1: Their response would have been, as soon as the police

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Speaker 1: have visualized the scene and they know that this person

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Speaker 1: is in fact deceased, they're going to say start the Emmy,

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Speaker 1: and they're going to say start CID and c IDEA

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Speaker 1: is a criminal investigation division, and start the crime scene unit.

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Speaker 1: So all three of us would essentially head out simultaneously

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Speaker 1: from our different offices. We'd show up pretty quickly, and

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Speaker 1: the sooner that we can get there to do the assessment,

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Speaker 1: the better, because the further you move down that timeline

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Speaker 1: away from when the actual event occurred, you're losing data.

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Speaker 1: And then it's the environment is producing other data that

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Speaker 1: might skew your conclusions. All right, So timeliness is a

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Speaker 1: huge factor in everything that we do. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I think our our entire existence is kind

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Speaker 1: of based upon we examined for trauma. But one of

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Speaker 1: the underpinnings of what we do is we're trying to

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Speaker 1: analyze time. We're trying to analyze a timeline and trying

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Speaker 1: to understand what is happening within a specific period there

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Speaker 1: and does it merry up with with the narrative that

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Speaker 1: we're being given. Dave, you got my head's women, man.

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Speaker 1: I often say you need a what's that thing called

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Speaker 1: the playbuild like they use for Broadway. You need to

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Speaker 1: play build to keep up with characters and a given.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about Ecker, who is a married man

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Speaker 1: with four young'un's man four four, and he's involved in

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Speaker 1: an ongoing relationship with this young lady who's thirty two.

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Speaker 1: She's I don't know what, roughly twelve years younger than him,

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Speaker 1: which is fine. I mean, that's their thing. They can do,

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Speaker 1: you know. But yet he stated in an interview that

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Speaker 1: he had been involved for some time with her and

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Speaker 1: that they I think for two years, and that they

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Speaker 1: were involved, they had an open relationship. Well, it seems

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Speaker 1: like he's open is the key word here. I mean

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Speaker 1: he's open to a lot of things, and it has

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Speaker 1: not It's not turned out well on either end of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum here for him and certainly for Alex, who's now.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what was going on in the relationship

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Speaker 2: because Alex is dead. What we only have what we

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Speaker 2: have left. Just like his story, we have Matthew Ecker's

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Speaker 2: story of what he says happened, and by the way,

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Speaker 2: according to police, his story changed. We can kind of

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Speaker 2: understand the relationship dynamics and that Alex at thirty two

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Speaker 2: and a nurse involved with an older, married guy. We

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Speaker 2: don't know if Matthew Ecker's wife knew of the relationship before,

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Speaker 2: but we know that she did divorce him when this

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Speaker 2: came out. I don't know Shane Anderson. I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to mention his name, but I had to mention his

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Speaker 2: name because as part of the story, you know, there

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Speaker 2: was something going on here that caused or seems to

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Speaker 2: have caused Alex to be upset. And the part that

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Speaker 2: I have the most questions about is what happened when

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Speaker 2: they got back to the apartment. Because Matthew Ecker's story,

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Speaker 2: and this is why I'm asking you, Joe, about how

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Speaker 2: soon a person does get cold and stiff, because these

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Speaker 2: are professional Matthew Ecker is a professional nurse. He's a

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Speaker 2: nurse practitioner. He works in the emergency room. This is

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Speaker 2: not his first, you know, bullet wound he's ever seen.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna assume no, no, it's not. And the story

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Speaker 2: he tells you just say that dog won't hunt. So

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Speaker 2: let's go over this really quickly. Because when police found Alex,

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Speaker 2: she's laying on the floor of the bathroom. Her legs

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Speaker 2: are straddling the door her the gun is placed on

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Speaker 2: her chest. I say placed for a reason, and her

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Speaker 2: hands are near it. By the way, Alex is right handed,

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Speaker 2: but the shut the bullet wound was on the left

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Speaker 2: side of her head.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, g just w to the left side, all right.

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Speaker 2: Now, while nothing is impossible, you know it does. Have

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Speaker 2: you known of a case where somebody who was right

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Speaker 2: hand dominant to shoot themselves on the left side of

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Speaker 2: the head?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Do women usually shoot themselves in the head of the heart?

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Speaker 1: Goo?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah that well, let's let's go with the first one first. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the first one first. I like that. So if they

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Speaker 1: do change hands, it is a it's an outlier. It's

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Speaker 1: not something you would come because it's like picking up

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Speaker 1: a pencil. It's like picking up a golf club or

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Speaker 1: picking up a baseball bat, or picking up your knife

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Speaker 1: and fork. You're going to use your dominant hand. Now.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how much experience Alex had had with

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Speaker 1: a weapon, but one of the questions we always ask

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Speaker 1: Dave when we're doing a suicide investigation, which suicide investigations are.

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Speaker 1: First off, I've always felt as though, from me, the

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Speaker 1: suicide investigations are much more difficult than homicide investigations because

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Speaker 1: most of the time you don't have a witness to it,

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Speaker 1: and so you're having to draw these conclusions based upon

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Speaker 1: what science is telling you. But when we begin to

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Speaker 1: interview their their intimates, their peripherals, you know, in their life,

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Speaker 1: will say, well, this is a apparent suicide. Maybe they

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Speaker 1: left a note, who knows. But was there an indication

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Speaker 1: that they were they ambidextrius? Did they could they use

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Speaker 1: both hands or were they left or right hand dominant?

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Speaker 1: And you would expect that if your right hand dominant,

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Speaker 1: that the gunshot wound would be would be on that

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Speaker 1: dependent side, and in this case it wasn't on the

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Speaker 1: left hand side. Now to this question about about do

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Speaker 1: women shoot themselves in the head, if we were having

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Speaker 1: this discussion, let's see, if we were having this discussion

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Speaker 1: in the early eighties, I would say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you you rarely have ever seen that. But you know, Dave,

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Speaker 1: as my career.

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Speaker 2: Progressed, rarely have ever seen a headshot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, with with females, And people say that there's data

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Speaker 1: that backs us up. Maybe there is. But as my

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Speaker 1: career progressed, I began to see more and more cases

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Speaker 1: of females that would in their lives much like men

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Speaker 1: did that you know, i'd have mentor oild, gunshot woes,

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Speaker 1: gunshot womanes to the side of the head, you know,

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things. I think that there was this uh,

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Speaker 1: this uh thesis is kind of put forward in our

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Speaker 1: field where it says that, you know, because of appearance,

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Speaker 1: that women were not inclined to shoot themselves in the head.

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Speaker 1: I got to be honest with you, I don't ever

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Speaker 1: remember a self inflicted gunshot wound by a female where

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Speaker 1: they shot themselves in the abdomen. I think I had

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Speaker 1: a couple in the chest, but I'd say that I

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Speaker 1: probably had more headshots self inflicted with women than I

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Speaker 1: did any other location. So I don't I just don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't buy into it that that that that idea.

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Speaker 1: Do men and women take their lives in a variety

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Speaker 1: of different ways, Yeah, they do. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's gender dependent or not, but it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things that floats around and get asked that question

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Speaker 1: a lot, you know, over the years, I've been asked

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Speaker 1: that question. But that she had a gunshot to the

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Speaker 1: head and they were thinking it might be suicide, at

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Speaker 1: least it wouldn't be surprising. I don't think to anybody

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Speaker 1: that was out there that would be working the scene.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing that's really shocking about this. Let's

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Speaker 1: go back to what you said about Eckert. Not only

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Speaker 1: is he a nurse practitioner, Dave, he's working. He's working

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Speaker 1: as a nurse practitioner in an emergency room setting, and

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Speaker 1: let's face it, a major metropolitan area. He's gonna see trauma, Dave.

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Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, I worked as an

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Speaker 1: ear tech for a number of years in college, and

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Speaker 1: in that environment, if you have gunshot wounds that come in,

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Speaker 1: knife wounds, that sort of thing, you're gonna get blood

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Speaker 1: on you. You're gonna have it on you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's the nature of what you do. You can put

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Speaker 1: on gloves, but you'll even get blood up up above

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Speaker 1: your wrist, onto your elbows, those sorts of things. You'll

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Speaker 1: get blood if you're wearing scrubs, which everybody does. That's

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Speaker 1: why you wear scrubs because they used to be almost disposable.

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Speaker 1: You know, you would get bloodstains on you. You could go

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Speaker 1: to closet, get a fresh pair and change out. So

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Speaker 1: you would expect him if he is he allegedly attempted

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Speaker 1: to stem the bleeding by placing his hand or his

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Speaker 1: finger over the defect in her head to stem the bleeding. Dave,

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Speaker 1: if that were the case. If that were the case,

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Speaker 1: he would have blood all over his hands. There's a

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Speaker 1: high probability that she probably clipped cerebral artery in there,

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Speaker 1: so it's going to be pumping blood out. It could

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Speaker 1: spray onto him. There's really no trace evidence of blood

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Speaker 1: on him, so I think that that's really making the

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Speaker 1: cops question what's going on.

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Speaker 2: He actually claims that he washed up now just to

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Speaker 2: Ecker claims that when he opens the bathroom door and

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Speaker 2: sees Alex, she shut herself in the head. He claims

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Speaker 2: he tried to stop the bleeding short of that before

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Speaker 2: he calls nine one one to report what has just

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Speaker 2: taken place. He took the time to wash himself up,

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Speaker 2: and he tells police he did it in the bathroom

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Speaker 2: sink and he washed with soap. He then calls nine

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Speaker 2: one one and he says he called nine one one

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Speaker 2: within four minutes of the shot. So you've got him

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Speaker 2: coming to the bathroom finding his girlfriend on the bathroom

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Speaker 2: floor with a gunshot wounded the head. He then removes

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Speaker 2: the gun. He takes the gun and puts it in

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Speaker 2: a suitcase. Then he comes back in after trying to

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Speaker 2: save her life, washes up using soap and water, and

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Speaker 2: apparently cleans the gun as well, because he then places

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Speaker 2: the gun on her chest and calls nine one one.

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Speaker 2: Police arrived minutes later, and the first thing they notice

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Speaker 2: he has no blood on him and the gun is

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Speaker 2: from remarkably clean. Yeah, despite the nature of this scene,

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00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 2: the gun is scrubbed clean. The fact that he uses

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Speaker 2: soap and water on his hands to ostensibly clean up

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Speaker 2: blood like that would be the worry at that point,

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Speaker 2: particular moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes no sense.

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Speaker 2: And the bathroom sink is dry. The bathroom sink is dry,

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Speaker 2: but he tells them he just used it to wash

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Speaker 2: his hands. By the way, blood on the floor of

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Speaker 2: the bathroom is drying already.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I wonder how long it takes at it seen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes, it takes it takes uh, it takes

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Speaker 1: a while. I'll put it to you that way again.

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Speaker 1: I hate to kind of weasel out of the question,

394
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Speaker 1: but it's going to be environmentally dependent, and it's going

395
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Speaker 1: to be dependent upon surface in the bathroom. Are the

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00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: carpets in there is it a tile. Uh you know what,

397
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Speaker 1: what's the temperature inside of the room, what's temperature of

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Speaker 1: the floor. That's going to promote this because you know,

399
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Speaker 1: when you get drying blood, uh, you're you're at that

400
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: point time. And when I say drying blood, I'm talking

401
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: about dry blood that's that's beginning to to flake or

402
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: it has the appearance that it doesn't have. Let's see

403
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: that the tension of the blood surface itself has diminished

404
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: to the point where it's almost at the same level

405
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Speaker 1: as the floor that it's on or the surface that

406
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: it's on. It it's it's lost all of that and

407
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: it's beginning to almost look like paint. That takes that

408
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: takes some amount of time. I'm thinking, I'm thinking beyond

409
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Speaker 1: an hour, I would I would think, and it's really

410
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: hard to judge that. But you know, here here's another

411
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: thing with the weapon. And by the way, this is

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting. He was a licensed firearms carrier. He

413
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Speaker 1: had to carry permit, and he had kept this weapon.

414
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Speaker 1: According to him in his book back which you'll see

415
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Speaker 1: a lot of nurses that are coming in on the

416
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: hospital that carry book bags. They almost look like students

417
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: and they you know, they've got extra changes of clothes

418
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: in there there whatnot, you know, is carried around and there.

419
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: He carried his weapon in there and she Alex, according

420
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: to him, went she had an awareness of the weapon

421
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: that he had one before she went into the bathroom.

422
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: She went into his bag and retrieved this weapon. She

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00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: knew it was there and went into the bathroom.

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Speaker 2: And showed it to him. Okay, she grabs it and

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Speaker 2: according to Ecker, she point has the gun in her

426
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Speaker 2: hand and she is walking backwards, telling him don't come

427
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: any closer. I'll shoot myself, and backs herself into the bathroom,

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Speaker 2: then shuts the door, and he says, within two seconds

429
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Speaker 2: of the door shutting, here's the gun. Go off, opens

430
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: the door and finds her. That's why this timetable is

431
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: very important to the whole story, because from the moment

432
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: he calls nine to one one to the minute cops arrive,

433
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: it's a very short.

434
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: Window, very very short.

435
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: There's something else that goes into this too. According to

436
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: the story Ecker told police, you know, he moves the

437
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: gun and put he again. He moves the gun, puts

438
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: it in a bag, then brings it back in places

439
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: on our chest. He says he tried to save her life,

440
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: that she was breathing when he first got there. He

441
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: tries to stop the flow of blood, but they asked him,

442
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: did you perform CPR? Again, going back to the blood

443
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: that would be everywhere, and he says, no, I did

444
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: not do CPR because I didn't know what to do.

445
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: How does a nurse practitioner working in an emergency room

446
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: not know how to do CPR?

447
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: You can't. But and that's that's that's what's so odd

448
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: about this. In order to work in an emergency room

449
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 1: or if you're going to be let's say, if you're

450
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: going to work in ic ICU or one of these

451
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: places critical care units like this, you you have to

452
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: be certified in advanced life and first off, CPR is

453
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: is that's the bottom line. I mean, these people go

454
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: through such training. I mean nurses are you know, are

455
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: the life blood of a hospital. You think about doctors,

456
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: forget it. It's the nurses that run the show and

457
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: they control everything that's there, and they are trained and

458
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: you're not trained. If you can't keep up in that environment,

459
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: you can find another job somewhere because they got other

460
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: people that'll take your job really quick. That are proficient

461
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: at what they do. This guy would have had to

462
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: have been certified in advanced life support and he would

463
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: have understood the principles behind CPR. And here's another thing.

464
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: If he had done compressions on her at the scene,

465
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: did you know that with a gunshot wound to the head,

466
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: one of the things that also happens is you'll get

467
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: this fracturing of the skull. Obviously, because you're creating, you know,

468
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: you're cavitating the cranial vault, and you've got these fractures

469
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: that go on the victim as you're doing compressions. You'll

470
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: actually get blood from the nose, the mouth, not to

471
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: mention the defect in the head. So yeah, it would

472
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: be a bloody mess. I wonder if he had an

473
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: awareness of that as well. I'm not so much concerned

474
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: about the absence of blood on his hands, Dave. What

475
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in, since he's saying that this is

476
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: in fact a self inflict AGAINSHT woman, was there no

477
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: blood on her hands? Well, it looks like they've got

478
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: quite the conundrum here, don't they. You've got a guy

479
00:31:53,280 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: that I would imagine, in the face of questioning the

480
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: local PD he ain't doing so well. And but yet

481
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: you've got a a young lady and will go ahead

482
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: and say it plainly because it's it's already out there.

483
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: She's got she's got some real emotional issues. I mean,

484
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: she's you know, fought anxiety, depression, all these sorts of things.

485
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Ecker has been providing her

486
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: with with Benzo's for anxiety, and he's also been providing

487
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: her with adderall kind of mood stabilizing. And so you, uh,

488
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: you think about that, she's got all this dynamic going

489
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: on with her, and you listen, you have to consider

490
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: that that maybe taking her own life is on the table.

491
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: As far as an investigator, you have to be able

492
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: to take all of that in consideration. Uh, that would

493
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: do that? Would it would behoove you as an investigator

494
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: to go back and dig into her past. If she's

495
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: under therapy, if she's receiving therapy, you'd want to question

496
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: the individual that's providing her therapy. And then you got

497
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 1: to talk to her friends. You got to talk to

498
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: her family members that might you know, she may have

499
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: confided in that sort of thing. It's not just talking

500
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: to Ecker or to this other fellow that she's involved

501
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: in a relationship with. This is on its surface, this

502
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: seems like a very simple case. But it's like I said,

503
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: cases like this are very very complex.

504
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: Well, the physical evidence, taking away the psychology and everything else,

505
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: just the physical evidence alone, the scene of the crime,

506
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: the scene of the incident. Yeah, was it murder or suicide?

507
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: One of the handgun didn't have blood on it. Now,

508
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: if she takes her own life, she's right handed, but

509
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: she shoots the gun with her left hand and the

510
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: left side of her head. But police get there minutes later.

511
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: By the way back to the timetable, the phone call

512
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 2: to nine one one was made at two point fifty am,

513
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: and Matthew Ecker claims that he called nine to one

514
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 2: one four minutes after she shot herself. Police arrive and

515
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: she is declared dead by medical professionals. MS workers are

516
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: there and she's declared dead at three h four am.

517
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: So from the time he called, the time he calls,

518
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 2: to the time they're there and declared dead is fourteen minutes.

519
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: Add another four minutes from the time he says she

520
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: shot herself, and you have eighteen minutes from gunshot to

521
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 2: declared dead at the scene of the crime you mentioned,

522
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: Why are her hands not bloody? What is the test

523
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: that is done by medical experts to determine whether or

524
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 2: not somebody has fired a gun?

525
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a gunshot residue test. It's there are

526
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: three major components in in in firearms, in the actual

527
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: process of kind of lighting the fuse on a projectile.

528
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: All right, So when if you just imagine, if you'll

529
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: just imagine in your mind that when you initiate the

530
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: firing sequence with any kind of firearm, when you pull

531
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: that trigger, okay, and that firing pin or the hammer

532
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: slams forward onto the base of that live round, you

533
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: have got a primer cap. And the primer itself is

534
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: a bit more unstable chemically, that is is it doesn't

535
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: take much to set it off, which is what you want,

536
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: because there's like a little cap. If you look at

537
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: the end of a live round, there's a little cap

538
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: in the end of it, and it's called a primer

539
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: cap that's tapped off. And when that's tapped off, it

540
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: creates an explosion, all right, And that explosion sparks up

541
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: through what are referred to as flash holes, and within

542
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: the flat holes, the it ignites what's referred to as

543
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: the propellant that's contained within the cartridge itself, that's the gunpowder.

544
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: So when you do when you do a GSR test,

545
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: you're looking for antimony, barium, and also lead those three components,

546
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: and primer residue is a bit different than that. So

547
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: you can get an idea that if it's if it's

548
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: primer residue that you're looking for, perhaps it it you

549
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 1: would expect to find it on a hand, all right,

550
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: that's where it's. It's kind of got a c clamp

551
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: on the on the grip of the pistol in this case,

552
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: and then you'll find the rest the remaining elements there

553
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: that kind of shower down out of this cloud you know,

554
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: you see the gun smoke, you know, cloud that comes

555
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: out and it's kind of showering down. We try to

556
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: do That's one of the reasons. Like at the scene,

557
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: and I would imagine in this particular scene, at this

558
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: particular scene, rather they would have bagged her hands at

559
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: the scene, that's what we would do, okay. And the

560
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: reason is is that when you place her body into

561
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: a body bag, sometimes the bags can sweat and you

562
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: have to protect those hands because you're going to do

563
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: a GSR test on the victim at the morgue, and

564
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: we have series of swabs that we go through and

565
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: that's sent off to the state crime lab and you

566
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 1: can test to see if she's recently fired a weapon.

567
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: The trick is I wonder. I wonder if the police

568
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: at that moment in time, based upon how unsteady his

569
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 1: story was. I wonder if they said, Okay, we need

570
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: to do a GSR test on you, and I wonder

571
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: if he submitted to that, if they actually did one,

572
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: because right now at this point, we don't know if

573
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: they did that. There's no indication that that that that

574
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: has necessarily come up. Not saying it didn't happen, but

575
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: it's one of the things that you would do in

576
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: a case like this, particularly where you're questioning the tomeline

577
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: about how everything went down and it keeps getting marked

578
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: because you you stated Dave that he changed his story

579
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: a couple of times, and for me, that's that's a

580
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: huge red flag. Well because if you're so, yeah, go

581
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: ahead the.

582
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 2: Soap and water, he claims because they noticed a man.

583
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: You said you tried to save her life, but there's

584
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: no blood on you and the gun is incredibly clean.

585
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: Uh he is the can you wash away like the

586
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: GRS test the gun residue? Did I say that? Right? GRS?

587
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: It's GSR, but YESR anyway, but they're going to test

588
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: it if you wash your hands with soap and water,

589
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: can you wash away that residue so that you do

590
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: a test on me? And it's like, I'm sorry, man,

591
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 2: it's just soap and water. I had to clean up

592
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: the blood. It's my gun. I touched the gun. I mean,

593
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 2: is there a way that he now can explain any

594
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 2: kind of residue on his hands? But I use something

595
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: water just clean them.

596
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, and just because you have just because

597
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: you have these results. First off, GSR tests are not

598
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: full for if people think that they are, they're not.

599
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: They're not.

600
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: And so that's why they're not putting a whole lot

601
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 2: of heat on that. All right, Yeah, yeah, that explains

602
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: that I wondered, Joe, I didn't know.

603
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say that GSR is in the

604
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: same realm as like a polygraph. Okay, it's not like that,

605
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: but you're not necessarily you know, they did one study

606
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: years ago with people that worked in what was it,

607
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: They worked in munitions factories, and they would randomly test

608
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: people with GSR in those environments and they would come

609
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: back with negative results. And these people have been handling munitions,

610
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, for days and days, and I always found

611
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: that that kind of interesting. They put a lot of

612
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: weight on these tests. But you know, I don't I

613
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: don't necessarily think that GSR is required in this case

614
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: because he's he's kind of betraying, you know, the original narrative.

615
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: Here's he keeps deviating from the story. And that's a

616
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 1: circumstantial in circumstantial evidence. But still he's the only witness

617
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: to all of this. He was an ear witness to

618
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: you know, any kind of statements. He certainly saw what

619
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: happened that evening, and I guess you know, you begin

620
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: to think about, well, what would be his motivation to

621
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: do this to her? Why? Why would he take her life?

622
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: And you think about maybe it all came to a

623
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: head that night in the bar where he gets into

624
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: this tete a tet with this other man in her life.

625
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: He's he's married, he's got four kids. Maybe he had

626
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: this moment in time where he's like, what am I doing?

627
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: And the only way that he can see to solve

628
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: this is perhaps taking her life. I don't know the

629
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: weapon itself, though when you look at it, there's also

630
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: you know, they were talking about how clean it was

631
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: many times, not every case, but many times. With self

632
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: inflicted gunshot wounds day you'll see evidence of what's referred

633
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: to as blowback on weapons, where you'll have blood that

634
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: will come back onto the surface of the weapon, and

635
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: if it's a close contact gunshot wound, which I really

636
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: want to get into here, you would have I've worked

637
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: cases where I've had skin, hair, brain matter in the

638
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: muzzle of the weapon where it blows back down the barrel.

639
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: You'll actually have that occur because you know that barrel

640
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: space is empty after that projectile. It happens in a flash,

641
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: but after that projectile exits the barrel, it cavitates into

642
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: the skull, and you've got this energy that's forcing backwards

643
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: towards the point of origin of this thing, and you'll

644
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: get this kind of distribution on the surface weapon. They're

645
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: not seeing that here, So I think that that's the

646
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: position that this puts the forensic pathologists, and I say

647
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: pathologist because we're plural. We've got two of them. Dave

648
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: we're talking about to uh too highly learned or learned.

649
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: I guess they say uh learned learned people here they

650
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: are board certified forensic pathologists, and they both arrived at

651
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: the same conclusion. They can't say that this is either

652
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: a homicide a suicide. They can't say it's accidental. So

653
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: their default position here is it turns out to be

654
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: undetermined in this particular case. I find that quite fascinating.

655
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: But it does end up going to court. Matthew Ecker

656
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: is charged, and it goes back to the reason I

657
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: was hitting the timeline so hard is because you really

658
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: are dealing with eighteen minutes from starting to finish on

659
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 2: her death. And his story did change. It didn't make sense.

660
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: He's a nurse practitioner working in an emergency room, didn't

661
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 2: perform CPR or do anything he knows to do. And

662
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: he was clean. The scene was clean, blood was drying.

663
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 2: There's nothing in the sink indicating anybody had washed anything

664
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: in the sink in the bathroom like he claimed. The

665
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: evidence didn't bear out his story, so he took it

666
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: to court. He was charged with her murder. It has

667
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: been adjudicated.

668
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: Joe, what's our conclusion here? Dave is he now cool

669
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,919
Speaker 1: in his heels in state penitentiary.

670
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: Matthew Philip Becker, forty five years old. His wife did

671
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: divorce him, by the way. The father of four convicted

672
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: of the sole count of second degree intentional murder not

673
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 2: premeditated for shooting thirty two year old Xandra Lee Pennig

674
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 2: in the head December sixteenth, twenty twenty two.

675
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: I've got to tell you, at the end of the day,

676
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: you think about you think about all of the effort

677
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: that went into living the lives that these people lived.

678
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: The desire to help people in healthcare, the desire to

679
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: get all of the education that's required, those hoops that

680
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: you have to jump through, and to throw it all away.

681
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks