1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:00,760 Speaker 1: Dear listener. 2 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 2: Today's episode is the continuation of a story we started 3 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 2: telling last week. If you haven't listened to it, we 4 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 2: really recommend that you go to our feed and look 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: for Unsafe in Foster Care Part one and listen to it. 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 2: This episode might be hard to listen to for some 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 2: of you. It includes details about the death of two children. 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 3: Nobody really knows what it's like to be in the system, 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 3: and everybody have different judgments of people who end up 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 3: in the system. People think, oh, you have rights, Well 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 3: do you really? Do you really have rights? 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: From futro media, it's like you know, USA, I'm Maria 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 2: nor Josa today part two of our story Unsafe in 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: Foster Care. This week we can tell you with our 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: investigation into the child welfare system in Los Angeles County, 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: which is the biggest child protection service in the United States. 17 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: We met Leah Garcia, a mother who called the police 18 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: after her partner turned violent. Leah was looking for safety 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: for herself and for her two children. Her calls to 20 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: the police triggered the involvement of LA's Department of Children 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: and Family Services, known as DCFS. Social workers concluded that 22 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 2: Leah wasn't able to protect her children, and so her 23 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: three year old daughter was placed with her birth father, 24 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: but her five month old baby, Joseph, the son she 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: had with her abusive partner, was placed with a foster 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: care family. Leah struggled to see her baby boy weekly 27 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: because he was placed in a foster home nearly two 28 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: hours away from her. She worried about Joseph's well being, 29 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: and then one day she got a call from the 30 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: police her son Joseph had died. Allegedly, the baby had 31 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: accidentally been choked by the car seatbelt. Reporter Deepa Fernandez 32 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: has been investigating Joseph's death for over a year. In 33 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: her research, a lot of questions came up about how 34 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: Joseph had been cared for by the foster care system 35 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: and questions about his death. Then, in Joseph's autopsy report, 36 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: Deepa found a disturbing fact another baby had died in 37 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: the same foster home just two months before Joseph. Deepa 38 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: Fernandez picks up the story from here. 39 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 4: After reading Joseph Chuckoln's autopsy report, I had questions about 40 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 4: how he died. According to Joseph's foster mother, she took 41 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 4: nineteen month old Joseph to target at around eight ten 42 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 4: on the evening of January twenty fourth, twenty twenty, she 43 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 4: reported hearing him making noises in the back seat, so 44 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 4: she turned around and drove home. A whole hour later, 45 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 4: at nine h nine pm, she called nine one one. 46 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 4: Some details didn't make sense and even seemed to contradict 47 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 4: each other. So I went by to visit someone I'd 48 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 4: reported it on some years ago when she was the 49 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 4: chief and only child death investigator for La County, Denise Breton, 50 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 4: back in twenty thirteen. She gave me a tour. 51 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: This is where the autopsies are done. It's a large room, 52 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: and you can see everybody's washing up now and cleaning 53 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: the instruments for tomorrow. 54 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 4: Now I'm meeting Denise Breton at her home. She no 55 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 4: longer works investigating child deaths for the county. Denise, Hello, Hello, 56 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 4: how are you. I've asked for her expert opinion on 57 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 4: what happened to Joseph chuck On, and she wants me 58 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 4: to understand clearly that. 59 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: I don't work at the coroner's office anymore, so I 60 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: don't have the backstory. I don't have access to the 61 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: case notes. I only have the autopsy of report, which 62 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: is public record. 63 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 4: I've also shown Britone the emergency medical technician report that 64 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 4: I was able to get from when the paramedics showed 65 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 4: up to the Foster home at nine eighteen pm. She 66 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 4: studied them both. Britone notes ligature marks on the right 67 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 4: side of the neck from the seat belt, but wonders 68 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 4: if this could have caused him to choke to death. 69 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 4: The buckle clasp, if it slid tightly up against his neck, 70 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 4: might have caused breathing challenges, but that would have left 71 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 4: a different kind of mark. Britone notes there were no 72 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 4: seatbelt buckle marks found on Joseph. Briton also has other 73 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 4: questions about the foster mother's account to the police of 74 00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 4: how Joseph died. 75 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: She states that he is in a rear facing car seat, 76 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: but he's nineteen months old. My question is he's in 77 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: a rear facing car seat, he's nineteen months old, his 78 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: legs are going to be compressed against the back of 79 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: the seat. 80 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 4: This is important to note because he was in an 81 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 4: infant capsule type car seat, so he would not have 82 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 4: had room to really slip down, as his legs would 83 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 4: have been pressing into the back of the seat. 84 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: So my question would be the caretaker says she's driving 85 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: and she hears there's a report of gurgling or gasping. 86 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: She in the interview with the coroner investigator who does 87 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: a very thorough job and talking to her. He did 88 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: a really nice report. Now, what would be typical for 89 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: a prudent caregiver. I'd hear gasping or gurgling, and you'd 90 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: pull the car over and be sure he's okay. And 91 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: this caregiver does not pull the car over, she does 92 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: not check on him, and she drives home, and there's 93 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: a time lapse, a considerable time lapse. 94 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 4: The time lapse is important because one thing investigators try 95 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 4: to figure out is when the child might have died. 96 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 4: So remember she calls nine one one at nine h 97 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 4: nine pm and at nine eighteen pm paramedics arrive. 98 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: What we do notice is that the paramedics reported that 99 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: his jaw was stiff. Rigor mortis is a stiffening of 100 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: the muscles that happens after death. There's never been any 101 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: study in children, nothing that's reliable that says when rigor 102 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: mortis starts as a child. But we do know that 103 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: this was not a fresh death. This is not a 104 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,679 Speaker 1: death that had occurred within ten or fifteen minutes. 105 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 4: The autopsy notes that the child was last seen well 106 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 4: at eight thirty pm. When the paramedics get there in 107 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 4: the minutes after the nine to one one call was made, 108 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 4: they report Joseph to be quote cool and dry. Paramedics 109 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 4: note the ligature marks on Joseph's neck. 110 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: But I do know from doing over twenty five hundred 111 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: deaths in the county and there was a good portion 112 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: of those, as well as being an emergency room nurse 113 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: that if she heard that child gasping, drove home, paramedics 114 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: are immediately called. That when that child gets to the 115 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: emergency room, he will be floppy, he will be relaxed, 116 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: he will be limp. He's he's pulseless. And this child, 117 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: according to the paramedic, his jaw was stiff and when 118 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: the emergency room physician attempts to put the breathing tube 119 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: in the neck and the jaw are both stiff. This 120 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: is supposed to have happened within thirty minutes to sixty minutes, 121 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: and I would question that Timeline. 122 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 4: Denise Brettone had more questions too. 123 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: According when the caregiver is interviewed by the coroner investigator. 124 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: There's a report that at five point forty in the evening, 125 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: the child ate soup and then at seven point thirty 126 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: he ate crackers. Now there should be soup and crackers 127 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: at that hour, there should still be something left in 128 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: his stomach. But when doctor Young does the autopsy report, 129 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: he notes that the stomach is empty. Now liquid's empty 130 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: that quickly. And I don't know if the soup, you know, 131 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: we don't know what kind of soup it was, but 132 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: he did he crackers at seven point thirty, and then 133 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: he's essentially a cardiac arrest by nine thirty and his 134 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: stomach is completely empty. So there could also be more 135 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: questions asked about that. 136 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 4: Yet, despite all these questions, Joseph's mom, Lee Garcia called 137 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 4: me to tell me she finally heard the conclusion from 138 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 4: the detective. 139 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 5: Hi, Guba, it's media. 140 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 6: I head back from the detective and he told. 141 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 5: Me that. 142 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 7: Joseph's case. 143 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 6: With the doctor who's working on this case is saying 144 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 6: it's those like an accident and it has to do 145 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 6: with the car seat, which doesn't make much sense to me, 146 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 6: but that's what he said. That they're saying that it's 147 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 6: an accident from Lacar's. 148 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 4: Joseph's death was ruled an accident and the case was closed. 149 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 4: I made multiple calls to the detective on the case, 150 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 4: but he never called me back. Yet key questions remained unanswered. 151 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 4: Was Joseph strapped incorrectly in the car seat? If he 152 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 4: was the person who strapped him in wrong might be negligent. 153 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 4: And if he was strapped in correctly, but the car 154 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 4: seat was faulty and the straps choked Joseph, that car 155 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 4: seat would be a danger to all children and it 156 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 4: would have been recalled. It hasn't been. 157 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: I am aware that this case was closed as an accident. 158 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: I'm not comfortable with that, And the reason I'm not 159 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: comfortable with that is because an accident is exactly that, 160 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: an accident. But this is she's aware this child is 161 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: in distress and fails to help him, and the body 162 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: shows there was delay and seeking medical care for him, 163 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: and to me, that is egregious neglect. 164 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 4: The delay in seeking treatment maybe squarely the fault of 165 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 4: the foster mother, but was the system neglectful as well? 166 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 4: That was what I wanted to know. And here's the 167 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 4: other thing we learned from reading the autopsy and requesting 168 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 4: nine one one calls made from the foster home. It 169 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 4: turns out Joseph was not the first baby the foster 170 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 4: mother called nine one one about just two months before 171 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 4: Joseph died. This happened night one one. 172 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 8: What is your emergency? Hi, Yes, this is calling me 173 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 8: in because I have a three or three months old 174 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 8: baby boy. 175 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 5: She is a foster baby. 176 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 8: He's not breathing. 177 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 4: This was November sixteenth, twenty nineteen, just two months before 178 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 4: Joseph died. In this foster home. Here was another baby 179 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 4: not breathing. The foster mother was caring for multiple children 180 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 4: at the time. We don't know how many because DCFS 181 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 4: cannot disclose this information to us. The only information we 182 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 4: had on this baby was what the foster mother told 183 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 4: the emergency dispatcher. 184 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: And how old is she's going to be three months 185 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth, and how really was he born? 186 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 4: I believe thirty five or thirty six weeks. 187 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 8: She was drug exposed and I don't know what else 188 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 8: he was exposed to. 189 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 4: The baby died. We requested the autopsy for three month 190 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 4: old Draco Ford. I wanted to learn about him and 191 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 4: I wanted to find his mother, which I eventually did. 192 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 4: Delisia Taylor is twenty four. She lives in Lancaster and 193 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 4: is tall and thin. She has a deep sadness in 194 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 4: her face. Tattooed real small on the side of her 195 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 4: eye are the letters of Draco's name dropping down like teardrops. 196 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 9: Jacob was three months old when he passed. He was 197 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 9: boring August twenty first, twenty nineteen, and he died three 198 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 9: months later November seventeenth or eighteen. Because I wasn't there. 199 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 9: We had him for a month and he was a 200 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 9: happy baby. 201 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 4: I met this grieving mother right outside the Lancaster courthouse 202 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 4: where her children were formally removed from her. 203 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 9: He was a prettymature a baby, so I'm pretty sure 204 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 9: he had found a premi ht so he needed extra care. 205 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 9: We gave him that care, me and the dad. 206 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 4: Delasia's attorney advised her not to speak specifically about the 207 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 4: details of why her children were removed in the first place, 208 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 4: because she still has an open case with DCFS for 209 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 4: her older child. According to public records, her children were 210 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 4: removed due to a domestic violence incident and exposure to drugs. 211 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 4: The home where the family lived with other people did 212 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 4: you ever get any offers or any help given to 213 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 4: you by the social workers before they removed your children? 214 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 9: No, they didn't give me any services. They just told 215 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 9: me to figure things out and get it down basically. 216 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 9: So that's just what I was trying to do. 217 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 4: And did you know what that meant? Did you know 218 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 4: what to do? 219 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 9: I mean, like not really, but I felt like I 220 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 9: just had to figure it out. So I just tried 221 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 9: to figure it out. 222 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 4: When her children were taken, her attorney asked that they 223 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 4: be placed with Delasia's mother, the children's grandmother. The judge 224 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 4: hearing the case denied the request. When Delasia was allowed 225 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 4: to visit with Draco, it happened under DCFS supervision and 226 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 4: she could only see him three times a week for 227 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 4: three hours each time. And how did you find out 228 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 4: that he had passed away? 229 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 9: My mom called me and told me that the hospital 230 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 9: called her. Oh, the police came to her house with 231 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 9: a picture of the baby to identify. So she caught 232 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 9: me and told me. 233 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 4: It's still very hard for her to process what happened. 234 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 4: Do you feel like you got answers from anyone as 235 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 4: to what happened? Like, what was the story you were told? 236 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 9: At first I didn't really didn't answer, and then later 237 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 9: I was told that he died of SIDS. 238 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 4: SIDS or sudden infant death syndrome. It's sometimes also known 239 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 4: as Seward's sudden unexplained infant death. 240 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 9: My mom asked one of the workers, and one of 241 00:15:54,600 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 9: the workers had told her that he was asleep in 242 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 9: his bed and that she came back like a few 243 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 9: hours later and he was deceased or like unconscious one whatever, 244 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 9: But he was rushed at the hospital. 245 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 4: Eighteen months later. This was all she knew, and she's 246 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 4: deeply sad. 247 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: Coming up on Latino US say we look into what 248 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: dcfs did or didn't do after two children died in 249 00:16:32,160 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: the same foster home. Stay with us, Yes, hey, we're back. 250 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 2: Before the break, we heard the analysis of former child 251 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: death investigator Denise Bertone on the death of Joseph Chacoon. 252 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: Now she looks at what happened to Draco Ford, the 253 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 2: other baby who died in the same foster home two 254 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: months before Joseph. Reporter Dipa Fernandez picks the story up 255 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: from here. 256 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: Former child death investigator Denise Bertone also reviewed Draco Ford's autopsy. 257 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 4: According to the autopsy, he died of sudden unexplained infant 258 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 4: death syndrome. 259 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: Now, the problem with using either of those terms is 260 00:17:54,080 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: that the lay person, the detective's DCFS workers, even when 261 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: someone says justice SIDS, they think SIDS or sewards is 262 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: some medical disease that hasn't been discovered. It hasn't been 263 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: sorted out. But there's no difference in saying sudden unexplained 264 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: infant death. There is no difference between that and undetermined 265 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: after autopsy and toxicology studies. But if you say it's 266 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: sudden unexplained infant death, people think of it as being benign. 267 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: But if I say undetermined after autopsy and toxicology, then 268 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: there's a question. 269 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 4: Mark that here's the biggest question mark betone has after 270 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 4: studying the autopsy of baby Draco Ford. 271 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: What I really find appalling though, is in that case, 272 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: let me look at my documentation because I want to 273 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: make sure it's accurate. The autopsy for the Ford baby 274 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: is done on November nineteenth, twenty nineteen, but the final 275 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: cause of death is not determined until March fifteenth, twenty 276 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: twenty one. So this case stayed open for sixteen months. 277 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: So we have a child that died in November and 278 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: Children's Services is waiting to see if this is a 279 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: safe home and waiting to see if this is accurate. 280 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: And you can see right here on the doctor it's 281 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: called the Form fifteen that the date of the autopsy 282 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: is the November nineteenth, twenty nineteen, and the final is 283 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: three fifteen, twenty twenty one. How are we expecting law 284 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: enforcement and Children's Services and the state because this is 285 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: a daycare home. There's Communit Licensing, which is a state 286 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: agency also involved. How are they expected to find out 287 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 1: if this is a safe home when it's sixteen months 288 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: for the Department of Medical Examiner Coroner to come out 289 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: with a cause of death for the first baby. That 290 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: is I don't have words for how disgusted I am. 291 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 4: At that, despite having no official cause of death for Draco, 292 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 4: the first baby who died in the Palm Dell Foster 293 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 4: home until the spring of twenty twenty one, DCFS did 294 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 4: not immediately remove other children from the home after the 295 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 4: three month old baby died. Now, DCFS would not answer 296 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 4: questions about any specific case they're bound by privacy laws, 297 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 4: but they did tell me that the following department procedure 298 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 4: is followed quote. If there is no suspicion of abuse 299 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 4: or neglect by the caregiver or someone in the placement, 300 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 4: d DFAs takes no further action end quote. There is 301 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 4: a process the social workers follow to determine if the 302 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 4: death was accidental, including consulting with law enforcement. In Draco's case, 303 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 4: it appears the social workers believed the cause of death 304 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 4: to be Sid's and took no further action. Denise Britone 305 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 4: questions whether Acid's death determination can happen that quickly, especially 306 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 4: by non trained experts. She sees two distinct possibilities that 307 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 4: first need to be investigated. One is an unintentional death 308 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 4: due to an unsafe sleep environment. So if the crib 309 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 4: had soft toys or pillows and a baby rolls over 310 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 4: and his face buries in the pillow, and then he 311 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 4: cannot lift his head or turn back over, he suffocates. 312 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 4: The other is intentional suffocation. Investigating how a child died 313 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 4: is complex, Buttone says. 314 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: Because children do not have injuries like adults, they don't 315 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: fight back, they don't have entries, medical conditions can be masked. 316 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 4: The safest route would have been to take the other 317 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 4: foster children out of the home. The day Draco Ford 318 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 4: died until these questions could be answered by the medical examiner. 319 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: Yet they were not removed that day. In November twenty nineteen, 320 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 4: and two months later, Joseph Chakhon died under the care 321 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 4: of the same foster family. Just how many children die 322 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 4: in foster care is incredibly hard to know exactly. There 323 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 4: are privacy laws which DCFS cited when answering my numerous 324 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 4: record requests. There were also different criteria used to report 325 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 4: the deaths, which leads to different numbers. For example, in 326 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, I was told there were twenty three out 327 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 4: of home fatalities. DCFF says out of home care is 328 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 4: when a child lives with a relative, in a foster 329 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 4: home or in a group home, But the department separately 330 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 4: reported only thirteen out of home deaths between twenty fifteen 331 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 4: and twenty twenty. Why the discrepancy. In an email, DCFS said, 332 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 4: quote the twenty three fatalities and the thirteen fatalities contained 333 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 4: data extracted at different times and using different criteria end quote. 334 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 4: But what is documented on DCFS's website is stark. From 335 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 4: twenty fifteen to twenty nineteen, there were ninety four child 336 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 4: deaths at the hands of parents or caregivers. Three out 337 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 4: of four of those children were black and Latino. Black 338 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 4: children make up forty four percent of all the children dying. 339 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 4: When I sat down with the director of DCFS, Bobby Cagel, 340 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 4: I asked him about this deep disparity. 341 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 10: It is very concerning. I think it's partly a result 342 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 10: of the fact that we have so many children in 343 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 10: our system, so they're statistically more likely to show up 344 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 10: in and statistic like child fatalities. But certainly it is 345 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 10: very concerning that the majority of these kids that are 346 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 10: involved in fatalities are black and Hispanic. If we're not 347 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 10: getting the kind of services to families, to the children 348 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 10: in order to avoid those kind of outcomes, that's the 349 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 10: ultimate racism, and that's something that we've got to address. 350 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 10: We have to really get more preventative services out there 351 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 10: to keep kids from coming into our care at all, 352 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 10: and hopefully to keep parents from having to go down 353 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 10: the path of some of the really destructive behaviors that 354 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 10: adults can get into. 355 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 4: DCFS does not provide preventative services to avoid families entering 356 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 4: the system. Its mandate is to protect children who are 357 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 4: at risk of or are being abused or neglected, and 358 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 4: it's a social worker who often has to determine this. 359 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 4: While I wasn't granted permission to talk to the social 360 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 4: work wor is involved in Joseph chuckhon Or Draco Ford's 361 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 4: cases to ask them why they thought it was necessary 362 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 4: to remove these babies from their mothers or ask them 363 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 4: about these babies' deaths, I was able to talk with 364 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 4: Mary Nichols. 365 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 8: I am retired. I'm a former child services administrator at 366 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 8: the Department of Children and Family Services in Los Angeles 367 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 8: County and I was working with DCFS as it's known 368 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 8: for twenty eight years before I returned. 369 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 4: Mary Nichols knows the system well. 370 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 8: Social workers get a really bad rap that they somehow 371 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 8: on their ownly one little person going out and making 372 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 8: a decision, and it's not the case. 373 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 5: It's a systemic decision. 374 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 4: She points out that one social worker alone cannot decide 375 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 4: to remove a child. They have to report to a 376 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 4: supervisor who will help make the decision. Law enforcement will 377 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 4: weigh in, and ultimately a judge is the one who 378 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 4: orders the child to be placed in foster care. That's 379 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 4: the systemic decision. It's too easy to just blame one 380 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 4: by a social worker, she says, for removing a child 381 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 4: who more often will be black or Latino. 382 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 8: Socials are at a disadvantage. It's because we are damned 383 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 8: if we do and damned if we don't. If we 384 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 8: take a child from a parent who may have been 385 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 8: a victim of domestic bonds, maybe because we know some 386 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 8: other pieces, maybe because the batter is so dangerous that 387 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 8: the children aren't risks, even if the mother is appropriate 388 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 8: but can't protect because of his dangerousness. If we take 389 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 8: the child and the child dies, we are damned. If 390 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 8: we leave the child and try to protect her and 391 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 8: the batter breaks through and kills the child, we're damp. 392 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 8: We can't predict people's behavior. And yet society media think, well, 393 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 8: why did you do that? And can't you see how 394 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 8: bad it was for that child? Well, all child abuse 395 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 8: is bad. All decisions whether to keep a child in 396 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 8: home or remove them from the home are traumatic. There 397 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 8: is no. 398 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 5: Simple way here, and that's. 399 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 8: Something that I don't think the media sometimes portrays enough, 400 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 8: is that you cannot always make the proper decision. 401 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 4: Part of the difficulty in figuring out how potentially dangerous 402 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 4: a domestic violence situation might be is that the parent 403 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,959 Speaker 4: who has experienced the battering is also afraid of the 404 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 4: social worker. 405 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 8: If you go and talk to the mother, they're so 406 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 8: afraid of you taking their kids that they will align 407 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 8: with and minimize one second. They will align and minimize 408 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 8: because they're terrified of retaliation, and they will align with 409 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 8: the batter and minimize because it's most dangerous for them 410 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 8: at the time. And so what happens is it's very 411 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 8: difficult for its social workers to be able to assess 412 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 8: in a clear way who's the primary aggressor. Time, as 413 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 8: we know, the batterer is justifying his behavior and blaming 414 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 8: and taking. So that type of child aboose evaluation and 415 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 8: assessment is extremely difficult. 416 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 4: And there's another issue that makes a social worker's job 417 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 4: extremely difficult. 418 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 10: This job cannot be done with large caseloads. 419 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 4: This is Bobby Cagel again, the head of DCFS. 420 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 10: During the Gabriel Fernandez case. I've heard reports of people 421 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 10: having sixty to eighty cases on their caseload. I can 422 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 10: tell you right now that is impossible. I was a 423 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 10: decent social worker. Twenty five cases stretched me to the max, 424 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 10: to the extent that I would go home at night 425 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 10: and couldn't sleep because I was worried about whether I 426 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 10: was going to be able to get back to see 427 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 10: the other children that I had concerns for. And that 428 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 10: kind of thing, in the long run, really wears you out. 429 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 10: It causes you to burn out in the job and 430 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 10: therefore leave the profession oftentimes, and that's not a good 431 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 10: thing either. 432 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: Cagel says. Since twenty thirteen, after the death of Gabriel Fernandez, 433 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 4: the department has doubled the number of social workers hired 434 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 4: from about two thousand back then two four thousand now. 435 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 4: But more social workers have not lessened the numbers of 436 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 4: black and Latino children who are removed in LA and 437 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 4: there are many children of color dying in foster care. 438 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 4: DCFS Director Bobby Cagel acknowledges all of this. He says 439 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 4: he wants things to change. When I asked him if 440 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: parents are treated more harshly, scrutinized more by the system 441 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 4: than foster parents, he disagreed. 442 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 10: The foster parents go through a more rigorous check than 443 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 10: most anybody else in our system. There are a number 444 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 10: of safeguards that are built in through federal and state 445 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 10: law as well as our policy, it takes about ninety 446 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 10: days of study in order to be able to approve 447 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 10: a home, and it takes longer in some case. You know, 448 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 10: we do everything from fingerprinting the resource parents to look 449 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 10: for prior criminal history. 450 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 4: A resource parent is what the system calls a foster parent, 451 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 4: and Cagel is clear that not everyone is cut out 452 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 4: to be a foster parent. 453 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 10: We do not accept everyone who applies, certainly, and I 454 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 10: think this is on point to something that the general 455 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 10: public doesn't understand. Sometimes removing a child from the home 456 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 10: and placing them somewhere else is not a fail safe. 457 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 10: There are children that are harmed in foster care. It 458 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 10: is a very small number, but that is also a 459 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 10: concern for me as the director of our large system. 460 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 10: First of all, we know that bringing children out a 461 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 10: home is damaging to them psychologically. We also know that 462 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 10: potentially we could be placing them with someone who could 463 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 10: also place them in danger, even with the best efforts 464 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 10: that we have. 465 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 4: So what about the racism in the system, the disproportionately 466 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 4: high number of black and Latino children being taken from 467 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 4: their parents. 468 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 10: This is deeply ingrained. This is not something that's on 469 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 10: the surface. We've had very diligent efforts, but we have 470 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 10: never had resources in the department that are fully devoted 471 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 10: to the issue. The other thing that I have not 472 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 10: been able to find historically is where we set specific 473 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 10: goals around cutting the number of African American and Latino 474 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 10: children coming into our system. So we are going to 475 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 10: be putting out specific goals that we will measure and 476 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 10: make public so that the public can hold us accountable 477 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 10: on this. 478 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 4: Bobby Cagele has worked in child welfare for decades across 479 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 4: multiple states, and the problem of much higher rates of 480 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 4: black and Latino and Native children being removed is not 481 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 4: unique to Los Angeles. It happens in many child welfare 482 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 4: systems across the country. This might be a good place 483 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 4: to point out just how much the US spends on 484 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 4: child welfare each year. It's about nine point eight billion dollars. 485 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 5: Now. 486 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 11: There are fifty child welfare agencies in the country, and 487 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 11: the funds to underwrite them are in the billions. It's 488 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 11: not a one among them that's reputed to be working well. 489 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 4: This is Molly Tierney. She ran the Baltimore Child Welfare 490 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 4: agency for almost a decade. Here she's on a ted 491 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 4: X stage in twenty fourteen, where she gave a talk 492 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 4: based on her experience. She tried very hard to reform 493 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 4: the system from the inside, and by many measures, she 494 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 4: succeeded as she managed to greatly reduce the number of 495 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 4: children who came into the system. But tyranny also began 496 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 4: to see the problems as endemic to the very system 497 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 4: she was trying to reform. 498 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 11: Think about it, The only time the federal government pays 499 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 11: me is when I take somebody's kid. And as soon 500 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 11: as that kid's in foster care, they instantly become a commodity. 501 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 11: And the industry starts to wrap around doctors, lawyers, judges, 502 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 11: social workers, advocates, whole organizations. The industry is committed to 503 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 11: this intervention, this taking other people's children, because that's what 504 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 11: it needs to survive, and it's on autopilot now. Isn't 505 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 11: going to do whatever it has to do to stay 506 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 11: alive in this industry, to stay alive needs other people's children. 507 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 4: After years of doing this work, Tierney saw that the 508 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 4: act of removing children was an intervention that happened way 509 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 4: too late. She said, the solution should stop much earlier. 510 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 11: We could align ourselves with existing activities farther up river 511 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 11: that are disciplined about an ounce of prevention, we could 512 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 11: find the earliest moment to intervene with the family, long 513 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 11: before they need a catastrophic intervention like putting their kid 514 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 11: in foster care. So little kids not going to school 515 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 11: are a great example. When a sixteen year old's not 516 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 11: going to school, they're making a choice. When a four 517 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 11: year old's not going to school, they're telling you by 518 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 11: not showing up. But something's not quite right at home. 519 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 5: And when we. 520 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 11: Send someone to tap on those doors, to talk to 521 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 11: parents about the importance of going to school every day 522 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 11: and to listen about what's actually happening in that house, Lord, 523 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 11: we learned fascinating things. Untreated asthma so fixable, unstable housing, 524 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 11: harder toffects. But it doesn't mean your kid can't go 525 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 11: to school. 526 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 4: What Tyranny proposed back in twenty fourteen was essentially to 527 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 4: take the billions of dollars invested in the foster care industry, 528 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 4: as she calls it, and use it way earlier to 529 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 4: build a better social safety net to support families so 530 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 4: they don't falter. It's an idea that's gaining popularity among 531 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 4: mothers activists who are calling for an end to foster care, 532 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 4: women like Joyce McMillan. 533 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 5: Hi. My name is Joyce McMillan, and I would describe 534 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 5: myself as a parent who's been mistreated by an abusive 535 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 5: system that people hail as a system that protects children 536 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 5: while doing the exact opposite of that. 537 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 4: Joyce McMillan lives in New York City. 538 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 7: The system mistreated me because they came in looking for 539 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 7: reasons to separate my family and not reasons to support us. 540 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 4: Her life was irrevocably changed one day when Child Protective 541 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 4: Services knocked on her. 542 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 7: Door, And so when they knocked on my door, I cooperated, 543 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 7: thinking they would see me for who I was, for 544 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 7: the parent that I was to my children, and it 545 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 7: was just all a misunderstanding. But once they asked me 546 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 7: to give them a urine sample, nothing else in my 547 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 7: life mattered, and so my children were immediately removed and 548 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 7: I remained separated from my daughters for two and a 549 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 7: half years. 550 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 4: McMillan, who had on occasion used drugs recreationally, was deemed 551 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 4: to be an unfit parent to her daughters. With them gone, 552 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 4: her life spiraled into a deep hole. She says, and 553 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 4: her stable, middle class life finished the fight to get 554 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 4: her daughter's back broke her. 555 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 7: We are trapped in Shane the same way prisoners are 556 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 7: trapped in a cage. It is a cage. Walking, living 557 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 7: and breathing with extreme shame is a cage. It prevents 558 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 7: you from functioning properly. 559 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 4: When McMillan finally got her daughter's back, it took them 560 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 4: years to rebuild as a family. They were traumatized. They 561 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 4: all experienced their own PTSD like symptoms. But here's where 562 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 4: Joyce McMillan's story takes a different turn. While trying to 563 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 4: reconstitute her family, she began wondering if this was happening 564 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 4: to others too. 565 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 7: And I realized that year two children have been removed 566 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 7: from downtown in Battery Park, while it was about one 567 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 7: thousand and six hundred in Hallm, and that was in 568 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 7: one area of Hallem. 569 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 4: Battery Park is a wealthy white area, is lower income 570 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 4: Black and Latino. You're looking at statistics, you know that 571 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 4: make this comparison between Battery Park and Harlem. 572 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 5: How did you understand that? I understood it to be racist. 573 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 4: McMillan was outraged. She wanted to do something. Taking inspiration 574 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 4: from the demands of the Black Lives Matter movement to 575 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 4: abolish the police, activists like McMillan are demanding an end 576 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 4: to child protective services and a complete rethinking of child welfare. 577 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 7: What would it look like if we instead supported the 578 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 7: family who we said was not rising to a level 579 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 7: that we wish they would rise to and caring for 580 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 7: their child, if they didn't lack a coat, because instead 581 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 7: of giving money to a foster parent, you bought a 582 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 7: damn coat, Well, you bought a pack of groceries. Even 583 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 7: if you had to do that consistently for a moment, 584 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 7: it makes no sense to me that we would spend 585 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 7: our resources to separate. Separation is not support, surveillance is 586 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 7: not supported, and poverty is not neglect. 587 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 5: But these are the things that they easily get twisted. 588 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 4: Delisia Taylor, Draco Ford's mother, wants answers and justice. She 589 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 4: still has one child in the foster care system, but 590 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 4: after Draco passed, social workers finally placed her remaining child 591 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 4: with her own mother. The child's grandmother, a requests that 592 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 4: had been made and denied at the very first court 593 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 4: hearing when her children were removed. 594 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 9: Literally probably not they're more horrible than that feeling. Yeah, 595 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 9: small and tiny baby van taking honey on you. You 596 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 9: don't know where they're going and just taking them somewhere 597 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 9: and telling you like, oh, you can't know where they are, 598 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 9: like or witches. I don't know. I'm sorry. 599 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: How do you go on knowing so little? 600 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 9: It's really hard and I think about it every day, 601 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 9: but never really showed what to do about it, Like, yeah, 602 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 9: I do want justice from my child mm because he 603 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 9: was just an innocent baby. 604 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 7: Hi. 605 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 3: Oh, wow, she's beautiful. I mean you made her beautiful. 606 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 3: You put you put no polush on her? Wow, doesn't 607 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 3: look like a princes. Yes. 608 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 4: Leah has finally had her daughter returned to her care. 609 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 4: She cherishes every moment, but she says not a day 610 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 4: passes when the loss of Joseph doesn't well inside of her. 611 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,919 Speaker 3: The last time I seen Joseph was when I had 612 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 3: taken my daughter, and it was the last time both 613 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 3: of us had seen him while he was alive. So 614 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 3: I'm glad that she got a chance to see him 615 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 3: before he passed. Because they weren't just taken from me, 616 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 3: they were taken from each other. 617 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 4: She finally reunited with her daughter after a judge closed 618 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 4: her DCFS case and she's rebuilding her family, but they 619 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 4: all miss Joseph tremendously. 620 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 3: I feel like the least they can do is give 621 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 3: me an answer. I feel like that's the least you 622 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 3: can give any parent whose child passes, is an answer. 623 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 3: I just want to answer how it happened, because you 624 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 3: can't go the rest of your life not knowing. 625 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: Cow do you want justice? 626 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 5: I do? 627 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 3: I want. I want to know how it happened, and 628 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 3: I want to know why it happened, and based on 629 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 3: how it happened, I do want there to be justice. Okay, 630 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 3: you can get a juice. You can get a juice. 631 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 3: You're welcome. I yes, do you want me to get it? 632 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 4: Of course, with Joseph's death declared accidental and no charges 633 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 4: against the foster mother or anyone, Leah decided to pursue 634 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 4: a civil suit. She's actively looking for some measure of accountability. 635 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 4: She wants someone to listen to her side of how 636 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 4: the system treated her. 637 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 3: A lot of things need to change. Things need to 638 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 3: change with how social workers interact with yeah, how they 639 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 3: interact with families, and how they decide if a child 640 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 3: gets taken away from their parents. I think things need 641 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 3: to change with giving people resources before they take away 642 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 3: a child. What is it or your doctor coat? 643 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 9: You're going to be a doctor? Y? 644 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, I can. 645 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,959 Speaker 3: Okay, did your me to help you? Opener? You're gonna 646 00:42:49,960 --> 00:43:02,280 Speaker 3: have grandpa open it? Okay? 647 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,240 Speaker 5: Heka, Thanks, You're welcome. 648 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Dipa Fernandez with help from 649 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 2: Victoria Strada. It was edited by Marta Martinez and mixed 650 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 2: by Julia Caruso and Elisiva YouTube. 651 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:36,240 Speaker 1: Dipa is an. 652 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 2: Early Childhood Reporting fellow at Pacific Oaks College, which is 653 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 2: funded in part by First five l A. Fact checking 654 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 2: for this episode by Ben Calin. The Latino USA team 655 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 2: includes Andrea Lopez Gruzsado, Mike Sargent, Julia Da Martinelli, Gini Montalo, 656 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 2: Alejandra Salazad Rinaldo, Leanos Junior, and Julia Rocha, with help 657 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 2: from Raoul Perees. Our editor director is Juyo Ricardo Parella. 658 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Lori Turkey, chac Chu and Beth Harus 659 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 2: of the Kids Data Program, Richard Cohene of USC School 660 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 2: of Social Work, Susan E. Seger of UC Irvine School 661 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 2: of Law, Neo Rossini, and Silvie de Tolelo. Our engineers 662 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 2: include Stephanie Lebau and Leah Shaw Damaran, with help from 663 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 2: Gabriella Bias. Our digital editor is Luis Luna. Our New 664 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 2: York Women's Foundation nig Nite fellow is Marie es Kinka. 665 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 2: Our intern is Oscar de Leon. Our theme music was 666 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 2: composed by Zanie Robinos. If you like the music you 667 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 2: heard on this episode, stop by Latinousa dot org and 668 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 2: check out our weekly Spotify playlist. I'm your host and 669 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 2: executive producer Maria no Josa. Join us again on our 670 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 2: next episode, and in the meantime, look for us on 671 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 2: your social media. 672 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: I'll see you there. 673 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 2: Bye. 674 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 8: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Annie 675 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 8: Casey Foundation. 676 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 4: Creates a brighter future for the nation's children by strengthening families, 677 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:08,320 Speaker 4: building greater economic opportunity, and transforming communities. The Heising Simons 678 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:15,839 Speaker 4: Foundation unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities more at hsfoundation dot org. 679 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 3: And funding for Latino USA's coverage of a culture of 680 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 3: Health is made possible in part by a grant from 681 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 3: the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.