WEBVTT - A Royal Birkdale Deep Dive 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.160 The pros love Royal Birkdale Golf Club, the upcoming site 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:07.680 of the Open Championship, but do we love it. That's 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.880 what I'm talking about today with my colleague Joseph Lmania. 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm Garrett Morrison and this is Designing Golf. Joseph Almania 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:27.320 is here. Joseph is a writer for Friday Golf, focusing 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.720 mostly on the professional game and the courses where high 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.000 level tournaments are played. And you, Joseph just got back 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.280 from a visit to Royal Birkdale. How was your trip. 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.640 It was a great trip, Garrett. Yeah, I played Royal 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:46.639 Birkdale and Royallytham and St Anne's two very different golf courses, 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.159 but extremely useful to have that context about Brickdale in 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.360 advance of this Open Championship. So excited to talk about it. 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.240 Love talking golf courses with you, So eager to get 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:56.639 into it. 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.240 Yes, I love talking golf courses with you as well. 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.880 Always interesting stuff comes up. Yeah, very cool trip that 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.800 you went on to see a couple of courses that 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.640 are that are hosting Open Championships in the future, in 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.880 Royal Brickdale obviously next week, and then Royal Lithm and 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.000 Saint Anne I believe on the on the schedule for 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:20.280 twenty twenty eight or nine. 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:22.560 Twenty eight, and also the Women's Open is there at 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:23.280 the end of this month. 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.560 That's right, Yeah, okay, cool places. So we're talking about 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:31.880 Royal Brickdale today, going into detail about the golf course 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.959 and what your impressions of it are. I have some 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.280 of my own impressions, but those are just based on 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.080 seeing the golf course from afar. I've actually never been there, 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.440 so I'm very curious to get your kind of on 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:51.160 the ground details about it. Now, before we dive into 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.400 the elements of the course itself, I want to go 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.080 through a little bit of history. This is something that 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.280 I can offer in this podcast is some historical context. 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:07.960 So Royal Birkdale is in the coastal town of Southport 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:13.680 in the county of Merseyside. It's part of a trio 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:21.400 of open ROTA courses on the kind of Merseyside Lancashire coast. 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:26.760 Royal Liverpool is an hour south and Royal Livem and 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:32.919 Saint Anne's is just across the Ribel Estuary to the north. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.120 It takes about an hour to drive between the two courses. 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.480 I believe but it's only nine miles as the crow flies, 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.240 so it is in a kind of series of very 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.639 well known golf courses on this one stretch of coastline 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:55.520 in England. Birkdale Golf Club was founded in eighteen eighty nine, 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.960 originally a nine hole golf course, and then in eighteen 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.680 ninety seven the club moved to its current location in 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.680 the sand dunes just south of the city of Southport. 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.320 So the original course in this location was designed by 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.400 George Lowe, who was the professional at Royal Limb and 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.840 Saint Anne's. As far as I can tell, it was 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:23.160 a well regarded but not hugely well regarded golf course. 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.760 In Bernard Darwin's book Golf Courses of the British Isles, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.200 he mentions it just once and kind of mentions it 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.960 in passing, you know, as part of a list of 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.600 courses that would be worth talking about on this coastline, 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.800 but he doesn't say anything else about it. And obviously 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:44.560 that version of Birkedale never hosted the Open Championship, so 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.840 clearly it was overshadowed in a sense by you know, 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.080 Hoylake to the south and Lithm to the north. So 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:57.080 we go forward to nineteen thirty two and Royal Birkdale 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.960 decided to completely redesign golf course. They brought in the 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:06.520 architects fred G. Hawtree and J. H. Taylor to do 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:11.000 the work and what they produced is essentially today's version 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.600 of the golf course with a lot of alterations, you know, 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.920 the usual amount of alterations that happened at Open Championship courses. 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.599 But this is kind of their golf course. So who 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.159 were Fred G. Hawtree and JH. Taylor? These are not, 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.159 you know, maybe the best known names in golf architecture anymore. 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.320 We can start with Taylor. John Henry Taylor was a 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.839 very well known professional golfer. He was a member of 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:43.039 the Great Triumvirate alongside James Braid and Harry Varden. This 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.640 was a trio of British professional golfers who really dominated 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.599 the game around the turn of the twentieth century and 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.600 played a big role in popularizing the game in England 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.640 as well as the US, where where they kind of 0:04:55.640 --> 0:05:00.200 took trips and spread the gospel of golf. Taylor won 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.440 the Open Championship five times and went on to be 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.520 a very significant golf architect as well. Probably his best 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:12.520 preserved original design is Royal mid Surrey golf Club near London. 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.840 Very interesting and kind of curious course. It has a 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:20.039 kind of artificial appearance that in some ways has come 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.880 back into fashion these days. He also wrote a fair 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:28.200 amount about golf course design. Bob Crosby, friend of the program, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.839 who has been on designing golf a number of times, 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:36.000 has done research on Taylor, and Bob characterizes him as 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:40.880 mostly an advocate of what we would now call penal design. 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.640 So Taylor often expressed a belief that hazards should be 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:49.080 placed to punish poor shots, you know, poor strikes of 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.920 the ball, rather than serving kind of a more complex 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:56.000 strategic purpose. He liked cross bunkers and once wrote an 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.159 article lamenting that cross bunkers had fallen out of fashion. 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.240 And behind these positions I think was Taylor's conviction that 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.920 the purpose of golf architecture was to provide a fair 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.640 playing field for competition. Fairness was a big deal to 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.919 him and understandable that he would take that position given 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.400 his background as a professional, competitive professional golfer. Now, all 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:24.000 of that said, I don't know how much input Taylor 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.599 had at Royal Birkdale. My impression is that the new 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.200 course at Birkdale that was installed in nineteen thirty two 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.480 was mostly the work of his partner, Frederick George Haughtrey. 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:40.760 Fred G. Haughtrey Hattrey was not known as a competitive golfer. 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.400 He was very much a professional golf architect. Founded his 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.919 own firm in nineteen twelve, started working with Taylor in 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:53.200 nineteen twenty two, and Hawtrey had what I'd characterize as 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:57.159 a very practical, utilitarian approach to design. He did a 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.640 lot of work at a lot of courses. He wasn't 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:05.320 known for his artistry, unlike his contemporaries Harry Colt and 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.680 Tom Simpson. You know, no one out there, I don't. 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.400 I mean very few people at the very least are 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:17.600 begging for restorations of Fred G. Hawtree courses. But Hawtrey 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.200 did end up having a big influence on British golf architecture. 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:26.280 His son, Fred W. Hawtrey carried on the family business 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.760 and in turn passed it on to Martin Hawtree, who 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:35.080 is still building and renovating golf courses today. So the 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:39.040 haw Tree firm is now one hundred and fourteen years old, 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:45.680 widely recognized as the longest continuously operating golf architecture company 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:50.120 in the world, obviously extremely successful. And I would say 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.440 that the haw Trees are sort of like the Jones 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:58.600 family of Great Britain, right, Robert Trent Jones, Robert Trent Jones, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.840 Junior Rhys Jones, Except unlike the Joneses, they haven't really 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:07.000 gone out of style or you know, had their courses 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.880 kind of reversed in their character the way that the 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.960 Joneses have over and over in the US. You know, 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.800 in my opinion, Mackenzie and Ebert, Tom McKenzie and Martin 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.800 Ebert the dominant golf architecture firm of the Open ROTA Today. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.200 Mackenzie and Ebert are very much in the Hotrey mold, 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.040 doing a lot of work a lot of places, frequently 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.920 hired by courses that want to host big tournaments, not 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:40.040 particularly renowned for their craftsmanship, all right. So that is 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:44.440 the architectural lineage behind the nineteen thirty two Birkdale Golf Course. 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.920 It received the Royal designation in nineteen fifty one, hosted 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.840 its first Open in nineteen fifty four and ever since 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.640 then has very much been part of the Open RODA. 0:08:56.040 --> 0:09:00.359 This year's championship will be the eleventh that Royal Bridale 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.600 has hosted since nineteen fifty four. Great list of winners, 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:11.320 Peter Thompson twice, Arnold Palmer, Lee Trevino, Johnny Miller, Tom Watson, 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:15.959 Ian Baker Finch, Marc o'meira, Patty Harrington and Jordan Speif 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.680 that's a murderer's row, I mean, that's a list to 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.120 be proud of. There's not really a random one in there. 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.600 You look at that list and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:30.640 those guys could play golf. So the course itself has 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.439 seen many updates over the years. Right Fred W. Hawtree 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.920 made some big changes in the nineteen sixties He created 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.280 the current par three twelfth hole and completely rebunkered the course. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.280 The original bunkering at Royal Birkdale was much more kind 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.720 of rugged and lacy edged. Today's bunkering is kind of 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:53.079 that typical stack sod pop bunkering that you see at 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:57.720 many golf courses in this region. Then in nineteen ninety 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:03.400 one Martin Hawtree rebuild and redesigned all of the greens. 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.640 So basically every open, and there have been many opens 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.280 at Royal Birkdale, every open has brought a new round 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.640 of nips and tucks to this course and this year 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.000 is no exception. Tom McKenzie of the firm Mackenzie and 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.199 Ebert completed a major renovation last year, which we will 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:27.480 talk about Joseph later in this episode. I think that's 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:31.880 good for history. Let's go through the elements of the 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.200 golf course at Royal Birkdale. We're going to talk about 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:40.040 the land, the routing, the hazards, the greens, and the 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.720 design philosophy. Does that sound good? Sounds great? All right, 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.000 let's start with the land. I want to you know, 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.840 start off with your with your you know, impressions of 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.319 the land as you walked onto the golf course, as 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:57.520 you played the holes. How would you describe the terrain 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:58.600 at Royal Birkdale. 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:03.559 The dunes are the obvious land features at Royal Birkdale. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.040 And as I'm sure you're going to talk about, a 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.240 lot of the fairways sit between the dunes. It's not 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.760 a golf course where there's a lot of traversing of 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.880 those dunes. You're near the water, you're near the Irish Sea, 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.120 but you don't ever you don't ever approach the sea. 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:19.920 You don't see it. 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.839 But the wind is a significant factor, in part because 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.760 of the proximity to the Irish Sea. So the things 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.520 that stand out, in addition to the wind and the 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.880 prevalence of wind, which I think is an important ingredient 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.160 of an Open Championship and how it tests golfers. The 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.160 dunes are a very significant part of the golf course 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:40.400 and they're not out of play. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:41.120 You know. 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.960 It's not that the yes, the fairways don't necessarily traverse them, 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.840 and greens aren't positioned on a lot of the dunes. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.800 But the dunes are in play, as people will remember 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.920 from you know, Jordan Spief blowing a shot way right 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.880 on thirteen onto one of those dunes. You can end 0:11:57.960 --> 0:11:58.520 up on them. 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.200 But yeah, of the dunes really, I mean like the 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:03.200 other side of the dunes. 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.120 Yeah, but that's the dominant land feature and I think 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.920 that that should inform how people think about the golf course. 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.199 Okay, Yeah, dunes and wind. Those are kind of the 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:18.920 big big features of this property. Spectacular dunes right thirty 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:23.720 to forty feet tall, probably the biggest dunes on the 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:28.960 Open Roda, or at least rivaling those, especially you know 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.760 for an English golf course. These are dunes of the 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.640 type that you might associate a little bit more with 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.520 with Irish links courses. You mentioned the wind. My understanding 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.160 is the wind basically rips right off of the Irish Sea, 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:48.400 so it's coming directly in from from the shoreline roughly 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:54.959 west northwest on the compass, and that is the predominant 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.280 wind direction, but of course not the only wind direction. 0:12:57.880 --> 0:12:59.920 One more thing I'd like to mention about this stretch 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:05.480 of links Land is that it also includes a couple 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.120 of other golf courses. So right next door to Royal 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:14.640 Brookdale is Hillside Golf Club, which has hosted some big 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.880 tournaments including the British Masters and number of years ago. 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.640 And then next to Hillside you'll find Southport and Ainsdale 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.520 Golf Club, which I've heard some great things about. So 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:27.959 all three of these courses kind of sit side by 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:32.960 side in this dune system. Royal Birkdale, of course, you know, 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:38.200 owns the most valuable part of this dune system, closest 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:42.800 to the ocean and with the biggest dunes. So that's 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.680 the kind of property we're dealing with, a Duneland property, 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.760 and very dramatic even for an open course. Okay, So 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.800 that leads us to the routing of the golf course 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.079 I have a couple of takes about the routing of 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:58.800 the golf course, so I'll talk about this first and 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.320 then i'll send it to you for you to tell 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:05.560 me whether this is sort of a correct set of conclusions. 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.720 But for me, it is the routing of Royal Birkdale 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:14.680 that really identifies it as a modern links. So first 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.600 of all, it's laid out in two loops of nine 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.920 has returning nines. The front nine travels around the northern 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.400 half of the property and the back nine travels around 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.520 the half, and the basic momentum of each nine is 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:34.240 to venture out toward the ocean side end of the property. Again, 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.120 you can't see the Irish Sea from the golf course 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:40.280 as you mentioned, but you know generally the course kind 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.240 of goes out toward the ocean and then comes back. 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:46.440 The back nine has a couple of different loops where 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:48.120 it goes out toward that end of the property and 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:53.080 then comes back and then goes back out. So each 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.160 nine kind of has this has this momentum toward one 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.000 end of the property. But returning nines is the big 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.040 thing to notice here. This is not your old school 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:08.160 out and back golf course like Royal Troon or the 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:12.360 Old Course. The second big thing about the routing at 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:16.320 Royal Birkdale that feels modern to me is that the 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:21.000 holes almost exclusively run between the dune ridges instead of 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.760 going directly over them. And you already mentioned this. Just 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.840 about every fairway sits in a valley between dunes, and 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.440 just about every green sits in a little amphitheater surrounded 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.280 by dunes, and as a result, the fairways are relatively 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.640 flat and the greens are mostly relatively flat. This, I 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.880 would say is a very post World War II approach 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.920 to routing Duneland properties. Keeping in mind obviously that Fred 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:53.840 Hawtree and Jage Taylor did all this in nineteen thirty two, 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.080 so I guess in a sense they were ahead of 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.760 their time. But this kind of a approach where you 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.800 where you're kind of avoiding the bigger dunes is something 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:09.880 that I associate more with modern links in Great Britain 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:14.640 and Ireland than with links that were built or redesigned 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.880 in the nineteen twenties or before. So those are the 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.640 two big points I'd make about Royal Birkdale's routing. And 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:25.320 it has those returning nines, each going toward the ocean 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.240 and then coming back, and it has this tendency to 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:34.000 stay between the big dunes instead of interacting with those dunes. 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:39.280 So do those points conform with your experience of the course, Joseph, 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:39.840 They do. 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.280 This is not a correction, but I wouldn't say that. 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.280 When you're playing the golf course, it feels like you're 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.320 at the beginning of each nine kind of going out 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.480 towards the sea and then back. Since it is insulated 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.760 and you never see the sea, it's not like the 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.360 wind intensifies as you get closer to the sea. So 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.960 it doesn't really feel that way to me, that you're 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:01.840 making your way out towards the water and then. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.520 Doesn't feel like there's like a magnet that's attracting you 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.560 out there, like it doesn't St Andrews, you know, going 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.320 out toward the estuary, it feels like, you know, that's 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.000 drawing you out, and then the town draws you back. 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:13.679 There's not that same feeling. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.680 I played the golf course one time, so I don't 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.480 want to There might be people who play it every 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:20.640 day and feel that way that they're being drawn out 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.560 toward the sea and then back, but no, it didn't 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.879 feel that way to me. I think the other The 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.919 only other part that maybe you didn't mention that I 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.600 felt was true and I think it sometimes discussed with Burkedale, 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.359 is it does make your changing directions a lot. For 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.159 the first twelve holes, you're never really playing two holes 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.119 in the same direction there or even like straight and 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:46.919 back right back. Once you get towards like thirteen, fifteen, 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.840 seventeen and eighteen all kind of play in the same direction, 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.359 and then fourteen and sixteen play back in the opposite direction. 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.640 But until you get to that point of the golf course, 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.000 you're sort of always playing in different wind directions like that. 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.879 That's the big part that's noticeable when you're playing it. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.199 The wind is kind of constantly changing on you, and 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.080 that is something that I like about the golf course. 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:11.440 But yes, i'd say the defining characteristics of flat fairways 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.679 and flat greens situated between dunes you're appropriately hitting on. 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:17.960 And in terms of the going out to the sea 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:18.360 and back. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:18.960 It's true. 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.800 And I have Google Earth pulled up and I'm looking 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.040 at it, and that's certainly true, but I would say 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.680 it doesn't it doesn't feel that way when you're prying 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:27.359 the golf course. 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:29.480 Well, this is why it's insightful to have you on 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.760 because I'm just looking at Google Earth and being like, oh, 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.560 look at that. But yeah, I mean, I guess since 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.639 you can't see the ocean that you don't necessarily have 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.440 that orientation of I'm going toward it and then coming back. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.600 But the changes of direction is an important point to 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.240 make about this routing, and it's another thing that I 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.080 associate a little bit more with not modern links, but 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:58.240 more like post nineteen hundred's links. Right, Whereas a lot 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.840 of nineteenth century eighteenths links golf courses were happy to 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.679 go out and back and have multiple holes going in 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:11.159 the same direction. In sequence, there was much more of 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.240 an emphasis after the turn of the century on varying 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.000 the direction of the holes throughout the course. Now, another 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:22.359 thing that I've heard about World Birkedale's routing is that 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.359 a lot of holes are set on crosswinds specifically, so 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:32.080 the wind comes in from the Irish Sea predominantly northwest, 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:34.760 and a lot of the holes are kind of oriented, 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:40.679 you know, perpendicular to that wind direction. Is that something 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:42.040 that you picked up on while you were. 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.280 There, Yeah, I would say I need to think through 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.040 the prevailing wind on every shot I had the prevailing wind, 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.760 So it's sort of helpful here as a reference. Like 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.000 straight away, the first hole you can go O B 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.160 right and the wind is off your left, so it's 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.760 not the most comfortable t shot, which is something that 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:00.439 I like about the golf course in terms of how 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.679 it tests pros. Some of the other shots, yeah, some 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.520 of the par threes, like seven is I think a 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.919 frequently photographed hole, kind of a short part three. The 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.399 wind is straight off your right. Twelve another part three 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.800 that is often photographed and one of the more iconic holes. 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:18.600 I guess you'd say, I don't know that any hole 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.480 at Brokedale's necessarily iconic, but twelve would probably be. 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.120 Towards the top of the list, straight off the right. 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.480 So some of the holes at the end you have 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:29.879 the wind you're either straight into or it's behind you. 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.639 But I would say, especially through the first twelve holes, 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.480 you're dealing with a crosswind, which is really difficult to play. 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:37.879 And there are a lot of shots where you've got 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.199 to start a shot if there's a decent amount of 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:44.520 wind pretty significantly far right of the green, if the 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.320 wind is off your right, and trust that it's going 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.040 to come back, like playing in the wind is a 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:50.040 very significant variable at Brookdale. 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:51.920 Yes, a lot of crosswinds out there. 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.480 Yeah, if we get significant wind during the open, it's 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:00.000 going to be challenging. It's going to be entertaining because 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.760 because the ball is going to be getting pushed left 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.520 or right. You know, you're not often traveling directly up 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.879 or down the prevailing wind. If you get the prevailing wind, 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.880 players are going to be having to manage their shot 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:18.199 shape with some pretty narrow corridors. You know, they're going 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.440 to be pushed into these dunes in one direction or 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.360 the other. So, yeah, the course can it can very 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.840 quickly become a beast from the sounding. 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:29.000 I guess, not to interrupt you, but I would need 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:31.800 to maybe think this through a little more. Like Shittacock, 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.760 for example, the prevailing wind is not the most difficult 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:37.480 way to play the golf course when you get the 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.879 opposite wind to the prevailing winds right right versus at Brickdale, 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:43.760 I would need to think about how all the holes 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.720 are oriented. But I think the prevailing wind would probably 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.760 be the most challenging direction. Don't don't hold me to that, 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:52.280 but it's a really difficult wind to play the golf 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.520 course in. So I don't know if that's I would 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:57.359 want to flesh that out a little more before saying 0:21:57.359 --> 0:21:59.520 it definitively, but it feels that way and going through 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:00.080 the holes. 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.040 In that's an interesting point. Yeah, that's kind of a 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.639 different approach to routing for the wind. Do you route 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:11.919 for the most difficult course to be the most common course, 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:14.080 or do you route for the course to be most 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:17.600 manageable in the prevailing wind. Obviously, the easiest wind is 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.119 no wind at both of the courses, but if you 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.560 get the prevailing wind at Shinnacock, the down wind holes 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.560 are often the logger holes and the into the wind 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.040 holes are often the shorter holes. That's just the way 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.160 William Flynn approached routing for the wind there. The course 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.359 is challenging enough as it is, and so you know, 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.040 when when the wind comes more out of the north 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.480 at Shinnecock, then you're really in trouble and a lot 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:44.240 of members choose not to play the course on those days. 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.240 And you know, when we happen to get that wind 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.399 during US opens, that's when Shinnecock really turns into a beast. 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:54.320 So yeah, interesting at Rollbrickdale that the approach seems to 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.720 have been perhaps different. All right, let's move on to 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:06.119 the primary hazards Royal Brokedale. I've identified three categories here bunkers, dune, 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:10.080 vegetation and wind. Now we've already sort of talked about 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.040 the wind, so let's get into the bunkers. What was 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:16.919 your experience with the bunkers at Royal Birkdale, both in 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:20.679 terms of their placement and in terms of their style 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:21.400 of construction. 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:23.960 Yeah, well, I know we're going to talk a little 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:28.320 bit more about the renovation work that Tom mackenzie spearheaded 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:31.040 in advance of this open I think a lot of 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:33.480 that was to soften some of the bunkers and make 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.520 them a little more playable for members. And I would say, 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:41.000 in comparison to some other open venues like Litham for example, 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.639 which I have a reference for now less Penal, the 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:47.680 bunkers are a little more playable from around the greens. 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:50.639 You can advance the ball farther if you find a 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:54.320 fairway bunker. But in play like I think the bunkers 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:58.560 are located in places overwhelmingly that makes sense that will 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:03.720 be at the appropriate scale for professional golfers, so not 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.399 as there aren't a million bunkers. I don't know exactly 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:08.840 how many bunkers are out there, but it's not I 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:11.159 wouldn't say you feel like there's a bunker everywhere, but 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:16.600 definitely they are real hazard, just not as penal at 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:18.639 some other Open championship. And you don't have to come 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:21.080 out sideways. It's not like if you're in a pop 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.919 bunker around the greens you have no chance. The pretty manageable, 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:27.480 I would say, kind of going back to the fairness 0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:30.639 idea that you laid out at the top of this podcast, 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:35.520 kind of feels like if this, if the original vision 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:37.320 was that you should be able to get up in 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:40.040 town from a bunker, then that is represented in the 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:40.679 golf course. 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.439 So it's not like Roal Liverpool where the bunkers are 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:48.920 kind of intentionally sadistic in a way right, where they 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:52.720 you know, intentionally created kind of flat bottom bunkers in 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:54.879 a lot of places that were all Liverpool so that 0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:57.800 the ball would end up against the lip and not 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:02.080 be advanceable. Roy Burkedale a little bit more manageable. Now, 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:05.280 what about a position. Just looking at Royal Birkedale, it 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.760 seems to me that often both sides of the fairway 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:13.840 and both sides of the greens are defended by bunkers. 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:17.959 But we have a few different kinds of arrangements in 0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:22.359 the fairways, some staggered arrangements here and there. What was 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:25.639 there general feeling about how the bunkers were placed the 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:30.600 spots that they most frequently show up in a player's 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:31.760 kind of dispersion pattern. 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:35.959 There's not a whole lot of like a bunker in 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:38.199 the middle of the fairway or a bunker that like 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:41.440 juts out into the fairway that makes you think about 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:43.240 whether or not you want to lay up short of 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:45.960 it or try to push past of it. It's more 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:49.560 bunkers that are to the side of the fairway or 0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:53.359 to the side of the greens, and you're not thinking 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:57.040 as much I would say about like distance control and again, 0:25:57.080 --> 0:25:58.360 do I want to play short of this or try 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:00.679 to push past it. It's more if I hit something offline, 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:03.639 there is a bunker there to catch it. And I 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:06.960 think that's basically the general premise throughout the golf course, 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:10.399 so there's very little exception to that. Sixteen is one 0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:11.959 where there's a bunker in the middle of the Fairway, 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:13.520 I don't. I'd have to think about if there's any 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:15.919 other ones that are like that. But often, you know, 0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:19.320 you might have a bunker on the dog leg and 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:21.840 you got to carry it. If you don't, you're in 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:26.479 the bunker. Like That's how number six is. Yeah, I'd 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:29.119 say that's the general which which I think kind of 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:32.320 goes in line with the Penal school of architecture that 0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:34.240 you alluded to again at the top of the show. 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:35.600 So that was my experience with it. 0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.040 It would likely be that would be the method that 0:26:39.040 --> 0:26:42.520 the Jage Taylor would prefer and defend, though I'm sure 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:46.280 he would like more cross bunkers to be present at 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:50.760 Royal Birkdale. There there generally aren't kind of like big 0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:54.560 bunkers at Royal Birkdale. Most of them are small pots 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:58.440 and sometimes they're chained together to create a bigger hazard. 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:01.800 But rarely do you see the kind of big bunkers 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:04.159 going across the line of play. You know, there are 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:08.360 a few that Mackenzie and Ebert reintroduced to certain places. 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:10.560 To a couple of holes here and there, like on 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:13.840 five and seventeen would be the examples that would come 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:16.360 into mind. Fairway bunkers that are more of that kind 0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:20.960 of blowout style, more rugged in their appearance, and of 0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:24.760 course bigger as a result. What was it like when 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:27.640 you were off the fairway and in the rough? 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:30.280 So this is the biggest, I would argue, the biggest 0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:36.439 defense of Royal Birkdale, and from my perspective, in what 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:42.040 provides an effective test of professional golf. Having a golf 0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:45.360 course where there's a lot of space and the fairways 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:48.920 are pretty narrow. But often the fairway might be let's say, 0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:51.919 twenty five yards wide, but from dune to dune or 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:57.360 from really thick dune vegetation area to thick dune vegetation 0:27:57.440 --> 0:27:59.520 area on the other side it's like sixty five or 0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:02.360 seventy yards. So often what you will find at Brickdale, 0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:04.640 and I would this is one of the defining characteristics 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:08.280 in my opinion, kind of a narrow fairway and then 0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:13.240 five to eight yards there's usually like maybe three yards 0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:16.960 of rough, like a first cut that's pretty short and 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:19.719 you're fine if you find it ball sitting up, and 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:22.879 then another like five to seven yards of kind of 0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:27.360 a thin ish native area that's playable. You'll find your 0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:29.639 ball even if there weren't spectators out there, but you 0:28:29.640 --> 0:28:32.399 don't want to be there. It's sitting down. And then 0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:34.840 once you get wide of that, you get this thick, 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:40.120 dense vegetation. And if there weren't spectators, you probably wouldn't 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:42.760 find your ball, certainly wouldn't be able to advance it 0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:46.920 very far. If you get really wide, then there could 0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:49.240 be some instances where you're in spectator areas and you 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:51.720 kind of get bailed out and open. But largely I 0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:54.160 would say that is the texture, the complexion of the 0:28:54.160 --> 0:28:58.320 golf course. A pretty narrow fairway, a small penalty for missing, 0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:02.120 and then a very very significant penalty for missing wide, 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:05.200 and that is where these dunes are in play are 0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:07.200 impacting the golf course because you could hit into the 0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:10.320 side of a dune super thick lie, I have almost 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:13.120 no chance of advancing the ball. If you were to 0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:15.920 kind of map out the penalties with like a small 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:19.320 miss and a wide miss, it's probably about, as you know, 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:26.760 mathematically symmetrical as about anywhere on any open venue that 0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:29.040 I could think of, And I guess there's probably some 0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:33.400 aversion to that to an extent in some architecture circles. 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:37.120 But I think talking about it couldn't possibly be me. 0:29:38.680 --> 0:29:41.480 Well, I'm not even just saying you necessarily, but I 0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:44.600 know that when I've mentioned that before, that that there's 0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:48.480 I don't think it needs to be mathematically precise, but 0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:51.640 I do like when a wide miss finds a significant penalty, 0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:53.360 and I think that's part of why the pros will 0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:56.400 really like Royal Birkdale as it does that. That's what 0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:58.320 pros talk about all the time, like I want a 0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:00.960 good shot rewarded, a bad shot pun The wide t 0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:04.920 shots here are punished very effectively, and part of that 0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:07.040 is because how much space there is out there. It's 0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:10.440 not a cramped golf course where spectator areas now are 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:14.440 bailing out or tournament infrastructure is bailing out a wide miss. 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:17.520 That is a key characteristic. 0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:19.400 Of Brickdale and why I would argue in part that 0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:21.560 it might have more merit as a venue than it 0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:23.960 does as a golf course, and there is a distinction 0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:24.560 between the two. 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:28.360 And Roal Brickdale has based its identity for a long 0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:33.320 time on the fact that it frequently hosts major tournaments, 0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:35.840 not just the Open Championship, but the Women's Open and 0:30:36.320 --> 0:30:40.360 the Amateur Championship, et cetera. And so this is a 0:30:40.440 --> 0:30:44.600 major reason for the club to exist. It is the 0:30:44.640 --> 0:30:48.680 thing that they pursue. And so, yeah, certainly makes sense 0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:55.400 that a graduated penalty would be cultivated on a lot 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:57.640 of the t shots on these holes. And that's kind 0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:00.680 of what you're describing, this graduated penalty where the wide 0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:05.160 misses get the get the most severe punishment. The narrow 0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:08.520 misses still get punished, but less so. And if you're 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:10.680 in the middle of the fairway and you hit it, 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.440 you hit strike the ball, well, then then you'll often 0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:17.760 find yourself in a very good position to attack the whole. Okay, 0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:23.440 that's that's really interesting. Obviously, a key characteristic of Royald Birkedale, 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:27.480 perhaps even more important than the bunkers, is the fact 0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:32.760 that the the dune vegetation, the rough is laid out 0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:41.960 in this fashion that you're talking about. This episode of 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:46.280 Designing Golf is brought to you by Mobjack. Mobjack is 0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:51.680 a craft brand specializing in luxury lifestyle belts. These belts 0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:55.400 are forged from the mastery of skilled artisans who pour 0:31:55.920 --> 0:32:00.320 their expertise and care into every detail their handcraft. In 0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:05.880 the USA, using traditional cutting and stitching leather working techniques, 0:32:06.400 --> 0:32:10.720 Mobjack belts are produced in small batches with Italian leather 0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:14.160 finished to the highest standards. 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Also, keep an eye out right now for 0:32:51.000 --> 0:32:54.960 a number of great mob Jack summer styles, including the Southampton, 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:58.680 the new Port, and the watch Hill. So step up 0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:02.680 your style with a help from Mobjack. Go to mobjack 0:33:02.760 --> 0:33:05.760 dot com to see everything that they're offering, and use 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:09.960 the code fried egg for fifteen percent off. That's code 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:21.280 fried Egg, all one word at mobjack dot com. That 0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:24.200 brings us to the Greens. Joseph and I want to 0:33:24.240 --> 0:33:27.080 start with you here. You know it's hard to get 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:30.960 a sense for greens from Afar from pictures. I've done 0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:34.880 my best and I have my general impressions of modern 0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:37.680 greens that have been built at many open road to courses. 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:41.400 But how would you describe the greens at Royal Birkdale. 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:45.040 It's hard to get a sense of even after having 0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:47.480 been there. Garrett like, I don't have a ton to 0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:52.800 say about the greens. They're pretty flat. There's a little 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:56.720 bit of movement in them, and there's some elevation change, 0:33:56.720 --> 0:33:58.200 and I think some of the greens that have been 0:33:58.200 --> 0:34:01.960 built more recently have more of that slope, more slope 0:34:01.960 --> 0:34:07.200 in them, like the seventeenth there's a significant amount of 0:34:07.200 --> 0:34:10.239 slope in the seventeenth green. And the par fives tend 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.359 to have pretty big greens, pretty long from front to back, 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:18.200 which I think has its virtues from the standpoint of 0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:21.719 not just that it's they're achievable to hit intwo for 0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:24.040 somebody who's playing in the open, for a professional golfer, 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:26.400 but also if you hit it in a bad spot 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:29.479 at the ball, then can actually travel and roll into 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:32.040 slopes into a bad area. So I think you'll see 0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:36.000 that on the par five, six, fourteen, and seventeen all 0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:40.840 are pretty big greens. But other than that, most of 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:44.640 the greens are similar in size. They're oval, they don't 0:34:44.680 --> 0:34:48.160 have a ton of movement in them, and there aren't there. 0:34:48.280 --> 0:34:48.799 There are some. 0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:51.759 Most of them are surrounded by short grass, but it's 0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:53.839 not like, oh, if you miss right on this green, 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:54.960 you're completely dead. 0:34:56.239 --> 0:34:58.960 It's not super severe, not super severe. 0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:01.279 Yeah, it's not super There's not a ton of areas 0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:03.880 where if you're short sighted you're in a huge amount 0:35:03.920 --> 0:35:04.360 of trouble. 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:05.240 I'd say largely. 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:07.720 Yeah, they're oval, they have a little bit of slope 0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:11.080 in them, not a ton. In the defense of this 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:12.640 golf course is not the greens. 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:19.480 Yeah, yeah, that's basically been my impression. Now, instead of 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:23.000 speaking specifically to Royal Birkdale's greens, which again I haven't 0:35:23.040 --> 0:35:27.680 experienced in person, I want to talk about what I 0:35:27.680 --> 0:35:31.440 would consider this sort of house style of green design 0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:36.840 in modern British golf architecture, and I'm talking more about 0:35:37.000 --> 0:35:39.680 work that's been done at Open Road to courses over 0:35:39.719 --> 0:35:43.640 the years by the likes of Martin Haughtree, Donald Steele 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:47.440 and most recently Mackenzie and Ebert. I think there is 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:52.280 a trend in green design and again, a house style 0:35:53.160 --> 0:35:56.040 and a lot of the greens that Royal Birkdale from 0:35:56.040 --> 0:36:00.960 photos I've seen, you know, kind of embody this tendency, 0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:06.800 So that style is basically a roughly and oval shaped 0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:13.359 putting surface, sometimes kind of peanut shaped, maybe almost always 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:19.400 longer than it is wide, sometimes set on a diagonal, 0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:24.000 especially on par three's, but I would say usually set 0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:28.520 straight onto the line of play, often guarded on both 0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:33.320 sides by pop bunkers front right, front left with a 0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:37.960 short grass run up through the middle is a frequent 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:44.680 orientation on the putting surface itself. Mostly flat, you know, 0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:50.080 generally speaking, severe tilts are not very common. You don't 0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:54.840 see a lot of prominent, rounded internal contours like rolls 0:36:55.040 --> 0:37:00.200 or spines or depressions or channels. Sometimes you'll see a 0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:04.800 tier to define a difficult pin position, but for the 0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:08.800 most part, the internal contouring is pretty simple and quiet. 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:15.560 The most distinctive aspect of this house style, though, is 0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:20.000 these kind of scoopy short grass runoffs along the edges, 0:37:20.800 --> 0:37:26.200 basically chipping swales that will shed inaccurate approaches away from 0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:31.920 the putting surface and toward these lower collection areas. These 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:37.200 swales often have roughly the same shape and scale regardless 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:41.360 of the setting or the surrounding topography or whatever natural 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:45.560 environment the green is tying into. But you see them 0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:47.759 a lot of places. Once you see them, you can't 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:51.520 unsee them now. I would say, good example is the 0:37:51.600 --> 0:37:54.800 new Fifteenth Green, the new par three that Mackenzie and 0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:56.920 Ebert built, and we'll talk more about that when we 0:37:57.000 --> 0:38:00.719 get to the renovation work section of the podcast. But 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:02.960 if you just look at the fifteenth Green, yeah, it's 0:38:02.960 --> 0:38:05.360 set on a little diagonal. There's some interest there, but 0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:10.800 it is longer than it is wide, it has some bunkering, 0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:15.320 but the primary feature is these chipping swales along the 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:18.880 sides of the green that have this roughly sort of 0:38:19.040 --> 0:38:24.600 wavelike appearance, so that they are defined into different collection areas. 0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:30.240 This is something I see on a lot of modern 0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:35.400 and renovated links courses in Great Britain and Ireland. It 0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:38.400 is very characteristic of the work of Donald Steele, who 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:42.120 renovated many of these courses in the seventies and eighties. 0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:45.480 You see it a lot from Martin Hawtree, and we've 0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:49.160 been seeing it very very often from Mackenzie and Ebert 0:38:49.239 --> 0:38:52.000 as well, though I will give Mackenzie and Ebert some 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:54.840 credit here. I think that there there is a little 0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:58.040 bit more variety in the way that they've executed this 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:01.920 concept on various greens than than we saw in the 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:06.440 work of say Donald Steele. But but it is kind 0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:09.960 of still representative of what I would call this house style, 0:39:10.760 --> 0:39:14.400 And honestly, it just drives me crazy. I think. I 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:18.840 think there's just there's this much much better ways to 0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:21.960 approach green design that they're there are so many ways 0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:26.360 that you can tie a green into its environment, uh 0:39:26.560 --> 0:39:30.960 and kind of mimic the surrounding landforms that are more elegant. 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:35.680 But I'm just not sure that that we've seen a 0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:39.960 huge amount of shaping talent and have these courses in 0:39:40.360 --> 0:39:45.080 recent years at open road of courses. You know, it's 0:39:46.320 --> 0:39:50.279 often often this work is contracted out and and uh 0:39:50.760 --> 0:39:52.560 and and so to my mind, a lot of these 0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:54.640 greens have come out looking a little bit similar to 0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:57.600 each other. But that's just a general take, you know, 0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:02.439 not necessarily about Royal Birkdale specifically, because again I haven't 0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:05.239 seen them in person. I'm just getting an impression from 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:09.080 the photos about these designs. But to me, it's starting 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:10.200 to get a little bit repetitive. 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:14.520 So my only quick reactions to that fifteen that you 0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:17.760 outlined the new Part three, which we'll talk more about 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.080 some of the renovations later in this podcast. But that's 0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:22.880 a little more severe than a lot of what you 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:26.319 see at Brikedale. Pretty steep actually where it falls off 0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:28.840 to the right in a tightly mown area that is 0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:31.960 pretty significantly uphill if you miss that green over to 0:40:32.000 --> 0:40:34.680 the right. Most of what you see at Brikedale, some 0:40:34.760 --> 0:40:36.960 of the greens are yeah, they're perched up, but it 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:40.160 might be like a foot of the drop off. It's 0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:42.880 not that severe. The only other real exception I can 0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:45.359 think of to that is nine, which has a significant 0:40:45.719 --> 0:40:48.120 false front that if you come up short on nine, 0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:53.160 it probably rolls twenty yards back to your feet, and. 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:56.000 Probably seventeen to two, which is like an enormously long 0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:57.719 green with deft levels to it. 0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:01.760 The par fives are long, and especially seven the greens 0:41:02.080 --> 0:41:04.560 the par fives are long, and seventeen has some pretty 0:41:04.600 --> 0:41:07.960 significant slope in it. I would say, outside of fifteen, 0:41:08.040 --> 0:41:10.719 the par three nine, which has a big false front. 0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:13.200 In the par fives, almost all of the greens are 0:41:13.239 --> 0:41:15.719 about the same size, whether it's Part three or Part four, 0:41:15.760 --> 0:41:18.959 about the same size oval and might have a little 0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:22.480 tight runoff area in different parts, surrounded by pop bunkers 0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:26.680 and not indistinguishable from each other, because somebody who plays 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:28.920 there every day would know the subtleties of all the greens, 0:41:29.000 --> 0:41:31.640 but largely not a lot of variety in terms of 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:34.399 their size, in terms of the little chipping runoff areas 0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:35.160 that you talked about. 0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:40.360 If you had to sum up the design philosophy behind 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:42.800 Royal Brickdale, how would you put it? 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:46.600 Well? I think it's relevant that it's in the lease 0:41:46.680 --> 0:41:49.719 that was granted to the course. According to the documentation 0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:52.000 that we were provided, it says this was designed as 0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:54.360 a tournament venue and that this is supposed to be 0:41:54.480 --> 0:41:59.840 a championship test. And I'd argue that it meets that criteria. 0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:02.799 That you know, fair is a word that I would 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:05.400 probably be pretty quick to use here, And even though 0:42:05.480 --> 0:42:09.280 fairness isn't something that I necessarily think is super important 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:12.760 ingredient in a golf course, I think that the general 0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:16.920 like you talked about, the gradual penalty here is a 0:42:17.000 --> 0:42:20.440 significant part of the design philosophy. Whether that was a 0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:22.320 part of the original vision or not, I don't know 0:42:22.360 --> 0:42:24.960 how much they were thinking about gradual penalty in the 0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:27.719 late eighteen hundreds or in the nineteen thirties when this 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:29.320 redesign happened. But if you were to look at the 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:32.520 golf course now, I think that's one of the noticeable 0:42:32.600 --> 0:42:36.120 things that you'd call out about it immediately. There aren't 0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:40.480 a lot of blind shots. There aren't steep runoff a 0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:45.160 super steep runoff areas where you find yourself in total jail. 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:47.239 To me, it's like it's an. 0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:52.560 Eight It's a collection of eighteen solid holes that all 0:42:52.760 --> 0:42:55.680 kind of fit the same mold. Like, yeah, penalty for 0:42:55.800 --> 0:43:00.640 missing real premium on ball striking and being able to 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:05.319 control your trajectories and penalties associated with not being able 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:09.120 to do that, And that's basically every hole on repeat. 0:43:09.200 --> 0:43:12.280 But I wouldn't when I say that it sounds mundane 0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:15.000 or repetitive, I gotta say I didn't find the golf 0:43:15.080 --> 0:43:19.560 course to be repetitive rote redundant, Like I actually think 0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:22.120 there's a decent amount of variety out there, more than 0:43:22.120 --> 0:43:25.600 I would have thought before. And like from a memorability standpoint, 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:27.840 the criteria do you remember all the golf holes? I do, 0:43:28.200 --> 0:43:30.560 and I find them to be a little more distinct 0:43:30.640 --> 0:43:33.400 than I might have thought going in so, but I 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:36.480 still think that fairness and that gradual penalty feels like 0:43:36.480 --> 0:43:38.960 a pretty significant part of the DNA of this golf course. 0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:40.880 Whether that was part of the vision from the beginning 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:42.440 or now, I think it. 0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:46.120 Was for sure. But I'm curious what distinguishes the golf 0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:48.400 holes from each other for you, because as if you 0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:51.920 were from home, that's something that has been really challenging 0:43:52.160 --> 0:43:53.600 with World Birkdale over the years. 0:43:54.680 --> 0:43:57.040 Well, I think the shot value is really high, and 0:43:57.080 --> 0:44:01.160 so there are a lot of shots that fully commanded attention. 0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:05.120 And for example, like the ninth hole dog leg right, 0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:08.279 you're not going to see too many golfers try and 0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:11.719 get over the corner because it's like two sixty and 0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:14.160 then once you get over the corner and it kind 0:44:14.200 --> 0:44:16.239 of slopes down to the right, the fairway gets very 0:44:16.360 --> 0:44:18.000 narrow and you almost have nowhere to land it. So 0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:19.640 you're going to see a lot of golfers hit shots 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:21.719 that are, you know, two hundred and fifty or so 0:44:21.960 --> 0:44:24.440 yards off the tee and then they'll have some kind 0:44:24.440 --> 0:44:27.200 of wedge in maybe one hundred and forty yards with 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:31.360 a lot of wind, and that's a different wind direction 0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:35.120 a different the whole dog legs in a way that's 0:44:35.120 --> 0:44:38.360 different than anything else out on the course. Really, I 0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:41.120 think there's quite a bit of variety in the first 0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:46.040 twelve holes. Maybe not the first couple, but you're playing, 0:44:46.120 --> 0:44:48.080 you're playing in a lot of different directions, and I 0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:51.760 think that there's a little bit of elevation change. Eleven, 0:44:51.840 --> 0:44:54.279 you're on an elevated tee and you're hitting that hole 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:56.279 is pretty much straight away, but like you're right back 0:44:56.320 --> 0:44:58.959 into the wind, and that's a really, really hard golf 0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:01.440 shot that you have to flight something down, hit like 0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:03.640 a low piercing T shot, and if you don't have that, 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:06.359 you're gonna get exposed. Does that come through on TV? 0:45:07.160 --> 0:45:09.319 Does that check the box of variety as much as 0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:11.400 maybe we might like. I don't know, but it was 0:45:11.680 --> 0:45:13.400 the only time I really felt like I had to 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:15.799 do that that day, from an elevated tea box into 0:45:15.840 --> 0:45:18.120 a huge amount of wind. So I would say from 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:22.480 a shot value standpoint, you're always your attention is always heightened, 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:25.279 and the shots that you're asked to hit around the 0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:27.239 greens are pretty similar. But I off the tee and 0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:29.680 into the greens, it's a lot of different types of 0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:31.960 shots like the fourth hole is I think it's two 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:35.600 twenty from this new back tea And when does straight 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:38.759 off your left to a pretty small green surrounded by 0:45:38.800 --> 0:45:42.320 pop bunkers really really difficult? And then seven is a 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:45.080 much shorter, it's a short iron when to straight off 0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:47.799 your right the green doesn't look that different. It's kind 0:45:47.800 --> 0:45:51.319 of a small green surrounded by pop bunkers. The shot 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:54.200 is downhill Like those two part thres, I don't know 0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:56.399 how differently they come across on TV, but they play 0:45:56.520 --> 0:46:00.799 completely differently. So again, is that the variety that comes 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:02.799 through on TV that you're talking about and being able 0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:05.200 to distinguish these holes from one another? Maybe not, but 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:08.200 in terms of playing them, and I think the pro 0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:10.520 golfers will probably attest to this after they go through, 0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:13.680 especially the first twelve or so holes. I think it's 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:14.880 a lot of different types of shots. 0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:18.520 Yeah. Well, I think what's coming through here for me 0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:25.400 is an impression that I've had all along really that 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:31.399 Royal Birkdale is very invested in fairness. Now, that can 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:34.000 be interesting. What's surprising to me, and what you're saying 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:37.960 is is how interesting that was for you. But the 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:41.640 design philosophy is one that is very devoted to fairness, 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:46.000 and yes, this graduated penalty has something to do with it, 0:46:47.080 --> 0:46:52.120 but the level nature of the fair ways is probably 0:46:52.239 --> 0:46:58.440 the biggest factor at Royal Birkdale that for me, contributes 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:01.640 to this overall impression that the courses is very much 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:05.440 about fairness. If you hit the fairway, you will have 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:09.960 a relatively level lie, with some exceptions here and there. 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:12.439 It's not as though the fairways are perfectly flat. There's 0:47:12.440 --> 0:47:15.920 a little bit of rumple on them, but in general, 0:47:16.600 --> 0:47:21.600 compared to most Links golf courses, especially the fairways at 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:25.520 Royal Birkdale, are relatively level. It's something that people have 0:47:25.719 --> 0:47:29.560 commented on at Royal Birkdale since the nineteen thirties that 0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:32.279 this is a way in which the course is very 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:37.160 different from other Links courses. And there are some, you know, 0:47:37.280 --> 0:47:40.000 a variety of theories as to how these fairways came 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.200 to be because if you look at the dune system there, 0:47:43.560 --> 0:47:46.640 if you look at the surrounding dunes, my understanding is 0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:50.960 that there are very few natural flat places and so 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:53.440 when you see these fairways kind of running between these 0:47:53.520 --> 0:47:56.480 big dune ridges that are more or less level, you 0:47:56.640 --> 0:47:59.399 have to think that those are artificial, that they were 0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:04.120 constructed to be that way somehow. Now, it was relatively 0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:07.520 rare in nineteen thirty two, especially in Great Britain, that 0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:12.200 a course would be manufactured from tea to green in 0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:15.920 this fashion, so that that would be something pretty remarkable 0:48:16.080 --> 0:48:20.759 in Gulf architecture for the time. But you know, one 0:48:20.840 --> 0:48:24.080 theory that I read about in an article by Ron 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:28.520 Witten from two thousand and eight before the two thousand 0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:34.160 and eight Open Championship. Witten's idea is that basically the 0:48:34.280 --> 0:48:39.040 course was routed through natural valleys, through places where there 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:43.200 might have been even some water courses going through the dunes, 0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:46.800 but that the level of those valleys was raised a 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:50.680 little bit. That they basically built the fairways up from 0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:54.680 the bottom of the valleys and left them relatively flat. 0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:57.600 And Ron Witten goes as far to say that you know, 0:48:57.760 --> 0:49:03.240 hat Tree might have hired a road contractor to build 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:06.080 the fairways and that's part of the explanation as to 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:10.800 why they are so flat. But yeah, this is a 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:14.360 defining characteristic of Royal Birkdale and it's something that I 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:17.720 think pros and joy where if they hit the fairway 0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:20.440 then then they're all right. They're not on a side slope. 0:49:20.880 --> 0:49:25.439 You know, that's something that competitive golfers have complained about 0:49:25.560 --> 0:49:28.680 at Saint Andrews since the eighteen hundreds, that you can 0:49:28.760 --> 0:49:30.239 hit the ball in the middle of the fairway the 0:49:30.280 --> 0:49:33.800 ideal position and find yourself on a weird lie. That 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:36.480 can happen at Roural Saint George's, it can happen at 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:40.640 Royal Port Rush. So you know, pros like these level 0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:43.000 lies in the fairway and that's something that Royal Birkdale 0:49:43.080 --> 0:49:49.880 provides for me, though it is the course is missing 0:49:50.000 --> 0:49:53.959 something because of that. For me, one of the most 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:58.120 fascinating and pleasurable things about links golf is that there 0:49:58.239 --> 0:50:01.880 is undulation and the and there's a little bit of mystery, 0:50:02.400 --> 0:50:05.640 a little bit of complexity to the game once you're 0:50:05.680 --> 0:50:08.120 in the fairway, and you know, as far as a 0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:11.200 test is concerned, I think that the test of hitting 0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:15.120 off of an uneven lie is a worthy one for 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:21.200 a professional golfer as well. So in any case, the uh, 0:50:21.600 --> 0:50:25.239 if we're talking about philosophy of design, those flat fairways 0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:28.239 and relatively level greens, that's an essential part of it. 0:50:28.680 --> 0:50:32.120 If you're within the playing field at Royal Brokedale, then 0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:35.120 then your game is going to be relatively predictable. 0:50:35.239 --> 0:50:39.760 I guess well, it's probably sounding like I like fairness 0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:41.840 more than I actually do. I think the course is 0:50:41.920 --> 0:50:44.480 missing something and how flat I would say how flat 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:47.080 the greens are more than how flat the fairways are. 0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:50.080 That's one of the things I appreciate about Augusta National 0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:52.440 most the way that the uneven lies interact with the 0:50:52.480 --> 0:50:54.920 shots you have to hit like that is such a 0:50:55.120 --> 0:50:58.600 cool part of Augusta National that yes, I think Royal 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:01.200 Birkdale is missing something with how flat the fairways and 0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:05.560 especially the greens are. But what I appreciate about the test, 0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:07.360 and whether you want to call this fairness or just 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:11.800 the test of high level golf. You can't bully this 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:14.760 golf course because of how big it is and because 0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:17.680 of how much there is a penalty for hitting something 0:51:17.760 --> 0:51:20.200 way off line. And I think in that sense it 0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:24.440 really commands a great golfer, a professional golfers attention, and 0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:28.560 a lot of these other open venues, sadly that don't 0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:31.279 play quite to the scale that they are intended to play. 0:51:31.480 --> 0:51:33.160 You can kind of stand on a tea box and 0:51:33.200 --> 0:51:35.160 say to yourself, like I can hit this one hard, 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:38.440 maybe carry a bunker that is supposed to be in 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:40.600 play and hit it anywhere, and even if I'm way 0:51:40.640 --> 0:51:42.080 off line, it's not going to be that big of 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:44.880 a deal. And you can't do that as much at 0:51:44.960 --> 0:51:46.800 Royal Birkdale. So I think that's the part of it 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:49.320 that I appreciated, and that it really heightened my attention 0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:51.759 on all the shots, because it's not like you can 0:51:51.840 --> 0:51:53.680 hit iron off a bunch of the te's it's still 0:51:53.719 --> 0:51:56.319 pretty beefy. And then if you're hitting driver and it's 0:51:56.400 --> 0:51:59.359 you got a significant crosswind and your ball is gone 0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:01.120 if you hit it thready yards right of the fair way, 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:03.560 like that's a really good test. So it's for me 0:52:03.640 --> 0:52:06.680 it was more about the shot value than the adherence 0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:09.640 to fairness, though I agree with you that a little 0:52:09.680 --> 0:52:14.359 bit more slope and some more interesting greens, frankly, would 0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:15.680 go a long way at Royal Birkdale. 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:20.360 Are there any courses that you think would be interesting 0:52:20.480 --> 0:52:24.759 to compare to Royal Birkdale, either in contrast or for 0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:26.360 characteristics that might be similar. 0:52:28.160 --> 0:52:30.399 I think it bears some resemblance to Port Rush. 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:33.560 I do. I think there's some similarity to Royal Port Rush, 0:52:33.600 --> 0:52:35.200 in the way it plays through a lot of the dunes. 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:41.320 It's not the type of links like baked out irons 0:52:41.360 --> 0:52:44.040 off to tea trying to avoid pop bunkers that jut 0:52:44.080 --> 0:52:46.600 out into the fair way. It feels I think it 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:48.759 feels in a lot of ways similar to Royal Port Rush. 0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:54.200 Maybe this isn't the best reference since we haven't seen 0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:56.080 it super recently, but I think it's like the polar 0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:58.920 opposite of Royal Litham in sane Hands, which I also saw, 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:02.520 where you're hitting bunker shots out sideways. It's like a quaint, 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.000 tight property where you kind of look around and you're like, 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:08.880 how can they have an open championship venue? How can 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:11.520 this host and open? You go to Birkdale, It's like, yeah, 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:12.960 this place can host and open. 0:53:13.040 --> 0:53:13.719 It's really big. 0:53:14.320 --> 0:53:17.360 Those dunes provide the good vantage points for spectators. So 0:53:18.160 --> 0:53:21.080 from the way it plays. I've never played Royal Port Rush, 0:53:21.160 --> 0:53:24.400 I have been there. I think there's some similarities, and 0:53:24.440 --> 0:53:27.800 then yeah, completely completely different than a place like Litham 0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.319 in Sant Anne's or any golf course that's really tight 0:53:30.480 --> 0:53:33.200 and you're kind of looking at other holes as you're playing, 0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:35.520 and maybe you have a wide miss and there's nowhere 0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:37.920 for the spectators to stand because it's a small property, 0:53:37.960 --> 0:53:39.560 so you're in the spectators and then you're hitting a 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:41.680 wedge onto the green and it doesn't really test you 0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:46.319 that much. Like this is quite different than that. Yeah, yeah, 0:53:46.360 --> 0:53:51.320 I mean Royal part Rush seems yeah, similar in some ways. 0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:54.160 It is is of like a similar vintage, right that 0:53:54.280 --> 0:53:58.319 they're early thirties golf courses. Essentially, that's when Harry Colet 0:53:58.360 --> 0:53:59.880 did so much of his work. 0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:04.160 At at Royal Port Rush. But Royal Port Rush does 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:08.360 have I think much more sophisticated in artful green design 0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:12.480 as far as I can see, and definitely a more 0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:15.920 assertive approach to routing large dunes. Right. There are big 0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:19.840 fairway contours at Royal Port Rush. It's not it's not 0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:23.800 that kind of playing between the dune ridges approach on 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:26.239 every single hole though. A lot of the holes that 0:54:26.360 --> 0:54:28.759 Royal Port Rush are in these valleys, and part of 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:33.480 that is inevitable on sites with big dunes. This is 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:37.040 often a debate that golf course enthusiasts have with each 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:41.600 other whether big dunes or smaller dunes are better for golf, 0:54:42.200 --> 0:54:45.040 and the argument against having big dunes on a golf 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:48.439 course is that you can't really use them that much. 0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:51.279 You have to for the most part avoid them, or 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:55.480 else the golf course will become non functional. And so 0:54:55.680 --> 0:54:58.239 small dunes can can create a lot of interest because 0:54:58.280 --> 0:55:02.080 you can play any which way over them, whereas at 0:55:02.239 --> 0:55:05.240 Royal Birkdale and to an extent world Port Rush, you're 0:55:05.239 --> 0:55:07.879 a little bit more limited to the valleys. That said, 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:12.960 another interesting comparison with Royal Birkdale. In fact, I think 0:55:13.040 --> 0:55:17.399 the kind of yin to Royal Brokedale's yang is Royal 0:55:17.480 --> 0:55:21.719 Saint George's, where there are really big dunes at one 0:55:21.960 --> 0:55:26.560 end of that property, and the routing choices in that 0:55:26.800 --> 0:55:31.560 section are so bold, right. There's not this avoidance of 0:55:31.719 --> 0:55:35.839 blind shots, there's not this avoidance of huge fairway contours 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.200 or really perched greens that might be considered unfair by 0:55:40.280 --> 0:55:43.040 some players. If you look at the first several holes 0:55:43.280 --> 0:55:46.960 at Royal Saint George's so which travel through such big dunes, 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:51.480 it I think provides a kind of counter example to 0:55:52.320 --> 0:55:57.120 the design philosophy the routing philosophy of Royal Birkdale, and 0:55:57.600 --> 0:55:59.880 I think it also explains why We'real Saint George's is 0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:05.000 not as beloved by competitive golfers as as Royal Birkdale. 0:56:05.120 --> 0:56:08.440 It is St. George's is not afraid of quirk, it's 0:56:08.520 --> 0:56:14.160 not afraid of accusations of unfairness. But to me, it's 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:19.040 thrilling because it actually interacts with the big stuff. It 0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:22.960 doesn't just use the big dunes as penalty or as scenery. 0:56:23.600 --> 0:56:27.520 It brings them into the golf holes. It actually maximizes 0:56:27.640 --> 0:56:31.040 the greatest asset of the property. And that, to me 0:56:31.200 --> 0:56:34.840 is what I really want a golf course to do. 0:56:36.120 --> 0:56:39.400 And so that's I love Royal Saint George's. When I 0:56:39.480 --> 0:56:42.880 played it for the first time last year, I loved 0:56:42.880 --> 0:56:47.239 it far more than I expected I would. And part 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:51.120 of the reason is this is this approach to routing 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:52.040 the golf course. 0:56:54.120 --> 0:56:56.560 No pushback. I think your critiques are valid. I think 0:56:56.600 --> 0:56:59.919 the parts of Brokedale that you don't love makes sense 0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:03.399 to me if you were to I think the only 0:57:04.000 --> 0:57:06.879 somewhat defense I'd offer is that if I think most 0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:09.840 people would put port Rush like miles and miles ahead 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:13.040 of Brokedale, and to me that gap is a little narrower, 0:57:13.160 --> 0:57:17.080 probably than most people might assign it. I don't think 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:20.640 broken is the golf course that port Rush is, but 0:57:21.800 --> 0:57:23.880 I don't find that to be a I don't think 0:57:23.880 --> 0:57:29.000 there's a huge golf between them, huh And why is that? Well? 0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:34.640 I think maybe the port Rush I think some of 0:57:34.680 --> 0:57:38.080 those holes blend together for me personally a little bit. 0:57:38.360 --> 0:57:44.000 And similarly to like it's not. I think the virtues 0:57:44.040 --> 0:57:47.760 of Brokedale, as we've mentioned, are how it tests a 0:57:48.400 --> 0:57:50.320 professional golfer, and I think it does some of that 0:57:50.400 --> 0:57:52.800 a little more effectively than port Rush. There are some 0:57:53.040 --> 0:57:55.880 unbelievable golf holes at port Rush and the fifth out 0:57:55.920 --> 0:57:59.640 by the water like there it has more outstanding golf holes, 0:58:00.000 --> 0:58:01.200 but I think a lot of the holes at port 0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:03.760 Rush kind of in the middle and even to start, 0:58:05.880 --> 0:58:11.280 aren't the badass major championship golfers, and Brokedale I think 0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:15.080 has a little more like from start to finish, commanding 0:58:15.120 --> 0:58:16.960 your attention where it can kind of bite you anywhere. 0:58:17.040 --> 0:58:19.440 So that's something that I like as somebody who watches 0:58:19.880 --> 0:58:22.960 a lot of professional golf. But in terms of one 0:58:23.000 --> 0:58:25.000 that to just walk every day, you know, maybe I'd 0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:27.520 feel a little more positively about a Royal port Rush 0:58:27.520 --> 0:58:27.920 compared to. 0:58:27.920 --> 0:58:29.880 Birkdale, at least using that criteria. 0:58:31.160 --> 0:58:36.600 Gosh, does a test of professional golf have to be boring? No, 0:58:37.000 --> 0:58:40.000 it does not. It does not. It sounds like that's 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:42.720 what we're implying, though, that Royal Birkdale is a great 0:58:42.800 --> 0:58:46.360 test of professional golf precisely because of some of the 0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:48.360 aspects of it that make it kind of boring. 0:58:49.360 --> 0:58:53.720 I think it's more that, unfortunately, with technology, we have 0:58:53.960 --> 0:58:57.880 really outgrown a lot of the great, great designs across 0:58:57.920 --> 0:59:03.400 the world, and if they have been compromised in a 0:59:03.440 --> 0:59:06.680 way that the current dimensions of the game, you can 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:09.320 overpower so many of these golf courses in ways that 0:59:09.360 --> 0:59:11.720 are obvious, like carrying a bunker, but also in ways 0:59:11.760 --> 0:59:13.919 that are less obvious, and you can hit a shot 0:59:13.920 --> 0:59:17.040 three hundred and twenty yards off line you might find 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:20.480 grand stands or something, and then you have a pretty 0:59:20.520 --> 0:59:23.080 easy shot on and so like Saint Andrews, unfortunately, I 0:59:23.120 --> 0:59:26.560 think is a great example where people who love golf courses, 0:59:26.800 --> 0:59:29.200 and I put myself in this category, I know you're 0:59:29.240 --> 0:59:32.640 obviously staunchly in this category, get delighted to watch golf 0:59:32.680 --> 0:59:35.040 at Saint Andrews, and then the shot value doesn't always 0:59:35.080 --> 0:59:38.000 quite line up with how it's intended, and that can 0:59:38.080 --> 0:59:41.360 be to me, that's very disappointing to watch in an 0:59:41.400 --> 0:59:43.840 Open championship venue, or any major venue for that matter. 0:59:43.920 --> 0:59:47.000 So I think, with the exception of basically Augusta, it's 0:59:47.120 --> 0:59:49.680 very hard to find great tests of professional golf that 0:59:49.720 --> 0:59:53.000 are also beautifully designed, and so I think Birkdale, Yeah, 0:59:53.120 --> 0:59:54.440 is it beautifully designed? 0:59:54.560 --> 0:59:54.680 Is that? 0:59:55.200 --> 0:59:56.880 Are there a lot of great golf holes out there? 0:59:56.920 --> 0:59:58.600 I don't think so, but I do think it's a 0:59:58.640 --> 1:00:01.200 really effective test. Now, the number of venues at this 1:00:01.280 --> 1:00:04.880 point that do both, it's very small, and again that's 1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:06.200 not because it's impossible to do. 1:00:06.360 --> 1:00:08.800 It's just because of the current scale of the game. 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:13.440 You know, this is not a well worked out theory 1:00:13.920 --> 1:00:17.880 then I'm about to outline. But I've found myself recently 1:00:18.080 --> 1:00:22.680 wanting to move away from the framework of test when 1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:27.680 it comes to evaluating professional golf venues and more toward 1:00:28.520 --> 1:00:34.120 what makes a place a compelling venue overall for the viewer, 1:00:34.280 --> 1:00:39.000 primarily for the fan, and that doesn't always align with test. 1:00:39.280 --> 1:00:44.280 I don't think, for example, if you take a hole 1:00:44.480 --> 1:00:47.040 like the road hole at Saint Andrews, I don't know 1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:51.760 how the road hole necessarily rates on a test scale. 1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:55.760 But if you ask anybody what holes they want to 1:00:55.880 --> 1:01:00.800 see played in major championship situations, the road hole is 1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:04.040 going to come up. The fifteenth hole at Augusta National 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:07.240 is going to come up. Are these holes really great 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:10.600 tests of professional golf in the sense that they have 1:01:11.160 --> 1:01:14.600 high shot values for each shot and that they really 1:01:14.680 --> 1:01:19.320 identify the best player? Maybe not, but they inject a 1:01:19.400 --> 1:01:22.520 little bit of chaos into the tournament, and I think 1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:25.360 that's part of what people want to see, and that 1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:29.200 element of mystery and chaos and things just being a 1:01:29.280 --> 1:01:31.600 little bit off kilter. Maybe things being a little bit 1:01:31.680 --> 1:01:37.480 unfair is something that I crave in a professional golf venue. 1:01:37.800 --> 1:01:40.600 And I'm not sure that that that fits in with 1:01:40.760 --> 1:01:45.280 the framework of a great examination of golfing ability. But 1:01:45.760 --> 1:01:48.960 certainly I think it's the special sauce that makes certain 1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:54.080 holes so in certain courses so memorable, right, And that's 1:01:54.120 --> 1:01:56.360 something that maybe we're all burkedale acts a little bit there. 1:01:57.280 --> 1:02:00.360 There aren't many holes where I feel like, oh, this 1:02:01.560 --> 1:02:02.120 could get. 1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:06.400 Really weird, in complete agreement with you, and I think 1:02:06.440 --> 1:02:09.200 fifteen at August as an example that is a great 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:13.080 test of professional golf and has that level of quirk 1:02:13.160 --> 1:02:17.080 and things can go awry. I think Tenant Shinnecock and 1:02:17.120 --> 1:02:20.280 I think Shinnacock is one of the premier major championship 1:02:20.360 --> 1:02:24.400 venues in the world, and it has that element of chaos. 1:02:24.560 --> 1:02:28.720 And again ten eleven at Shinnecock, I think are awesome, 1:02:29.200 --> 1:02:32.360 awesome tests of professional golf. I'm in agreement with you 1:02:32.800 --> 1:02:35.880 that Brickdale does not satisfy that criteria, and I do 1:02:36.000 --> 1:02:38.360 not think this is one of the best Open championship venues. 1:02:38.560 --> 1:02:39.640 I would not put this near. 1:02:39.600 --> 1:02:43.680 The top, but it at least satisfies the can you 1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:46.040 just get up and hit it wherever? No, you cannot, 1:02:46.200 --> 1:02:50.560 And unfortunately, there are so many venues now that fail 1:02:50.640 --> 1:02:52.880 to satisfy that criteria, and I think that is where 1:02:52.920 --> 1:02:55.600 my frustration comes from that if we were to significantly 1:02:56.040 --> 1:02:58.480 scale back the game, a lot of the places that 1:02:58.640 --> 1:03:01.959 you take delight in and have their quirk, we would 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:05.040 actually allow that quirk to shine versus muting it because 1:03:05.040 --> 1:03:07.680 you can just overpower it. So I think it's a 1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:10.240 much more of a commentary on the state of the 1:03:10.280 --> 1:03:13.120 scale of the game than it is appreciating the level 1:03:13.200 --> 1:03:14.920 of fairness that Birkdale exacts. 1:03:15.440 --> 1:03:19.240 Yeah, I'm with you there. But you know, Royal Birkdale 1:03:19.280 --> 1:03:21.720 has its place in the Open ROTA when you put 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:25.919 it that way, right alongside the old course in Royal 1:03:26.000 --> 1:03:29.640 Saint George's and even you know some holes at Hoylake. 1:03:31.360 --> 1:03:34.600 Royal Birkdale has its identity, it has its position on 1:03:34.760 --> 1:03:39.000 the RODA, and I think it's probably good that the 1:03:39.120 --> 1:03:43.800 RODA features a course like Royal Birkdale, which is, you know, 1:03:43.960 --> 1:03:46.880 just has a different character than most of the kind 1:03:46.880 --> 1:03:51.680 of older links courses that where the Open Championship is held. 1:03:52.240 --> 1:03:55.040 And just quickly, this isn't Tory Pines, Like I think 1:03:55.080 --> 1:03:57.920 Tory Pines is the kind of rote like people say 1:03:57.960 --> 1:03:59.920 it's a good test, but sure not a well to 1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:02.360 designed golf course. I think it's kind of common sentiment 1:04:02.440 --> 1:04:05.080 at this point. I would just contend that Brokedale is 1:04:05.120 --> 1:04:07.360 more going on than somewhere like Tory Pines. 1:04:07.880 --> 1:04:11.400 Yeah. Well, you often bring up the subject of wide 1:04:11.520 --> 1:04:15.439 misses when we talk about Tory Pines, where those wide 1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:19.880 misses really really aren't punished very severely compared to narrow misses, 1:04:20.080 --> 1:04:23.520 and that flattens the competition in some ways and makes 1:04:23.560 --> 1:04:27.439 it less satisfying. You know, it doesn't feel like maybe 1:04:27.480 --> 1:04:31.400 we've identified the best player consistently at Tory Pines. Although 1:04:31.440 --> 1:04:34.760 the winners there have been have been all stars, two degree, 1:04:35.960 --> 1:04:39.919 Royal Birkdale is there's certainly something more satisfying about seeing 1:04:39.960 --> 1:04:43.200 a golfer conquer Royal Birkdale. You know that they've you 1:04:43.280 --> 1:04:45.040 know that they've done a good job. And honestly, the 1:04:45.160 --> 1:04:49.400 roster of winners at Birkdale testifies to that one of 1:04:49.480 --> 1:04:53.240 the best lists of winners I think that any course 1:04:53.280 --> 1:04:56.000 can claim, and so that's that's something that I think 1:04:56.040 --> 1:05:01.400 the club can rightfully be proud of. All Right, let's 1:05:01.440 --> 1:05:04.280 talk a little bit about the renovation work now here. 1:05:04.520 --> 1:05:07.640 Toward the end of the podcast, we've gone through the 1:05:07.720 --> 1:05:10.480 elements of the golf course, given some takes on how 1:05:10.520 --> 1:05:13.400 we think it'll play and just what we make of 1:05:13.520 --> 1:05:17.520 the golf course architecture there in general. There have been 1:05:17.640 --> 1:05:22.240 some changes recently at Royal Birkdale, carried out by McKenzie 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:26.200 and Ebert. The club hired mackenzie and Ebert in twenty 1:05:26.280 --> 1:05:30.720 twenty two specifically to prepare the course for this year's Open, 1:05:30.840 --> 1:05:34.320 so the changes they made were targeted at Championship Golf 1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:37.640 in case we haven't covered this before. Mackenzie and Ebert 1:05:37.840 --> 1:05:41.440 is a partnership between Tom McKenzie and Martin Ebert. On 1:05:41.600 --> 1:05:44.480 each of their projects, one of them takes the lead. 1:05:45.080 --> 1:05:49.400 At Royal Birkdale, Tom McKenzie was the lead architect, but 1:05:49.680 --> 1:05:54.440 as a firm, Mackenzie and Ebert are the undisputed Open 1:05:54.560 --> 1:05:59.479 Championship doctors. They now consult at all of the current 1:05:59.600 --> 1:06:03.000 Open RN golf courses, including the old course at Saint Andrew's, 1:06:03.400 --> 1:06:07.200 so they are incredibly dominant in this particular domain of 1:06:07.320 --> 1:06:11.480 golf architecture. Their work at Royal Birkdale was carried out 1:06:11.560 --> 1:06:16.400 between twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five, and the 1:06:16.560 --> 1:06:22.160 changes were extensive. Tom McKenzie made alterations to every single 1:06:22.240 --> 1:06:25.000 hole at Royal Birkdale. I'm not going to go through 1:06:25.360 --> 1:06:28.240 all of those changes right now, but one of the 1:06:28.360 --> 1:06:32.720 major goals of the renovation was to create more variety 1:06:32.840 --> 1:06:36.960 in the par three's. Previously, three of the four par 1:06:37.040 --> 1:06:40.800 three's at Royal Birkdale basically played in the same direction, 1:06:41.440 --> 1:06:43.840 and then the other par three often required the same 1:06:43.960 --> 1:06:47.320 club as the other par three's in certain wind conditions. 1:06:47.920 --> 1:06:51.320 So the idea was to just get more variety in 1:06:51.440 --> 1:06:54.160 the t shots there, and the way that they did 1:06:54.240 --> 1:06:59.080 that was to eliminate the old fourteenth hole and then 1:06:59.160 --> 1:07:03.800 to create a new par three playing back toward the 1:07:03.920 --> 1:07:08.360 clubhouse between what used to be the fifteenth and sixteenth holes. 1:07:09.720 --> 1:07:14.680 So the old fourteenth hole happened to kind of sit 1:07:14.760 --> 1:07:19.120 between the clubhouse and the practice ground. Eliminating that hole 1:07:19.720 --> 1:07:24.280 allows better access to that big practice area and driving 1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:28.720 range which will be during the Open Championship, a fan village, 1:07:29.320 --> 1:07:33.120 So this has been an infrastructural improvement as well as 1:07:33.360 --> 1:07:36.360 an improvement in the kind of directions and lengths of 1:07:36.400 --> 1:07:37.160 the par threes. 1:07:38.120 --> 1:07:40.600 And just to clarify it, yeah, what understanding is the 1:07:40.680 --> 1:07:44.120 fourteenth green that they used to have has just been 1:07:44.200 --> 1:07:46.760 repurposed as the short ging facility. So it's kind of 1:07:46.800 --> 1:07:50.240 sitting there like it was the old fourteenth hole, but 1:07:50.360 --> 1:07:52.160 it is now a short ging facility. 1:07:52.040 --> 1:07:54.520 And they can use it in the winter or something 1:07:54.640 --> 1:07:56.600 as a part three. They can still play it as 1:07:56.640 --> 1:07:59.800 a golf hole, but you know, basically the old fourteenth 1:07:59.800 --> 1:08:03.880 hole was kind of blocking access to that area. You know, 1:08:04.040 --> 1:08:06.160 now it's just a little bit more open there and 1:08:06.600 --> 1:08:09.200 the fan village, which is a big priority in any 1:08:09.240 --> 1:08:11.720 Open Championship these days is going to be a bit 1:08:11.800 --> 1:08:15.800 more easily accessible from the clubhouse than it would have 1:08:15.920 --> 1:08:22.840 been otherwise. So this new par three, the fifteenth hole, 1:08:24.000 --> 1:08:28.080 brand new hole designed by Mackenzie and Ebert, plays back 1:08:28.120 --> 1:08:31.439 toward the clubhouse, okay, in a different direction from the 1:08:31.560 --> 1:08:35.560 rest of the par three's, And then in order to 1:08:35.920 --> 1:08:40.880 have roomed for that par three, the current fourteenth hole 1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:45.360 had to be kind of shifted toward what is now 1:08:45.760 --> 1:08:49.240 the fan village. So you know, again, Mackenzie and Ebert 1:08:49.640 --> 1:08:53.920 designed and built a new fourteenth hole. Okay, So we 1:08:54.000 --> 1:08:56.600 have a new fourteenth, we have a new fifteenth, and 1:08:56.680 --> 1:09:00.519 from there the course plays home sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen 1:09:01.200 --> 1:09:03.679 roughly like it used to. So that is the single 1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:08.160 biggest change. Two new golf holes in that critical section 1:09:08.880 --> 1:09:13.040 of the back nine. The other really major change was 1:09:13.240 --> 1:09:16.240 rebuilding the fifth hole, which is a short par four. 1:09:17.160 --> 1:09:20.600 Basically it was not a very well respected hole, and 1:09:21.040 --> 1:09:24.080 Mackenzie and Ebert designed and built a new one in 1:09:24.560 --> 1:09:28.320 the same location. So those are the biggest differences, I think, 1:09:28.439 --> 1:09:33.960 Joseph that people will notice between the twenty seventeen Open 1:09:34.040 --> 1:09:38.840 Championship version of Royal Birkdale and the twenty twenty sixth version. 1:09:39.640 --> 1:09:41.799 Where do you want to go with this? What changes 1:09:41.880 --> 1:09:44.559 did you find the most interesting? What did you make 1:09:44.600 --> 1:09:44.880 of them? 1:09:45.840 --> 1:09:48.599 I think you are appropriately highlighting the most relevant changes. 1:09:48.840 --> 1:09:52.360 So like fourteen, now the par five is going to 1:09:52.400 --> 1:09:54.920 play if they want, like six hundred yards and back 1:09:54.960 --> 1:09:56.800 into the wind, and I believe it was five point 1:09:56.800 --> 1:10:00.840 fifty before, so there's some lengthening there. Fifteen is the 1:10:01.040 --> 1:10:03.559 entirely new part three. It's two hundred and forty yards 1:10:03.600 --> 1:10:07.519 from the back to very very difficult shot and completely 1:10:07.600 --> 1:10:11.240 different par three than what existed before. I understand the 1:10:12.160 --> 1:10:14.120 not wanting to have the same club in your hands 1:10:14.160 --> 1:10:16.560 four times, potentially wanting a little more variety. So that 1:10:16.760 --> 1:10:20.479 is the need that I guess I'll use need in quotes, 1:10:20.520 --> 1:10:23.040 but that's why they the impetus for that change. 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:24.479 And then five is totally different. 1:10:24.640 --> 1:10:24.880 Five. 1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:29.519 I would agree that the whole before was not particularly good. 1:10:29.680 --> 1:10:32.840 It was just a short four that didn't There was 1:10:32.920 --> 1:10:36.040 no there were no bunkers in any of the landing 1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:38.280 areas off the tee. I think it was about three 1:10:38.360 --> 1:10:41.000 hundred and twenty yards before and the length hasn't changed much. 1:10:41.080 --> 1:10:44.519 But now there's a smattering of bunkers up by the 1:10:44.600 --> 1:10:47.400 green and a fairway bunker that kind of protects the 1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:53.120 left side. The other change on five that will probably 1:10:53.200 --> 1:10:55.640 just like kind of fly completely under the dar, but 1:10:55.720 --> 1:10:58.080 you might find interesting, Garrett is a pretty big dune 1:10:58.560 --> 1:11:01.320 on the right that obscured the view to the green 1:11:02.240 --> 1:11:04.920 was flattened. And I don't know all the reasons for that, 1:11:05.040 --> 1:11:07.200 or if it was an artificial or natural dune before, 1:11:07.320 --> 1:11:09.880 but like that was probably the one area where there 1:11:09.960 --> 1:11:11.760 was a blind shot if you wanted to go for 1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:12.160 the green. 1:11:12.200 --> 1:11:13.880 It was kind of obscuring the whole. 1:11:13.920 --> 1:11:15.160 I don't know if that was the impetus for the 1:11:15.280 --> 1:11:17.240 change and not wanting to have any blind shots, but 1:11:18.120 --> 1:11:19.960 I just found that kind of amusing that I've sticked 1:11:20.000 --> 1:11:22.120 the one quirk kind of to the golf course. 1:11:22.160 --> 1:11:25.080 It is no longer there. Yeah. Well, the other quirk 1:11:25.240 --> 1:11:28.280 was that eighteen had two sets of tease and was 1:11:28.360 --> 1:11:30.720 kind of had a double fairway at the start of 1:11:30.760 --> 1:11:33.960 the fairway where you would play into the hole from 1:11:34.040 --> 1:11:37.599 different directions, And the thought there was that this hole 1:11:37.640 --> 1:11:40.760 had a schizophrenic identity and they wanted to unify it 1:11:40.880 --> 1:11:42.880 around one set of tees, So they kept the left 1:11:42.920 --> 1:11:46.000 setatees where the whole plays a little bit straighter, and 1:11:47.160 --> 1:11:48.800 that was no other quirk of the golf course that 1:11:48.800 --> 1:11:51.400 has gone away. I'm not necessarily saying that that was 1:11:51.520 --> 1:11:54.360 like the coolest thing or that it was genius design 1:11:54.479 --> 1:11:57.240 or anything like that, but they have taken that away 1:11:57.720 --> 1:12:01.519 as well. Yeah, taking the blind shot on five away. 1:12:01.920 --> 1:12:04.240 What do you make of the new fifth hole? I mean, 1:12:04.360 --> 1:12:07.200 just looking at it, like in terms of strategy, like 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:10.559 not bad, you know, I don't I kind of see 1:12:10.600 --> 1:12:12.840 what they're going for. I guess pushing up towards the 1:12:12.880 --> 1:12:15.920 green on the short part four is feels a little 1:12:15.920 --> 1:12:19.040 bit risky, or you know, the landing zone is a 1:12:19.080 --> 1:12:21.200 little bit more obscured. You can kind of lay up 1:12:21.200 --> 1:12:22.840 to the left a bit. I mean, what did you 1:12:22.880 --> 1:12:23.760 make of the new fifth hole? 1:12:24.960 --> 1:12:26.280 When I make of the fifth hole is what I 1:12:26.360 --> 1:12:29.960 make of the changes on net overall, Garrett, which is, 1:12:30.280 --> 1:12:34.439 I feel like they've replaced holes, at least in the 1:12:34.520 --> 1:12:38.280 changes that they've made that weren't particularly sacred or special before, 1:12:38.439 --> 1:12:41.639 with holes that still aren't necessarily that great a golf 1:12:41.680 --> 1:12:44.400 holes or special or sacred now. And I think the 1:12:44.439 --> 1:12:47.200 fifth hole before it was weak, and so this is 1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:48.879 an upgrade almost by default. 1:12:49.040 --> 1:12:51.080 I still don't really like this golf hole. I think 1:12:51.120 --> 1:12:52.040 it looks really weird. 1:12:52.520 --> 1:12:55.600 That's a lot of rumpling of the fairways to the 1:12:55.720 --> 1:12:58.639 right of the green that looks really artificial and funk. 1:12:58.960 --> 1:13:01.280 As soon as I saw that, I saw some early 1:13:01.880 --> 1:13:06.519 pictures of this, maybe even in twenty twenty four when 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:09.800 they executed this shaping in the run up to the green. 1:13:09.960 --> 1:13:15.960 Basically it's very lumpy, bumpy, but doesn't really look natural 1:13:16.040 --> 1:13:18.639 because it's a bit too uniform, and you don't really 1:13:18.720 --> 1:13:21.799 see that elsewhere at Royal Birkdale because, as we've discussed extensively, 1:13:21.840 --> 1:13:24.040 the fairways are fairly flat, and so I'm not sure 1:13:24.120 --> 1:13:29.360 why they made this decision to create artificial mounds around 1:13:29.400 --> 1:13:31.360 this set of bunkers that kind of runs up to 1:13:31.400 --> 1:13:31.720 the green. 1:13:32.840 --> 1:13:34.640 It's just kind of a weird, a little bit of 1:13:34.640 --> 1:13:39.880 a clunky, awkward golf hole to me. It's again, before 1:13:40.000 --> 1:13:41.840 I don't think it was a good golf hole, but now, like, 1:13:41.920 --> 1:13:44.680 if you want to go for the green straight back 1:13:44.720 --> 1:13:46.840 into the wind, you're gonna have to hit something. It's 1:13:46.920 --> 1:13:49.639 like three hundred ish yards to the front of the green, 1:13:50.200 --> 1:13:51.960 but there's nowhere really for you to put the ball, 1:13:52.080 --> 1:13:54.479 Like there's bunkers all down the right side that you're 1:13:54.479 --> 1:13:56.240 going to end up in. There's like a pretty narrow 1:13:57.760 --> 1:14:01.800 fifteen ishuyard wide gap if you go let the left 1:14:01.840 --> 1:14:03.680 side of the green that you could hit something up there. 1:14:03.680 --> 1:14:05.160 But I think you're gonna see most guys when the 1:14:05.240 --> 1:14:07.960 wind is up, just hitting iron into the fairway, and 1:14:08.040 --> 1:14:11.040 that iron is harder now, like there is a fairway 1:14:11.080 --> 1:14:13.599 bunker protecting the left side of it. It's not as 1:14:13.680 --> 1:14:15.600 thoughtless off of the tee. So I think from an 1:14:15.640 --> 1:14:19.599 execution standpoint or the golfer what they need to execute, 1:14:20.439 --> 1:14:22.720 the shot value has been enhanced and it is a 1:14:22.840 --> 1:14:25.200 more challenging golf hole. I still think it looks weird 1:14:25.720 --> 1:14:27.880 and I don't think it's a great hole now, But 1:14:28.479 --> 1:14:30.439 again that's kind of how I feel about the changes 1:14:30.479 --> 1:14:32.800 overall that they made. I'm pretty neutral on them. I 1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:36.519 think I understand the rationale for them. I don't think 1:14:36.520 --> 1:14:39.080 they blew up anything sacred, and I think in a 1:14:39.160 --> 1:14:42.639 couple spots things look a little weird. Left of sixteen 1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:46.120 green is another spot that I immediately clocked as I 1:14:46.240 --> 1:14:48.719 was playing. I was like they took out two bunkers 1:14:48.760 --> 1:14:51.800 and you can tell like it looks really funky left 1:14:51.840 --> 1:14:54.360 of the sixteen green, like these two big swales where 1:14:54.360 --> 1:14:57.000 the bunkers used to be. But overall, I think a 1:14:57.040 --> 1:14:59.720 lot of the changes were fine. I'm not offended by 1:14:59.720 --> 1:15:02.240 the fit fifteenth part three that that one is going 1:15:02.320 --> 1:15:06.800 to be highly scrutinized next week during the Open. It 1:15:06.880 --> 1:15:08.880 didn't bother I think it's fine. I think it's a 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:11.960 pretty good golf hol for pros. So overall, I think 1:15:12.000 --> 1:15:15.679 on net I rate out somewhere neutrallly on all the changes. 1:15:17.040 --> 1:15:21.439 You know, because of rural Brookdale's history as a golf 1:15:21.520 --> 1:15:25.080 course that was meant to host tournaments and that never 1:15:25.280 --> 1:15:29.960 really had precious golf architecture to begin with, I find 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:33.920 myself challenged to get too worked up about any of this, 1:15:34.320 --> 1:15:37.200 you know, as far as I'm concerned, I think I 1:15:37.320 --> 1:15:42.000 come down where you do. It's fine. It could be better. Yeah, 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:45.599 the architecture could be better, the shaping could be better, 1:15:45.720 --> 1:15:48.439 the tie ins with the natural environment could be better. 1:15:48.520 --> 1:15:50.800 The strategies could be more interesting, the greens could be 1:15:50.840 --> 1:15:54.160 more interesting. All of this. But it's not like they're 1:15:54.240 --> 1:15:58.599 running roughshod over Harry Colt or Thoms Simpson greens here, 1:15:58.920 --> 1:16:01.400 you know, And that's what it really raises my hackles 1:16:01.520 --> 1:16:05.880 with new work at places like Royal Liverpool or if 1:16:05.920 --> 1:16:08.639 they were to do anything God forbid to the older 1:16:08.720 --> 1:16:11.920 greens at Royal Saint George's, you know, that's where that's 1:16:11.960 --> 1:16:14.800 where I'd get I'd get kind of angry. But with 1:16:14.920 --> 1:16:17.680 World Birkdale that this has been the nature of the 1:16:17.760 --> 1:16:19.840 course from the beginning. You know, they kind of make 1:16:20.680 --> 1:16:23.880 make some changes for each Open Championship it's been in 1:16:23.880 --> 1:16:26.559 a course has been in a continual state of flux 1:16:27.200 --> 1:16:31.360 basically from the time that the club moved to the 1:16:31.400 --> 1:16:34.880 stretch of Doomland to the current day. They're always making 1:16:34.960 --> 1:16:39.320 these little adjustments. Do I think that the you know, 1:16:39.400 --> 1:16:42.560 from Afar, does the golf course design look like it 1:16:42.720 --> 1:16:46.000 falls short of the kind of best design work that's 1:16:46.040 --> 1:16:49.920 being done today. Absolutely, yes, But I'm sure that it 1:16:50.000 --> 1:16:54.000 will be a fine Open Championship venue, that it will 1:16:54.040 --> 1:16:57.240 be challenging, that it will be a test, and if 1:16:57.280 --> 1:16:59.519 the wind is up, it's going to be incredibly entertaining 1:16:59.600 --> 1:17:04.800 because you know, wind and linksland terrain is an invincible 1:17:04.960 --> 1:17:08.720 combination and no matter what the golf architecture on the 1:17:08.760 --> 1:17:12.240 ground is, that would be interesting. So hoping for wind 1:17:12.680 --> 1:17:15.880 that's always going to make an exciting tournament. So yeah, 1:17:15.960 --> 1:17:18.799 I'm I'm I'm kind of kind of with you on that, Joseph. 1:17:18.840 --> 1:17:21.560 I wonder if there are any are there any particular 1:17:21.640 --> 1:17:27.880 holes that you're especially excited to see or or even 1:17:28.040 --> 1:17:31.240 just like a little more excited than then you are 1:17:31.320 --> 1:17:33.959 to see the rest of the holes, because as we've established, 1:17:34.000 --> 1:17:38.320 there aren't any particular huge highs. There aren't high highs 1:17:38.560 --> 1:17:41.200 at Royal Birkedown necessarily, But are there some holes that 1:17:41.800 --> 1:17:43.080 you think people should keep an eye on? 1:17:43.880 --> 1:17:45.960 Yes, and sorry, just quickly on the changes. 1:17:45.960 --> 1:17:47.720 I think the other thing we should highlight is that 1:17:48.040 --> 1:17:50.320 a lot of these it's a lot of these holes 1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:51.920 are at sea level, and there was a there was 1:17:51.960 --> 1:17:54.880 a legitimate flooding issue with a lot of these holes. 1:17:54.920 --> 1:17:56.519 And so I think a lot of the bunkers, especially 1:17:56.520 --> 1:17:59.400 in the winter, like the Seventh Green, they have now raised, 1:17:59.760 --> 1:18:01.880 and I mean I think that hole is just as 1:18:01.920 --> 1:18:03.080 good or if not better now, and. 1:18:03.080 --> 1:18:04.960 There was actually a practical need for some of it, 1:18:05.080 --> 1:18:06.080 so I wouldn't be called that. 1:18:06.400 --> 1:18:08.560 I think This is part of the history of the 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:10.920 routing of the golf course where it was routed through 1:18:11.160 --> 1:18:14.960 kind of what are called dune slacks, right, basically waterways 1:18:15.000 --> 1:18:18.640 between the tall dunes. Obviously, that's going to create some 1:18:18.800 --> 1:18:21.640 drainage issues and probably explains why a lot of the 1:18:21.680 --> 1:18:24.080 greens are you know, a little bit built up from 1:18:24.280 --> 1:18:28.160 the terrain in some slightly repetitive ways. You know, that's 1:18:28.280 --> 1:18:32.400 that's good for drainage. So yeah, good note there golf 1:18:32.439 --> 1:18:33.920 holes that you want to keep an eye on. 1:18:34.200 --> 1:18:37.240 Yeah, I mean five and fifteen people should monitor because 1:18:37.240 --> 1:18:40.200 those are brand new ones, as is fourteen. But I 1:18:40.280 --> 1:18:43.000 think forming an opinion will be interesting. It'll be interesting 1:18:43.040 --> 1:18:45.120 to hear what other people say. But I would say 1:18:45.120 --> 1:18:48.760 the part three's in general, I would just I would 1:18:48.800 --> 1:18:51.559 be excited to watch. There's not going to be carnage. 1:18:51.600 --> 1:18:54.840 There's no like postage stamp hole. But they're just very 1:18:54.920 --> 1:18:58.800 difficult shots. And so I think like seven and twelve, 1:18:58.880 --> 1:19:00.560 you're going to get a hard win off of the 1:19:00.720 --> 1:19:04.800 right and seeing who has that shot, whether they hold 1:19:04.880 --> 1:19:07.080 up some kind of cut, if they're alrighty into the wind, 1:19:07.880 --> 1:19:09.840 can you start a shot far right enough when the 1:19:09.880 --> 1:19:13.320 wind is significant like you really do have the golf 1:19:13.360 --> 1:19:16.400 course is exposed, like you've got to hit pure iron 1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:18.559 shots that really play the wind. 1:19:18.720 --> 1:19:20.560 So I think those are interesting to keep an eye on. 1:19:21.439 --> 1:19:24.519 One right off the top, maybe not the most interesting 1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:27.559 golf hole in the world, but again there's ob right 1:19:27.720 --> 1:19:29.680 and there's a hard wind off of your left when 1:19:29.680 --> 1:19:32.960 the wind is up. So no, there's not one hole 1:19:32.960 --> 1:19:35.240 in particular that I think people need to be a 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:37.240 fixed to their TV when it comes on. But I 1:19:37.280 --> 1:19:41.280 think overall watching shots get smacked out of the air 1:19:41.360 --> 1:19:43.240 and seeing who can flight their ball and hit a 1:19:43.320 --> 1:19:47.599 pure iron shot that is basically present on every hole 1:19:47.640 --> 1:19:48.920 when the wind is up, and I think that's the 1:19:48.960 --> 1:19:50.559 main thing to get excited for him to watch. Who 1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:52.640 are some of these frauds that can't do that, that 1:19:52.800 --> 1:19:54.800 just hit it way up into the air because it 1:19:54.880 --> 1:19:56.000 does not work out there. 1:19:56.720 --> 1:20:00.880 Yeah, a little bit of justice for the driving range rats, 1:20:00.920 --> 1:20:01.360 I suppose. 1:20:01.920 --> 1:20:03.280 Yeah, yeah, precisely. 1:20:04.560 --> 1:20:07.479 A couple of holes that you know, again jumped out 1:20:07.520 --> 1:20:11.280 to me just looking at photos and kind of trying 1:20:11.320 --> 1:20:14.479 to piece together how players would approach the holes. The 1:20:14.560 --> 1:20:17.519 eleventh hole, you know, kind of cool angles off the 1:20:17.560 --> 1:20:21.759 tee dog leg par four. The fairway bunkers define different 1:20:21.880 --> 1:20:25.720 landing zones and and I would expect different players to 1:20:25.840 --> 1:20:29.920 choose different landing zones depending on wind conditions. The green 1:20:30.080 --> 1:20:32.519 is oriented to the inside of the dog leg, a 1:20:32.560 --> 1:20:35.120 little bit offset from the shape of the fairway, in 1:20:35.200 --> 1:20:38.439 a way that's slightly unusual at Royal Burkedale. So eleven 1:20:38.560 --> 1:20:41.000 jumps out to me as you know, a nicely executed 1:20:41.439 --> 1:20:44.479 dog leg par four hole. And then the other one 1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:47.879 that I'm looking forward to seeing and that I remember 1:20:48.080 --> 1:20:51.880 being pretty entertaining in twenty seventeen is the seventeenth hole 1:20:52.280 --> 1:20:55.200 at part five. Coming home, you know, you can get 1:20:55.200 --> 1:20:58.320 aggressive over the big dune on the left for a 1:20:58.439 --> 1:21:01.040 chance of reaching the green. And two and then the 1:21:01.120 --> 1:21:03.400 green itself, you know, a little bit out of character 1:21:03.520 --> 1:21:05.479 with the rest of the golf course. It was built 1:21:05.560 --> 1:21:09.400 by Martin Hawtree back in the nineties, but very long, 1:21:09.840 --> 1:21:14.320 undulating green that introduces a different flavor to Royal Birkdale. 1:21:14.360 --> 1:21:18.240 And you know, in isolation, considered as as its own hole. 1:21:18.479 --> 1:21:21.000 And you know, putting aside the concern about the fact 1:21:21.000 --> 1:21:23.479 that this green is is not like the other greens 1:21:23.640 --> 1:21:26.240 at roll Birkedale, I think it should be should be 1:21:26.320 --> 1:21:30.160 fairly fun to watch players navigate that green on the 1:21:30.200 --> 1:21:34.080 way home with a potential shot at the Open Championship. 1:21:34.160 --> 1:21:36.360 So eleven and seventeen are kind of the holes that 1:21:36.439 --> 1:21:36.960 jump out to me. 1:21:37.280 --> 1:21:39.360 Six is also a pretty cool tea shot. I'd call 1:21:39.439 --> 1:21:39.720 that out. 1:21:39.800 --> 1:21:41.840 It's a par five for member play, but they play 1:21:41.840 --> 1:21:45.280 it as a part four, and there's a bunker down 1:21:45.360 --> 1:21:47.360 the right and a bunker down the left as it 1:21:47.439 --> 1:21:49.200 dog legs to the right, and seeing which guys try 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:50.559 to take it over that dog leg. 1:21:51.000 --> 1:21:53.360 It's narrow. That fairway gets really narrow. 1:21:53.640 --> 1:21:54.240 Rory did it. 1:21:54.520 --> 1:21:57.800 I was rewatching twenty seventeen. He just bombed it over 1:21:57.840 --> 1:22:00.960 the corner. But it's only like seventeen eighteen yards wide, 1:22:01.360 --> 1:22:03.840 and that's one of the very few areas on the 1:22:03.880 --> 1:22:06.360 golf course that has any water. There's a little water 1:22:06.479 --> 1:22:08.360 hazard that runs down the left side and you can 1:22:08.439 --> 1:22:11.240 bounce through the fairway through a little bit of fescue 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:13.719 if it's got some pace on it, into that water hazard. 1:22:13.760 --> 1:22:15.599 So I think that's actually a really good t shot 1:22:15.640 --> 1:22:16.160 for these guys. 1:22:16.600 --> 1:22:19.760 Cool. Yeah. I mean, if there is strategic interest at 1:22:19.840 --> 1:22:23.759 Royal Birkdale, if there are angles to consider, then often 1:22:23.800 --> 1:22:27.240 it is on these dog leg holes where you have 1:22:27.400 --> 1:22:29.240 the option of taking it over the corner of the 1:22:29.320 --> 1:22:32.200 dog leg and trying to hit a fairway that's oriented 1:22:32.280 --> 1:22:35.679 on a diagonal in relation to the line of play. 1:22:36.280 --> 1:22:39.000 You know. I think that there will be some pros 1:22:39.200 --> 1:22:42.760 who kind of appreciate that there is a legitimate question 1:22:43.080 --> 1:22:45.320 on a lot of tea's at Royal Birkdale whether you 1:22:46.000 --> 1:22:48.880 air out a driver or take a shorter club, and 1:22:49.040 --> 1:22:50.760 I think for that reason that there will be some 1:22:50.880 --> 1:22:53.519 pros who maintain that, yeah, this is a strategic golf 1:22:53.600 --> 1:22:55.160 course because I think that's how a lot of pros 1:22:55.320 --> 1:22:58.639 understand strategy. Is this a hole where I'm actually being 1:22:58.720 --> 1:23:01.240 persuaded to take driver out of my hands. There might 1:23:01.280 --> 1:23:03.400 be a couple of places at royld Brookdale that they 1:23:03.560 --> 1:23:07.080 do that, which I think will register as interesting to 1:23:07.160 --> 1:23:10.960 the pros, even if it's you know, a little bit 1:23:11.040 --> 1:23:15.200 less interesting on the whole for viewers compared to other 1:23:15.280 --> 1:23:16.840 things that could be going on on the golf course. 1:23:17.360 --> 1:23:19.519 And how that club choye interact with trajectory I think 1:23:19.600 --> 1:23:21.920 is really important because some of the golfers that they 1:23:21.960 --> 1:23:25.400 can hit something flighted down like a hard teed down driver. 1:23:25.600 --> 1:23:27.599 That changes the calculus a little bit. 1:23:27.680 --> 1:23:29.880 And the wind is just such a significant part of 1:23:29.920 --> 1:23:32.120 this test that I think that's an integral part of 1:23:32.200 --> 1:23:33.120 that off the tea decision. 1:23:33.439 --> 1:23:36.040 Yeah, I wouldn't be surprising to see a player do 1:23:36.200 --> 1:23:39.479 really well in this tournament hitting a driving iron off 1:23:39.479 --> 1:23:41.360 the tee, like just kind of trying to bully the 1:23:41.400 --> 1:23:45.519 course with a low trajectory accurate driving iron like Brooks 1:23:45.560 --> 1:23:49.920 Tepka did at Chinnacok Hills in twenty eighteen. Certainly would 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:53.360 not be surprising to see that happen. And of course 1:23:53.479 --> 1:23:55.360 wind is the X factor here. If we get wind 1:23:55.360 --> 1:23:58.760 at this tournament, you know, basically everything that I've said 1:23:59.000 --> 1:24:01.599 in my critis of the golf course and that you've 1:24:01.600 --> 1:24:04.880 said in your critiques is almost rendered irrelevant, right, I mean, 1:24:04.920 --> 1:24:07.040 it's just going to be It just be so fun 1:24:07.479 --> 1:24:10.120 to see this course played in the wind. You know, 1:24:10.200 --> 1:24:12.920 good golf architecture is always a plus. It's never it 1:24:13.040 --> 1:24:17.080 never goes a miss. But the biggest, the biggest factor 1:24:17.320 --> 1:24:19.840 is the combination of wind and firmness. If we get 1:24:19.920 --> 1:24:23.360 that at this Open Championship, at any Open Championship, we 1:24:23.479 --> 1:24:25.200 are going to have fun. So I'm looking forward to 1:24:25.280 --> 1:24:27.879 the tournament. Joseph, thank you for coming on the podcast. 1:24:27.960 --> 1:24:30.720 Really appreciate your perspective. Thank you for traveling out there 1:24:31.160 --> 1:24:33.080 and actually seeing the golf course so that we can 1:24:33.160 --> 1:24:36.520 talk about it in an in depth way on this podcast. 1:24:36.680 --> 1:24:37.200 Thanks so much. 1:24:37.479 --> 1:24:39.680 Yeah, I want to sacrifice to travel over there and 1:24:39.800 --> 1:24:44.120 play it. Thanks Gary, always job. We have always enjoyed 1:24:44.160 --> 1:24:46.000 talking golf courses with you. Yeah, it'll be It'll be 1:24:46.000 --> 1:24:48.599 great to see what people think of the course. I'm 1:24:48.640 --> 1:24:51.280 interested in what the public perception is of Birkdale, but 1:24:51.840 --> 1:24:53.280 it was a pleasure to talk about it with you. 1:24:53.840 --> 1:24:56.920 Absolutely. Make sure to follow Joseph's work this week and 1:24:57.280 --> 1:24:59.880 next week for the Open Championship. He's going to have 1:25:00.000 --> 1:25:09.519 some good stuff coming up, all right. This episode of 1:25:09.600 --> 1:25:14.280 Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam. Thank you Will. 1:25:15.080 --> 1:25:18.519 If you've been enjoying what we've been doing on Designing Golf, 1:25:18.640 --> 1:25:20.880 I can guarantee that you would love what we're doing 1:25:21.400 --> 1:25:24.040 in Frida Egg Golf Club. Go to the Frida Egg 1:25:24.080 --> 1:25:28.639 dot com slash membership to see what FEGC is all about. 1:25:29.080 --> 1:25:33.280 But basically it's Frida Egg Golf's membership. It's one hundred 1:25:33.280 --> 1:25:36.120 and twenty dollars a year and with your membership you 1:25:36.280 --> 1:25:40.720 get a number of wonderful things, including exclusive content like 1:25:40.840 --> 1:25:45.479 our pretty extensive course profile library. 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