1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Body Donors with Joseph Scott Morgan coming to you from 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: Bodybags Dave. Many many moons ago, when dinosaurs were on 4 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: the earth. One of the jobs I had was working 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: at Pickley Wiggley stocking shelves at two o'clock in the morning. 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: Worst job I ever had in my life. I hated 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: unloading those dam trucks, I really did, and then stocking 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: all the shelves. I'm not exacting enough to do it. 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: I think I lasted maybe a year, year and a half, 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: but I had them on box cutter. It was a 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: Stanley knife though a Stanley knife, you know, kind of 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: you have to unscrew on the side and then reload 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: a fresh blade and all this, and I carried it 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: in my pocket. CVS a big company, and I did 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: a little research on this earlier today, just trying to 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: you know, in the wake of having spoken with Nancy, 17 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, yeah, and I couldn't and I still 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: have yet to a state averlashed the source that CBS 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: obtains these box cutters from, but they open a lot 20 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: of boxes. I know that he is an assistant manager 21 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: of this place. And I don't know if you've been 22 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: to any drug store chain lately, they're not exactly populated 23 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: with employees. So even if you're a manager, you're gonna 24 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: be stocking shelves. You're cutting those little boxes open that 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: have come off of the truck that are back on 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: the loading dock, and you're distributing them accordingly and then 27 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: labeling everything. So he would have walked around with us 28 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: in his pocket and let me, if you like that one, 29 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: let me give you another one. He would have been 30 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: proficient with it. Okay, Now I've got a box cut 31 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: at my home, all right. Matter of fact, I think 32 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: I've got three. I think I do, And if you 33 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: ask me about my level of proficiency, I'd say not 34 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: too good. The last time I think I used one 35 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: was to repair a water hose, you know, to cut 36 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: both sides off and almost cut my thumb off. Because 37 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: I haven't used one, and you can't judge it. So 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: I think that one of the big questions is is 39 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: there an indication of a level of skill relative to this, 40 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: how clean, where the cuts, how much pressure was utilized, 41 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: and what type of specifically what type of trauma I 42 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: long for the day when I'm actually going to get 43 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: my hands on the autopsy report so I can physically 44 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: lead and read this thing from stem to stern. And 45 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: that has not occurred from me at this point, you. 46 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: Know, Joe. A full day of the trial was spent 47 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 2: on blood in DNA, and during the blood section there 48 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 2: was talk about this blood that was four feet up 49 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: in a tree. 50 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we need to be specific here, So four 51 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: feet up from the ground and four feet up from 52 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: the ground would be consistent with you or I at 53 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: our heights having blood on our hand and smearing it 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: on the tree. And that's actually that's actually a smear 55 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: or transfer. So if your hand is wet with blood, 56 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: and everybody, you know, all of our friends out there 57 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: have had some measure of experience with blood, maybe somebody else's, 58 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: certainly your own, you know, one of the things you 59 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: want to do is when you look down at your hand. 60 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: First off, you're shocked if you have blood on it. 61 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: But secondly, you're going to want to clean it off. 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: And many times, particularly if you're not in a position 63 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: to clean it off in an effective way, you would 64 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: wipe it, you know, wiping an area. I've often wondered 65 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: that if it wasn't perhaps transferred by one of the girls. 66 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: I don't know that for a fact, but I'm just 67 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: wondering if some kind of injury had taken place and 68 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: that blood had transferred one to another and maybe they 69 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: swiped it on the tree. You never know about that specifically, 70 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: but it is an interesting point because when you've gotten 71 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: multiple blood deposits at a scene and you can identify those, 72 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: that goes to this idea of movement, right, you begin 73 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: to think, you know, you've got an individual or individuals 74 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: that are kind of my graining around into space and 75 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: they're either dropping blood or swiping blood, transferring blood. This 76 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: is not an action event like arterial spatter necessarily, where 77 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 1: you've got blood that's spray onto a surface or something 78 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: like that. You've got a gunshot wound that has blasted 79 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, blood and brain all over a surface, where 80 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: you've got that kind of fine histamine deposition. It's not 81 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: what this is. And this image has been you know, 82 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: it's been all over the news for a while now. 83 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: When we were talking with Nancy Dale's, you know, I 84 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: do my researches. I have to keep up with her 85 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: because it's like it's like trying to last last over 86 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: the whirlwind with her. So I have things running on 87 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: my computer all the time where I'm researching notes as 88 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: she's talking, and you know, this image continued to pop 89 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: up the entire time, this specific image about this transfer 90 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: onto this this this this bark surface of this tree. 91 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 2: Now that we established where the bodies were found, there 92 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: were certain things we learned during the course of the investigation, Joe. 93 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 2: We learned about Libby and Abby, their families. We got 94 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: to know them. In the first days because there was 95 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 2: no resolution to this quickly. As the investigation was going on, 96 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 2: we didn't know very much. But what we did have 97 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: was some digital evidence. We had digital evidence that was 98 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 2: from Libby's phone. There was a picture that was taken 99 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 2: of Abby on the railroad on the modern high Bridge 100 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: or moanin high Bridge rather, and that photo was posted 101 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: on Snapchat. We had the picture of a man that 102 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: was caught on Libby's phone and heroically, this girl knew 103 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: something was a miss and as I don't know what 104 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 2: was said, what was done by this creepy guy that 105 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: they saw on the bridge, they call him, you know, 106 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: Bridgeman Bridge guy. But something happened. That caused Libby to 107 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: turn her cellphone her video on. Yeah, and that's where 108 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: they released this video. In the first week of the 109 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: girl's death, of the murder of these two girls, they 110 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 2: released the video and it shows bridge guy and the 111 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: audio said guys down the hill. Yeah, that alone was 112 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: enough to bring people forward to talk to police and 113 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: tell them what they saw. Three different witnesses came forward 114 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: that were on the bridge that day that saw a 115 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: bridge guy. One woman came forward three weeks later saying 116 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 2: she was scared, but she saw a guy matging in 117 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 2: that description who was covered in mud and blood at 118 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: about four o'clock that afternoon. Now back to a timeline, Joe, 119 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 2: we know the girls were dropped off by one thirty. 120 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 2: We know that Abby took that picture or that Libby 121 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: took the picture of Abbey on the bridge around two 122 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: thirteen and then and posted it and then started the 123 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: video recording where we saw the guys, that heard the 124 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: man say down the guys down the hill. There is 125 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: more to that video. It was actually forty three seconds long. 126 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: Forty four seconds. 127 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't just eight seconds, it was forty three seconds. 128 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: They have enhanced it for us to hear a little bit, 129 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: and you could actually hear Libby. And I only know 130 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: it was Libby because a local journalist went to Becky 131 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: Patty during a break and actually asked if she could 132 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: verify who the voice was, because they weren't saying, they 133 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: weren't identifying it in court as Abby or Libby, they 134 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: were merely just and and Becky's yeah, that was Libby, 135 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 2: first time she had heard her voice. They hadn't seen 136 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: the tape or heard it. Can you imagine what that 137 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: was like seven years later? 138 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: No, hitting the chest with a sledgehammer. And you know 139 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: the thing about it, I think the question that she 140 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: posed in that recording was it was in response to 141 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: down the hill. It was like, down here, Yeah, I 142 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: think there was something. There's no yeah, there's no trail. 143 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: Yeah you want to Yeah, you know, this is what 144 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: you want us to do. We've already talked about the 145 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: size of this thing. You know, there's an indwelling fear already. 146 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: You know you want us to go down down here, 147 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: and what's your purpose for taking us down here? I'm 148 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: glad that you referred to her as a hero, because 149 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: there's so many people out there nowadays that throw around 150 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: the term hero. You're a hero or you're a real 151 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: hero for doing this. You're not. This is a hero, 152 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, this is uh, this is Audi Murphy's stuff 153 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: right here. I don't see how she had the presence 154 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: of mind to do what she did, but she felt 155 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: something at that moment time that scared her. And you know, 156 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: she was probably afraid for her her friend as well. 157 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: At this moment time, she knew something was wrong and 158 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: she didn't she wasn't just this kind of uh, you 159 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: know what what do they what do they say? This 160 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: kind of retiring little flower. It's like she said, Okay, 161 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: I'm documenting this. You know, she's going to get it. 162 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: She's going to record it because you never know what's 163 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: going to happen. In this case, they had no idea, 164 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: you know, who would have thought that this would happen 165 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: in Delphi, Indiana of all, this a flea speck place. Again, 166 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: not disparaging the place, but it is out of the way, 167 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: my man, it's a long ways way, you know. And 168 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: what was it about this individual that caught her her 169 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: eye at that moment in time, out of all the 170 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: other people around there that caught her eye that kind 171 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: of sewed this this feeling of fear or you know, 172 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: just you know, made the hair on the back from 173 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 1: next stand up for some reason. And she did that, 174 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: and you know, in a weird way, Dave, I think 175 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: I think you know you were talking about how it 176 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: kind of brought people out of the out of the woodwork, 177 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, because now you're getting this idea of a 178 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: script that's coming in a description rather not a script, 179 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: but a description of this individual may be very rudimentary 180 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: and primitive, but a description none the less. This recording 181 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: might be everything in this case. The fact that she 182 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: took that step might hold all of the answers, and 183 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: it's certainly a place where the investigation could start. 184 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 2: I think we know one of the things that I 185 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: mentioned about one of the women who came forward seeing 186 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: describing the guy with mud and blood on his body. Okay, 187 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: I don't know whether she is a credible witness or not. 188 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: They brought her up and put her on the stand, 189 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: but you know, she's from that area, and she said 190 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: she was afraid. And you know, if you were from 191 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: the area, and you know in an area we live 192 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: in areas like that, they're fairly small, and in our 193 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: place we live, We know the people around us. You 194 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: would be in fear that this could take place in 195 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: your community, that that person has not been caught. What 196 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: are they going to do if I come forward? Nobody 197 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: knows who this person is. They might be right here. 198 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: And so three weeks go by before she and she 199 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 2: actually came forward because the police had set up areas 200 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,599 Speaker 2: around the around the park to ask questions, you know, 201 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: the little id check thing, and they would do you, 202 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 2: you know, what were you doing? Were you here this day? 203 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: What did you see? Did you see a car? And 204 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: that's where she actually gave her first statement was to 205 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: this officer, Yeah, I saw a guy and you know 206 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: he was muddy and bloody that day at four o'clock. 207 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 2: So here we are with these different eyewitness accounts. Joe 208 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: and you have taken an opportunity on several occasions to 209 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: mention our friend Cheryl McCollum and her incredible podcast called 210 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: Zone seven. Yep, they did an episode on Delphi recently 211 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: and talked about the different descriptions that were given of 212 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: Bridge Guy. Police identified Bridge Guy because, as I said, 213 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: the first couple of days after they had the video, 214 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: they released this very short video clip of bridge guy 215 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: and saying girl guys down the hill, and the description 216 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 2: that was given by the three different individu jewels that 217 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: said they saw a bridge guy were all different. Yeah, 218 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: And I thought how interesting it was because Cheryl pointed isign. 219 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: And I've been waiting to ask you this because you've 220 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: undoubtedly been around every type of investigation there is, Joe, 221 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: if somebody gives a description of what they see, even 222 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 2: though at the time it doesn't seem that important, And 223 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 2: if you were to ask me about somebody from the 224 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: Dixie Mart when I got gassed the other day at 225 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: three o'clock in the afternoon, Yeah, I remember seeing a 226 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 2: guy wearing a blue jacket. I don't remember much else, 227 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: you know, but if you start asking me, I'm going 228 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 2: to give you answers. Yeah, he did have a nose 229 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: and he had an ear. I think he had eyes 230 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: because I don't know if he had glasses, but I 231 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: know there was at least one eye. I mean, I'm 232 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: going to give you the answer you're asking me for, 233 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: and it's going to be based on my interpretation of 234 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 2: what my background is and what I see. And at 235 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 2: my age, somebody that is forty years old is just 236 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 2: when I was twenty, somebody that was forty was old. 237 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: Yes, you're absolutely right, and it's it's also going to 238 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: be impacted by your level of fear as well. Interestingly enough, 239 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: ending this past week, I finished the series with my 240 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: intro forensic students at JESU Jack State where I was 241 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: teaching the section intro Forensics in Forensic Psychology. And there 242 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: was a psychologist, German psychologist back in the late eighteen 243 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: hundreds where he began to form a theory about memory recall, 244 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: and he was one of the first he's considered one 245 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: of the fathers of forensic psychology. And it all started 246 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: kind of by accident because he was wondering, are how 247 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: are memories impacted over period of time by eyewitnesses because 248 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: he was seeing there was a failure or an inconsistency 249 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: in eyewitness testimony. And one of the things that he 250 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: came up with is that there's this idea of kind 251 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: of layering that goes on in the brain and it's 252 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: almost done in order to protect you, and so things 253 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 1: that may have been very fearful for you begin You 254 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: know that over a period of time, your remembrances begin 255 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: to kind of morph a little bit they change, and 256 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: it can happen for any number of reasons. Maybe other 257 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: daily experiences, maybe you get distracted from that memory and 258 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: particularly moving on your life, or maybe it's just something 259 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: that scared you to your core. And you're talking about 260 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: this lady that offered testimony relative to mud mud blood 261 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: man on the bridge. You never know how she was 262 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: impacted in those weeks. You know, people that judge her 263 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: don't judge her too harshly now, And I'm saying that 264 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: in very broad terms here, because you don't know what 265 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: she was going through internally and then all of a 266 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: sudden something sparked her. And I think a lot of 267 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: this has to do perhaps would the size the community, 268 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: and you don't know. I mean, it might be the 269 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: person that's in pew next to you at church. It 270 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: might be the person that's at the grocery store bagging 271 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: the groceries, or it could be the pharmacy tact that's 272 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: filling your prescription. You're the local chief of police, you're 273 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: the county sheriff, you're the leader of the state police. 274 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: You know that there is something out there that is 275 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: so evil and something that you can't necessarily morally plumb. 276 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: The depths of because of what you're born witness to. 277 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: You want to get a locked down, You want to 278 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: find this person, this individual that did this. Where do 279 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: you go? Where do you go? I think that on 280 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: the surface of it, Dave, you think we've got a 281 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: very small population to deal with. It's not like we're 282 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: in you know, south side of Chicago here, We've got 283 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: millions of people. We've got a limited number of folks here. 284 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, going back to what 285 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: you had said previously, that I think most people thought 286 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: this is they're gonna have this tied up pretty quick. 287 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: They're gonna have tied uput pretty quick. I'm I'm almost 288 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: certain of it that they're going to put this thing 289 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: to rest. And boy, nothing could have been further on 290 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: the truth. 291 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: They had people that were persons of interest early on, 292 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: a lot of them, and there are still a couple. 293 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: I don't know that it's been solved yet. I know 294 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: we're at trial with Richard Allen. You know, he has 295 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: been arrested, charged, confessed sixty one times. But I'm not 296 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: convinced he's the only one. And I've got questions for 297 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: you about that. But I want to back up very 298 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: quickly because we need to put it to bed so 299 00:16:58,480 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: we can move on. 300 00:16:59,040 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: Because I. 301 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 2: The part I dreaded the most was what happened to 302 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: those little girls, what was done to them physically. But 303 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: there were two different pictures drawn of a suspect the eyewitnesses. 304 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: One was in twenty seventeen, shortly after the murders. Another 305 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: one was done in twenty nineteen. The pictures are similar, 306 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: but not close enough. The pictures don't look like the 307 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 2: guy they arrested. But the guy they arrested was not 308 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 2: arrested in twenty seventeen. He was arrested in twenty twenty two. 309 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: And people change. You know, there are people in their 310 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 2: early forties show that could pass for thirty, and five 311 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: years later they could pass for sixty. There's that gap 312 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: there in your forties where there are old. There are 313 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 2: people that look old at forty two, others look young. 314 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's and that's what we're dealing with in 315 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: Richard Allen. And so I looked at those the sketches 316 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: of this possible bridge guy or the suspect, and I 317 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: don't put any stock any either one of them, just 318 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: because I know, like I told you before, if you 319 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 2: were to ask me about somebody who unless I saw 320 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 2: them in the act of doing something, they're not really memorable. 321 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: I would now be taxing my memory on something I 322 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: wasn't really paying attention to. 323 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you know these so called sketches that 324 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: people do. Many times you have some that are very 325 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: high quality, but it always seems like there's a big 326 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: let down at the end. It seems like every single 327 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: time you'll have somebody who'll say, well, God, this thing 328 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: that they generate looks nothing like the person. And I 329 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times I've heard people say 330 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: that over the years, and they're not This is not 331 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: a sketching, is not a scientific, you know, pursuit. This 332 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: is it's a lot about art and interpretation and just 333 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 1: trying to lend some semblance of a face to an 334 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: individual that may have been seen from a distance, may 335 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: have been seen in a flash, may have been when 336 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: the person bearing witness to it was under great duress. 337 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: You never know, you know what the genesis for any 338 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: of these images are. And the fact that you've got 339 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: these two images that are desperately different. One guy looks heavier, 340 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: he's you know, he's got this very distinctive kind of 341 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: pattern to his facial hair. The other guy's got curly hair. Oh, 342 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: and the other guy's wearing a cap. The other guy 343 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: looks very much younger than the other one, you know, 344 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: he's kind of fresh faced looking compared to the old 345 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: guy looks like an old hound dog maybe sag and 346 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: skin and whatnot. So they're completely different. But again, it 347 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: all depends upon perspective. And listen, I mean the door 348 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: is open here, I think for a lot of reasons 349 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: relative to involvement of everything. And look, I'm not implicating 350 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: this guy, but I got to tell you, you know, 351 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: I had alarm bells that went off some time ago, 352 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: you know, because they hooked this one guy up, this 353 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: keygan klined guy like you know that was involved in 354 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: child porn and this sort of thing. And then you 355 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: you you recalculate with what has occurred with these precious 356 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: little girls and the condition that their body was found 357 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: and not just let me rephrase that it wasn't necessarily 358 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: just the condition it was. Again, I go back to 359 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: this idea of posing. There's a strong sexual element here. 360 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: You're talking about pubescent girls that are you know, that 361 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: might hit right into the wheelhouse of somebody. Because these 362 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: people that have these affectations for uh uh, you know, 363 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: these pedophiles that have this affectation for children, they actually 364 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: many time zero in on specific age groups that younger 365 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: ones don't do it for them and older ones don't 366 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: do it for them. It's a specific age group, and 367 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: both of these young girls fit into a specific age 368 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: you could bracket them together. And so I've you know, 369 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: I've thought about that because I'm thinking, you know, it's like, 370 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: what would be the purpose of eradicating two young girls 371 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: in this tiny little community. You know, what could they 372 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: have ever have done to somebody? What would be your 373 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: motivation for wanting to end their life? Are you saying that, 374 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, perhaps you just wanted to experience what it 375 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: was like to kill somebody, And so, with a big splash, 376 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: your first kills are going to be two girls that 377 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: are not in school that day. This is what you're 378 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: starting out with. And to me, it's always been shocking 379 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: on that level that this guy decided to do this 380 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: on this particular day and he didn't just kill one child, 381 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: he killed two children. So it's always that has that's 382 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: an element to this that's always bothered. 383 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: Me all right now, Joe. The girls are best friends, 384 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 2: about the same age, one thirteen, one's fourteen. 385 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: But yep, they. 386 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: Their body were found within five feet of one another. 387 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 2: You said you believe they were posed the injuries suffered. 388 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 2: The initial description was that Libby was nude, that she 389 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 2: had multiple markings, slash marks on her throat, there was 390 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 2: blood all over her. While Abby was wearing some of 391 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: Libby's clothes, she didn't have blood all over her body, 392 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 2: although you could tell that she had a wound at 393 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: her neck. There was blood that could be seen through 394 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: a shirt. There was blood there. And when you look 395 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: at two girls, same age, best friends, and yet left 396 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: in such dramatically different conditions where one has been knife 397 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: several times about the throat, the other once. The other 398 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: is bloody, the other is not. One is nude, one 399 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: is clothed with the other girl's clothes mostly, but still 400 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: that's a big difference between their treatment after death. 401 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: It is, you know, and there's partial covering that's going 402 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: on here, you know, with these these branches that everybody 403 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: has talked about for so long now. But when you 404 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: there's one troubling point to this that if we didn't 405 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: have enough troubling points I think about Libby. I've often 406 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: wondered if she if she was a target in this 407 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 1: because she's the one that's found nude. She's the one 408 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: that's found dude. Let's understand that. And when she's when 409 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: she's observed, she is observed in what we refer to 410 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: as a soupine position, which means she's flat on her back. Essentially, 411 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: her left arm kind of extends diagonally up up in 412 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: to the left left arm. The right arm extends downward, 413 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: kind of diagonally away from the body, her palm, her 414 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: hand is slightly rotated where you could still see her 415 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: palm with the left arm kind of slightly bent at 416 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: the elbow, palm exposed. And then, if we are to 417 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: understand what was stated at trial, her legs are slightly 418 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: spread apart with with Abby, she's clothed, and we have 419 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: to take into consideration some of Libby's clothing has been 420 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: transferred onto her body, which is bizarre in and of itself. 421 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: I've worked cases of redressing bodies over the years. Every 422 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: single one of them I've ever worked had it was 423 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: a serial killer that had done it because they have 424 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: time with the body they love, doing this, some of 425 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: them do because they dehumanize the people to the point 426 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: where they'll treat them almost like dolls, where that they 427 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: can manipulate into any fashion. But when you see Abby's 428 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: body again, she's covered with these kind of randomized branches, 429 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Her left leg is crossed over 430 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: her right leg, right knee is bent slightly, and it's 431 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: kind of rotated out so that if you looked at her, 432 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: you could clearly see the soul of her of her 433 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: right shoe. And but again she's in a soupine position, 434 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: which means on her back. Both these both these young 435 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: girls are on their back when they're there. It's just 436 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: said Libby's nude. Abby is not. As a matter of fact, Abby, 437 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 1: if you look at it from this perspective, she's overly 438 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: clothed compared to Libby. Now I'm no forensic psychologist, don't 439 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: want to be, but I'm just I think that you 440 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: have to ask the question what, not why, but what 441 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: would be the purpose of taking one child's clothing off 442 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: and putting them on the other child. What is there 443 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: a message here? Because how easy would it be Dave 444 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: just to take Libby's clothing and toss them toss them 445 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: by virtue of the fact that you're dressing other child 446 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: in one of in the other child's clothing. You're taking 447 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: time and for this individual to do this because it's 448 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: a sexually motivated event, This is precious time, because time 449 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: is what you want, you know, it's what you want 450 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: with with these two victims, and that takes a considerable 451 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: amount of time to do it, particularly when you're there 452 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: handling these bodies that are face that's supersaturated with blood. 453 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: You may or may not have any experience with blood. 454 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: You don't know what it's like to kill somebody, but 455 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: yet you take the time to manipulate the bodies to 456 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: the point where you're redressing. There's something a lot deeper 457 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: and darker going on here. That's why you know, for me, 458 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: there's in the minds I at least there's a there's 459 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: an element of sexualization that's going on. That's why when 460 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: this keeking character came up, the keying client character, I 461 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: didn't know if he was so sated with it or not. 462 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: But when I start hearing child pornography, what does that 463 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: go to, Well, it goes to imagery in the mind's 464 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: kind of fantastic world instead, you know, with whoever perpetrate this, 465 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: they very well. These are no longer images a digital image. 466 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: This is no longer a paper image. This is this 467 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: is human that you have now that fits within the 468 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: parameters of what you desire in your dark, dark heart. 469 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: Here and now you have time. You know what you know? 470 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: I harkened back to we've heard a lot about Lisk, 471 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: you know, Long Island, Syrial Hill. I do you remember 472 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: what he said on his list, Dave, that long list? 473 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: Remember what he said? There was one spot that was 474 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: marked on there that said lay time. Just this past 475 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: week I had this thought. I guess it was back 476 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: on Monday. I had that thought about Playtom would list 477 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: now thinking was this Playtom? It's just not contained in 478 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: the environments outside, you know, in an open area where 479 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: you're running the risk being found. 480 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: Well, all right, stop right there and let me ask you, Joe, 481 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: because we know that at two thirteen they're on the bridge, 482 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: because Libby takes a picture and then we've got the video, 483 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: so we know we know they were alive two fifteen 484 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: in the afternoon. We know that when Libby's dad shows 485 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: up to pick them up at three point thirty, Libby's 486 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 2: not answering her phone, and they're not where they're supposed 487 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: to be. Within an hour, the park is being searched. 488 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 2: So within two hours of the time her phone was on, 489 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 2: the girls are gone and the park is being saturated 490 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: with people screaming her name, Libby, Abby looking for him 491 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: all over. The bodies are found less than a half 492 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: mile from the abandoned bridge. 493 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, now, yeah. 494 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: The damage done to the bodies, the playtime, the staging. Okay, 495 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 2: let's back up to the injuries. Abby has one slice 496 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: across her throat, cuts her jugular bank. 497 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: Correct. Yes, yeah, with Abby, she's got one injury to 498 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: her throat. And let's keep in mind of the two girls, 499 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: it has been stated plainly by multiple people that Abby 500 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: was the passive, the more passive of the to She's shy, retiring. 501 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: She talked to you if you were her buddy, if 502 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: you were her friend. Other than that, I'll bets are off. 503 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: Whereas you know, we've got videography of Liberty where she's clowning. 504 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean, she's she's outgoing, you know. If I can 505 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: imagine if she was at a school dance and they 506 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: started playing a song, she's out and dance for she's 507 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: gonna dance and she's gonna celebrate. She skunna dance around. 508 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: She's an athlete, you know, she plays softball just on 509 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: and own. 510 00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: Uh. 511 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: Just you know that these two, you know, opposites attract, right, 512 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: so you would have you would you would suspect these 513 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: two would be paired together, that they would find interest 514 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: in in one another. So when you think about them, 515 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: and you look at Libby and look at her injuries 516 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: compared to Abby's, and again, this is one of the 517 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: reasons I was thinking that was Libby. Was Libby targeted 518 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: because her her injuries to her neck and she's also 519 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: got a pretty robust insult to her shoulder as well. Uh. 520 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: And they were very non specific about that in the 521 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: testimony with the forensic pathologists. She's got these these insults 522 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: to her neck multiple they said, four, maybe five. And 523 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: one of the problems that you have with when you're 524 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: using a sharp instrument to cut a throat, and I'll 525 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: just be very specific about that that this is uh 526 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: you know that their throats were cut, is that sometimes 527 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: it's hard to make out because you will have injuries 528 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: that will overlap and they'll cross one another, particularly linear 529 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: injuries like this, and you can't tell where one ends 530 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: and the next one begins, so you'll get this kind 531 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: of cross communication with them, and sometimes the forensic pathologists 532 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: will We'll look at it and say, you know, injury 533 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: four may very well be a singular, standalone injury, but 534 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: we have another feature here that could imply that this 535 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: is a second, more superficial injury that we might call 536 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: injury five. And when they give them numbers, I've said 537 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: this before, but it bears repeating. This does not go 538 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: to sequence. It doesn't. It has nothing to do with sequence. 539 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: It's just trying to if you're testifying in court to injuries. 540 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: It's so that the doctor on the stand can look 541 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: and say, okay, referring to my notes or referring to 542 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: this injury, this is one I've identified as number one. 543 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that it happened in that sequence, but 544 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to describe number one to you now. Right now. 545 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: Got Libby's with multiple slices across her throat, and it 546 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: was suggested that that could happen if she was struggling 547 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: trying to get away. We also have blood all over 548 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: her hands and arms, like she was covering trying like 549 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 2: you would normally. Do you bleed, you immediately try to 550 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: cover it up to stop the bleeding. Where Abby didn't 551 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: have those types of things. There's not blood all over 552 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: Abby's hands and there is only the one slice mark. Also, 553 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: whereas Abby, her jugular was cut, but her slice on 554 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 2: her neck was not as deep as Libby's. And according 555 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: to the forensic pathologist, she wouldn't have died right away, 556 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: and she could have become unconscious fairly quickly. But she 557 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: you know, it was not a kill shot, a kill 558 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 2: strike with the knife or box cutter. And yet again, 559 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: how does a one person manage two girls who are 560 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: filled with energy? How do you keep them where you 561 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: can cut one and then the other. They're not cut simultaneously. 562 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 2: I mean, they're not cut at the same time. They 563 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: are cut at different times, and there's no sign that 564 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: they were restrained other than there is a mark on 565 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: each of their chins that could be tape marking. 566 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you would think that somebody that was going to 567 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: perpetrate this would feel it prepared with bindings, also with 568 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: tape in order to muffle any kind of sign, or 569 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: you can use tape to bind with as well. I've 570 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: had multiple cases where people have been duct taped, you know, 571 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: the wrists behind them or in front of them, and 572 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: their ankles duct taped as well. There's no evidence of 573 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: that though, because one of the things you're looking for. 574 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: First off, I'm interested to try to understand how they 575 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: examine this indication on the chin, was their residue there, 576 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: because all of us and anybody this is not rocket science. Guys, 577 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: don't be afraid of it. Okay, when anybody can identify 578 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: with what tape residue looks like, all you got to 579 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: do is peel a piece of duct tape off of 580 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: something that you've had it adhere to for a while, 581 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: and you'll get that kind of looks like black rosin 582 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: that's kind of left behind all of us. Well, we 583 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: see that on bodies too. You know, it will leave 584 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: evidence of that. And then if you're going to use 585 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: a chord, there's gonna be markings, and particularly if you 586 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: do this in life, which I don't know why you 587 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: would do it in death unless it goes to the 588 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: idea of you know, kind of play acting with the bodies. 589 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: But there's no evidence they were bound because you would 590 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: have not necessarily rope burns but you could have indications 591 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: that they had struggled against some kind of binding on 592 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: the wrist or their ankles, or whether the case might be. 593 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: They're not seeing that. And this goes to the bigger 594 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: question that people have been asking this for a long 595 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: long time. I still don't have an answer to it. 596 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: And here it is, how can one person facilitate the 597 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: brutal homicide of two young girls? And as you mentioned, Dave, 598 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: you know they're young, They're full of energy, you know. 599 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, And to my way of thinking, 600 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: Libby may very well have been the first one because 601 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: she presented the biggest threat because she is an athlete. 602 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 1: I think that she would fight. What if she did fight? 603 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: What if? What if? And I don't know this that 604 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: had happened. Abby was made to watch, she was made 605 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: to watch while her friend's throat was cut multiple times, 606 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,479 Speaker 1: and then maybe she felt hopeless, maybe she didn't flee. 607 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what had happened. That's where the gun 608 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: comes in as well, because I tell you, people keep 609 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: throwing around the term box cutter. All right, I might 610 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: be intimidated, you know, by some crazed lunatic with a 611 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: box cutter, but I can tell you my intimidation or 612 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: level to which I am intimidated, is not going to 613 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: rise to the same level as a will as somebody presents, 614 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 1: you know, with a six hour nine millimeters or forty 615 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,959 Speaker 1: caliber and you know, puts that thing in my face 616 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: and then they racked that slide and you hear that 617 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: metallic sound which we've heard on every television show since 618 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 1: we were born. And you know what that means. These girls, 619 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: country girls, they know what it sounds like for a 620 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: weapon be fired. I submit to you. They've probably eaten 621 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: wild game before they know what the end result is. 622 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: So when you begin to brandish a weapon, you can 623 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,439 Speaker 1: make anybody do pretty much damn well anything you want 624 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: to do. And that's why this thing was ejected out 625 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: on the ground. He was menacing Dave, whoever did this, 626 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: was menacing these kids. And I don't know, I've wondered 627 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: did he present with this weapon in a waistband or 628 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,959 Speaker 1: maybe down in his pocket. He said, okay, down the hill, Okay, guys, 629 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: down the hill, and he's brandishing this weapon the entire time. 630 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: Maybe something that we can't appreciate on video. You never know, 631 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: maybe he gives them the directive immediately, and then once 632 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: they're down the hill, he takes that weapon out. You know, 633 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: he's shaking at them. They see this, they see this. 634 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: And then, to emphasize the point, when he gets down there, 635 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: he ejects that round, that unspent round. He ejects it 636 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: and then makes a fatal mistake of leaving that there. 637 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: I think that that when they saw it. I heard 638 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: Nancy refer to that earlier today. She was talking about 639 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: how it glistened. It glistened. That's why this the idea 640 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: that I think the Defense Council for Alan had had stated, Well, 641 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: how do you note that round wasn't something that had 642 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: been there previously. Maybe they'd gone out target practicing or 643 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: something like that. Here's the reason why I know it. 644 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: You're just coming out of winter. You've got an ejective 645 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: round that's laying out in the open. Guess what they do. 646 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: They weather, they corrode. It's not going to glisten like that, 647 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: not to that point you're going to see you know, 648 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: you can see it. There is a perceptible difference between these. 649 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: You know, they'll take on almost a green color to them. 650 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: They're not going to remain kind of shiny in pristine, 651 00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: so that gives me an indication to see was probably 652 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: freshly deposited. 653 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 2: Now we know that you mentioned the bullet listening it 654 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 2: was in between the two girls. Yep, it had been chambered, 655 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 2: it had been racked. You mentioned that when investigators were 656 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,959 Speaker 2: looking when they got the search warrant to search Richard 657 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: Allen's home, they came up with a number of weapons 658 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 2: and one of them was a sixth hour that this bullet. 659 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 2: The prosecution is saying that that bullet was chambered in 660 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 2: this gun that he owned, and they have ways, we 661 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 2: know that of finding out where bullets went because it's 662 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: just they say, it's just like a fingerprint when the 663 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 2: bullet goes in the Is that true? And they mentioned 664 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 2: a cartridge. What is the difference between an unspent round, 665 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: a bullet and a cartridge. 666 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: Shoe, unspent rock. Unspent round means that this is live, ammo. 667 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: This thing's never been discharged. So when they do this analogy, 668 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: they say it's analogous to a fingerprint, maybe maybe a 669 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: fired projectile that is one that has been discharged. It 670 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: spun down the chamber, I mean down down the barrel 671 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: of the weapon, it exits a muzzle, and within within 672 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: the muzzle itself, you know, you have lands and grooves, 673 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: lands or the high portions, and it twists. Okay, it 674 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: looks like a candy cane. Okay, that's the best way 675 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 1: to describe it. So if you imagine, if you're looking 676 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: at a red white candy cane, Okay, the white is 677 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: going to look like a canyon. The red is going 678 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: to look like a plateau. So the plateau is the land, 679 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: the canyon is the groove. And so what happens is 680 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: as that projectile is fired and the casing itself is ejected, 681 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,760 Speaker 1: the spent casing. As that lead core projectile is fired 682 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: and it travels down the muzzle, it's spinning. It's been 683 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: captured by the lands and grooves. Therefore it's spinning. It's 684 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: almost like if you've ever seen a quarterback throw a 685 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: wounded duck football and it kind of flips all about 686 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: and everything has no velocity. Well, if you can get 687 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: a bullet to spin because it's rifled. This is the 688 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: rifling of a bullet. It maintains the trajectory of it, 689 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: It preserves the energy, it makes it go further, and 690 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 1: it delivers more power upon impact. It's not like shotgun. 691 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: It's a smooth bore. So with those markings on a 692 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: spent projectile that you could use the analogy about a fingerprint, 693 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: not with spent shell casing. So you might be in 694 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: the ninety ninety percentile relative to relative to a fired projectile. 695 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: But you know you're talking fifty to sixty with an 696 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: ejected live round because what you're looking at you don't 697 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: have the lands and grooves. You're looking for something markings 698 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: on the soft brass outer portion or it can be aluminum, 699 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: depend upon who manufactured the round, what type round it was. 700 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: You have what are called ejector and extraction marks. And 701 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: what happens is this semi automatic weapons a six hours 702 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: so it has a slide on top of it. So 703 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: as this weapon is fired in order to shell or 704 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: get rid of discard that's spent, that spent casing, it 705 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: ejects it up and to the right. Okay, then the 706 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: slide slams forward, pushing a live round back into the chamber. 707 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: So when this thing ejects the the extractor, which has 708 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: little teeth on it, grab it, grab the base of it. 709 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 1: If you think about a bullet, a bullet has a base. 710 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: It's kind of like the circle that goes around it. 711 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: At the bottom. It's got a lip on it, so 712 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: it grabs it and it has specific markings that leave behind. 713 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: It's metal on metal day. It grabs it and then 714 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: the ejector is on the side and it literally punches 715 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: it out again metal and metal contact. You've got hard 716 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: metal going up against if you're going up against brass, 717 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: and brass wants softest metals in the world, So these 718 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: little indentations are left behind. But there's not a lot 719 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: else you can really hang your hat on. There might 720 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: be a breech block, a breach block mark on the 721 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: on the base of it. I'm not really sure about 722 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: that if they were able to find that, And that's 723 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: where the thing slims into the back where the firing 724 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: pin is housed. But you know this, this thing is 725 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: non tapped, so that means that the firing pin has 726 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: not driven home through the percussion cap to initiate this. 727 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: You've just got these markings on side of this soft brass. 728 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: There's nothing on the projectile itself, so that though I 729 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 1: think that they're probably accurate when they test ejected this thing, 730 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, because they got their hands on it, and 731 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: they would have taken the firearms lab. I'm I don't know. 732 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: It could either be the Indiana State Police lab they 733 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: would have take could have done it there at the 734 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: at their ballistics lab. You know, I'm thinking perhaps they 735 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: sent this to the FEDS and they would have done it. 736 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: They could have done it very well at Quantico or 737 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: maybe even ATF dependent you know, dependent upon who's you know, 738 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: let's face it, if you're going to ATF where that 739 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: ATF has incredible resources. They're the number one agency and 740 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: federal agency when it comes to examination of firearms evidence. 741 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: So you would want it in the hands of pros. 742 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: And it's going to take a pro to be able 743 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: to describe this because it's going to be a big 744 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: it's going to be a major point of contention. 745 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 2: I think it's the one piece of direct evidence tying 746 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 2: Richard Allen to these crimes. Up until now, we have 747 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 2: a blurry video enhanced audio of somebody who could be 748 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 2: somebody maybe him on the bridge. We do know that 749 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 2: this bullet was found between the. 750 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: Bodies, and that's it. 751 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 2: There's no DNA there is that we know of right now, 752 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 2: right now, Yeah, this is it that unspent bullet, that 753 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 2: unfired bullet is all we have, tying Richard Allen directly 754 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 2: to the bodies of Livy and Abby, and that you. 755 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: Know, that's the rub in this case that they say 756 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: now again, I will say this plainly. We're in the 757 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: middle of the trial right now, but I felt compelled 758 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: to go ahead and lay this down for Bodybags and 759 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: for all our friends out there. I wanted this to 760 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: kind of orient ourselves. And I make you this promise. 761 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: I make it to you, David, I make it to 762 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: all of our friends out there. As the case continues 763 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: to develop, we will be back with another episode of 764 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: Body Backs, and when the case is concluded again, we 765 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: will come back with a final assessment of the case, 766 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 1: regardless of the outcome, because this is the thing that 767 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: has been bothering us all for years. It's the thing 768 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: that we want all of the answers for. But now 769 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: we've laid the foundation. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 770 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: is Bodybacks.