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Speaker 1: This is a me eater podcast coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bote bitten in my case underwear. Listen, don't e podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can't predict anything. So Greg Blaskovich just told a story,

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Speaker 1: but he won't tell he wanted to tell a story

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Speaker 1: for we turned the machine on. He might be abdible

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Speaker 1: pulled out of me. It's like it was a family story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to tell any more than that. I

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Speaker 1: can crack right into it. Actually, I feel like I

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Speaker 1: can share. You don't need to, Okay, I don't want

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Speaker 1: you talking about you know, I don't everybody know what

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Speaker 1: you tell about your your beautiful wife's family. And then

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Speaker 1: we're commenting on how you're honest, um, how gray on

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Speaker 1: he's getting. He was saying, it looks like if you

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Speaker 1: took a picture of him, it'd be like it'd be

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Speaker 1: like looking at pictures of Obama uh on the inauguration

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Speaker 1: day and now, and that you guys have around parallel

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Speaker 1: parallel hair pads, a lot of hair though. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: got more than hetty, but it makes you look like

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Speaker 1: you look distinguished. Though, Man, you got like that George

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Speaker 1: Clooney kind of thing I'm going for. Yeah, if I

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Speaker 1: get when I started getting all gray, I just hope

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Speaker 1: I got like a big old thick head of hair.

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Speaker 1: But I already got my hairstyle playing out man when

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Speaker 1: I go bald and everything on him? Dude? You know

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Speaker 1: how dudes that are going bald, they just slicking back.

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Speaker 1: That's not I have might be like like no, not

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Speaker 1: like that, like long long, Yeah, I don't know anyways, Greg,

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Speaker 1: I haven't thought this through all the way. Brought about

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Speaker 1: a little prematurely, Greg Blast, Which is that Polish? What

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Speaker 1: is that Croatian? Is that right? You're a croat I'm

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Speaker 1: an American? But yeah, yeah, is it? Um? Do you

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Speaker 1: feel it as bad? Are you still? You know, in

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Speaker 1: in our changing um? You know, we're always changing the rules.

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Speaker 1: Can you still ask people like if they're Polish? Or well?

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Speaker 1: I'm certainly not the person. You didn't take about that?

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Speaker 1: You know? I mean, would you did you? Were you

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Speaker 1: just surprised that I would have asked you that? No?

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Speaker 1: Not at all. People ask about my last name all

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Speaker 1: the time. When I grew up. It was like what's

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Speaker 1: that Russian? Yeah? Blast, And they're like, oh, you got Slavin.

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, it's great. So the Croatians. How

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Speaker 1: long has your family been in the US forever? Like,

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Speaker 1: are you like an American mutt? Oh, My mom's side,

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Speaker 1: half of her side has been here and since like

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Speaker 1: I think before the Revolution. The other early from England.

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Speaker 1: My dad's side was late mid to late eighteen nineties

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Speaker 1: from Croatian Italy. Yeah, that's the thing is like you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm Italian by name only now. My old man when

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Speaker 1: he was born, he was raised up by his grandparents

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Speaker 1: and they spoke Italian in the home. Did he's making

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Speaker 1: he by the time he but no, I mean by

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Speaker 1: the time he died, I mean he was it meant

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Speaker 1: it was nothing. Yeah, I mean he he would like

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Speaker 1: get like if you know, if he was eating some

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Speaker 1: spaghetti or something, that might have like some nostalgic feeling

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Speaker 1: or something. But but no, he it was like no,

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Speaker 1: well used for it. But he carried with him, um

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Speaker 1: a lot of strange stereotypes about other ethnicities that you

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Speaker 1: would have that that he brought over, the biases that

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Speaker 1: it felt like, yeah, like that felt quaint, Like he

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Speaker 1: would have these ideas that um that the Hollanders who

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Speaker 1: would call Hollanders like you would never go to a

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Speaker 1: yard sale that the Hollander was throwing because Hollanders that

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Speaker 1: tended to overvalue the shrewd Dutch. They tended to overvalue

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Speaker 1: the things that they owned. So he had a lot

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Speaker 1: of things that are like part like yeah, but biases

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Speaker 1: against again people who had been in the who had

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Speaker 1: been in the country for so long. But he was

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Speaker 1: raising little Italy in Chicago, so he cared like he

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Speaker 1: would talk about going and getting beat up by the

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Speaker 1: Irish kids, you know what I mean. So he had

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Speaker 1: like he had like a um he viewed American culture

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Speaker 1: still like last name meant a lot to the guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I'm getting at. Well, you know, I I

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time over in Croatia. I'm the

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Speaker 1: first one of my family to have like gone back.

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Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't really like a going back trip,

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Speaker 1: but I always wanted to check it out because of

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Speaker 1: my last name, and so I did in college and

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Speaker 1: then I just kept go unpacked. Got a good base

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Speaker 1: of friends over there, did a little bit of work

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Speaker 1: for political party, that sort of thing. But like I

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Speaker 1: can't speak it at one time, I could like get

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Speaker 1: around it, get in and out of taxis in like

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Speaker 1: order couldn't have conversations. It's an extremely odd language. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Lavian lover here has never been to Laba. I

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Speaker 1: would have thought you've been. There's more. There are more Latvians.

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Speaker 1: There are more Labvians here in America then there are

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Speaker 1: in Latvia. There are more Croats abroad than in Croatia.

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Speaker 1: There's four point five million in Croatia and seven someone.

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't surprise me maybe worldwide. That's how there's tons

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Speaker 1: in Australia. All right, now, Greg said, scene for me

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Speaker 1: to tell tell what you do? Now? Um, A PhD

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Speaker 1: candidate studies political communication at Stanford. At Stanford, Yeah, now

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Speaker 1: what labut you're in? What's the lab in the political

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Speaker 1: communication lab? Yeah? That's why you want me to give

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Speaker 1: a background on it. Yeah, but I want to ask

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Speaker 1: this first. I think we might talk about this at

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Speaker 1: some point in time. We're gonna talk about what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna eventually get around and talk about. Here is is

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Speaker 1: some of Greg's interesting work. And um, as far as

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Speaker 1: public perception, public opinion, a hunting. But did you and

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Speaker 1: I talked about years ago and there was a news

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Speaker 1: story that came out. I feel like it came out

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Speaker 1: of Stanford where they were pulling ahead of a gay

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Speaker 1: rights initiative. It doesn't ring a bell, and they would

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Speaker 1: have they would like pull neighborhoods to see how they

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Speaker 1: felt about an initiative, and then they would have gay

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Speaker 1: couples go and canvas the neighborhood. I know what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about, but we didn't. We didn't talk. That was

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Speaker 1: I thought. I asked about that. You know about that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just vaguely, but yeah, but that that wasn't United't that

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Speaker 1: wasn't a Stanford thing. But we had we know, we

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Speaker 1: haven't discussed that. Do you know that study? Well not well,

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Speaker 1: I know of it, right, and it was people respond

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Speaker 1: differently obviously when the when the canvassers are okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you'd like you'd call up a dude's house and

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Speaker 1: be like, hey man, how do you feel about this? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the gay marriage bill coming up, and they'd

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Speaker 1: be like hell with that? Yeah, And then you know,

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Speaker 1: a gay couple go to the house and be like,

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Speaker 1: hey man, just so happens this kind of thing affects

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Speaker 1: us directly where your neighbors keep us in mind? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: then you call that due to while back, you know,

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Speaker 1: calling a while later and be like, hey, man, how

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Speaker 1: are you feeling about this gay rights initiative? Oh? You know,

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Speaker 1: I could see both sides of it, you know, what

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Speaker 1: would change their like just like the smallest amount of exposure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: people get really excited about that. For some reason. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I feel like it was discredited. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what That's what I want to ask what I'm

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Speaker 1: I feel like I I heard the same thing because

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Speaker 1: part of me is thinking, man, I feel like there's

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Speaker 1: another side of this coin like I heard it. It

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Speaker 1: didn't work out kind of yeah, it was build, it

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Speaker 1: made it made the news. It was billed as this

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Speaker 1: sort of breakthrough, and then some more details emerged and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't his revolution. It was kind of too good

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Speaker 1: to be true to begin with. I mean, if it

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Speaker 1: retains some credibility. I don't want to like slander, but

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Speaker 1: it would be amazing if you could change people's uh

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Speaker 1: entrenched views simply by having them meet, you know, member

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Speaker 1: of a certain community your door step for a couple

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Speaker 1: of minutes. I mean, that would to have that effect

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Speaker 1: linger for however long they had after the after the exposure,

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Speaker 1: would be incredible. If it was like the two weeks

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Speaker 1: you were talking about. Yeah, all right, so now breakdown

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Speaker 1: what you're all about there, what's going on? So originally

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Speaker 1: I was in a PhD program in political science down

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Speaker 1: at UC Santa Barbara. And uh so, how traditional political

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Speaker 1: science studies polarization, you know, like political polarization. How they've

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Speaker 1: done that. They've never really been able to generate consensus

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Speaker 1: on whether American society has polarized. To a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who don't study politics, that elicits kind of raised eyebrows,

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Speaker 1: right because it's like, what are you talking about, Like

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Speaker 1: it's so divisive out there. But what they've done, um

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Speaker 1: is or how they've defined polarization is whether or not

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Speaker 1: people's ideological viewpoints are moving to the left and the right.

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Speaker 1: Devoid of partisan labels, right, it's like, how do you

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Speaker 1: feel about issue A, how do you feel about immigration?

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Speaker 1: Here's seven possible responses, you know, pick your favorite. And

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Speaker 1: when you don't have party labels, you know, everyone just

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Speaker 1: answer is what they what they feel. Uh And it's

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Speaker 1: not a bipolar distribution. It's a totally normal distribution where

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Speaker 1: a center right country kind of always happened. We're all capitalists,

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Speaker 1: um and ah. Essentially it was. You know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of grappling with this idea of like, well, it feels

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Speaker 1: like it's certainly really heated out there, and it feels

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Speaker 1: like it's polarized, but this isn't really capturing it. And

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Speaker 1: so but back up, I don't understand how what do

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Speaker 1: you mean by not capturing it? So, if you had

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Speaker 1: polarization defined by people's ideological viewpoints going farther left and

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Speaker 1: farther right, you would see a bipolar distribution of responses, right,

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Speaker 1: you would have like those must be the Democrats. But

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Speaker 1: we have a normal where intersted country in terms of

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Speaker 1: just our policy positions. Like if you were to ask people,

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Speaker 1: you give them, like, uh, one to ten, pick your

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Speaker 1: favorite number. If half the country picked one and half

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Speaker 1: the country picks ten, you'd be like, man, that's a

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Speaker 1: bipolar distribution. But basically we still have a lot of fours, five, sixes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's where it centers around. Sure, Yeah, there's it's only

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Speaker 1: the tales where it gets really like ideological fringe, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like that's the only story you've been

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Speaker 1: hearing is about how polarized we are. Now, well, so

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Speaker 1: this is so I think we are polarized, but we've

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Speaker 1: been Um. I mean, I don't think that's a bad metric,

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Speaker 1: but it certainly doesn't capture what a lot of us

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Speaker 1: are feeling. So I got interested in the concept of

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Speaker 1: what we now call affective polarization. I started studying this

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Speaker 1: at UCSB, and it's basically taking a social psychological approach

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Speaker 1: and saying, you know, I think what we're seeing out

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Speaker 1: here in terms of kind of the heated politics is

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Speaker 1: more how democrats and Republicans feel toward one another. How

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Speaker 1: do I regard Republicans or how do I regard Democrats

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Speaker 1: rather than like, well, what's my ideological aggregate score on

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Speaker 1: all the issues? Um And at my now advisor at

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Speaker 1: Stanford chantau Erongar has done a lot of good work

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Speaker 1: on this and basically demonstrated that over the past fifty years,

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Speaker 1: you know, this affective bias against our party opponents has skyrocketed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it it's now just you know, you can basically

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Speaker 1: study it. Like social psychologists have studied race and ethnicity

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Speaker 1: and religion, all these kind of in group outgroup differences

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Speaker 1: that we we kind of think about classically. You can

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Speaker 1: do the same with politics. UM. And, so I'm in

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Speaker 1: the political communication lab and we're really focused around kind

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Speaker 1: of this concept of affective polarization or it's called part

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Speaker 1: as an affect, but it's basically, you know, the biases

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Speaker 1: between in groups and outgroups. And I just happen to

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Speaker 1: study folks who label themselves either Democrats or Republicans. You're

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Speaker 1: only interested in people who labeled themselves that way. Well,

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of the country does, right, and how

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Speaker 1: we can oh yeah, in what's critical though, is you

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Speaker 1: have to include the independent leaners. Right, So if I'm like,

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Speaker 1: how do you identify Democrat, Republican? Independent? Won't say? You know,

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Speaker 1: most people answer. A ton of people say independent. You know,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of people who call themselves independent tend

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Speaker 1: to lean towards one party or the other. Like if

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Speaker 1: you had to choose, you know, which way do you lean?

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Speaker 1: And we offer them leaning Republican, leaning Democrat, we offer

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Speaker 1: we still offer like strict independent if they if they

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Speaker 1: really don't want to say, but that question gets most

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Speaker 1: people um to admit that they actually lean towards one another,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, like, you know, we're all rational people.

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Speaker 1: I think we look at the facts in front of

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Speaker 1: us and just make like a. We have issues, specific positions, right,

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Speaker 1: and then at the end of the day we make

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Speaker 1: a judgment about like, Okay, well I tend to lean

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Speaker 1: towards this party because I've added up all my positions

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Speaker 1: or something like that. That's where I have a really

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Speaker 1: hard time. It is hard. I've never made the jump.

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Speaker 1: I've never made the lean like if you get if

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Speaker 1: you if you threw things at me, right, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like i'd be split. But are you so? If

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Speaker 1: I put the I said, Steve, you're deciding who's gonna

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Speaker 1: win this next election. I don't know random election and

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Speaker 1: uh in Washington state, right, I don't say you're just

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Speaker 1: gonna pick the party, right, And I said pick up party.

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Speaker 1: If I did that ten times, you're telling me five

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Speaker 1: and five equal split something. I depend on the people.

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Speaker 1: And but you don't understand how in depth I get

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Speaker 1: about this stuff. I actually play because I like as

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Speaker 1: a I want to get to the hunt part of

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Speaker 1: this pretty quick here. But I want to say that

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Speaker 1: I'm so averse to radical change. I am too. Then

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Speaker 1: I actually will look at like the Tug of War.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a guy that walks out to people playing

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Speaker 1: Tech of War and they'd be like, oh man, those

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Speaker 1: guys to get their ass kick. I want to jump

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Speaker 1: and help them not get their ass kick because I'm

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Speaker 1: always playing Like um, I'd like like, I know people

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Speaker 1: would like to complain about gridlock, but I like I

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Speaker 1: like pretty slow measured movement. I don't like radical herky

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Speaker 1: jerky movement because like, if you're any kind of a

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Speaker 1: student of history, you realize that radical um, when you

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Speaker 1: take radical departure from courses, it tends to veer wildly

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Speaker 1: and have a destructive period and then get corrected slowly

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Speaker 1: back to the other direction. So to save all that,

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Speaker 1: I kind of like things to move pretty and easy,

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Speaker 1: and I have, but I always have my eye on

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Speaker 1: on some issues that I'm inflexible about. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: you're preaching to the choir there. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: like you five governments, like a like a split legislator legislature.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I like change too, uh, come slowly. I

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Speaker 1: think it's important, but I think I've changed gonna happen

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Speaker 1: too quickly. That's where you get into you get into trouble.

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Speaker 1: So I guess I'm establishment and that and that's sort

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Speaker 1: of being an anti establishments cool as right, But I'm yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not fun to be it's not fun to describe

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Speaker 1: yourself as established. It's certainly not at the moment. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I look at of out in the bay right now,

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Speaker 1: the late establishment folks exactly. So now, okay, get us

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Speaker 1: around of the park. To get us you can step

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Speaker 1: a wavement, but approach the part, approach the hunt and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and then pull back away if you want. Okay, just

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Speaker 1: give a little teaser, the teaser of the hunting stuff,

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Speaker 1: all right. So you know, as an academic researcher, I

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Speaker 1: have a series of methodological skills, right. I tend to

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Speaker 1: prefer the experimental method. And so I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: let's run an experiment on uh pe Pull's perceptions of hunting. Specifically,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to look at non hunters. And then this

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Speaker 1: question that kept coming up in my mind was generated

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Speaker 1: by things like, you know, hunters make up a tiny

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Speaker 1: minority of the American public, but the vast majority of

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Speaker 1: American public has generally positive feelings towards hunting in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Lay some numbers of that five percent of

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Speaker 1: five or six percent of Americans by a hunt license. Yes, Now,

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Speaker 1: people always like to them point out like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: but there's all this hunting like you could you know,

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Speaker 1: you can go to never admit around me. I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: I like hunt Man and if people are like funny

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Speaker 1: because you never about a hunting license. And then someone

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Speaker 1: point up that you can hunt varmints in Utah without

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Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, yeah, but I hunt vironmout. That's

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Speaker 1: wondering about. You could be a rabbit squirrel hunter in Montana.

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Speaker 1: Never vi license, Brandon Williams, can you I feel like

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Speaker 1: in Montana, I don't think you can hunt small game

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Speaker 1: about a license, but it's not. It's a non it's

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Speaker 1: non game. I think you had to be a license holder,

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Speaker 1: but you had to have a conservation license. I argue

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Speaker 1: about something easy, like there's like a right wrong be

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Speaker 1: very easy to check out. Anyhow, he had found his

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Speaker 1: people had found a way for him to sort of

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Speaker 1: maintain despite his lack of hunting licenses. He did walk

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Speaker 1: back the vironment thing, you know, because first he went

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Speaker 1: like environment hunting people like really like a passionate environment hunter,

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Speaker 1: strictly enviromint's uh, And then he was like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: only really went hunting twice once was on the campaign

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Speaker 1: trail and once was when I was I was with

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Speaker 1: my cousins. You know, it's fine, it's just you know,

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Speaker 1: people are really desperate to show there. But that is

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Speaker 1: a guy. Yeah, that plays into what you're saying. So

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Speaker 1: five or six percent right of the American population buys

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Speaker 1: a hunt license twice as many twice you know, about

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Speaker 1: thirteen million or no, not about thirteen percent by efficient license.

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Speaker 1: I think there's Yeah, there's certainly a larger population of

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Speaker 1: anglers than hunters, and hunting. Hunting still enjoys such a

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Speaker 1: big approval rating that it's a thing politicians do is

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Speaker 1: trying to like establish some hunting credential. Which is weird

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Speaker 1: is you're trying to like establish you're trying to forge

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Speaker 1: a link between you and five or six percent of

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Speaker 1: the American population. But it's a potent symbolism that goes

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Speaker 1: beyond it. Becamember like John Kerry even did that hunt.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he did a goose hunt where he's trying

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Speaker 1: to act like he's like Joe hunting, he's a goose hunt.

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Speaker 1: But then they didn't want him to be filmed holding

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Speaker 1: the gun too much, so he had a guy next

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Speaker 1: to him carrying his gun, which then he already had

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Speaker 1: a problem with Eladi is m. Yeah, then here he

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Speaker 1: was He's already got like a big elitism problem, like

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Speaker 1: being to pertreation, but then here he was some dude

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Speaker 1: tote in his gun for him on a goose hunt.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's like ubiquitous, Like every candidate tries to

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Speaker 1: demonstrate themselves as a as a hunter. I mean, Paul

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Speaker 1: Ryan's secret Service code names bow Hunter. But he is

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Speaker 1: a hunter. He is, He's and I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: Paul Ryan isn't. He has a passionate hunter, but I

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Speaker 1: just mean, uh yeah, lots of lots of candidates try

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Speaker 1: really hard to establish themselves. It's kind of the rule. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Paul Ryan's big hunter. There's the there's the right side

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Speaker 1: of the aisle, Martin Heinrich's big hunter on the D

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Speaker 1: side of the D side of It's good to see,

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Speaker 1: but it is funny when there's the totally urban establishment

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Speaker 1: candidates trying to pretend that so yeah, I like to

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Speaker 1: shoot critters. Um all right, So there we are. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about this divide and it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting question, like why is this happening? So

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Speaker 1: there was that there was that kind of aspect that

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Speaker 1: made me start to wonder maybe I should when you

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Speaker 1: were curious, why is it happening that so few people

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Speaker 1: do it, but it has resonating with so many people

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Speaker 1: who don't hunt. And then on the side of that,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, I've I've only been hunting for

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Speaker 1: a few years. I mean, I guess you could say

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Speaker 1: I started in college, although I kind of wandered around

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Speaker 1: the Elk Woods a few times, not knowing anything about

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Speaker 1: what I was doing. I don't even think I played

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Speaker 1: the wind. It was just kind of like trampling truly

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Speaker 1: with the rifle. Sometimes it sometimes works. It didn't for

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Speaker 1: me unfortunately. Um. And then you know, when I would

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Speaker 1: I got interested in hunting because well, I think it's

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Speaker 1: always occupied kind of this nostalgic uh imagery in my head.

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Speaker 1: You When I was young, I read books and like

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Speaker 1: The Hatchet and you know, stories of survival, Western stuff,

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Speaker 1: trapping stuff. I loved. It's funny. I was just trying

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Speaker 1: to read The Hatchet to my kid, but he's not

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Speaker 1: quite there yet, not there. I just gave a Hatchet

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Speaker 1: plus the book The Hatchet to my nephew for Chris.

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Speaker 1: He's yeah, I'd read it. I read my six year

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Speaker 1: old right away. It's like talking about divorce and it's

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Speaker 1: just like shoot too high with eleven or you think

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Speaker 1: that's no, it's good, okay, but you know what the

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Speaker 1: hills divorce. I like, well, we're trying to read about

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Speaker 1: a kid getting lost and was not gonna explain like no, no, no, mom,

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Speaker 1: daddy's wild tangents. Um. But yeah, So when I when

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Speaker 1: I talk about, you know, as a new hunter, I

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Speaker 1: kind of feel like there's or maybe it's just simply

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Speaker 1: living near almost nobody hunts, you know, like an urban

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Speaker 1: Bay area, but people are genuinely interested in it. Whenever

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Speaker 1: I bring up the fact that I am a hunter, um.

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Speaker 1: And I found that listening to other people talk about

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Speaker 1: why they hunt with whatever audience they're speaking to versus um.

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Speaker 1: You know, some arguments I may use. There tends to

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Speaker 1: be different receptions sometimes, right. And so there is five

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Speaker 1: that I tested the study that I've always been interested

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Speaker 1: in or that I've kind of logged, and like, man,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that actually does anything right? And one

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Speaker 1: is hunting is tradition. Okay, that was the teaser. All right,

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Speaker 1: is this the main thing you work? On my dissertation.

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Speaker 1: But the hunting thing is a side project. It's a

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Speaker 1: passion project. Yes, okay, it's a passion project too. What

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Speaker 1: I don't even know the answer to this. I just

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Speaker 1: know you for the hunting thing. So you want so

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Speaker 1: just like what I do in my day to day life,

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Speaker 1: as I study this affect of bias between partisans and specifically,

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Speaker 1: so my lab has shown that, Okay, there is this

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Speaker 1: affective bias that exists between Democrats and Republicans. And how

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of advancing the ball down the field, um

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Speaker 1: is I'm wondering what happens to this level of bias

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Speaker 1: when people are under various cognitive states. No not, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about like psychological max get a lot more confident

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Speaker 1: about it. Uh yeah. I study a concept called group

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Speaker 1: threat as well as self threat and self affirmation. I

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Speaker 1: mean I don't want to get to like all right, So, um,

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Speaker 1: I'll just lay on an experiment for you. Right, so

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Speaker 1: let me stop you real quick the stuff you do

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Speaker 1: with hunting, because that was the teaser I wanted to give,

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Speaker 1: just make sure people didn't think they tuned into the

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Speaker 1: wrong program. I can see that, so you dick and

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Speaker 1: rail hunt but that's not the main thing you do. Know,

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Speaker 1: it's a side it's a passion project project. Yea, So

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Speaker 1: what a time consuming side project? Man? You know I

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Speaker 1: love spending my time on it. Okay, So now in

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Speaker 1: a nutshell, explain what you do do? So I study

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Speaker 1: they So my dissertation is on the influence of various

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Speaker 1: forms of cognitive threat on affective polarization. What's it? Hoggingtive threat?

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Speaker 1: Like you think it's something's gonna happen to you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the two that I study are self threat and

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Speaker 1: group threat. Self threat and a nutshell, uh cases you

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Speaker 1: know you're feeling bad about yourself in some particular domain.

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Speaker 1: And group threat is how you feel when when your

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Speaker 1: group is being negatively evaluated. So if I was like,

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Speaker 1: hunters are a bunch of that's group. That's if you

423
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 1: say to me you're a red n know, if I'm like,

424
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, you lack integrity in some way, you know,

425
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: like you're just you're a disloyal friend, Deanni, you know

426
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,959
Speaker 1: that's self threat? Really yeah, self threat? You know it's it's, uh,

427
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: you're internalizing some judgment on yourself with you um, and

428
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: I can run you through the dissertation, but it can

429
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,719
Speaker 1: get a bit walk and dance or just laying at

430
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: me a little bit. I'd love to you're all about it,

431
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 1: but it's in the interest of time. Okay. So when

432
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: a nutshell, when people experience self threat, they lash out

433
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: against political opponents in a totally unrelated domain. So so

434
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: I think it'd be interesting to talk about the dependent

435
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: measure that I'm using to measure affective bias is known.

436
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: It's an economic game known as the trust game. Have

437
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: you heard of it? All? Right, So there's a player

438
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: one and a player to right. Like, let's say you

439
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: and you are all right, your player one, your player too.

440
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: I say, I'm gonna give you ten dollars, right, you

441
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 1: can give some none or all. After you do that,

442
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take the amount you gave and I'm gonna

443
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: triple it. Now he will have the opportunity to give some,

444
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: none or all of that amount back to you. How

445
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: much you're gonna give ni for real? Sure? Yeah, I

446
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: have to like sit and think about five bucks five

447
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: right now, you gave me ten and we're together, I'd

448
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: be like, I'll give him five, yeah, but just guess

449
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: no reason whatsoever. Well, the interesting thing about the trust

450
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: game is so you have the opportunity to both make

451
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: more than ten dollars, right, Like, if you're really generous,

452
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: it's like, let's say you give ten, you know, and

453
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: you triple he has thirty. You can each make fifteen.

454
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: But you could just give this guy thirty bucks and

455
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: you could come away with zero, right, you know, Yanni,

456
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: he's a nice guy and you so you probably feel

457
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: comfortable laying yourself out there with the ten dollars. But

458
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: if you see some person who's like, okay, this player too.

459
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: You've never met him, but you're getting into like that.

460
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: Me and Yanni both know the rule, like you you

461
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: you present this to us, well, I feel like I would.

462
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: We would exchange a quick glance, realize we were onto something,

463
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: and I would give him all the money. Yes, and

464
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: this in the way that I'm doing it out and

465
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: not bringing two buddies together and having him play it. Right,

466
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: So you're taught me to do just coming down the road. Yes,

467
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: I never see him again. And this one's over the computer, right,

468
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: And there actually is no player too. We're only measuring

469
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: the participants as player win, but they have to make

470
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 1: judgments on how much money they're going to lay out,

471
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: and they only have a little bit of information about

472
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: player too to craft their judgments with. Right. And of

473
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: course we put in a party queue. Um, so it's

474
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: like age, race, annually, yearly income party and these are

475
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: questions that the participants themselves have, uh have filled out.

476
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: So it's not like inconceivable that we created a profile

477
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: for a player too. Yeah. So it's like it's a

478
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: gender studies professor on their way to yoga, right yeah. Yeah,

479
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: I mean we actually get a little bit more heavy

480
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: and and we're like forty one year old white male

481
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: Republican who makes allars here, you know that sort of thing.

482
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: Do you want to play with him? We're not like yeah,

483
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: we're not like absent minded professor from Portland. Uh well

484
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: not do you want to play with? How much money

485
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: are you gonna get? Right? Because if you're like, man,

486
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: I just don't trust this guy, You're not you know none,

487
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep it that box or like you

488
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: know you're going to you're gonna head your bets a

489
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: little bit. Um. And it's it's a tried and true

490
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: method for kind of demonstrating the biases that people have,

491
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: you know, when you're just flipping one que you can

492
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: literally see how much more people are willing to give to,

493
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a co part is in this party?

494
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: Can I guess? Can I guess that people will tend

495
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: to give more to someone who they're on the same team?

496
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: Well of course, yeah, i'd game that stuff too. Yeah,

497
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: but you can think about it if beat it for sure,

498
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: But people don't write yeah, I feel like I wouldn't

499
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: agree with that lady on anything, but I would give

500
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: her some of the money and she might not give

501
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: it back, you know. All right, So that's what you

502
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: mean like to do. So that's that's the measure I

503
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: used for bias and I and so remember like it's

504
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: it's latent in our society, like there just is affective

505
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: bias at all times. People are always preferencing the in

506
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: party against the out party. So usually you know in

507
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: social science, if or oftentimes in social science, when you're

508
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: trying to measure whether or not there's some phenomenon occurring,

509
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, if I show people this picture,

510
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: do they do some uh consequential action? Why? Right? And

511
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: a little if I show them a will they do

512
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: be And it's against like in a control group, or

513
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: you're not showing them a um, you're you're usually measuring

514
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: any effect against null, like nothing happening versus something happening.

515
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: But because we are a biased uh community right now,

516
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: there already is this affective bias when I'm studying the

517
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: impact of threat and I'm talking about self threat increase

518
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: his affective bias against party opponents. I'm talking about already

519
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: like it's it's an increase in bias over and already

520
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: biased um control group, right, which I think is remarkable

521
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: that we can like we always think, um, it's as

522
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: bad as it can get the political rhetoric, but we

523
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: seem like incapable of of you know, not being able

524
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: to or we we seem like we can quickly kind

525
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: of turn up how much more angry will get, you know,

526
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: feel bad about myself, I'm gonna lash out against this

527
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: party opponent. And I also study like group threat, like

528
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: what happens when people are you know, when the credible

529
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: sources passing judgment on Republicans or Democrats and that sort

530
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: of thing. Um. And then I also have a study.

531
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: My third and final study of the dissertation is a

532
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: real world examination of whether or not electoral loss constitutes

533
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: group threat. So we're looking at Democrats versus Republicans responses

534
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: to the presidential election. I haven't actually analyzed the data

535
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: for that yet, so I can't say whether that's the case,

536
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: but that's what I do on my day to day ah,

537
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: my day to day pah study, I guess. Yeah. This

538
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: is a tricky cycle, though, because the because the party

539
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: is so redefined. The Republican Party just got so redefined. Yeah,

540
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: and you have so you have a lot of people

541
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 1: who are like just discovering the Republican Party under its

542
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: new form and excited about it, and a lot of

543
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: people who have been Republicans for a long time who

544
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: are a little apprehensive about what the party's up to

545
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: be tricky, and you've got Democrats who are pissed about

546
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: the primaries on both sides. Um, so yeah, it is tricky.

547
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: I agree with you there for sure. All right. So

548
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: for the hunt and stuff, Yeah, so you knew about

549
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: you isolated five arguments that dudes like me give Yes,

550
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: I think you Steve get particularly good ones. Um, but

551
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, especially in like White Tail Country. Well, can

552
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: we get back that because you're when you started this

553
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: when you're laying it out, you were saying that arguments

554
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: that guys like we give not ones that you give

555
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: as kind of a new hunter, right, You're saying the

556
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: ones that are on the out in the ether. I

557
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: think I've presented that wrong because I don't want to

558
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: say I've got this golden argument everyone should be making.

559
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: But no, you just noticed that there was a difference

560
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: in the reaction. Maybe it's even like the the you know,

561
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: variety of arguments I give. Maybe I noticed that, like

562
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: some people are responding to some better than that. Did

563
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: you set out to be like I'm going to make

564
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: a list of five or did you look and say, like,

565
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,719
Speaker 1: here's what's out there. Oh wow, it's five the ladder

566
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: um and and some of it, you know, because it's

567
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: not my my usual area of expertise. I don't have

568
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: this like literature review that I'm able to draw on,

569
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: so some of it was just kind of like my

570
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: best judgment. Right. So I tend to see a lot

571
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: of uh, if we want to get into the five,

572
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: I tend to see a lot of hunting as tradition.

573
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely get into the five. Yeah, so hunting is tradition,

574
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, we hear a lot about like, Okay, my

575
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: family has been hunting for generations, like a traditional use

576
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: in the woods, and like it's our American heritage. What

577
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: about how it's like, um, like about how humans hunted

578
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: for so long? That is that role in the tradition too?

579
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: It does, But I didn't that's not how I operationalized

580
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: tradition for this particular experiment. I didn't get into you

581
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: look more like family level in each level, um, which

582
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: and I see a lot of marketing appeals around that certainly,

583
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: and I well, I have my own it's used very

584
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: heavily marketing And that's why what what That's why I

585
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: was kind of surprised. What what you found about that?

586
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: It surprised me a teeny bit. Yeah. Um, some of

587
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: the other things you found in surprised me at all,

588
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: but that one surprised me a little bit, just based

589
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: on the fact that some people think it's such a

590
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: good idea to approach it that way. Yeah, I mean

591
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: there's caveats and like, how the hell can you hunt

592
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: and kill a deer be like well my family, Yeah, yeah,

593
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: it's a well let's talk about the results after, I

594
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: guess because there are caveats, right, So, uh, first this

595
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: tradition the second one one? Did I hear a ton

596
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: especially in white tailed country? It's like, why do you hunt?

597
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: Like hunting is important to control game populations full stop?

598
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: Like I hear this one. This is the one I

599
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: hear the most that has a zero elaboration on it,

600
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: game population full stop me. And they don't say anything else, right, Yeah,

601
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: and that that's like I gotta control game populations, Like man,

602
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: I can think of plenty of species that are worthwhile

603
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: of hunting and it's not necessary that we knocked down

604
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: their numbers, right, Like, It's it's just a fundamentally fundamentally

605
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: bad argument, I think, because yeah, I've always had it

606
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: because it like implies that if you don't need to

607
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: knock down a population you know that's overpopulated, that somehow

608
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: hunting isn't viable or worthwhile. Yeah, that's the thing when

609
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 1: that comes up. The thing I always point out is, uh,

610
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: when people say like, oh, they're overpopulated, I always point out,

611
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: but like there's someone making an estimation here based on

612
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: based on something. So when someone says deer overpopulated, I'd

613
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: be like, you know what, the guys I know that

614
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: are hunting deer in that area don't feel that way.

615
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: But I know that the automobile ensures in the area

616
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: is certainly feel that way because they're paying out for

617
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: a lot of deer car collisions. I know there's agricultural

618
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: interests to definitely feel that way. Home gardeners, home gardeners

619
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: feeah or not. Like fishing game, I only day um

620
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: last year I saw. So that's the thing. I always that,

621
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: that's the thing. I've always had a hard time with nothing.

622
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: I have a hard time understanding it because you can say,

623
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: like right now, there's many people who are saying snow

624
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: geese are overpopulated. One might say, by what measure are

625
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: they overpopulated? And then the ants would be by the

626
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: measure of the carrying capacity of certain Arctic habitats where

627
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: other birds have traditionally nested. By that measure, which affects

628
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: you none. One might say snow geese are overpopulated. The

629
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: guy hunting snow geese in eastern Montana might wish there

630
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: was even more snow geese, or the same way like

631
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: people are I say carp are overpopulated, but then they

632
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: complain on the carp shooting sucks. You think they'd go

633
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: out and be like, we had a great night, we

634
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: couldn't find any carp So it's really tricky. Yeah. I

635
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: think the concept of overpopulation is you bring up a

636
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: lot of good points there, but like, uh, but it

637
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: also implies this sense of like, Okay, whatever metric i'm

638
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: gonna use. You tell me something's overpopulated. Whatever metric i'm

639
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: gonna use, that's the benchmark i'm gonna use for weather

640
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: or not. I think huntings because people know, people say

641
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: it all the time without probably thinking about to the

642
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: level we just discussed it. I grew up hearing that

643
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: all the time. You need to hunt them or they

644
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: become overpopulistic. We've all heard it, even though and it's

645
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: just something you hear, and it's only later after you

646
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: like think about these issues look at them all the time,

647
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: you'd be like overpopulated about what measure by the measure

648
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: of the man raising sweet corn? There are a lot

649
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: of raccoons, but other people who go decades about laying

650
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: eyes on a raccoon not yea, So alright, there's number two. Yeah.

651
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: I mean we hear about it. We hear about it

652
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: all the time, and Frankly, I was like, well, I

653
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: certainly have an assumption about how I think this will

654
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: impact or not impact attitude stores hunting. But you know,

655
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: it's it's a superimental method, like maybe I'm wrong. Let's

656
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: tell The third one was one that we hear all

657
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: the time hunting for food consumption, where we just emphasize

658
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 1: the like organic, clean nature of the food that we're

659
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: harvesting to expected to expected it to work. I don't

660
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: think any of us are surprised about that it's used

661
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: quite heavily in hunting media. I think it's a good thing.

662
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense, but I just felt

663
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: like I had to include it. Yeah, it's used more

664
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: and more. Like ten years ago, people weren't talking about

665
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like a new No, they weren't tough body.

666
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: But it's changed a lot. You know, there's a you know,

667
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: you know the historian Randa Williams, Yeah, he's looked at

668
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: that a lot. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's like, you know,

669
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: in some a lot of media outlets have tried to

670
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: tie it into like this new type of hunter, you know,

671
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: like what what describes the it's the whole new like

672
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: the new hunter thing. It's always like people pushing like

673
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: the new hunter is always people who uh I will

674
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: be like, you know, like the conscientious Yeah, unlike all

675
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: of you I grew up, who all the depraved individuals

676
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: that I grew up those guys kind, you know, the

677
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: new kind like me, we only just started care. They

678
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: only just started eating the stuff they killed too. Oh yeah.

679
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: But it's like it's like the same kind of people,

680
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: you know. It's like when people found out you know,

681
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: like uh, like how bacon became fashionable in the media

682
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: for a long time. Oh bacon, So it's like yeah,

683
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: no ship, I mean, you know, my grandpa or whatever.

684
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: You know, people have been eating bacon since the beginning

685
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: of time. But also like you discover it and you

686
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: can't just have it be that you discover in the

687
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: way that it's just like people eating like people. There's

688
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: certain segments in the American population never like discovered bacon.

689
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 1: It's been eating like religiously consuming bacon. But then there's

690
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: like this new subset finds out about it and they

691
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 1: want to act like their bacon trip is a way

692
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: different than everyone else. It's like they're bacon trip is

693
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 1: more inspired and like means more than the bacon trip

694
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: that the rest of the has been on forever, Like

695
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, you think you'd like bacon. I really

696
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: like bacon. You don't like bacon shirt? Yeah, you know, no,

697
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: I mean I totally agree. I mean that that gets me.

698
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: I think I heard, uh some radio forum where they

699
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: had representatives from They got someone from like a like

700
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: a professional kitchen to give their viewpoints on cooking, and

701
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: then they were like, oh, well, we gotta find someone

702
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: from the country, and they got someone from the country

703
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: to give their perspective on hunting. And they're like, but

704
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: you know, there seems to be a rise and like

705
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: really conscientious like ego hunters. He's like, yeah, that's like

706
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: how we've all like, I don't understand what you're trying

707
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: to Yeah. So um anyways, yeah, so so food had

708
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: to be included. And then there were two that I

709
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 1: hear among certain populations. I mean, you guys, you guys

710
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: certainly have talked about this, but there are two kind

711
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: of pro hunting perspectives that I was particularly interested in.

712
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: In addition to testing whether like tradition, I was interested

713
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: in seeing if it worked or not hunting it hunting

714
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: his population control. I was like, I'm not sure if

715
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: it works, but I'll included food. I had to include it.

716
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: But then the regulatory structure and the revenue around hunting.

717
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: I was interested in whether these arguments would change non

718
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: hunters attitudes towards hunting, because when you I think a

719
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: lot of non hunters, like urban non hunters, the majority

720
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: of America, I think when you bring up hunting, a

721
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: lot of them. Honestly, in my own conversations, I really

722
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: think it's like, well, I guess just like it during

723
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: the fall. It's tradition that you just like head into

724
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: the woods with a gun, like just no concept that

725
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: it's regulated whatsoever. And when I started talking about state

726
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: wildlife agencies and uh, you know, population monitoring and then

727
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: based on that data allocating tags and season length, et cetera,

728
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: and carrying capacity YadA, YadA, YadA, and how the decisions

729
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: are made and what the steps you have to go

730
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: through the hunt, Uh, you know it, it completely opens

731
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: up a new world for people. Oh my god, I

732
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: had no idea that, Oh I had. I've had dinner

733
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: with many many people when I was living in New

734
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: York who had no idea. They thought it just they

735
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: thought honestly, you just it was just like you go

736
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: in the woods, bring a gun, and you just shoot

737
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: what you see, and no idea that there was like

738
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: a Bysantine network of regulatory measures employees and frankly, like,

739
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: on the one hand, I'm like, wow, that's a bummer

740
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,479
Speaker 1: that that's how they're viewing hunting. But on the other hand,

741
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: let's say someone who thinks that way has a negative

742
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: perception of hunting. It's like, I can't be that mad

743
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: at him, Like, yeah, I wish they knew more. But

744
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: it's like, if they honestly think hunting is just like

745
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: showing up in the woods and shooting the first thing

746
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: that runs across me, it's like, all right, well, I

747
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: can see how they may have come to that concluded,

748
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: like certainly they're wrong, but but yeah, so I was.

749
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: I wondered what the effect of of laying out um

750
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: kind of in the simplest possible way, the regulatory structure

751
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: of kind of state management would do to attitude starts hunting.

752
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: And then the last concept was the revenue generated by hunting.

753
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: And this I didn't use the like full economic impact analysis.

754
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: It looks at outdoor you know, sportsman jobs and things

755
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: like that. I was just looking at the sales from

756
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: hunting licenses, tags and stamps as well as the Pittman

757
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: Roberts Enact and kind of that cyclical form of revenue structure. Right,

758
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: So these so the single largest source of revenue for

759
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: state wildlife agencies is is hunting, right, It's a hunting licenses,

760
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: tags and stamps to the tune of and this is

761
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: a conservative estimate from a couple of years ago, eight

762
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: million dollars annually their operating So so yet fifty we

763
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: have fifty states. Obviously we have fifty state fish and

764
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: wildlife agencies. They have different names, but you know, you

765
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: can't like fishing, game, wildlife and parks wildlife, you know,

766
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: associating not never association, but wildlife, Department of Natural Resources,

767
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: all these different names. We get one for each state.

768
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: So across the country, those departments derive sixty of their

769
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: funding from um coming from hunting related sources. Not just

770
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: like where the state government imposes taxes on the population

771
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 1: and takes that tax revenue and distributes it around these

772
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 1: different agencies. That's not how they're getting their money. Yeah,

773
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's it's kind of staggering. The figures really,

774
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: but they're Yeah, they're generating most of their funding from tags, stamps,

775
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: and licenses, right, and they use that money to do

776
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: wildlife research, habitat improvement, access enhancement, enforcement of existing game laws.

777
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: They do a lot of non game work. So this

778
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: is they don't just like your Department Officient Game despite

779
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: the name, doesn't just work on game. It works on

780
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: non game species. If someone, you know, if there's a

781
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: problem with a great horned owl, that's as much that

782
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: person's jurisdiction as any other animals. So it's it's they

783
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: do an enormous amount of work with this money. Yeah,

784
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: And I think what's what I like about the structure

785
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: so much is when you add in the Pitman Robertson Act, Right,

786
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: So they have all this money to break that down

787
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: to a billion dollars from the state level licenses, tags,

788
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: and stamps. Seven, the Federal Aid and Wildlife Restoration Act

789
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: gets put on the books, more commonly known as a

790
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: Pitman Robertson Act, and this creates an excise tax on

791
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: hunting equipment, right, So it's only going to impact hunters

792
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: if you're purchasing hunting equipment ten to twelve percent of

793
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: that depending on what you buy is going to get

794
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: put in this federal fund, like like very select, a

795
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: very select list of items. Yes, firearms, ammunition. It doesn't

796
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: straight too far into like like if you're not hunting,

797
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: you're probably not. And there's a similar thing with fishing,

798
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: which is very specific fishing product products, rods, reels, line boarding, Johnson. Yeah,

799
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: a great name myself back and chuckling right there. Um. Yeah,

800
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: but this Pittock Robertson Act. You you have a federal

801
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: fund that's uh, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars annually, right,

802
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,919
Speaker 1: let's call it like two to four hundred million dollars um.

803
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: And the way that it works is your state can

804
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: apply for some of that federal fund, but you have

805
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: to adhere to several stipulations. One, and this is the

806
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: most exciting one for me, is all that money that

807
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: you generated from licenses, tags and stamps has to be

808
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: used by your state wildlife agency, you know, whether it's

809
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: Department of Phishing, Game or whatever it is. It would

810
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: totally get it would totally get spread around the whole state. Um.

811
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: So it's like, well, if you want some of this

812
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: federal money, you know you can use it uh in

813
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: many ways that you want to, but it has to

814
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: stay within the domain of Department of ficiing game. Also

815
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: the specific project that you're requested, so that's the state money,

816
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: like you have to use that state money on wildlife.

817
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: For the federal money that they're applying for, it has

818
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, so

819
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: it can't be like just some totally unrelated, non you know,

820
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: non fish and wildlife or habitat related project, so it

821
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: has to be approved. And then lastly, just to round

822
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: out this, I really like this from a regulatory standpoint,

823
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: to round it all out, if you don't use that

824
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: money that you've been allocated by the federal government in

825
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: two years, it goes to the migratory bird what is

826
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: my Migratory Bird Conservation Act. Yeah, And so it's it's

827
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: just a it's just a nicely functioning piece of regulation.

828
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: It was so much bad regulation out there. It's a

829
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: it's really nice to see. Oh yeah, the story I

830
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: will not get into it now, but the story of

831
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: how that that suite of legislation sort of came to pass,

832
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: how quickly it went through, how much support it had

833
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: in such dire times, yeah, the Affordable Care Act, I

834
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: think was it took thirteen months. The Deformal Care Act

835
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: took thirteen months to make its way through. I think

836
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: that that, and and during the Great Depression made its

837
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: way through an eighties some days. I mean, Affordable Care

838
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: Act really took over a century if you think about it.

839
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, and people like the manufacturers who are

840
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: gonna probably lose sales because the increase in prices of

841
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: their goods supported it. The people who were going to

842
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: be paying it, hunters supported it overwhelmingly. And I'll tell

843
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: you something. Nineteen thirty seven, there wasn't shipped to hunt.

844
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: People have a short memory where they think that like

845
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: everything's gotten like progressively shittier. There wasn't like you'd have

846
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: a whole there in seven you had states that you

847
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: had states. There was no Turkey and deer season. Yeah,

848
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: we were out of game, man, we were out of game.

849
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: And people were like, but from that moment of despair

850
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: came this sort of like great piece of legislation. So

851
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: that you've run through all five. Now I want to

852
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: just do something real quick. Just people who who are

853
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: our friends out there, who don't who don't don't follow

854
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: things real close. Greg tested five arguments that you can

855
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: lay on a non hunter when you jump in here,

856
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: there's a six which control group, the control group that

857
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: you know, control group, you know, so we can compare

858
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: to a non hunting baseline. They just got a message

859
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: about like household appliances. Oh right, because it has no

860
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 1: impact on hunting whatsoever. You have to have a control

861
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 1: group otherwise it's like, how do we feel about hunting

862
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 1: when you consider the atretes of this toaster? Like look

863
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: at this sponge? So bad hunting again? Yeah, so it

864
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: took five arguments that folks like to get. Correct me

865
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: from all five arguments that you might give word to

866
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: come to you and be like, you're such an asshole.

867
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: How could you shoot a deer? You might say, hey, man,

868
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: my family is always hunted. You might say that's what

869
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: I eat. You might say, listen me, shooting a deer

870
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: brings a lot of money to wildlife conservation. You might say,

871
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: it's not like I'm just randomly going and shooting a deer.

872
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: I mean, biologist have determined how many deer are out there,

873
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: what the surplus is, what we're gonna wind up having. Anyways,

874
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: and they set this whole season, and there's ten days

875
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: and we only have tempercent success rates. And you might say, well, hey,

876
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: if I don't shoot them, they're coming for you, for you,

877
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: and they're gonna beat your door down and kill you

878
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: with their deer hoofs, and then disease is gonna kill

879
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: and then disease is gonna kill them all. Anyway, we

880
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: won't have any So now which of these are gold,

881
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: which of these are's gold? And which of these are garbage?

882
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: But we got a series of nonresult like stuff that

883
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: didn't work and stuff that did work, And I think

884
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: they are interesting consequences for hunting as tradition. What I'm

885
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: going to tradition argue, Yeah, me saying, hey man, my

886
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: dad hunting didn't do anything not hunters do not care

887
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: about it. I don't kind of makes sense, right. It's like, well,

888
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: just because you guys been doing it for a long

889
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: time doesn't make it worthwhile. Right. When I put that too,

890
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: I put something similar to a I put something similar

891
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: to an animal to an animal rights activist. I was

892
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: actually interviewing an animal ethicist and I put that to him,

893
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: and he his his well rehearsed takedown of that line

894
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: was We've always done everything. I mean, humans have always raped,

895
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: humans have always had war. So just because we've been

896
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: doing something doesn't mean that that's good. Yeah. I agree

897
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: with that assessment. Yeah, because I proceeded then rip holes

898
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: an ash. But anyways, he had a well rehearsed reply

899
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: to that, you know, that was fundamentally compelling in a

900
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: short package, such as he would get in a conversation,

901
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: not fundamentally compelling. Now, as part of a broader tapestry,

902
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: of course, it could become interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I will

903
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: give the caveat that. When we talk about what makes

904
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: hunting resonates so well with the American pablic there are historical, sociological,

905
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: lots of perspectives you can take that you would need

906
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: to get a holistic picture right, And this first step

907
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 1: by me was strictly isolating elements of various people weren't

908
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: buying it and what worked and what didn't in this

909
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: in this very isolated environment. Um. Yeah, So now why

910
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: do you think that is that you take it because

911
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: it's like because of what I'm saying, because like, well

912
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: that's just the fact that you did it doesn't make

913
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: it right. Yeah, I just yeah, I don't want to

914
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: get I don't really want to get into why because

915
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: the data don't speak to that. It just doesn't work.

916
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: But but my assumptions are exactly what you're saying. Just

917
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: because you've died for a long time doesn't make it

918
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: an inherently good thing. Humans have been doing bad things

919
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: for a long time, They've been doing good things for

920
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: a long time, but the length has has no bearing

921
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: on it. Right, how big was the group? Uh? The

922
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: sample of six people? Did anybody be like, oh, okay,

923
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: well did anybody I'm sure there's like one one is

924
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 1: one of two people in that condition and who are like, yeah,

925
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: I feel more positive forwards tonic, But statistically no, it

926
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: was statically, which is the important part. That's because it

927
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: can't be binary. Right, It's not like works don't work.

928
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 1: It's worked on Steve. Yeah. But I'm saying like, okay,

929
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 1: so whatever the sample size, I mean, like, how much

930
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: didn't it work? Like it really doesn't work. Well, then

931
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: you get into like a discussion of what significance values means,

932
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: and that you get into mathom Okay, what is insignificant?

933
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, the conventional level of significance

934
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: numerically is a key value of less than point zero five,

935
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: which I guess has popularly been described as the relationship

936
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: you found has less than a five percent chance of

937
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: having happened just by coincidence, which I'm sure there's mathematicians

938
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: and statisticians out there who are just losing it at

939
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: the radio. But but listen, have them send their have

940
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: them in their hatred my way way. These guys are

941
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: deferred to meet then, because I'm putting you in an

942
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: awkward position. I just did not meet. It didn't meet

943
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: point of five, it didn't meet point one. I mean,

944
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: it didn't meet the conventional levels and you and I

945
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: want to help you out here because I feel bad

946
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: because like your whole training right, Like I'm I'm asking

947
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,280
Speaker 1: you to do things that fall way outside your comfort

948
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: zone and way outside your training. And I find that

949
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: when I'm talking to researchers, you know, my brother's research

950
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: and I'm time of research, and I'm like, what did

951
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: your hope would happen? It's like, you can't happen. They're like,

952
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? I'm like, you know right,

953
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: so yes, I'm pressing you too. I'm pressing Greg our guest.

954
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm pressing him to to to to to, you know,

955
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: put a shine on some things that didn't fall outside

956
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 1: so well. I mean I can admit to like I

957
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: certainly had assumptions about what would wouldn't work right, and

958
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: and hope is an interesting word. I didn't hope some

959
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: would work and some wouldn't. But you know, I had

960
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: my own guesses as were like I bet, I bet

961
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: this one turns out right. But you know, if you

962
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,439
Speaker 1: use a scientific method, it should tell you the truth.

963
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: And it's not doing well, Yeah, like, oh, I got

964
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: an idea, I'm gonna make this tradition one work. In

965
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,439
Speaker 1: that way, it's probably almost good to be a little

966
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: bit aware of your biases because then you can help

967
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: make sure they're not running away with you. It's good

968
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: scientific practice. Okay, so um, so you're not but you're

969
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 1: not gonna spec You don't want to speculate just when

970
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: you say, like, why significant difference in people's attitudes towards

971
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: hunting from time one to time too? So the population.

972
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,919
Speaker 1: I think during time one, I sampled about a thousand people.

973
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 1: I got their attitudes towards hunting using kind of conventional

974
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 1: survey questions. I recontacted six hundred a couple of weeks

975
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: later randomly assigned them to one of the six conditions

976
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: the five perspectives in the control group, and then use

977
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: the same question to reassess their views towards hunting. So

978
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: it's within subject and that you can compare this person's uh,

979
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: you know, these individuals answers at time to versus time one.

980
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: It's see within the subject whether there was any change, right,

981
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: and so for tradition, there was no statistically significant change.

982
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 1: Is dead or dad? That's what put on your report.

983
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it did nothing happen about it didn't go

984
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: the other way, and they didn't get angry about hunting.

985
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: It just you know, because we would have picked that

986
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: up too, oh like because you could have measured and

987
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: could measure. Yeah, they would be interesting. It doesn't back

988
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't backfire. It just does nothing, doesn't ship. Just

989
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: keep your mouth shut. Well, it's a little bit of

990
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: really to talk about this, but it's like, uh, I

991
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: think using the tradition argument is good in certain contexts. Right,

992
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: we're talking about perceptions of hunting from non hunters. If

993
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: you're b h A you know, and you're your r

994
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: m EF and that he's back anglers Rocky Mountain Foundation

995
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: and you're trying to like generate donations or membership. Hell yeah,

996
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: to talk about tradition like that might resonate. It was

997
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: a number of conservation organizations, some which I'm involved in

998
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: who when aquing internally. Yeah, for marketing, they push it

999
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: very heavy because people that's because people, because people within

1000
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: the hunting world do care so much about that. I've

1001
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: talked about this with with Landed. I mean, I'm one

1002
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: of those hunters. He responds to it, you know, like, yeah,

1003
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: it works on me, But I'm not a non hunter.

1004
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: And the reason that I'm interested in not hunters. And

1005
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: so it's like if we are going to continue hunting

1006
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: and keep enjoying kind of the model we have in

1007
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: front of us, like, we are absolutely going to have

1008
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: to rely on non hunters. And it's really nice that

1009
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: they generally have a positive view of hunting right now,

1010
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: but but we've constantly got to be vigilant. That's why

1011
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 1: I'm always do you bring up my favorite subject are

1012
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 1: Like I've had someone recently who's like, dude, the antis

1013
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: can kick rocks. I'm like, that's a ludicrous position. Rocks

1014
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: They said, kick rocks. Yeah, Uh, I means go pick mushroom.

1015
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: I get what it means, but it's like it's like

1016
00:52:54,680 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: so old timing, pretty old, just like, yeah, I just

1017
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: now have our our privilege to hunt. Is it really

1018
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: at the whim of non hunters? Yeah, and that's my

1019
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: favorite subject. But that didn't work. But I'm not saying

1020
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 1: it's a bad argument to use with hunters. It resonates

1021
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: with me, you know, for sure, but I'm amongst non

1022
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: hunters in my sample. It didn't work. The next one

1023
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: population control. You know, we got a hunt. You know,

1024
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: wheny many hunters, when when polled, say that hunting is

1025
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: important because it controls game populations, didn't do anything that

1026
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: surprised me a little bit in that es much as

1027
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: we just talked about it. Because this, I think when

1028
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 1: people most people in the country living white tailed deer

1029
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: country most by far white tails account for like the

1030
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: most main hours of hunting time, right. Um, So I

1031
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 1: think when people say like game hunting, a lot of

1032
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: people are automatically jumping to a deer hunting Oh yeah,

1033
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: I think most people when you people do live in

1034
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: fear and deer heavy areas. It's a thing where you're

1035
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: like driving along night and you're hoping that you don't

1036
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 1: hit a deer, and everybody over over time in these areas,

1037
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: which is like the majority of the country, you were

1038
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: someone and you're very close to hits a deer, right,

1039
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: It's a thing. I'm surprised that people don't. It doesn't

1040
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: mean more to people assuming that what they're picturing when

1041
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: they hear the word game is deer, and what they're

1042
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: picturing when they hear the word over population is you

1043
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: hitting one of those deer with your car. I think

1044
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: it's a I think it's a valid perspective to have,

1045
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 1: and I mean, but it just doesn't It doesn't measure

1046
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 1: even looking at the sample like isolating to a white

1047
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: tail country, which is which it's difficult honestly, if you're thinking,

1048
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna do this by states, if you like,

1049
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 1: where am I going to draw the line? Really and frankly,

1050
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot of If I run into people who

1051
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: don't hunt in the West, they're still thinking eastern white

1052
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: tail like tree stand white. If you pull heavy drinkers

1053
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: in rural Midwestern areas who are driving people who are

1054
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: driving home one two in the morning, I think you

1055
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: would are drinking gardeners in the Midwest. But yeah, I agree,

1056
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: And and this gets back to my last point, which

1057
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, there are definitely populations out there for

1058
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: whom these arguments rest, you know, but this is a

1059
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: you know, kind of a wide sample. Um. Yeah, yeah,

1060
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: So yeah my point. I thought that, like I would

1061
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: have thought that that would have that that those things

1062
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 1: that have just been basically you're asking people about their

1063
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: feelings about white tailed deer and they would have answered

1064
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,919
Speaker 1: based on their likelihood of crashing in the one. Yeah,

1065
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: I mean that might be just a reflection where I

1066
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: grew up, where hitting deer was like a daily part

1067
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: of light. Yeah. Man, I it's a yeah. You know.

1068
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure about that one. Frankly, like I didn't.

1069
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: I didn't think it would work. But when I was

1070
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: actually doing the kind of geographical controlling that I'm talking about,

1071
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: I was like, I bet it works in the Midwest,

1072
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 1: right And I couldn't find it. Um, But you know,

1073
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 1: who knows, at least for our sample. It didn't change

1074
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 1: attitude storres hunting. It didn't make negative but it was

1075
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: just a flat like tradition. Another question ahead. I was

1076
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: just gonna say, can you explain what it sounds like

1077
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 1: when someone's attitude about hunting changed in this when you

1078
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: asked the question the second time, like what was the

1079
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: first answer? Then what was the second answer? Um, Well,

1080
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: so I'll give the I guess I'll give the structure

1081
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: of the experiment. So during time one, in addition to

1082
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: like several demographic questions, we asked how do you feel

1083
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: about hunting in the United States? And there was a

1084
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 1: sliding scale from one to seven, from like really support

1085
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: to like really oppose, and you could just pick a

1086
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: numerical value between one and seven. Uh. And then it's

1087
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: time two. You were exposed to one of six arguments.

1088
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: And this is actually interesting because you guys have seen

1089
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: them their animations instead of like they're not people aren't

1090
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: reading about this, they're seeing animations. And the reason that

1091
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,320
Speaker 1: I did animations was, let's say you get the population

1092
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: control argument, which is an inherently short argument, right. I

1093
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: think the clip itself was like fifteen seconds, and it's

1094
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: something to the effect of, like many hunters, when pulled,

1095
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 1: say that hunting is important because it's necessary to control

1096
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 1: for game populations. And then the clip kind of ends. Right,

1097
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: But if we're talking about Pittman Robertson, and we're talking

1098
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: about state wildlife agencies like those are inherently longer arguments.

1099
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: And so I thought, if this is gonna be text,

1100
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna show people text passages. What we're gonna do

1101
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 1: is we're gonna have people's eyes glaze over. If you're

1102
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: Honey and you're reading about the Federal Aid and Wildlife

1103
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: Restoration Act, you're gonna be like, this is the worst

1104
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: experiment I've ever did. Then you're more like studying people

1105
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: reading conferdention skills, you know. And so I thought, how

1106
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: can I package these different length arguments in ways that

1107
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: will still be like standardized in terms of digestibility. And

1108
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: so I thought, oh, I'll make some animations. I have

1109
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: a buddy who's an animator, and so that's why i've

1110
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: kind of and they're really like clean cut and dry animations.

1111
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: They're not sort of meant to there's not like a

1112
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: b roll and look pretty. I mean, they're like they're straightforward.

1113
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: I mean it's for scientific purposes right there. Straightforward. They're clean,

1114
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: they're they're made to be there's like no no, I

1115
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: mean you know when you get right. They're not they're

1116
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: not trying to sell anything. Um. I guess you could

1117
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: make the argument that when you get into making something

1118
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: like an animation, you're going to have some kind of

1119
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: implicit bias. But I did my best as a scientist

1120
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: to make them as objective as possible and just reflect

1121
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: the text passages. I wanted them to reflect in the

1122
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: simil responssible way. Um. And then after they watched this, right,

1123
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: and remember it's been like two weeks since I asked

1124
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: him the first time, they get the same question, how

1125
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: do you feel about hunting the United States? From the

1126
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: one to seven scale? And so you can see like

1127
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: if they answered you know three, you know, slightly opposed,

1128
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: and now they answer five, that's an increase of two, right,

1129
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: and and how much they you know they have they

1130
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: are now they feel statistically different about hunting than they

1131
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: did at time one. And the reason we have the

1132
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: control group is because you know, something could have happened

1133
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: in the interim. You could have had Cecil, the lion happened,

1134
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: you know, one week after I asked him, And then

1135
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: it's like Cecil, Yeah, whomever the lion could have happened

1136
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: in the middle, and yeah, you know, you could have

1137
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: had some outside influence that is accountable for for whatever,

1138
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: ah kind of relationship you're finding, which is which of

1139
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: course the importance of the control group. So that's so

1140
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: that's generally what it looked like. Um so yeah, tradition,

1141
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: population control, just flat food, like we all expect. Statistically significant,

1142
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: I think it has I had that. I think it

1143
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 1: had the largest coefficient as well, and that it was

1144
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: the most impactful argument, which doesn't surprise me. I mean,

1145
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: I think we've talked about it kind of ad nauseum.

1146
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: So it's not like terribly interesting to me. But people

1147
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: generally are non hunters generally respond favorably to hunters talking

1148
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: about you know, going out and sustainably harvesting food and

1149
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: it's organic and you don't have to rely on factory

1150
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: ranching or farming, and you know, people are generally amountable

1151
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: to I think people too, are are generally kind of pragmatic, man.

1152
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: I mean, people don't like ship to go to waste.

1153
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: I think that that when you explain to them it

1154
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: does go a waste. In fact, it's it's it's good.

1155
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: It feels good to them, it feels better. Like I

1156
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: think there's this impression it's just like, uh, oh, you're

1157
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: like cutting their head off and you hang out a wall,

1158
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 1: and then I think rods in the ditch. I mean,

1159
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: when you explain you know, actually that's that's illegal, and

1160
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: people you know go to jail and lose are hunting

1161
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: rights for doing ship like that. I think sometimes people

1162
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: feel like they feel sort of relaxed about the issue

1163
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: knowing that that's the case. Well, I didn't talk about

1164
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 1: like game use regulations are like waste or anything like that.

1165
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: It was it was more about you know, many hunters

1166
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: when their hunting talk about how they're you know, they'd

1167
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: like to be able to come home give food to

1168
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: their family, and that they describe me recognizable terms such

1169
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: as like you know, sustainable, organic, free range, and they

1170
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:25,959
Speaker 1: don't have to go to the grocery store any factor

1171
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: be produced, uh, you know, very straightforward. And again a

1172
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: lot of this is uh just you know, an artifact

1173
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: of me running an experiment, right Like I wanted to

1174
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 1: be able to isolate it. And if I joined that

1175
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: argument with the argument you're making about game waste laws,

1176
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 1: then it's like wow, well which is it? Um? Yeah,

1177
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: And and so that one worked. You know, I think

1178
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: it's a definitely a great tactic to use UM with

1179
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: with non hunters, and I think it's totally valid to

1180
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: it's not these Remember these aren't just like marketing strategies.

1181
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them have validity, and certainly

1182
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: sustainably harvesting your own food UH is valid um. Now,

1183
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: the most interesting result in the whole experiment to me

1184
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 1: was the regulatory structure, so simply explaining the fact that

1185
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: hunting is regulated by state Fish and Wildlife commissions and

1186
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: that they have wildlife biologists whose job it is is

1187
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: to monitor populations and then make decisions about what that

1188
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: entails for the hunting season. So you know, theoretically, you

1189
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: could have a population that is so low that they

1190
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: determine eight, we're not gonna hunt, are so high that

1191
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna be like, hey, these are over the counter tags.

1192
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: Were in the middle where it's like, Okay, we're gonna

1193
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: do a lot of you know, we're gonna do a

1194
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: draw for this, and that there is a feedback loop,

1195
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: a constant feedback loop on hey we're managing these populations oftentimes,

1196
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: that there's a mandate for longevity or perpetuity UH, and

1197
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: the actual biologists are out there making decisions about who

1198
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: can hunt, how many people can hunt, when they can hunt? Um,

1199
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: And that worked just explaining that no, like hunting is

1200
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: good because of A, B and C, just like, here's

1201
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,439
Speaker 1: the regulation surrounding hunting. And we broke down basically state

1202
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: fish and wildlife agencies and we didn't say anything about

1203
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 1: the ESA or anything like that. This is just state

1204
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: level management and people's attitudes towards hunting improved. And I

1205
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: think that's really interesting and may I guess on a

1206
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: really abstract level level, it's like it's hardening, right, you know,

1207
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: I was struggling for what it was. I was struggling

1208
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 1: for the right word. It's hardening. So I think that

1209
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 1: it's easy to fall into this trap of being like, oh,

1210
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: anyone that doesn't agree with me, it's just the people

1211
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: are so dumb now and yeah, and I'd be like no,

1212
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: because you know, often times people have you don't know

1213
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: what you don't know? Yeah, people I have an opinion

1214
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: and maybe they're not totally married to it, and then

1215
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: you present them with some information and they're like, oh, yeah,

1216
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: you know I feel better about that now. Yeah. It's uh, yeah,

1217
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: it was definitely hardening to see if you just present

1218
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: people with with some facts. And you know, people can

1219
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: only make deductions about what they're exposed to if you

1220
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: present them with the facts, that they will in fact,

1221
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: you know ingest them and make a make a decision

1222
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: after that. And that it in fact does make people

1223
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: more positive about hunting was huge. Um. And and you

1224
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: can tell you, I tell you a quick story. Sure

1225
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: the already I was walking down the road near here

1226
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: and some guy was handing out flyers about how he

1227
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: wanted to get a four way stop put in somewhere

1228
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: where there wasn't a four way stop. I was initially

1229
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: resistant to the idea because I'm just you know, just

1230
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: general weariness about more rules. Remember talking about change. Dude,

1231
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: I have this people with clipboards on the streets. Then

1232
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 1: the dude told me this. He showed me a bunch

1233
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: of stuff saying, in fact, four way stop will probably

1234
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: speed things up at this intersection. Wow. I'm like, all right,

1235
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 1: I'll sign your thing. I didn't know that. I didn't

1236
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: know that that was true. I wonder if it is.

1237
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: I was swayed by I was swayed by data. I

1238
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: went from not one to I went I went from

1239
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 1: wanting to tear his clipboard up to sign him one

1240
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: of his pieces of paper. Well, it's compelling stuff and

1241
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: it's I'm happy to hear that. In my sample, a

1242
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: lot of people are like you right, like And it

1243
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: was also this was by far the densest possible perspective.

1244
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: It's why we had to create animations, right, And it

1245
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: still worked for sure, because yeah, you're dealing with and

1246
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: you're not making any emotional argument about like my attachment

1247
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 1: to hunting. It's like, yeah, I do have it because

1248
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: you like the food in language. Yeah. Yeah, it's just

1249
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 1: like here's the regulation. Yeah. So that was a really

1250
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 1: cool finding I think. Um, and that was probably without

1251
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: explain to him like how dance and how hard it

1252
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: is to understand those breaking regulations books, right, Yeah, we

1253
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 1: just laid it out. I mean we had little animations

1254
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 1: of like calendars and video licenses. Yeah, I think we might. Um,

1255
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 1: it's not manipulative, but it's it's a great video. I

1256
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: thought it's not. Man I would hope it's not manipulative,

1257
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. It's like it again, it's

1258
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: like you did a good job. It's like you're not like, uh,

1259
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 1: like if if someone said to me, like make a

1260
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 1: video like that, I would have taken away different approach,

1261
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: and you're like you were able to sort of stick

1262
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: to the mandates of your job and be like, how

1263
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: can I I'm a just good experience. How can I

1264
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 1: just like explain it without waiting it in one way

1265
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: or the other, you know, because it would have been

1266
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: like these wonderful, really smart but yeah, it's uh. I

1267
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 1: think I might try to repurpose them and release some

1268
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 1: of them to the public, you know, because I think, like, honestly,

1269
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: it's thrilling just just explaining the regulation surrounding hunting is

1270
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: making people feel more positively towards it. I think it's huge,

1271
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: and it gives us another perspective aside from food. And

1272
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 1: like I was telling Steve, we really need non hunters.

1273
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: You know, hunters are at the whim of non hunters.

1274
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 1: We really rely on kind of their judgments to give

1275
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: us the privilege of hunting. Um. And so the last

1276
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 1: condition is the revenue surrounding hunting, right, And I broke

1277
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 1: it down earlier, and that was interesting and that it

1278
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: worked when moderated by people's self reported strength of environmental beliefs.

1279
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,440
Speaker 1: So there was another question, right that was, like I

1280
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 1: had to ask it vaguely because I didn't want to

1281
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: go down rabbit holes of like trying to define what

1282
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: environmentalism is because it is a loaded term, right, I asked, um,

1283
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: you know how strong are your environmental beliefs? I don't

1284
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: remember the exact words, but it was something to the

1285
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: effected that on another sliding scale, and the higher your

1286
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: environmental beliefs, or the higher your concern for the environment, um,

1287
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 1: the less likely a revenue argument was to work for you.

1288
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: But if you yeah, so, but you told me about this,

1289
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: I thought you meant the opposite, the less likely it

1290
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 1: was gonna work. So for people who were like, like,

1291
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm a hardist environmentalist. Yeah, but I'll tell you why.

1292
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: It's because I still feel like I'm getting you wrong.

1293
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: You're telling me that a hard hitting someone who identifies

1294
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: as a hard hitting environmentalist was less likely to be

1295
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 1: swayed by the by the financial impact of haunting and

1296
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 1: fishing licenses on wildlife conservation. Well, it's that last thing

1297
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 1: you said on wildlife conservation. In an effort to isolate

1298
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 1: the revenue argument, I tried to I mean, in some

1299
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: ways it's unavoidable to tie into conservation, but the emphasis

1300
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 1: in that particular audition was not like and all this

1301
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 1: money goes to conservation. I mean, I of course had

1302
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 1: to talk about it. When I had to talk about it,

1303
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: how do you say where the money goes? I did say,

1304
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, this money has to be spent by the

1305
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: State Department of Fishing Game, but you don't get into

1306
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: what they do with it. I said things like habitat improvement.

1307
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: But I mean the bulk of the video was very

1308
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: much focused on just like here is the money generated.

1309
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: You know, you've got eight hundred million dollars in license

1310
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: at tax stamps. You've got additional a few hundred million

1311
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:29,920
Speaker 1: dollars at the pivot Roberts and exercise tax and that's

1312
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 1: like one point two billion dollars. Showed a bunch of

1313
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: panda bears and lions and stuff drinking out of a

1314
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 1: water together. I think we had some trees and coupling

1315
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: animals at some point. But but yeah, like if I

1316
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: was if I was you know, if I took off

1317
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 1: my social scientists hat and I was trying to make

1318
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: a pitch around the revenue, I'd absolutely hammer the fact that, like, look,

1319
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: all this money is going into conservation. And I think

1320
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: that that's that that's a valid argument for sure, But

1321
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 1: I was just trying to isolate, like I wonder if

1322
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: just a strict money argument surrounding hunting you can actually

1323
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 1: can actually affect attitudes, and for people who did not

1324
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 1: self identify as an environmentalist or or say that they

1325
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 1: were high on the scale, it did work, which kind

1326
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 1: of makes sense. I know you don't do why why Well,

1327
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: all right, I'll get into this one. And I think

1328
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 1: it's because, like, if you really care about the environment,

1329
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: someone's telling you, like this activity generates three million allars,

1330
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 1: You're like, well, that's great, you know, but I but

1331
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 1: does that impact the environment? You know, like, is it

1332
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: actually good for the environment? I don't care how much

1333
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 1: money it's making. You know, that's um and so I

1334
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: think that's what's responsible for going on. I'm making assumptions

1335
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 1: about that. But that's my best guess, right, is if

1336
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 1: you really care about the environment, you're like, Okay, listen,

1337
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: all this money generated is great, but I'm not you know,

1338
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: you haven't told me about ah, you know why hunting

1339
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:48,799
Speaker 1: is good for the environment. It's that's a really tricky

1340
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 1: word to just environment environmentalist because like in my own

1341
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: lifetime um. Early on, like an environmentalist was basically that

1342
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 1: means you didn't like litter, right, Like the earliest part

1343
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 1: of the environmental moment was like was was interpreted to

1344
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 1: people like don't throw fast food rappers out the end

1345
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: of your car, which is just aesthetics like you think

1346
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: a monkey ranch gang. Yeah, the guy those beer cans

1347
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: window because he hates the damn road. He's like, the

1348
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 1: road is the problem is that the beer can. I'm

1349
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: defiling the road, which I don't like. So that was

1350
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:27,560
Speaker 1: one thing for a while. Then it was like, for

1351
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 1: while I interpreted the environmental movement as a young person

1352
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 1: to be that it was synonymous with animal rights, which

1353
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 1: is like my interpretation right now I think that someone

1354
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 1: says like are you environmentalists? Now it's becoming sort of

1355
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 1: saying like how do you feel about human cause climate change?

1356
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: It's almost like you know what I mean, Like the

1357
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: word is um, yeah, it moves around creepy ways. You know,

1358
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 1: I'm not the creepies out the right word, but this

1359
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 1: moves around. It attaches itself two things informs these sort

1360
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 1: of like a exting relationships with certain issues. But then

1361
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: and I used to always really like the word conservationist.

1362
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: But now it's almost like a battle there because conservations

1363
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 1: for a long time had a I feel that it

1364
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 1: was that it was tightly connected with basically like honey,

1365
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:24,600
Speaker 1: Like honey and hunter fisherman based environmentalism would would go

1366
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 1: under conservation because they're stealing our word. There's stealing our

1367
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: word because they know that their word has a negative

1368
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:33,639
Speaker 1: Their word has a negative feeling in the American mind.

1369
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: I think there is a negative connotation of the world.

1370
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 1: So now environmental groups are being like conservation has a

1371
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 1: more measured, practical, you know, things up and open on

1372
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: top of the table kind of feel to it, and

1373
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 1: environmentalism makes people feel a little prickly. Yeah, I totally

1374
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:57,679
Speaker 1: hijacking our word. I mean I strategically use both drives

1375
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 1: people nuts, But I'm an environmentalist. How conservationists like? I think,

1376
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: I really think people don't like to say that it's

1377
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 1: the same thing. No, but I do it to message.

1378
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,560
Speaker 1: I think the line is so arbitrted. I'm like, you know,

1379
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 1: I'm a hunter. You mean meaning I'm an environmentalist. Yeah, dude,

1380
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: I do the same thing. That division drives me crazy.

1381
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: I used a mess of people. Yeah, Oh, I do too. Absolutely. Um,

1382
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 1: I think honestly, it's like I think because I study politics,

1383
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 1: it's like environmentalists, Oh you're a liberal conservationist. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

1384
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 1: it's a it's a proxy for I like to just

1385
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 1: use both all the time and tell people the divisions.

1386
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 1: And I'm talking to lefties, but I'm talking to lefties.

1387
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 1: I do use I do try to speak of myself

1388
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 1: as an environmentalist as being like, I have way more

1389
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 1: in the game than you do as a hunter environmentalist. Yeah,

1390
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 1: but if I'm talking to like some old hardly adversarial tone.

1391
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: But if I'm talking to like some old timers who

1392
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 1: might not know what I'm getting at, then yeah, he's

1393
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 1: like we all played little games, you know. I mean,

1394
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:56,719
Speaker 1: you've got to have source credibility with your audience whoever

1395
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:58,840
Speaker 1: it is right, and I certainly do that. And that's

1396
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:00,639
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about how to wrestle

1397
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:05,320
Speaker 1: with absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's so many more things

1398
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 1: I would love to do in this domain, and I'm

1399
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 1: it'd be exciting to crack into more. So I wonder

1400
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 1: what the reception to this, So what will happen with

1401
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: your stuff? You're gonna put it out there. So what

1402
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do? You think you should not put it

1403
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 1: out there? Just let's just leak it to the proper

1404
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 1: people so we know how to tailor our arguments to win,

1405
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 1: because once you put it out there, it's going to

1406
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 1: diffuse it, I don't think so. I mean, it's not

1407
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:32,360
Speaker 1: like these aren't heavy handed marketing appeals. And I'm testing, right,

1408
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 1: It's not like I was doing these pitch videos. It's like,

1409
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 1: let's see which one works best. You know, they're just

1410
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: straightforward arguments, and I think people are reasonable enough to

1411
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: see that, Like all the arguments are actually they're all

1412
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 1: factually accurate, the population control one being in some specific

1413
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 1: instances it's actually accurate and others it's not. But they're

1414
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 1: all just like accurate assessments of pro hunting perspectives. And

1415
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna publish this in a journal, but don't you

1416
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 1: want to do something like because you know it's something?

1417
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 1: When is it there? Whenever we get around to it. Okay,

1418
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: sometime within the next eight weeks anyways, all right, so

1419
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 1: I believe the time probably January, okay, perfect, So by

1420
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:13,680
Speaker 1: the time this is aired, this the article will have

1421
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,519
Speaker 1: been submitted to an academic journal within the realm of

1422
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: wildlife management. Oh, I'm going both routes, so and here's why.

1423
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,400
Speaker 1: So I'm submitting it to an academic journal. So do

1424
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: They'll go through peer review and people see like, this

1425
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 1: is a legitimate study like this I have, like you know,

1426
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing. It can stand up to

1427
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: pure review and it'll get published. And then I would

1428
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:39,320
Speaker 1: love to do a popular uh peace surrounding this. You know,

1429
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: no one's gonna go, oh, let me get on j

1430
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:43,040
Speaker 1: store and look up some academic article about this, but

1431
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 1: they will read something and I don't know your New

1432
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 1: York Times WAPO. I mean, I'm probably shooting way too high,

1433
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 1: but but I'd love to do I'd love to do

1434
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 1: a popular cover of these findings and write that up

1435
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 1: and uh kind of a more holistic approach, because then

1436
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have to be so kind of broken down

1437
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 1: into our like social side, like oh, well, I can't

1438
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 1: talk about that, you know, I can't make assumptions about

1439
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 1: why they felt that way. You know, you really can

1440
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 1: do these things if it's an op ed um. But

1441
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 1: I want people to know that when I'm referencing my results,

1442
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 1: it's not like I just did. Oh yeah, I did

1443
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: some study on my computer and write. I don't know

1444
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: that it's a legitimate study. I know. I know it's

1445
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: controversial in your community, in the academic, you know, in

1446
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 1: the scholar of the world. But I think there's great

1447
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 1: value in it in learning how to sort of like

1448
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,599
Speaker 1: translate some findings and help people make sense out of stuff.

1449
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 1: It is controversial, and I agree with you for sure.

1450
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: I think people pop science, Yeah, but people like the

1451
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 1: lamb ast Like like if if a paleontologist or an

1452
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:42,280
Speaker 1: archaeologist is working on something and then they come out

1453
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:47,479
Speaker 1: and do a popular piece and and don't and don't

1454
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 1: stress all the caveats quite enough, and like and stress

1455
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:57,320
Speaker 1: how subject to um, you know, how subject to error

1456
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 1: the radio carbon dating might be. That then they get

1457
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 1: raked through the coals for like overblowing their data. Yeah,

1458
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:08,640
Speaker 1: it was like, what is the net? What's the like

1459
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 1: the net goal? I feel like you might say, like

1460
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:16,640
Speaker 1: I feel my article made the public a little bit smarter. Now,

1461
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 1: sure we could have withheld all the information, you know,

1462
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,679
Speaker 1: but isn't the end thing to sort of like enlighten

1463
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: people around you. I mean, I just I had this

1464
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: conversation some people that kind of drives me us and

1465
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: they have this aversion to being too people saying like, basically,

1466
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 1: here's what I'm getting at. Yeah, Yeah, I think you're right,

1467
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 1: And I mean I've witnessed tons of arguments surrounding this.

1468
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 1: I have a to agree with you completely that it's

1469
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 1: I mean, in a strict academic sense. You could say,

1470
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 1: I am only here to further on knowledge, you know,

1471
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 1: and it's like people want to read my stuff, they'll

1472
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: see that we have advanced human knowledge down the field, right,

1473
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: But I agree with you that, um, there's nothing inherently wrong,

1474
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: and I see a lot of good coming from covering

1475
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 1: this in a more accessible, popular manner, and that you

1476
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 1: can encapsulate your arguments and speculate maybe as to what

1477
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:06,799
Speaker 1: that entails without you know, delegitimizing science socially, and someone's

1478
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,120
Speaker 1: going to pick up on it anyway though. Yeah, like

1479
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 1: any kind of groundbreaking work, it winds up getting interpreted

1480
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 1: by journalists anyway. So if you could be in a

1481
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: little bit in the driver's seat, and how if you

1482
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 1: could see through the publication on your own and be

1483
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 1: a little bit of the driver's seat to help them

1484
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 1: avoid some of the pitfalls that are out there. All

1485
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,280
Speaker 1: the better because if you have something earth shattering, people

1486
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:29,160
Speaker 1: are gonna write about it, mess it all up anyhow.

1487
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:32,920
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, yeah, I totally agree. And I

1488
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 1: read archaeology piece recently where it's like someone interpreting something

1489
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 1: in a journal and I'm like, there's no way that

1490
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 1: the that the research you would agree with the way

1491
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 1: you encapsulated the findings. Yeah. I think the time like

1492
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,760
Speaker 1: a little bit that that people are becoming kind of

1493
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:54,720
Speaker 1: more friendly with the with op eds about their work. Um,

1494
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 1: I hear. What's funny is that isn't true that most

1495
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:00,280
Speaker 1: of the time you don't get to pick the head line.

1496
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 1: That the editor picks the headline. Yeah, that's generally true.

1497
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:05,720
Speaker 1: That one gets me, man, because it's like you can

1498
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: have people choose these like clickplate inflammatory headlines and well yeah,

1499
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:14,120
Speaker 1: but different but different organizations have. Um, you know, some

1500
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 1: organizations really have they have a system in place that

1501
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 1: keeps things like somewhat neutral, right, and somethings just go

1502
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 1: for inflammatory bullshit. But some places, you know, you wouldn't

1503
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 1: be able to pick it because they would be afraid

1504
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 1: you'd oversell it. Yeah, and in some places wouldn't they

1505
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 1: would be horrified. I mean, I'm not the conversations I'm

1506
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:38,759
Speaker 1: hearing ore from like click baity places, but it's probably

1507
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 1: people with their academic hats on being like, oh, he

1508
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:43,600
Speaker 1: didn't quite capture the caveats I was talking about in

1509
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 1: that headlines. It's probably that in tendency. But but I

1510
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,639
Speaker 1: certainly have no problem with going into the public domain.

1511
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:52,599
Speaker 1: And I think that's my ultimate objective I think, which

1512
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 1: is as an academic, you know, it's that'll probably rub

1513
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 1: some people the wrong way that the peer reviewed piece

1514
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 1: isn't my ultimate objective. It's like a way to demon

1515
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 1: straight that what I've done is scientifically legitimate. And then

1516
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 1: I want, yeah, I want to talk about it with people.

1517
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 1: I want to get it out there. Um, And yeah,

1518
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:08,640
Speaker 1: I hope the hunting community kind of looks at it

1519
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 1: and I don't know, maybe make some smart decisions with it.

1520
01:18:12,160 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think they will, I hope. So, yeah,

1521
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 1: it seems to be resonating with a lot of people

1522
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 1: that I'm talking to, But I could be in our

1523
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, the modern look of war green hunter who

1524
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 1: all the wildlife but not those last this year. They're

1525
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,880
Speaker 1: the good ones. Um, I've told a coupe of people

1526
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:37,640
Speaker 1: about it your stuff, and they how they react like surprised,

1527
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 1: very interested, anxiously awaiting to that's great to hear. You

1528
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,080
Speaker 1: call people within who work in the world, you know,

1529
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 1: marketing worlds and things, and I told him did I'll

1530
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, I leaked a little bit,

1531
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 1: but I said, you have to have to check with

1532
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,040
Speaker 1: him when he gets his stuff done. Yeah, I mean,

1533
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:56,960
Speaker 1: I hope it's interesting. I think a lot of the

1534
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,640
Speaker 1: organizations I naturally think of our marketing to mostly the

1535
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,280
Speaker 1: hunters to retain membership or drive membership, so it might

1536
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:08,599
Speaker 1: not be totally, um, you know, totally particular to them,

1537
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 1: but but yeah, I think more generally, man, we gotta

1538
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,639
Speaker 1: we have to make sure that um, non hunters really

1539
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,519
Speaker 1: understand that it's not a bad thing. I'm the real

1540
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 1: they support it, and like, here's why. There are legitimate reasons.

1541
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 1: It's not just marketing appeals like regulation itself. The more

1542
01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:27,800
Speaker 1: you know, m yeah, you got concluding thoughts. Yeah, well, yeah,

1543
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 1: it's on the heels of that. It's like we can't

1544
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:31,920
Speaker 1: go around and patting ourselves on the back and sitting

1545
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 1: around and going yeah, we're gonna raise our kids hunting vision.

1546
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 1: It's gonna be great. Everybody's gonna keep doing it forever.

1547
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 1: We gotta get everybody else on board so we can

1548
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:44,400
Speaker 1: look a clip. And you've always said that, you know,

1549
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:49,599
Speaker 1: venice and diplomacy. Oh yeah, you know. I mean that's okay.

1550
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 1: I thought you meant something different. I thought you meant

1551
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:54,599
Speaker 1: something different by your concluding thought. No, I was saying

1552
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:58,080
Speaker 1: that it seems like hunters are real good hanging around

1553
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:02,720
Speaker 1: bullshitting with each other, yeah, and being like, yeah, yeah,

1554
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:05,320
Speaker 1: we have we kind of reach that we can't just talk.

1555
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:09,120
Speaker 1: And then it's like, like you said, they're just like yep, no,

1556
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:12,200
Speaker 1: we're just controlling deer populations. Yeah, and they have nothing

1557
01:20:12,280 --> 01:20:14,320
Speaker 1: more to add to that. Now. You know you can

1558
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:18,080
Speaker 1: throw that one out, Yeah, adds something different and talk

1559
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:20,439
Speaker 1: about food. But I'll point out to if you're gonna

1560
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 1: use the food one, don't be a bullshitter man. Take

1561
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 1: good care of your game meat. Don't just start talking

1562
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:31,519
Speaker 1: about stuff you have no organic interest in, but you're

1563
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 1: just using it because you like the sounds or you

1564
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,360
Speaker 1: know what works. What's riding your gears there? Who are

1565
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 1: you thinking about? You know what I'm just saying live,

1566
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,559
Speaker 1: if you're gonna, if you're gonna, you know you're gonna

1567
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:46,920
Speaker 1: talk talk. How's that saying? Go walk walk? No, I

1568
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:49,400
Speaker 1: agree with you. There, there's a there's a little bit

1569
01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 1: of that going on in hunting social media. I don't

1570
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 1: know if we can you know how how much. I'm

1571
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 1: not gonna slam anybody in particular, but there's definitely some

1572
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,600
Speaker 1: of that that goes on where I feel like I

1573
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 1: see a lot of like this, like it's the only

1574
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 1: organic meat, it's all eat blah blah blah. I'm like,

1575
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:13,479
Speaker 1: man like, I don't think you've even broken down your

1576
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 1: own animal once you know every animal you ever kill,

1577
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 1: went down to seeze meat market. I think I think

1578
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 1: it's I think man um. I recently was talking to

1579
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:28,479
Speaker 1: someone who's talking about some person that you killed the

1580
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:30,040
Speaker 1: elk can they were able to roll in the back

1581
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:34,640
Speaker 1: of the truck. Later they're headed a butcher shop and

1582
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 1: or they're breaking down like a meat locker, and he

1583
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:40,040
Speaker 1: took the leg out and put in his backpack and

1584
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:47,160
Speaker 1: went back out to do the packout photos. I've been there.

1585
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 1: I've been there. I've driven a few mule deer around it.

1586
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 1: Back to the trucks. Different you know, precipicees and you

1587
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 1: know nice vistas, got out and you carried the deer

1588
01:21:57,479 --> 01:21:59,680
Speaker 1: up there and take a picture. Well, no, be a

1589
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:02,760
Speaker 1: truck tuck, but's a different location. Was the truck do

1590
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 1: like them out gripping grids in various places? Yeah, I

1591
01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 1: think that's common practice. It's that for the guys that

1592
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:13,560
Speaker 1: are really into grips. But that's different than doing, like

1593
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:17,599
Speaker 1: than going out to rolling in your truck and then

1594
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:21,200
Speaker 1: later going out and doing your pack out shots. Yeah,

1595
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 1: that's just disingenuous. Oh pack out No, no, no, not

1596
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:29,000
Speaker 1: gripping grind No, rolled it into your truck, took it

1597
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: into a meat processing place, grabbed the back leg, put

1598
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 1: it in the backpack, and then went out and did

1599
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:38,559
Speaker 1: a photos series of packing the meat out. Nice. Yeah,

1600
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:41,519
Speaker 1: it's like some of the folks packing out antlers in

1601
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:43,479
Speaker 1: the magazines. I'm like, what in the world is this

1602
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 1: guy doing? Like, yeah, so dude on top of a high,

1603
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 1: high peak with just the set of antlers, Like you

1604
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 1: mean to tell me, Hold on a minute, you're telling

1605
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: me that marketing has lied to me me. Usually don't

1606
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:00,799
Speaker 1: pack around antlers the whole time. You're hunting and bugling,

1607
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:03,920
Speaker 1: you don't usually do the same. Yeah, yeah, that's another class.

1608
01:23:03,960 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 1: Because the dude with apparent antlers strapped on his back

1609
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 1: on a peak, ripping a bugle, He's like, I got one.

1610
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:11,680
Speaker 1: I took the antlers off it. Now I'm going to

1611
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:16,519
Speaker 1: get me another one. I have a concluding concluder, and

1612
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:19,160
Speaker 1: just so I don't steal Greg's because he's gonna get

1613
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:24,320
Speaker 1: the final glory with keeping public. I know I've got several,

1614
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:26,840
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna I'm just gonna stick this in here

1615
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,680
Speaker 1: right now so that I don't have to say anything later.

1616
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: I'll add to something later. But Greg's well aware of this,

1617
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 1: uh topic. But oh my god, I'm on this. I

1618
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:45,559
Speaker 1: don't know how good they are. That is the jumping

1619
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:48,720
Speaker 1: the fire. That is the exact perch on air to

1620
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: see if they would work. Now you can see. My

1621
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 1: daughter was helping me last night and she saw the

1622
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:59,720
Speaker 1: pink calftail and she's like, well, you got a tap.

1623
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 1: Think it gonna work, dude, that's exactly now. I had

1624
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 1: a couple of guys, had a couple of extremely generous

1625
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:11,320
Speaker 1: people send me a couple of perch flies, and they

1626
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:14,560
Speaker 1: were good but these are the this is what my

1627
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:16,439
Speaker 1: now here's the thing. This, this is what my old

1628
01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:20,800
Speaker 1: man type like. Like. The guy that invented this fly

1629
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:30,600
Speaker 1: is a commercial bait fisherman named Ron Spring. Ron was

1630
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,640
Speaker 1: my dad's fishing body. And Ron made his living when

1631
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 1: you went into bought live bait. Ron made his living

1632
01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:42,640
Speaker 1: catching live bait. No, no, all kind of ways. He

1633
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 1: supplied crayfish, he supplied wax worms, he supplied wigglers, He

1634
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:52,360
Speaker 1: trapped leeches, he trapped shiners, minnows. He was a bait fisherman.

1635
01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 1: He supplied live bait stars and this was his fa

1636
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 1: Now my old man fished with them. You know. These

1637
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 1: are guys that would fish two d two hundred fifty

1638
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 1: days a year. And this was there my old man

1639
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 1: and his friends, Alcohol Ron Spring. This was the fly

1640
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:19,599
Speaker 1: they use through the ice for yellow perch exactly. Oh

1641
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 1: that's through the ice. That's not for open one. Not

1642
01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:24,680
Speaker 1: just that. This is the fly they would also use

1643
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:27,960
Speaker 1: when the big white bellies were out in about a

1644
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 1: hundred feet of water in Lake Michigan. That fly interesting,

1645
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 1: Now that's calftail, and I couldn't tell by the picture.

1646
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:40,640
Speaker 1: Now you know why you want to get you know

1647
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 1: what you want, the the shank naked, so you can

1648
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 1: put so you can string a bait up on her

1649
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 1: perchise or whatever. Like a lot of times we tip

1650
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:57,280
Speaker 1: it with a perch eyeball. See that's bucktail. And I

1651
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:03,639
Speaker 1: was having a hard time keeping it short, Trim. Trim knows, Yeah,

1652
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:09,040
Speaker 1: you're not old to because people like the natural. And well,

1653
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 1: there you go. I left the barbs on for you

1654
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:19,479
Speaker 1: after how many years? Now it's about too. I'm stunned,

1655
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:22,559
Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't know what to say. It's

1656
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:25,680
Speaker 1: not a complicated fly. He just never got around to it.

1657
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:26,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say. I mean, I'm a

1658
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 1: listener too. I think we're all following this saga. No,

1659
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 1: he should see now my little workbench in the basement

1660
01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 1: looks like I'm practicing fly tire again. Man, you know

1661
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 1: what's funny. I just gave my brother a giant bag

1662
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:45,320
Speaker 1: of perch plase too, So I need to restop what

1663
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:47,240
Speaker 1: other kind of conclude did that? How many more concluding

1664
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 1: thoughts you got? I got no more unless I add

1665
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:51,719
Speaker 1: in on what you guys were I want to talk about.

1666
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 1: I was gonna read to you about the definition of

1667
01:26:57,200 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 1: a sportsman. We can say that for another time. Please

1668
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:04,920
Speaker 1: is it long? Not too long? But this is this

1669
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:07,320
Speaker 1: is what Grinnell wrote. Well, and then it just came

1670
01:27:07,360 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 1: to mind because I was reading this. Can we name

1671
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:13,559
Speaker 1: this paper? They ain't. Can anybody go read it? Technical

1672
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:18,559
Speaker 1: Review the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, Wildlife Society.

1673
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:23,200
Speaker 1: Very informative. Everybody study recall someone they can read this.

1674
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 1: Something you read you gotta day. Yeah, it's good, it's good.

1675
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 1: I'll call you back tomorrow. I'm gonna have some hunters

1676
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 1: come to your door. Oh you're looking for something right now? No, no, no,

1677
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:43,639
Speaker 1: I was just saying that, Well, what there's like six

1678
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 1: points that define a sportsman and the final one was

1679
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:53,280
Speaker 1: will not waste any game that is killed? Um the

1680
01:27:53,400 --> 01:28:00,639
Speaker 1: old Yeah, this is written in the that's that's Grenelle. Yeah, George, right, George,

1681
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:06,640
Speaker 1: George Bird. Um. So yeah, don't be a bullshitars. You

1682
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 1: can talk about food. Yeah, I live it up, man,

1683
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:15,559
Speaker 1: do it. People can smell bullshit. Um, My kids discover

1684
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:17,479
Speaker 1: the word bullshit like they love it, but they like

1685
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 1: it's much for their age. All right, now, Greg, Yeah,

1686
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:27,880
Speaker 1: I don't have a concluding thought, but I do want

1687
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 1: to ask so you you've started a group Keep It Public.

1688
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 1: So Keep it Public is basically dedicated to showcasing the

1689
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:41,799
Speaker 1: diversity of individuals who support federal public lands, right, because

1690
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 1: I think it's all too easy if you look at

1691
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: rhetoric on either side that it's like, oh that's a

1692
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:49,479
Speaker 1: liberal issue, or or oh that's a hunting issue, or

1693
01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:51,680
Speaker 1: oh that's only for backpackers, and it's like okay. On

1694
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:55,160
Speaker 1: the one hand, we need to show that support for

1695
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 1: federal public lands is cross recreational right, everyone who recreates

1696
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:04,360
Speaker 1: on it needs public land to kind of apply their pursuit, right.

1697
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:07,320
Speaker 1: And then you've also got these political divisions I think

1698
01:29:07,479 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, and I think you were

1699
01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:12,160
Speaker 1: talking about on a previous um previous podcast, that it's

1700
01:29:12,160 --> 01:29:14,439
Speaker 1: in the GOP platform right now that we should divest

1701
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:18,720
Speaker 1: public federal lands. But of course there are plenty of Republicans.

1702
01:29:18,760 --> 01:29:21,200
Speaker 1: There are tons of Republicans who support federal public lands,

1703
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:24,880
Speaker 1: including legislatures, legislators, and I think it's important to really

1704
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 1: showcase the bipartisan nature of the overwhelming support that the

1705
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 1: American public has for federal public lands. And I'm just

1706
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:34,600
Speaker 1: because I study politics, I think i'm really wary of

1707
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 1: this issue getting pegged into a left right spectrum. That's

1708
01:29:38,479 --> 01:29:40,519
Speaker 1: just like but I think I know, and I remember

1709
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 1: one day when that was in there, and that made

1710
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:45,280
Speaker 1: it into the that made it as a plank in

1711
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 1: the platform, and um, it was disheartening. Yeah, it was disheartened, absolutely,

1712
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:52,800
Speaker 1: And uh and again as much as I try to

1713
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 1: not look at you know, I don't look at things

1714
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: in a real part isn't way. Um, it was disappoint

1715
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:05,400
Speaker 1: to me that that made it in there, um, in

1716
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 1: the agenda of a party who I who I support

1717
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,720
Speaker 1: a great deal of their work, But I just I

1718
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 1: have a real problem. I have a real problem with

1719
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:16,240
Speaker 1: the fact that that's uh, part of the I do too,

1720
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 1: And I really don't like at all that it's been

1721
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:22,040
Speaker 1: attached like it's because it's now just entered the partisan realm, right,

1722
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: and it's not like, well, you know, are you a

1723
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:26,479
Speaker 1: bad Republican if you sport federal land system And that

1724
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 1: absolutely shouldn't be the case. I mean I have hunted

1725
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 1: with a hell of a lot of Republicans on public lands. Yeah,

1726
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:35,200
Speaker 1: but they I mean there are Republicans of course who

1727
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,240
Speaker 1: who really care about this issue and are every bit

1728
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 1: is passionate about. I mean, you don't have to be

1729
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 1: a Democrat to whoheartedly love federal public lands. And I

1730
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 1: think that's what we're trying to show. Yeah, those if

1731
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:46,200
Speaker 1: you can battle to keep that from becoming like a

1732
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:49,640
Speaker 1: knee jerk partners an issue. So our little niche is like,

1733
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:53,200
Speaker 1: we've got all these great organizations that are marketing to

1734
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,320
Speaker 1: a base. You've got Hook and Bullet marketing, hunters and anglers,

1735
01:30:56,640 --> 01:30:59,160
Speaker 1: you've got the ri I backpacking scene as I like

1736
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 1: to call them, market to your liberal hikers. Right, but

1737
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:04,479
Speaker 1: those guys have been ship But we'll get into that.

1738
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:08,640
Speaker 1: But what he did public is trying to do is

1739
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:11,880
Speaker 1: we're not marketing. Job is to battle that sentiment, right

1740
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:14,640
Speaker 1: to a degree, yes, And what we're really trying to

1741
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:17,680
Speaker 1: do is so that Hey, the only official stance we

1742
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:21,639
Speaker 1: have is that we support public lands under federal management,

1743
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:27,000
Speaker 1: and we oppose any land transferred to You support federal

1744
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:30,439
Speaker 1: things that are currently support the existing model, not the

1745
01:31:30,479 --> 01:31:36,160
Speaker 1: things would be transferred or somehow somehow seized and de privatized.

1746
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:38,960
Speaker 1: You're saying the federal public lands that we have right

1747
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:42,120
Speaker 1: now should stay that way, absolutely, And I think a

1748
01:31:42,240 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 1: land transferred to the States. We'll just absolutely need to

1749
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 1: a net major loss of public land access, whether it's

1750
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 1: sold outright or whether it's managed in a different way.

1751
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:55,080
Speaker 1: And we're trying to show that this isn't just you know,

1752
01:31:56,040 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 1: liberal Bay Area hiking and biking. I want my public lands.

1753
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:03,120
Speaker 1: This is everybody. And it's not just recreation either. I mean,

1754
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,200
Speaker 1: we're planning on doing a piece with ranchers. There are

1755
01:32:06,200 --> 01:32:08,680
Speaker 1: plenty of ranchers who support federal land. I mean, right

1756
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:11,479
Speaker 1: now in Montana, it's nine or ten times cheaper to

1757
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:13,880
Speaker 1: graze your cattle on federal public land than it is

1758
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 1: the next private land. And a lot of them have

1759
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:18,120
Speaker 1: no illusions about what will happen if federal land is

1760
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:21,880
Speaker 1: transferred to the states. We've also got industrial perspectives. I

1761
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:23,320
Speaker 1: have a friend who's a lawyer for an oil and

1762
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: gas company, and you know, the way the way they

1763
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:29,120
Speaker 1: talk about, uh, federal lands is you know, you might

1764
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:31,280
Speaker 1: think from an industrial perspective, they just they just hate

1765
01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:33,040
Speaker 1: it and they can't wait for it to be privatized.

1766
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 1: But you know a lot of them are fairly happy

1767
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:37,720
Speaker 1: with just how dirt cheap federal leases are. You know,

1768
01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:40,680
Speaker 1: it's a mixed model right, We're not just a you know,

1769
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 1: we're a bipartisan coalition building group. And it's not just

1770
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 1: bipartisan coalition within recreation. We're also trying to involve ranchers

1771
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,000
Speaker 1: and uh an industry. And part of that is, I

1772
01:32:51,080 --> 01:32:53,640
Speaker 1: got it's so fed up with like people looking at

1773
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 1: the Bundy's right and they'll be like cowboy hat wrangler jeans, Like, yeah,

1774
01:32:57,920 --> 01:32:59,599
Speaker 1: they might be a little bit extreme, but they must

1775
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 1: be the extreme side of the position that I feel, right,

1776
01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:05,519
Speaker 1: because like, look at me, I'm a rural Western Americans.

1777
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,120
Speaker 1: So they're like, must be they're a little bit beyond

1778
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 1: the pale, but they must be on the right side

1779
01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:11,639
Speaker 1: of this coin. And no, I don't think that's the case.

1780
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:13,400
Speaker 1: I don't think we should let these people kind of

1781
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:17,280
Speaker 1: capture the imagery of the rural American West, because there

1782
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:21,960
Speaker 1: are plenty of rural Westerners who support federal public lands. Yeah,

1783
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:23,680
Speaker 1: but those guys staying for a lot more now, I mean,

1784
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:28,559
Speaker 1: like I stand for um, paying what yo mm hmm,

1785
01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:33,760
Speaker 1: and not exploiting contracts and owning up to your responsibilities,

1786
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:38,479
Speaker 1: and they definitely don't. Yeah, expand on that, well, I

1787
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:41,920
Speaker 1: mean you've if you go out and run cattle on

1788
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:45,680
Speaker 1: the American by the American people, and rack up a

1789
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 1: debt close to a million dollars and don't pay for

1790
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 1: what you did. That's just like being that's just called

1791
01:33:51,439 --> 01:33:55,120
Speaker 1: an asshole. Theft. Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah, But I mean

1792
01:33:55,560 --> 01:33:59,639
Speaker 1: at the same that's that becomes like heroic to sort

1793
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:04,200
Speaker 1: of Also, it's like just like great American heroism to

1794
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 1: default on contracts. I think people are just like they're

1795
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:12,080
Speaker 1: rejecting a tyrannical government. But I honestly think at people, yeah,

1796
01:34:12,080 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 1: in a way that benefit's you financially. Know, if you're

1797
01:34:15,040 --> 01:34:18,360
Speaker 1: rejecting a tyrannical government in a way that hinders you financially,

1798
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:20,240
Speaker 1: that's a lot different than the way that being like

1799
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't want to pay this money. How can I

1800
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:25,559
Speaker 1: make it look like I'm on the right side of this? Yeah.

1801
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:28,640
Speaker 1: I just think like personally, in this era of you know,

1802
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:33,400
Speaker 1: judging issues and articles by basically headlines, I think it's

1803
01:34:33,479 --> 01:34:37,040
Speaker 1: real easy for people to uh see some que about

1804
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:39,920
Speaker 1: like I'm rural. They're wearing some clothing or they're talking

1805
01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:41,680
Speaker 1: in a way that makes me think they're ural there

1806
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 1: for I must be with them. I think there's a

1807
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 1: lot of people who aren't just engaging with the policy

1808
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:49,040
Speaker 1: or the issues, taking the easy way out, or maybe

1809
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:51,200
Speaker 1: just aren't you know, it could might not be malicious,

1810
01:34:51,280 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 1: like frankly, I'm a nerd about this stuff, right, and

1811
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:55,920
Speaker 1: like they might just not be as interested in federal

1812
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,479
Speaker 1: land policy. I can't really blame them, but it's very

1813
01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:01,679
Speaker 1: easy to look at some simple, you know, interpersonal queue

1814
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:04,240
Speaker 1: and be like there with my group, you know, their

1815
01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:06,759
Speaker 1: conservative Westerns, there with me, and it's like, no, plenty

1816
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:09,519
Speaker 1: of Conservatives, plenty of Republican support federal public lands. And

1817
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:13,559
Speaker 1: so we're going to basically market bipartisanship and market kind

1818
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:18,679
Speaker 1: of cross perspective support for federal public lands. Um, because

1819
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 1: we don't have a membership base that we're trying to

1820
01:35:22,040 --> 01:35:26,960
Speaker 1: retain or drive. Uh, we're basically just trying to remain viable.

1821
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 1: So we sell hats, shirts, stickers, vinyl decals to just

1822
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:32,800
Speaker 1: say keep it public and keep it public dot com

1823
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:36,800
Speaker 1: and six percent of all these of all of our

1824
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:39,439
Speaker 1: profits are split between three partners. So we've dosen to

1825
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, Backcountry Hunters and Anglers in the

1826
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:46,880
Speaker 1: Outdoor Alliance. The first two are of course, you know,

1827
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:49,040
Speaker 1: I think the listeners will be familiar with those is

1828
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:52,679
Speaker 1: kind of hooking bullet advocacy organizations. And then Outdoor Alliance

1829
01:35:52,760 --> 01:35:56,600
Speaker 1: is an umbrella group that has many I guess we

1830
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:00,320
Speaker 1: could call them like non consumptive recreational inter under it.

1831
01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 1: So you've got mountain biking and climbing and hiking and um,

1832
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:06,439
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if bird watching is under there, but

1833
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:10,080
Speaker 1: you've got kind of, you know, the non consumptive recreational

1834
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:12,599
Speaker 1: interests and and so even when we're choosing our partners,

1835
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:15,640
Speaker 1: we're trying to make sure that everyone is represented, right,

1836
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:19,599
Speaker 1: We're trying to have a broad tapestry, so six percent

1837
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:21,960
Speaker 1: of every purchase is going to go towards that. And

1838
01:36:22,040 --> 01:36:24,280
Speaker 1: we're not really looking at the company as a as

1839
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: really like an income generator, right, We just want to

1840
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:30,040
Speaker 1: We're not under any illusion to just selling hats and

1841
01:36:30,080 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 1: shirts is gonna get us rich at all, but we

1842
01:36:32,120 --> 01:36:35,920
Speaker 1: hope we remain viable enough to keep doing things like Um,

1843
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 1: I'm working with the animator from my experiment to make

1844
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 1: a linear kind of historical overview of how federal lands

1845
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:45,639
Speaker 1: came to be, because I think if you just look

1846
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:47,960
Speaker 1: at how federal lands evolved, I mean from the thirteen

1847
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:51,400
Speaker 1: columnies through uh, you know, purchasing Alaska and then how

1848
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:54,120
Speaker 1: we've switched from a model of aggressive disposal to retention.

1849
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:57,519
Speaker 1: If that's just laid out in a straightforward chronological history

1850
01:36:57,560 --> 01:36:59,000
Speaker 1: and of course of a couple of minutes, it's really

1851
01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:01,639
Speaker 1: hard to come to the uh, come to the position

1852
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:03,800
Speaker 1: that's somehow federal lands are legitimate. Oh that's the thing

1853
01:37:03,840 --> 01:37:05,560
Speaker 1: people try though. It's like the guy, it's like the

1854
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:07,519
Speaker 1: guy you're beating down there, like in a bar, who's like,

1855
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, if you read the Constitution, don't actually have

1856
01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:12,160
Speaker 1: to pay tax I gotta talk about you always find

1857
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:15,160
Speaker 1: guys like that, or guys who somehow like done this

1858
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 1: careful close reading of the Constitution. Guys the federal gro

1859
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:27,400
Speaker 1: only own Washington, d C. Yeah, talk about that, right, Okay, thought,

1860
01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 1: get into the constitution. Go ahead, get to the Constitution

1861
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:32,479
Speaker 1: for a minute. Yeah. So so this is my pet

1862
01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:36,600
Speaker 1: peeve is uh land seizear Folks like the Bundy is

1863
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:40,960
Speaker 1: mentioning the Constitution. Usually there is like legitimate gray area

1864
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:44,320
Speaker 1: and debate about interpreting the Constitution. Federal lands is not

1865
01:37:44,439 --> 01:37:47,520
Speaker 1: one of those things, right, The Property Clause is unequivocal

1866
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 1: that like federal lands are constitutional. For over a hundred

1867
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:53,920
Speaker 1: and seventy five years, the Supreme Court has never wavered

1868
01:37:53,960 --> 01:37:57,120
Speaker 1: in citing the property Clause as making federal lands legitimate.

1869
01:37:57,200 --> 01:37:59,320
Speaker 1: I mean that's a ton of different makeups of the

1870
01:37:59,320 --> 01:38:02,560
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. It's never wavered. They've never interpreted interpreted the

1871
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:05,960
Speaker 1: property clauses meaning anything other than something that supports federal land.

1872
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:09,920
Speaker 1: So just straight out federal land is legitimate constitutionally. Now

1873
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:14,479
Speaker 1: they're not as revalent, but it kind of relevant, but uh,

1874
01:38:14,640 --> 01:38:17,400
Speaker 1: it kind of begs a response. These guys are always

1875
01:38:17,400 --> 01:38:19,360
Speaker 1: like the Bundies are talking about the enclave clause and

1876
01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 1: the Tenth Amendment a lot. The enclave clause. It just

1877
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:24,519
Speaker 1: it doesn't really make much sense to to talk about

1878
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:27,280
Speaker 1: they're talking about these federal enclaves that are like military

1879
01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:31,640
Speaker 1: installations and things like that. Um, constitutional scholars kind of

1880
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:33,640
Speaker 1: baffled about why they bring this up because it does

1881
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:36,479
Speaker 1: nothing but really offer kind of like tangential support for

1882
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 1: federal lands. It's just not really that relevant. Actually, what

1883
01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:43,320
Speaker 1: what I think is happening, and this is really amusing,

1884
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:45,439
Speaker 1: is that it Snopes did a piece on this. I

1885
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 1: think they actually believe there are a few sentences in

1886
01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 1: the enclave clause. It's straight up don't exist, like there's

1887
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: in People like it's written in a way that looks constitutional,

1888
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:57,760
Speaker 1: say like no state should you know without its const

1889
01:38:58,439 --> 01:39:01,680
Speaker 1: bogus stuff. It's just in ration that isn't in the Constitution,

1890
01:39:01,920 --> 01:39:03,880
Speaker 1: And they cite the enclave clause, and people like, why

1891
01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:05,639
Speaker 1: the hell it's citing the enclave clause, Like that doesn't

1892
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:07,599
Speaker 1: make make sense. And as far as I can deduce,

1893
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:10,600
Speaker 1: they're they're like literally citing information that's not in the Constitution.

1894
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:13,439
Speaker 1: We have a link up on snouts on the website. Well,

1895
01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:15,519
Speaker 1: people bringing it up to almost more like like with

1896
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:19,439
Speaker 1: with those boys, as were like, so if they didn't

1897
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:22,280
Speaker 1: own it, what makes you think you don't it? Yeah,

1898
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 1: well this ten's like because if you're like, you're running

1899
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:27,559
Speaker 1: cattle and you're you're you're a man. You guys are

1900
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 1: running cattle on BLM land. But like if it wasn't

1901
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 1: BLM land, it wouldn't just be like sitting there, come one,

1902
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:38,600
Speaker 1: come all, it's some guy, I'd own it. Yeah, and

1903
01:39:38,640 --> 01:39:41,479
Speaker 1: you still wouldn't be running came. I guess everyone likes

1904
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:43,760
Speaker 1: a dream of themselves being that private land up. Yeah,

1905
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:45,479
Speaker 1: but to be like for me to be like, man,

1906
01:39:45,560 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 1: I wish my neighbors didn't exist, then I'd own their house.

1907
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:50,880
Speaker 1: Be like, no, it's probably just some other thing would

1908
01:39:50,880 --> 01:39:56,200
Speaker 1: own their house. Perspective that. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's

1909
01:39:56,240 --> 01:39:59,160
Speaker 1: the Tenth Amendment, which basically anybody using that to talk

1910
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:02,040
Speaker 1: about federal lands just ignoring the property class. I mean,

1911
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:04,639
Speaker 1: it's not like there's healthy debate amongst the Supreme Court.

1912
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:08,439
Speaker 1: It's like federal land is extremely constitutional. This ten mile

1913
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:10,840
Speaker 1: thing that I've heard sometimes it's ludicrous. I mean, it's

1914
01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:14,200
Speaker 1: in the enclave clause. I believe that's like that they

1915
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 1: only on Washington enclip clause. I believe it's in the

1916
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,120
Speaker 1: enclay clause. And it's talking about the seat of government.

1917
01:40:20,160 --> 01:40:23,160
Speaker 1: It's just talking about how big DC should be. It's

1918
01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:26,080
Speaker 1: I don't think that. I don't think that the I

1919
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:28,960
Speaker 1: think that that's like such a fringe like that approach

1920
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 1: is a fringe approach. I think a lot of people

1921
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:37,360
Speaker 1: look and they're like, sure, the federal government, like you know,

1922
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:41,240
Speaker 1: legally owns its federal lands. But I just feel like

1923
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:45,840
Speaker 1: it's too much. It's not administered in a way that's

1924
01:40:45,880 --> 01:40:48,519
Speaker 1: friendly to industry, and however it came to be is

1925
01:40:48,560 --> 01:40:50,120
Speaker 1: fine with me. I just think we should change what

1926
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:53,760
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, that's probably the dominant view. I totally agree.

1927
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that the mind is these people holding

1928
01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:59,320
Speaker 1: read the thing. Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible. It's like,

1929
01:40:59,479 --> 01:41:01,760
Speaker 1: it's just it's one of many things where it's annoying

1930
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:04,360
Speaker 1: whatever side of it you're on, it's just annoying because

1931
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:07,320
Speaker 1: if you just get where you just like, dislike misinformation

1932
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:10,360
Speaker 1: because not perfectly comfortable. I'll debate. I'd love the debate

1933
01:41:10,400 --> 01:41:12,880
Speaker 1: him on it, but I'm perfectly comfortable with a guy

1934
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:15,280
Speaker 1: who's like, no, I get it, it's all fair and square.

1935
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:17,360
Speaker 1: I just think we should do it differently. And we're

1936
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:19,559
Speaker 1: a country that changes all the time. We're always changing

1937
01:41:19,600 --> 01:41:23,360
Speaker 1: our rules, reassessing our priorities, and right now my priority

1938
01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:26,679
Speaker 1: is freeing up more of this land for extractive industries.

1939
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, you're entitled of that opinion. Now hear

1940
01:41:31,200 --> 01:41:33,360
Speaker 1: me out. I'd love to have the conversation. But when

1941
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:34,880
Speaker 1: a guy comes and says like, oh yeah, that they

1942
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:37,559
Speaker 1: can't owner all anyway, I'm always like, like I don't

1943
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:39,120
Speaker 1: even know where to begin, dude. I mean, it's like

1944
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:41,720
Speaker 1: we're not even on the same planet. I agree. I

1945
01:41:41,720 --> 01:41:43,479
Speaker 1: mean the former that you're talking about. These these people

1946
01:41:43,520 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 1: who are engaging with it but just have a different

1947
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 1: belief It's not like keeping public is just straight up rhetoric,

1948
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:49,639
Speaker 1: like this is what we believe, and like you're either

1949
01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:51,759
Speaker 1: with us or against us. We have a detailed policy

1950
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:54,559
Speaker 1: statement up there right now, uh, and we talk about,

1951
01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:56,800
Speaker 1: you know, the three arguments we have is, you know,

1952
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:01,400
Speaker 1: federal land is historically consistent, it's constitutionally protected, and it's

1953
01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:04,280
Speaker 1: fiscally advantageous. I think if you take a long term

1954
01:42:04,360 --> 01:42:06,960
Speaker 1: view of economics and industry, you will see that this

1955
01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:09,920
Speaker 1: mixed model that we have is is the most viable

1956
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:12,719
Speaker 1: way forward economically. Like I always buck at the idea

1957
01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:14,960
Speaker 1: that it's like, but I totally agree with you, and

1958
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:17,000
Speaker 1: you've said this on previous podcasts. I don't think that

1959
01:42:17,360 --> 01:42:20,479
Speaker 1: everything should have to justify itself in economic terms, and

1960
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:22,320
Speaker 1: I think this land falls into that. It just so

1961
01:42:22,439 --> 01:42:25,400
Speaker 1: happens it does that too. And I buck against some

1962
01:42:25,439 --> 01:42:27,640
Speaker 1: people who are like, well, it's just industry versus this

1963
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:29,680
Speaker 1: mixed model, you know, but a lot of states are

1964
01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:32,600
Speaker 1: not a lot. There's some states. It's a very conservative

1965
01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:36,200
Speaker 1: states will point out coming around saying they having looked

1966
01:42:36,240 --> 01:42:39,559
Speaker 1: at it, they're feeling that it's not advantageous for them

1967
01:42:39,640 --> 01:42:43,120
Speaker 1: to assume some of the financial responsibility of management of lands. Yeah,

1968
01:42:43,120 --> 01:42:46,200
Speaker 1: I believe that was a fiscal analysis that was mandated

1969
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:49,280
Speaker 1: by some legislation that the that the big time land

1970
01:42:49,320 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: transfer had because it's advocates are pushing for and they're like, oh,

1971
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:54,439
Speaker 1: I don't want that. States like yeah, because you could

1972
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:56,760
Speaker 1: have had a ton of expense, you could have a

1973
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:01,519
Speaker 1: cataclysmic wildfire bankrupt your state. And states don't have a

1974
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:05,840
Speaker 1: lot of the fiscal elasticity of the federal government where

1975
01:43:05,880 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 1: they have to live within budgetary constraints, and they're like,

1976
01:43:09,320 --> 01:43:12,880
Speaker 1: we don't have like our citizenry doesn't want to take

1977
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:16,240
Speaker 1: on the responsibility of property. Administering this land and administering

1978
01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:20,920
Speaker 1: it in these days comes down to fighting fires, like

1979
01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:26,160
Speaker 1: most of the Forest Service budget fights fires. Yeah, it's expensive,

1980
01:43:26,320 --> 01:43:28,000
Speaker 1: and I think some people now are looking at being like,

1981
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:29,559
Speaker 1: as much as it's supposed to be a great selling

1982
01:43:29,680 --> 01:43:33,200
Speaker 1: point industry, that's happening on these public lands as it

1983
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:37,360
Speaker 1: is is generating jobs and they're getting dirt cheap leases

1984
01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:39,680
Speaker 1: in our state. And it's like it's like we have

1985
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:42,439
Speaker 1: a lot to gain and in uh, not a terrible

1986
01:43:42,479 --> 01:43:45,400
Speaker 1: lot to lose, and it's a good system for us. Yeah,

1987
01:43:45,439 --> 01:43:48,120
Speaker 1: And I mean, even if there isn't a wildfire, you know,

1988
01:43:48,240 --> 01:43:50,840
Speaker 1: it's expensive to manage this land. Plus the federal government

1989
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:53,400
Speaker 1: gives each states whatever it's payments in lieu of taxes

1990
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:56,719
Speaker 1: are pilt, so if you transfer lands, it's it's taxes

1991
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:00,200
Speaker 1: that they would have made on revenue generated from the

1992
01:44:00,360 --> 01:44:03,519
Speaker 1: current industry on those lands. And yeah, I think the

1993
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 1: states are looking at it and like, wait, we now

1994
01:44:05,400 --> 01:44:07,479
Speaker 1: have to pay to manage the land we're not currently

1995
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:09,519
Speaker 1: paying for. Plus we're giving up the payments that we're

1996
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:11,640
Speaker 1: getting from the federal government. And I think there's an

1997
01:44:11,680 --> 01:44:13,840
Speaker 1: argument to be made that because some people would be like, well,

1998
01:44:13,920 --> 01:44:17,439
Speaker 1: I support public land, but you know, this is all

1999
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:20,040
Speaker 1: just like fear mongering. It'll still stay public when it's

2000
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:21,960
Speaker 1: in you know, when it's in state control. And I

2001
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:23,640
Speaker 1: don't believe that's the case at all for them, that

2002
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:26,519
Speaker 1: hasn't been borne out by history, right, and for them

2003
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:29,240
Speaker 1: to keep let's say theoretically that this happens. For a

2004
01:44:29,360 --> 01:44:32,040
Speaker 1: state to keep the current level of public access, it

2005
01:44:32,080 --> 01:44:35,360
Speaker 1: would incur enormous expenses, and the only viable way to

2006
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:38,280
Speaker 1: do it would be to jack up taxes on everybody.

2007
01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:41,160
Speaker 1: That's not gonna happen. Like, no politicians gonna be like

2008
01:44:41,280 --> 01:44:43,800
Speaker 1: I just like really jacked up for taxes because I

2009
01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:46,680
Speaker 1: want to keep all this public access, like like you know,

2010
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:50,600
Speaker 1: is now paying much higher time. Like, it's not gonna happen. No,

2011
01:44:50,920 --> 01:44:53,479
Speaker 1: And I mean just if you just kind of generally

2012
01:44:53,479 --> 01:44:56,559
Speaker 1: pay attention state control of lands that they're not as

2013
01:44:56,720 --> 01:45:01,000
Speaker 1: they're not as uh, state lands just not as open

2014
01:45:01,960 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 1: generally as federal lands to camping, hunting, a TV use.

2015
01:45:07,479 --> 01:45:09,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot of restrictions out and they carry a

2016
01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:13,240
Speaker 1: lot of financial fiscal restrictions where they can't run deficits

2017
01:45:13,280 --> 01:45:15,080
Speaker 1: and oftentimes have to sell land. Look at I mean,

2018
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:19,880
Speaker 1: Texas got liquidated virtually all their school trust lands over

2019
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:23,000
Speaker 1: the years, yea, And I mean that's that's the land

2020
01:45:23,080 --> 01:45:25,439
Speaker 1: that actually stays in state control, I mean most of it.

2021
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:27,200
Speaker 1: So it's I think a lot of people think that

2022
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:31,000
Speaker 1: like the federal government is like increasing its land ownership,

2023
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:33,280
Speaker 1: and that's not the case. It's it's been I mean,

2024
01:45:33,320 --> 01:45:37,320
Speaker 1: it's diminished by a few percents since right, like the

2025
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:39,599
Speaker 1: tap is going in the direction of from the Feds

2026
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:42,880
Speaker 1: to the states. Um and some of that's like land.

2027
01:45:42,960 --> 01:45:45,479
Speaker 1: You know, there's land swaps that happen and stuff. I'm

2028
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:48,040
Speaker 1: not saying it's all like that that it's emblematic of

2029
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:50,600
Speaker 1: a like of a larger land transfer. But what what

2030
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:52,840
Speaker 1: what I'm what I'm encouraged by. But a lot of

2031
01:45:52,880 --> 01:45:55,400
Speaker 1: that land just gets privatized outright, you know, Like the

2032
01:45:55,479 --> 01:45:57,439
Speaker 1: state lands that are open have restrictions, but a lot

2033
01:45:57,479 --> 01:45:59,600
Speaker 1: of the federal land that's transferred to the states just

2034
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:01,840
Speaker 1: gets sold out right. Yeah. And again, if people who

2035
01:46:01,840 --> 01:46:03,840
Speaker 1: want to talk about how state land doesn't go private,

2036
01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:07,600
Speaker 1: go look up Elliott State Park in Oregon selling a

2037
01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:09,639
Speaker 1: state park. Look at how much land has been sold

2038
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:14,040
Speaker 1: from Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada. I mean, it's alarmed. It's staggering figures. Yeah. Now,

2039
01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:15,720
Speaker 1: one thing that gives me a little bit of hope.

2040
01:46:15,760 --> 01:46:17,160
Speaker 1: And I don't know because I think he's gonna be

2041
01:46:17,280 --> 01:46:18,720
Speaker 1: We brought this up a couple of times. Now he's

2042
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:21,679
Speaker 1: gonna be under a lot of pressure from his adopted party.

2043
01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:26,120
Speaker 1: But uh. I heard Trump speak in January of last year,

2044
01:46:26,160 --> 01:46:27,840
Speaker 1: and Trump said he has no interest in dump in

2045
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:30,160
Speaker 1: federal public lands. Yeah, I want to talk about that.

2046
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:34,920
Speaker 1: I you know, we we've talked about it for I

2047
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:37,479
Speaker 1: understand he's gonna be under a ton of pressure. I

2048
01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:39,719
Speaker 1: know that he also in a lot of ways doesn't

2049
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:42,920
Speaker 1: have a lot of use for party orthodoxy. Um. He's

2050
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:46,200
Speaker 1: been willing to butt heads with um, some of his

2051
01:46:46,280 --> 01:46:48,439
Speaker 1: fellow party members on a number of issues. I hope

2052
01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:50,080
Speaker 1: he can butt heads of them on this. Yeah. I

2053
01:46:50,120 --> 01:46:53,400
Speaker 1: mean it certainly our responsibility to make sure that he does. Um. Yeah.

2054
01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:56,640
Speaker 1: On another he didn't mince words, No, he didn't, but

2055
01:46:57,280 --> 01:46:59,639
Speaker 1: he's made more. The Trump campaign has made three statements

2056
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:02,639
Speaker 1: about public lands in terms of if you separate their arguments.

2057
01:47:02,720 --> 01:47:05,760
Speaker 1: One has unequivocally been no interest in selling your your

2058
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:08,040
Speaker 1: federal public lands, and we think it should remain understand

2059
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:11,519
Speaker 1: that's the one I heard first. Two was the person

2060
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 1: that came out, I'm like, great, both candidates support federal

2061
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:17,600
Speaker 1: land management. Like the debate over my pet issue is like,

2062
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, at least I can focus on other things

2063
01:47:20,080 --> 01:47:22,840
Speaker 1: because that's not going to change. Then there was a

2064
01:47:22,960 --> 01:47:26,639
Speaker 1: messaging from his campaign said well, if it's under state management,

2065
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:29,479
Speaker 1: we still support public lands. It's like, well it's understate management,

2066
01:47:29,520 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 1: you have nothing to do with land anymore. They give

2067
01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:34,160
Speaker 1: me a break. And then the third one was he

2068
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:36,679
Speaker 1: did have a meeting with DeMar Doll, who's a big

2069
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:40,479
Speaker 1: in Nevada, who's a big land transfer advocate, and spoke

2070
01:47:40,479 --> 01:47:42,320
Speaker 1: to a group there, and uh Doll was kind of

2071
01:47:42,400 --> 01:47:46,040
Speaker 1: effusive in his praise of of that meeting. So I'm

2072
01:47:46,080 --> 01:47:48,800
Speaker 1: not using that as ah like, I'm just because we're

2073
01:47:48,840 --> 01:47:50,960
Speaker 1: talking politics. I'm not using that in any way to

2074
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:53,080
Speaker 1: say that's his true opinion and that these other things

2075
01:47:53,120 --> 01:47:55,160
Speaker 1: are just a charade. But it's just that he's he's

2076
01:47:55,160 --> 01:47:57,960
Speaker 1: an opportunist, right, and I think it behooves us to

2077
01:47:58,240 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 1: make sure that he hears the arguments in support of

2078
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:03,560
Speaker 1: federal public land and that we hold him to the

2079
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:06,720
Speaker 1: statements that he's made on our behalf right, Okay, but

2080
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:08,880
Speaker 1: they have been. It's tough for me because some of

2081
01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:11,559
Speaker 1: the statements have been in direct opposition, right. Yeah, I'm

2082
01:48:11,600 --> 01:48:13,880
Speaker 1: not naive enough to think. I'm not naive enough to

2083
01:48:13,920 --> 01:48:17,240
Speaker 1: think to what anybody says. Yeah, during trying to win

2084
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:20,240
Speaker 1: a one trying to at that point trying to win

2085
01:48:20,479 --> 01:48:24,160
Speaker 1: a not a party nomination. I'm not naive enough to

2086
01:48:24,240 --> 01:48:27,080
Speaker 1: think that that there's really that much blitting with anyone says,

2087
01:48:27,200 --> 01:48:31,600
Speaker 1: but um, it gives me something to hang on to.

2088
01:48:31,920 --> 01:48:37,320
Speaker 1: It gives me something to refer back to. Yeah, I mean,

2089
01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:41,000
Speaker 1: I I pray that because that it happened he supported

2090
01:48:41,080 --> 01:48:43,960
Speaker 1: federal lands so early in the process that I'm hoping

2091
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:46,679
Speaker 1: the latter were just artifacts of going through the campaign

2092
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:48,519
Speaker 1: is and I know that he has the ear of

2093
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:54,000
Speaker 1: his son who's in Yeah, that's right. So yeah, I

2094
01:48:54,080 --> 01:48:56,519
Speaker 1: mean that's this is a big thing that we're focused

2095
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:58,519
Speaker 1: on and keep it public because it's like we're not

2096
01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:01,840
Speaker 1: going to um, you know, tout one party over the

2097
01:49:01,880 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 1: other at all. It's like, listen, we the only official

2098
01:49:04,960 --> 01:49:07,280
Speaker 1: statement that we're gonna make is that we support public

2099
01:49:07,400 --> 01:49:09,720
Speaker 1: lands under federal management. You can't tell you can't tell

2100
01:49:09,760 --> 01:49:12,160
Speaker 1: one party because the parties are good part The parties

2101
01:49:12,160 --> 01:49:14,640
Speaker 1: don't do anything for us, right right, Yeah, Yeah, you

2102
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:16,800
Speaker 1: have one party the grave for cleaning air and clean water,

2103
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:20,160
Speaker 1: probably generally hostile the hunting fishing type. Dudes. Yeah, you

2104
01:49:20,280 --> 01:49:22,599
Speaker 1: got one party open, We'll welcome me with open arms.

2105
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:24,400
Speaker 1: The hunting, fishing type stuff. You gotta keep an eye

2106
01:49:24,400 --> 01:49:26,240
Speaker 1: on them when it comes to cleaning air and clean water. Yep.

2107
01:49:26,760 --> 01:49:29,559
Speaker 1: It's like, we need our own party, you know. It's

2108
01:49:29,600 --> 01:49:35,280
Speaker 1: a hunting party, reappropriate bulls. We'll get five percent of

2109
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:37,680
Speaker 1: the vote every year. Um. But to go back when

2110
01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:39,880
Speaker 1: I said, like earlier, I talked about how political science

2111
01:49:39,920 --> 01:49:42,400
Speaker 1: couldn't show that we were polarized the society. What they

2112
01:49:42,479 --> 01:49:45,640
Speaker 1: did show was that the elected officials are polarized in

2113
01:49:45,760 --> 01:49:48,320
Speaker 1: terms of their voting and their rhetoric. Yeah. And I

2114
01:49:48,439 --> 01:49:52,840
Speaker 1: think it's interesting because the party it uh, you know,

2115
01:49:52,960 --> 01:49:56,600
Speaker 1: promotes extremists. And I think it's our responsibility, is the population,

2116
01:49:56,800 --> 01:50:00,240
Speaker 1: to moderate the politicians we elected in office. Right. That's

2117
01:50:00,240 --> 01:50:02,560
Speaker 1: a frustrating about the party system. And it's like a

2118
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:04,720
Speaker 1: thing you watch again and again, whether it be politicians

2119
01:50:04,760 --> 01:50:09,639
Speaker 1: you really admire, um, and then they go to try

2120
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:14,120
Speaker 1: to secure a party nomination and you have to watch

2121
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:19,320
Speaker 1: the very painful process of them morphing into of their beliefs,

2122
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:22,080
Speaker 1: morphing into this like thing. We're like, oh, wow, all

2123
01:50:22,160 --> 01:50:27,280
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you mirror you magically, now mirror man.

2124
01:50:27,400 --> 01:50:29,920
Speaker 1: Some of it's just oh, it's so sad. Man, let's

2125
01:50:29,920 --> 01:50:34,960
Speaker 1: just end on that. It's so sad. I need to

2126
01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:37,320
Speaker 1: go back to never talk all this kind of stuff. Man,

2127
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:40,479
Speaker 1: it's important, and I think there's a way to do

2128
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:43,040
Speaker 1: it where we don't have to be inflammatory. Right, Like,

2129
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:46,760
Speaker 1: we're all fully functional adults. We all have our own

2130
01:50:46,760 --> 01:50:49,759
Speaker 1: political leanings and our own thoughts on on on issues.

2131
01:50:49,800 --> 01:50:53,559
Speaker 1: There's no reason why we can't uh find out where

2132
01:50:53,720 --> 01:50:56,559
Speaker 1: our avenues of agreement are and say, okay, we can

2133
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:59,280
Speaker 1: set aside our differences on completely irrelevant topics and at

2134
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:02,400
Speaker 1: least have unified front you know, on federal lands or

2135
01:51:02,439 --> 01:51:04,160
Speaker 1: whatever other issue you might be looking at where we

2136
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:08,559
Speaker 1: share consensus. Right, Yeah, yeah, I say yeah. But then

2137
01:51:08,560 --> 01:51:10,280
Speaker 1: I also realized that I'm in many ways trying to

2138
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:13,280
Speaker 1: put a positive I'm in many ways like I'm I

2139
01:51:13,280 --> 01:51:14,960
Speaker 1: don't want to say I'm a single issue guy, but

2140
01:51:15,080 --> 01:51:20,920
Speaker 1: I'm focused. Uh, I'm focused very heavily on wildlife issues

2141
01:51:21,080 --> 01:51:25,439
Speaker 1: and issues that affect hunters and fishermen. And it's it's

2142
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:28,719
Speaker 1: like a self fulfilling thing because those are the issues

2143
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:33,080
Speaker 1: I'm I know most about and can speak to most competently,

2144
01:51:33,960 --> 01:51:36,679
Speaker 1: you know, And um, yeah, and I tend to view

2145
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:42,000
Speaker 1: the world somewhat myopically or I stay on that stuff.

2146
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:46,760
Speaker 1: And so I always talk about how like all this

2147
01:51:46,920 --> 01:51:50,439
Speaker 1: coming together kumbaya stuff, But by that I always mean

2148
01:51:50,479 --> 01:51:53,080
Speaker 1: I hope you come together to think what I think. Yeah,

2149
01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:56,200
Speaker 1: I mean I want, And it's like, I hope you

2150
01:51:56,320 --> 01:52:00,160
Speaker 1: come together with me on what I want. I mean.

2151
01:52:00,200 --> 01:52:01,639
Speaker 1: On the one hand, I look at it and as like, man,

2152
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:04,920
Speaker 1: are we just like chasing like a utopia that doesn't

2153
01:52:04,920 --> 01:52:06,840
Speaker 1: exist with this keeping public stuff? But on another it's

2154
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:09,080
Speaker 1: like if we're just up front, it's like, listen, the

2155
01:52:09,120 --> 01:52:11,120
Speaker 1: way that we're gonna do this is we're not going

2156
01:52:11,200 --> 01:52:14,720
Speaker 1: to advocate for anything except this one stance. You know.

2157
01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:17,200
Speaker 1: It's like we don't even have to debate any of

2158
01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:19,439
Speaker 1: the other stime. You know why we're gonna win because

2159
01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:24,200
Speaker 1: our guy is carved under the damn mountain. Yeah, I

2160
01:52:24,320 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 1: like that. Roosevelts on the mountain like that. Every politician

2161
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:30,479
Speaker 1: wants to liken themselves to Roosevelt. That's what Roosevelt is

2162
01:52:30,560 --> 01:52:33,200
Speaker 1: popular in history. Gives the public land system. So it's

2163
01:52:33,240 --> 01:52:36,639
Speaker 1: like we're already winning. You put up a guy that's

2164
01:52:36,680 --> 01:52:39,479
Speaker 1: gonna piss on this whole system and flush it down

2165
01:52:39,520 --> 01:52:42,200
Speaker 1: the drain and make it the future Americans don't have

2166
01:52:42,439 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 1: access to public lands and national parks and refuges and

2167
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:49,000
Speaker 1: national forest and then get your ass carved on the mountain.

2168
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:53,519
Speaker 1: Ain't gonna happen. To think, ain't gonna happen. That's why

2169
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:56,839
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna win. And I think the mountain speaks.

2170
01:52:56,880 --> 01:52:58,280
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of people who are fired

2171
01:52:58,360 --> 01:53:01,000
Speaker 1: up about this, right, and I think sportsmen groups have

2172
01:53:01,120 --> 01:53:03,800
Speaker 1: been doing the heavy lifting for a long time, um,

2173
01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:08,360
Speaker 1: and I think it's time that the entire recreational spectrum

2174
01:53:08,960 --> 01:53:13,080
Speaker 1: gets its act together and targeting this federal land uh

2175
01:53:13,520 --> 01:53:16,640
Speaker 1: kind of avenue. Right. Like, I've noticed that a lot

2176
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:21,800
Speaker 1: of non hunting outdoors groups their messaging seems to just

2177
01:53:21,920 --> 01:53:24,240
Speaker 1: revolve around the national parks. I'm like, the national parks

2178
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:26,800
Speaker 1: percent of the public land, and they're like, come on,

2179
01:53:26,920 --> 01:53:29,000
Speaker 1: like they're not in danger. Oh yeah, it's all it's

2180
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:30,559
Speaker 1: all part of the broader I don't want to get

2181
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:35,920
Speaker 1: into it, okay, suid, Yeah, we are going squid jig

2182
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:43,200
Speaker 1: tonight to concluding thoughts, two more, I'll do one. I'll

2183
01:53:43,200 --> 01:53:48,720
Speaker 1: do one, and that is because I'm one, alright, It's

2184
01:53:48,760 --> 01:53:51,120
Speaker 1: because Steve brought up this story we're talking about before

2185
01:53:51,120 --> 01:53:52,640
Speaker 1: the podcast and my in laws, and I feel like

2186
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:54,920
Speaker 1: I just can't let that lie. There's a very funny

2187
01:53:55,200 --> 01:53:57,360
Speaker 1: your wife would listen to this? Oh yeah, why not?

2188
01:53:58,280 --> 01:54:01,080
Speaker 1: It's a funny story. I don't I don't mind telling it, Jerry.

2189
01:54:01,080 --> 01:54:02,280
Speaker 1: I'll get a kick out of it, as my father

2190
01:54:02,320 --> 01:54:06,160
Speaker 1: in law, Jerry. So when I early on in my

2191
01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:09,479
Speaker 1: wife and I relationship, I was we went to school

2192
01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:11,760
Speaker 1: in Colorado and we were down visiting my now in

2193
01:54:11,920 --> 01:54:15,559
Speaker 1: laws in southern Colorado and we were my now brother

2194
01:54:15,600 --> 01:54:17,960
Speaker 1: in law, my father in law, and UH and I

2195
01:54:18,080 --> 01:54:22,000
Speaker 1: were muzzle looader mule your hunting. And we went out

2196
01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:24,800
Speaker 1: in this truck, an old f two fifty with two

2197
01:54:24,840 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 1: gas tanks that we called Old Whitey, and it was

2198
01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:30,439
Speaker 1: bench seat. I was in the middle between my father

2199
01:54:30,520 --> 01:54:33,800
Speaker 1: in law and my brother in law, and we drove

2200
01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:39,440
Speaker 1: out to the National Forest we're hunting. And we got

2201
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:41,720
Speaker 1: out there in Old Whitey and we're like crawling along

2202
01:54:41,760 --> 01:54:43,480
Speaker 1: pretty slow, and I fig like, all right, we're gonna

2203
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:44,960
Speaker 1: get to the hunting spot. But he's just gonna like

2204
01:54:45,080 --> 01:54:47,320
Speaker 1: drive along pretty slowly. Maybe we don't want to spook anything.

2205
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:48,760
Speaker 1: And I was a very new hunter at this time too,

2206
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:52,320
Speaker 1: so I was like unsure of the procedure. Anyways, We're

2207
01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:54,680
Speaker 1: just crawling along and crawling along and just waiting to

2208
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:57,640
Speaker 1: get to the spot. And that you know, I'm think

2209
01:54:57,680 --> 01:54:59,680
Speaker 1: you got this taken forever, like this take and a

2210
01:54:59,720 --> 01:55:03,080
Speaker 1: half day. It's taking prime hunting hours. And I turned

2211
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:04,560
Speaker 1: to the left at some point because I've been talking

2212
01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:07,440
Speaker 1: to my brother in law and we noticed that as

2213
01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:10,360
Speaker 1: we're idling up this hill. I was actually about to

2214
01:55:10,360 --> 01:55:11,400
Speaker 1: say what it was, but I don't want to do

2215
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:13,720
Speaker 1: that to their hunting spot. As we're idling up this hill,

2216
01:55:14,120 --> 01:55:17,640
Speaker 1: we notice that Jerry is just flat out snoring behind

2217
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:20,280
Speaker 1: the wheel and it looks like I'm asleep for some time, man,

2218
01:55:20,440 --> 01:55:23,280
Speaker 1: And we just, uh, we're just about died and laughing. Man,

2219
01:55:23,400 --> 01:55:24,720
Speaker 1: we were how like, I mean, he was going like

2220
01:55:24,760 --> 01:55:27,520
Speaker 1: a half a mile an hour and uh yeah. So

2221
01:55:27,600 --> 01:55:29,760
Speaker 1: now I'm convinced when Jerry goes out there and hunts,

2222
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:31,720
Speaker 1: like half the time, he's just taking a nap. You know.

2223
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:36,480
Speaker 1: My dad's hunting stories, Um, as he's older, we're always

2224
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:39,600
Speaker 1: like and there was like and there it was under

2225
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:44,000
Speaker 1: my tree. Yeah. Yeah, because the reason your stories all

2226
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:46,040
Speaker 1: start the way is because you periodically wake up and

2227
01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:47,920
Speaker 1: look around and which just all of a sudden see

2228
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:50,600
Speaker 1: deer there, but they never like approached because you slept

2229
01:55:50,640 --> 01:55:52,960
Speaker 1: through the apro I mean, they're very good at napping.

2230
01:55:53,040 --> 01:55:54,640
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to up my napping game.

2231
01:55:55,040 --> 01:55:57,680
Speaker 1: Jeff Fox really has that great skit where he's in

2232
01:55:57,800 --> 01:56:01,040
Speaker 1: the tree and Buddy supposedly walks up learning there. He goes, hey, Jeff,

2233
01:56:01,240 --> 01:56:03,080
Speaker 1: what are you doing? You can sleep it up there,

2234
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:11,600
Speaker 1: and Jeff like, no, no, I was praying, Oh that okay,

2235
01:56:11,640 --> 01:56:13,800
Speaker 1: what was your last one? That was your second last one?

2236
01:56:13,880 --> 01:56:15,000
Speaker 1: All right, if you want me to do it, I

2237
01:56:15,080 --> 01:56:17,160
Speaker 1: don't want to ramble and take your listeners too much

2238
01:56:17,200 --> 01:56:20,280
Speaker 1: time from your list quick. Yeah. So what I've noticed,

2239
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:22,360
Speaker 1: you know, because I didn't grow up in a hunting family, Um,

2240
01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:25,280
Speaker 1: what I've noticed as I've started hunting, that's kind of

2241
01:56:25,320 --> 01:56:27,440
Speaker 1: irrelevant all the politics and stuff we've been talking about,

2242
01:56:27,560 --> 01:56:31,640
Speaker 1: is that I've gained much more appreciation for landscapes that

2243
01:56:31,720 --> 01:56:35,360
Speaker 1: I previously had. Like, you know, I think before it

2244
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:36,880
Speaker 1: was very much in the line of like, yeah, I

2245
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:40,120
Speaker 1: like the alpine landscape right like go backpack in this year,

2246
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 1: or the Trinity Alps, and I love going through Stage

2247
01:56:44,040 --> 01:56:46,440
Speaker 1: Brush and like Antelope Country, Like I just love it now,

2248
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 1: And I think I don't think I appreciated it as

2249
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:55,280
Speaker 1: much before I started interacting with the landscape. I'm like, oh, well,

2250
01:56:55,360 --> 01:56:57,080
Speaker 1: this is how it functions, Like this is the utility

2251
01:56:57,120 --> 01:56:58,840
Speaker 1: of this landscape, Like this is what lives here, and

2252
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:00,760
Speaker 1: this is how it lives and and it's really just

2253
01:57:00,920 --> 01:57:04,800
Speaker 1: increased my appreciation for the land in a dramatic way. Yeah,

2254
01:57:05,200 --> 01:57:07,360
Speaker 1: I hear you loud clear on that. Man. You learn

2255
01:57:07,440 --> 01:57:09,920
Speaker 1: to look at the land. Yeah, you read it. You

2256
01:57:10,040 --> 01:57:11,880
Speaker 1: learn how to look at it, like I love driving

2257
01:57:11,920 --> 01:57:18,160
Speaker 1: through Nevada. Barry Loe. Yeah, Barry Lopez, who, if anything,

2258
01:57:18,320 --> 01:57:21,080
Speaker 1: is uneasy with hunting, but he writes about he spends

2259
01:57:21,080 --> 01:57:24,720
Speaker 1: a lot of time with indigenous hunters and um, he

2260
01:57:25,080 --> 01:57:31,480
Speaker 1: has a beautiful piece he wrote where he they he's

2261
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:36,600
Speaker 1: traveling with some asketball hunters and they come across a bear,

2262
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:40,280
Speaker 1: a grizzly out on the tundra, and he gets into

2263
01:57:40,520 --> 01:57:43,800
Speaker 1: what he sees when he sees a grizzly, which is

2264
01:57:45,120 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 1: he sees the moment there's a bear right there. He says.

2265
01:57:49,840 --> 01:57:53,600
Speaker 1: His companions see the grizzly, and they see a long

2266
01:57:53,880 --> 01:57:58,000
Speaker 1: narrative that took place before their arrival, and they see

2267
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:01,520
Speaker 1: a long narrative that will play out after their departure.

2268
01:58:02,720 --> 01:58:07,040
Speaker 1: It's like they see a timeline that they entered into.

2269
01:58:08,440 --> 01:58:10,280
Speaker 1: And I think that that's one of the things that

2270
01:58:10,440 --> 01:58:14,880
Speaker 1: that hunting teaches you, is that when you're looking at something,

2271
01:58:14,920 --> 01:58:20,720
Speaker 1: you're catching it in a moment, Even things like successional forests.

2272
01:58:21,240 --> 01:58:24,720
Speaker 1: When I look at a forest fire and they're and

2273
01:58:24,880 --> 01:58:27,400
Speaker 1: people like, oh, the anchors were destroyed. I look at

2274
01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:30,320
Speaker 1: a forest fire and I'm like, I'm already pictured sea

2275
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:33,720
Speaker 1: bitch in ten years deer and elk, you know what

2276
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:36,120
Speaker 1: I mean, Like like you learn to like see this

2277
01:58:36,320 --> 01:58:41,920
Speaker 1: thing that you know goes on and goes before ye

2278
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:45,800
Speaker 1: and seeing elk out on your winter range, it's like

2279
01:58:45,880 --> 01:58:48,880
Speaker 1: somebody like there's nope, but you see this thing playing out,

2280
01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:52,720
Speaker 1: Like how that thing uses the landscape now where it

2281
01:58:52,840 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: probably came from, where it's going to go next. There

2282
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:58,360
Speaker 1: are many ways to get there. Hunting you just the

2283
01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:00,360
Speaker 1: way that forces you to get there. There are many

2284
01:59:00,400 --> 01:59:03,000
Speaker 1: ways to learn to see the natural world that way,

2285
01:59:03,360 --> 01:59:05,800
Speaker 1: and we by no means have a monopoly on it

2286
01:59:07,120 --> 01:59:09,440
Speaker 1: um But hunting is the way that gets you there

2287
01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:13,520
Speaker 1: very quickly because because it makes it relevant, it makes

2288
01:59:13,560 --> 01:59:16,160
Speaker 1: it relevant to you. And um, earlier I said, we're

2289
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:19,240
Speaker 1: pragmatic beings, were all full a little selfish. We like

2290
01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:22,560
Speaker 1: things to be relevant to us. That's true. Yeah, any

2291
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:27,280
Speaker 1: concluding thoughts already gave him mine now that, but now

2292
01:59:27,320 --> 01:59:32,080
Speaker 1: that Yannie gave my perch flies. Um um. A lot

2293
01:59:32,120 --> 01:59:34,080
Speaker 1: of people write and frustrated they can't buy a meat

2294
01:59:34,080 --> 01:59:35,320
Speaker 1: Eat or T shirt. But you can go on to

2295
01:59:35,440 --> 01:59:39,280
Speaker 1: Hunt Eat. We have some. You guys are gonna have some.

2296
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:42,640
Speaker 1: Are we gonna get more? So Yannie T Shirt company

2297
01:59:42,680 --> 01:59:49,360
Speaker 1: who we boycotted over the perch fly issue, um sold you.

2298
01:59:49,840 --> 01:59:52,520
Speaker 1: Hunt Eat sold us meat Eat your t shirts. Yeah,

2299
01:59:52,640 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 1: we made some people bought them all how long ago?

2300
01:59:56,960 --> 02:00:00,360
Speaker 1: How long ago is the last one sold? Year? Really? Wow?

2301
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:06,680
Speaker 1: And you still got out some we've reprinted. It's just

2302
02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:09,440
Speaker 1: like the people that right in because the Meat Eater

2303
02:00:09,560 --> 02:00:12,520
Speaker 1: store is a mass. It's like, dude, you're right, I

2304
02:00:12,640 --> 02:00:16,560
Speaker 1: just trying to defend it, but it's just like a mass. Yeah.

2305
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:18,840
Speaker 1: But right now I know that we have some actually

2306
02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 1: add the printer cks. I know we're gonna have shirts

2307
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:24,520
Speaker 1: for Wednesday, like you guys are making more. Remember we

2308
02:00:24,720 --> 02:00:27,360
Speaker 1: looked at the proofs. No, but no, I'm saying Hunt

2309
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:30,760
Speaker 1: EAT's gonna make more than that order has not in place.

2310
02:00:30,880 --> 02:00:33,360
Speaker 1: There's gonna be more more meat Eater T shirts at

2311
02:00:33,360 --> 02:00:35,480
Speaker 1: theat you're still Hunt Eats, still selling the meat Eater

2312
02:00:35,560 --> 02:00:41,440
Speaker 1: Hunt Eats. Yeah right, all right? That was was that long?

2313
02:00:41,600 --> 02:00:48,120
Speaker 1: Was long? That was? It was good though it low attention.

2314
02:00:48,320 --> 02:00:50,720
Speaker 1: Thanks for the low attention to sons of bitches. I

2315
02:00:50,760 --> 02:00:51,680
Speaker 1: hope you've got through that.