1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News in iHeartRadio, It's the Big Tig. I'm 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: West Kasova. Today, nuclear power is back in the conversation 3 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: as Germany's leaders say the country may need to extend 4 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: the life of nuclear plants if it cannot replace all 5 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: its gas imports from Russia. The French President Emanuel Macron 6 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: has announced today new measures on increasing nuclear output. He 7 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: wants at least six new reactors built in the coming decade, 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: and I Governor Newsom just did his part to keep 9 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: California's last nuclear power plant up and running. Or to 10 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: Japan now, where the Prime Minister Fumio Kishida has pledged 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: to restart more nuclear power plants to provide energy as 12 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: Japan struggles with its hottest summer on record. But eleven 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: years on from the Fukushima disaster, high oil and gas 14 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: prices have governments looking for cheaper, more plentiful alternatives of power. 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: One possibility that's been around for decades about not so 16 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: loved nuclear Fears about radioactive meltdowns still linger in a 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: lot of people's minds, many years after disasters in Chernobyl 18 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six and at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi plant 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven. Now several countries, including the US, are 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: taken another look. They're considering extending the life of aging 21 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: plants and possibly building new ones. Bloomberg reporter Shokooda covers 22 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: the energy industry, and she joins me now from Tokyo 23 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: to explain the government's thinking and how people in Japan 24 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: feel about turning the reactors back on. Shoko, has been 25 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: many years since the Fukushima disaster, and I think the 26 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: world's memory has faded somewhat. Can you remind us just 27 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: how deva is stating this disaster was and really still 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: is for many people in Japan. Sure? Really, the Fukushima 29 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: nuclear disaster was an inflection point for Japan's energy strategy. 30 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: Everything really changed after this disaster, which was the worsest 31 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: Chernobyl in nineteen eighties. Oh March eleven, twenty eleven, a 32 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: magnitude nine earthquake struck the northeastern coast of Japan, and 33 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: what happened was massive tsunamis overwhelmed the Fukushima Daichi Nuclear 34 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: Power plant, which led to power for cooling systems at 35 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: the site to be shut off and then nuclear meltdown 36 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: at the reactors so immediately after this accident, Japan took 37 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: all of its reactors offline. At that point, we had 38 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: fifty four nuclear reactors in the country. There was really 39 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: big public backlash against the use of nuclear for the 40 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: longest time, you know, nuclear was a very sensitive topic 41 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: among the public. And now Japan currently for electricity relies 42 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: heavily on a mix of natural gas and coal and 43 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: also sub renewable like solar. And in the aftermath of 44 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: that disaster, many people were displaced and had to stay 45 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: away for a lot of years. Thousands of people still 46 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: have not really put their lives back together to the 47 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: way they were before. Yeah, so twelve years after the disaster, 48 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: the effects are still here. We visited a town in 49 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: Fukushima Prefecture up in the northeastern coast. But you know, 50 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: even though some of the restrictions have been lifted and 51 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: people are allowed to go back, many have decided to 52 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: not return because they've already rebuilt their lives elsewhere. It's 53 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: taken twelve years to get where we are today in Japan, 54 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's hard to kind of 55 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: gauge how long we've come, especially when you come visit 56 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: these towns and see that people are still having mixed 57 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: thoughts about returning and now here we have a global 58 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: energy crisis which is hitting Japan like it's hitting so 59 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: many other places. Really something that you couldn't imagine happening 60 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: just a few years ago, it is happening, which is 61 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: people are starting to to think maybe it's time to 62 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: turn nuclear back on. Yeah, I think like everywhere else, 63 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: our bills and gas bills and Japan have been rising, 64 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: and twenty twenty two really was almost like a year. 65 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: It was a reminder for Japan how little resources we 66 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: have and how exposed we are to global turboil. Japan 67 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: imports almost all of its energy needs, so the country 68 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: was really hit hard by natural gas and coal prices surging, 69 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: and that's cut into the profits of utility companies, which 70 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: in the end have also led to power bill has 71 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: been rising for households and small businesses. So there's been 72 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: pulling conducted by Japanese newspapers that do indicate that people 73 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: are warming up to the use of nuclear again in 74 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: the belief that by turning these reactors back on, the 75 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: utilities don't have to procure expensive fuel from broad and 76 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: thus lower power bills. So in August last year, Prime 77 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: Minister Keshita commented that he wants Japan to consider developing 78 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: next generation nuclear reactors, and that was a big shift 79 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: because for the longest time, since twenty eleven, the government 80 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: towed around the wording of what Japal will do with 81 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: replacing nuclear reactors, out of being decommissioned or building a 82 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: completely brand new ones, there was a lot of unclarity 83 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: about where Japan will be with the future of nuclear. 84 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: But Prime Minister Keishiita said that we need nuclear for 85 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: energy security, but also decarbonization as carbon free power source, 86 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: and he's kind of launched this platform to try to 87 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: have a plan to build new next generation reactors. Not 88 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: only that, but now the government has a plan to 89 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: extend the lifespan of existing reactors. So the current rules 90 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: are that utilities can operate nuclear reactors for forty years 91 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: and then get one time lifespan extension and operated for 92 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: sixty years. Now the government is saying that it should 93 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: be operated beyond sixty if the reactors are safe. So 94 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: that's a pretty big shift from where we were, you know, 95 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: twelve years ago. And then with this global energy crisis, 96 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: the government really kind of gearing up You mentioned that 97 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: public polling shows that people are starting to warm up 98 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: to this idea, but I imagine there's quite a lot 99 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: of division and mixed feelings and strong emotions. Are people 100 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: talking about this a lot. It's definitely popping up on 101 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: local media, local newspapers, also social media spheres. It's really 102 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: lingering in the minds of people, whether you're anti nuclear 103 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: or pro nuclear, or maybe even conflicted, which I think 104 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people are conflicted. You have this surgeon, 105 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: power bills and gas bills. At the same time you 106 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: have memories of what happened twelve years ago. It was 107 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: really traumatic event for Japan. You know, what do you do? 108 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: Is nuclear really the answer? You spoke to you one 109 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: man whose family has run a hotel near Fukushima. He 110 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: left along with everyone else, but has since come back. 111 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about his experience? Sure? So, we 112 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: spoke with Tutomu Hirayama. He's from one of the towns 113 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: affected by the Fukushiba Daichi nuclear power disaster. When we 114 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: spoke to him, he sounded very conflicted and very mixed 115 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: about the use of nuclear and he's basically seen both 116 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: the economic benefits of having nuclear power stations in his 117 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 1: neighborhood and his community, but also having been affected by 118 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: the actual disaster, he's seemed like the worst of what 119 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: could happen. In terms of benefits, He's talked about how 120 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: the nuclear power plant provided employment for local community so 121 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: people could work there, and because the government gives funding 122 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: to municipalities that do host these nuclear reactors, that money 123 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: could be used to build public infrastructure and building, so 124 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: there are some benefits. At the same time, he's told 125 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: me about having been evacuated from the hometown after the 126 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: nuclear disaster and not being able to return for a 127 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: few years, and being concerned about whether he's able to 128 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: ever come back to his hometown. You know, it's really 129 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: a horrible experience. Hidayama has been one of the first 130 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: to be able to go back to the town, specifically 131 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: because they needed the construction workers to be able to 132 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: stay in hotel, but the duration of their stay. We actually, 133 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,119 Speaker 1: when we visited his hometown and spent a night their reporting, 134 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: we stayed at his hotel. Not only at the hotel, 135 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: but in the restaurants and other areas throughout the town. 136 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: You could really see that it's really dominated by a 137 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: lot of construction workers, and it speaks to I think, 138 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: even twelve years after, the reconstruction process is still really ongoing. 139 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: And you know, when I asked he Diama about this 140 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: black or white debate around using nuclear power in Japan, 141 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: he got really pensive and then told me that he 142 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: could understand both sides and how they both feel. Are 143 00:09:51,080 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: you nice? Look too much more? Walk on? But at 144 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: the end of the day, he says he's against nuclear 145 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: because of what to do with the spent nuclear fuels, 146 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: which is another question that the Japanese government has to 147 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: still kind of figure out where the nuclear fuels will 148 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: go at the lifespan. But at the same time, he 149 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: knows that by turning nuclear on, if power bills can 150 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: be lowered, it could really help lower income people at 151 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: lower income households and people who are affected by this 152 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: inflationary pressure. Well, that raises another point, which is we're 153 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: in the middle of an energy crisis now where prices 154 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: are high and people are looking for alternatives. But how 155 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: likely is it that even if they were to very 156 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: quickly approve putting nuclear power plants back online and building 157 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: new ones, that people would actually get that power. So 158 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: in terms of building brand new reactors, I think there's 159 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: question of whether Japanese power companies today have the risk 160 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: appetite to want to invest in a completely new reactor 161 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: or let alone replace a decommissioning one with a next 162 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: generation reactor. I think that's a question to be asked 163 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: whether the operators even want to do this today, especially 164 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, earthquakes are still very much a risk in Japan. 165 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: It's a very earthquake pro own country. So you can't 166 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: say that something like twenty eleven will happen again, or 167 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: an earthquake that size will happen again. So I think 168 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: there are some questions whether, you know, despite the government 169 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: push to use nuclear again, how speedily can that be 170 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: available or how readily that will be back online. Chokoda, 171 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: thanks for speaking with me today. Thanks for having me 172 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: when we come back. Japan isn't alone in taking a 173 00:11:54,480 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: new look to nuclear power. Japan is just one country 174 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: that's weighing new investment in nuclear power. Will Wade is 175 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Power and Renewable Energy editor in New York, and 176 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: he's here to tell us more. What are you looking 177 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: for as someone who covers this industry, Well, I've been 178 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: covering nuclear for several years now, and I would say 179 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: in the past eighteen months twenty four months, there's been 180 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: a really visible and obvious shift. I say there's a 181 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: renaissance in nuclear energy these days, and it's because people 182 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: are realizing they really need nuclear power to help achieve 183 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: climate goals. There's just no other way you can reach 184 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: our goals of cutting emissions without using nuclear. Wind and 185 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: solar are great. You could build lots of it, but 186 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: they don't run all the time. Only nuclear does that, 187 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: and that's why we're seeing so much more support for 188 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: nuclear from so many corners of the world. How is 189 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: that playing out? So the thing about nuclear power is 190 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: that it is clean energy. There's no carbon that comes 191 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: out of nuclear reactors, and that's really good. But for 192 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: the past many decades, environmentalists have been really opposed to 193 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: nuclear power because of the waste that's created from reactors. 194 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: And it's true, nuclear waste from the spent fuel rods 195 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: is really really bad stuff. It'll stayed deadly for thousands 196 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: of years, but there's not that much of it and 197 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: the track record is pretty good for the industry. And 198 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: now that climate change is becoming a very real, very 199 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: tangible threat, people are starting to say that that real 200 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: threat is more of an issue than the potential threat 201 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: of a nuclear accident. So we're seeing a lot more 202 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: interest in nuclear energy as a key part of the 203 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: climate solution. And I guess people when they think about 204 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: nuclear a lot of them focused on the big disasters 205 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: three Mile Island in nineteen seventy nine, or Chernobyl in 206 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: eighty six, or of course Fukushim in twenty eleven. But 207 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: there are a lot of nuclear power plants around the world. 208 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: What is the kind of balance between safety and advantage. 209 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: So the thing about nuclear accidents is you just listed them. 210 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: They've basically been about three in the history of the 211 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: industry since we started using nuclear power back in the 212 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. So the potential damage is significant, but there 213 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: have not been a significant number of accidents. So if 214 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: we look at say Europe, where if we were to 215 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: take France, which has a fairly well developed nuclear program, 216 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: how has that worked out? How are other countries looking 217 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: at the examples of nations that use nuclear power as 218 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: a model like what they want to do and what 219 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: they don't want to do. Well, France is a good example. 220 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: France is the most nuclear country in the world. They 221 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: get about seventy percent of their electricity from nuclear power plants, 222 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: and they're very committed to it. They've said that they 223 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: want to advance their program even more. They announced last 224 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: year a big program to expand their nuclear fleet. Other 225 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: countries are sort of looking at at the same way. 226 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: The UK gets about fifteen percent of its energy right 227 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: now from nuclear power plants. They want to make that 228 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: twenty five percent by twenty fifty. And again it's really 229 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: comes down to climate goals. People are looking at nuclear 230 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: as the only clean energy source that runs around the clock. 231 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: The thing about France is last year they discovered that 232 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: there were some significant problems. I think sixteen of their 233 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: fifty six reactors were down for a significant amount of 234 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: time last year. They're not all back up. It was 235 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: a really big problem. France exports electricity throughout Europe, and 236 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: at a time when all of Europe is saying we 237 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: don't want natural gas from Russia, we don't want to 238 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: get coal from Russia. We need electricity. Can we get 239 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: some from France? And France was saying no, we don't 240 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: have enough to go around right now. It's a big problem. 241 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: I think nuclear generation in France was down about a 242 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: third in twenty twenty two, and that, of course was 243 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: happening at the same time that Europe was squeezed by 244 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: dwindling gas supplies from Russia. Yeah, and not only that, 245 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: Europe said we're going to stop importing coal from Russia. 246 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: So there's no coal from Russia. They're trying to not 247 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: use gas from Russia. They weren't getting nuclear power from France. 248 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: That's why that Europe was worried about electricity Ville last year. 249 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: Right next door in Germany, that country shut down it's 250 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: nuclear reactors after the Fukushima disaster. What's happening there now? 251 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: So Germany shut down most of their nuclear reactors after Fukushima, 252 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: and they had a plan to phase them all out. 253 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: The last three were supposed to shut down just in December, 254 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: a couple months ago, but a few months before that 255 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: they sort of realized, oh wait, we need that electricity. 256 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: They've extended that until April, so a few more months. 257 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: It's not huge. There's a lot of people that are 258 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: looking that decision and saying, what are you nuts? You 259 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: need the electricity? Why shut these down right now? I mean, 260 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: if you want to shut them down eventually, you can, 261 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: but right now probably isn't the best time. Building nuclear 262 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: reactors new ones is one thing, and it takes a 263 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: really long time, it costs a whole lot of money, 264 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: and so a lot of the conversation is around extending 265 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: the life of existing reactors. Can you get into the 266 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: complications of that. When the nuclear power plants are built, 267 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: they picked the life span of forty years, and they 268 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: just said, all right, these things, we should run them 269 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: for about forty years. We'll license them for forty years. 270 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: Most of them have then been extended to sixty years. 271 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: You can ask for a sixty year extension. A few 272 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 1: of them have now got their second extension. I think 273 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: about six of them in the US, so now they're 274 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: approved for eighty years, and there's another couple dozen that 275 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: we know that they're probably going to seek that second extension. 276 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: So a lot of the US fleet now or soon 277 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: will be approved to run towards eighty years. And I've 278 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: even heard researchers are starting to study the question, could 279 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: we extend them to one hundred years? Could we have 280 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: a century year old nuclear power plant? So I'm a 281 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: nuclear expert, but I don't know if anything that runs 282 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: for a hundred years, is it the best idea to 283 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: run a nuclear reactor for that long. That's a fair question. 284 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: The thing to keep in mind is that the maintenance 285 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: programs are really, really strict, so they shut down every 286 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: eighteen months to refuel them, to put in new nuclear 287 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: fuel rods, and at the same time they do a 288 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: lot of maintenance. Most of the parts are not the 289 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: original parts. Is it the same plant, yes? Or is 290 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: it all the same parts? Mostly not so much. There's 291 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,239 Speaker 1: a couple of things that can't be replaced, like the 292 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: concrete floor, the big pad underneath it, the giant containment vessel. 293 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: Those things can't be replaced. So if you have a 294 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: problem with that, it's not going to keep going. But 295 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: they can keep going for a long time. And another 296 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: thing to keep in mind is so it is now 297 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and the average age of nuclear plants 298 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: in the US is about four decades forty years old. 299 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: So coming upon that original forty year mark, right, so 300 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: if we're talking about sixty years old, eighty years old, 301 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: that'll take us into the twenty fifties and beyond. Who 302 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: knows what's going to be available at that time. We 303 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: may not even need them. Then you mentioned the waste problem, 304 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: and that's always a problem because nobody wants that stuff 305 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: near them. I remember a few years back there was 306 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: this huge argument in the US about burying it in 307 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: a mountain in Nevada, and there is no political appetite 308 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: for them. We got shut down, and I don't know 309 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: that they've ever really found a place for it. And 310 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: so how does that issue get solved? How do you 311 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: safely store the waste, which if we increase the use 312 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: of nuclear energy, there's gonna be a lot more of it. 313 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: And you're exactly right. There was a plan to store 314 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: it and under a mountain and Nevada out in the 315 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: middle of nowhere called Yuca Mountain, and the people in 316 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 1: Nevada's kind of resisted that. So what happens now is 317 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: basically every nuclear power plant out behind it in the 318 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: back forty has a big concrete pad where they have 319 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: these giant casks. They're about I don't know, about ten 320 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: feet across and thirty feet tall, and that's where all 321 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: the nuclear waste is and they just store them there, 322 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: every single one of them. And even power plants that 323 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: have been decommissioned and dismantled and there's nothing they're left 324 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: except a nice field and the old storage casts because 325 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: there's no place to put them. And that's a political 326 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: question because the US government has sort of passed a 327 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: law that says, yes, the government is responsible for the 328 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: nuclear waste. They'll make it their problem, and now they 329 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: don't have a place to put it, so they just 330 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: leave it there. There are a couple of proposals now 331 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: to build sort of centralized sites, one in West Texas 332 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: and one in East New Mexico. They're actually pretty close 333 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: to each other. They're probably going to get approved by 334 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: the Nuclear Regulatory Commission soon, I think this year, so 335 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: we may soon have a repository for all that nuclear waste. 336 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: So if you look down the road five years, ten 337 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: years from now, do you think we're going to have 338 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: a significant increase in the amount of energy that comes 339 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: from nuclear five to ten years. No. The thing about 340 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: covering nuclear energy is that everything a nuclear moves really 341 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: really slowly. In ten years, we might have the first 342 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: small modular reactors in operation, but there's going to be 343 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: a lot of activity pushing towards that. Fifteen years from now, 344 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: I think there'll be a lot more nuclear energy. So 345 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: people who are hoping that nuclear could be the solution 346 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: for today's energy crunch. Are out of luck, but maybe 347 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: by the time then next time we have a world 348 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 1: energy shock, we'll have a solution at hand. We'll probably 349 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: be working towards it. Yes, well, wait, thanks so much 350 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: for talking with me. Happy to be here. Nuclear has 351 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: its upsides, and it definitely has its downsides, as we've heard, 352 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: So how do you weigh them? That's after the break. 353 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: We've heard a lot today about the risks of nuclear power, 354 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: so we thought it would be interesting to ask an 355 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: unabashed nuclear booster to come on the show and make 356 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: her case for the upside. Doctor Jessica Lovering is co 357 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: founder and executive director of Good Energy Collective. That's a 358 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: think tank that promotes pro nuclear policies with a climate 359 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: change perspective. Our producer Michael Falro, talked to her about 360 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: weighing the benefits and risks. So let's talk about where 361 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: our energy mix is right now. How much US energy 362 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: is renewable as like solar, wind, hydro, how much is 363 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: nuclear right now and where could those numbers be going 364 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: in the next decade or so. So in the US 365 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: last year nuclear was about twenty percent of our electricity, 366 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't know that nuclear makes 367 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: up such a large share of our grid in the US, 368 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: but it's been at twenty percent for a couple decades now. 369 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: It's been pretty stable and is probably in the next 370 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 1: ten years is going to stay at twenty percent. Fossil 371 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: fuels are still producing about sixty percent of the electricity 372 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: in the US, and renewables were at about twenty two 373 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: percent last year. So most of the growth is coming 374 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: from wind and solar, and really from wind. Wind was 375 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: about ten percent of our electricity last year and that's 376 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: only growing. And if you project kind of those current 377 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: trends out, we might see renewables hit forty percent of 378 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: US electricity generation by twenty thirty. But there are some 379 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: serious obstacles and reasons why it might slow down. We 380 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: might have some kind of friction in getting to higher 381 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: penetrations of renewables. What are those obstacles with with renewables 382 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: that maybe something like nuclear isn't going to phase so 383 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: big wind is transmission. Renewables are geographically dispersed. You know, 384 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: a lot of our wind comes from the Midwest, solar 385 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: tends to be in the Southwest, and we need to 386 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: move it to where it's needed, and there are limits 387 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: to how much you can move on the current grid infrastructure, 388 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: the current transmission system, and it's really hard to build 389 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: new transmission lines, especially the high voltage transmission lines that 390 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: you need to move power for our distances. So that's 391 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: one constraint. Another one that people don't think about but 392 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: is actually a growing issue is local opposition. So renewables 393 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: for the most part, when I'm talking, I'm talking about 394 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: wind and solar, they take up a lot of land 395 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: for the amount of electricity they produce. And you might think, okay, well, 396 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: we have a lot of land in the US. Other 397 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: countries like Japan don't, and they're much more constrained on 398 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: where they can build renewables. But in the US, yeah, 399 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: we have a lot of land. Is there really a 400 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: big issue? But the reason that it is becoming more 401 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: of a concern is that if a project takes up 402 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: a lot of land, it also impacts a lot of communities, 403 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: a lot of people, and there's much more chance that 404 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: you're going to have local opposition. Nuclear has its own challenges, 405 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: but having a diversity of options, particularly ones that are 406 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: more land efficient like nuclear, which as a really small 407 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: footprint and our lower materials requirement can be really helpful 408 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: for balancing a clean energy system. So I live in California, 409 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: and last summer we had a lot of concerns around 410 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: power shortfall, particularly in the summer on really hot days 411 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: when everyone's running their ac and that was a big 412 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: motivator for why the governor of California, Governor Newsom, announced 413 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 1: that he wanted to keep our last remaining nuclear power 414 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: plant open a few more years. Are supposed to start 415 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: closing down next year, so extending it another five years 416 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: because we don't have enough power on those hot sunny days. 417 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: Even though California has seen huge growth and renewables, we 418 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: have grid scale storage coming online, it's just not enough. 419 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: So talk more about this quote that you gave our 420 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: reporter Will Wade. You said, the calculus is changing on 421 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: keeping these plants open, talking about nuclear plants around the world. 422 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: The economics haven't shifted, but the climate economics have shifted. 423 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: What did you mean by that? So I want to 424 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: make a point really quick that I think is counterintuitive 425 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: to most people, which is nuclear is actually really cheap. 426 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 1: And so I know that's a surprise to a lot 427 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: of people, but that aside. When we talk about the 428 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: economics of nuclear there's kind of two issues that get 429 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: muddled together, so there's cost and value. In the last 430 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: ten years, we've seen a lot of nuclear plants closing 431 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: quote unquote for economic reasons, and that's really because natural 432 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: gas is so cheap in the US. It's got a 433 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: little more expensive in last year, but still pretty cheap 434 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: compared to the rest of the world, and that's what 435 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: replaces this last generation when nuclear closes, which is really 436 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: bad from a carbon perspective, but for consumers it's not 437 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: a big deal. So what's causing a rethink now is 438 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: that governments and utilities are waking up to the fact 439 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: that nuclear plants provide a lot of value because they 440 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: are general electricity twenty four seven, they're very reliable, and 441 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: they also just happen to be zero emissions. You know, 442 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: when most of these plants were built, climate change wasn't 443 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: a big concern. They were built for the fact that 444 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: they just provide a lot of electricity pretty cheaply, and 445 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: so you're starting to see that reflected in how governments 446 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: and how utilities are valuing existing nuclear and you're seeing 447 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: that with credits being provided in federal legislation in the US, 448 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: but also a reinvestment or new investments in new nuclear. 449 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: As we're looking towards planning for deep decarbonization or clean 450 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: energy transition, we really need to start valuing the clean 451 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: energy attributes of nuclear and not just treating them like 452 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: fossil fuels, which is how they are done in a 453 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: lot of countries. So I think it's safe to say 454 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: you're a pro nuclear expert. You think about this all 455 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: the time every day. When you tell people in your 456 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: life what you do and why you're for nuclear power, 457 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: what do you tell them. That's a good question, because 458 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: I do talk about nuclear with people a lot, talking 459 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: about what I do. I think the main way that 460 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: I talk about nuclear is the truth, which is I 461 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: got interested in nuclear because of climate change, and I 462 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: think that's something people don't think about a lot. But 463 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, nuclear is the largest source of carbon free 464 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: electricity in the US, it's the largest source in most 465 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: countries unless they have really large stores of hydro and 466 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: so if we're serious about taking action on climate change 467 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: and getting to zero carbon in the shortest time possible, 468 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: nuclear is just a critical tool to do that. It's 469 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: not that I don't think nuclear has problems. I think 470 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: nuclear has a lot of problems, but I want to 471 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: work on policies that address those problems rather than say, Okay, 472 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: we can't have nuclear because it has some issues. Because 473 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: really all energy sources have pros and cons, and so 474 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: we want to work to minimize the cons of every 475 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: energy source and focus on the benefits, which are reliable, 476 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: clean electricity. Doctor Levering, thanks for joining us on The 477 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: Big Take. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for listening 478 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: to us here at The Big Take. It's a daily 479 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from my 480 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever 481 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email 482 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. 483 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Bergolina. 484 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producers are Michael 485 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: Flero and Mobarrow. Raphael m Seely is our engineer. Our 486 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm west Kasova. 487 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.