Speaker 1: Welcome to part two of the Nick Yaris story on
Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction. We've already heard about Nick's surviving sexual assault,
Speaker 1: has misspent young adulthood, the lie that turned the authorities
Speaker 1: hell bent on his conviction, Gladiator Sunday's suicide, torture, and
Speaker 1: then with a court date that could have led to
Speaker 1: his freedom in sight, he unintentionally finds himself escaping from
Speaker 1: death row, only to turn himself in instead of committing
Speaker 1: suicide by shark, I mean, seriously, what the actual fuck?
Speaker 1: And we're still just halfway. We pick up with Nick
Speaker 1: again on death row in Florida, where he was awaiting
Speaker 1: transfer back to Pennsylvania and where he ran into Jesse
Speaker 1: to Pharaoh, who was the life partner and father of
Speaker 1: the children of Sunny Jacobs, who may remember was one
Speaker 1: of the most extraordinary episodes of Rowful Conviction. I think
Speaker 1: it was season one episode four. Jesse, who ends up
Speaker 1: crazy enough on death row in Florida with Nick, was
Speaker 1: later executed in a botched execution and worthy electric chair
Speaker 1: quote unquote malfunctioned and his head caught fire. It's a gruesome,
Speaker 1: gruesome story, and even more so because he was an
Speaker 1: actually innocent man and get ready for this. At the
Speaker 1: same time, Nick, on death Row again in Florida, was
Speaker 1: sharing that pod with one of the most notorious inmates
Speaker 1: in the history of America, Ted Bundy. Fasten your seatbelts
Speaker 1: for part two of nick Yarris Unwrongful Conviction. I knew
Speaker 1: the beating that was waiting on me, I knew the
Speaker 1: torture that was waiting on me, and I turned myself
Speaker 1: in and I went back to Pennsylvania and I faced
Speaker 1: the music because I told a lie, Mrs Craig Jason,
Speaker 1: It's never stopped bothering me. Man. I told a lie
Speaker 1: to get out of the copslide. But that's when they
Speaker 1: have the story. I told a lie about Aman's murder
Speaker 1: man and shamed her family, disrespected mine. I canna live
Speaker 1: with that man, so I decided to go back, but
Speaker 1: first I had to sit in freaking Florida for eight
Speaker 1: months down there with Ted Bundy. When Florida's Death Row
Speaker 1: and I meet, of all people, Jesse Treferro, an innocent man.
Speaker 1: Jesse was married to a very good friend of mine,
Speaker 1: now called Sonny Jacobs, and she lives over in Ireland
Speaker 1: with Peter Pringle. Her partner who was also sentenced to death,
Speaker 1: and they got the Sunny Foundation where they helped people
Speaker 1: who got out of prison. And I didn't know any
Speaker 1: of this. Oh I knew was this very attractive, sweet
Speaker 1: hearted Buddhist man told me, hey, man, take me back
Speaker 1: to Pennsylvania with me. These crazy bestards are trying to
Speaker 1: kill me. Man, I said, Jesse would happen, he said, Man,
Speaker 1: I picked up a hitchhiker. He kills the coup. They
Speaker 1: put me and my wife death row, but we didn't
Speaker 1: kill nobody. That's stuck with me, you know. So I
Speaker 1: go back to Pennsylvania after eight months of Florida, and
Speaker 1: they added thirty five years to my sentence in the
Speaker 1: state of Florida for the escape and related charges, and
Speaker 1: I knew I was done. I had a hundred and
Speaker 1: five years. There is no such thing as DNA testing.
Speaker 1: I ruined my appeals with absconding. You know the law, Jason,
Speaker 1: If you run, you forfeit your appeals, You're done. So
Speaker 1: I was sitting there and I had just met a
Speaker 1: woman who told me that I had a fascinating mind
Speaker 1: and she wanted to spend time talking to me. And
Speaker 1: I felt absolutely horrible about that, and then I get
Speaker 1: hand in a newspaper and it's almost thrown away. And
Speaker 1: the next thing I know, I'm the very first man
Speaker 1: in history to seek DNA testing from death throw. In March,
Speaker 1: I followed my first petition, and that historic event led
Speaker 1: me to watch a hundred and ten men get set
Speaker 1: free before me. I watched the mall, Gary Dotson, I
Speaker 1: watched all these dudes. I watched Kurt Bloodworth go out
Speaker 1: and be the first death row prisoner exonerated, but he
Speaker 1: filed years after I did. I had to watch him
Speaker 1: all go home and walk free, and none of them
Speaker 1: spoke beautifully, and I felt like, man, if I ever
Speaker 1: get my chance, I'm going to do justice to this man.
Speaker 1: And then meanwhile I meet a man whose innocent named
Speaker 1: Walter oh Grod. You see, I've been through so much
Speaker 1: at this point, twenty years of prison, I'm sick with
Speaker 1: hepatitis C. All the DNA evidence has either been destroyed
Speaker 1: or missing or spilled in transit. I have no hope.
Speaker 1: And I get moved to Greene County super Max Prison
Speaker 1: and the staff there knew me from years ago from
Speaker 1: Huntington's and knew I was cool, so they cut me
Speaker 1: a break, and they let me become a block worker
Speaker 1: for a month where I could come out of my
Speaker 1: cell and sweep up. And I meet this prisoner named
Speaker 1: Walter oh Grod and he tries to speak to me.
Speaker 1: But Walter has been convicted of put a little girl
Speaker 1: in the TV box and leaving her on the street
Speaker 1: corner in Philadelphia. And I don't want no ship like
Speaker 1: that bothering me. I just lost everything. The wife that
Speaker 1: I met just before the DNA testing began walked out
Speaker 1: on me. I lost all the DNA evidence. I don't
Speaker 1: want no trouble. And there's these two men in the
Speaker 1: prison torment him, Hackett and Spence. They broke into Walter's
Speaker 1: house and they tried to kill his brother, and they
Speaker 1: murdered his sister in law to be. But I didn't care.
Speaker 1: I had enough troubles on my own, you know. But
Speaker 1: when I went back at myself and I thought about
Speaker 1: how I treated Walter, I thought, that's it, Nick Wigett out,
Speaker 1: You've got no humanity. The very next day, I went
Speaker 1: over to water and I began. At first, I began
Speaker 1: writing letters to his lawyer. I would decipher Walter's efforts
Speaker 1: to write a letter in Minutia, an entire eight by
Speaker 1: eleven page would be filled with micro lines of writing,
Speaker 1: not just single line. I mean he would compress as
Speaker 1: many possible words into one page in desperation to get
Speaker 1: information out. I would take that apart and write to
Speaker 1: his lawyers as best that I could and help. I
Speaker 1: told Hackett in Spence that if they kept bothering Water
Speaker 1: that I'd smashed their face and that they had time
Speaker 1: to just think about one thing. I wasn't no fucking joke,
Speaker 1: and if they bothered my friend again, I was going
Speaker 1: to hurt him. I told the rest of the dudes
Speaker 1: on death Row I didn't care what they thought. I
Speaker 1: was standing up for Water. A man named Tom Loewenstein,
Speaker 1: whose father had been murdered. He was a journalist from
Speaker 1: Louisiana contacted me and want to write a book about
Speaker 1: my story and said it was incredible. I said, Tom,
Speaker 1: tell Walter's story, leave me alone. This man needs to
Speaker 1: help more than me. No one on death Row does
Speaker 1: things like that. But I believe so much in this
Speaker 1: man that had started to make me feel good about it.
Speaker 1: In the past, I had already done legal work and
Speaker 1: help get other prisoners off death row, I wrote to
Speaker 1: their mother's. In fact, the administration told me one of
Speaker 1: the things that made me the most dangerous prisoner had
Speaker 1: ever dealt with is so many men cared about me
Speaker 1: that whenever guards or anything did stuff to me, they
Speaker 1: would all go on hunger protests and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I said, well, I can't help, but that I'm a
Speaker 1: caring person. I told my mom I wouldn't lose that humanity.
Speaker 1: So while I'm trying to get water help, I keep
Speaker 1: feeling weaker and weaker. Jay, something's wrong inside man. And
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, my brother died in August,
Speaker 1: and I knew over the past seven months after being diagnosed,
Speaker 1: would have the tightest seed that I was in bad condition,
Speaker 1: But I had to hold off. My parents were burying
Speaker 1: their youngest child, so I couldn't ask to be executed
Speaker 1: then when I was really suffering, so I waited, you know.
Speaker 1: And the whole precipice of it all was I lost
Speaker 1: my eyesight for three days one time because of the
Speaker 1: medical toxins that they were given me to fight the infection,
Speaker 1: pumping my body full interfere on and riververe on. Well,
Speaker 1: I had to go tell Walter that I couldn't help
Speaker 1: him no more, and it broke his heart. But I
Speaker 1: told him before I told anybody else, that I was
Speaker 1: going to be asking to be executed for a crime
Speaker 1: that I didn't commit, rather than just died like Dale
Speaker 1: Carter did. There was a dude convicted of rape and
Speaker 1: murder on my pod in Green County Prison, and two
Speaker 1: thousand and one he died of an impacted bow from
Speaker 1: the onset of hepatitis C while nurses stood in front
Speaker 1: of his cell, knowing he was convicted of raping and
Speaker 1: murdering the woman, and they laughed at him suffering. And
Speaker 1: I knew that's what my fate was. They were going
Speaker 1: to taunt me, they were going to make me miserable,
Speaker 1: and they were going to laugh in my face at
Speaker 1: my death. And I said no, no, no, no. In fact,
Speaker 1: I decided I was is going to fulfill my efforts.
Speaker 1: The only reason I ever learned how to speak with
Speaker 1: any modicum of decency was after the escape, when they
Speaker 1: beat my face and broke my teeth, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: look at myself without flinching. So I took all the
Speaker 1: photographs off my wall and I put one of myself
Speaker 1: up as a seventeen year old boy, and I began
Speaker 1: to speak politely to this person. Every day, I quietly
Speaker 1: began to speak to this man, knowing he was the
Speaker 1: only one who going to get me out of here.
Speaker 1: And that transitioned into reading beautiful literature to this photograph.
Speaker 1: It was such an empowerment to read beautiful passages from
Speaker 1: Gabron as I stood before my own photograph. Or even better,
Speaker 1: I practiced my death speech oh over and over beautifully.
Speaker 1: I had it down. You see. The only thing I
Speaker 1: really feared was that on the day that they executed me,
Speaker 1: I would mess it up, that I wouldn't have the
Speaker 1: acumen the poise to say the lovely thing that I
Speaker 1: had to say. It was so important to me to
Speaker 1: talk and speak beautifully for myself that I rehearsed this
Speaker 1: beautiful death speech for giving them for taking my life.
Speaker 1: Remember the speech always it's a reference to the new
Speaker 1: Trino and how the neutrino passes through the Earth unnoticed
Speaker 1: by us all. But this new Trino is unstoppable. It
Speaker 1: emanates from the Earth and passes through whatever surface it meets,
Speaker 1: regardless of density, strength, power doesn't matter. And I was
Speaker 1: like a new Trino passing through their lives. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: just like that neutrita that they allowed to pass through
Speaker 1: in ignorance, so too were they ignorant of the loving,
Speaker 1: caring person that I made myself into be, and that
Speaker 1: I forgave them for killing me. I apologized for embarrassing
Speaker 1: my family, and I accepted my faith. Mm hmmm, mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I want to get into the exoneration because you know
Speaker 1: the miracle that awaited you, that you had just almost
Speaker 1: given up hope of ever having, which there would be
Speaker 1: very good reason that somebody in your situation would give
Speaker 1: up hope and that you might have ended up either
Speaker 1: executed or having taken your own life like so many
Speaker 1: other people. It that you knew is that in two
Speaker 1: thousand three, fast forwarding God, this is a twenty two
Speaker 1: years since the original date right um and two thousand three,
Speaker 1: a doctor named Edward Blake tested the gloves, fingernail scrapings,
Speaker 1: and sperm that was found on inside of the victim,
Speaker 1: Mrs Craig, and it was determined at that time all
Speaker 1: of the DNA that was found was from the same person.
Speaker 1: And on July two of two thousand three, you were
Speaker 1: excluded as the source of any of that biological material.
Speaker 1: And on September three, so this is now another two
Speaker 1: months and a day later, your conviction was vacated by
Speaker 1: the court. You became at that time like the d
Speaker 1: DNA exoneration in America and the thirteenth from death throw.
Speaker 1: And I'm getting the chills when as I say that. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, we have to talk about that, right, What
Speaker 1: was that? Like? You know, I wish I could tell
Speaker 1: you it was something really big. But the truth is
Speaker 1: was still in prison until January two tho four. The
Speaker 1: federal court gave Pennsylvania the right to retry me as
Speaker 1: they would, and they drug it out, and they drug
Speaker 1: it out, and it kept going on. So in the
Speaker 1: end they botched my release. After a week of telling
Speaker 1: me I was going home on Monday, they came and
Speaker 1: told me, January eleven, you're going home, neck pack your stuff.
Speaker 1: We'll be back for you in an hour. They didn't
Speaker 1: come back on what day was at January eleven, You're
Speaker 1: going home and pack your stuff, getting out of here.
Speaker 1: The whole argument was do we send him back to Florida,
Speaker 1: do we let him go? What do we do? What
Speaker 1: do we do? What do we do? So wait, You've
Speaker 1: already been exonerated, So why in the world did you
Speaker 1: have to go back to Florida. It was a possibility
Speaker 1: that they would have to take me back to Florida
Speaker 1: and release me there because Florida's still had that thirty
Speaker 1: five years sentence on me. So Pennsylvania had, of course
Speaker 1: dropped all the charges against me, but they were in
Speaker 1: the process us of negotiating with Florida, at which time
Speaker 1: my lawyer filed an application to have my sentence reduced
Speaker 1: because I was sentenced in Florida only because I was
Speaker 1: an escape b and convicted of murder. Everybody vacated their sentences.
Speaker 1: Everything's ready, but I'm dragging on the whole time. I'm
Speaker 1: sitting in a mental cell. They took me out of
Speaker 1: prison and put me into a restricted housing union meant
Speaker 1: for mentally impaired prisoners, because they rationalized that because of
Speaker 1: all the things that they've done to me, I was
Speaker 1: going to kill one of them as soon as my
Speaker 1: door opened up. And I swear to God, that's what
Speaker 1: they told me to my face. So meanwhile, I'm waiting.
Speaker 1: January eleven, they tell me I'm going home. January twelve,
Speaker 1: they told me the same thing. On January I was
Speaker 1: shown a photograph of my mother in the Delaware County
Speaker 1: newspaper holding up a photograph of me from the previous day,
Speaker 1: saying whereas my son he was supposed to be released
Speaker 1: on January fourteen. That photograph is very widely used in
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia area because January I was told I was
Speaker 1: going home, but at five pm that night they said
Speaker 1: it was too late. On January and four, I packed
Speaker 1: up my belongings, said goodbye to everybody, and I got
Speaker 1: in a van and I drove out of the prison,
Speaker 1: only to be stopped at the second barrier and told
Speaker 1: we made a mistake. You have to go back. It
Speaker 1: was the testing moment of testing moments in my life,
Speaker 1: and I handled it with grace because I knew this
Speaker 1: was important. They put me back into prison, and they said,
Speaker 1: what can we do for you? This is nothing to
Speaker 1: do with this. We just simply have to get some
Speaker 1: paperwork from Florida done and we will let you go.
Speaker 1: I said how long? They said, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: I said, well, my parents are across the street with
Speaker 1: all the assembled press. How long do you think they're
Speaker 1: going to stand out there in the snow. He said, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: We told with your parents. They're well aware of the situation.
Speaker 1: They're not put off by this. They understand there's a lawyer.
Speaker 1: This is crazy. Elliot Shirker, attorney at law, put a
Speaker 1: lawyer on a plane in Fort Laiderdale and flew to Taahassee,
Speaker 1: Florida to have my parole papers stamped so I could
Speaker 1: be released by one o'clock that day. That's the power
Speaker 1: of having my wonderful attorney, Peter Goldberger, have that kind
Speaker 1: of influence over friendships, because he told people, look, my
Speaker 1: clients innocent, but I need some help. So Elliot Shirker,
Speaker 1: on his own dime, sends a lawyer by plane to
Speaker 1: the state capital, faxes the paperwork over, and at one
Speaker 1: o'clock they let me out. The crazy thing is they
Speaker 1: dropped all the charges. I was allowed to have my
Speaker 1: conviction vacated, and then the state attorney appealed it and
Speaker 1: got it reinstated. While I was in France speaking before
Speaker 1: the League the National and told that if I go
Speaker 1: back to Florida that I can voluntarily resume my thirty
Speaker 1: five your sentence there if I so choose. So I
Speaker 1: guess it's fair to say you won't be going to
Speaker 1: Florida anytime soon. I don't think I'm gonna go to
Speaker 1: Florida and commit any crimes. But I have been there
Speaker 1: to thank Elliot Shirker. I went down there to thank
Speaker 1: that lawyer to help me get free. And by the way, Jeff,
Speaker 1: I think you're an amazing man. Thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you. But I had this amazing gift given to
Speaker 1: me by this Baptist preacher who was a sergeant in
Speaker 1: the prison, and he came in and he spent these
Speaker 1: two hours with me, and I'm telling you, man, he
Speaker 1: made every officer on shift come and shake my hand.
Speaker 1: Dudes were coming up to me and saying the same thing.
Speaker 1: It's a hard job. Sorry, sometimes we have to hurt men.
Speaker 1: But you're a good man. Nick. I respect you. Thank
Speaker 1: you for helping other prisoners when they were down. I'm like, fuck,
Speaker 1: I'm growing, like this is building me up so much.
Speaker 1: Jason Nett. When I walked out of that prison and
Speaker 1: got into the arms of my father, I knew I
Speaker 1: didn't have a goddamn thing to say. So I walked
Speaker 1: up to the assembled media. I said, Walter oh Grad
Speaker 1: and Ernie Simmons or two men in the prison behind
Speaker 1: me because someone sends some help for them, Thank you
Speaker 1: and goodbye. I knew everybody wouldn't listen to me. I
Speaker 1: knew that they would think I was crazy if I
Speaker 1: went on this big rant or anything. I did the
Speaker 1: honorable thing. I said, we need a moratorium on the
Speaker 1: deaf penalty, and I got some friends here. I'm going
Speaker 1: to help. They didn't think I was serious. Only ten
Speaker 1: months after my release. When I got set free, I
Speaker 1: had no medical help nothing. I had to heal myself
Speaker 1: with my parents help. Ten months later, I'm in London
Speaker 1: speaking in Parliament and Kofi Annan listens to me speak,
Speaker 1: walks up to me and said, young man, you are
Speaker 1: one of the finest speakers I've ever heard in my life.
Speaker 1: Keep going hm. That was my empowerment when I realized
Speaker 1: that this education I gave myself because I went well
Speaker 1: past those five first books, I went crazy. I read
Speaker 1: all of the world's religions so that I could have
Speaker 1: respect for everyone's beliefs. I went out of my way
Speaker 1: to read and read and read every possible thing about
Speaker 1: history and our arts and sciences so I could be
Speaker 1: alive to the world. What was the point if I
Speaker 1: got out? So I even spent six years of my
Speaker 1: life studying psychology so I could understand the principles of
Speaker 1: what I would face. I am a human experiment of endurance,
Speaker 1: and for some magical reason, I'm built for it. I
Speaker 1: took this notion that I am everything I believed about
Speaker 1: myself while there, and I've expounded upon it now to
Speaker 1: teaching people about neuroplasticity, healing, the receptacle, and beautiful feeding frenzy.
Speaker 1: Your brain gets from being polite. You having a meticulous,
Speaker 1: polite behavior is your own healing. Your brain absorbs all
Speaker 1: of this neuron reciprocal healing from being nice. I didn't
Speaker 1: understand any of this. All I knew is that on
Speaker 1: the second day of my freedom, I had to go
Speaker 1: to the hospital to pick my brother up, who got
Speaker 1: hit by a car. Because that's an alcoholic crossing the road.
Speaker 1: He tended to get hit by cars. But my mother
Speaker 1: sat me down and she said, Nikki, do me a favor.
Speaker 1: Please listen to what I'm about to say to you.
Speaker 1: I need you to be a polite man so that
Speaker 1: when you meet people, you say yes sir, and no sir,
Speaker 1: and yes ma'am, and no, ma'am, because I want you
Speaker 1: to show respect for this family for what we've gone through.
Speaker 1: Because I got something to tell you, Nick. For you
Speaker 1: to get out of prison and not be a nice
Speaker 1: man is a waste of every one of my prayers
Speaker 1: and tears. Don't you Jare let me down? Wow, I
Speaker 1: didn't know. This is the basis of neural plasticity healing.
Speaker 1: If you can think about this, your brain when you
Speaker 1: go out and light up and smile has receptacles in
Speaker 1: it for you to go out and be gregariously nice
Speaker 1: and polite, your brain is actually erasing the PTSD in
Speaker 1: your brain. How is it that for the last hour
Speaker 1: or so, I've been able to sit here and talk
Speaker 1: about things that most people will be crushed by, and
Speaker 1: yet Jason knows this. I'm probably the happiest I've been
Speaker 1: in my life in the fifteen years of my freedom,
Speaker 1: so exponentially I've been able to take on this notion
Speaker 1: that I'm an athlete, and as an athlete and training
Speaker 1: in neural plasticity healing, I am like an Olympian. I
Speaker 1: have been doing this so well for so long with
Speaker 1: such a polite manner. I am not affected by the
Speaker 1: stresses that deteriorate our brains, cause heart attacks, stress, divorce.
Speaker 1: I don't have a need for substance abuse because I
Speaker 1: don't have the fissure within me that needs to be masked.
Speaker 1: I actually go around and I teach people in the
Speaker 1: corporate world how to empower themselves with kindness for the
Speaker 1: workforce to be the utmost beautiful boss. I go around
Speaker 1: and teach students about how their politeness makes them a
Speaker 1: better student, able to absorb more from their own self respect.
Speaker 1: I go around and I teach people how to handle
Speaker 1: fucked up ship. Sorry for the language, but since I
Speaker 1: did Joe Rogan's podcast, over a thousand people came to
Speaker 1: me and promised me they would no longer be abusive
Speaker 1: and killing themselves. A thousand man like dudes with the
Speaker 1: most brokenhearted, damaged lives. They come to me and they say,
Speaker 1: if you're doing what you're doing and you're happy because
Speaker 1: of it, I'm going to do this. Just listening to
Speaker 1: you talk, I swear to God changed my whole perspective.
Speaker 1: That too, is why I'm doing this. Jason. I listened
Speaker 1: to your podcasts, and the one thing that I really
Speaker 1: wanted to tell you. I was so glad that you
Speaker 1: were alive to caring about other species, not just humans.
Speaker 1: We can all feel that empathy and we all try
Speaker 1: for that, but when I saw that, you really likened
Speaker 1: it to your own happiness. You're well on your way
Speaker 1: to having neuralplacicity healing in your life. Whatever scars you've carried,
Speaker 1: you've already mastered him. You're now this fountain of foundation
Speaker 1: and hope for other people. You are now able to
Speaker 1: have a perspective that allows you freedom, just like me.
Speaker 1: But Dude, the way you go about it has been
Speaker 1: so different. This is why I told you you didn't
Speaker 1: have the earth dropped on your head a couple of
Speaker 1: times to make you do this, and for you to
Speaker 1: go out and make these efforts with Brandon Dacy or
Speaker 1: all these other people. Man, I'm like, why why is this?
Speaker 1: Then I get it. You're already tuned into your own healing.
Speaker 1: You know what the reward system in you is and
Speaker 1: why it's genuine to you. You're not doing this to
Speaker 1: be famous, Jason. I see the effort you made this
Speaker 1: week alone and half the ship. No one's even gonna know,
Speaker 1: are they. But inside your brain is feeding off this
Speaker 1: man just like me. It's profoundly making you a lovely
Speaker 1: person someone I've learned to really respect. You got the
Speaker 1: same message as me, but we came about it a
Speaker 1: different angles, brother, And I'm here to just tell you
Speaker 1: that's all I want. I want to go around and
Speaker 1: teach the kindness approach. I want to go to schools
Speaker 1: and get students to be amazing people. I want to
Speaker 1: have a purposeful life like you. I just want to
Speaker 1: do good. I don't care where I came from. Thank
Speaker 1: you for the kind words. Um, it's really humbling to
Speaker 1: hear those coming from you. I recognize, you know in myself.
Speaker 1: You know, I call it selfish altruism because I know
Speaker 1: that I feel, um really sort of tuned in, or
Speaker 1: however you would say it. You know, when I'm able
Speaker 1: to bring some hope to a hopeless place, to a
Speaker 1: person who needs it, sometimes even able to affectuate real change,
Speaker 1: bring somebody home, maybe help them after they get out,
Speaker 1: it's a It's an unbelievably rewarding thing. You know. It's
Speaker 1: funny when I meet somebody a stranger and we're talking
Speaker 1: wherever it might be, and they hear me talk, what
Speaker 1: do you do? And I talk about my living and
Speaker 1: I make a living this and that, and they say, well,
Speaker 1: but I also work on this other and they, you know,
Speaker 1: after a few minutes to say, you know, your voice changed,
Speaker 1: like you become so much more animated when you talk
Speaker 1: about this other work that. Yeah. So so I think
Speaker 1: I've yeah, you're absolutely right. We came and you know
Speaker 1: it's I had this revelation, nick Um. It was about
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. I was leaving Buckingham Correctional
Speaker 1: in Virginia somewhere, and it was about an hour and
Speaker 1: forty minutes from Richmond, you know, some maximum security prison,
Speaker 1: and I was visiting a couple of innocent guys there,
Speaker 1: Yen Zering and Tim right with the legal team and
Speaker 1: trying to you know, help them, uh in any way
Speaker 1: that I could. I spent three very focused hours, really
Speaker 1: you know, dialed in of course there's no phones in,
Speaker 1: there's no distractions, and and also it's when I feel
Speaker 1: most useful. So I walked out. It was maybe late winter,
Speaker 1: early spring, and I walked out of this prison through
Speaker 1: the yard and then out the doors, and those about
Speaker 1: forty degrees and so sleep a little bit outside. Whether
Speaker 1: it wasn't very nice at all, and I had this
Speaker 1: momentary revelation. I said, Wow, there's no place I'd rather
Speaker 1: be in, nothing i'd rather be doing. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: no saint, you know, so I don't want to make
Speaker 1: it sound like that. And I wish for everyone that
Speaker 1: you find something that gets you to that place. It's
Speaker 1: so many people doing such amazing things in the world,
Speaker 1: in so many different areas. You know, there's people that
Speaker 1: make my efforts look like a drop in the ocean.
Speaker 1: But I'm grateful to be a part of the movement
Speaker 1: and to be able to make a difference whenever I can,
Speaker 1: and and to be able to spend time with people
Speaker 1: like you, honestly is the great reward. This is what
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't really get. You
Speaker 1: throw out so much love and effort for everyone else,
Speaker 1: give it to you, give it to to you as well,
Speaker 1: and when you do, it shines. I mean, it's you see.
Speaker 1: I always carry my scars as a a noble approach
Speaker 1: to my toll in life that I have to pay,
Speaker 1: and one of the tolls I'll never stop paying for
Speaker 1: is to fight for Mrs Craig. When I got out,
Speaker 1: I was in a documentary called After Innocence with Phil
Speaker 1: Donahue and Barry Scheck and all them, and they filmed
Speaker 1: me going to the courthouse fighting to get the DNA
Speaker 1: to catch a killer. You know, I recognized my wrong,
Speaker 1: So if I'm willing to do that effort like that
Speaker 1: from my wrongs, I should have some of that effort
Speaker 1: from my right. We're not willing to do that without
Speaker 1: that ego blast bothering us about it, and that's wrong.
Speaker 1: My mother told me, when you go somewhere and you
Speaker 1: want to show people that you show respect for yourself,
Speaker 1: dress up nicely, make yourself feel good, show that you
Speaker 1: care about yourself, because that is a good example for
Speaker 1: when you go before someone to show them respect, you've
Speaker 1: as shown yourself enough care, enough wisdom to know that
Speaker 1: you care about yourself. And the reason that we should
Speaker 1: care about ourselves in this way is people who trust
Speaker 1: us and rely on us need us to know we're
Speaker 1: not just loving and strong for them, but for ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's that weakness about us that makes people apprehensive that
Speaker 1: will he capitulate? Will you give up? And we can't
Speaker 1: allow that. So I worked very hard to find that
Speaker 1: perspective that if I can love myself to craft a
Speaker 1: death speech when I yet know, just like today, I'm
Speaker 1: living under a death sentence every day anyway, I don't
Speaker 1: know when it's going to be Jason. The city is
Speaker 1: so chaotic me and you could get taken up by
Speaker 1: a taxicab, a bicyclist. We could die of choking on
Speaker 1: a pretzel. These are all realities today, right after all
Speaker 1: you've been through? Are you scared of a pretzel? Yeah? Man,
Speaker 1: you joke. But I I used to have a phobia
Speaker 1: because I watched the man choke the death in a
Speaker 1: prison cell because the guards thought he was tricking them
Speaker 1: and let him die. So there you go. So but
Speaker 1: the truth is that I realized that if every day
Speaker 1: I'm living with a death sentence, that I should not
Speaker 1: waste this last day with anger and stupid resentment. I
Speaker 1: have a really unique situation in which I have now
Speaker 1: a major motion picture being made about my life. I'm
Speaker 1: on pins and needles this week because a very famous
Speaker 1: actor and his agent have been watching the latest work
Speaker 1: of my director, and it's a possibility this lovely man
Speaker 1: would say yes to playing me as the lead role.
Speaker 1: And I know that would change things. I've recently gone
Speaker 1: through a spate of jobs trying to find any kind
Speaker 1: of employment in the area I am. I'm actually currently unemployed,
Speaker 1: and I recognize that it doesn't matter. I know myself
Speaker 1: to know I have talent and ality, and I'll bounce back.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to develop a television show based on
Speaker 1: what's happening now with my friend Walter, who I mentioned
Speaker 1: you see. One of the great pleasures of having come
Speaker 1: here to meet you is yesterday at the San Francisco
Speaker 1: airport to Philadelphia District Attorney's office called me personally, and
Speaker 1: the man that I spoke to told me he was
Speaker 1: very proud of me for the efforts I made, and
Speaker 1: it was one of the reasons he joined a district
Speaker 1: attorney's integrity unit. It touched me that he couldn't break
Speaker 1: protocol and tell me information about my friend Walter's case
Speaker 1: and the hearing that's coming up next month, but he
Speaker 1: wanted me to know that there's good people in that
Speaker 1: office willing to do the right thing, and that I
Speaker 1: shouldn't be worried. And I told him the only reason
Speaker 1: I rang was because I didn't want to embarrass his
Speaker 1: office by going on this podcast and giving me out
Speaker 1: wrong information and lamenting their efforts when I don't know.
Speaker 1: So I do know. My friend has the DNA evidence back.
Speaker 1: It does not match him. I can't say more than that.
Speaker 1: I'm precluded from saying anything. But they did do DNA
Speaker 1: evidence in Walter Ogrod's case and they're now waiting for
Speaker 1: his hearing next month and he should be released, amen, man.
Speaker 1: Then we'll be there for him with the support that
Speaker 1: he needs when he gets out. Anybody wishing to know
Speaker 1: about Walter oh Grad you can look up Death Rows Stories,
Speaker 1: season three, episode four. I gave up my opportunity to
Speaker 1: be on this show so that they could tell his story.
Speaker 1: Jigsaw Productions did a great work and that was what
Speaker 1: led to the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office investigating Walter's case.
Speaker 1: That Death Row Stories season three, episode four, it's Walter
Speaker 1: oh Grad O g R O D. Please do check
Speaker 1: it out, and he's gonna need a lot of support
Speaker 1: when he gets out, and we'll be publishing that information
Speaker 1: on the Rothel Conviction website and I'll be putting on
Speaker 1: my social media of course. It's Jason flam Nick for
Speaker 1: people who are listening now, and you've had a remarkable journey.
Speaker 1: Since you've been out, you had the one of them
Speaker 1: listened to episodes ever of the Joe Rogan podcast. I
Speaker 1: think your episode will be one of the most listened
Speaker 1: to of this podcast for people who want to get
Speaker 1: in touch with you to book you for doing speaking
Speaker 1: gigs or come and give a teaching or whatever. Usually
Speaker 1: social media works best. Facebook page. I'm on Twitter, Instagram,
Speaker 1: nick Yarris, that's Nick why a R R I S.
Speaker 1: That's nick Yaris y A R R I S. And
Speaker 1: of course it's n I c K right. I also
Speaker 1: have nick Yarris dot Org my website, and I have
Speaker 1: a really sincere platform. I try and go around and
Speaker 1: talk to either university students, school students, or I do
Speaker 1: corporate and I try and focus on two things, either
Speaker 1: the neuroplasicity, but I also cover media, and I also
Speaker 1: cover one of the best fields of all, which is
Speaker 1: our penology and how we need to work to change
Speaker 1: our pennology. And one of the great passions that I
Speaker 1: have personally is I want to see a change for
Speaker 1: prison officers. They have the highest mortality rates, the highest
Speaker 1: divorce rates, the highest rates of alcohol abuse in our services.
Speaker 1: Imagine Jason All the herds. These men have to live
Speaker 1: with and then they see me go free. One of
Speaker 1: the heartbreaking things is a man who stopped me, and
Speaker 1: I mean stomped the ship out of me for escaping,
Speaker 1: wrote me. An email said, dear Mr. Years, I got
Speaker 1: your email from one of your lawyers. In seven I
Speaker 1: beat the ship out of you for escaping for death
Speaker 1: row and I thought you were a scumbag piece of
Speaker 1: ship and I have to live with that, and I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: So I want to see that prison officers are giving
Speaker 1: at least a two year course in psychology so they
Speaker 1: don't become abusive, and that they don't kill themselves. Because
Speaker 1: everything that I got good came from that officer. He said, Boy,
Speaker 1: go in the cell. I promise you, if you read
Speaker 1: these books, you won't be angry. I can't stop thinking
Speaker 1: about the gift. I watched eleven men kill themselves. I
Speaker 1: watched as they burned the buildings around me during the riot.
Speaker 1: I had a prison officers try to use different serial
Speaker 1: killers to kill me. Over a three year period, I've
Speaker 1: endured so many horrors. I think I'm gonna lead them
Speaker 1: in prison and take the good home with me. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's um That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? And yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm with you. I think that we need to
Speaker 1: do a much better job training the people who are
Speaker 1: there to protect the rehabilitate, and of course monitor the
Speaker 1: people who are in our prison system. Of course we
Speaker 1: need to decarcerate this nation two point three million. We
Speaker 1: are not the most evil people in the world. We don't. Mark.
Speaker 1: Fourth largest industry is technology, right, that's crazy something billion
Speaker 1: dollar industry. And the fact is that obviously there's some
Speaker 1: correction officers who do very very bad things. There's also
Speaker 1: a lot of them to do. Men and women. Let's
Speaker 1: give it up like there's so many good men and women,
Speaker 1: and I love you for doing. Look if you left
Speaker 1: prison today as a prison officer and you dealt with
Speaker 1: the insanity of a man who mentally ill or somebody
Speaker 1: did something to you, please don't bring it home. I
Speaker 1: left everything in prison. Please do the same thing. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to say too, that, uh, you know, the
Speaker 1: fact that our prison conditions are so terrible affects the
Speaker 1: men and women who are there very nobly serving in
Speaker 1: a very difficult environment. That doesn't mean that they should
Speaker 1: be subjected to prisons That don't have air conditioning alongside
Speaker 1: the prisoners, that they should subject it to mold that
Speaker 1: we have had so many prisons now as a major
Speaker 1: scandals in Florida and other places. The mold affects everybody
Speaker 1: that works. Remember to TV, I remember at one point
Speaker 1: tuberculosis was in seventy of prisons. That's not made up
Speaker 1: like they had seventy infection rates in out of these
Speaker 1: county jails because overcrowding. So as so as a country,
Speaker 1: we need to do a much better job. It's this
Speaker 1: is America. It's two thousand nineteen. Come on, everybody. Well, Nick,
Speaker 1: all I can say is it's been an extraordinary experience
Speaker 1: for me getting to spend this time with you. We're
Speaker 1: gonna go to dinner later. I hope you'll come to
Speaker 1: dinner with I want chicken parmesan it. You want chicken farm,
Speaker 1: That's what you'll get. I'm a vegan. I'll get you
Speaker 1: whatever you want to know. But that's again, you're an
Speaker 1: amazing man. You're you're a hero to me and so
Speaker 1: many other people. I'm glad you're here. We need more
Speaker 1: like you, and we need more of you. I'll bring
Speaker 1: solar with me and I promise you this, Jason, for
Speaker 1: your efforts, I won't let you down now that we've
Speaker 1: made a bond. I promise you a I won't capitulate,
Speaker 1: I won't kill myself, I won't quit, and I'll always
Speaker 1: be a respectful, kind and dignified person as best that
Speaker 1: I'm able to, so that you're never embarrassed by me.
Speaker 1: I mean, because I think a lot of us forget.
Speaker 1: You and I come together on this principled effort. But
Speaker 1: for me to then forget that, it would be a
Speaker 1: terrible loss. So I tell everyone, if you believe in
Speaker 1: me and you've given me your time, I promise you
Speaker 1: no one will ever work harder to show gratitude. And Dude,
Speaker 1: I ain't gonna let you down. I ain't gonna quit.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be there like you and just ride this out. Man.
Speaker 1: I had this fascinating thing happened to me when I
Speaker 1: first got out. I came here to New York City
Speaker 1: and I was interviewed by Jennifer Garnerman of The Village Voice.
Speaker 1: At the conclusion of our interview, like we're doing now,
Speaker 1: she put down her pen and she said, Nick, you
Speaker 1: do know you're living one of the greatest stories ever.
Speaker 1: I leaned over the table too. I said, it's just begun,
Speaker 1: and it's true. In the fifteen years of my freedom,
Speaker 1: things have been a rocket ride. Ja. But I've held
Speaker 1: on to the principles that A. I had no business
Speaker 1: getting out if I wasn't looking for good and be
Speaker 1: As long as I'm willing to believe in the good
Speaker 1: of others, I think I'm going to find people like
Speaker 1: you waiting And thank you for let me earn your
Speaker 1: respect that matters to me. Man Amen, brother, um, thank
Speaker 1: you again. Nick Yaris. You can find him at what's
Speaker 1: the social media dot org or Nick Garris on Facebook, Twitter,
Speaker 1: and Instagram. Reach out to Nick, follow him on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,
Speaker 1: bring him in for a speech. You've heard Demand's voice now.
Speaker 1: It's always different, it's always amazing. So listeners to the
Speaker 1: show know that this is the time when I usually
Speaker 1: go to closing arguments and just leave my mic off
Speaker 1: and leave yours on. But you have already dropped so
Speaker 1: many incredible pearls of wisdom and so many beautiful things.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go home and have a good cry
Speaker 1: and then get energized and go out and make as
Speaker 1: much of a change as I possibly can, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do it in your name. So thank you looking
Speaker 1: badass boy, badass, thank you, Thank you for listening. This
Speaker 1: has been a wild ride for me and I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoyed it. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week. Don't forget to give us
Speaker 1: a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps.
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
Speaker 1: to Innis's project dot org to learn how to donate
Speaker 1: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Awardis. The music in the show
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one