1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. My guest today, 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: author Lawrence Wright thinks a lot about religion. He wants 6 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: to know why people choose one faith over another, especially 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: when what they choose seems quote absurd or dangerous to 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: an outsider. This question has led Right to investigate some 9 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: of the world's most complicated and secretive organizations, from the 10 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: People's Temple in Jonestown to the Church of Scientology. His 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: book on al Qaeda won the Polite Surprise in two 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: thousand seven. Lawrence Right has a unique firsthand experience at 13 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: us to the power of belief. I grew up in 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: Dallas and the Methodist Church, and there was despite the 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: fact that Methodism doesn't have a reputation as being kind 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 1: of a you know, hell fire and Brimstone, the first 17 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: of the churches that we went to in Dallas really 18 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: was that. And then we graduated to the Methodist Church downtown. 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: My dad taught Sunday school for many many years. You know, 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: Dallas back at that time was the most pious city 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: in America. We had the largest Methodist, Baptist I think, 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: the largest Episcopal church, and one of the largest Catholic 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: churches in the entire country. And at the same time 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: we had the highest murder rate and the highest divorce rate, 25 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, all the things that go along with excess 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: pet you know. So it was and I was very 27 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: pious as a teenager. I was in a group called 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: Young Life, and um, genuinely or you were responding to pressure, No, 29 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: I was. I was, well, there was part of those things. 30 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: It was. You know, I had moved around a lot 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: as my dad was a banker and we moved, uh, 32 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: quite a lot, and it was hard for me to 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: establish roots. So when I got to Dallas and this, 34 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, Young Life came out. It was a social 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: club for me. But also it was the first time 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: I understood the you can bend yourself into the shape 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: of the organization the way it wants you to be. 38 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: And also the more pious you are, sort of the 39 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: higher you climb, the more important. So I got to 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: be part of it. Yeah, well you just say those 41 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: things and it's and you want to believe them. I 42 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: was not consciously trying to deceive anyone. At the same time, 43 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: you know what to set your your heart felt and genuine, 44 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: but at the same time you realize that there's a 45 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: there's an approval system here. Yeah, and I think that 46 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: that experience um was formative in some ways for me 47 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: to be so interested in religious matters and why you know, 48 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 1: I people are always, you know, reporters, especially fascinated by politics. 49 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: But you can have strong political views and it doesn't 50 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: affect your life at all, But if you have strong 51 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: religious views, they probably dictate much of your behavior. Is 52 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: puzzling to me why with most journalists it's just embarrassing 53 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: to ask about what people believe because it's not supposed 54 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: to matter. Due to leave the area to go to college, 55 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: I went to Tulane in New Orleans, which was a 56 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: city least like Dallas that I could find and you 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: could buy beer and woolworth and you could drink at 58 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: eighteen and uh there you know a lot of things 59 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: of at that time, I kind of shed that, but 60 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: I was actively looking for a way to live a 61 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: more bohemian life. I felt very constricted in Dallas. Was 62 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: writing something that was on your mind, even at an 63 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: early age. Yeah. Yeah, I took a creative writing class. 64 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: You know, I was not a disst school paper now. 65 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: I used to like doing that stuff though. And then um, 66 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: after I graduated, Um, you know, the Venom War was 67 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: going on, and uh, I became a conscientious objector and 68 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: spent two years of alternative service teaching in Cairo. And 69 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: that's where I became involved for the first time with 70 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: the Arab world. And when the boy from Dallas becomes 71 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: a conscientious objector, how did that go off? Back home? 72 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: You know, I my dad was a war hero, and 73 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to be like him. I was in our otc. 74 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: I expected, you know, to to follow in his footsteps. 75 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: But you know, there was this parallel problem going on, 76 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: which was the Vietnam War, which was despicable different and 77 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: it was it was a bad war. And you know, 78 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,679 Speaker 1: for a person, a young man like me who wanted 79 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: to serve his country but did not want to kill 80 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: people for the wrong reason or risk my life for 81 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,679 Speaker 1: something I didn't believe in, it just was a terrible 82 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: My father and I had horrible, horrible fights about Vietnam. 83 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: Do you have any brothers no. I had two younger sisters, 84 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: so you were you were the scion. Did you ever 85 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: make peace with him about that? Yeah? You know, I 86 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: wrote a memoir about growing up in Dallas during the 87 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: Kennedy assassination and in America during the Vietnam Era, And 88 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: in the process of doing that, I talked to my 89 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: parents a lot, and I let them read the manuscript, 90 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: and it was a very healing experience for all of us. 91 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: I think, when does writing become a career decision for you? 92 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: When I came back from Egypt in ninety one, I 93 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: decided that I was going to write an article for it. 94 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: This way, I decided I was going to write an 95 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: article for the New Yorker. I hadn't contacted them, and no, no, no, 96 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: they had no idea. My folks had a little late 97 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: cabin up in Equipment Texas, in East Texas, and so 98 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,799 Speaker 1: my wife and I moved out there for six months 99 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: while I wrote letter from Cairo, and um there was 100 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: a report from so there we was r f D 101 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: you know mail, and there was we had a little 102 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: you know box out on the road where you raised 103 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: the red flag and the mailman stops. And I sent 104 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: my manuscript into the New Yorker, and sure, this isn't true, 105 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: but it seemed that it came back the next day 106 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: from equipment Texas to Mr Shawn's desk to back equipment 107 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: with a you know, a little rejection card in there. 108 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: And that was, you know, my first attempt at becoming 109 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: a writer. It would it would be many many years 110 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: later that I actually got a chance to write for 111 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: The New Yorker. You're in Kyro, You're married, you know. Um, 112 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: this is an odd story because you know, I went 113 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: in too. I had to get a job that was 114 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: fifty miles from my home, and that wasn't a problem 115 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: I wanted. I was so sick of America at that time, 116 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: and the argument over the war was so devastating, and 117 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: I just wanted to had as far away as I could. 118 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: And it had to pay very little, and it had 119 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: to be nominally in the service in the United States, 120 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: so I uh, in the bedpen jobs were all taken, 121 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: which normally is what a conscientious objector does, but this 122 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: was during the Nixon recession, and those were all taken. 123 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: So I thought I would go to the U n 124 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: and you know, get a job, and they sent me far, 125 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: far away and I went to the u N and 126 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: they said, no, we don't do that. But here's a 127 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: list of American institutions abroad. Look at them. And one 128 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: of them, American University in Cairo, had an office across 129 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: the street at eight sixty six un Plaza, And do 130 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: you remember Huntington Hartford and show magazine here. I thought 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: he might, well, you know, he had a famous office, 132 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: and I realized it was in the same building. And 133 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: I thought, I'll go over and peek into Huntington Hartford's 134 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: office and then I'll go upstairs and asked for a job. 135 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: So I did that, and you know, I walked in 136 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: and I didn't I knew that there had been a 137 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: war in the Middle East, but I wasn't, you know, 138 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't the war that I was focused on, you know. 139 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: And uh, and I didn't know that we didn't have 140 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: any diplomatic relations with the with Egypt at the time. 141 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: I'm not even sure what language they spoke. But I 142 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: walked in and thirty minutes later they said can you 143 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: leave tonight? And I said, well, no, Um, my girlfriend's 144 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: back in Boston and I haven't told my parents what 145 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: I'm doing, and can you leave tomorrow. Well, yeah, I 146 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: go tomorrow. So calls and I went back and I 147 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: told my girlfriend, now my wife, I'm going to Egypt 148 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: tomorrow and I don't know where that leaves us, and 149 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: I'll be gone for two years. And and then, um, 150 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: and I called my parents from JFK the next morning 151 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: and told him I was going to Cairo. And I 152 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: flew to Cairo and landed, you know, late at night, 153 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: and the next morning, at nine o'clock, I taught my 154 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: first class. After a couple of weeks. Um, I was 155 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: really missing Roberta. Back then, you didn't make telephone calls, 156 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, international calls and stuff like that. So we're 157 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: letters were passing, and at some point I said, um, 158 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: you know the terms under which we left were. You know, 159 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: you can't go. You just couldn't live together in Egypt. 160 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: You know, it was very conservative society. And if I 161 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: invite you to come, that means we'll get married. So uh, 162 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: and you know our letters crossed in the mail. I 163 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: asked her to come, and she said she was coming anyway. 164 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: And then did you name your first child Huntington? No, 165 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: but that would have been Then the question became where 166 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: to get married, because there was this idea that was 167 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: sowhere in the back of my mind that if I 168 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: got married in Egypt under Islamic law, I could have 169 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: additional three wives, which was an option. I wasn't sure 170 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: that I wanted to exercise. But if you know, it 171 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: could be, you know, you could have pulled it off. 172 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: It's a contingency. I don't think I have the management skills. 173 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: Over there. They insist you be married. You can be 174 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: married as many times as you want. Where they just 175 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: insisted that you'd be married. So you're there for two years, 176 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: you come back, yeah, and then what happens? Then? I 177 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: talked the start the long road of trying to start 178 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: a career in as a writer, and you moved to 179 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: where The first job I got was in Nashville for 180 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: the race relations reporter. I was the only writer for 181 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: a long time. But uh, we would go into situations where, 182 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, there was racial conflict and oftentimes the local 183 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: press was biased or not paying attention to it, and 184 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: so it might be about you know, the civil rights 185 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: movement in the South, or Indians. You know, the Indian 186 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: movement was under weigh at the time of school desegregation 187 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: was very active. All those things I got a chance 188 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: to write about. It taught me quite a lot about 189 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: how you know, to actually write an article is a 190 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: matter of being plunged into it. Is there a mentor 191 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: you have the a very crazy editor named Jim Leeson 192 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: Um in Nashville. Yeah. Him. It was a strange man 193 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: um and uh he he the whole culture was a 194 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: little strange, to be honest. I um, Jim. When I 195 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: went to apply for the job, I was a pretty 196 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: good tennis player, and he asked about that, and so 197 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: um he asked if we could play tennis the next day. 198 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: So I show up in my tennis does and he 199 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: goes out and plays me in his street shoes, And 200 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: of course I beat him pretty soundly. But but still 201 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: the notion that he would play tennis and street shoes 202 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: was um. And he wound up firing me when I 203 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: wrote a memo suggesting that we reorganized the I would 204 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: probably I deserve to be fired, I imagine, so, but 205 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: it was a it was another test to be plunged 206 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: into the freelance market. I first became familiar with you 207 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: and you're writing in the Olympia Washington story. Um. The 208 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: piece it was entitled Remembering Satan, which you wrote as 209 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: a book as well. These were excerpts in the book. 210 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: There was a two part lengthy excerpt in the edition 211 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: of The New Yorker. And I first became familiar with you, 212 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: and I mean I was just supposed to, you know, 213 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: like knocked out by this piece. I thought, I know, 214 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: how on earth is this possible? Had you written pieces 215 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: like that, I mean the scientology piece the book and 216 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: going clear, which we're gonna get to that obviously, and 217 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: this piece, uh, there's uh, there's some fascinating people either 218 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: putting themselves or putting other people through some living hell. 219 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: Here was this the first such piece you wrote, the 220 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: Olympia piece. No, I think I had written about you know, 221 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: a lot of different even wrote about Satanists, and you know, 222 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: of people of all sorts of I mean, if you're 223 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: a reporter and you have a passport to write about anybody, um, 224 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: and I took full advantage of that. But that remembering 225 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: Satan is kind of a uh, stereotypical type of article 226 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: that I like to write about, which is um, for 227 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: one thing, it's a discreet world, you know, in this case, 228 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: it was you know, this world inside Olympia, Washington, that 229 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: had been infected by these hysterical memories of satanic ritual 230 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: abuse which never occurred. But a man was convicted of 231 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: these crimes. He confessed to them because he remembered them, 232 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: and there was other than his memory, there was no 233 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: evidence of if I remember correctly, no one else was 234 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: sentenced to prison. Only Paul went to prison. What's this 235 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: relationship with his family now? Or do you even know? 236 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: It's very broken as far as I haven't talked to 237 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: Paul in a couple of years, but you know he's 238 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: married again. You know, he's he started another life, and 239 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: but you know, it's an example of how the mind 240 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: can be so persuaded of, you know, a false real 241 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: quality that and I think everybody is capable of that. 242 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: I don't don't you want to know if I would 243 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: say that whatever capable of that. But creating a false 244 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: reality one of the things that has been an education 245 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: to me as a reporter when I'm out interviewing people 246 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: that have been, for instance, in al Quaeda or you know, 247 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: people that have come out of you know, I've interviewed 248 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: the children of Jim Jones, and you know, as talk 249 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: to people who went into scientology, they're not crazy people, 250 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: then they're not stupid, and you know they're they're often 251 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, if there's a commonality, there's idealism. Uh. You know, 252 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: they're longing to make, you know, change history, makes something 253 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: of yourself and UH, that's you know, maybe that's one 254 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: of the most dangerous elements of our human nature, is 255 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: that we it's the better parts of our nature that 256 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: sometimes lead us into real dangerous areas. With the better 257 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: parts of the natures of Jones as children from well, 258 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, they were they were essentially captive to him. 259 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: So but and they survived, thank god. They were all 260 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: playing basketball in a tournament and Georgetown, Guiana, so they 261 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: weren't killing when the killings went down. But the it's 262 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: always to me, it is always uh underscored the danger 263 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: of these kinds of fanatical belief systems. Uh. There were 264 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: these three boys U two adopted. UH Stephen was a 265 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: natural son and he looked very much like his father, 266 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: Jim Jones, with the kind of Cherokee cheek bones and 267 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: he's very tall and striking, handsome man. And then there 268 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: was Jim Jones Jr. Who was black, UM and UH adopted. 269 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: And then the third adopted son, was Tim. Who is 270 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: this big red headed guy. Tim, these boys when I 271 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: talked to him, Waco was going on at that time, 272 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: the Branch Davidian episode, and Tina Brown was the editor 273 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: of the New Yorker, and she wanted me to go 274 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: to Waco. And I said, they're more reporters and Waco 275 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: than there are Branch Davidians. I just but I was. 276 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: I was convinced that this must you know, I had 277 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: seen the children, some of the children that were sent out. 278 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: I thought that must have happened before. And I found 279 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: these three boys who had never then grown men, never 280 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: told their story before. And I don't know why they 281 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: were willing to talk to me. But Tim, when I 282 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: got to him, uh, he's He demanded that we do 283 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: it in a restaurant, in a public place, because he 284 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: didn't want to cry, and he had never told his wife, 285 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: his current wife, what had happened. Man, he wanted to 286 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: say this story one time. Now, bear in mind, Tim 287 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: Jones is a massive fellow. He can he can press 288 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: a hundred pounds with either arm. You know, he is 289 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: a immense physical presence. And we went to the restaurant 290 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: and in a few minutes he was pounding the table 291 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: and sobbing, because Tim is the one who had to 292 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 1: go into the jungle and identified nine people his real parents, 293 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: his adoptive parents, his wife at the time, and his children, 294 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: everybody lying on the ground and U it makes an impression. 295 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: Did he ever confide to you or or even just 296 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: discussed to you what he thought was going on there? 297 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: What he thought? Joy They all knew that their dad 298 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: was crazy and that he happened. What was he doing there? 299 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: You know, he was giving these suicide drills regularly. You know, 300 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: they break out the what was the purpose of Jonestown? 301 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: Oh well, they stated purpose was two They were Jones 302 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: was intensely paranoid. He had the feeling that the government 303 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: was persecuting him, which was not really true at all. 304 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: But one night the entire church to appeared. You know, 305 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: they all went secretly to this little South American country 306 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: with it, you know, in the in the middle of 307 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: the jungle. They've been preparing it, the boys. Yeah, and 308 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: it was just a you know, it's like a you know, 309 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: a little summer camp type of thing. They built quanset 310 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: huts and so on, and they were living near a river, 311 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: and they built an airstrip. I remember reading on this 312 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: thing online where they said that Jonestown was this training 313 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: ground where they were breading mk ultra operatives who were 314 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: capable of committing murder on behalf of the government, and 315 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: then they have a memory of it. Well, you know, 316 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that's true, but I remember reading 317 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: that once. I was fast when I was writing about 318 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: remembering Satan, when I was doing the you know, the 319 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: multiple personalities were supposed to be the product of Satanic 320 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: ritual abuse, and there was a big rise in multiple 321 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: personality disorder, and one of the theories was that the 322 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: multiples had been created by the CIA in order that 323 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: one personality could become a I and you know, deliver 324 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: messages that other personalities inside the same human being wouldn't 325 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: know about. Lawrence, writes. New Yorker article The Orphans of Jonestown, 326 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: came out for the fifteenth anniversary of the nineteen seventy 327 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: eight massacre that killed over nine people. Listen to more 328 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: conversations with writers who take on complicated issues, like David Simon, 329 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: who wrote the TV show The Wire but started out 330 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: as a beat reporter for the Baltimore Sun. I think 331 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: I was very fair as a reporter. You know, some 332 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: of poverty is about personal responsibility, and some of it 333 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: is not. Some of it is systemic and a result 334 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: of societal forces that are profound. Take a listen in 335 00:19:42,960 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: our archives that here's the thing dot Org. This is 336 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. You're listening to. Here's the thing. My guest, 337 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: Lawrence Wright prefers taking notes on index cards over using 338 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: a computer. You can only imagine the number of cards 339 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: Right used for his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood and 340 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: the Prison of Belief. After it was published in two 341 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, documentary filmmaker Alex Gibney asked right if he 342 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: considered an adaptation. We'd worked together before. You know, I 343 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: had done this book about al Qaeda called The Looming Tower, 344 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: and I had just my little acting venture. I Um, 345 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: I didn't more travel with it. You know, I just 346 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: hate touring, you know, doing the book tour thing. Yeah. 347 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: I had seen Anna Davere Smith do fires in the 348 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: mirror at the Public Theater in and Is the first 349 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: time I could see the journalism and theater could be married. 350 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: And I fascinated by that. So I did a one 351 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: man show called My Trip to Al Qaeda and I 352 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: did it off Broadway for about six weeks and in 353 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: a few other cities, and Alex saw me do it 354 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: in Washington. We decided to make it into a documentary, 355 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: which we did for HBO. We hit it off. Alex 356 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: Is is a is a his nickname from childhood as 357 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: Tiger and his well chosen name, and he's a very 358 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: skillful storyteller. And it takes those qualities to take something 359 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: as complicated about an organization as vindictive and litigious as 360 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology. It takes somebody like Alex to 361 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: put together a movie like he's just done. One of 362 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: the things I thought when I saw the film, and 363 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: I mean all my friends and people who know me personally, 364 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't lost on them that within about a week 365 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: ever return from Park City for the festival, I went 366 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: there to have a vacation with my family and we 367 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: just tacked on an extra weekend to see some movies 368 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: because I'm a big fan of the festival um and 369 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't lost to my friends. Within about a week 370 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: after that, I was back on a plane to London 371 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: to go shoot a film with Tom Cruise. And Tom 372 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: is a friend of mine and um. I mean, I 373 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: consider him a friend in the business sense where we 374 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: don't get to see each other that often, but he's 375 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: always very kind and as people who know Tom know, 376 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: he's a great person to be in the trenches of 377 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: movie making with. He's very hard working and very very 378 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: um passionate about the work. But when I saw the film, 379 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: one thing I didn't get And maybe it's there, maybe 380 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: it was in the book and maybe it's in the film, 381 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: but it was I mean, I watched this film with 382 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: intense scrutiny. There wasn't any sense to me of what 383 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: are the people who are in scientology and remain in 384 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: scientology and who are dedicated to this, What do they 385 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: perceive they're getting out of it? Because I have some 386 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: opinions about that when people have told me, well, what 387 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: does it do for them? Why are they there? Especially 388 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: when people go into scientology, they don't you know, they 389 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: don't go into it because it's a cult. They go 390 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: into it oftentimes because they're looking for something well, you know, 391 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: sometimes they're spiritual seekers or there. You know, you might 392 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: be um one of those people that goes down on 393 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: the subway and someone says, would you like to take 394 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: our personality tests, you know, and um, sure Oxford capacity analysis. 395 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: It sounds like, you know, might be and you know, 396 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: well if we see that you have a little trouble 397 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: of communicating with people, that's true, Well we you know, 398 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: we can we can help you with that. Or in 399 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: the case of Paul Haggis, um, you know, he had 400 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: a girlfriend that he was having trouble with and say 401 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: we we have a course that can help you in 402 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: your relationships. And the truth is, oftentimes they can help. 403 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: It's like going into therapy. People do benefit from it. 404 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: So this initial exposure to scientology is often very positive 405 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: to people. What about the people like Travolta, people who 406 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: seemed to have the world on a silver platter and 407 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: everything is going their way, Well that wasn't true. When 408 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: he got in. He was a you know, troubled young 409 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: man who was in his first movie in Mexico. He 410 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: confided to an actress who was on the set. You know, 411 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: he's having these difficulties, and she was a scientologist, and 412 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: she gave him some auditing, which is what scientology calls 413 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: his therapy, and gave him a copy of Dinetics and 414 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: so on. He had an experience which happens to a 415 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: lot of scientologists when they're being audited. He went exterior. 416 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: In other words, he had an out of body experience. 417 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: He had a sense that he had left his corporal 418 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: being and could look around the room and you know, 419 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: see things behind him and so on. At the time 420 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: he was taking a course, when he tried out for 421 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: this welcome Back Carter, the teacher had everybody in the 422 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: class turned their direction. I think he cps studios, you know, 423 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: but telepathically send the message to the executives that the 424 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: John Travolta is right for the role. And he got 425 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: the part. And so he always credited scientology was putting 426 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: him in the big time, as he said, so you know, 427 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: in that sense, he really did feel that it had 428 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: changed his life. But it's one thing to get into it, 429 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: and it's another thing to get out of it. If 430 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: you are a star like Travolta was at one time 431 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: the biggest star in the world, and uh, you have 432 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: put your name down again and again and again. As 433 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 1: a scientologist, you're identified with it, and they have tapes 434 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: of you, yes, discussing your darkest moments. Right like if 435 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: you and I were sitting in a scientology auditing session, 436 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: right now, and you're my auditor, and you know, and 437 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: I'm holding the cans which are attached to the E meter, 438 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: and you're probing uh and asking me very impersonal questions 439 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: about my life and and things that I would not 440 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: want to disclose to anyone else except in its very 441 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: confidential confessional atmosphereiating material that is actually secretly recorded, sometimes videoed, 442 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: and then it becomes apparent to you that if you 443 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: decide to leave UM, the church may use some of 444 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: that against you. And I talked to that. I talked 445 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: to a guy whose assignment was to go through all 446 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: those old auditing sessions on John Travolta and find stuff 447 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: they could use against him because they were worried that 448 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: he was going to go over the wall right in 449 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: the piece in the film. The one thing I found 450 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: that was disturbing was that I mean, and you correct 451 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: me with this, this assessment, and that is that there 452 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: are celebrities and wealthy public figures who tie the certain 453 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: amount of their money millions of dollars to this organization, 454 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: a second tier, if you will, and this is my description, 455 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: the second tier, if you will, or you know, the 456 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: middle Americans, middle income who often go into debt often 457 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: go into dangerous amounts of debt, an unwise amounts of 458 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: debt in order to pay for these ordering courses. So 459 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: for them to give money to the church. And then 460 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: there's people who are poor, who have nothing, who wind 461 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: up trading in kind services. They become you know, they 462 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: become like a labor force from them, and then they 463 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: get forty cents an hour according to the film, and 464 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: and and they're doing a lot of work that benefits 465 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: other people. In the film, they're saying that these people 466 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: are maintaining the hangar of cruises airplanes. Well, not only 467 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: maintained it. What they did was refurbish it. They built 468 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: all the furnitur, they painted it, they you know, they 469 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: essentially took an empty hangar and made it into an 470 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: office in a place for his planes, and all these 471 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: elaborate Have you ever been in his hangar burbank. Well, 472 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: he's got you know these you know, big the cows 473 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, you know, banners hanging down. It is. 474 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: It is a pretty swank environment. And they handcrafted a 475 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: limousine for him, and oversaw the reconstruction of his tour bus, 476 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 1: and they you know, refurbished his house and these are 477 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: people who are paid fifty dollars a week. Many of 478 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: them joined as children, so you know, they're impoverished, and 479 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: they have no place to go they have, you know, 480 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: and if if they do, they don't know what they 481 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: know then But of course maybe it may be the 482 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: case that their families and all are in the church 483 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: and if they left, none of those people would ever 484 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: speak to them. You think the people who were the 485 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: beneficiaries of this kind of stuff, do they know what's happening. 486 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: There's no question that Tom Cruise knows what's going on 487 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: inside the Sea Org. And I hold Tom to account. 488 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: I single him out in particular. And because they're only 489 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: two ways that the abuses that we chronicle in the 490 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: movie and in my book, there are only two ways 491 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: that they can be addressed, and one is that the I. R. 492 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: S Decides well, maybe we should re examine that tax 493 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: exemption that we were bludgeoned into given them. In I'm 494 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: explained for people who don't know, but this is a 495 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: fascinating part of the film. It was during the time 496 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: that m. Hubbard was alive, or was the settlement reached 497 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: after Hubbard dies after he died, and and Apparently he 498 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: had a brigade and I had been raising a lot 499 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: of money, and he had and he had a lot 500 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: of cash at his disposal and was just shelling the 501 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: I R S and litigation to maintain their status. And 502 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: finally the IRS just caved and said, well, here's the 503 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: situation that described would have David Muscavage found himself in. 504 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: After Hubbard died, he wrestled control of this organization. And 505 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: Hubbard had decided not to pay the taxes, and so 506 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: by the Church of Scientology was a billion dollars in 507 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: arrears and it didn't have a billion dollars, and so 508 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: this was an existential moment for the church. They had 509 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: to get a tax exemption. And moreover, the I R 510 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: S hated them because, you know, in the eighties Hubbard 511 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: had infiltrated um all these you know, the Justice Department, 512 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: the I R S, Food and Drug Administration hit all 513 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: these Scientology spies inside the government until the FBI broke 514 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 1: it open and what was called Operations Snow White, and 515 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: twelve people went to prison, including Hubbard's wife. So the 516 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: I R S among other government agencies did not look 517 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: kindly on the Church of Scientology. So how do you 518 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: just imagine how you would go about getting a tax 519 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: exemption from the I R S. Well, the scientology way 520 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: was to launch twenty four hundred lawsuits against the I 521 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: r S and individual agents, to hire private investigators to 522 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: follow agents around to go to conventions where they might 523 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: be drinking too much or fooling around. I don't have 524 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: a billion dollars to pay the taxes, but I've got 525 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: fifty million to lobs some grenades. Yes, yeah, and so 526 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: of you. And they they they they won, and they 527 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: wanted my personal feeling. It is twofold. One is I 528 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: think that the I R S just did cave because 529 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: I guess the deal that the deal on the table was, 530 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: will give you the exemption and and all those lawsuits 531 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: will go away? And they did. And so did they say, well, 532 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: will we'll give you the exemption and take away this lassus? 533 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: Would you have to pay us some amount of this 534 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: money and a million dollars? And that's all that's the 535 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: I R S that's fired. And moreover, it was such 536 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: an overwhelming exemption. The church has manifold different entities, you know, 537 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: but even Hubbard's novels are considered to be scripture and 538 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: tax and uh, in the church now has the authority 539 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: to determine which parts of itself should be tax exempt. 540 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: Who was it in the film? If I remember correctly, 541 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: there's someone I think there's an individual use site who 542 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: says to Hubbard early in his career, the only way 543 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: you're gonna get riches if you started religious. They were 544 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: about ten people he said that too, And uh, you know, 545 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: I think that Hubbard really, I think he really did 546 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: believe that. But let me get back to that question 547 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: of you know, just to touch back on Tom Cruise 548 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: before we finish that if the if the I r 549 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: S re examined after the licking it took from from Scientology, 550 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: if it decided to go back and re examine that 551 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: that might force change inside the church. But I haven't 552 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: seen any evidence that the I R S has the 553 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: appetite to do this. Almost the Senator on the West Coast, 554 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: the Senator Ron Widen, is looking into this, and so 555 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, that's a possible. But the other way that 556 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: change and reform could come in scientology is that some 557 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: of the celebrity megaphones turn around in the other direction 558 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: and demand change. And nobody has benefitted more from Scientology 559 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: than Tom Cruise. Nobody is more identified in the public 560 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: with the Church of Scientology than Tom Cruise. Nobody has 561 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: wrought lured more people into the church than Tom Cruise. 562 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: If you ask people name one member of the Church 563 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: of Scientology, that's the one. And uh and moreover, it's 564 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: a powerful I mean if you look at you know, 565 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: he was the number one box office star, so he 566 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: had Travolta then uh than Tom Cruise, and you know, 567 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: and also Will Smith who started a scientology school. Although 568 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: he says he's not a scientologist, he was one of 569 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: the time he was number one. So you have one 570 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: to three the most powerful actors in among the most 571 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: And if you're a young actor standing out in central 572 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: casting waiting to get maybe he's not a bad idea. 573 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: If I stopped by this center, well, when you're standing 574 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: in line, they'll be passing out brochure saying how to 575 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: get an agent, how to get ahead and the business. 576 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: Come to the celebrity center where that direct link. Yes, 577 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: and he also back in the old days the acting 578 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: schools like the Beverly Hills Playhouse was run. But could 579 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: sell us who was my teacher? He was apparently a 580 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: wonderful teacher, and he was a scientologist. And did he 581 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: ever try to recruit you? I think I wasn't there 582 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: long enough. I was there for under a year. I 583 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: went briefly, and could sell Us was quite a character. 584 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: He was I'm fascinated by well could sell Us. He 585 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: said something that although it was very arch and very 586 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: um kind of you might think this was egomaniacal. He 587 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: was nonetheless right. There was a guy up on stage 588 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: doing a scene. I was in this class mine then 589 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: girlfriend got me into the class. This guy's up there 590 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: doing a scene I'll never forget, and could sell Us 591 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: is giving his notes on the scene, and the guy 592 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: starts to debate him. He says, well, yeah, I don't 593 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: think it's really and could sell Us says, I beg 594 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: your pardner, and he says, well I don't. He goes, well, 595 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: I think it's this, and he goes what it is is, 596 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: and could sell Us is now insisting and being a 597 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: little more because he was very powerful guy rhetorically, and 598 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: he goes and says it again, and the guy debates 599 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: him again, and could sell Us is He said, We're 600 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: not here for you to debate what I tell you. 601 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: He said, you come here and you pay me for 602 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: me to give you my opinion. He said, I'm not 603 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: interested in your opinion. I give you my opinion, and 604 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: you listen. He turns to the classics. And that's it. 605 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: We don't discuss what I'm saying. This isn't a debate. 606 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: I say what I say, You listen, you write it 607 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: down perhaps, and we're done. And um, scientology I have 608 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: found and this is I mean, I I find it odd, 609 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: but at the same time I find it kind of fascinating. Nonetheless, 610 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: where scientology says to you, this is what you were 611 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: put on this earth to do, and and it gives 612 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: you that license and that freedom. You tell your parents, 613 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: your wives, your children, everyone in your life that nothing 614 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: must get in the way of this thing. This is 615 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: the goose that lays the golden egg movie stardom. You're 616 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: so you are, you are different. There's an exceptionalistic nature 617 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: to who you are as a person. And the only 618 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: way you're gonna start first survived. I mean to stay 619 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: in that orbit out there, in that spaceship, living that way. 620 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: That's a very difficult thing to do. And I think 621 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: when so many of these young people where they when 622 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: they come. You know, it is a young person's game 623 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: when they get into it. So many of the people 624 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: that went into scientology, and this is true of anybody 625 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: that tries to become an actor. Many people who try 626 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: to become an actor, they leave high school. They don't 627 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: go to college. You have to go right away. Nearly 628 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: everyone we're talking about is un educated. And so you're 629 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: in your vulnerable intellectually vulnerable. And and also you're risking everything. 630 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: Your friends are going off, they're going to get law 631 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: degrees and stuff like that, and you are out in 632 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, Hollywood, eating dog food, hoping to be a 633 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 1: movie star. There's a sense of inadequacy that you haven't 634 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: filled in the great blanks that all your friends are doing. 635 00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: And and so you alongcome scientologists, which says, why bother 636 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 1: none of that? Yeah, we can, you can supersede all 637 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: that because when we will get you, you will you 638 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: will learn the secrets of the universe, and you'll acquire 639 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: superhuman powers. And that's and also just being noticed at 640 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: all at that level is you know, very powerful. Because 641 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure you've done this a million times. 642 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: But I remember once when I was out in l 643 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: a and I was a Norman Lear's company, and I 644 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: walked into a room in the lobby and there were 645 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: about forty guys who were blond and six ft two 646 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: and extremely handsome and and I felt small and brown 647 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: and uh, and you know, but there was a sign 648 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: saying no actors past this point. And I was able 649 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: to walk past this point, and all those blue eyes 650 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: direction and uh, and I thought, one of those guys, 651 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: one of those guys is going to have his life change, 652 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: and everybody else is gonna go home and some of 653 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: them become law and wars or something like that. But 654 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: that's the risk to have the Church of Scientology come along, 655 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 1: maybe in that same room and passing out brochure is 656 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: saying that we can help you. And and by the way, 657 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: on the brochure that might have a picture of Tom 658 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,479 Speaker 1: Cruise or somebody like that is a very powerful lure. 659 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: And here's people who say to you, you are different, 660 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: Just be different, just accept it, don't fight it. Where 661 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: you're going to go right now is extremely unusual for 662 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: the average person is going to be a very rarefied atmosphere. 663 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: Stay calm in the pocket, and you're gonna throw the 664 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: football a hundred yards down the field. You're gonna score 665 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: the winning touchdown. Don't get in the way of your 666 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: own success. And I have seen many of the people 667 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: I know who are really prominent in scientology, they just 668 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: that's what it did for them. What clarity was for 669 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: them was this is who I am in a macho 670 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: and anybody that tried to make you think what you 671 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: were doing was less valid or less substantial, or less 672 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: meaningful or silly or whatever. These guys and what you're saying, 673 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: what did they get out of it? There is you know, 674 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: this is you know, a sense of solidity of your identity. 675 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: And uh, what's so confounding about scientology in many ways 676 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 1: is that you know, it promises you you will become 677 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: more yourself, and that you will achieve all this freedom 678 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: of thought, and that you you know you you will 679 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: become a saner and healthier and so on. But your past, 680 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: what happened so often is the very opposite. You know, 681 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: you'd be kind of you, you become kind of enslaved 682 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: to the mentality of and you're not allowed to think freely. 683 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that was so striking 684 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: to me about Paul Haggis, who is a very skeptical, imaginative, 685 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 1: curious person. But he was in the church for thirty 686 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: five years, and for thirty four of those years he 687 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: never heard a disparaging word about scientology, never looked on 688 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: the internet, he never read any of those stories because 689 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: he was told not to, and he didn't. He was 690 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: just as obedient as all those other people because he 691 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: was told it was trual curiosity go regarding that. What 692 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: is the thing you're working on now? Well, I'm I'm 693 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: doing you know I did. I did another book about 694 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: camp David Carter b Against the Dot thing, which you know, 695 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: I had a play and I'm now gonna do it 696 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: as a movie for HBO. And I'm doing a pilot 697 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: for HBO on Texas politics, and um, I'm working with 698 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: Bob Balaban on a play about the making of the 699 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 1: movie Cleopatra, which is the thing that I've been having 700 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: the most fun with and I'm gonna write about. Isis 701 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: okay that that's what I wanted to talk to When 702 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: you say I'm going to write about isis? Yeah? I 703 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 1: can't talk about it too much because there but but 704 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 1: I is this more about religious fanaticism for you? Well? 705 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: It in part it is I'm fascinated by the fact 706 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: that the entire fabric of civilization can simply be ripped away. 707 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: And you know that barbarism is just under the sheets 708 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: and in most grotesque fashion. You know, we we look 709 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: back in the twentieth century and you see Nazi is 710 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: um and people. How did that happen? Well, you know 711 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: now it's happening again. It's a mystery when these things occur, 712 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: that human nature can encompass such savagery. But it's right 713 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: there in front of you, and it's and it's also um, 714 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: it's a fact of human nature that people are drawn 715 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: to it. And that's what arouses my curiosity. Do you 716 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: think that when you look at isis? Do you think 717 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: that people I just want to get your general comment 718 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: about this. Do you think that people over there isis 719 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: I should say? And and whoever the next isis? Is? 720 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: It seems to have another They seem to be opening 721 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: up a new show over there every eighteen months or year. Um, 722 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: Do you think that they just hate our guts that 723 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: the United States viewed as a hero of the United 724 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: States viewed as an answer the United States viewed as 725 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: a good guy? Is this just more of people wanted 726 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: to send us some kind of message about us. Far 727 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: and Post think it has as much to do with us, 728 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: although Iraq, our exventors in Iraq where it was, you know, 729 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: that's what broke the egg. And I don't think we 730 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: would be looking at what we're seeing now. But what 731 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: the whole region, what worries me about isis is that 732 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: everything that holds the Middle East together is breaking apart. 733 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: The states are failing. You know, I've been in Syria 734 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: before and it was to me, the least religious Arab 735 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: country that I've ever been in. So it's quite surprising 736 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: to see, you know, this Islamist savagery going on right 737 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: there and there. Yeah, I just I was I was 738 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: taken aback by it. But you know, if I spent 739 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: a lot of time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and 740 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: places like that, and I know that they're not strong, 741 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: resilient governments and they are very fractured societies, and uh, 742 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: in that environment, we saw how it happened in Iraq, 743 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,919 Speaker 1: you know, just almost overnight, Uh, this band of marauders 744 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 1: takes over an area of the size of the United Kingdom. Well, Jesus, 745 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: you know, how did that happen, and will it spread? 746 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: Will these societies be able because we can't stop it. 747 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 1: It's gonna be up to uh Sunni societies in the 748 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: Arab world to stop it themselves, and I don't have 749 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: confidence that they can. That's what concerns me. The problem 750 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: becomes when you identify yourself so much with your religion 751 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: rather than your country or your family or so on, 752 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: that that becomes the sole basis of your identity. And 753 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: it's a real problem in Europe right now for marginalized 754 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: young men who don't feel like they are part of 755 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,919 Speaker 1: French society. For instance, you know, there may be eight 756 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: of the population of France is Muslim, six of the 757 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,760 Speaker 1: prisoners are, so you can you imagine a better example 758 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: of how marginalized a group of people is in a 759 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 1: country is And clearly France has done a horrible job 760 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: of trying to integrate these people into their societies. And 761 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 1: it's not just the fault of the French government. I'm 762 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: holding you know, those Muslims responsible as well for not 763 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,399 Speaker 1: participating more fully in the countries that have adopted them. 764 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: But this is a this is a profound problem, and 765 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: it's gonna last a long time and I feel you 766 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: know that we can't solve it ourselves, and if we 767 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,800 Speaker 1: try to solve it, it'll it'll rebound on us in 768 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: a profound way. Not saying we should disengage entirely, but 769 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: we should be honest about the limits of our ability 770 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: to resolve a problem that is essentially a function of 771 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: the societies that is in I know you're not a 772 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: writer in the Halvardston tradition where you're gonna inhabit some institution. 773 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: But if I can be so bold to recommend the 774 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: next fanatic cool reality that Lawrence Wright shouldn't heaven write 775 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: a book about. I'd love to see your book about 776 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: the Pentagon. That's an interesting Let's see you write a 777 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: book about the Pentagon from top to bottom. You'll give 778 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: me the rights to do it with HBO. I can 779 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: play portray as or someone. We'll have a great time. Well, 780 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: we'll have We'll have a lot of fun. So you're attached. 781 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm attached. I think I'm I'm such a fan of 782 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: you're writing. That's an easy yes. The answer is yes, 783 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm attached. Okay, that's good to know. If you also 784 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: appreciate Lawrence Rights work, there's a lot more to consume 785 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: nine books, five plays, countless articles. The documentary film based 786 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: on his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison 787 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: of Belief is currently available on HBO on Demand and 788 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: HBO Go. And if you're ever in Austin you might 789 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: be able to catch him playing keyboard in the Blues 790 00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:04,880 Speaker 1: collective Who Do m H. Right said of playing in 791 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: a band quote, I decided a while ago that I 792 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: would only do things that are really important or really fun. 793 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: This is really fun. This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. 794 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: Here's the thing.