WEBVTT - Radio Better Offline: Brian Koppelman, Cherlynn Low & Mike Drucker 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:03.960 A media. 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.200 Your scientists have yet to discover how neural networks create 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.760 self consciousness, let alone how the human brain processes two 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.200 dimensional retinal images into three dimensional phenomenon known as perception. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:17.880 Yet you, somehow brazen lye declare seeing is believing. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:18.919 Yes, I do. 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.520 I'm at Zitron. This is better offline. I'm your host, 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.400 by our merchandise. Go to my newsletter. Where's your ed 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:36.920 dot app? 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:37.960 Anyway? Fuck all that. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.680 Brian Kopperman is joining us here in the studio. He's 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.320 the incredible writer, producer, and he's in the Bear a Bear. 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.800 He's a real deal actor. He's also the co creator, 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.760 showrunner and executive producer of Showtimes, Billions and super pumped 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:52.559 the battle for Uber. Brian, thank you so much for 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:53.080 joining us. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:53.880 Thrilled to be here with you. 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.240 Man. We've of course got Mike drug At, the wonderful comedian. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:57.560 And of course you have a book, don't you. 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.400 Mike, Yes, sir, it's called Good Game, No Rematch. Get 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.840 out embarrassing myself with video games throughout my entire. 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.199 Life, wonderful, I'll be embarrassing myself with tech on this show. 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.600 Sherlyn Lowe as well, joining us from mang gotcha hate 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:09.240 doing shell. 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.319 I am about it down a protein shake hopefully. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.920 Yes, Yeah, we're just talking about the Ninja Creamy and 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:16.399 all the various slops. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.040 They're great Ninja Creamy. I'll tell you there's no endorsement 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:21.560 out there for any of us. They don't need it 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.920 because people just get these things and they immediately go 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.880 to tiktokh because they want to share how good they are. Yeah, 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.720 they're honestly, they're so good. That's why I have full 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:32.039 indorse full endorsement. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:33.679 This is the Ninja Creamy show. 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.080 Now I'm going to get what's great about this is 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.960 literally any time I mention any product, I will get 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.000 an email from someone being like, here's a post from 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:42.840 two thousand and three from the CEO in which case 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:43.440 they shot the door. 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.880 It's like some insane ed how dare you bring up? 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.440 I'm like, I don't know everything. Please tell me. 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.200 Well, Fair Lives bottles have a lot of Dalley's in them, 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:53.919 so you know that's our that's our thing today. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.960 Yeah, I just eat like too much yoga. So I 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.800 want to actually start with a really good thing. So, Mike, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:00.640 you wrote a really great piece of the Gamer I 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.040 think they went out, Yeah, yeah, very recently is called 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.240 I'm starting to worry this industry has no respect for 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:06.080 the people who work in it. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:07.600 Well, you walk us through. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.000 The article, because I think it's a good subject. 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:10.560 Matsa sure well. 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.440 As listeners may or may not know, Microsoft recently laid 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:16.640 off about nine thousand people, most of which were in 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.400 their gaming department. Simultaneously, they were claiming that their gaming 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.799 department's quite profitable and they're making a ton of money 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:24.359 and everything's going well. 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.120 I don't know if that's actually. 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.000 True, but they are saying that, And they've kind of 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:30.760 also said that a lot of the money that they 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.200 were paying these employees isn't isn't about losses, it's that 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.760 they want to move this money into AI development. 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.119 Did they say that, Yeah, yeah, that's horrifying. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.399 Yeah, it's kind of im I mean they didn't say 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.040 that word for word, but it was very implied that 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.519 the budget was you know, they're more focused. That was 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:48.120 kind of the language. The language was like, you know, 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.120 as we restructure, we're more focused on AI going forwards. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.000 It's just so ironic, is like video games is one 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:57.080 of the first real exposures to AI for most people, yeah, 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:58.400 I remember when Fear came out. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.520 He won't remember fit. Yeah, it was one of the first, 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:01.079 one of the first. 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.240 It was the first time a guy would like shove 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.400 his head over and look around before just jumping up 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:06.000 and getting shot. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:06.800 Yeah. 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.720 It's just the reason this really spoke to me, other 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.280 than in fact it's very well written, is the I 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.120 feel like this is the central problem with a lot 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.840 of tech, entertainment everything right now, where it's like the 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.000 people at talk and you make this. 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:18.880 Point well in the article. 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.800 Yeah, the industry is the problem because the industry is 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.400 not being piloted by the people creating right exactly. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.520 I mean, you know, and it's a problem that also 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.720 extends to the you know, Hollywood, which I also work in. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.040 Because I'm famous. No, that's not true at all. 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.119 But it's this problem that, like, you know, a lot 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.200 of the decision makers are not as close to the 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:41.760 product as they used to be. Yeah, I mean, I 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:43.360 mean you could even say the same same for things 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.880 like Boeing, where you know, you don't have engineers running 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.160 the department anymore. You have business people who've been brought 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.320 in because they're good at checking well track alliance exactly exactly, 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.560 and you know, these people are far away from the product, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.520 they're far away from the development of it, so they 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.200 see these you know, workers as numbers on a spreadsheet. 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.480 And for better or worse, video game development is a 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.520 very long process. It takes a lot of time, it 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:05.280 takes a lot of money. 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.600 It's getting longer. It's getting longer, yeah, horizon as well. 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.440 And so it's you know, very easy for these companies 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.960 that are looking for a short term you know, next 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.120 financial quarter. 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:15.640 Boost to go. 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.080 We fired all these people and this product wasn't going 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:19.960 to come out for two years, so it really doesn't matter. 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.440 And that's the thing with Microsofts well they've that's that 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.040 they've laid fifteen thousand people this year as well. Nuts 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.960 and it is the money really even going an It's 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.839 just so confusing. But you're seeing everyone with Hollywood. There 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.320 was the Acme versus Coyote thing. Yeah, sorry, Coyote vusus 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.800 Acme thing where they just like multhbuled it releasing it 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.080 happily mouth bolded movie. Yeah, to save on taxes. I 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:42.720 feel like that shouldn't be a loophole. 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.240 I hate that loophole. 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.000 I hate the idea of that loophole. I mean, it 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.919 almost reminds me of that loophole from and Brian. You 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:51.560 could maybe correct me on this, but remember like in 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.919 the nineties they made a Fantastic Four film they weren't 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.640 going to release just so they could maintain rights for it, 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:58.880 because the rights for it were you have to make 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:00.760 a movie to keep the rights, you don't have to 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:01.280 release it. 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.840 I don't remember that exactly though, now that you say it, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.840 it rings a bell, but I don't have particulars on it. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:14.320 But I think what you're talking about really the answer. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.400 I agree completely as you diagnose it with how depressing 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.520 it is. But to me, these things feel like a 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:26.000 system's response, like complexity theory and system well, they're like 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.440 systems responses to what's happening in the world, as opposed 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.000 to feeling like because I think it's easier for us 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:37.080 to look at the human being and go that motherfucker, 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.840 and that may be a motherfucker. But another possible answer 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:46.480 is that from a far remove, like something's happening right, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:51.960 and when this thing is happening, it gets into quantum theory. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:58.920 But it is a complexity system's response to this giant 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:05.840 change of artificial intelligence, having certain capabilities and all of this. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.160 You can look at all of it, and I mean, 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.120 we've seen people who had one set of beliefs for 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:14.600 so long and on the record in your industry, completely 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.480 switch and they may think that's an autonomous decision they're making. 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.359 But I found a little bit of solace by reading 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:25.000 about complexity theory because that for me, offers a potentially 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:30.320 more not hopeful, but sort of a more complete understand. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.760 You're saying, like a systemic response to conditions. Because I 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.360 don't know about the AI capability side, but the existence 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.719 of capabilities potentially being there makes sense. In the they're 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:40.840 all trying to reconfigure for a future they don't know 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.520 if it's actually there. The general AI doesn't seem to 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.640 do it, but the potential of that, the idea of it, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.440 is motivating them so much. Microsoft of all people as well, 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:51.919 should know how little money's actually being made from this, 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:53.800 considering out the thirty. 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:57.400 So that's it, Yes, But executives, honestly, because I've studied 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.800 these people so much and written about them much, and 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:02.960 I understand how venal they are and how short term 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:08.680 they think at times. But they're also I think looking 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:13.240 at data that we don't have very often, and they're 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:18.040 trying to forecast out a long time. 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.480 Why do you think they have that we don't have though, 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.160 because like with Microsoft for example, and I have probably 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.400 studied such in the DELLA too much at this point. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.920 I really I learned too much about the growth mindset 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.880 and Karlyn Dweck and all of that nonsense. But the data, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.960 if the data is there, they're acting very peculiar about 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.920 the data because they're only making thirteen billion dollars this 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.480 year from AI. Ten billion is a ur ur I 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.200 was from open Ai, burning giraffes and whatever they put 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.840 into the machine for chat GPT. But it's it feels 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.480 almost like they are reacting to what they hope will 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.840 happen or what may happen. I'm just trying to lad 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:55.440 it might just. 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.840 Be when when everyone reacts to quarterly like the problem 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.960 our business, the entertainment. The thing is that these people 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.120 are responding to quarterly earnings calls that they have to make, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.360 and maybe the data isn't about the long term possible, 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.520 maybe the data is literally that we don't know that 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:14.320 they're looking at is their little cohort of people and 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.120 the exact moment they can exercise which kinds of options, 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.360 some of which they have to declare and maybe some 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.440 of which they are somehow able to flip on a 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:23.440 different market. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.640 What Anthropic basically Amazon did with Anthropic, they flip their 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:28.600 investment into a certain kind of thing they could tax 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:28.880 the dug. 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.960 I mean, there's no doubt that there's heartlessness, But I 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.080 just because Druckers here, I just want to say, you know, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.760 even in the most depressing times or in moments where 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:45.680 the technology the platform seems brutal, people's humanity can transcend it. 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.880 And I remember in some dark days of Twitter, Drucker 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.439 was and it was really amazing man. And I remember, 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:53.600 you know, you know, I don't know each other well, 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.280 but we've known each other a long wi time, like 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:59.760 twenty years, and yeah, it's true. And I remember that 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:01.920 they're where many nights you were like not sleeping that well, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.160 sleeping at the wrong time, yeah, and like sleeping during 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.160 the day up at night. But keep I remember him 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:13.079 really like very vulnerably talking about sadness and depression and 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:20.200 getting people to entrust sharing, and him actively trying to 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.280 like save people in a place where like where people 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.680 were so callous almost by profession on there by like 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:29.560 everything they wanted to do that right, Well, all everyone 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.400 was at home playing grand theft Auto, which could you 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:32.920 guys fix that and get the next one out? But 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.680 everyone's at home playing grand theft Auto, uh, and being callous. 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.240 And he was like literally going, let me explain depression 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:41.520 to you and what you can do and what the 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.840 resources are and why you shouldn't kill yourself, and which 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:46.840 I think is great. Of course you would lead the 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.360 empathy on this too and look at these assholes and 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.360 think about all the engineers, and it's the right way 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.840 to process it. I just think often it's not a binary. 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.240 No, and that makes sense. And that's the thing I've 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.360 been saying like a lot about the show is I'm 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.240 talking about the pigs in the arsholes and the skumbags 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:03.719 and all the different names and the voices I. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:04.360 Do for them. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.240 But it's also about the fact that there is like 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.280 I'm pissed off case of Kagawa. 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:11.240 Friend of the show's said this to him a lot. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:15.280 It's I'm broken hearted dramatic because things like what Mike did. 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:16.680 Actually one of the reasons every day and. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:18.599 Gadget as well, is it's like Yeah, there are a 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:20.880 lot of these financial horrors in there, but there's fun, 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.240 dorky shit online. Still, there's still one Like most of 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.840 my friends are from the internet, you know. It's like 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:31.800 I'm like the drill quiet crying. It's like being on 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.119 Like it's like like everything I got is through emails. 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:36.840 But I still think there is a lot. 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.040 Of joy in this And I think the central thing 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.880 about your article now is just like beneath this capitalism 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.199 crush is actually some really like wonderful things being built. 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.280 There are still wonderful games being built. Yeah, there's like 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.960 an entire economy on Minecraft, for better or for worse 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.480 about selling mods and stuff. There are people on roadblocks 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.320 other problems with roadblocks obviously, who are like building games 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.240 in there and selling them. There's still some cool shit 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:03.560 happening in tech, just being in with because every three 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:05.559 months someone gets upset at them. 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:07.240 Or finds a new way to make money off it, 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:09.760 which you have to you know, shove into a new category, 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:10.560 but the new thing. 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.800 To chase, right that's where it is right now. I 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.560 think that what you were talking about, the like macro 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.520 picture of everyone sort of having that reaction, and I 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.600 think we will course correct in time. I think we're 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.200 right now at that stage in history where it's not 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.079 as Cotton dried to me as the NFT crypto sort 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.840 of bubble, where like it was clearly about criminals. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.439 Yeah, it was walking people. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.320 Over, knowing right, And I'd argue that on some level 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.600 these are criminals. There are criminals that play in this 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.560 scenario right now. I will say that with what Mike 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.240 was writing about in your article, the Microsoft thing was 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.120 all the more like I think when my team saw 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.880 the news last week, my instant reaction was, didn't they 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.760 just ratify a union contract? Was like their first ever 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:53.920 in the US? Too like to be saying that on 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.440 one hand, we really care about workers rights and really 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.440 want to protect workers, and the other you're like, and 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.079 those are their quality people, right And now we're like, oh, 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.680 game developers, man, nine thousand of you can go because 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.440 AI n PC's are all the rage right now and 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.360 they really make a lot of sense. A m PCs 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.720 never said a bad thing, never said anything. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.080 That was demo last year? 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:14.640 Was it this year? 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:15.360 I can't remember. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.480 They've done too and video wheels out at demo would 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.320 be like the generative AI NPC's here and within one 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.280 day someone has made it says layah or like it's 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.319 just said something in spane. Microsoft tay was the twenty 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.520 sixteen AI bought that learned from the Internet to be racist, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.760 like one of a proto Mecha Hitler situation. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:39.160 Oh that was Grock Yeah taal that the Microsoft bathroom 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.280 Yeah from twelve or something. 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:42.680 I forgot about that. 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:44.960 But the thing is, back to Brand's point is that 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.680 this keeps happening and then we keep course correcting back 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.360 like it feels like there is a system's response and 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.920 Ed I think you're looking for the joy. I wouldn't 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:58.319 use the word intervening or interfering. I would say it's noise. 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.680 And the way for companies and people existing in this 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.520 industry to deal with that is to focus on what 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.760 you think is good. I find the irony in saying that, 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:08.840 which I think these tech bros that you're referring to, Brian, 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.760 they're also trying to focus on what they think it's good, 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.559 so they're cutting out noise from their perspective. And I 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.400 don't know it's that movie that was just released featuring 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.480 those four dudes in the Mountain Lodge. 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.920 Oh not out Head Mountain. 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.280 Mountain Head, mountain Head. Yes, so it feels like that. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.160 It feels like everyone's got their little bubble, which is 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:31.080 also at the same time created maybe and supported by tech. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.959 And if we continue to operate in silos, I don't know. 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:34.679 I feel like if we. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.480 Only if we only think of those and often they 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.040 are men in those roles. They're not all, but often 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.600 they are. If you think of some of those you said, bros. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.680 But if we only reduce them to those guys running 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:52.240 around trying to kill someone in a song where I 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.680 think in a way it allows in a way, it 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.400 allows us to like not worry about them because we 0:13:58.400 --> 0:13:58.840 can do them. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:13:59.960 Moll right, that's fair. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.040 Some of them are smarter, like just raw synthesizing power. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.120 Some of those people, not all of them, they're smarter 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.640 than everyone in this building combined, couple of them. And 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:10.920 I'm not saying that that makes them good or anything 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.120 in any way good or in any way good for now, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.040 because even if you say, like I agree with you 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.520 that some of them may believe that they're doing this, 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.040 that they're doing good, right, But if they're thinking in 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.000 a thousand year chunks, that's really bad for You've all 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:27.880 said this and you've all I think is amazing. And 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.720 he said, well, the problem is historians like me. He goes, 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.440 you may look at it now. He was on a podcast. 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.040 He said, you may look at it now and say, 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:35.680 but those things worked out. Okay, look where we are. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.080 But as a historian, I have to look at the 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.960 cost of human life. Yes, that happened for all the intervals, 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.440 all the little intervals to get from there to here. 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.000 And that's really what you guys are just talking about. Rightly, 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.400 so is all the you know, the devastation in the way. 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.360 But but can I just because you might might be 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.880 so jaded, but do you not think AI is like 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:57.160 mind bogglingly great? 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:57.680 It's nice. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:00.480 I can see the valance. I think it's like far 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:01.280 off you. 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.600 Don't wait, you really I think it's like the single 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.360 I think it's why the single greatest invention in my life. 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.520 What is what is your favorite thing that has done? 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.680 I think the ability to have super high level conversations 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:17.880 about really esoteric about systems theory, right, you know it's 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.320 correct in them? Well you can, well, you have to 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:21.600 do a bit of work. 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.080 I don't want to talk to something that I have 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.160 to verify constantly I talk to people. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.480 Well, you have to do that with people to some extent. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.480 You can't trust everything you feel about. 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.080 The automobile or is the horse drawn carriage still your thing? 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.000 No, I'm just saying, no, I'm wondering what the point is. 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.600 It looks very uneasy, right, I mean the point? 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:40.800 No, I just have jokes in my head. 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.320 No, I'm well, because I. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.480 Think you can decry the industry and the way people 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.120 are using it. And I guarante I'm pretty sure I 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.280 was reading Alazer you had Kowski before anyone in this room. 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.080 I mean, how to actually change your mind as a 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.200 book that I was obsessed to give it Christmas gifts. 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:56.360 I can't take your ds. 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:58.960 I just it's you gotta take him serious, isn't. I 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:00.800 mean you have to take one to take that guy's 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.160 brain seriously. He think everything you guys are worried about 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.040 he called out fifteen years ago in detail. 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.880 Okay, I mean, like, here's the thing. The automobile is 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:11.800 not a comparison because we knew who had to go forward, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:13.720 side side and everything like that, Like we had an 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:16.240 actual use case for that with generative AI. The way 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.240 that these conversations happen and large language models can be 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.000 conversing with documents. It's one of the only use cases 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.640 that is actually remotely useful because you can actually verify 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.119 based on the parts of the document. Having a conversation 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.720 with one of these. Fine, it's a thing. I'm not 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.360 amazed by it because there have been chatbots doing this 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.560 with KMS since like what thirteen, twenty fourteen. 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.240 And the Eliza effect goes back to the sixties. 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.440 Yeah, and Eliza even then, there's a Karen Howe's Empire 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:42.720 of Ai is a great thing about Eliza. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.360 What the creator was just like, why is everyone so 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:46.760 fucking impressed? But it's just like, really, just like, what 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:47.440 the fuck is this? 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.040 I think what it is is. I am just not 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.800 that impressed by it. Based on the larger discussion. Everyone 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.320 acts like this as the fucking future, and it just 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.960 feels like a growth of the past. Chat GPT has 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.680 become for better or for worst is what Google could 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.199 have potentially been. It's insane the attention. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:07.680 I agree with you, but like, okay, I got a 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.760 tick bite. Okay, and you can literally the second you 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.679 get a tick bite, everybody says antibiotics you gotta go. 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.520 If you can't find the thing. I got a picture. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.400 I put it on there. The AI was immediately able 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.440 to say, yes, I could verify it after because I called, 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:25.560 I was able to say, this is the kind of 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.360 ticket is, this is the area you're in, this kind 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.800 of tick. You don't need antibiotics. You're not gonna get 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.560 lyme disease. Here's why sent it to my doctor who 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:36.679 that it's feedback and they agreed they'll be harder to 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:36.879 do it. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.919 Why didn't you send it to your doctor before you, Austin, Well. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.240 He doesn't. His job isn't too like identify what ticket is. 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.359 Oh, oh, sorry, I misunderstood what you said. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.159 Yeah, I want more clarity on the doctor thing. I 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.080 raised my hand as you were talking because I'm like, 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.199 did you trust the chat GPT answer and leave it 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:52.520 at that? 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:52.800