1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by FX's Fleischman Is in Trouble, 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: starring Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Danes, Lizzie Kaplan, and Adam Brodie. 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: The strama tells the story of recently divorced Toby Fleischmann, 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: who dies into the world of at bass dating with 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: the kind of success he never had in his youth. 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: Then his ex wife disappears, leaving him with their two 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: children and no hint of her return effectus. Fleischman Is 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Good Morning, 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: peep Sin, Welcome to Okay after Daily with Me your Girl. 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: Danielle Moody back recording live from our pod stream studios 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: here in Times Square. Folks. It has been a long week, 12 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: a long week, and I know that as we make 13 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: it to every single Friday, find something today and every day, 14 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: but find something at the end of this long week 15 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: to give gratitude for. It could be something small, it 16 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: could be something you know, major that happened, But I 17 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: want to offer up what I'm giving gratitude for today, 18 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: which is this. Earlier this week, if you follow me 19 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: on Instagram or Facebook, I posted about participating in an 20 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: intergenerational women's literary storytelling event. The theme for the event 21 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: was the Other Me and how they describe The theme 22 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: was saying that you know, in the month of Halloween, 23 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: that let's talk about and bring to life our shadow selves. 24 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: That there are so many different facets of ourselves, that 25 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: we reveal two different people in different situations and bring 26 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: that person to life with a real experience that you 27 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: have had. And you were given a maximum of twelve 28 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: hundred words to write, and then you were then to 29 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: perform that. And I decided for the first time ever 30 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: outside of you know, casual mentions on woke AF, to 31 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: talk about my divorce. Now, if you are a long 32 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: time listener of woke AF, you have known all about 33 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: my marriage, my ex wife, our advocacy work, all of 34 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: those things very well documented. But it was the first 35 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: time that I wanted to share, since it has been 36 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: a year since my divorce, the feelings of that moment 37 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: that I decided that I wanted, one that I needed, 38 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: one that I needed to find a way to in 39 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: fact say myself, my spirit and restore my light. And 40 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: so I wrote my piece and I took to the 41 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: stage earlier this week, and I have never been more 42 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: proud of myself. And I find that we don't say 43 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: those things enough, that we don't find moments and things 44 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: each day as to why we are proud of ourselves 45 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: and recognizing our growth and our desire to be better, 46 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: to stretch, to move in different ways, to expand what 47 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: it is who it is that we are. And this 48 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: week I challenge myself. I challenge myself as a writer 49 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: because I often only write about politics and the analysis 50 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: of that or our current affairs. I never really share 51 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: anything that is deeply personal right about my emotions around 52 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: things other than rage. And so this was an opportunity 53 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: not only to creatively write and stretch myself as a writer, 54 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: but a storyteller and as a person, as a person 55 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: that went through what more than half of the country 56 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: goes through each and every year, being as how fifty 57 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: percent of marriages end in divorce. And it doesn't matter 58 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: if you're queer or not. And so I offer this 59 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: to say that part of life is pain, right, is pain, 60 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: and is tragedy. And I have moved myself into the 61 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: belief that broken hearts are necessary because it allows us 62 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: to build them back stronger, and it creates space for 63 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: us to allow light to come in, and that we 64 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't run from that pain. We shouldn't run from tragedy. 65 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: We should instead lean into it, not allowing it to 66 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: consume us, right, but in allowing ourselves to feel it. 67 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: And that's what I did this week, and I hope 68 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: that we can challenge ourselves more to do that because 69 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: what it does is not only does it help us 70 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: with our emotional health and well being, but it allows 71 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: us to have empathy for others. Folks. I am so 72 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: excited to welcome to wikate F for the very first 73 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: time Dante Stewart, the author of the new book Shouting 74 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: in the Fire. It is a stirring meditation of being 75 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: black and learning to love in a loveless, anti black world. 76 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: The conversation that I had with Dante was so eye 77 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: opening because we went through his spiritual journey and unpacking 78 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: of a Christianity that would have him recognize that he 79 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: was anti black, that he was making excuses for white supremacy, 80 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 1: and that it was so nuanced in such a way 81 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: that he thought for so long until he was called 82 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: out by his friends and his family, that his attitude 83 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: about black people, about the lie of pulling yourself up 84 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: from the bootstraps, if only you would dress well and 85 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: respectability politics was part of the larger problem. And it 86 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: was an extraordinary conversation. And the book is in fact breathtaking, 87 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: as many will say. And Robert Jones Jr. Who we 88 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: also had on Woke a f who goes by son 89 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: of Baldwin and social media, said this about Dante's book. 90 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: Only once in a lifetime do we come across a 91 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: writer like Dante Stewart, so young and yet so masterful 92 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: with the pen. This work is a thing to make 93 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: dungeons shake and heart's thunder, And it really is. This 94 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: story Shouting in the Fire is Dante's reckoning and understanding 95 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: of the legacy of white supremacy and how his own 96 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: internalized anti blackness right seeped into all avenues of his life. 97 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: And our conversation is a reflection of this journey as 98 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: well as his book is. And I just think that man, 99 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: white supremacy is such a dangerous, dangerous drug. It is 100 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: a dangerous, dangerous virus like COVID that is so catching 101 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: that would have you hate the skin that you're in. 102 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: You know, the other day we had Daily Beast columnist 103 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: wajahat Ali on the show, and just recently he had 104 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,119 Speaker 1: tweeted his own journey in teaching his little brown daughter 105 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: how to love her skin, because a few months ago 106 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: she came to both him and his wife and said 107 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: that she didn't like her skin, that she wanted it 108 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: to be lighter, that she was too dark. He said, 109 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: how do you learn this at five and six years old? 110 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: How does the grip of white supremacy reach you at 111 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: that age? And I'll say it starts younger. And so 112 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: he worked with her and his wife and you know, 113 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: with more books about girls of color and you know, 114 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: bravery and courage and beauty and you know, and reminding 115 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: her and showing her how beautiful she really is, and 116 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: so unprovoked months later she came and said, I love 117 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: my skin right. And that is a similar journey that 118 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: Dante Stewart is on in shouting in the fire and 119 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: in remembering, you know what it meant to take over 120 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: an all white church as a preacher, and you know 121 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: how he had this reckoning when George Floyd was murdered, 122 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: and how the silence within his church was what finally 123 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: began to stir him and had him asked the question 124 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: about his feelings, his understandings of blackness, and so his 125 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: journey began. And I will tell you that I really 126 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: really enjoyed this conversation. I think that you all will too. 127 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: Please DM me and let me know you know what 128 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: you thought about this and whether or not you have 129 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: your own stories of internalized depression. If you are a 130 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: person of color, was it about your skin color? If 131 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: you you know, if you are from a marginalized community, 132 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: what types of internalized oppression were you experiencing. Coming up 133 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: next is my conversation with author Dante Stewart. Folks, I 134 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: am so happy to welcome onto Woke Apidaily author Dante Stewart, 135 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: who has a new book coming out entitled Shouting in 136 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: the Fire and American Eppstill, you refer to this as 137 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: a strong meditation of being black and learning to love 138 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: in a loveless anti black world. I can't tell you, Dante, 139 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: how much this book is needed in this moment um. 140 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: But before we get into the ills of the moment 141 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: that we are currently existing, and talk to me about 142 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: what made this How did this book birth itself? How 143 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: did you come to this place to to write Shouting 144 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: and shouting to the fire. Oh I can't hear him, 145 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: can you hear me? Yes? All right? Cool? Cool, cool. Well, 146 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: first of all, thank you so much for having me 147 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: on UM. You know, I think I think what really 148 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: birth this was you know, me trying to make sense 149 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 1: of so much, you know that I was experiencing as 150 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: a human being, as a person, um, but also what 151 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: I had experienced in the past, you know, whether it 152 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: be you know, traumatic events as a child, or going 153 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: through college or even post college, and writing for me 154 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: became a way, you know, to try and bring some 155 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: type of coherence and what I was experiencing, trying to 156 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: interpret those experiences and bring something life giving out of 157 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: those experiences while also being able to say that whatever 158 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: happened to me is not the only thing or the 159 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: most important thing about me. But there exists power within 160 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: my own type of storytelling to take back those stories 161 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: and rewrite it the way I want to write it. 162 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: You know, there's this quote, um, that Elizabeth Alexander has 163 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: and in one of my favorite books, The Black Interior, 164 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: and she says about writing. She says, you know, as 165 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: a writer, this was my story. These memories are mine, 166 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: and I let other people deal with it once I writing, 167 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: And so for me it was about, you know, trying 168 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: to write something that was honest and critical, reflective, imaginative 169 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: and creative, you know, while also being uniquely mine. So yeah, 170 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: that's probably that's probably kind of the way it was birth. 171 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: But then also it was birth out of reading too. 172 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: So I had read Key Essays book heavy, and I 173 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: read Jasmine Awards Men we read. And on top of that, 174 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, I was reading Um Jason's book, Jason Reynold's book, 175 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: and then Sarah Brown joined the Yellow House UM. And 176 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: so I'm reading all these books. I'm reading reading this 177 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: and reading Bill Hooks, and I'm reading Alice Walker and 178 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison, the Baldwin U and even James Cone and 179 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: Katie Cannon and the Emily Towns, just all these brilliant, 180 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: brilliant thinkers. And I felt inspired as a as a 181 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: person to take up that work as well, to be 182 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: a part of a noticeable tradition while also being uniquely 183 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: uniquely me and telling the story in the way that 184 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: it needed to be told. Talk to me about your 185 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: experience in the church and you know, being that you 186 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: wanted to be and were were a part of a 187 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: what was it a largely white Episcopal church, right, Baptist 188 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: A Baptist church, excuse me, a Baptist church. But that 189 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: the what happened during the time during the the uprisings 190 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: right of twenty twenty what what? What? What shifted in 191 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: in your experience? Talk to us, because there was a 192 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: shifting that occurred. I mean there was a shifting. Obviously, 193 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: there was a techtonic shift that occurred with with with 194 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: all of us. But what happened with you specifically and 195 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: your relationship with your church and the parishioners um during 196 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: that time, Well, that that journey really started, you know way, 197 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, in some sens years before then. And you know, 198 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: it really started in twenty sixteen with the shooting of 199 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: Alton Sterling and Philando cast Still. And then, of course, 200 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: like so many Christians in general, but particularly young black 201 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: Christians in particular, UM, the moment of Donald Trump following 202 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: those shootings, you know, and things has already happened since 203 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: treyvon Martin. Um, you had both white and black churches 204 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: wrestling with the question of what to do inside of 205 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: a society that, uh did not just was not just 206 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: apathetic to black life, but was hostile towards us. And 207 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: so we lived in a society that not only was hostile, 208 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: but oftentimes this hostility was justified by ideas of morality 209 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: or ideas of religious you know, purity. You know, whose 210 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: bodies were meant to be loved and whose bodies were 211 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: meant to be condemned? Uh and so and so this 212 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: is this kind of theological or religious justification is the 213 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: reason why so many people, even myself ashamedly blamed black 214 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: people for their death. So, like Mike Brown, I never forget. 215 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: And I was living in California. I was riding with 216 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: one of my dudes, a white brother over there in 217 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: his car, one of my dudes back then, um, riding 218 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: in his car and seeing what's happening in Ferguson. I 219 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: was the type of person that was like, you know, 220 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: you know, like what's wrong with black folks? You know 221 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: why we acting like? Oh, no, I was that guy. 222 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: I was that dude. Because I was about to say it, 223 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: I was like, wait, you are that guy? No, no, no, no, 224 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: I own that, you know, And Okay, And that's a 225 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: part that's a part of like why I felt like 226 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: I had to write it the way I did is 227 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: because like I'm not a hero of this story, Like 228 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm not the hero of this book. Like I'm just 229 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: the person who tells it. I'm the person who experienced it. 230 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: And I'm trying to, you know, make sense of it 231 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: as possible as much as I possibly can. And I 232 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: think that, you know, especially you're talking about what shifted, 233 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: and I think even in my own life, it was 234 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: like being honest about who I was, about who I 235 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: was not, and who I was trying to be. You know, 236 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: I was trying to be that person who was accepted 237 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: um into white social and religious spaces, uh and who 238 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: rejected and and and and distanced myself from so many 239 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: black people that either I was raised about or that 240 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: came into my life, you know, going to being at Clemson. 241 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: That's that's pretty much when all of it started, with 242 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: me being immersed in white, white Christian spaces and and 243 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: that kind of catalytic shift that you as you're talking 244 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: about the ground beneath me sinking and rumbling, happened in 245 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. And then you know, I read James Baldwin 246 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: and I and I and I like to tell people, 247 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, if you if if you're black and white spaces, 248 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: and you read balding and critically. If you read Evalveing 249 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: honestly and critically, there is no way possible to stay 250 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: in white spaces and be okay with so much of 251 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: what they think about black people and the way they 252 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: treat us and the way they respond to us. And 253 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: so during those moments of twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, you know, 254 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: I used this metaphor in the book of Running. I 255 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: stopped running and or at least I stopped running in 256 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: the direction of white people that I ran toward us 257 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: because I feel, as the black feminist theorist Terry On 258 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: Williams said that that our world, the way we black 259 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: people build worlds, is as much a starting point as 260 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: any other place. And I started to take seriously the 261 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: worlds that black people were creating through literature, through art, 262 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: through dance, through through our religious experiences. And I knew that, 263 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: you know, I could not, Yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't. 264 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: I couldn't shucking job for white people no more. You 265 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: know what, be honest, what I really respect um your 266 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: your your honesty, and the vulnerability with having to reconcile 267 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: with the person that you were and the person that 268 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: you are becoming right because I believe, you know, kind 269 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: of in the in the sense that we were always 270 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: in a state of becoming right, like we should always 271 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: be in a state of becoming the next iteration of ourselves. 272 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: I grew up in a largely white suburb here in 273 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: New York on Long Island, where I went to school 274 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: with ninety six percent white kids, right like, the school 275 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: district was ninety six percent white. Went to college a 276 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: predominantly white institution. It wasn't until I was in my 277 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: twenties did I start to reconcile with the things that 278 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: I had been fed and taught. It wasn't as if 279 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: I had a self hatred, but it was like this 280 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: just nonchalant acceptance of white people and whiteness. And so 281 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: I want to press upon with you. You know, when 282 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: you were having when these moments are happening in twenty 283 00:18:54,680 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: sixteen and twenty seventeen, you know, did you have like 284 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: community around black community around you or how or were 285 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: you doing this reconciliation essentially absent of community because the 286 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: community that you created was largely white. Yeah, well then 287 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: a great question, great question. You know, so so much 288 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: of what was happening to do that during that moment, 289 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: there were black people in that church. You know that 290 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: so many of these churches, you know, so many of 291 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: these spaces say we're trying to become diverse, we're trying 292 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: to be mortiracial, we're trying to be multicultural, when in actuality, 293 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: what that really means is that we're trying to do 294 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: the bare minimum while including black people or non white 295 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: people and get them maximum praise. So we're doing the 296 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: most minimal work trying to get the maximum praise. And 297 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: one of my one of my dudes said it said 298 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: it best, Yes, they said it best. He says, you know, 299 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: white people, you know, uh, he says something real fun 300 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: He said, you know, white people would rather you know, uh, 301 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: you lose and you lose and you get the blame 302 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: rather than you win and they get the credit. And 303 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: I thought, I thought, so, I thought that was a brilliant, 304 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: brilliant way to understand these dynamics that like it was 305 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: about us losing. It wasn't. No, it's like oh, you know, 306 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: like hey, like you know, hey, here's a book you 307 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: can read, here's a thing you can read, here's a 308 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: documentary you can read. And so then it's like, Okay, 309 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: we're all losing in this little space, and we're taking 310 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: the blame for it because it was black people in 311 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: that space. You know, I'm married, so my wife was there. 312 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: Then my best friend Mole and her husband was there. 313 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 1: But then there was also all the black people there. 314 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: And that's the dynamic, you know, that's the that's the 315 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: interesting dynamic within those white spaces. Not every type of 316 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: black personal blackness is accepted a lot of times. A 317 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, there's this there's this colloquialism, 318 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: especially you know, black people use it when we mostly 319 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: many black people use it when we are in white spaces. 320 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: It's that term black people are not a mono lift 321 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: and we use it as a way to signal that 322 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: I perform us of blackness in white space is legitimate. 323 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: We use it as a signal. It's not so much 324 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: as a celebration of the different iterations of blackness and 325 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: the expressions of our beauty or like Hanife Rights in 326 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: his book Lived Devi in America, these kind of iterations 327 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: of black performance. It's not a celebration of that, but 328 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: it's a signal U to try and legitimize our form 329 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: of blackness without realizing that the form of blackness that 330 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: we are actually having is all the same. We might 331 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: be black and might be different from one another, have 332 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: different experiences, but the certain type of blackness that's accepted 333 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: in those spaces, whether we're in church, it's the same. 334 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: Whether we're in church, whether we're in school, whether we 335 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: whether you're whether it's the same and so and so, Yes, 336 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: black community was there. But also, and this is the 337 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: thing we need to talk about, a lot of us 338 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: need to talk about, is the ways in which our 339 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: black maleness, uh tech and empower a certain type of 340 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: whiteness in that space. So we black men even though 341 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: I was I was leading a group, you know, and 342 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: things like that on this book raised by white dude, 343 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: I was leaving the group and I ain't even read 344 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: nothing on race. And this is like in twenty sixteen, 345 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, I'm leaving this book group. I ain't read nothing, 346 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: gonna raise this this white man leading this white man 347 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: book we're reading and things like that. And I'm this 348 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: black dude who's charismatic, raised Pentecostal, went to white university. 349 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: I know how to maneuver in spaces or whatnot. And 350 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: so then my type of me as a symbol becomes 351 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: very relevant to what white people want to protect. And 352 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: it's a certain type of innocence that they have, you know, 353 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: an evasion of racism, of white supremacy, while paradistically looking 354 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: like they celebrating us, when in actuality, they're celebrating a 355 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: certain type of ignorance, which is pretty much what we 356 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: black men were performing in that space. And then the 357 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: only only, the main reason why I change was my wife, 358 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: and the book was crazy. It's like I was honest 359 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: about this too. Like they're gonna be moments. They could 360 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: be moments where people read this book and they're gonna 361 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: be like they're gonna be like, oh my business, Like 362 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: like we're grateful for you, we're proud of you, but 363 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: like there are moments where like, you know, I took 364 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: my wife through things in that space that I never 365 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: should have. And if it had not been for my wife, 366 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: you know, and the other black women who were like 367 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: getting me together, if it wasn't for my wife and 368 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: for my friend Mole and for my friend and Kayla, 369 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: if it wasn't for them, you know, there would be 370 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: no this right now. There would be no change, I 371 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: would still be there preaching the same way, thinking the 372 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: same way, act the same way. But if it had 373 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: my moth for them, how did they? How did they? 374 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: What are some ways in which without you divulging to 375 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: and what are some ways that they challenged your your 376 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 1: your way of thinking that was challenging this this growth 377 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: that was happening. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Okay. So 378 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: one one thing in particularly that I bring that that 379 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: I that I show in the book, you know, particularly 380 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: with my wife. I talk about my wife and I 381 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: talk about michaela uh particularly so like you know, the 382 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: the further I got into white spaces because you know, 383 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: I said, you know, I want to go on ministry. 384 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: I want to go in ministry, you know, and things 385 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: like that. It's like black it's like black people who 386 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: you say, you know, we gotta make it, we gotta 387 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: make it, you know. And and the crazy part is 388 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: the way we grow up, you know, they tell us. 389 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: You know, that's the message, that's the story that we 390 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: inherit is that in order for you to make it, 391 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: you have to get closer to white people. In order 392 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: for you to be closer to God, you know, you 393 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: got to be closer to white people. In order for 394 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: you to be closer to Jesus, you gotta be closer 395 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: to white people. In order you got to be closer 396 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: to financial liberation and literacy, I gotta be closer to 397 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: white people. You gotta be like white people. And so 398 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: we inherit these messages that to be closer to them 399 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: is to be closer to the things that will make 400 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: us feel worthy and love. And so the further I 401 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: got into those spaces, you know, in ministry and writing 402 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: and friendship and community, et ceteras, etcetera, the more of 403 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: my wife is like sending me messages like through like 404 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: like like you know, like the unspoken message, you know 405 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: that that that that that so many times we received 406 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: like yo, you're out of line, Like you're out of line. 407 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: And I'll never forget when MICHAELA one of my co workers, 408 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: I was at work and we were talking about the election. 409 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: I was talking about reconciliation with white people and things 410 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: like that, and I'm like, white people changing, white people changing, 411 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: white people changing, you know, and then I started spelling 412 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: off the same kind of anti black rhetoric or whatnot. 413 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: And I and I undershamingly, you know, back then in 414 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: that moment, I was anti black, undershaming like I was 415 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: anti black. I I literally my ideology was anti black. 416 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: My view of black people was anti blackee. I learned 417 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: from that. And when you when you say that, when 418 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: you say that I was anti black, is it your 419 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: understanding that you believed that the situations that black people 420 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: would find themselves in, whether it be in poverty, whether 421 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: it be in poor health, whether it be an incarceration, 422 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: that that was a product of behavior as opposed to 423 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: systemic racism. Oh oh, without question. Yeah, I was that guy. 424 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: I was that person. I was that I know, I 425 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: know that's the craziest thing, like like, but that's the real, 426 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: that's the real though, that's the real, right I was. 427 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: I was that person. I literally was that person that 428 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: you know, and that was and literally that's what I 429 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: It was that night. It was that night when I 430 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: was talking to MICHAELA and I said something like to that, 431 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 1: to that effect, you know, and that like you know, 432 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: like white people changing and things like that, and we 433 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: won't get better until we do better. And then MICHAELA, 434 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: I'll never forget MICHAELA told me she looked me in 435 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: my eye. I'll never forget this night he said, STU, 436 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: you ain't got a damn thing to offer black people. 437 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: And I'm this dude in this white church, like reading, writing, preaching, leading, 438 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: and MICHAELA, you know, tells me you don't got a 439 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: damn off for black people. I go home. I'm pissed off. 440 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: I still. I started to go complain to my wife, 441 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: and she tell me, see, you're always listening to everybody 442 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: else when I've been telling you this whole time nothing 443 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: and that thing when I say yo, then yeoh, when 444 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: I say that was a dagger, like that was a dagger. 445 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: And I had two choices in that moment, to two 446 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: main choices. Either I can listen and get better and 447 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: from my way into some type of wholeness. Or I 448 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: could still be that person and remain the same and 449 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: be a weapon that used against us and that protects 450 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: white people. Come and for me and for me, you know, 451 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be a weapon anymore. I wanted 452 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: to be loved. I didn't. I didn't want to be 453 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 1: a weapon. You know. I think that it takes a lot. 454 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: And and this is this is where it says, you 455 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: know the problem that we're in right now in our 456 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: society is in this very fixed state where you have 457 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: one political party, aggressive rage filled white folks who are 458 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: so fixed in their sense of self that there is 459 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: no ability to growth, to grow and expand there's no nimbleness, 460 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: there's no m desire to learn. There is just this 461 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: belief that there is We come from the scarcity model 462 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: that there is just not enough and so we must 463 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: all hold on to everything that we have and there 464 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: is no there is no wholeness, right, And I think 465 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: that where this is where we are. We're in that 466 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: space where it's just like we have a choice, like 467 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: the two choices that you had in front of you. 468 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: Either we can recognize how white supremacy has played a 469 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: part in every single facet of our lives since the 470 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: birth quote unquote birth of this nation, or and then 471 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: reconcile with that truth, or we can just pretend that 472 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: all is okay. Equities, it exists, and we're making and 473 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: we're okay with incremental change every decade or so. Right, Like, 474 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: it's like that's the moment that you had personally, it's 475 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: a moment that I feel that we are in as 476 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: a country. No, without question, Yeah, without question, that's that's real. 477 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: That's real, and I think and I think that's the 478 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: challenge too, though, is that oftentimes we characterize these moments 479 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: still centering whiteness. So like so like Toronto Burke says 480 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: it best, and I thought this thing shook me when 481 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: I read it, Like when when in that book you 482 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: are your best thing when a shame of vulnerability with 483 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: Burnee Brown. It was a little obscure comment, but it 484 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: was a powerful comment. You know, she was like yo 485 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: in that opening conversation, She's like yo. Like in twenty twenty, 486 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: so many people was like, you know, they were talking 487 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: about anti racism, but nobody really was talking about black 488 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: humanity and what all this does to us? M like 489 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: like and that's the thing, It's like, and that's the 490 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: crazy part about Like, that's the crazy part about changes 491 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: that like we can change, but like does who does 492 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: our change benefit? That? That's the that's that's that's what 493 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: that's the question I needed to rustle with. That's the question. 494 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: You know, that that that that I was forced to 495 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: reckon with is Okay, there is a thing called change. 496 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: You know, I'll tell your butler, let's say, you know, 497 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: all everything is everything, yeah Godge, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 498 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's like, you know, everything is changing. We 499 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: change it, were constantly evolved, we're constantly moving, we're constantly shaking. 500 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: Things are happening, and we're changing. And once we make 501 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: that choice to change, the question then becomes and what 502 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: direction does that change move us? And who does that 503 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: change benefit? Because it's a way to change that's performative, 504 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: and we see this, We saw it in we saw 505 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty and right now, particularly when you're talking about 506 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: corporations and the way that they are exploiting, you know, 507 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: black people and our stories. It's like our country is 508 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: incredible at exploiting black stories, but terrible at loving black people. 509 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: It's like it's like this whole idea of you know, 510 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: it's like it's like this whole idea of you know, 511 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: we need to change, we need to move, we need 512 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: to make things happen, and things like that. But then 513 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: you look down six months, ten months, a year, or 514 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 1: two years down the road and you realize, like, dang, bro, 515 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: they ain't nothing asked for it. That's not what we 516 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: ask for. That's not the type of change we ask for. 517 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: And it's like, okay, everybody, like like people can can 518 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: quote like certain books on whiteness and its fagility without 519 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: me being too messy, you know or whatnot. But you know, 520 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: people ain't really reading us. They ain't They ain't talking 521 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: about the ways we build the world and make the 522 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: world and shake the world, and so like, you know, 523 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: that probably was the biggest thing about my change. And 524 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: I think about this country, that that what I want. 525 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: You know, so many people talk about, you know, what 526 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: do you want for the country, And they always asking 527 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: black people, you know, what do y'all want for the country? 528 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: What do you want for the country. You know, we 529 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: want to be human, we want to be protected. And 530 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm like, my answer, I just want to 531 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: be free, free, not free ish. I like to just 532 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: be free. Yeah, I want to be free. I want 533 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: to I want in some sense, like for us to 534 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: not have to be in performance or in pain or 535 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: dead in order for us to be celebrated and protected. 536 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: Like like like they should not have to We should 537 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: not have to be perfect. No, like like when Makaya 538 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: Bryant and everybody was like, you know, oh, well she 539 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: had this, oh we she had that. Well, she should 540 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: not have to be perfect in order for her to 541 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: stay alive. Correct, correct, and it's like, you know, I 542 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: think that black people are given obviously we know this 543 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: given very few choices in this country. Right, It's either 544 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: perfection or pain, right, Right, So either we want to 545 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: see crying black mothers on TV because we believe in 546 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: black trauma as our porn, or we want you to 547 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: perform undeterred and like a robot and once like and 548 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: I think I and I think about you know, Simone 549 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: Biles in this moment, right, we're her stepping back and 550 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: being like, I'm not performing for you, like this is like, 551 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: this is about my emotion about my mental health, right 552 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: and being able to and being able to own that 553 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: right and take and take your power back. Um, don't 554 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: take you know for this for this book? You know, 555 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: what are your what are your hopes that people walk 556 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: away with um it in you know, really digesting your word? 557 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: What what what are you hoping that people take away? Yeah? 558 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: I hope people first of all, you know, once they 559 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: read it and finish it, I first hope they say, like, God, 560 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: I leave that dude, right, Like that's it, you know, 561 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: you know, you know that's that's that's like because because 562 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: I want to get better as a writer, I feel like, 563 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, I'm good at what I do. I feel 564 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: like I'm decent at what I do. But like, I 565 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: really want people when they first walk away, when they 566 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: get to that last page, you know, I want them 567 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: to feel jas Award. I want them to feel down 568 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: there more. I wanted to feel Disa Field y'all and 569 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: Robert Jones and Kisa and Jason uh and Marries and 570 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: just all these and Sarah and and Tony Kade and 571 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: James Baldwin and Tony and and Tony Morrison and Alice Walker. 572 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: I want them to be able to say, like, yo, 573 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: like this is a this feels noticeable, this is a 574 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: noticeable type of work of literature or whatnot. So I 575 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: wanted the first and foremost say like yo, like hey, 576 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: that was an experienced like like like that was that 577 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: was really good. But also I want people to walk 578 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: away saying like, damn, that book was black, Like that 579 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: was such a black book, but like also that was 580 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:59,479 Speaker 1: such a beautifully meaningfully Christian book, like that's that's that's 581 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: who I am as well. I'm a black Christian. And 582 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: so I want people to like say, like I wash 583 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: true to who I was as a person, as a preacher, 584 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: as a lover, as a husband, as a father, like 585 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 1: I wanted to walk away and realize that, Yo, you 586 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: really loved us with this work, and you loved us 587 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: because you were so vulnerable, you were so honest, and 588 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: you took our black lives and our black worlds, and 589 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: you you took us seriously, and you, by the end 590 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: of the page, by the end of the book, you 591 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: did something like June Jordan at the end of that poem, 592 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: I am black, alive and looking back at you. So 593 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: that's why I want. That's my whole is that is 594 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: that they say, yo, like I feel more alive, I 595 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: feel beautifully black. I don't have to be perfect. I'm 596 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: not a hero. I'm worthy of love and liberation and 597 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: the best that anybody in this country. That's the awful 598 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: I love that. My last question for you is for 599 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: other black folks that may find themselves struggling between worlds 600 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: in the way that you found yourself and in the 601 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: way many of us right have found ourselves at one 602 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: point or another, vying for the acceptance but doing it 603 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: in a way that is detrimental to the self. What 604 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: advice do you offer to those people that may listen 605 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: to this and don't even they may not even recognize 606 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: that they're in the struggle, but they are. What advice 607 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: do you give them? The same question that I constantly 608 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, I have had to ask myself who benefits 609 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: from what I'm doing? Who benefits in the end, who centered? 610 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: Who is centered in what I do? And in some sense, 611 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: if what I did succeeded, who will be there to 612 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: celebrate with me? That's a question. If what I did, 613 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: whatever I'm doing, if it's succeeded, who will be there? 614 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: Like Lucille Clifton, won't you come celebrate with me? Who's 615 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: gonna be thold people around you to celebrate the type 616 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: of life you created and out of that life that 617 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: you created and the models, whether you had them or not, 618 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: based on like what she said, who benefits from that? 619 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: And who will celebrate with you? And that in some 620 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: sense would tell you what you are prioritizing and whose 621 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: world you're trying to make beautiful and better? And for me, 622 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: I hope that the people that are being able to 623 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: be celebrating with us are black people first and foremost, 624 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: Like unashamedly, I won't black vocal part of that community. 625 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: Who's celebrating. But I also know that as June Jordan 626 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: and all these beautiful writers, and Tony Morrison and James Baldwin, 627 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: I want a kaleidoscope of people who can who can 628 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: be celebrated, whether they're gay or straight, whether the sisters 629 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: or trans, whether they're immigrant or indigenous, whether they're rich 630 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: or poor, whether they're there they're rule or in the city, 631 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: whether they're young or whether they're old. I want a 632 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: kaleidoscope of people to be able to look around and 633 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: see themselves in our stories, in our stories, in our stories, 634 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 1: in the stories we tell ourselves and realize that, Yo, 635 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: whatever we are, it's enough, and it's enough to make 636 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: us better than the world that we inherited. So that's 637 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 1: probably mine. Yeah, that's all I got. I love it, 638 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: and I love this conversation so much. Dante Stewart, the 639 00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: book is shouting in the fire and American Eppsol. Dante Stewart, 640 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much for making the time to join 641 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: Woke F. I really appreciate you, and I wish you 642 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 1: tremendous success with your with your book, and I hope 643 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: that you will come back and join us again. Oh 644 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: you know that, Daniel come on, I'm coming through. I'm 645 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: in the building. I'm in the bud whenever you need me, 646 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: and I'll make sure show up all time. I love it, 647 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: I love it, I love it. I'm from the South. 648 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 1: I'm from the South. So we got a fifteen minute, 649 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: great period, that's true. That's true. That and you're black, 650 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: so like you know, I'll even give you twenty minute. 651 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: I appreciate you, thank you so so so much, um 652 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: and where I'm excited for you for show, for show, 653 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: Thank you, sister, bless you. That is it for me today, 654 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: dear friends, on this woke f I wish you a happy, healthy, 655 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: recharged weekend and I will see you back here on Monday. 656 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: As always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 657 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.