Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katy Kirk and this is next question.
Speaker 1: You know, my company, Katie Kirk Media, wouldn't get to
Speaker 1: do all the cool things we do like bring you
Speaker 1: this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart
Speaker 1: and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with.
Speaker 1: One of those is Ali. Today I'm joined by Ali,
Speaker 1: Senior Director of Financial Health and Wellness. Yes, someone has
Speaker 1: that job, Jacqueline Howard. We'll be talking about our deep
Speaker 1: and often mysterious relationship to you guessed it money. Each
Speaker 1: of us has a money story, and soon you'll hear mine.
Speaker 1: It might involve how we viewed money as kids, or
Speaker 1: how money made our parents feel. Not only do those
Speaker 1: money stories stay with us, they really impact our financial
Speaker 1: decisions today and our relationships with our partners, for better
Speaker 1: or for worse. We'll talk about why. We'll also be
Speaker 1: chatting with Kirsten and Julian Saunders, founders of Rich and
Speaker 1: Regular and authors of Cashing Out When the Wealth Game
Speaker 1: by walking away. Although money can be a breaking point
Speaker 1: for so many couples, their money story actually has a
Speaker 1: happy ending. Jacqueline Howard, Welcome. I know you go by
Speaker 1: Jack so I'll call.
Speaker 2: You Jack, thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for this conversation because I feel like
Speaker 1: when people talk about financial literacy, they don't talk about
Speaker 1: how our views on money and finances have been shaped.
Speaker 1: Is this a relatively new area of conversation.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 3: So it's welcome to my world of financial health and
Speaker 3: wellness and money psychology. I've actually been with ally for
Speaker 3: about thirteen years. In the first ten years of my career,
Speaker 3: taught financial literacy and then moved into the space of finance,
Speaker 3: social inclusion, and money psychology. But yes, it's this area
Speaker 3: where we're looking at the emotions and subconscious beliefs, all
Speaker 3: of those things that you may not think about with money,
Speaker 3: getting away from more of the skills and more of
Speaker 3: the behaviors and emotions that you have with money that
Speaker 3: can stop you from having a great relationship with money
Speaker 3: in the long term. So get into the emotions of
Speaker 3: it all.
Speaker 1: And it's really what you call our money stories and
Speaker 1: how they have an impact on virtually every aspect of
Speaker 1: our lives. What exactly makes up a money story?
Speaker 3: Jack, Yeah, So it's really looking at those first money
Speaker 3: memories that you have, any of your subconscious beliefs, things
Speaker 3: that you may have learned from your parents, where as
Speaker 3: an adult you may not think they show up in
Speaker 3: your life, but in reality they do and it shapes
Speaker 3: a lot of your financial decisions.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to tell you my money story, but
Speaker 1: before we do that, let me ask you this question.
Speaker 1: Most of us blame ourselves for our money problems and
Speaker 1: think it really is a question of discipline sticking to
Speaker 1: a budget. But you have found it's far more complicated
Speaker 1: than that.
Speaker 3: How So, yeah, it's really, when you think of it,
Speaker 3: eighty percent behavior and twenty percent skill. And for me,
Speaker 3: with my money story, I have had a lot of shame,
Speaker 3: and I've worked for a bank in financial literacy for
Speaker 3: most of my career and still carry shame about money
Speaker 3: because I have not always been good at it. And
Speaker 3: it wasn't until I started unpacking my own money story
Speaker 3: and really understanding money psychology that I began to realize
Speaker 3: all of the things I learned from my parents and
Speaker 3: my ancestors, life events, my first memories of money, and
Speaker 3: how they impact me today, and how that whole process
Speaker 3: of unpacking it has helped me to be more empathetic
Speaker 3: with myself and others, and knowing that money is more.
Speaker 2: Of a behavior than just skills.
Speaker 3: So one of my first memories of money is going
Speaker 3: to the credit union with my mother. And I have
Speaker 3: a twin brother named Jack, He's the original Jack, and
Speaker 3: we would go to the credit and union with my mother,
Speaker 3: who was a teacher, and every two weeks she would
Speaker 3: pull out one hundred dollars and then we would go
Speaker 3: and use that one hundred dollars to go shopping or
Speaker 3: go to the movies. So my earliest memory of money
Speaker 3: is creating experiences with family, and my mother shaped that
Speaker 3: for me because we used money as a tool to
Speaker 3: create joy and for me now as an adult, I
Speaker 3: do the same thing.
Speaker 1: That's wonderful. I mean, were there any negative memories for
Speaker 1: you surrounding money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, unfortunately my mother passed when I was about
Speaker 3: twelve years old.
Speaker 2: And for the relationship.
Speaker 3: Between my mother and father, I would say my mother
Speaker 3: was more of the saver and my father was more
Speaker 3: of the spender. And oftentimes in relationships you attract your
Speaker 3: opposite so for them, they kind of bumped heads on
Speaker 3: money sometimes, which caused arguments in the family. We had
Speaker 3: moments where we had a lot of money and not
Speaker 3: a lot of money. So when my mother passed, she
Speaker 3: was the person who was more of the found for
Speaker 3: money for our family, and when she passed, we lost that.
Speaker 3: So for me, I lost a sense of control, I'll
Speaker 3: say when it comes to money, a sense of security
Speaker 3: when it comes to money. When my mother passed and
Speaker 3: my father, although he did the best that he could
Speaker 3: with raising two young kids without a mom, he often
Speaker 3: used money to help us to cover.
Speaker 2: Up the fact that we didn't have our mother.
Speaker 3: So that created my other money story of using things
Speaker 3: to cover up emotions. And that's something that I've also
Speaker 3: battled with as an adult as well.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating and I was just going to ask you
Speaker 1: how these childhood memories shaped your relationship with money as
Speaker 1: an adult.
Speaker 3: By the time I got to high school, I was
Speaker 3: about fifteen years old and went and got a worker's
Speaker 3: permit and got my first job at McDonald's. And that
Speaker 3: is the next piece of my money story of really
Speaker 3: using money and working as a tool for me to
Speaker 3: gain control and a tool for me to take care
Speaker 3: of myself.
Speaker 2: So I've spent most of my life.
Speaker 3: I went to Michigan State University for college, where I
Speaker 3: graduated with about thirty thousand dollars in debt, but at
Speaker 3: the same time while at MSU, there were moments where
Speaker 3: I had three jobs at a time to help pay
Speaker 3: for it.
Speaker 2: So I have extreme work.
Speaker 3: Ethic for the things that I want, which created this
Speaker 3: cycle for me of you work really hard, you buy
Speaker 3: what you want, you might create debt, you pay it off.
Speaker 3: You work really hard, you may create debt, you work
Speaker 3: really hard and pay it off, which creates a cycle
Speaker 3: almost for me, which has been a hamster wheel of
Speaker 3: I need to make more money to keep all of
Speaker 3: this going. And it wasn't until I went deep into
Speaker 3: my money psychology of connecting the dots.
Speaker 2: Of oh, I'm not just bad with money.
Speaker 3: I learned these things and now I'm able to get
Speaker 3: to the root issue and address it when things come
Speaker 3: up of do you want to create an experience in
Speaker 3: Hawaii that's going to cost you ten thousand dollars or
Speaker 3: do you want to take your kids for a walk
Speaker 3: and have that same experience with them that's free.
Speaker 2: Connecting those dots for me, it's just been game changing.
Speaker 1: So how were you able to get off the hamster
Speaker 1: wheel to really understand and take a closer, look at
Speaker 1: your money psychology and say no, I don't. I want
Speaker 1: to stop this vicious cycle.
Speaker 3: For me, it's been that process of really understanding my
Speaker 3: root issues. I hadn't thought about my money story until
Speaker 3: starting the work with Ally. We started a wealth business
Speaker 3: about a year ago where we grounded it in behavioral
Speaker 3: finance and asking our clients about their first memory of
Speaker 3: money is a part of the journey, and as a
Speaker 3: part of that team, I had to unpack my own
Speaker 3: money story in order to give that same council to
Speaker 3: our advisors and for me now, I've created guardrails to
Speaker 3: help me to navigate when things come up of wanting
Speaker 3: to use money for experiences or wanting to use money
Speaker 3: to buy things. Now I'm checking and saying, is it
Speaker 3: really about the experience or the money or are you
Speaker 3: looking for something deeper so fascinating?
Speaker 1: Which do you like to hear my money story?
Speaker 2: I would love to hear your money story. Tell me
Speaker 2: your first memory of.
Speaker 1: Money, Gosh. I think probably my first memory of money,
Speaker 1: Jack is getting a dollar or maybe five dollars in
Speaker 1: a birthday card from my grandmother and always putting it
Speaker 1: into a savings account for my college education. I never
Speaker 1: got an allowance, but my parents gave me money when
Speaker 1: I needed it. But they also I remember, said I
Speaker 1: could never buy a treat at the movie theater. Going
Speaker 1: to the movies was a treat enough, so I wasn't
Speaker 1: allowed to buy candy or popcorn. I used to smell
Speaker 1: my friend Janet Taff's empty buttered popcorn container when she
Speaker 1: was done with it. You know, I was very conscious
Speaker 1: of not spending money, and I think really because of
Speaker 1: the generational impact act of their growing up during the
Speaker 1: Great Depression. When I was in high school, my dad
Speaker 1: lost his job, so that made me quite nervous about money,
Speaker 1: even though we were fine. It was something that I
Speaker 1: think filled my dad with shame and my mom with embarrassment,
Speaker 1: and so I have. I think I have a very
Speaker 1: uncomfortable relationship with money. In many ways. I'm not a spender.
Speaker 1: I'm a saver, and even though I have plenty of
Speaker 1: disposable income at this point in my life, I still
Speaker 1: get agitated and anxious when I'm spending a lot of money,
Speaker 1: or people automatically turn to me and think I'm going
Speaker 1: to take care of everything that annoys me, and I
Speaker 1: resent it, but because I want to be generous, but
Speaker 1: I also don't want to be taken advantage of. That's
Speaker 1: a lot. That's a lot to break down.
Speaker 2: That's a lot, isn't it.
Speaker 3: And tell me when you were thinking of those first
Speaker 3: memories of money and the popcorn and the shame you
Speaker 3: felt from your dad, what emotions came up for you
Speaker 3: in that process.
Speaker 1: Probably a little anger when well, actually I didn't. I
Speaker 1: appreciated giving my money and putting in a college fund
Speaker 1: because it made me appreciate the importance of saving and
Speaker 1: not spending money on things that weren't of value. So
Speaker 1: I actually really appreciate my parents instilling that in me.
Speaker 1: But actually I feel pretty healthy about my relationship with money,
Speaker 1: even though it's complicated like everyone else's.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the great thing about money psychology and this financial
Speaker 3: health and wellness space that we're in is bringing awareness
Speaker 3: to that connection. Right, It sounds like you have a
Speaker 3: good relationship with money now you've worked through it to
Speaker 3: come to an appreciation. But for some people they still
Speaker 3: be scared about not getting a popcorn. So I think
Speaker 3: the great thing is being able to talk about it
Speaker 3: and then also deal with those emotions to see how
Speaker 3: it may be impacting you today.
Speaker 1: I think I need a couch and we need an hour.
Speaker 2: I know we do. We need hours to talk about it.
Speaker 3: But I guarantee now that you've given this some thought,
Speaker 3: it's going to show up in other places.
Speaker 2: So look at it as a journey.
Speaker 3: This money psychology and financial health and wellness is a
Speaker 3: journey of you just unpacking your relationship with money just
Speaker 3: to get better at it and to let go of
Speaker 3: any trauma or any stress that you have about it.
Speaker 2: Unpacking it helps you to get there.
Speaker 1: We'll have more with Jack Howard right after this. I
Speaker 1: know there's an actual quiz Jack developed by doctor Brad
Speaker 1: Klanst financial psychologists, which measures four core money belief system
Speaker 1: Let's go through them real quickly, and then I'll tell
Speaker 1: you where I ended up on the test. The first
Speaker 1: is money avoidance. Tell us what that is?
Speaker 2: So money avoidance, that's the person. Money is evil. I
Speaker 2: don't want money. Money is bad.
Speaker 3: You get the bills and the mail, you're throwing them
Speaker 3: in a folder, not looking at them.
Speaker 2: You're avoiding money.
Speaker 3: It's not the best money behavior to have, but you
Speaker 3: can balance it by really creating a budget and addressing
Speaker 3: things head on.
Speaker 1: Okay, the next is money worship, the opposite.
Speaker 2: Money worship and money focused. That's me.
Speaker 3: So that is a person who thinks that if I
Speaker 3: just have more money, it will solve everything. If I
Speaker 3: could just get that promotion, make more money, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: work harder, I'm gonna work on the weekends.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do all of that to make more money.
Speaker 3: And for that, one of the downfalls could be that
Speaker 3: you make more money, you tend to not have as
Speaker 3: strong a relationships with family because you spend so much
Speaker 3: time working and you can create debt.
Speaker 2: So that one is also a tough one as well.
Speaker 1: Money status, money status.
Speaker 3: So that's a person where they tie their self worth
Speaker 3: to their net worth.
Speaker 2: So that is the.
Speaker 3: Flashy You're on social media, you got the latest everything,
Speaker 3: keeping up with the Joneses. You're really looking to money
Speaker 3: to create your identity.
Speaker 1: I am really turned off by that. And anyway, money vigilance, I.
Speaker 3: Think this is the one that you are, Katie, So
Speaker 3: money vigilance. This person is of the four money personalities.
Speaker 3: They're a little bit better with money, but you tend
Speaker 3: to save, You're a bit more frugal. The bad end
Speaker 3: of that one is that you can tend to oversave
Speaker 3: and not enjoy money as much, and it can create
Speaker 3: anxiety and stress because you're always worried about if you
Speaker 3: have enough money.
Speaker 1: All right, we both took the test, and you are,
Speaker 1: in fact a money worshiper.
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 3: I am a money worshiper. And for me with understanding
Speaker 3: my own financial health and wellness, seeing that show up
Speaker 3: in my life as an adult, and being able to
Speaker 3: address it so that my kids have a different money story.
Speaker 1: And so how are your kids different than you, and
Speaker 1: how are you helping them shape attitudes that will lead
Speaker 1: to financial help throughout their lives.
Speaker 3: So I have a fourteen year old son and a
Speaker 3: six year old daughter who will be angry if I
Speaker 3: don't give her the six and a half because she
Speaker 3: has a birthday coming. But for my son, one of
Speaker 3: the great things about my career at ally is that
Speaker 3: I've been able to take my son on this journey.
Speaker 2: I think when I started working here he was about
Speaker 2: two years old. So my career at.
Speaker 3: Ally, I've created financial literacy, children's books, I've created magic
Speaker 3: shows that talk about money, and my son has been
Speaker 3: a part of that journey since he was little. So
Speaker 3: now at fourteen, he's very mature when it comes to
Speaker 3: the conversation of money. He understands that you have to spend, save,
Speaker 3: and give. We created little buckets where he would put
Speaker 3: money in the bucket based off of spend, se give
Speaker 3: when he would get his allowance. And we've been doing
Speaker 3: that since he was about six years old. And now
Speaker 3: he is able to use the things that I've taught
Speaker 3: him in a play. But I think the big thing
Speaker 3: with your kids is making sure that they're a part
Speaker 3: of a conversation, you know. I think the big difference
Speaker 3: between my parents and some other parents is that we
Speaker 3: didn't talk about money. We didn't have those conversations at
Speaker 3: the dinner table. We didn't talk about investing or saving.
Speaker 3: Money was looked at as a really a tool to
Speaker 3: buy things versus an asset that we can use to
Speaker 3: create more assets. And with my son, I'm trying to
Speaker 3: teach him something different so that he's more vigilant with
Speaker 3: his money and uses it as a tool to build.
Speaker 3: And my daughter, I'm working on her. She's just we
Speaker 3: just got her started on the allowance.
Speaker 1: How do you work on these issues so you can
Speaker 1: really turn a switch in your brain and change your
Speaker 1: attitudes towards money for the better.
Speaker 3: I think the first thing is realizing that it even exists.
Speaker 3: So what you've done, Katie, just with this first step
Speaker 3: of understanding your money personality, realizing that you may have
Speaker 3: some subconscious beliefs that show up in your daily life.
Speaker 3: I would encourage you to go home and journal about it.
Speaker 3: Journal about some of those first memories, the beliefs that
Speaker 3: you have, and then from there, once you journal, journal
Speaker 3: about it and understand the impact that it has on
Speaker 3: you today, create a different money mantra. So for you,
Speaker 3: it may be in the past, I've felt that we
Speaker 3: didn't have enough. I feel that you shouldn't spend money
Speaker 3: on expensive things. It may be now that I have enough,
Speaker 3: I can spend money on things that I budget for.
Speaker 1: Tell me how our money stories impact our adult relationships,
Speaker 1: whether it's with our partners, our bosses, our kids, our family.
Speaker 3: I find this idea of your money story and your
Speaker 3: financial health and wellness for relationships, specifically for couples, fascinating
Speaker 3: because oftentimes you will attract your opposite. So I'm recently divorced,
Speaker 3: but when I was married, read my husband was very
Speaker 3: frugal and I'm.
Speaker 2: A spender, so for our relationship.
Speaker 3: We were attracted to each other because I gave him
Speaker 3: a little bit of like, let's have some fun, and
Speaker 3: he gave me a little bit of a structure. Where
Speaker 3: the issues can come in. Is not realizing the money
Speaker 3: story of your partner. So in his eyes, I may
Speaker 3: have looked at been looked upon as irresponsible, or she
Speaker 3: just wants to have fun, whatever, you know, she's not
Speaker 3: serious about money. So I think oftentimes in our relationships,
Speaker 3: by not understanding the money story or the money history
Speaker 3: of the people around you, it creates this space for judgment,
Speaker 3: It creates a space for shame. When you can unpack
Speaker 3: those things, it creates more empathy.
Speaker 2: And I think it would.
Speaker 3: Help a lot of marriages if we were to have
Speaker 3: this as a part of marital counselor before you got married.
Speaker 3: It's crazy because when I think about the time when
Speaker 3: I was getting married, you.
Speaker 2: Just want to get married.
Speaker 3: You're in love, and you want to have a big
Speaker 3: wedding and all these things. You're not having those conversations
Speaker 3: about the soft and higher skills of money. People are
Speaker 3: avoiding those conversations because they may be ashamed, and it
Speaker 3: just it could be uncomfortable it's a different level of
Speaker 3: love when you talk about money.
Speaker 1: Thirty eight percent of marriages split up for precisely this reason.
Speaker 1: They don't see eye to eye on financial issues.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it.
Speaker 3: And oftentimes with marriages you think of infidelity, right, there's
Speaker 3: sexual infidelity, emotional infidelity, but there's also financial infidelity.
Speaker 2: And what that means is.
Speaker 3: Those moments where you keep a secret about money from
Speaker 3: your partner or your hiding accounts. It's really being dishonest
Speaker 3: about money, and I think it shows up in a
Speaker 3: lot of marriages and contributes to the lack of trust
Speaker 3: and stability in a relationship.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question about money and how
Speaker 1: things have changed today. Thirty point six percent of women
Speaker 1: made more money than their husbands. That's up from twenty
Speaker 1: three percent in two thousand and sixteen percent in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty one. I'm curious how that has impacted relationships because
Speaker 1: when I got married and started making more money than
Speaker 1: my husband, who subsequently passed away, I think it created
Speaker 1: some tension in our relationship.
Speaker 3: I think it has really shifted the stories that we
Speaker 3: have about money, conflict within relationships, how we talk about money,
Speaker 3: and really forced us to look at old stereotypes about
Speaker 3: money and gender roles and forced us to really look at.
Speaker 2: What is the legacy we want to create for our children.
Speaker 3: Right, So for my daughter, I want her to grow
Speaker 3: up and know that she can grow up and be
Speaker 3: whatever she wants and have a career and do all
Speaker 3: those things the same thing that my mother did. So
Speaker 3: it's really opening up this conversation about money of making
Speaker 3: sure that the.
Speaker 2: Roles have support. So if you're our working mom, making.
Speaker 3: Sure you get that support outside of the home, and
Speaker 3: then when it comes to money, ensuring that the couple
Speaker 3: is on the same page with reaching their financial goals.
Speaker 1: Women need to really understand their finances much more than
Speaker 1: they do. Is that changing.
Speaker 3: The conversation has changed, But as women, we also have
Speaker 3: to take responsibility for our money. Take responsibility for the
Speaker 3: things that you're invested in, even if it's through your
Speaker 3: four oh one k at work, Understanding the accounts that
Speaker 3: your family has, going through your estate plan. So I'm
Speaker 3: working on my updated estate plan now post divorce, and
Speaker 3: it's hard. I think we avoid these things because they're
Speaker 3: tough conversations and it's easy to pass it off to
Speaker 3: somebody else. Funny enough, so during my money story journey
Speaker 3: with Ally, I use our advisors here. My biggest fear
Speaker 3: that came up for me is being a poor old lady.
Speaker 3: And I think what comes up is that women often
Speaker 3: live longer than men. We're not a part of the
Speaker 3: money conversations, so we have this fear that the money
Speaker 3: will run out. So how much money do I actually
Speaker 3: need to live to be ninety five? You need to
Speaker 3: know that, and you need to create a savings and
Speaker 3: investing plan to help you to ensure that you'll be okay.
Speaker 3: You'll be covered and also not only be covered, but
Speaker 3: be able to leave a legacy for your children, a
Speaker 3: legacy within the community.
Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll be joined by Kirsten and
Speaker 1: Julian Saunders. They have some great advice about how couples
Speaker 1: can navigate hard conversations about money. Let's bring in Kirsten
Speaker 1: and Julian Saunders into this conversation, the founders of and
Speaker 1: Regular and they have their own money story to tell.
Speaker 1: I thought it was so interesting Juliane and Kirsten that
Speaker 1: thirty eight percent of marriages and over arguments about money.
Speaker 1: So you have been able to successfully navigate your different
Speaker 1: approaches and attitudes and philosophies about money. How were you
Speaker 1: able to do that and was anybody hurt in the process.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the first thing was just coming to
Speaker 4: grips with that stat. We saw that stat when we
Speaker 4: got engaged, and we were, you know, thinking about how
Speaker 4: we're going to do premarital counseling or do we want
Speaker 4: to do like a joint therapy, But we decided that
Speaker 4: we knew the number one reason that people were getting
Speaker 4: divorced or at least having arguments in a marriage was
Speaker 4: around money, and we wanted to take that one off
Speaker 4: the table for us. We were like, if we're going
Speaker 4: to have an issue, is going to be with thing
Speaker 4: number two, three, or four, not not about money. And
Speaker 4: so when we both committed to that, that was a
Speaker 4: kind of a sauce or a secret weapon in our marriage.
Speaker 1: So, Julian, your first argument was over credit card debt, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well it wasn't just our first argument. It was our
Speaker 5: very first open conversation about money. I mean, we met
Speaker 5: at work and we decided to take a trip. Shortly
Speaker 5: after a meeting, things were going really well, and we said,
Speaker 5: why not step our foot on the gas, And so
Speaker 5: we literally took a vacation and we hang back. We
Speaker 5: spent a lot of money, and when we came back,
Speaker 5: I sort of decided that, you know, all right, it's
Speaker 5: time to kind of jump back into the regular way
Speaker 5: of doing things, which is, you know, cutting back and
Speaker 5: being mindflow of the budget, especially knowing how much we
Speaker 5: just spent, and she wanted to go ahead and keep
Speaker 5: the party going. She wanted to literally celebrate the fact
Speaker 5: that we'd just taken a vacation. And long story short,
Speaker 5: you know, it kind of came to a head and
Speaker 5: I said some words that I have come to regret
Speaker 5: in some ways. But I told her, you know, after
Speaker 5: learning that she already had credit card debt and that
Speaker 5: vacation was building on top of that, that if I
Speaker 5: knew she had that, that I would not have dated her.
Speaker 5: And the reason why I said that, even though I
Speaker 5: know that that's a horrible thing to say looking back,
Speaker 5: because I had had really, really bad experiences dealing with
Speaker 5: my own debt, I felt like that was actually the
Speaker 5: righteous and responsible thing to do. But obviously, now that
Speaker 5: I've had some time to reflect on it, it was
Speaker 5: very rude and sensitive.
Speaker 3: So I must admit I'm a big fan of your
Speaker 3: book Cashing Out, and on that part, I have it
Speaker 3: on audible. When you said I'm done dating, I was like, oh, no,
Speaker 3: he did not do that to her.
Speaker 2: What is he doing?
Speaker 3: So, Kirsten, I know in the book you both were
Speaker 3: able to dig into your perspectives of money, and Katie
Speaker 3: and I actually talked about our money stories earlier. Both
Speaker 3: of you come from very different backgrounds, which means you
Speaker 3: have very different money stories. Can you share your money
Speaker 3: story and let us know how it impacts your relationship today?
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were, as you said, born on two different
Speaker 4: sides of the track. I grew up pretty traditional, middle class,
Speaker 4: two parent household here in Atlanta. On top of that,
Speaker 4: I was a church girl, and so a lot of
Speaker 4: the early teachings that I had about life were faith based.
Speaker 4: I believed in things like abundance. I believed in faith
Speaker 4: the size of a mustard seed. And so that's what
Speaker 4: I would default to when he would ask these very
Speaker 4: specific questions about my religion. I would just be like
Speaker 4: God got me, Like, no, there's no limit to what's possible,
Speaker 4: instead of understanding that it requires work as well.
Speaker 2: It still requires a plan.
Speaker 4: And so when we had our first conversation about money,
Speaker 4: and he was asking, like, how do you expect to
Speaker 4: pay for this vacation. I was very clear, like through
Speaker 4: credit cards. I thought that was normal. I didn't know
Speaker 4: that you're supposed to pay the credit card off every
Speaker 4: month or I thought that was like an option. I
Speaker 4: didn't think that was like the best practice.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and my story is different, right, so we kind
Speaker 5: of frame it up as in her story as a
Speaker 5: version of the Huxtables or the Cosby Show, and mine
Speaker 5: was more like a Jamaican version of good times, Like
Speaker 5: it was hard. And I grew up in nineteen eighties Brooklyn,
Speaker 5: New York, and it was a very different Brooklyn than
Speaker 5: you see today. And so my mom worked in Manhattan,
Speaker 5: and so I remember there were times we'd go up
Speaker 5: on the roof, not my mom but just me being
Speaker 5: a young kid, and you go up on the roof
Speaker 5: and you would see Manhattan. It was like, oh, that's
Speaker 5: where the money is, Like there's money over there. But
Speaker 5: it just felt like it was like mythical, right, it
Speaker 5: was almost like from being honest, you just take pride
Speaker 5: in that, like your ability to survive and your ability
Speaker 5: to stress a dollar and your ability to get by
Speaker 5: but you learn pretty quickly that that only gets you
Speaker 5: so far, and especially when it comes to relationships, that
Speaker 5: mentality can actually get in the way because you do
Speaker 5: actually need money to nurture relationships, not just romantic relationships,
Speaker 5: but familiar relationships and just social friendships and so on.
Speaker 1: So fascinating, isn't it, Jack? And also the idea of
Speaker 1: like Julian, I would imagine your mantra was never living
Speaker 1: beyond your means, while Kirsten's was always living beyond your
Speaker 1: means because you could pay for it. You could enjoy
Speaker 1: it now and pay for it later.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. That's exactly it, Jack.
Speaker 1: I'm curious when you hear these stories, do you think,
Speaker 1: oh my god, these two it's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 2: No, you know what it is. Yes, it does sound
Speaker 2: like acid.
Speaker 3: And if you read the book and you hear how
Speaker 3: firm he was with her on that on having dead,
Speaker 3: it'll blow your mind. But I'm curious, you know you
Speaker 3: were able to get to a place so early in
Speaker 3: your relationship Julian of addressing the money conversation, which is
Speaker 3: often so taboo in society and relationships in general, how
Speaker 3: did you both get to a place of being able
Speaker 3: to have that conversation and Kirsten for you being able
Speaker 3: to receive it and move forward.
Speaker 5: Yeah. So first I would say it's just love, right,
Speaker 5: like there was an undeniable love and an attraction there.
Speaker 5: And the second part, I would say it was bewildering
Speaker 5: because I was just so confused as to why I
Speaker 5: was so willing to throw away something that I really
Speaker 5: really loved it, enjoy out of this deeprooted fear. And
Speaker 5: so luckily the sort of rational part of my brain
Speaker 5: was like, like, why would you do that? Why would
Speaker 5: you throw that away?
Speaker 1: And Kirsten to follow up, Yeah, what Jack asked, how
Speaker 1: were you able to receive it and not be defensive
Speaker 1: and you know, reject Julian because he was so different
Speaker 1: than you were in terms of his attitudes.
Speaker 2: Thank you for putting in nice, so different, so different.
Speaker 4: Well, I think this is where the other side of
Speaker 4: the faith coin comes in. I knew that there needed
Speaker 4: to be grace there for him and for me, and
Speaker 4: I actually was quite defensive, and that was my first
Speaker 4: indicator that like, maybe he was right, because I think
Speaker 4: when people get defensive, they tend to think that they're
Speaker 4: standing up for themselves or defending themselves, because you don't
Speaker 4: get defensive when you think somebody is wrong. When somebody's wrong,
Speaker 4: you're like, whatever, that's crazy, Like that's crazy talk. You
Speaker 4: get defensive when you feel that they may be kind
Speaker 4: of right, Like you get defensive when it's like, ooh,
Speaker 4: that's stung a little bit. You saw something in me
Speaker 4: that I kind of believe myself that I know I
Speaker 4: know better, but I'm doing this differently. And so when
Speaker 4: I took that time to actually kind of audit my behaviors,
Speaker 4: look at how reckless or loose I was being with
Speaker 4: my finances, I was like, he kind of has a point.
Speaker 1: I'd like to ask all three of you a question,
Speaker 1: and that is how much tension now arises between spouses
Speaker 1: or partners because so many more women are working, and
Speaker 1: that means in some cases, women are out earning their husbands.
Speaker 1: And I think in some traditional marriages, or if like
Speaker 1: the husband didn't have a working mom, that can sometimes
Speaker 1: be an affront to their manhood in some ways, even
Speaker 1: if it's subconsciously so, that can create all kinds of
Speaker 1: issues in a marriage, can it not.
Speaker 4: We see that and hear that all the time. I
Speaker 4: think there's two sides of that coin. On the one hand,
Speaker 4: because women are more likely to be breadwinners than they
Speaker 4: were before, it's giving way for men to be more
Speaker 4: active fathers and take paternity leave and perhaps opt into
Speaker 4: being a stay at home dad and get the breaks
Speaker 4: from their career that they desire. But on the other hand,
Speaker 4: women are learning what it feels like to have the
Speaker 4: power of being the breadwinner, and there's some fumbling along
Speaker 4: the way. We're hearing a lot of people either coming
Speaker 4: into the realization that they need a plan, a lot
Speaker 4: of women specifically coming into the realization that they need
Speaker 4: a plan. Even when you look at pre nups, the
Speaker 4: leading cohort, leading generation of prenups are millennial women asking
Speaker 4: for them, requesting them, making sure that that's the foundation
Speaker 4: of their marriage. Because this idea very similar to jobs,
Speaker 4: which has gone through a similar cultural transition. This idea
Speaker 4: that something is forever ever is becoming less and less
Speaker 4: statistically relevant, and so protecting yourself going in is more
Speaker 4: important now than it was before. And then the same
Speaker 4: it's just true with divorcing. We hear from a lot
Speaker 4: of women who are basically starting over. They lost a
Speaker 4: great bit of their savings and divorce. A lot of
Speaker 4: the conversations that we have are about encouraging people to
Speaker 4: leave the shame behind and start to tell the story
Speaker 4: so that other people can learn and so that we
Speaker 4: socially can make some of these conversations and these decisions
Speaker 4: more normalized as the future, as future generations continue to
Speaker 4: get married.
Speaker 1: We're almost out of time, but I want to ask
Speaker 1: you all about how you deal with financial disagreements, because
Speaker 1: nobody's perfect, and I'm sure you occasionally don't see eye
Speaker 1: to eye on financial issues. And since it's the cause
Speaker 1: of so much marital strife, you have figured out a
Speaker 1: way to get through things when you have a disagreement.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about those. One is Elmo. What does
Speaker 1: that mean? So?
Speaker 4: Elmo is an acronym for enough, let's move on. And
Speaker 4: we actually so when our son was little, used to
Speaker 4: have an Elmo doll that we just put on the table,
Speaker 4: like okay, Elmo. Because there's a way of talking around
Speaker 4: a subjects so much that you lose the plot and
Speaker 4: we forget what we're talking about. And so sometimes we'll
Speaker 4: get into keeping score, bringing up old stuff, adding in
Speaker 4: other stories from other people, and if it's not productive.
Speaker 4: We'll just say okay, Elmo and move on to the
Speaker 4: next thing.
Speaker 1: You also have, tell me more. That's the opposite of Elmo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
Speaker 5: But it was clearly a rule that was designed for
Speaker 5: me or people like me. But it's really just a
Speaker 5: way to ensure that you are inviting your partner into
Speaker 5: a conversation about money, giving them room or space to
Speaker 5: explore their idea. And you're basically just when they ask
Speaker 5: for that crazy thing or bring up that crazy thing,
Speaker 5: tell me more. And by the third or fourth tell
Speaker 5: me more. By the time you get to the third
Speaker 5: or fourth thing, they bother talk themselves out of it,
Speaker 5: or they've brought up a red line point. Yeah. And
Speaker 5: it's just creates an environment where I think you are
Speaker 5: inviting someone else to share their point of view, as
Speaker 5: opposed to saying, nope, here's my heart fast rule. It's
Speaker 5: not in a budget. I'm gonna shut this thing down.
Speaker 5: Because reality is, these things are natural. You're gonna have ideas,
Speaker 5: You're gonna have temptations, and I think everyone deserves an
Speaker 5: opportunity to explore them.
Speaker 1: I see your son walking in the background, so cute.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I love I love your safe
Speaker 1: word too, you have to come up with that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So this was a way because I'm the more
Speaker 4: conflict averse one in the group, and so this was
Speaker 4: a way for me to exit a conversation or say
Speaker 4: I need a pause before things got even more escalated.
Speaker 4: If I needed to collect myself emotionally, we would come
Speaker 4: up with this safe word. And our safe word is donuts.
Speaker 4: And so in the middle of a conversation, I can say, like, yo, donuts,
Speaker 4: I'm done talking about this. I don't want to cry
Speaker 4: right now, like I'm too emotional, Like donuts, let's just
Speaker 4: revisit this next week. And it's so slight, it's in
Speaker 4: the middle of a sentence, but it's enough to be like.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: I really admire the work that both of you have
Speaker 3: put into allowing communication, getting to know each other's stories.
Speaker 3: If more people were doing what they're doing, we could
Speaker 3: save a lot of marriages of just having the conversation
Speaker 3: and loving each other. I think you mentioned that earlier, Julian, like,
Speaker 3: you have this person that you love, so why would
Speaker 3: you let money come in between it when it's something
Speaker 3: that definitely can be navigated.
Speaker 2: So kudos to both of you. Thank you for being
Speaker 2: an example. It's taken me a.
Speaker 3: While to get to where I am. I didn't just
Speaker 3: come out the womb knowing how to deal with money.
Speaker 3: We know that, so given everybody that grace. It's something
Speaker 3: that we have to keep in mind and keeping the
Speaker 3: communication open. All of that is needed, slowing down conversations
Speaker 3: about money.
Speaker 2: Also having your boundaries around money.
Speaker 3: These are all things when we mentioned earlier of having
Speaker 3: a plan in the beginning, what are your values around money,
Speaker 3: what are your non negotiables, and sharing that with your
Speaker 3: family in a very kind and understanding way. I think
Speaker 3: that's how you set up those boundaries and get everybody
Speaker 3: on the same page and they secretly will learn from
Speaker 3: you in that process.
Speaker 1: Well, this was so fun. I've learned so much. I've
Speaker 1: really loved getting to know you all virtually. Jacqueline aka Jack,
Speaker 1: and Julian and Kirsten, thank you so much for spending
Speaker 1: time with us. This was really interesting. I know my
Speaker 1: money story. I'm money vigilance.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: In other words, I'm cheap frue goal. I prefer frugal
Speaker 1: to cheat anyway, Thank you all so much. This was
Speaker 1: really a great conversation.
Speaker 2: I so appreciate it you take care.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for
Speaker 1: me or want to share your thoughts about how you
Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
Speaker 1: short message at six oh nine five point two by
Speaker 1: five oh five, or you can send me a DM
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Speaker 1: Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
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