1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katy Kirk and this is next question. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: You know, my company, Katie Kirk Media, wouldn't get to 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: do all the cool things we do like bring you 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with. 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: One of those is Ali. Today I'm joined by Ali, 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Senior Director of Financial Health and Wellness. Yes, someone has 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: that job, Jacqueline Howard. We'll be talking about our deep 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: and often mysterious relationship to you guessed it money. Each 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: of us has a money story, and soon you'll hear mine. 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: It might involve how we viewed money as kids, or 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: how money made our parents feel. Not only do those 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: money stories stay with us, they really impact our financial 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: decisions today and our relationships with our partners, for better 15 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: or for worse. We'll talk about why. We'll also be 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: chatting with Kirsten and Julian Saunders, founders of Rich and 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: Regular and authors of Cashing Out When the Wealth Game 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,919 Speaker 1: by walking away. Although money can be a breaking point 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: for so many couples, their money story actually has a 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: happy ending. Jacqueline Howard, Welcome. I know you go by 21 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: Jack so I'll call. 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: You Jack, thank you, thank you for having me. 23 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: I'm so excited for this conversation because I feel like 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: when people talk about financial literacy, they don't talk about 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: how our views on money and finances have been shaped. 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: Is this a relatively new area of conversation. 27 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: It is. 28 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 3: So it's welcome to my world of financial health and 29 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: wellness and money psychology. I've actually been with ally for 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: about thirteen years. In the first ten years of my career, 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: taught financial literacy and then moved into the space of finance, 32 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 3: social inclusion, and money psychology. But yes, it's this area 33 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 3: where we're looking at the emotions and subconscious beliefs, all 34 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 3: of those things that you may not think about with money, 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 3: getting away from more of the skills and more of 36 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 3: the behaviors and emotions that you have with money that 37 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 3: can stop you from having a great relationship with money 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 3: in the long term. So get into the emotions of 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: it all. 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: And it's really what you call our money stories and 41 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: how they have an impact on virtually every aspect of 42 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: our lives. What exactly makes up a money story? 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 3: Jack, Yeah, So it's really looking at those first money 44 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: memories that you have, any of your subconscious beliefs, things 45 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 3: that you may have learned from your parents, where as 46 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 3: an adult you may not think they show up in 47 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 3: your life, but in reality they do and it shapes 48 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: a lot of your financial decisions. 49 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: I can't wait to tell you my money story, but 50 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: before we do that, let me ask you this question. 51 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: Most of us blame ourselves for our money problems and 52 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: think it really is a question of discipline sticking to 53 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: a budget. But you have found it's far more complicated 54 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: than that. 55 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 3: How So, yeah, it's really, when you think of it, 56 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 3: eighty percent behavior and twenty percent skill. And for me, 57 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: with my money story, I have had a lot of shame, 58 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: and I've worked for a bank in financial literacy for 59 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 3: most of my career and still carry shame about money 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 3: because I have not always been good at it. And 61 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: it wasn't until I started unpacking my own money story 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 3: and really understanding money psychology that I began to realize 63 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 3: all of the things I learned from my parents and 64 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 3: my ancestors, life events, my first memories of money, and 65 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 3: how they impact me today, and how that whole process 66 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 3: of unpacking it has helped me to be more empathetic 67 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: with myself and others, and knowing that money is more. 68 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: Of a behavior than just skills. 69 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: So one of my first memories of money is going 70 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: to the credit union with my mother. And I have 71 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 3: a twin brother named Jack, He's the original Jack, and 72 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: we would go to the credit and union with my mother, 73 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 3: who was a teacher, and every two weeks she would 74 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: pull out one hundred dollars and then we would go 75 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: and use that one hundred dollars to go shopping or 76 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 3: go to the movies. So my earliest memory of money 77 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 3: is creating experiences with family, and my mother shaped that 78 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 3: for me because we used money as a tool to 79 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: create joy and for me now as an adult, I 80 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: do the same thing. 81 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: That's wonderful. I mean, were there any negative memories for 82 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: you surrounding money. 83 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, unfortunately my mother passed when I was about 84 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: twelve years old. 85 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 2: And for the relationship. 86 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 3: Between my mother and father, I would say my mother 87 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 3: was more of the saver and my father was more 88 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: of the spender. And oftentimes in relationships you attract your 89 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 3: opposite so for them, they kind of bumped heads on 90 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 3: money sometimes, which caused arguments in the family. We had 91 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 3: moments where we had a lot of money and not 92 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: a lot of money. So when my mother passed, she 93 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 3: was the person who was more of the found for 94 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: money for our family, and when she passed, we lost that. 95 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: So for me, I lost a sense of control, I'll 96 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 3: say when it comes to money, a sense of security 97 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 3: when it comes to money. When my mother passed and 98 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 3: my father, although he did the best that he could 99 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: with raising two young kids without a mom, he often 100 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 3: used money to help us to cover. 101 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: Up the fact that we didn't have our mother. 102 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 3: So that created my other money story of using things 103 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 3: to cover up emotions. And that's something that I've also 104 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 3: battled with as an adult as well. 105 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: That's fascinating and I was just going to ask you 106 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: how these childhood memories shaped your relationship with money as 107 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: an adult. 108 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: By the time I got to high school, I was 109 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: about fifteen years old and went and got a worker's 110 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 3: permit and got my first job at McDonald's. And that 111 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: is the next piece of my money story of really 112 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 3: using money and working as a tool for me to 113 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 3: gain control and a tool for me to take care 114 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 3: of myself. 115 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: So I've spent most of my life. 116 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 3: I went to Michigan State University for college, where I 117 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 3: graduated with about thirty thousand dollars in debt, but at 118 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 3: the same time while at MSU, there were moments where 119 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: I had three jobs at a time to help pay 120 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: for it. 121 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: So I have extreme work. 122 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: Ethic for the things that I want, which created this 123 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: cycle for me of you work really hard, you buy 124 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 3: what you want, you might create debt, you pay it off. 125 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 3: You work really hard, you may create debt, you work 126 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 3: really hard and pay it off, which creates a cycle 127 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 3: almost for me, which has been a hamster wheel of 128 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: I need to make more money to keep all of 129 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 3: this going. And it wasn't until I went deep into 130 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 3: my money psychology of connecting the dots. 131 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: Of oh, I'm not just bad with money. 132 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 3: I learned these things and now I'm able to get 133 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 3: to the root issue and address it when things come 134 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: up of do you want to create an experience in 135 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 3: Hawaii that's going to cost you ten thousand dollars or 136 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 3: do you want to take your kids for a walk 137 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 3: and have that same experience with them that's free. 138 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: Connecting those dots for me, it's just been game changing. 139 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 1: So how were you able to get off the hamster 140 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: wheel to really understand and take a closer, look at 141 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: your money psychology and say no, I don't. I want 142 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: to stop this vicious cycle. 143 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 3: For me, it's been that process of really understanding my 144 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: root issues. I hadn't thought about my money story until 145 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: starting the work with Ally. We started a wealth business 146 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: about a year ago where we grounded it in behavioral 147 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 3: finance and asking our clients about their first memory of 148 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: money is a part of the journey, and as a 149 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: part of that team, I had to unpack my own 150 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: money story in order to give that same council to 151 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: our advisors and for me now, I've created guardrails to 152 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: help me to navigate when things come up of wanting 153 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: to use money for experiences or wanting to use money 154 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: to buy things. Now I'm checking and saying, is it 155 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: really about the experience or the money or are you 156 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: looking for something deeper so fascinating? 157 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: Which do you like to hear my money story? 158 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: I would love to hear your money story. Tell me 159 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: your first memory of. 160 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: Money, Gosh. I think probably my first memory of money, 161 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: Jack is getting a dollar or maybe five dollars in 162 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: a birthday card from my grandmother and always putting it 163 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: into a savings account for my college education. I never 164 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: got an allowance, but my parents gave me money when 165 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: I needed it. But they also I remember, said I 166 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: could never buy a treat at the movie theater. Going 167 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: to the movies was a treat enough, so I wasn't 168 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: allowed to buy candy or popcorn. I used to smell 169 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: my friend Janet Taff's empty buttered popcorn container when she 170 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: was done with it. You know, I was very conscious 171 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: of not spending money, and I think really because of 172 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: the generational impact act of their growing up during the 173 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: Great Depression. When I was in high school, my dad 174 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: lost his job, so that made me quite nervous about money, 175 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: even though we were fine. It was something that I 176 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: think filled my dad with shame and my mom with embarrassment, 177 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: and so I have. I think I have a very 178 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: uncomfortable relationship with money. In many ways. I'm not a spender. 179 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: I'm a saver, and even though I have plenty of 180 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: disposable income at this point in my life, I still 181 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: get agitated and anxious when I'm spending a lot of money, 182 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: or people automatically turn to me and think I'm going 183 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: to take care of everything that annoys me, and I 184 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: resent it, but because I want to be generous, but 185 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: I also don't want to be taken advantage of. That's 186 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: a lot. That's a lot to break down. 187 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: That's a lot, isn't it. 188 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: And tell me when you were thinking of those first 189 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: memories of money and the popcorn and the shame you 190 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 3: felt from your dad, what emotions came up for you 191 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 3: in that process. 192 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: Probably a little anger when well, actually I didn't. I 193 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: appreciated giving my money and putting in a college fund 194 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: because it made me appreciate the importance of saving and 195 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: not spending money on things that weren't of value. So 196 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: I actually really appreciate my parents instilling that in me. 197 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: But actually I feel pretty healthy about my relationship with money, 198 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: even though it's complicated like everyone else's. 199 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, the great thing about money psychology and this financial 200 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 3: health and wellness space that we're in is bringing awareness 201 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 3: to that connection. Right, It sounds like you have a 202 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: good relationship with money now you've worked through it to 203 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: come to an appreciation. But for some people they still 204 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 3: be scared about not getting a popcorn. So I think 205 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 3: the great thing is being able to talk about it 206 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 3: and then also deal with those emotions to see how 207 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 3: it may be impacting you today. 208 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: I think I need a couch and we need an hour. 209 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: I know we do. We need hours to talk about it. 210 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 3: But I guarantee now that you've given this some thought, 211 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 3: it's going to show up in other places. 212 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: So look at it as a journey. 213 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 3: This money psychology and financial health and wellness is a 214 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: journey of you just unpacking your relationship with money just 215 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 3: to get better at it and to let go of 216 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 3: any trauma or any stress that you have about it. 217 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: Unpacking it helps you to get there. 218 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: We'll have more with Jack Howard right after this. I 219 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: know there's an actual quiz Jack developed by doctor Brad 220 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: Klanst financial psychologists, which measures four core money belief system 221 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: Let's go through them real quickly, and then I'll tell 222 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: you where I ended up on the test. The first 223 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: is money avoidance. Tell us what that is? 224 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: So money avoidance, that's the person. Money is evil. I 225 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 2: don't want money. Money is bad. 226 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 3: You get the bills and the mail, you're throwing them 227 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 3: in a folder, not looking at them. 228 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: You're avoiding money. 229 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 3: It's not the best money behavior to have, but you 230 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: can balance it by really creating a budget and addressing 231 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 3: things head on. 232 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: Okay, the next is money worship, the opposite. 233 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: Money worship and money focused. That's me. 234 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 3: So that is a person who thinks that if I 235 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 3: just have more money, it will solve everything. If I 236 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: could just get that promotion, make more money, I'm gonna 237 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 3: work harder, I'm gonna work on the weekends. 238 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do all of that to make more money. 239 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 3: And for that, one of the downfalls could be that 240 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: you make more money, you tend to not have as 241 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: strong a relationships with family because you spend so much 242 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 3: time working and you can create debt. 243 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: So that one is also a tough one as well. 244 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: Money status, money status. 245 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 3: So that's a person where they tie their self worth 246 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: to their net worth. 247 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: So that is the. 248 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 3: Flashy You're on social media, you got the latest everything, 249 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 3: keeping up with the Joneses. You're really looking to money 250 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: to create your identity. 251 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: I am really turned off by that. And anyway, money vigilance, I. 252 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: Think this is the one that you are, Katie, So 253 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 3: money vigilance. This person is of the four money personalities. 254 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 3: They're a little bit better with money, but you tend 255 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 3: to save, You're a bit more frugal. The bad end 256 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 3: of that one is that you can tend to oversave 257 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 3: and not enjoy money as much, and it can create 258 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 3: anxiety and stress because you're always worried about if you 259 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 3: have enough money. 260 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: All right, we both took the test, and you are, 261 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: in fact a money worshiper. 262 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: I am. 263 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: I am a money worshiper. And for me with understanding 264 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 3: my own financial health and wellness, seeing that show up 265 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 3: in my life as an adult, and being able to 266 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: address it so that my kids have a different money story. 267 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: And so how are your kids different than you, and 268 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: how are you helping them shape attitudes that will lead 269 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: to financial help throughout their lives. 270 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 3: So I have a fourteen year old son and a 271 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 3: six year old daughter who will be angry if I 272 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 3: don't give her the six and a half because she 273 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: has a birthday coming. But for my son, one of 274 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: the great things about my career at ally is that 275 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: I've been able to take my son on this journey. 276 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: I think when I started working here he was about 277 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: two years old. So my career at. 278 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 3: Ally, I've created financial literacy, children's books, I've created magic 279 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: shows that talk about money, and my son has been 280 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: a part of that journey since he was little. So 281 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: now at fourteen, he's very mature when it comes to 282 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 3: the conversation of money. He understands that you have to spend, save, 283 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: and give. We created little buckets where he would put 284 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: money in the bucket based off of spend, se give 285 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: when he would get his allowance. And we've been doing 286 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: that since he was about six years old. And now 287 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 3: he is able to use the things that I've taught 288 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 3: him in a play. But I think the big thing 289 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 3: with your kids is making sure that they're a part 290 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 3: of a conversation, you know. I think the big difference 291 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: between my parents and some other parents is that we 292 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 3: didn't talk about money. We didn't have those conversations at 293 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 3: the dinner table. We didn't talk about investing or saving. 294 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 3: Money was looked at as a really a tool to 295 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 3: buy things versus an asset that we can use to 296 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 3: create more assets. And with my son, I'm trying to 297 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: teach him something different so that he's more vigilant with 298 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: his money and uses it as a tool to build. 299 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 3: And my daughter, I'm working on her. She's just we 300 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: just got her started on the allowance. 301 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: How do you work on these issues so you can 302 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: really turn a switch in your brain and change your 303 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: attitudes towards money for the better. 304 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: I think the first thing is realizing that it even exists. 305 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 3: So what you've done, Katie, just with this first step 306 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: of understanding your money personality, realizing that you may have 307 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: some subconscious beliefs that show up in your daily life. 308 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 3: I would encourage you to go home and journal about it. 309 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 3: Journal about some of those first memories, the beliefs that 310 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 3: you have, and then from there, once you journal, journal 311 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 3: about it and understand the impact that it has on 312 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: you today, create a different money mantra. So for you, 313 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 3: it may be in the past, I've felt that we 314 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 3: didn't have enough. I feel that you shouldn't spend money 315 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 3: on expensive things. It may be now that I have enough, 316 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 3: I can spend money on things that I budget for. 317 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: Tell me how our money stories impact our adult relationships, 318 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: whether it's with our partners, our bosses, our kids, our family. 319 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 3: I find this idea of your money story and your 320 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 3: financial health and wellness for relationships, specifically for couples, fascinating 321 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 3: because oftentimes you will attract your opposite. So I'm recently divorced, 322 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 3: but when I was married, read my husband was very 323 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 3: frugal and I'm. 324 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: A spender, so for our relationship. 325 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 3: We were attracted to each other because I gave him 326 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 3: a little bit of like, let's have some fun, and 327 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 3: he gave me a little bit of a structure. Where 328 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 3: the issues can come in. Is not realizing the money 329 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 3: story of your partner. So in his eyes, I may 330 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: have looked at been looked upon as irresponsible, or she 331 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 3: just wants to have fun, whatever, you know, she's not 332 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 3: serious about money. So I think oftentimes in our relationships, 333 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 3: by not understanding the money story or the money history 334 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 3: of the people around you, it creates this space for judgment, 335 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 3: It creates a space for shame. When you can unpack 336 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 3: those things, it creates more empathy. 337 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 2: And I think it would. 338 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: Help a lot of marriages if we were to have 339 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 3: this as a part of marital counselor before you got married. 340 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: It's crazy because when I think about the time when 341 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 3: I was getting married, you. 342 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 2: Just want to get married. 343 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 3: You're in love, and you want to have a big 344 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: wedding and all these things. You're not having those conversations 345 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 3: about the soft and higher skills of money. People are 346 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 3: avoiding those conversations because they may be ashamed, and it 347 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 3: just it could be uncomfortable it's a different level of 348 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 3: love when you talk about money. 349 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: Thirty eight percent of marriages split up for precisely this reason. 350 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: They don't see eye to eye on financial issues. 351 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: That's exactly it. 352 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 3: And oftentimes with marriages you think of infidelity, right, there's 353 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 3: sexual infidelity, emotional infidelity, but there's also financial infidelity. 354 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: And what that means is. 355 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 3: Those moments where you keep a secret about money from 356 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 3: your partner or your hiding accounts. It's really being dishonest 357 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 3: about money, and I think it shows up in a 358 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 3: lot of marriages and contributes to the lack of trust 359 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: and stability in a relationship. 360 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question about money and how 361 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: things have changed today. Thirty point six percent of women 362 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: made more money than their husbands. That's up from twenty 363 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: three percent in two thousand and sixteen percent in nineteen 364 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: eighty one. I'm curious how that has impacted relationships because 365 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: when I got married and started making more money than 366 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: my husband, who subsequently passed away, I think it created 367 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: some tension in our relationship. 368 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: I think it has really shifted the stories that we 369 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 3: have about money, conflict within relationships, how we talk about money, 370 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,959 Speaker 3: and really forced us to look at old stereotypes about 371 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: money and gender roles and forced us to really look at. 372 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 2: What is the legacy we want to create for our children. 373 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 3: Right, So for my daughter, I want her to grow 374 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: up and know that she can grow up and be 375 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 3: whatever she wants and have a career and do all 376 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 3: those things the same thing that my mother did. So 377 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 3: it's really opening up this conversation about money of making 378 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 3: sure that the. 379 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: Roles have support. So if you're our working mom, making. 380 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 3: Sure you get that support outside of the home, and 381 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 3: then when it comes to money, ensuring that the couple 382 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: is on the same page with reaching their financial goals. 383 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: Women need to really understand their finances much more than 384 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: they do. Is that changing. 385 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 3: The conversation has changed, But as women, we also have 386 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 3: to take responsibility for our money. Take responsibility for the 387 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 3: things that you're invested in, even if it's through your 388 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: four oh one k at work, Understanding the accounts that 389 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 3: your family has, going through your estate plan. So I'm 390 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 3: working on my updated estate plan now post divorce, and 391 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: it's hard. I think we avoid these things because they're 392 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 3: tough conversations and it's easy to pass it off to 393 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 3: somebody else. Funny enough, so during my money story journey 394 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 3: with Ally, I use our advisors here. My biggest fear 395 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 3: that came up for me is being a poor old lady. 396 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: And I think what comes up is that women often 397 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 3: live longer than men. We're not a part of the 398 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 3: money conversations, so we have this fear that the money 399 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 3: will run out. So how much money do I actually 400 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: need to live to be ninety five? You need to 401 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: know that, and you need to create a savings and 402 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 3: investing plan to help you to ensure that you'll be okay. 403 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 3: You'll be covered and also not only be covered, but 404 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: be able to leave a legacy for your children, a 405 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 3: legacy within the community. 406 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll be joined by Kirsten and 407 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: Julian Saunders. They have some great advice about how couples 408 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: can navigate hard conversations about money. Let's bring in Kirsten 409 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: and Julian Saunders into this conversation, the founders of and 410 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: Regular and they have their own money story to tell. 411 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: I thought it was so interesting Juliane and Kirsten that 412 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: thirty eight percent of marriages and over arguments about money. 413 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: So you have been able to successfully navigate your different 414 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: approaches and attitudes and philosophies about money. How were you 415 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: able to do that and was anybody hurt in the process. 416 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the first thing was just coming to 417 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 4: grips with that stat. We saw that stat when we 418 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,239 Speaker 4: got engaged, and we were, you know, thinking about how 419 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 4: we're going to do premarital counseling or do we want 420 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 4: to do like a joint therapy, But we decided that 421 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 4: we knew the number one reason that people were getting 422 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 4: divorced or at least having arguments in a marriage was 423 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 4: around money, and we wanted to take that one off 424 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 4: the table for us. We were like, if we're going 425 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 4: to have an issue, is going to be with thing 426 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 4: number two, three, or four, not not about money. And 427 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 4: so when we both committed to that, that was a 428 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 4: kind of a sauce or a secret weapon in our marriage. 429 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: So, Julian, your first argument was over credit card debt, right, Yeah. 430 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 5: Well it wasn't just our first argument. It was our 431 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 5: very first open conversation about money. I mean, we met 432 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 5: at work and we decided to take a trip. Shortly 433 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 5: after a meeting, things were going really well, and we said, 434 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 5: why not step our foot on the gas, And so 435 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 5: we literally took a vacation and we hang back. We 436 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 5: spent a lot of money, and when we came back, 437 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 5: I sort of decided that, you know, all right, it's 438 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 5: time to kind of jump back into the regular way 439 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 5: of doing things, which is, you know, cutting back and 440 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 5: being mindflow of the budget, especially knowing how much we 441 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 5: just spent, and she wanted to go ahead and keep 442 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 5: the party going. She wanted to literally celebrate the fact 443 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 5: that we'd just taken a vacation. And long story short, 444 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 5: you know, it kind of came to a head and 445 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 5: I said some words that I have come to regret 446 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 5: in some ways. But I told her, you know, after 447 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 5: learning that she already had credit card debt and that 448 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 5: vacation was building on top of that, that if I 449 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 5: knew she had that, that I would not have dated her. 450 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 5: And the reason why I said that, even though I 451 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 5: know that that's a horrible thing to say looking back, 452 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 5: because I had had really, really bad experiences dealing with 453 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 5: my own debt, I felt like that was actually the 454 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 5: righteous and responsible thing to do. But obviously, now that 455 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 5: I've had some time to reflect on it, it was 456 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 5: very rude and sensitive. 457 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 3: So I must admit I'm a big fan of your 458 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 3: book Cashing Out, and on that part, I have it 459 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 3: on audible. When you said I'm done dating, I was like, oh, no, 460 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 3: he did not do that to her. 461 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 2: What is he doing? 462 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 3: So, Kirsten, I know in the book you both were 463 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 3: able to dig into your perspectives of money, and Katie 464 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: and I actually talked about our money stories earlier. Both 465 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 3: of you come from very different backgrounds, which means you 466 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: have very different money stories. Can you share your money 467 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 3: story and let us know how it impacts your relationship today? 468 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, we were, as you said, born on two different 469 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 4: sides of the track. I grew up pretty traditional, middle class, 470 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 4: two parent household here in Atlanta. On top of that, 471 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 4: I was a church girl, and so a lot of 472 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 4: the early teachings that I had about life were faith based. 473 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 4: I believed in things like abundance. I believed in faith 474 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 4: the size of a mustard seed. And so that's what 475 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 4: I would default to when he would ask these very 476 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 4: specific questions about my religion. I would just be like 477 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 4: God got me, Like, no, there's no limit to what's possible, 478 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 4: instead of understanding that it requires work as well. 479 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: It still requires a plan. 480 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 4: And so when we had our first conversation about money, 481 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 4: and he was asking, like, how do you expect to 482 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 4: pay for this vacation. I was very clear, like through 483 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 4: credit cards. I thought that was normal. I didn't know 484 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 4: that you're supposed to pay the credit card off every 485 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 4: month or I thought that was like an option. I 486 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 4: didn't think that was like the best practice. 487 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, and my story is different, right, so we kind 488 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 5: of frame it up as in her story as a 489 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 5: version of the Huxtables or the Cosby Show, and mine 490 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 5: was more like a Jamaican version of good times, Like 491 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 5: it was hard. And I grew up in nineteen eighties Brooklyn, 492 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 5: New York, and it was a very different Brooklyn than 493 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 5: you see today. And so my mom worked in Manhattan, 494 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 5: and so I remember there were times we'd go up 495 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 5: on the roof, not my mom but just me being 496 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 5: a young kid, and you go up on the roof 497 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 5: and you would see Manhattan. It was like, oh, that's 498 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 5: where the money is, Like there's money over there. But 499 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 5: it just felt like it was like mythical, right, it 500 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 5: was almost like from being honest, you just take pride 501 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 5: in that, like your ability to survive and your ability 502 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 5: to stress a dollar and your ability to get by 503 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 5: but you learn pretty quickly that that only gets you 504 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 5: so far, and especially when it comes to relationships, that 505 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 5: mentality can actually get in the way because you do 506 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 5: actually need money to nurture relationships, not just romantic relationships, 507 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 5: but familiar relationships and just social friendships and so on. 508 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: So fascinating, isn't it, Jack? And also the idea of 509 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: like Julian, I would imagine your mantra was never living 510 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: beyond your means, while Kirsten's was always living beyond your 511 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: means because you could pay for it. You could enjoy 512 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: it now and pay for it later. 513 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: That's exactly it. That's exactly it, Jack. 514 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious when you hear these stories, do you think, 515 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: oh my god, these two it's a recipe for disaster. 516 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: No, you know what it is. Yes, it does sound 517 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: like acid. 518 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 3: And if you read the book and you hear how 519 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 3: firm he was with her on that on having dead, 520 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 3: it'll blow your mind. But I'm curious, you know you 521 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 3: were able to get to a place so early in 522 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 3: your relationship Julian of addressing the money conversation, which is 523 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 3: often so taboo in society and relationships in general, how 524 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 3: did you both get to a place of being able 525 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 3: to have that conversation and Kirsten for you being able 526 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: to receive it and move forward. 527 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 5: Yeah. So first I would say it's just love, right, 528 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 5: like there was an undeniable love and an attraction there. 529 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 5: And the second part, I would say it was bewildering 530 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 5: because I was just so confused as to why I 531 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 5: was so willing to throw away something that I really 532 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,719 Speaker 5: really loved it, enjoy out of this deeprooted fear. And 533 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 5: so luckily the sort of rational part of my brain 534 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 5: was like, like, why would you do that? Why would 535 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 5: you throw that away? 536 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: And Kirsten to follow up, Yeah, what Jack asked, how 537 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: were you able to receive it and not be defensive 538 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: and you know, reject Julian because he was so different 539 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: than you were in terms of his attitudes. 540 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 2: Thank you for putting in nice, so different, so different. 541 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 4: Well, I think this is where the other side of 542 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 4: the faith coin comes in. I knew that there needed 543 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 4: to be grace there for him and for me, and 544 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 4: I actually was quite defensive, and that was my first 545 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 4: indicator that like, maybe he was right, because I think 546 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 4: when people get defensive, they tend to think that they're 547 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 4: standing up for themselves or defending themselves, because you don't 548 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 4: get defensive when you think somebody is wrong. When somebody's wrong, 549 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 4: you're like, whatever, that's crazy, Like that's crazy talk. You 550 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 4: get defensive when you feel that they may be kind 551 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 4: of right, Like you get defensive when it's like, ooh, 552 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 4: that's stung a little bit. You saw something in me 553 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 4: that I kind of believe myself that I know I 554 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 4: know better, but I'm doing this differently. And so when 555 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 4: I took that time to actually kind of audit my behaviors, 556 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 4: look at how reckless or loose I was being with 557 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 4: my finances, I was like, he kind of has a point. 558 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: I'd like to ask all three of you a question, 559 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: and that is how much tension now arises between spouses 560 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 1: or partners because so many more women are working, and 561 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: that means in some cases, women are out earning their husbands. 562 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: And I think in some traditional marriages, or if like 563 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: the husband didn't have a working mom, that can sometimes 564 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: be an affront to their manhood in some ways, even 565 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: if it's subconsciously so, that can create all kinds of 566 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: issues in a marriage, can it not. 567 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 4: We see that and hear that all the time. I 568 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 4: think there's two sides of that coin. On the one hand, 569 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,239 Speaker 4: because women are more likely to be breadwinners than they 570 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 4: were before, it's giving way for men to be more 571 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 4: active fathers and take paternity leave and perhaps opt into 572 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 4: being a stay at home dad and get the breaks 573 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 4: from their career that they desire. But on the other hand, 574 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 4: women are learning what it feels like to have the 575 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 4: power of being the breadwinner, and there's some fumbling along 576 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 4: the way. We're hearing a lot of people either coming 577 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 4: into the realization that they need a plan, a lot 578 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 4: of women specifically coming into the realization that they need 579 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 4: a plan. Even when you look at pre nups, the 580 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 4: leading cohort, leading generation of prenups are millennial women asking 581 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 4: for them, requesting them, making sure that that's the foundation 582 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 4: of their marriage. Because this idea very similar to jobs, 583 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 4: which has gone through a similar cultural transition. This idea 584 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 4: that something is forever ever is becoming less and less 585 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 4: statistically relevant, and so protecting yourself going in is more 586 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 4: important now than it was before. And then the same 587 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 4: it's just true with divorcing. We hear from a lot 588 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 4: of women who are basically starting over. They lost a 589 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 4: great bit of their savings and divorce. A lot of 590 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 4: the conversations that we have are about encouraging people to 591 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 4: leave the shame behind and start to tell the story 592 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 4: so that other people can learn and so that we 593 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 4: socially can make some of these conversations and these decisions 594 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 4: more normalized as the future, as future generations continue to 595 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 4: get married. 596 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: We're almost out of time, but I want to ask 597 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: you all about how you deal with financial disagreements, because 598 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: nobody's perfect, and I'm sure you occasionally don't see eye 599 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: to eye on financial issues. And since it's the cause 600 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: of so much marital strife, you have figured out a 601 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: way to get through things when you have a disagreement. 602 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: So let's talk about those. One is Elmo. What does 603 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: that mean? So? 604 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 4: Elmo is an acronym for enough, let's move on. And 605 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 4: we actually so when our son was little, used to 606 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 4: have an Elmo doll that we just put on the table, 607 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 4: like okay, Elmo. Because there's a way of talking around 608 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 4: a subjects so much that you lose the plot and 609 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 4: we forget what we're talking about. And so sometimes we'll 610 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 4: get into keeping score, bringing up old stuff, adding in 611 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 4: other stories from other people, and if it's not productive. 612 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 4: We'll just say okay, Elmo and move on to the 613 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 4: next thing. 614 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: You also have, tell me more. That's the opposite of Elmo. 615 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. 616 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 5: But it was clearly a rule that was designed for 617 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 5: me or people like me. But it's really just a 618 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 5: way to ensure that you are inviting your partner into 619 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 5: a conversation about money, giving them room or space to 620 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 5: explore their idea. And you're basically just when they ask 621 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 5: for that crazy thing or bring up that crazy thing, 622 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 5: tell me more. And by the third or fourth tell 623 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 5: me more. By the time you get to the third 624 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 5: or fourth thing, they bother talk themselves out of it, 625 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 5: or they've brought up a red line point. Yeah. And 626 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 5: it's just creates an environment where I think you are 627 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 5: inviting someone else to share their point of view, as 628 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 5: opposed to saying, nope, here's my heart fast rule. It's 629 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 5: not in a budget. I'm gonna shut this thing down. 630 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 5: Because reality is, these things are natural. You're gonna have ideas, 631 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 5: You're gonna have temptations, and I think everyone deserves an 632 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 5: opportunity to explore them. 633 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 1: I see your son walking in the background, so cute. 634 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: And by the way, I love I love your safe 635 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: word too, you have to come up with that. 636 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, So this was a way because I'm the more 637 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 4: conflict averse one in the group, and so this was 638 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 4: a way for me to exit a conversation or say 639 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 4: I need a pause before things got even more escalated. 640 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 4: If I needed to collect myself emotionally, we would come 641 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 4: up with this safe word. And our safe word is donuts. 642 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 4: And so in the middle of a conversation, I can say, like, yo, donuts, 643 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 4: I'm done talking about this. I don't want to cry 644 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 4: right now, like I'm too emotional, Like donuts, let's just 645 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 4: revisit this next week. And it's so slight, it's in 646 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 4: the middle of a sentence, but it's enough to be like. 647 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 2: All right. 648 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 3: I really admire the work that both of you have 649 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 3: put into allowing communication, getting to know each other's stories. 650 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 3: If more people were doing what they're doing, we could 651 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 3: save a lot of marriages of just having the conversation 652 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 3: and loving each other. I think you mentioned that earlier, Julian, like, 653 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 3: you have this person that you love, so why would 654 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 3: you let money come in between it when it's something 655 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 3: that definitely can be navigated. 656 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: So kudos to both of you. Thank you for being 657 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 2: an example. It's taken me a. 658 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 3: While to get to where I am. I didn't just 659 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 3: come out the womb knowing how to deal with money. 660 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 3: We know that, so given everybody that grace. It's something 661 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 3: that we have to keep in mind and keeping the 662 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 3: communication open. All of that is needed, slowing down conversations 663 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 3: about money. 664 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 2: Also having your boundaries around money. 665 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 3: These are all things when we mentioned earlier of having 666 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 3: a plan in the beginning, what are your values around money, 667 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 3: what are your non negotiables, and sharing that with your 668 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 3: family in a very kind and understanding way. I think 669 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: that's how you set up those boundaries and get everybody 670 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 3: on the same page and they secretly will learn from 671 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 3: you in that process. 672 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: Well, this was so fun. I've learned so much. I've 673 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: really loved getting to know you all virtually. Jacqueline aka Jack, 674 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: and Julian and Kirsten, thank you so much for spending 675 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: time with us. This was really interesting. I know my 676 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: money story. I'm money vigilance. 677 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: I love that. 678 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: In other words, I'm cheap frue goal. I prefer frugal 679 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: to cheat anyway, Thank you all so much. This was 680 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: really a great conversation. 681 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 2: I so appreciate it you take care. 682 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for 683 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: me or want to share your thoughts about how you 684 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a 685 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: short message at six oh nine five point two by 686 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: five oh five, or you can send me a DM 687 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next 688 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. 689 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Meet, Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. 690 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana 691 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, 692 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: who also composed our theme music. For more information about 693 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake 694 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, 695 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also 696 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. 697 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 698 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.