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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Fridagg Podcast. Today
Speaker 1: is the seventh episode of our Superintendent series. We are
Speaker 1: joined by Rich Shilling. Rich is the head superintendent at
Speaker 1: Jeffersonville Golf Course in Jeffersonville, Pennsylvania. It is a municipal
Speaker 1: golf course is one of the busiest golf courses in
Speaker 1: the country, getting over forty thousand rounds a year. It's
Speaker 1: a Donald Ross design and since Rich has been there,
Speaker 1: has seen massive improvements and is one of the best
Speaker 1: courses you can play in Philadelphia, that anybody can play
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. So we talked to Rich about all kinds
Speaker 1: of stuff, his background, what he's doing in these odd times,
Speaker 1: and how Jeffersonville has continued to evolve since he's been there. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, here is Rich Shilling.
Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 1: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in.
Speaker 1: A brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida,
Speaker 1: egg Frida, egg egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm
Speaker 1: about ready to run off of THELF course.
Speaker 3: What have you been doing at home to keep you busy?
Speaker 2: Funny story. I sold my house in September because me
Speaker 2: and my wife, the cyber, are going to downsize. My
Speaker 2: daughters seventeen, so she's going away to college and you
Speaker 2: know a year and a half hopefully we had this shutdown.
Speaker 3: Might be might be with you for an extra semester.
Speaker 2: I know, right, So we were having a house built.
Speaker 2: We settled on our on our old house. In January,
Speaker 2: new house is being built and they shut down construction.
Speaker 2: So I'm stuck in an apartment for god knows how long.
Speaker 2: We were only planning on being there for four months,
Speaker 2: but now it's looking like we're six seven months.
Speaker 1: So so even better. You're in tight quarters with a
Speaker 1: quarantine or standing a shelter and place order.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a two bedroom apartment, one bathroom, two kids and
Speaker 2: a dog. Oh man, Oh it's fun. I'm actually sharing
Speaker 2: my son's bedroom because my daughter wants no part of that.
Speaker 3: Unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Everybody's probably getting closer than they ever were though.
Speaker 2: Well, it's inevitable, right, it's a good thing, you know,
Speaker 2: to reset, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's I've been cooking like my wife,
Speaker 1: and I've been cooking more than ever, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think like that's something I'm when this addens,
Speaker 1: like we're still going to cook a lot more than
Speaker 1: we used to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been getting familiarized with the with the instapot mules. Amazing.
Speaker 2: It's pretty awesome. Yeah, really good recipes you can find online.
Speaker 2: So we've been pretty successful so far with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about the golf course? What what's uh? What
Speaker 1: do you have to do with the staff? You're down
Speaker 1: and Philadelphia and then what what's the what's the situation
Speaker 1: with your staff and and how you've been you know,
Speaker 1: doing maintenance in this weird time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the township has been really great because it's
Speaker 2: a municipal off course. They have allowed me to keep
Speaker 2: all my staff on, so even some of the college
Speaker 2: kids are now college is basically just zoom classes. They
Speaker 2: come in three days a week. I got them back early,
Speaker 2: and then my regular staff, so I have ten guys
Speaker 2: on plus me, and we're able to get you know
Speaker 2: a lot of things done and if the weather would cooperate.
Speaker 2: You know, it's been pretty cold out here lately and rainy,
Speaker 2: but finished up some green expansions, all my verifications done,
Speaker 2: like I said, and it's been a superintendent's dream.
Speaker 3: No, no golf, it's got to be a so different
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 1: I mean you're at you know, Jeffersonsville's one of the
Speaker 1: busiest courses in the country.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We did forty two thousand rounds last year, just
Speaker 2: over forty two thousand rounds, and you know, that's basically
Speaker 2: an eight month season. We're open twelve months, but the
Speaker 2: majority of those rounds come in that eight month period,
Speaker 2: so it's it's really different I kind of getting a
Speaker 2: feel for what the country club life's like.
Speaker 1: Do you guys operate around the same hours or obviously
Speaker 1: I imagine when it's seasoned, when golfers are coming out with
Speaker 1: your heavy play, it's like a matter of we got
Speaker 1: to get all this done as quick as possible in
Speaker 1: this order. Have you changed any any way, like you
Speaker 1: guys mow or go about it where you have like
Speaker 1: a different sequence.
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, we're starting later. We're starting at seven work
Speaker 2: seven to three. Now, typically we start at five. We
Speaker 2: try to stay ahead of play play and during the
Speaker 2: week starts at six thirty. So we send three fairway
Speaker 2: mowers out, greens mower, two cup changers to approach mowers,
Speaker 2: and a team mower to stay ahead of play. But
Speaker 2: right now we're just kind of going with the flow,
Speaker 2: you know, go whatever hold you want to go to
Speaker 2: the sow.
Speaker 1: How often do you have to mow to keep the course?
Speaker 1: You know, I know if it goes uncapped, you know,
Speaker 1: you can have some grasses invade invade the greens and
Speaker 1: different problems occur.
Speaker 3: What frequency are you are you guys mowing right now?
Speaker 2: The grass isn't really growing too fast. Temperatures are in
Speaker 2: the low fifties overnights or in the thirties. So we're
Speaker 2: mowing fairways once or twice a week, greens or twice
Speaker 2: a week right now, teas once a week. So it's
Speaker 2: not really a typical mowing week for us in season
Speaker 2: in season where mowing three days a week fairways, teas
Speaker 2: approaches and seven days a week greens. But I don't
Speaker 2: think you want to go longer than a week without
Speaker 2: mewing greens, otherwise you're gonna have a hard time getting
Speaker 2: them back. That's interesting and fair and fairways, you know
Speaker 2: you're gonna lose your edges and scalp them down. I mean,
Speaker 2: we've gone eleven days without knowing fairways because of you know, precipitation.
Speaker 1: But tell us about how you got into turf at Jeffersonville.
Speaker 1: You've been there for a long time.
Speaker 2: This is my twentieth season here at Jeffersonville. I got
Speaker 2: to Jeffersonville because, well, me and my wife had planned
Speaker 2: to move to Delaware. I was working at a course
Speaker 2: down there called the Rookery, and she got cold feet.
Speaker 2: She didn't want to leave her friends and family, so
Speaker 2: I looked for a job back up here in the
Speaker 2: Norristown area and Jeffersville was advertising for an assistant superintendent.
Speaker 2: So I applied for that job, interviewed, had three interviews.
Speaker 2: It turned out that the superintendent that was here at
Speaker 2: the time, Joe Peelis, he was getting ready to retire,
Speaker 2: so they were looking for his replacement. So I was
Speaker 2: lucky enough to get the job. And my wife's happy,
Speaker 2: and now she'd rather be down the shore probably, but.
Speaker 3: Especially with the apartment.
Speaker 2: She probably doesn't talk to any of those friends that
Speaker 2: she stayed up here for us.
Speaker 1: So you've been there for twenty plus years, So what
Speaker 1: was it like when you got there? It was before
Speaker 1: the Pritcher renovation.
Speaker 2: Right, it was the very beginning of the Pritchard renovation.
Speaker 2: The course was what I considered neglected for many years.
Speaker 2: Fairways were probably ninety eight Clover there was. It was terrible.
Speaker 2: I mean there was no from no fault of the
Speaker 2: superintendent that was here. It's just the township didn't want
Speaker 2: to put money into the course, so there was no
Speaker 2: spraying going on. Everything was mode Gang Bowers. They may
Speaker 2: have had two triplexes at the time, one for greens,
Speaker 2: one for teas and actually I think they used the
Speaker 2: team mower and they would flip it up to a
Speaker 2: different height to cut around the around the greens. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So my big goal in the beginning was to start
Speaker 2: building the fleet. We had no equipment.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: We were still mowing the fairways with gangmowers, you know,
Speaker 2: through the renovation and after the renovation, I talked the
Speaker 2: township into buying us some but two fairway mowers and
Speaker 2: immediately solved difference in uh turf quality. After obviously we
Speaker 2: sprayed all the weeds everything out out of this place.
Speaker 3: What was it? Uh? What was it like?
Speaker 2: You were?
Speaker 1: You came in and you immediately got thrust into a
Speaker 1: big a pretty big project, and you know, much different
Speaker 1: than a lot of ways people would say the ideal
Speaker 1: way to restore a golf courses is that you've got
Speaker 1: people playing at the same time as you guys are
Speaker 1: doing work. Had you had you been part of any
Speaker 1: construction projects before you got to Jeffersonville and uh and
Speaker 1: if so, you know, how was it different with people
Speaker 1: playing while while you guys were doing work.
Speaker 2: I was part of the tail end of the growing
Speaker 2: at the Rookery down in Delaware. I was mainly on
Speaker 2: bunker work. That was completely different as we were closed
Speaker 2: during that construction. This one was very difficult. We didn't
Speaker 2: even have irrigation to the fairways or to the bunkers
Speaker 2: or wherever we were sided sidding. We had a water
Speaker 2: with spray rigs, so there would be truckloads of sod
Speaker 2: coming in and we just have to have to fill
Speaker 2: up the spray and water all the sod. It's ninety
Speaker 2: five degrees out. I mean, it was just kind of
Speaker 2: a disease really, And.
Speaker 3: He got hundreds of golfers.
Speaker 2: And hundreds of golfers, you know, but most skies do
Speaker 2: construction the shoulder seasons, and we were doing it right
Speaker 2: in the heat of the summer. And there was a
Speaker 2: draft that year too, so that didn't help.
Speaker 1: That had to be I mean in a way, it
Speaker 1: threw you into the deep end and it put you
Speaker 1: in this sink or swim position.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was. I was in over my head
Speaker 2: for sure. I remember driving around with one of my
Speaker 2: sales reps and he said, if he could pull this
Speaker 2: off and get a job anywhere, But I never left here.
Speaker 2: We're still trying to pull it off.
Speaker 1: That's uh, what what is I guess what was the
Speaker 1: biggest changes that that the Pritchard plan brought back?
Speaker 3: Was it you know?
Speaker 1: Was it mostly just recapturing stuff? Had there been a
Speaker 1: lot of work done to the course in the in
Speaker 1: the intermittent years between when Ross did it originally?
Speaker 2: Well, the only work that was done before Pritchard got
Speaker 2: here was you know, they filled in almost every bunker. Uh,
Speaker 2: and they planted a ton of evergreen trees.
Speaker 3: The best trees.
Speaker 2: Yeah. In ninety four, Uh, the township got a grant
Speaker 2: for tree plannings for municipalities and they basically put them
Speaker 2: right the very corner of every fairway and then eighteen
Speaker 2: years later we cut them all down.
Speaker 1: What did the what did the trees do from like
Speaker 1: an agronomic sense to the uh to the ability to
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned you had you had clover fairways.
Speaker 1: But did they add to the turmues?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Not only are they are they casting shadows all
Speaker 2: year long evergreen trees, but you know they're robbing all
Speaker 2: the moisture out of the soil. They're creating wear patterns
Speaker 2: because all the golf carts are riding around the trees
Speaker 2: certain areas because they were so tightly planted. There's many
Speaker 2: reasons why you should never plant those types of trees
Speaker 2: on the golf course.
Speaker 1: I imagined that when you guys have turf issues, it's only
Speaker 1: magnified by you know, the intense amount of play, you know,
Speaker 1: doing forty thousand rounds essentially in ten months.
Speaker 3: You know, the right it it.
Speaker 1: You almost have to be more cautious than a club,
Speaker 1: high end club that's getting ten thousand rounds a.
Speaker 2: Year from a play standpoint.
Speaker 3: Just from like, from like a turf health standpoint.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, we can't drive the greens out
Speaker 2: like a lot of these other guys and chase hotspots
Speaker 2: all afternoon because we just can't get all the greens
Speaker 2: when there's two hundred and eighteen players on the golf course.
Speaker 2: I think that's what we averaged last year. It's just
Speaker 2: impossible to do a lot of things, you know. So
Speaker 2: we water a little bit more with overhead sprinklers, and
Speaker 2: we fertilize a little bit more so that the turf
Speaker 2: can recover from ballmarks and traffic patterns. But you know,
Speaker 2: the greens were built in nineteen thirty one, so they
Speaker 2: don't really need to be that fast. Greens. The natural
Speaker 2: undulations of the greens, as long as they're consistent I
Speaker 2: think they're good rolling at a you know, an eight
Speaker 2: and a half or nine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: I mean you could you get yourself in trouble and
Speaker 1: it would probably slow down play. I mean, does pace
Speaker 1: of play just think you about it. Does pace of
Speaker 1: play factor in how you guys set up at Jeffersonville?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I used and not think about it, used to
Speaker 2: not care and just say, you know, I want to,
Speaker 2: you know, for my own ego, I wanted the Greens
Speaker 2: rolling ten ten and a half. But when guys are
Speaker 2: you know, four or five button on the eighteenth hole,
Speaker 2: it starts to get old here in the you know,
Speaker 2: hearing the complaints, complaints, and you know, not listening to them.
Speaker 2: I should have listened to them and said, you know what,
Speaker 2: they're right, Maybe we need to slow the Greens down.
Speaker 2: And the pace of play you know now is average
Speaker 2: four four hours, four and a half hours on the weekends,
Speaker 2: when it was probably it was probably fine a half hours before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I bet, I bet.
Speaker 1: I mean that's you see it even on the PGA tour,
Speaker 1: where like when the Greens are really fast, like the
Speaker 1: pace of play just like balloon so quick, you know,
Speaker 1: and these are what you're talking about the best players
Speaker 1: of the world, not not your you know weekend uh
Speaker 1: weekend warriors.
Speaker 2: Right us more. And the other thing is we just
Speaker 2: don't have We have two acres of greens, so we
Speaker 2: really don't have a lot of pin locations, so we
Speaker 2: have to reuse a lot of locations. Our eighteenth green
Speaker 2: literally has two pin locations that are fair. Everything else.
Speaker 2: It's just like close your eyes with pray.
Speaker 3: So how hard is that?
Speaker 1: Because obviously you get two hundred and eighteen people like
Speaker 1: walking in the same places all the time. What do
Speaker 1: you do from a turf standpoint, like, what do you
Speaker 1: try and do to keep that grass consistent with the
Speaker 1: rest of the grass you have all over the course?
Speaker 3: Is that a challenge.
Speaker 2: The grass on the greens?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like specifically the eighteenth where you only have two pins.
Speaker 2: I maintain it exactly the same way. Some of the
Speaker 2: pins are just a little sketchy that get put out there,
Speaker 2: you know. I make sure that those that the that
Speaker 2: the fair pin placements are saved for Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Speaker 1: That makes sense if you go to do on you.
Speaker 2: If you go on a Monday, he maybe five but.
Speaker 1: In that green, just that just know that your scores.
Speaker 1: You know they should change the slope and rating for
Speaker 1: early weekday play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You know that's not the only one. I mean,
Speaker 2: the fifteenth green, the fourteenth green. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: greens that are pretty tricky out here.
Speaker 3: That eighteenth green is really cool though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's vicious, that one is. I hit it last
Speaker 2: year in two from the tips, and I know you did.
Speaker 1: You must have been playing an early weekday.
Speaker 2: I think I was. Yeah, it was probably a Tuesday.
Speaker 1: You've been doing You've been doing a ton of expansions
Speaker 1: and you guys. I think it's interesting you guys did
Speaker 1: this Pritchard project and you did a significant chunk of
Speaker 1: it the gate and then but you left a lot
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 3: And one of the things I.
Speaker 1: Appreciate most about what you and the township are doing
Speaker 1: is it seems like you're constantly trying to improve the product.
Speaker 1: You've got a very busy golf course. You've got, of
Speaker 1: course people love in the area, and for good reason.
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's a well designed golf course for
Speaker 1: a very affordable rate, and you keep improving it rather
Speaker 1: than kind of resting on your laurels. Talk about how
Speaker 1: you guys have kind of gone about the course improvement
Speaker 1: plan from a budgeting and work standpoint of, you know, hey,
Speaker 1: we're going to tackle these projects.
Speaker 2: Well, to be honest with you, in twenty eleven, you
Speaker 2: spray to herbicide. I don't know if you probably have
Speaker 2: heard about it. Dupon put out for broad leaf for
Speaker 2: broad leaf weeds, and yeah, we that year we started
Speaker 2: to see a decline in all of our white pines
Speaker 2: and Norway spruces in here. Those those specific species were
Speaker 2: susceptible to this to the service side, so we filed
Speaker 2: acclaim with DuPont, settled, got a nice settlement check. They
Speaker 2: cut down all the pine trees at their cost, so
Speaker 2: that gave us a decent amount of money that we
Speaker 2: could throw back into the course. And that's what really
Speaker 2: started it. We took down about one hundred and eighty
Speaker 2: trees that year and the golf course just changed so dramatically.
Speaker 2: The first hole especially is just you know, an epic
Speaker 2: hole without the pine trees. Now after that, you know,
Speaker 2: we started doing some some projects. I started rebuilding it,
Speaker 2: a few bunkers that were in need kind of triage.
Speaker 2: The areas that were really bad, I did wedid the
Speaker 2: thirteenth Green complex that was really run down. And then
Speaker 2: Ron saw something on Facebook and commented and actually messaged
Speaker 2: me and said, Hey, I want to come out and
Speaker 2: help you out a little bit. Maybe we can expand
Speaker 2: some fairways. I can paint some lines out for you,
Speaker 2: some new fairway cut lines, and we can work from there.
Speaker 2: So he came out and we did some of that,
Speaker 2: and he'said, you know what, I see, you're doing a
Speaker 2: lot of things here, and I got a guy that
Speaker 2: can help you out. So I said, okay, I'm you know,
Speaker 2: anybody that can help them be great. And he introduced
Speaker 2: me to Tyler Ray. So that was probably two thousand
Speaker 2: and sixteen. Tyler came out and did a bunker complex
Speaker 2: for me and just like opened my eyes to what
Speaker 2: this complex should really look like. And ever since then,
Speaker 2: we've just been kind of hammering things out, peddle of
Speaker 2: the metal, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you do that with obviously the amount
Speaker 1: of play?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 3: Is it taking? Is it really?
Speaker 1: You know? I think like a lot of places would
Speaker 1: just shut down a hole, but you're not really in
Speaker 1: the position you can do that. Is it literally like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to tackle one bunker at a time or
Speaker 1: how how does that work?
Speaker 2: That's exactly what we do. We tackle one area at
Speaker 2: a time, you know, just from a budget standpoint too.
Speaker 2: We do a lot of the work in house. Obviously,
Speaker 2: Tyler will come in and shape out a bunker complex
Speaker 2: and then we'll sod and trade and at the sand.
Speaker 2: But we just have to dodge bullets. Man, just start
Speaker 2: start the project and let the let the play play through.
Speaker 2: They and the golfers don't mind, you know. Uh, they
Speaker 2: love to see improvements. I've noticed that, you know, since
Speaker 2: we started. They really appreciative of us not letting the
Speaker 2: place go revert back to what it was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that, I mean, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: It's a and I imagine like golfers, have you noticed,
Speaker 1: like anything with when you got the trees out, did
Speaker 1: play a pace of play get faster?
Speaker 2: Probably did. It's hard to say. We do so many rounds,
Speaker 2: so I mean, I guess we did because we're doing
Speaker 2: even more rounds now. But you know, the funny thing
Speaker 2: is the golfers complained about all the trees coming down
Speaker 2: because they thought we were making the place easier. They
Speaker 2: thought that that the trees were going to affect their handicap,
Speaker 2: but that was just you know, it can be further
Speaker 2: from the truth because it really doesn't affect the slope
Speaker 2: and rating of the golf course at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's like a covin. Everybody always oh,
Speaker 1: you're taking the trees out, but unless you have like
Speaker 1: healthier grass and healthier rough so you know, the rough
Speaker 1: atom is more.
Speaker 3: Of a penalty.
Speaker 2: Exactly. I always ask them do you play out of
Speaker 2: the trees? You climb up that tree, pick your ball out.
Speaker 2: They already want to play off the turf.
Speaker 1: That's another good one is just to say, hey, when
Speaker 1: was the last time you.
Speaker 2: Broke par Oh? Exactly. There's very few that break bar here,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've been doing a ton of green expansions,
Speaker 1: and obviously I think that's something that we see it
Speaker 1: all all types of clubs, like everywhere kind of needs
Speaker 1: to get what how have you been going about doing
Speaker 1: the expansions.
Speaker 2: So what we did was we tried, you know, one
Speaker 2: thing and kind of failed at it. We were just
Speaker 2: going to try to scalp down the collars and some
Speaker 2: of the rough areas and just slowly bring them down
Speaker 2: into two green sights. But unfortunately the collar dams are
Speaker 2: so bad that those areas just they just couldn't handle it.
Speaker 2: So what we what we did as a backup plan,
Speaker 2: we ever fought. When we raified, we collected all the
Speaker 2: cores and created a nursery green with all those cores
Speaker 2: so that we had a good match of sod. So
Speaker 2: basically what we do is we shell out the outside
Speaker 2: of the green and do an extra pass around the
Speaker 2: collar where the collar dam was, and then resawe that
Speaker 2: area the side that we grew from the from the plugs.
Speaker 1: That's that's so it's exactly the same turf that you
Speaker 1: have on the greens.
Speaker 2: It's pretty pretty darn close. Yeah. I mean we do
Speaker 2: overseed with some bank crass, so there may be a
Speaker 2: little bit more bank grass in those areas because they
Speaker 2: hadn't had traffic going them for eighteen months. But but yeah,
Speaker 2: it's pretty close. Definitely closer than buying side from the
Speaker 2: from the.
Speaker 3: Sod form and a lot cost effective, right.
Speaker 2: Sure. Absolutely, it is a little bit more labor intensive
Speaker 2: there because you're stripping side twice.
Speaker 3: So would do you?
Speaker 1: Uh, I'm just just curious how many you know, how
Speaker 1: BIG's your side farm? And like you know, if you
Speaker 1: if you want to go, you know, all out on
Speaker 1: exp engines. How much turf could you get down in
Speaker 1: what kind of impact? Like how many greens would that equal?
Speaker 2: Well, we can probably expand the nursery to about six
Speaker 2: thousand square feet, so theoretically we could probably do five
Speaker 2: greens a year with that side. But there's a lot
Speaker 2: of waste that goes in that too, so it's hard
Speaker 2: to say.
Speaker 1: And how long does it take to turn around? Like
Speaker 1: where you take the cores out, how long is the
Speaker 1: growing period?
Speaker 2: It took a good year for us to grow it in.
Speaker 2: We have an old driving range that has been closed
Speaker 2: down for eighteen years now and so we use that
Speaker 2: tea as our nursery and it has it's fully irrigated
Speaker 2: and it's all it's on sand too. It's a USB spectae,
Speaker 2: so it actually works out well.
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Speaker 1: Toro distributor to schedule a demo. And then you've been
Speaker 1: doing some fairway expansions too.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, we're almost complete. We have three more to do. Uh,
Speaker 2: we're just simplifying the lines, you know, basically how a
Speaker 2: gangmore would cut. We're taking out ron calls and bubbles
Speaker 2: or taking all the bubbles out. All that was contours
Speaker 2: around where the trees were, where the car paths are,
Speaker 2: bringing the bunkers back into the fairway and they're kind of
Speaker 2: abandoned into the rough. Basically, what we're doing is just
Speaker 2: scauping down the rough and turn around on that is
Speaker 2: you know a matter of a couple of weeks, so.
Speaker 1: You just have to cut it down. And then do
Speaker 1: you have to see there or anything on it?
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't see that at all. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: just scalp it down, you know, because our fairways are
Speaker 2: you know, a mismasha turf, their bank grass poet you know,
Speaker 2: you know a little bit of rye grass in there,
Speaker 2: and the rough's very similar.
Speaker 1: That's that's cool. It's a neat way to do it.
Speaker 1: It didn't overtime. And how how many years have you
Speaker 1: been at the fairway expansions to getting to where you're
Speaker 1: almost done?
Speaker 2: This will be the third year, so we'll complete the
Speaker 2: rest of them this year. There was the reason why
Speaker 2: we didn't finish them last year is because we had
Speaker 2: some drainage issues and the ones that we wanted to
Speaker 2: expand this year. So we're trying trying to button all
Speaker 2: that up.
Speaker 1: I imagine that you set forth all these plans and
Speaker 1: then you know, I have the same thing happened to
Speaker 1: me as like oh I'm right this morning, and then
Speaker 1: ten things pop up and I end up being like,
Speaker 1: oh there there goes the right time. And I imagine
Speaker 1: with project work for you, especially with all the things
Speaker 1: going on all the play things just pop up and stuff.
Speaker 3: It just doesn't get done all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to get better at that. I'm trying
Speaker 2: to you know, focus on one project at a time.
Speaker 2: The guys, they they kind of get annoyed. They're like,
Speaker 2: you just start too many projects. Let's just do one
Speaker 2: and get that one done. But you know you're not
Speaker 2: going to get them all done the amount of time
Speaker 2: you think you are.
Speaker 1: There's I've learned, like I'm a really good starter, Like
Speaker 1: you want to guess something started, I'm your guy, But
Speaker 1: finishing a big project, I might not be the best
Speaker 1: at that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that sometimes is my case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's because I'm already thinking about the next project.
Speaker 2: You know. That's that's the problem. Just too creative.
Speaker 3: How much how often do you get out and play?
Speaker 2: Well, we try to get out as a group, like
Speaker 2: a whole week, well not the whole crew, the crew
Speaker 2: that does GoF We try to get out, you know,
Speaker 2: two times three times a week. And if that's nine
Speaker 2: holes or eighteen, it doesn't matter, just how many we
Speaker 2: can get in after work.
Speaker 3: That's cool. It's got to be fun.
Speaker 1: You get and everybody gets to see what they're doing.
Speaker 1: Do you think it helps your staff?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: You kind of like know what's what they're what they're doing,
Speaker 1: and just help them.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Has anything ever come of you guys playing like an
Speaker 1: idea or anything.
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm sure there're plenty. Usually there's Miller lights involved though, so.
Speaker 3: Could could spurn more ideas.
Speaker 2: But it definitely does give the guys a sense of
Speaker 2: pride when they play. You know, they know what all
Speaker 2: the work they're doing. You know, they at least get
Speaker 2: to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: So with you guys, obviously you had the DuPont settlement,
Speaker 1: so you have money set aside and you're doing well. Like,
Speaker 1: how does when you want to do something, how do
Speaker 1: you how does it work with the municipality? How do
Speaker 1: how does the structure? I've always been curious of this.
Speaker 1: How does how do you work through the local government?
Speaker 2: Okay, well, it depends on the size of the project. Obviously,
Speaker 2: if it's a big project that's got to go in
Speaker 2: front of the Board of Commissioners and they have to approve,
Speaker 2: you know, the plans to move forward. And sometimes it's
Speaker 2: multiple meetings and there's only one meeting a month, so
Speaker 2: these things can drag out. If it's a smaller project,
Speaker 2: I'd go to my township manager who's fantastic, and he's
Speaker 2: usually just says, go ahead and do it, you know,
Speaker 2: as long as it's under a certain amount of capital.
Speaker 2: So then you know, they pretty much trust me, you know,
Speaker 2: my decision making when it comes to golf course improvements.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's a good thing for them.
Speaker 3: I think it's a good thing. You did a good
Speaker 3: job there.
Speaker 1: You know, when you get done with say the greens
Speaker 1: and the fairways, do you have like do you have
Speaker 1: like a ten year plan or a twenty year plan
Speaker 1: or you just kind of going year by year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty much year by year. I do want
Speaker 2: to start, you know, I want Tyler to come up
Speaker 2: with a master plan for us. I want to present
Speaker 2: that to the commissioners next. But we do have some
Speaker 2: other projects in the works before I can even present that,
Speaker 2: And one is we have we have some stream bank
Speaker 2: restorations going on currently that's going to take a couple
Speaker 2: more months. And then after that, the touchup manager and
Speaker 2: the Commissioners and I've been talking about a short course
Speaker 2: on the abandoned driving range. So that's going to be
Speaker 2: the next big project be cool.
Speaker 3: That'll be a lot of fun too. Huh.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's going to be awesome. You know. I brought
Speaker 2: that idea back to the commissioners, to the township manager.
Speaker 2: Actually I visited the Cradle down to Pinehurst and I
Speaker 2: honestly I had the most fun playing golf that I
Speaker 2: had in a long time. It's just such a fantastic experience.
Speaker 2: You can just have a good time. This of the
Speaker 2: music coming out of the rocks and you know, just
Speaker 2: one club at around it around the whole course.
Speaker 1: What a great thing to have for a township too,
Speaker 1: you know, fantastic great kids.
Speaker 3: Didn't do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah kids, uh, you know, anybody that is a little
Speaker 2: scared or nervous, and you know it hasn't been exposed
Speaker 2: to golf that much. I wouldn't want my first round
Speaker 2: of golf to be at Jefferson a golf course for
Speaker 2: one just I would quit. But this is an opportunity
Speaker 2: for young players, just anybody that's new to the game
Speaker 2: to come out, have a lot of fun with their friends,
Speaker 2: you know, and have a great, great time, great experience.
Speaker 2: It's not serious. You know, it doesn't cost you know,
Speaker 2: you're going to be it's not like you have to
Speaker 2: have all the equipment. Either we're going to have clubs
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 1: So have they come up with any you know, early
Speaker 1: ideas for pricing how it would work. Is it you know,
Speaker 1: kids free or anything like that, or you know, obviously
Speaker 1: you'll have clubs out there, are you still still in
Speaker 1: the works.
Speaker 2: Still in the works, But we definitely have discussed that
Speaker 2: and you know, there probably will be a family discount
Speaker 2: because we definitely want to be a family experience. You know,
Speaker 2: I got into the golf business because it was the
Speaker 2: pursuit of free golf for me. You know, it's just
Speaker 2: it's so expensive, you know. Yeah, So you know, when
Speaker 2: I was twelve years old, I started playing with my
Speaker 2: dad and a friend, a few friends and we would
Speaker 2: go to the local twelve hole course rolling turf up
Speaker 2: in Schwangsville and it was very similar. You know, it
Speaker 2: was eight dollars play all day. You know, it was
Speaker 2: just such a great experience. It was a great, great
Speaker 2: way to grow up off of that's and playing with
Speaker 2: my dad and my mom and all their friends. And
Speaker 2: that's what we want this to be like. You know,
Speaker 2: we don't want it to break the bank or anything.
Speaker 2: We want it to be you know, maybe forty dollars
Speaker 2: for the family to play.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's like one of the big
Speaker 1: things like affordable golf. I grew up at a course
Speaker 1: and I think for the entire year, my season pass
Speaker 1: was one hundred and ninety five dollars. You know, as
Speaker 1: a kid, I could play golf every day for one
Speaker 1: hundred and ninety five.
Speaker 3: Dollars and it's awesome.
Speaker 1: It made my you think about it from a parent's standpoint,
Speaker 1: like which you know, it's like, oh, for two hundred bucks,
Speaker 1: we can have something that occupies our child for you know,
Speaker 1: endless hours every day.
Speaker 2: Of the week.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yep, you and you meet really cool people on the
Speaker 2: golf course, and you and you create a network of friends.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So there's a proposed plan pinned to your guys, to
Speaker 1: Jeffersonville's Twitter account, which is pretty neat. It's the nine
Speaker 1: holes on seven acres and uh, you know the holes
Speaker 1: range from like basically one hundred yards and.
Speaker 2: In that's right, Yeah, I think the longest one was
Speaker 2: one hundred and eight yards and the shortest one is
Speaker 2: you know, under fifty yards, and all the all the
Speaker 2: it'll be bankrast t to greens, so you can practically
Speaker 2: put it off the tea right onto the green.
Speaker 3: Ideal for beginning or just fun you know, Oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can only imagine all the mini games that
Speaker 2: you can create.
Speaker 1: Is you have different use a different club every hole,
Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of fun stuff you can do
Speaker 1: with those. It seems like Jeffersonville, like your township in general,
Speaker 1: is just very committed to golf. Is there a lot
Speaker 1: of golfers involved with this in the city or or
Speaker 1: is it just where you know, you guys have run,
Speaker 1: you know, a very successful business and that's where the
Speaker 1: commitment comes from. Or you know what, what do you
Speaker 1: kind of point to where you know a lot of
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of townships and communities view
Speaker 1: the golf course almost as a burden sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know if there's a lot of
Speaker 2: golfers in the township. Most of our membership is outside
Speaker 2: of the township. We do have like a small annual
Speaker 2: pass holders, not of an annual passers, and most of
Speaker 2: those are outside of the township. But I do think
Speaker 2: even the non golfers are very proud of the golf course.
Speaker 2: It is the one one thing the township has that
Speaker 2: they can you know, really be proud of. Not just
Speaker 2: the one thing, but it is a big thing that
Speaker 2: they can be proud of. So I think that is
Speaker 2: the major that's the main commitment, and and you know,
Speaker 2: it's very successful.
Speaker 3: Everybody.
Speaker 1: I've I've got lists of courses that I'd love to see,
Speaker 1: you know, start to be you know, municipal courses that
Speaker 1: would start to invest back in and start to do
Speaker 1: small things. And I think You're course is a perfect
Speaker 1: example of continuing to improve, you know, year after a
Speaker 1: year and biting off little by little. If you were
Speaker 1: advising some you know, impassioned golfer who loves a municipal
Speaker 1: course that just isn't you know that maybe has fallen
Speaker 1: under decades of neglect and and how would you approach
Speaker 1: trying to you know, start to get some positive change
Speaker 1: at the at the golf course.
Speaker 2: I would probably hire an architect.
Speaker 1: To help say there's no budget, you got no.
Speaker 2: Connection, there's no budget, no budgetdget.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just I'm just a golfer. I'm a local golfer,
Speaker 1: and I'm and I want to see this golf course
Speaker 1: get better. What's the first what's the first few things
Speaker 1: that they that golfer should do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would definitely see the superintendent, maybe even come
Speaker 2: up with a plan. You can you can you can
Speaker 2: always go to a meeting, to a township meeting, and
Speaker 2: it's always open to public comment at a certain point.
Speaker 2: M h. Well, you know, I think that's what happened
Speaker 2: here originally in two thousand and one. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it was a commissioner or if it was a
Speaker 2: resident that pretty much brought it to the township's attention
Speaker 2: that this was a ross golf course and they didn't
Speaker 2: even understand what that was, and they did some digging
Speaker 2: and realize, hey, this is a big deal. Well maybe
Speaker 2: maybe just do some digging and see, you know, if
Speaker 2: there's any any historical value to the golf course too.
Speaker 2: You know, that's that's a big.
Speaker 1: Deal, Yeah, I imagine, because then you can get in
Speaker 1: with the you can always play the historical.
Speaker 2: Tag right exactly, which is you know, it.
Speaker 1: Helps you tied it to the history of the of
Speaker 1: the community.
Speaker 3: That's a good point.
Speaker 1: You know, everybody always goes straight to the golf aspect,
Speaker 1: but if you could find more historical antidotes beyond the
Speaker 1: golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and non golfers may embrace that even more than
Speaker 2: you know if you're just going on, I just want
Speaker 2: to spend money on the golf course, you know. But
Speaker 2: if you say it's has historic value, then as non
Speaker 2: golfers may you know, may hold out of some value
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 1: So, uh, when when you guys expected to expecting golf
Speaker 1: to come back.
Speaker 2: Well, the governor just opened some construction on May eighth,
Speaker 2: so we're hoping it's middle of May. We really don't
Speaker 2: want to sing to bleed into June, but I guess
Speaker 2: we just got to go with the flower at the
Speaker 2: mercy of the governor.
Speaker 1: In terms of just like an impact it's had on
Speaker 1: on Jeffersonville as a as a business, Like what what
Speaker 1: would you say, say you go into mid mid May,
Speaker 1: what kind of loss and rounds would that be from
Speaker 1: last year's forty two thousand.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be close to ten thousand rounds lost? Crazy, Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's uh, it's gonna hurt.
Speaker 1: Hey, it's gonna hurt so many courses that you know,
Speaker 1: we're on.
Speaker 3: The edge. You know, that's gonna be a sad thing.
Speaker 2: That's that's the scary part. But you hate to see
Speaker 2: any anybody lose their job or golf course close up
Speaker 2: because you know, it's just going to be a housing
Speaker 2: development probably, you know, yeah, we don't really need more
Speaker 2: of those. Maybe we do.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: A housing development might not be the best best thing
Speaker 1: right after this.
Speaker 2: No, that's true.
Speaker 1: What what are You're a big golfer? What are your
Speaker 1: other favorite courses of the area to play?
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. My favorite course that I've played, Uh, it's
Speaker 2: probably Plainfield, New Jersey.
Speaker 3: Another rock that's.
Speaker 2: A fantastic golf course, Like the closest the golf course
Speaker 2: is closest to me. My favorites would be Golf Mills
Speaker 2: another Ross. I played the Cricket Club before the renovations
Speaker 2: and it was fantastic. I can't even imagine what it's
Speaker 2: like now. Oh God. One public golf courses, uh, I
Speaker 2: love Uh. I think Turtle Creek is a great golf course.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to promote any more public of course. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you when do you go see do you do
Speaker 1: you ever pick up anything when you say, like when
Speaker 1: you when you play played Plainfield? Is it was there
Speaker 1: anything that stood out that you know, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, that's kind of like something we have here
Speaker 1: being both ross courses.
Speaker 2: Definitely can see the similarities in the bunkering. Uh that
Speaker 2: Ron did and I did add some. I got inspired
Speaker 2: by some of their short grass areas around the greens,
Speaker 2: so I started to do that also, similarities definitely, greens
Speaker 2: complexes even ours are on like a smaller scale though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the with the short grass around the greens,
Speaker 1: is it does that? How did that change from your
Speaker 1: maintenance standpoint?
Speaker 3: Was it?
Speaker 1: Was it a lot of work added or is it
Speaker 1: just easy because you're already bow in the fairways?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not really that. It doesn't really add much
Speaker 2: more work for us. Maybe a little bit more with spraying,
Speaker 2: but it's not that big of a deal. We're able
Speaker 2: to get that, get through that just as fast as
Speaker 2: we were before.
Speaker 1: All right, fun question before before we get you out
Speaker 1: of here, what what's the what's your pet peep? What
Speaker 1: was it that pet peeve? But what did you what
Speaker 1: would you wish that every golfer understood about, uh, you know, maintenance,
Speaker 1: say the morning, hm, you know my.
Speaker 2: Biggest okay pet peeve or whatever? Is Well, we just
Speaker 2: get done raking bunkers. The guy goes in, blasts a
Speaker 2: shot out of it and just walks right up the
Speaker 2: face and doesn't even rake the bunker, plus walks up
Speaker 2: the face of the of the bunker. Complex. That drives
Speaker 2: me crazy this is that I.
Speaker 3: Can see how that bugs you.
Speaker 2: I mean, we do have a limited crew. We have
Speaker 2: ninety two sandtraps, so it's not like it's you know,
Speaker 2: we do it every day. At least you rake break
Speaker 2: the bunker and and think about the guy behind you,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: So it was funny.
Speaker 1: I was playing last fall and I hid it in
Speaker 1: a bunker and some guy was playing another hole. He
Speaker 1: walked all the way into the bunker, picked my ball up,
Speaker 1: and walked all the way out, didn't rake it at all.
Speaker 1: And and I, you know, I see him across on
Speaker 1: the other hole and I'm like, hey, I think he
Speaker 1: picked up my ball and and he's like oh, and
Speaker 1: I'm like it's you know, whatever it was, and he
Speaker 1: goes and I go, also, you know, you forgot to
Speaker 1: rake the bunker. That's the bigger problem. Yeah, right, And
Speaker 1: he looked at me like I was like had three heads.
Speaker 1: But that was the thing that actually bunked me more
Speaker 1: than the guy picking up my ball.
Speaker 2: I know, man, there's no etiquette with some people.
Speaker 1: The worst was he walked in where he walked in,
Speaker 1: there's a bunker right next to or a rake right
Speaker 1: next to him.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm half time to the pull in the bunker.
Speaker 2: Rakes Nobody uses them.
Speaker 1: I mean some some would say that, you know, your
Speaker 1: bunkers would be better they You know, there's a famous
Speaker 1: CV McDonald quote that you rather have a thousand elephants
Speaker 1: run around in a bunker than than have it perfectly groomed.
Speaker 2: That's true, that's true. Learn more.
Speaker 1: It's amazing though, like the for the retail golfer, bunker
Speaker 1: maintenance is such a such a like important thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's probably our biggest complaint here bunkers. And
Speaker 2: the funny thing is is if you put sand in
Speaker 2: the bunker, they say there's too much sand. If you
Speaker 2: don't have enough sand in the bunker, there's not enough sand.
Speaker 2: There's there's no happy medium with anybody. I think it's
Speaker 2: just that they just don't know how to hit the
Speaker 2: ball out of the bunker, so they have to blame
Speaker 2: it on something.
Speaker 1: Well, naturally, that's golfers. Never that's never their fault.
Speaker 2: You know, funny story. I this is a while back,
Speaker 2: probably ten years ago. We didn't have a roller, and
Speaker 2: this member would always come up to me and say, hey,
Speaker 2: you need to roll. These greens are a little bumpy.
Speaker 2: I said, well, we don't have a roller. He's like, okay,
Speaker 2: I understand. So I borrow. I demoed a roller off
Speaker 2: of a local distributor and I just parked it next
Speaker 2: to the green. I was getting ready to go out
Speaker 2: and roll. This guy gets off the green against Mandy.
Speaker 2: Greens are great. I see you roll them. Didn't even
Speaker 2: roll themble. Oh man.
Speaker 3: That that sums up golf in so many ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I blamed the superintendent too. When I
Speaker 2: go out and play my course, it's my fault.
Speaker 1: I shot ninety two exactly, is Sally is somebody else's fault.
Speaker 1: That's the key to happiness and golf. It's ever your fault.
Speaker 1: You can't get mad.
Speaker 2: Or I blame it on the guy. It's with me
Speaker 2: to changed cups that day.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's another one. Would you have a bad
Speaker 2: night last night?
Speaker 1: List of most common it would be like, yeah, they
Speaker 1: cut the cup wrong. I looked out so many putts
Speaker 1: because they cut the cut the cups wrong, bunker sand,
Speaker 1: you know, bumpy green.
Speaker 2: I was. I was actually told last year the fairways
Speaker 2: are too tight. They're too tight. I can't hit off them.
Speaker 2: You gotta raise them up.
Speaker 3: It's insane.
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, whatever.
Speaker 1: So people can find you on social media.
Speaker 2: You're on Twitter, I'm on Twitter. I don't I'm not
Speaker 2: very active on Twitter, but more so on Instagram.
Speaker 3: Oh, I gotta follow you on Instagram.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do post some pictures on Instagram.
Speaker 3: What's your handle?
Speaker 2: Uh, it's shilling two p A all.
Speaker 1: Right, same as your same as your your Twitter yep.
Speaker 1: And then uh, and then they can find you at
Speaker 1: the at the course.
Speaker 3: You know you're there all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always here. You know that. Some of my
Speaker 2: wife thinks.
Speaker 1: Anybody looking for good uh good golf in Philadelphia Jeffersonville
Speaker 1: should be right at the top of the list.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for that. Of course, I'm enjoyed. I
Speaker 2: haven't gotten tired of it yet. I've been here twenty years.
Speaker 1: It's it's cool, and it's I love you know, following
Speaker 1: you guys because you it's so neat to see the
Speaker 1: work keep going and you know, you see all all
Speaker 1: the all the greens, the expansions. It's just neat to
Speaker 1: see you guys continue to invest in the in the product.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it makes it fun for us too. I
Speaker 2: mean it would be pretty boring and falls we did
Speaker 2: was cut grass day.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Projects projects are like the spice of the spice for us.
Speaker 3: It's got to be great for your crew.
Speaker 2: They love it, you know, they hate maintaining some of
Speaker 2: these bunkers and Tyler Tyler put together, but they are
Speaker 2: awesome to look at.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you get a drone or these Tyler's pictures?
Speaker 2: I got, I have a drone. You inspired me for
Speaker 2: the drun pictures.
Speaker 3: You got some good with the light.
Speaker 2: That's just that's just a little spark.
Speaker 1: It's perfect. You're yeah, you're understanding. How Once you understand
Speaker 1: the light, then that's you know, you're gonna take amazing pictures. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's uh, that's cool. It's uh. But we'll talk soon.
Speaker 3: I can't. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: The next time I'm out in Philly, I'll come by
Speaker 1: and see you.
Speaker 2: Well, next time you come out, make sure you know
Speaker 2: we don't have three inches of rain and on us.
Speaker 2: You were here for the worst day possible.
Speaker 3: That the whole week.
Speaker 2: It was unbelievable.
Speaker 3: Every single day it rained.
Speaker 2: That's like the new normally norm here though it rains
Speaker 2: every other day.
Speaker 3: It's strange we didn't.
Speaker 2: We got no snow this year, just all rain.
Speaker 3: Did you do you get a lot of play in
Speaker 3: the winter, because yeah, we do.
Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, if it's if the weather's decent, I mean
Speaker 2: we get people, We get people out here. When it's
Speaker 2: below thirty, it's crazy. I mean it's got to be
Speaker 2: like hitting into an ice cube.
Speaker 1: If there's no wind, you can play.
Speaker 2: You gotta play the you gotta play the ground game.
Speaker 2: Though the ball hits the green, it bounces twenty feet
Speaker 2: in the air.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Rich, I appreciate the time, and uh
Speaker 1: look forward to seeing you soon.
Speaker 3: An Spini concert another