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Speaker 1: The pros love Royal Birkdale Golf Club, the upcoming site

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Speaker 1: of the Open Championship, but do we love it. That's

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about today with my colleague Joseph Lmania.

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Speaker 1: I'm Garrett Morrison and this is Designing Golf. Joseph Almania

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Speaker 1: is here. Joseph is a writer for Friday Golf, focusing

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Speaker 1: mostly on the professional game and the courses where high

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Speaker 1: level tournaments are played. And you, Joseph just got back

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Speaker 1: from a visit to Royal Birkdale. How was your trip.

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Speaker 2: It was a great trip, Garrett. Yeah, I played Royal

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Speaker 2: Birkdale and Royallytham and St Anne's two very different golf courses,

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Speaker 2: but extremely useful to have that context about Brickdale in

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Speaker 2: advance of this Open Championship. So excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Love talking golf courses with you, So eager to get

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I love talking golf courses with you as well.

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Speaker 1: Always interesting stuff comes up. Yeah, very cool trip that

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Speaker 1: you went on to see a couple of courses that

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Speaker 1: are that are hosting Open Championships in the future, in

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Speaker 1: Royal Brickdale obviously next week, and then Royal Lithm and

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Speaker 1: Saint Anne I believe on the on the schedule for

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight or nine.

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Speaker 3: Twenty eight, and also the Women's Open is there at

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Speaker 3: the end of this month.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, okay, cool places. So we're talking about

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Speaker 1: Royal Brickdale today, going into detail about the golf course

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Speaker 1: and what your impressions of it are. I have some

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Speaker 1: of my own impressions, but those are just based on

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Speaker 1: seeing the golf course from afar. I've actually never been there,

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Speaker 1: so I'm very curious to get your kind of on

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Speaker 1: the ground details about it. Now, before we dive into

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Speaker 1: the elements of the course itself, I want to go

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Speaker 1: through a little bit of history. This is something that

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Speaker 1: I can offer in this podcast is some historical context.

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Speaker 1: So Royal Birkdale is in the coastal town of Southport

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Speaker 1: in the county of Merseyside. It's part of a trio

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Speaker 1: of open ROTA courses on the kind of Merseyside Lancashire coast.

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Speaker 1: Royal Liverpool is an hour south and Royal Livem and

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Speaker 1: Saint Anne's is just across the Ribel Estuary to the north.

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Speaker 1: It takes about an hour to drive between the two courses.

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Speaker 1: I believe but it's only nine miles as the crow flies,

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Speaker 1: so it is in a kind of series of very

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Speaker 1: well known golf courses on this one stretch of coastline

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Speaker 1: in England. Birkdale Golf Club was founded in eighteen eighty nine,

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Speaker 1: originally a nine hole golf course, and then in eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven the club moved to its current location in

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Speaker 1: the sand dunes just south of the city of Southport.

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Speaker 1: So the original course in this location was designed by

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Speaker 1: George Lowe, who was the professional at Royal Limb and

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Speaker 1: Saint Anne's. As far as I can tell, it was

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Speaker 1: a well regarded but not hugely well regarded golf course.

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Speaker 1: In Bernard Darwin's book Golf Courses of the British Isles,

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Speaker 1: he mentions it just once and kind of mentions it

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Speaker 1: in passing, you know, as part of a list of

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Speaker 1: courses that would be worth talking about on this coastline,

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Speaker 1: but he doesn't say anything else about it. And obviously

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Speaker 1: that version of Birkedale never hosted the Open Championship, so

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Speaker 1: clearly it was overshadowed in a sense by you know,

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Speaker 1: Hoylake to the south and Lithm to the north. So

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Speaker 1: we go forward to nineteen thirty two and Royal Birkdale

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Speaker 1: decided to completely redesign golf course. They brought in the

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Speaker 1: architects fred G. Hawtree and J. H. Taylor to do

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Speaker 1: the work and what they produced is essentially today's version

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Speaker 1: of the golf course with a lot of alterations, you know,

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Speaker 1: the usual amount of alterations that happened at Open Championship courses.

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Speaker 1: But this is kind of their golf course. So who

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Speaker 1: were Fred G. Hawtree and JH. Taylor? These are not,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe the best known names in golf architecture anymore.

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Speaker 1: We can start with Taylor. John Henry Taylor was a

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Speaker 1: very well known professional golfer. He was a member of

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Speaker 1: the Great Triumvirate alongside James Braid and Harry Varden. This

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Speaker 1: was a trio of British professional golfers who really dominated

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Speaker 1: the game around the turn of the twentieth century and

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Speaker 1: played a big role in popularizing the game in England

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Speaker 1: as well as the US, where where they kind of

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Speaker 1: took trips and spread the gospel of golf. Taylor won

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Speaker 1: the Open Championship five times and went on to be

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Speaker 1: a very significant golf architect as well. Probably his best

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Speaker 1: preserved original design is Royal mid Surrey golf Club near London.

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Speaker 1: Very interesting and kind of curious course. It has a

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Speaker 1: kind of artificial appearance that in some ways has come

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Speaker 1: back into fashion these days. He also wrote a fair

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Speaker 1: amount about golf course design. Bob Crosby, friend of the program,

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Speaker 1: who has been on designing golf a number of times,

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Speaker 1: has done research on Taylor, and Bob characterizes him as

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Speaker 1: mostly an advocate of what we would now call penal design.

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Speaker 1: So Taylor often expressed a belief that hazards should be

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Speaker 1: placed to punish poor shots, you know, poor strikes of

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Speaker 1: the ball, rather than serving kind of a more complex

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Speaker 1: strategic purpose. He liked cross bunkers and once wrote an

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Speaker 1: article lamenting that cross bunkers had fallen out of fashion.

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Speaker 1: And behind these positions I think was Taylor's conviction that

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Speaker 1: the purpose of golf architecture was to provide a fair

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Speaker 1: playing field for competition. Fairness was a big deal to

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Speaker 1: him and understandable that he would take that position given

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Speaker 1: his background as a professional, competitive professional golfer. Now, all

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Speaker 1: of that said, I don't know how much input Taylor

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Speaker 1: had at Royal Birkdale. My impression is that the new

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Speaker 1: course at Birkdale that was installed in nineteen thirty two

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Speaker 1: was mostly the work of his partner, Frederick George Haughtrey.

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Speaker 1: Fred G. Haughtrey Hattrey was not known as a competitive golfer.

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Speaker 1: He was very much a professional golf architect. Founded his

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Speaker 1: own firm in nineteen twelve, started working with Taylor in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two, and Hawtrey had what I'd characterize as

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Speaker 1: a very practical, utilitarian approach to design. He did a

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Speaker 1: lot of work at a lot of courses. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: known for his artistry, unlike his contemporaries Harry Colt and

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Speaker 1: Tom Simpson. You know, no one out there, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I mean very few people at the very least are

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Speaker 1: begging for restorations of Fred G. Hawtree courses. But Hawtrey

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Speaker 1: did end up having a big influence on British golf architecture.

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Speaker 1: His son, Fred W. Hawtrey carried on the family business

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Speaker 1: and in turn passed it on to Martin Hawtree, who

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Speaker 1: is still building and renovating golf courses today. So the

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Speaker 1: haw Tree firm is now one hundred and fourteen years old,

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Speaker 1: widely recognized as the longest continuously operating golf architecture company

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Speaker 1: in the world, obviously extremely successful. And I would say

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Speaker 1: that the haw Trees are sort of like the Jones

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Speaker 1: family of Great Britain, right, Robert Trent Jones, Robert Trent Jones,

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Speaker 1: Junior Rhys Jones, Except unlike the Joneses, they haven't really

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Speaker 1: gone out of style or you know, had their courses

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Speaker 1: kind of reversed in their character the way that the

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Speaker 1: Joneses have over and over in the US. You know,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, Mackenzie and Ebert, Tom McKenzie and Martin

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Speaker 1: Ebert the dominant golf architecture firm of the Open ROTA Today.

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Speaker 1: Mackenzie and Ebert are very much in the Hotrey mold,

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of work a lot of places, frequently

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Speaker 1: hired by courses that want to host big tournaments, not

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Speaker 1: particularly renowned for their craftsmanship, all right. So that is

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Speaker 1: the architectural lineage behind the nineteen thirty two Birkdale Golf Course.

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Speaker 1: It received the Royal designation in nineteen fifty one, hosted

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Speaker 1: its first Open in nineteen fifty four and ever since

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Speaker 1: then has very much been part of the Open RODA.

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Speaker 1: This year's championship will be the eleventh that Royal Bridale

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Speaker 1: has hosted since nineteen fifty four. Great list of winners,

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Speaker 1: Peter Thompson twice, Arnold Palmer, Lee Trevino, Johnny Miller, Tom Watson,

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Speaker 1: Ian Baker Finch, Marc o'meira, Patty Harrington and Jordan Speif

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Speaker 1: that's a murderer's row, I mean, that's a list to

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Speaker 1: be proud of. There's not really a random one in there.

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Speaker 1: You look at that list and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: those guys could play golf. So the course itself has

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Speaker 1: seen many updates over the years. Right Fred W. Hawtree

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Speaker 1: made some big changes in the nineteen sixties He created

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Speaker 1: the current par three twelfth hole and completely rebunkered the course.

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Speaker 1: The original bunkering at Royal Birkdale was much more kind

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Speaker 1: of rugged and lacy edged. Today's bunkering is kind of

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Speaker 1: that typical stack sod pop bunkering that you see at

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Speaker 1: many golf courses in this region. Then in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: one Martin Hawtree rebuild and redesigned all of the greens.

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Speaker 1: So basically every open, and there have been many opens

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Speaker 1: at Royal Birkdale, every open has brought a new round

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Speaker 1: of nips and tucks to this course and this year

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Speaker 1: is no exception. Tom McKenzie of the firm Mackenzie and

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Speaker 1: Ebert completed a major renovation last year, which we will

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Speaker 1: talk about Joseph later in this episode. I think that's

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Speaker 1: good for history. Let's go through the elements of the

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Speaker 1: golf course at Royal Birkdale. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: the land, the routing, the hazards, the greens, and the

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Speaker 1: design philosophy. Does that sound good? Sounds great? All right,

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Speaker 1: let's start with the land. I want to you know,

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Speaker 1: start off with your with your you know, impressions of

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Speaker 1: the land as you walked onto the golf course, as

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Speaker 1: you played the holes. How would you describe the terrain

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Speaker 1: at Royal Birkdale.

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Speaker 2: The dunes are the obvious land features at Royal Birkdale.

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Speaker 2: And as I'm sure you're going to talk about, a

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Speaker 2: lot of the fairways sit between the dunes. It's not

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Speaker 2: a golf course where there's a lot of traversing of

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Speaker 2: those dunes. You're near the water, you're near the Irish Sea,

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Speaker 2: but you don't ever you don't ever approach the sea.

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Speaker 3: You don't see it.

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Speaker 2: But the wind is a significant factor, in part because

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Speaker 2: of the proximity to the Irish Sea. So the things

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Speaker 2: that stand out, in addition to the wind and the

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Speaker 2: prevalence of wind, which I think is an important ingredient

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Speaker 2: of an Open Championship and how it tests golfers. The

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Speaker 2: dunes are a very significant part of the golf course

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Speaker 2: and they're not out of play.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's not that the yes, the fairways don't necessarily traverse them,

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Speaker 2: and greens aren't positioned on a lot of the dunes.

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Speaker 2: But the dunes are in play, as people will remember

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Speaker 2: from you know, Jordan Spief blowing a shot way right

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Speaker 2: on thirteen onto one of those dunes. You can end

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Speaker 2: up on them.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, of the dunes really, I mean like the

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Speaker 1: other side of the dunes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the dominant land feature and I think

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Speaker 2: that that should inform how people think about the golf course.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, dunes and wind. Those are kind of the

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Speaker 1: big big features of this property. Spectacular dunes right thirty

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Speaker 1: to forty feet tall, probably the biggest dunes on the

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Speaker 1: Open Roda, or at least rivaling those, especially you know

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Speaker 1: for an English golf course. These are dunes of the

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Speaker 1: type that you might associate a little bit more with

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Speaker 1: with Irish links courses. You mentioned the wind. My understanding

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Speaker 1: is the wind basically rips right off of the Irish Sea,

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Speaker 1: so it's coming directly in from from the shoreline roughly

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Speaker 1: west northwest on the compass, and that is the predominant

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Speaker 1: wind direction, but of course not the only wind direction.

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Speaker 1: One more thing I'd like to mention about this stretch

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Speaker 1: of links Land is that it also includes a couple

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Speaker 1: of other golf courses. So right next door to Royal

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Speaker 1: Brookdale is Hillside Golf Club, which has hosted some big

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Speaker 1: tournaments including the British Masters and number of years ago.

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Speaker 1: And then next to Hillside you'll find Southport and Ainsdale

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Speaker 1: Golf Club, which I've heard some great things about. So

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Speaker 1: all three of these courses kind of sit side by

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Speaker 1: side in this dune system. Royal Birkdale, of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: owns the most valuable part of this dune system, closest

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Speaker 1: to the ocean and with the biggest dunes. So that's

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Speaker 1: the kind of property we're dealing with, a Duneland property,

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Speaker 1: and very dramatic even for an open course. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: that leads us to the routing of the golf course

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of takes about the routing of

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Speaker 1: the golf course, so I'll talk about this first and

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Speaker 1: then i'll send it to you for you to tell

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Speaker 1: me whether this is sort of a correct set of conclusions.

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Speaker 1: But for me, it is the routing of Royal Birkdale

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Speaker 1: that really identifies it as a modern links. So first

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Speaker 1: of all, it's laid out in two loops of nine

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Speaker 1: has returning nines. The front nine travels around the northern

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Speaker 1: half of the property and the back nine travels around

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Speaker 1: the half, and the basic momentum of each nine is

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Speaker 1: to venture out toward the ocean side end of the property. Again,

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Speaker 1: you can't see the Irish Sea from the golf course

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, but you know generally the course kind

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Speaker 1: of goes out toward the ocean and then comes back.

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Speaker 1: The back nine has a couple of different loops where

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Speaker 1: it goes out toward that end of the property and

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Speaker 1: then comes back and then goes back out. So each

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Speaker 1: nine kind of has this has this momentum toward one

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Speaker 1: end of the property. But returning nines is the big

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Speaker 1: thing to notice here. This is not your old school

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Speaker 1: out and back golf course like Royal Troon or the

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Speaker 1: Old Course. The second big thing about the routing at

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Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale that feels modern to me is that the

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Speaker 1: holes almost exclusively run between the dune ridges instead of

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Speaker 1: going directly over them. And you already mentioned this. Just

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Speaker 1: about every fairway sits in a valley between dunes, and

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Speaker 1: just about every green sits in a little amphitheater surrounded

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Speaker 1: by dunes, and as a result, the fairways are relatively

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Speaker 1: flat and the greens are mostly relatively flat. This, I

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Speaker 1: would say is a very post World War II approach

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Speaker 1: to routing Duneland properties. Keeping in mind obviously that Fred

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Speaker 1: Hawtree and Jage Taylor did all this in nineteen thirty two,

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Speaker 1: so I guess in a sense they were ahead of

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Speaker 1: their time. But this kind of a approach where you

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Speaker 1: where you're kind of avoiding the bigger dunes is something

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Speaker 1: that I associate more with modern links in Great Britain

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Speaker 1: and Ireland than with links that were built or redesigned

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties or before. So those are the

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Speaker 1: two big points I'd make about Royal Birkdale's routing. And

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Speaker 1: it has those returning nines, each going toward the ocean

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Speaker 1: and then coming back, and it has this tendency to

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Speaker 1: stay between the big dunes instead of interacting with those dunes.

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Speaker 1: So do those points conform with your experience of the course, Joseph,

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Speaker 1: They do.

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Speaker 2: This is not a correction, but I wouldn't say that.

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Speaker 2: When you're playing the golf course, it feels like you're

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Speaker 2: at the beginning of each nine kind of going out

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Speaker 2: towards the sea and then back. Since it is insulated

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Speaker 2: and you never see the sea, it's not like the

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Speaker 2: wind intensifies as you get closer to the sea. So

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Speaker 2: it doesn't really feel that way to me, that you're

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Speaker 2: making your way out towards the water and then.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't feel like there's like a magnet that's attracting you

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Speaker 1: out there, like it doesn't St Andrews, you know, going

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Speaker 1: out toward the estuary, it feels like, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: drawing you out, and then the town draws you back.

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Speaker 1: There's not that same feeling.

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Speaker 2: I played the golf course one time, so I don't

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Speaker 2: want to There might be people who play it every

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Speaker 2: day and feel that way that they're being drawn out

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Speaker 2: toward the sea and then back, but no, it didn't

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Speaker 2: feel that way to me. I think the other The

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Speaker 2: only other part that maybe you didn't mention that I

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Speaker 2: felt was true and I think it sometimes discussed with Burkedale,

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Speaker 2: is it does make your changing directions a lot. For

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Speaker 2: the first twelve holes, you're never really playing two holes

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Speaker 2: in the same direction there or even like straight and

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Speaker 2: back right back. Once you get towards like thirteen, fifteen,

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Speaker 2: seventeen and eighteen all kind of play in the same direction,

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Speaker 2: and then fourteen and sixteen play back in the opposite direction.

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Speaker 2: But until you get to that point of the golf course,

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Speaker 2: you're sort of always playing in different wind directions like that.

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Speaker 2: That's the big part that's noticeable when you're playing it.

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Speaker 2: The wind is kind of constantly changing on you, and

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Speaker 2: that is something that I like about the golf course.

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Speaker 2: But yes, i'd say the defining characteristics of flat fairways

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Speaker 2: and flat greens situated between dunes you're appropriately hitting on.

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Speaker 2: And in terms of the going out to the sea

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Speaker 2: and back.

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Speaker 1: It's true.

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Speaker 2: And I have Google Earth pulled up and I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at it, and that's certainly true, but I would say

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Speaker 2: it doesn't it doesn't feel that way when you're prying

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Speaker 2: the golf course.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is why it's insightful to have you on

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Speaker 1: because I'm just looking at Google Earth and being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: look at that. But yeah, I mean, I guess since

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Speaker 1: you can't see the ocean that you don't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: that orientation of I'm going toward it and then coming back.

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Speaker 1: But the changes of direction is an important point to

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Speaker 1: make about this routing, and it's another thing that I

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Speaker 1: associate a little bit more with not modern links, but

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Speaker 1: more like post nineteen hundred's links. Right, Whereas a lot

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Speaker 1: of nineteenth century eighteenths links golf courses were happy to

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Speaker 1: go out and back and have multiple holes going in

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Speaker 1: the same direction. In sequence, there was much more of

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Speaker 1: an emphasis after the turn of the century on varying

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Speaker 1: the direction of the holes throughout the course. Now, another

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Speaker 1: thing that I've heard about World Birkedale's routing is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of holes are set on crosswinds specifically, so

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Speaker 1: the wind comes in from the Irish Sea predominantly northwest,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the holes are kind of oriented,

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Speaker 1: you know, perpendicular to that wind direction. Is that something

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Speaker 1: that you picked up on while you were.

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Speaker 2: There, Yeah, I would say I need to think through

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Speaker 2: the prevailing wind on every shot I had the prevailing wind,

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Speaker 2: So it's sort of helpful here as a reference. Like

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Speaker 2: straight away, the first hole you can go O B

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Speaker 2: right and the wind is off your left, so it's

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Speaker 2: not the most comfortable t shot, which is something that

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Speaker 2: I like about the golf course in terms of how

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Speaker 2: it tests pros. Some of the other shots, yeah, some

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Speaker 2: of the par threes, like seven is I think a

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Speaker 2: frequently photographed hole, kind of a short part three. The

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Speaker 2: wind is straight off your right. Twelve another part three

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Speaker 2: that is often photographed and one of the more iconic holes.

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Speaker 2: I guess you'd say, I don't know that any hole

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Speaker 2: at Brokedale's necessarily iconic, but twelve would probably be.

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Speaker 3: Towards the top of the list, straight off the right.

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Speaker 2: So some of the holes at the end you have

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Speaker 2: the wind you're either straight into or it's behind you.

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Speaker 2: But I would say, especially through the first twelve holes,

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with a crosswind, which is really difficult to play.

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Speaker 2: And there are a lot of shots where you've got

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Speaker 2: to start a shot if there's a decent amount of

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Speaker 2: wind pretty significantly far right of the green, if the

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Speaker 2: wind is off your right, and trust that it's going

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Speaker 2: to come back, like playing in the wind is a

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Speaker 2: very significant variable at Brookdale.

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Speaker 3: Yes, a lot of crosswinds out there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if we get significant wind during the open, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be challenging. It's going to be entertaining because

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Speaker 1: because the ball is going to be getting pushed left

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Speaker 1: or right. You know, you're not often traveling directly up

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Speaker 1: or down the prevailing wind. If you get the prevailing wind,

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Speaker 1: players are going to be having to manage their shot

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Speaker 1: shape with some pretty narrow corridors. You know, they're going

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Speaker 1: to be pushed into these dunes in one direction or

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Speaker 1: the other. So, yeah, the course can it can very

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Speaker 1: quickly become a beast from the sounding.

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Speaker 2: I guess, not to interrupt you, but I would need

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Speaker 2: to maybe think this through a little more. Like Shittacock,

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Speaker 2: for example, the prevailing wind is not the most difficult

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Speaker 2: way to play the golf course when you get the

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Speaker 2: opposite wind to the prevailing winds right right versus at Brickdale,

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Speaker 2: I would need to think about how all the holes

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Speaker 2: are oriented. But I think the prevailing wind would probably

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Speaker 2: be the most challenging direction. Don't don't hold me to that,

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Speaker 2: but it's a really difficult wind to play the golf

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Speaker 2: course in. So I don't know if that's I would

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Speaker 2: want to flesh that out a little more before saying

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Speaker 2: it definitively, but it feels that way and going through

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Speaker 2: the holes.

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Speaker 1: In that's an interesting point. Yeah, that's kind of a

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Speaker 1: different approach to routing for the wind. Do you route

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Speaker 1: for the most difficult course to be the most common course,

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Speaker 1: or do you route for the course to be most

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Speaker 1: manageable in the prevailing wind. Obviously, the easiest wind is

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Speaker 1: no wind at both of the courses, but if you

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Speaker 1: get the prevailing wind at Shinnacock, the down wind holes

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Speaker 1: are often the logger holes and the into the wind

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Speaker 1: holes are often the shorter holes. That's just the way

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Speaker 1: William Flynn approached routing for the wind there. The course

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Speaker 1: is challenging enough as it is, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: when when the wind comes more out of the north

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Speaker 1: at Shinnecock, then you're really in trouble and a lot

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Speaker 1: of members choose not to play the course on those days.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when we happen to get that wind

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Speaker 1: during US opens, that's when Shinnecock really turns into a beast.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, interesting at Rollbrickdale that the approach seems to

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Speaker 1: have been perhaps different. All right, let's move on to

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Speaker 1: the primary hazards Royal Brokedale. I've identified three categories here bunkers, dune,

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Speaker 1: vegetation and wind. Now we've already sort of talked about

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Speaker 1: the wind, so let's get into the bunkers. What was

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Speaker 1: your experience with the bunkers at Royal Birkdale, both in

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Speaker 1: terms of their placement and in terms of their style

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Speaker 1: of construction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I know we're going to talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit more about the renovation work that Tom mackenzie spearheaded

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Speaker 2: in advance of this open I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: that was to soften some of the bunkers and make

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Speaker 2: them a little more playable for members. And I would say,

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Speaker 2: in comparison to some other open venues like Litham for example,

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Speaker 2: which I have a reference for now less Penal, the

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Speaker 2: bunkers are a little more playable from around the greens.

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Speaker 2: You can advance the ball farther if you find a

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Speaker 2: fairway bunker. But in play like I think the bunkers

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Speaker 2: are located in places overwhelmingly that makes sense that will

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Speaker 2: be at the appropriate scale for professional golfers, so not

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Speaker 2: as there aren't a million bunkers. I don't know exactly

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Speaker 2: how many bunkers are out there, but it's not I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't say you feel like there's a bunker everywhere, but

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Speaker 2: definitely they are real hazard, just not as penal at

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Speaker 2: some other Open championship. And you don't have to come

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Speaker 2: out sideways. It's not like if you're in a pop

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Speaker 2: bunker around the greens you have no chance. The pretty manageable,

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Speaker 2: I would say, kind of going back to the fairness

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Speaker 2: idea that you laid out at the top of this podcast,

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Speaker 2: kind of feels like if this, if the original vision

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Speaker 2: was that you should be able to get up in

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Speaker 2: town from a bunker, then that is represented in the

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Speaker 2: golf course.

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Speaker 1: So it's not like Roal Liverpool where the bunkers are

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Speaker 1: kind of intentionally sadistic in a way right, where they

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Speaker 1: you know, intentionally created kind of flat bottom bunkers in

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Speaker 1: a lot of places that were all Liverpool so that

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Speaker 1: the ball would end up against the lip and not

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Speaker 1: be advanceable. Roy Burkedale a little bit more manageable. Now,

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Speaker 1: what about a position. Just looking at Royal Birkedale, it

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Speaker 1: seems to me that often both sides of the fairway

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Speaker 1: and both sides of the greens are defended by bunkers.

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Speaker 1: But we have a few different kinds of arrangements in

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Speaker 1: the fairways, some staggered arrangements here and there. What was

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Speaker 1: there general feeling about how the bunkers were placed the

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Speaker 1: spots that they most frequently show up in a player's

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Speaker 1: kind of dispersion pattern.

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Speaker 2: There's not a whole lot of like a bunker in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the fairway or a bunker that like

432
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: juts out into the fairway that makes you think about

433
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: whether or not you want to lay up short of

434
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: it or try to push past of it. It's more

435
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: bunkers that are to the side of the fairway or

436
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 2: to the side of the greens, and you're not thinking

437
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: as much I would say about like distance control and again,

438
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 2: do I want to play short of this or try

439
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 2: to push past it. It's more if I hit something offline,

440
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: there is a bunker there to catch it. And I

441
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 2: think that's basically the general premise throughout the golf course,

442
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: so there's very little exception to that. Sixteen is one

443
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,959
Speaker 2: where there's a bunker in the middle of the Fairway,

444
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: I don't. I'd have to think about if there's any

445
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 2: other ones that are like that. But often, you know,

446
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: you might have a bunker on the dog leg and

447
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: you got to carry it. If you don't, you're in

448
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 2: the bunker. Like That's how number six is. Yeah, I'd

449
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: say that's the general which which I think kind of

450
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: goes in line with the Penal school of architecture that

451
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 2: you alluded to again at the top of the show.

452
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: So that was my experience with it.

453
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: It would likely be that would be the method that

454
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: the Jage Taylor would prefer and defend, though I'm sure

455
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: he would like more cross bunkers to be present at

456
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale. There there generally aren't kind of like big

457
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: bunkers at Royal Birkdale. Most of them are small pots

458
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: and sometimes they're chained together to create a bigger hazard.

459
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: But rarely do you see the kind of big bunkers

460
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: going across the line of play. You know, there are

461
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: a few that Mackenzie and Ebert reintroduced to certain places.

462
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: To a couple of holes here and there, like on

463
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: five and seventeen would be the examples that would come

464
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: into mind. Fairway bunkers that are more of that kind

465
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: of blowout style, more rugged in their appearance, and of

466
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: course bigger as a result. What was it like when

467
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: you were off the fairway and in the rough?

468
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: So this is the biggest, I would argue, the biggest

469
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: defense of Royal Birkdale, and from my perspective, in what

470
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: provides an effective test of professional golf. Having a golf

471
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 2: course where there's a lot of space and the fairways

472
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 2: are pretty narrow. But often the fairway might be let's say,

473
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: twenty five yards wide, but from dune to dune or

474
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: from really thick dune vegetation area to thick dune vegetation

475
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: area on the other side it's like sixty five or

476
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 2: seventy yards. So often what you will find at Brickdale,

477
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: and I would this is one of the defining characteristics

478
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: in my opinion, kind of a narrow fairway and then

479
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: five to eight yards there's usually like maybe three yards

480
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: of rough, like a first cut that's pretty short and

481
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 2: you're fine if you find it ball sitting up, and

482
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: then another like five to seven yards of kind of

483
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: a thin ish native area that's playable. You'll find your

484
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: ball even if there weren't spectators out there, but you

485
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: don't want to be there. It's sitting down. And then

486
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: once you get wide of that, you get this thick,

487
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: dense vegetation. And if there weren't spectators, you probably wouldn't

488
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: find your ball, certainly wouldn't be able to advance it

489
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: very far. If you get really wide, then there could

490
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: be some instances where you're in spectator areas and you

491
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: kind of get bailed out and open. But largely I

492
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: would say that is the texture, the complexion of the

493
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: golf course. A pretty narrow fairway, a small penalty for missing,

494
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: and then a very very significant penalty for missing wide,

495
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: and that is where these dunes are in play are

496
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: impacting the golf course because you could hit into the

497
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: side of a dune super thick lie, I have almost

498
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: no chance of advancing the ball. If you were to

499
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: kind of map out the penalties with like a small

500
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: miss and a wide miss, it's probably about, as you know,

501
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: mathematically symmetrical as about anywhere on any open venue that

502
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: I could think of, And I guess there's probably some

503
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: aversion to that to an extent in some architecture circles.

504
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: But I think talking about it couldn't possibly be me.

505
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not even just saying you necessarily, but I

506
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: know that when I've mentioned that before, that that there's

507
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: I don't think it needs to be mathematically precise, but

508
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: I do like when a wide miss finds a significant penalty,

509
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: and I think that's part of why the pros will

510
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: really like Royal Birkdale as it does that. That's what

511
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: pros talk about all the time, like I want a

512
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: good shot rewarded, a bad shot pun The wide t

513
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: shots here are punished very effectively, and part of that

514
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: is because how much space there is out there. It's

515
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: not a cramped golf course where spectator areas now are

516
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: bailing out or tournament infrastructure is bailing out a wide miss.

517
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: That is a key characteristic.

518
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: Of Brickdale and why I would argue in part that

519
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: it might have more merit as a venue than it

520
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: does as a golf course, and there is a distinction

521
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: between the two.

522
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: And Roal Brickdale has based its identity for a long

523
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: time on the fact that it frequently hosts major tournaments,

524
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: not just the Open Championship, but the Women's Open and

525
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: the Amateur Championship, et cetera. And so this is a

526
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: major reason for the club to exist. It is the

527
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: thing that they pursue. And so, yeah, certainly makes sense

528
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: that a graduated penalty would be cultivated on a lot

529
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: of the t shots on these holes. And that's kind

530
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: of what you're describing, this graduated penalty where the wide

531
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: misses get the get the most severe punishment. The narrow

532
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: misses still get punished, but less so. And if you're

533
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: in the middle of the fairway and you hit it,

534
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: you hit strike the ball, well, then then you'll often

535
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: find yourself in a very good position to attack the whole. Okay,

536
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: that's that's really interesting. Obviously, a key characteristic of Royald Birkedale,

537
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: perhaps even more important than the bunkers, is the fact

538
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: that the the dune vegetation, the rough is laid out

539
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: in this fashion that you're talking about. This episode of

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Speaker 1: brings us to the Greens. Joseph and I want to

564
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: start with you here. You know it's hard to get

565
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: a sense for greens from Afar from pictures. I've done

566
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: my best and I have my general impressions of modern

567
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: greens that have been built at many open road to courses.

568
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: But how would you describe the greens at Royal Birkdale.

569
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: It's hard to get a sense of even after having

570
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: been there. Garrett like, I don't have a ton to

571
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: say about the greens. They're pretty flat. There's a little

572
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: bit of movement in them, and there's some elevation change,

573
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: and I think some of the greens that have been

574
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: built more recently have more of that slope, more slope

575
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: in them, like the seventeenth there's a significant amount of

576
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: slope in the seventeenth green. And the par fives tend

577
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: to have pretty big greens, pretty long from front to back,

578
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: which I think has its virtues from the standpoint of

579
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: not just that it's they're achievable to hit intwo for

580
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: somebody who's playing in the open, for a professional golfer,

581
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: but also if you hit it in a bad spot

582
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,479
Speaker 2: at the ball, then can actually travel and roll into

583
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: slopes into a bad area. So I think you'll see

584
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: that on the par five, six, fourteen, and seventeen all

585
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: are pretty big greens. But other than that, most of

586
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: the greens are similar in size. They're oval, they don't

587
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: have a ton of movement in them, and there aren't there.

588
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 3: There are some.

589
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 2: Most of them are surrounded by short grass, but it's

590
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 2: not like, oh, if you miss right on this green,

591
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: you're completely dead.

592
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: It's not super severe, not super severe.

593
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not super There's not a ton of areas

594
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: where if you're short sighted you're in a huge amount

595
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: of trouble.

596
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 3: I'd say largely.

597
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're oval, they have a little bit of slope

598
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: in them, not a ton. In the defense of this

599
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 2: golf course is not the greens.

600
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's basically been my impression. Now, instead of

601
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: speaking specifically to Royal Birkdale's greens, which again I haven't

602
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: experienced in person, I want to talk about what I

603
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: would consider this sort of house style of green design

604
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: in modern British golf architecture, and I'm talking more about

605
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: work that's been done at Open Road to courses over

606
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: the years by the likes of Martin Haughtree, Donald Steele

607
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: and most recently Mackenzie and Ebert. I think there is

608
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 1: a trend in green design and again, a house style

609
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: and a lot of the greens that Royal Birkdale from

610
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: photos I've seen, you know, kind of embody this tendency,

611
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 1: So that style is basically a roughly and oval shaped

612
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: putting surface, sometimes kind of peanut shaped, maybe almost always

613
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: longer than it is wide, sometimes set on a diagonal,

614
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: especially on par three's, but I would say usually set

615
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: straight onto the line of play, often guarded on both

616
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: sides by pop bunkers front right, front left with a

617
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: short grass run up through the middle is a frequent

618
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: orientation on the putting surface itself. Mostly flat, you know,

619
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: generally speaking, severe tilts are not very common. You don't

620
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: see a lot of prominent, rounded internal contours like rolls

621
00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: or spines or depressions or channels. Sometimes you'll see a

622
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 1: tier to define a difficult pin position, but for the

623
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: most part, the internal contouring is pretty simple and quiet.

624
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: The most distinctive aspect of this house style, though, is

625
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: these kind of scoopy short grass runoffs along the edges,

626
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: basically chipping swales that will shed inaccurate approaches away from

627
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: the putting surface and toward these lower collection areas. These

628
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: swales often have roughly the same shape and scale regardless

629
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: of the setting or the surrounding topography or whatever natural

630
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: environment the green is tying into. But you see them

631
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: a lot of places. Once you see them, you can't

632
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: unsee them now. I would say, good example is the

633
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: new Fifteenth Green, the new par three that Mackenzie and

634
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: Ebert built, and we'll talk more about that when we

635
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: get to the renovation work section of the podcast. But

636
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: if you just look at the fifteenth Green, yeah, it's

637
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: set on a little diagonal. There's some interest there, but

638
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: it is longer than it is wide, it has some bunkering,

639
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: but the primary feature is these chipping swales along the

640
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: sides of the green that have this roughly sort of

641
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: wavelike appearance, so that they are defined into different collection areas.

642
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: This is something I see on a lot of modern

643
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: and renovated links courses in Great Britain and Ireland. It

644
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: is very characteristic of the work of Donald Steele, who

645
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: renovated many of these courses in the seventies and eighties.

646
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: You see it a lot from Martin Hawtree, and we've

647
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: been seeing it very very often from Mackenzie and Ebert

648
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: as well, though I will give Mackenzie and Ebert some

649
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: credit here. I think that there there is a little

650
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: bit more variety in the way that they've executed this

651
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: concept on various greens than than we saw in the

652
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: work of say Donald Steele. But but it is kind

653
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: of still representative of what I would call this house style,

654
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: And honestly, it just drives me crazy. I think. I

655
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: think there's just there's this much much better ways to

656
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: approach green design that they're there are so many ways

657
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: that you can tie a green into its environment, uh

658
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: and kind of mimic the surrounding landforms that are more elegant.

659
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: But I'm just not sure that that we've seen a

660
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: huge amount of shaping talent and have these courses in

661
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: recent years at open road of courses. You know, it's

662
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: often often this work is contracted out and and uh

663
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: and and so to my mind, a lot of these

664
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: greens have come out looking a little bit similar to

665
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: each other. But that's just a general take, you know,

666
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 1: not necessarily about Royal Birkdale specifically, because again I haven't

667
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: seen them in person. I'm just getting an impression from

668
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: the photos about these designs. But to me, it's starting

669
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: to get a little bit repetitive.

670
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: So my only quick reactions to that fifteen that you

671
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 2: outlined the new Part three, which we'll talk more about

672
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: some of the renovations later in this podcast. But that's

673
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: a little more severe than a lot of what you

674
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: see at Brikedale. Pretty steep actually where it falls off

675
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: to the right in a tightly mown area that is

676
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: pretty significantly uphill if you miss that green over to

677
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: the right. Most of what you see at Brikedale, some

678
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: of the greens are yeah, they're perched up, but it

679
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: might be like a foot of the drop off. It's

680
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: not that severe. The only other real exception I can

681
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 2: think of to that is nine, which has a significant

682
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: false front that if you come up short on nine,

683
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: it probably rolls twenty yards back to your feet, and.

684
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: Probably seventeen to two, which is like an enormously long

685
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: green with deft levels to it.

686
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: The par fives are long, and especially seven the greens

687
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: the par fives are long, and seventeen has some pretty

688
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: significant slope in it. I would say, outside of fifteen,

689
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: the par three nine, which has a big false front.

690
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: In the par fives, almost all of the greens are

691
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: about the same size, whether it's Part three or Part four,

692
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,959
Speaker 2: about the same size oval and might have a little

693
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: tight runoff area in different parts, surrounded by pop bunkers

694
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: and not indistinguishable from each other, because somebody who plays

695
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: there every day would know the subtleties of all the greens,

696
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: but largely not a lot of variety in terms of

697
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 2: their size, in terms of the little chipping runoff areas

698
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: that you talked about.

699
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: If you had to sum up the design philosophy behind

700
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 1: Royal Brickdale, how would you put it?

701
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: Well? I think it's relevant that it's in the lease

702
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: that was granted to the course. According to the documentation

703
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: that we were provided, it says this was designed as

704
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 2: a tournament venue and that this is supposed to be

705
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: a championship test. And I'd argue that it meets that criteria.

706
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 2: That you know, fair is a word that I would

707
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 2: probably be pretty quick to use here, And even though

708
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 2: fairness isn't something that I necessarily think is super important

709
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 2: ingredient in a golf course, I think that the general

710
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: like you talked about, the gradual penalty here is a

711
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: significant part of the design philosophy. Whether that was a

712
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 2: part of the original vision or not, I don't know

713
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: how much they were thinking about gradual penalty in the

714
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds or in the nineteen thirties when this

715
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 2: redesign happened. But if you were to look at the

716
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: golf course now, I think that's one of the noticeable

717
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: things that you'd call out about it immediately. There aren't

718
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: a lot of blind shots. There aren't steep runoff a

719
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: super steep runoff areas where you find yourself in total jail.

720
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 3: To me, it's like it's an.

721
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: Eight It's a collection of eighteen solid holes that all

722
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: kind of fit the same mold. Like, yeah, penalty for

723
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: missing real premium on ball striking and being able to

724
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 2: control your trajectories and penalties associated with not being able

725
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: to do that, And that's basically every hole on repeat.

726
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 2: But I wouldn't when I say that it sounds mundane

727
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: or repetitive, I gotta say I didn't find the golf

728
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: course to be repetitive rote redundant, Like I actually think

729
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: there's a decent amount of variety out there, more than

730
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: I would have thought before. And like from a memorability standpoint,

731
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 2: the criteria do you remember all the golf holes? I do,

732
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: and I find them to be a little more distinct

733
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: than I might have thought going in so, but I

734
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: still think that fairness and that gradual penalty feels like

735
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 2: a pretty significant part of the DNA of this golf course.

736
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 3: Whether that was part of the vision from the beginning

737
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 3: or now, I think it.

738
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: Was for sure. But I'm curious what distinguishes the golf

739
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: holes from each other for you, because as if you

740
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: were from home, that's something that has been really challenging

741
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: with World Birkdale over the years.

742
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think the shot value is really high, and

743
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: so there are a lot of shots that fully commanded attention.

744
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: And for example, like the ninth hole dog leg right,

745
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: you're not going to see too many golfers try and

746
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 2: get over the corner because it's like two sixty and

747
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: then once you get over the corner and it kind

748
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: of slopes down to the right, the fairway gets very

749
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: narrow and you almost have nowhere to land it. So

750
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: you're going to see a lot of golfers hit shots

751
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: that are, you know, two hundred and fifty or so

752
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: yards off the tee and then they'll have some kind

753
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: of wedge in maybe one hundred and forty yards with

754
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 2: a lot of wind, and that's a different wind direction

755
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: a different the whole dog legs in a way that's

756
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: different than anything else out on the course. Really, I

757
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 2: think there's quite a bit of variety in the first

758
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: twelve holes. Maybe not the first couple, but you're playing,

759
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: you're playing in a lot of different directions, and I

760
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 2: think that there's a little bit of elevation change. Eleven,

761
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 2: you're on an elevated tee and you're hitting that hole

762
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: is pretty much straight away, but like you're right back

763
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,959
Speaker 2: into the wind, and that's a really, really hard golf

764
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: shot that you have to flight something down, hit like

765
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: a low piercing T shot, and if you don't have that,

766
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 2: you're gonna get exposed. Does that come through on TV?

767
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: Does that check the box of variety as much as

768
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 2: maybe we might like. I don't know, but it was

769
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: the only time I really felt like I had to

770
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: do that that day, from an elevated tea box into

771
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: a huge amount of wind. So I would say from

772
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: a shot value standpoint, you're always your attention is always heightened,

773
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 2: and the shots that you're asked to hit around the

774
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: greens are pretty similar. But I off the tee and

775
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: into the greens, it's a lot of different types of

776
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: shots like the fourth hole is I think it's two

777
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: twenty from this new back tea And when does straight

778
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: off your left to a pretty small green surrounded by

779
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 2: pop bunkers really really difficult? And then seven is a

780
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: much shorter, it's a short iron when to straight off

781
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: your right the green doesn't look that different. It's kind

782
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 2: of a small green surrounded by pop bunkers. The shot

783
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: is downhill Like those two part thres, I don't know

784
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 2: how differently they come across on TV, but they play

785
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: completely differently. So again, is that the variety that comes

786
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 2: through on TV that you're talking about and being able

787
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: to distinguish these holes from one another? Maybe not, but

788
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: in terms of playing them, and I think the pro

789
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: golfers will probably attest to this after they go through,

790
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 2: especially the first twelve or so holes. I think it's

791
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 2: a lot of different types of shots.

792
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think what's coming through here for me

793
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: is an impression that I've had all along really that

794
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale is very invested in fairness. Now, that can

795
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: be interesting. What's surprising to me, and what you're saying

796
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: is is how interesting that was for you. But the

797
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: design philosophy is one that is very devoted to fairness,

798
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: and yes, this graduated penalty has something to do with it,

799
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: but the level nature of the fair ways is probably

800
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: the biggest factor at Royal Birkdale that for me, contributes

801
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: to this overall impression that the courses is very much

802
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: about fairness. If you hit the fairway, you will have

803
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: a relatively level lie, with some exceptions here and there.

804
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 1: It's not as though the fairways are perfectly flat. There's

805
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: a little bit of rumple on them, but in general,

806
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: compared to most Links golf courses, especially the fairways at

807
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale, are relatively level. It's something that people have

808
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: commented on at Royal Birkdale since the nineteen thirties that

809
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: this is a way in which the course is very

810
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: different from other Links courses. And there are some, you know,

811
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: a variety of theories as to how these fairways came

812
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: to be because if you look at the dune system there,

813
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: if you look at the surrounding dunes, my understanding is

814
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: that there are very few natural flat places and so

815
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: when you see these fairways kind of running between these

816
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: big dune ridges that are more or less level, you

817
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 1: have to think that those are artificial, that they were

818
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: constructed to be that way somehow. Now, it was relatively

819
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: rare in nineteen thirty two, especially in Great Britain, that

820
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: a course would be manufactured from tea to green in

821
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: this fashion, so that that would be something pretty remarkable

822
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: in Gulf architecture for the time. But you know, one

823
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: theory that I read about in an article by Ron

824
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: Witten from two thousand and eight before the two thousand

825
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: and eight Open Championship. Witten's idea is that basically the

826
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: course was routed through natural valleys, through places where there

827
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: might have been even some water courses going through the dunes,

828
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: but that the level of those valleys was raised a

829
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: little bit. That they basically built the fairways up from

830
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: the bottom of the valleys and left them relatively flat.

831
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: And Ron Witten goes as far to say that you know,

832
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 1: hat Tree might have hired a road contractor to build

833
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: the fairways and that's part of the explanation as to

834
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: why they are so flat. But yeah, this is a

835
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: defining characteristic of Royal Birkdale and it's something that I

836
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 1: think pros and joy where if they hit the fairway

837
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: then then they're all right. They're not on a side slope.

838
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,439
Speaker 1: You know, that's something that competitive golfers have complained about

839
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: at Saint Andrews since the eighteen hundreds, that you can

840
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: hit the ball in the middle of the fairway the

841
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 1: ideal position and find yourself on a weird lie. That

842
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: can happen at Roural Saint George's, it can happen at

843
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: Royal Port Rush. So you know, pros like these level

844
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: lies in the fairway and that's something that Royal Birkdale

845
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: provides for me, though it is the course is missing

846
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,959
Speaker 1: something because of that. For me, one of the most

847
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: fascinating and pleasurable things about links golf is that there

848
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: is undulation and the and there's a little bit of mystery,

849
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: a little bit of complexity to the game once you're

850
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: in the fairway, and you know, as far as a

851
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: test is concerned, I think that the test of hitting

852
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: off of an uneven lie is a worthy one for

853
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: a professional golfer as well. So in any case, the uh,

854
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: if we're talking about philosophy of design, those flat fairways

855
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: and relatively level greens, that's an essential part of it.

856
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: If you're within the playing field at Royal Brokedale, then

857
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: then your game is going to be relatively predictable.

858
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 2: I guess well, it's probably sounding like I like fairness

859
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 2: more than I actually do. I think the course is

860
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: missing something and how flat I would say how flat

861
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 2: the greens are more than how flat the fairways are.

862
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 2: That's one of the things I appreciate about Augusta National

863
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: most the way that the uneven lies interact with the

864
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: shots you have to hit like that is such a

865
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 2: cool part of Augusta National that yes, I think Royal

866
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: Birkdale is missing something with how flat the fairways and

867
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: especially the greens are. But what I appreciate about the test,

868
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: and whether you want to call this fairness or just

869
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 2: the test of high level golf. You can't bully this

870
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 2: golf course because of how big it is and because

871
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: of how much there is a penalty for hitting something

872
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 2: way off line. And I think in that sense it

873
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: really commands a great golfer, a professional golfers attention, and

874
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: a lot of these other open venues, sadly that don't

875
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 2: play quite to the scale that they are intended to play.

876
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: You can kind of stand on a tea box and

877
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: say to yourself, like I can hit this one hard,

878
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: maybe carry a bunker that is supposed to be in

879
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: play and hit it anywhere, and even if I'm way

880
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: off line, it's not going to be that big of

881
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 2: a deal. And you can't do that as much at

882
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 2: Royal Birkdale. So I think that's the part of it

883
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 2: that I appreciated, and that it really heightened my attention

884
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: on all the shots, because it's not like you can

885
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: hit iron off a bunch of the te's it's still

886
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 2: pretty beefy. And then if you're hitting driver and it's

887
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 2: you got a significant crosswind and your ball is gone

888
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 2: if you hit it thready yards right of the fair way,

889
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: like that's a really good test. So it's for me

890
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: it was more about the shot value than the adherence

891
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 2: to fairness, though I agree with you that a little

892
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 2: bit more slope and some more interesting greens, frankly, would

893
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: go a long way at Royal Birkdale.

894
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: Are there any courses that you think would be interesting

895
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: to compare to Royal Birkdale, either in contrast or for

896
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: characteristics that might be similar.

897
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 3: I think it bears some resemblance to Port Rush.

898
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: I do. I think there's some similarity to Royal Port Rush,

899
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 2: in the way it plays through a lot of the dunes.

900
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 2: It's not the type of links like baked out irons

901
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: off to tea trying to avoid pop bunkers that jut

902
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: out into the fair way. It feels I think it

903
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 2: feels in a lot of ways similar to Royal Port Rush.

904
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: Maybe this isn't the best reference since we haven't seen

905
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 2: it super recently, but I think it's like the polar

906
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: opposite of Royal Litham in sane Hands, which I also saw,

907
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: where you're hitting bunker shots out sideways. It's like a quaint,

908
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: tight property where you kind of look around and you're like,

909
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: how can they have an open championship venue? How can

910
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 2: this host and open? You go to Birkdale, It's like, yeah,

911
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: this place can host and open.

912
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: It's really big.

913
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 2: Those dunes provide the good vantage points for spectators. So

914
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 2: from the way it plays. I've never played Royal Port Rush,

915
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 2: I have been there. I think there's some similarities, and

916
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 2: then yeah, completely completely different than a place like Litham

917
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 2: in Sant Anne's or any golf course that's really tight

918
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: and you're kind of looking at other holes as you're playing,

919
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 2: and maybe you have a wide miss and there's nowhere

920
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 2: for the spectators to stand because it's a small property,

921
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 2: so you're in the spectators and then you're hitting a

922
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: wedge onto the green and it doesn't really test you

923
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 2: that much. Like this is quite different than that. Yeah, yeah,

924
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 2: I mean Royal part Rush seems yeah, similar in some ways.

925
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 2: It is is of like a similar vintage, right that

926
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: they're early thirties golf courses. Essentially, that's when Harry Colet

927
00:53:58,360 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 2: did so much of his work.

928
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: At at Royal Port Rush. But Royal Port Rush does

929
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: have I think much more sophisticated in artful green design

930
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: as far as I can see, and definitely a more

931
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: assertive approach to routing large dunes. Right. There are big

932
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: fairway contours at Royal Port Rush. It's not it's not

933
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: that kind of playing between the dune ridges approach on

934
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: every single hole though. A lot of the holes that

935
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: Royal Port Rush are in these valleys, and part of

936
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: that is inevitable on sites with big dunes. This is

937
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: often a debate that golf course enthusiasts have with each

938
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: other whether big dunes or smaller dunes are better for golf,

939
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: and the argument against having big dunes on a golf

940
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,439
Speaker 1: course is that you can't really use them that much.

941
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: You have to for the most part avoid them, or

942
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: else the golf course will become non functional. And so

943
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: small dunes can can create a lot of interest because

944
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: you can play any which way over them, whereas at

945
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,240
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale and to an extent world Port Rush, you're

946
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 1: a little bit more limited to the valleys. That said,

947
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: another interesting comparison with Royal Birkdale. In fact, I think

948
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 1: the kind of yin to Royal Brokedale's yang is Royal

949
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: Saint George's, where there are really big dunes at one

950
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: end of that property, and the routing choices in that

951
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: section are so bold, right. There's not this avoidance of

952
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 1: blind shots, there's not this avoidance of huge fairway contours

953
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: or really perched greens that might be considered unfair by

954
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: some players. If you look at the first several holes

955
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: at Royal Saint George's so which travel through such big dunes,

956
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: it I think provides a kind of counter example to

957
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: the design philosophy the routing philosophy of Royal Birkdale, and

958
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: I think it also explains why We'real Saint George's is

959
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: not as beloved by competitive golfers as as Royal Birkdale.

960
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: It is St. George's is not afraid of quirk, it's

961
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: not afraid of accusations of unfairness. But to me, it's

962
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: thrilling because it actually interacts with the big stuff. It

963
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: doesn't just use the big dunes as penalty or as scenery.

964
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: It brings them into the golf holes. It actually maximizes

965
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: the greatest asset of the property. And that, to me

966
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: is what I really want a golf course to do.

967
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: And so that's I love Royal Saint George's. When I

968
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: played it for the first time last year, I loved

969
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: it far more than I expected I would. And part

970
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: of the reason is this is this approach to routing

971
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: the golf course.

972
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: No pushback. I think your critiques are valid. I think

973
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,919
Speaker 2: the parts of Brokedale that you don't love makes sense

974
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 2: to me if you were to I think the only

975
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 2: somewhat defense I'd offer is that if I think most

976
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 2: people would put port Rush like miles and miles ahead

977
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 2: of Brokedale, and to me that gap is a little narrower,

978
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: probably than most people might assign it. I don't think

979
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 2: broken is the golf course that port Rush is, but

980
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 2: I don't find that to be a I don't think

981
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 2: there's a huge golf between them, huh And why is that? Well?

982
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 2: I think maybe the port Rush I think some of

983
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 2: those holes blend together for me personally a little bit.

984
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 2: And similarly to like it's not. I think the virtues

985
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: of Brokedale, as we've mentioned, are how it tests a

986
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: professional golfer, and I think it does some of that

987
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: a little more effectively than port Rush. There are some

988
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 2: unbelievable golf holes at port Rush and the fifth out

989
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 2: by the water like there it has more outstanding golf holes,

990
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 2: but I think a lot of the holes at port

991
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 2: Rush kind of in the middle and even to start,

992
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 2: aren't the badass major championship golfers, and Brokedale I think

993
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 2: has a little more like from start to finish, commanding

994
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 2: your attention where it can kind of bite you anywhere.

995
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 2: So that's something that I like as somebody who watches

996
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 2: a lot of professional golf. But in terms of one

997
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 2: that to just walk every day, you know, maybe I'd

998
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 2: feel a little more positively about a Royal port Rush

999
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 2: compared to.

1000
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 3: Birkdale, at least using that criteria.

1001
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: Gosh, does a test of professional golf have to be boring? No,

1002
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: it does not. It does not. It sounds like that's

1003
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: what we're implying, though, that Royal Birkdale is a great

1004
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: test of professional golf precisely because of some of the

1005
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: aspects of it that make it kind of boring.

1006
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: I think it's more that, unfortunately, with technology, we have

1007
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 2: really outgrown a lot of the great, great designs across

1008
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 2: the world, and if they have been compromised in a

1009
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: way that the current dimensions of the game, you can

1010
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 2: overpower so many of these golf courses in ways that

1011
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 2: are obvious, like carrying a bunker, but also in ways

1012
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:13,919
Speaker 2: that are less obvious, and you can hit a shot

1013
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: three hundred and twenty yards off line you might find

1014
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 2: grand stands or something, and then you have a pretty

1015
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 2: easy shot on and so like Saint Andrews, unfortunately, I

1016
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 2: think is a great example where people who love golf courses,

1017
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 2: and I put myself in this category, I know you're

1018
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 2: obviously staunchly in this category, get delighted to watch golf

1019
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: at Saint Andrews, and then the shot value doesn't always

1020
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: quite line up with how it's intended, and that can

1021
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: be to me, that's very disappointing to watch in an

1022
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 2: Open championship venue, or any major venue for that matter.

1023
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 2: So I think, with the exception of basically Augusta, it's

1024
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 2: very hard to find great tests of professional golf that

1025
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 2: are also beautifully designed, and so I think Birkdale, Yeah,

1026
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 2: is it beautifully designed?

1027
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: Is that?

1028
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 2: Are there a lot of great golf holes out there?

1029
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 2: I don't think so, but I do think it's a

1030
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 2: really effective test. Now, the number of venues at this

1031
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 2: point that do both, it's very small, and again that's

1032
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 2: not because it's impossible to do.

1033
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 1: It's just because of the current scale of the game.

1034
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: You know, this is not a well worked out theory

1035
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: then I'm about to outline. But I've found myself recently

1036
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: wanting to move away from the framework of test when

1037
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: it comes to evaluating professional golf venues and more toward

1038
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: what makes a place a compelling venue overall for the viewer,

1039
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: primarily for the fan, and that doesn't always align with test.

1040
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: I don't think, for example, if you take a hole

1041
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: like the road hole at Saint Andrews, I don't know

1042
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: how the road hole necessarily rates on a test scale.

1043
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: But if you ask anybody what holes they want to

1044
01:00:55,880 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: see played in major championship situations, the road hole is

1045
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: going to come up. The fifteenth hole at Augusta National

1046
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: is going to come up. Are these holes really great

1047
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: tests of professional golf in the sense that they have

1048
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: high shot values for each shot and that they really

1049
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: identify the best player? Maybe not, but they inject a

1050
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: little bit of chaos into the tournament, and I think

1051
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: that's part of what people want to see, and that

1052
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 1: element of mystery and chaos and things just being a

1053
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: little bit off kilter. Maybe things being a little bit

1054
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 1: unfair is something that I crave in a professional golf venue.

1055
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that that that fits in with

1056
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: the framework of a great examination of golfing ability. But

1057
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: certainly I think it's the special sauce that makes certain

1058
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: holes so in certain courses so memorable, right, And that's

1059
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: something that maybe we're all burkedale acts a little bit there.

1060
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: There aren't many holes where I feel like, oh, this

1061
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 1: could get.

1062
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: Really weird, in complete agreement with you, and I think

1063
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 2: fifteen at August as an example that is a great

1064
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 2: test of professional golf and has that level of quirk

1065
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: and things can go awry. I think Tenant Shinnecock and

1066
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 2: I think Shinnacock is one of the premier major championship

1067
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 2: venues in the world, and it has that element of chaos.

1068
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 2: And again ten eleven at Shinnecock, I think are awesome,

1069
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 2: awesome tests of professional golf. I'm in agreement with you

1070
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 2: that Brickdale does not satisfy that criteria, and I do

1071
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: not think this is one of the best Open championship venues.

1072
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 1: I would not put this near.

1073
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 2: The top, but it at least satisfies the can you

1074
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: just get up and hit it wherever? No, you cannot,

1075
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, there are so many venues now that fail

1076
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 2: to satisfy that criteria, and I think that is where

1077
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 2: my frustration comes from that if we were to significantly

1078
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 2: scale back the game, a lot of the places that

1079
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,959
Speaker 2: you take delight in and have their quirk, we would

1080
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 2: actually allow that quirk to shine versus muting it because

1081
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 2: you can just overpower it. So I think it's a

1082
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 2: much more of a commentary on the state of the

1083
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: scale of the game than it is appreciating the level

1084
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 2: of fairness that Birkdale exacts.

1085
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you there. But you know, Royal Birkdale

1086
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: has its place in the Open ROTA when you put

1087
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:25,919
Speaker 1: it that way, right alongside the old course in Royal

1088
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 1: Saint George's and even you know some holes at Hoylake.

1089
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale has its identity, it has its position on

1090
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: the RODA, and I think it's probably good that the

1091
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 1: RODA features a course like Royal Birkdale, which is, you know,

1092
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: just has a different character than most of the kind

1093
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 1: of older links courses that where the Open Championship is held.

1094
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 2: And just quickly, this isn't Tory Pines, Like I think

1095
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 2: Tory Pines is the kind of rote like people say

1096
01:03:57,960 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 2: it's a good test, but sure not a well to

1097
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 2: designed golf course. I think it's kind of common sentiment

1098
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: at this point. I would just contend that Brokedale is

1099
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 2: more going on than somewhere like Tory Pines.

1100
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you often bring up the subject of wide

1101
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,439
Speaker 1: misses when we talk about Tory Pines, where those wide

1102
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: misses really really aren't punished very severely compared to narrow misses,

1103
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: and that flattens the competition in some ways and makes

1104
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,439
Speaker 1: it less satisfying. You know, it doesn't feel like maybe

1105
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 1: we've identified the best player consistently at Tory Pines. Although

1106
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: the winners there have been have been all stars, two degree,

1107
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,919
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale is there's certainly something more satisfying about seeing

1108
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: a golfer conquer Royal Birkdale. You know that they've you

1109
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: know that they've done a good job. And honestly, the

1110
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: roster of winners at Birkdale testifies to that one of

1111
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 1: the best lists of winners I think that any course

1112
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: can claim, and so that's that's something that I think

1113
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: the club can rightfully be proud of. All Right, let's

1114
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the renovation work now here.

1115
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: Toward the end of the podcast, we've gone through the

1116
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 1: elements of the golf course, given some takes on how

1117
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: we think it'll play and just what we make of

1118
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: the golf course architecture there in general. There have been

1119
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: some changes recently at Royal Birkdale, carried out by McKenzie

1120
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 1: and Ebert. The club hired mackenzie and Ebert in twenty

1121
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: twenty two specifically to prepare the course for this year's Open,

1122
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: so the changes they made were targeted at Championship Golf

1123
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: in case we haven't covered this before. Mackenzie and Ebert

1124
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 1: is a partnership between Tom McKenzie and Martin Ebert. On

1125
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:44,480
Speaker 1: each of their projects, one of them takes the lead.

1126
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 1: At Royal Birkdale, Tom McKenzie was the lead architect, but

1127
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 1: as a firm, Mackenzie and Ebert are the undisputed Open

1128
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:59,479
Speaker 1: Championship doctors. They now consult at all of the current

1129
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: Open RN golf courses, including the old course at Saint Andrew's,

1130
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: so they are incredibly dominant in this particular domain of

1131
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 1: golf architecture. Their work at Royal Birkdale was carried out

1132
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: between twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five, and the

1133
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: changes were extensive. Tom McKenzie made alterations to every single

1134
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: hole at Royal Birkdale. I'm not going to go through

1135
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: all of those changes right now, but one of the

1136
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 1: major goals of the renovation was to create more variety

1137
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: in the par three's. Previously, three of the four par

1138
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: three's at Royal Birkdale basically played in the same direction,

1139
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 1: and then the other par three often required the same

1140
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,320
Speaker 1: club as the other par three's in certain wind conditions.

1141
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 1: So the idea was to just get more variety in

1142
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: the t shots there, and the way that they did

1143
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 1: that was to eliminate the old fourteenth hole and then

1144
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: to create a new par three playing back toward the

1145
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 1: clubhouse between what used to be the fifteenth and sixteenth holes.

1146
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: So the old fourteenth hole happened to kind of sit

1147
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 1: between the clubhouse and the practice ground. Eliminating that hole

1148
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: allows better access to that big practice area and driving

1149
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 1: range which will be during the Open Championship, a fan village,

1150
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 1: So this has been an infrastructural improvement as well as

1151
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 1: an improvement in the kind of directions and lengths of

1152
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: the par threes.

1153
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 2: And just to clarify it, yeah, what understanding is the

1154
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 2: fourteenth green that they used to have has just been

1155
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 2: repurposed as the short ging facility. So it's kind of

1156
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 2: sitting there like it was the old fourteenth hole, but

1157
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 2: it is now a short ging facility.

1158
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: And they can use it in the winter or something

1159
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 1: as a part three. They can still play it as

1160
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: a golf hole, but you know, basically the old fourteenth

1161
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 1: hole was kind of blocking access to that area. You know,

1162
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: now it's just a little bit more open there and

1163
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 1: the fan village, which is a big priority in any

1164
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: Open Championship these days is going to be a bit

1165
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 1: more easily accessible from the clubhouse than it would have

1166
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 1: been otherwise. So this new par three, the fifteenth hole,

1167
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: brand new hole designed by Mackenzie and Ebert, plays back

1168
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: toward the clubhouse, okay, in a different direction from the

1169
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,560
Speaker 1: rest of the par three's, And then in order to

1170
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: have roomed for that par three, the current fourteenth hole

1171
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 1: had to be kind of shifted toward what is now

1172
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 1: the fan village. So you know, again, Mackenzie and Ebert

1173
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 1: designed and built a new fourteenth hole. Okay, So we

1174
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,600
Speaker 1: have a new fourteenth, we have a new fifteenth, and

1175
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: from there the course plays home sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen

1176
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,679
Speaker 1: roughly like it used to. So that is the single

1177
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 1: biggest change. Two new golf holes in that critical section

1178
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: of the back nine. The other really major change was

1179
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 1: rebuilding the fifth hole, which is a short par four.

1180
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:20,600
Speaker 1: Basically it was not a very well respected hole, and

1181
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 1: Mackenzie and Ebert designed and built a new one in

1182
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 1: the same location. So those are the biggest differences, I think,

1183
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 1: Joseph that people will notice between the twenty seventeen Open

1184
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 1: Championship version of Royal Birkdale and the twenty twenty sixth version.

1185
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:41,799
Speaker 1: Where do you want to go with this? What changes

1186
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 1: did you find the most interesting? What did you make

1187
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: of them?

1188
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 2: I think you are appropriately highlighting the most relevant changes.

1189
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 2: So like fourteen, now the par five is going to

1190
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 2: play if they want, like six hundred yards and back

1191
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 2: into the wind, and I believe it was five point

1192
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 2: fifty before, so there's some lengthening there. Fifteen is the

1193
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 2: entirely new part three. It's two hundred and forty yards

1194
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 2: from the back to very very difficult shot and completely

1195
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 2: different par three than what existed before. I understand the

1196
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 2: not wanting to have the same club in your hands

1197
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:16,560
Speaker 2: four times, potentially wanting a little more variety. So that

1198
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 2: is the need that I guess I'll use need in quotes,

1199
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 2: but that's why they the impetus for that change.

1200
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 3: And then five is totally different.

1201
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 1: Five.

1202
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 3: I would agree that the whole before was not particularly good.

1203
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,840
Speaker 2: It was just a short four that didn't There was

1204
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 2: no there were no bunkers in any of the landing

1205
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 2: areas off the tee. I think it was about three

1206
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty yards before and the length hasn't changed much.

1207
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 2: But now there's a smattering of bunkers up by the

1208
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 2: green and a fairway bunker that kind of protects the

1209
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 2: left side. The other change on five that will probably

1210
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,640
Speaker 2: just like kind of fly completely under the dar, but

1211
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 2: you might find interesting, Garrett is a pretty big dune

1212
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 2: on the right that obscured the view to the green

1213
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 2: was flattened. And I don't know all the reasons for that,

1214
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 2: or if it was an artificial or natural dune before,

1215
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 2: but like that was probably the one area where there

1216
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:11,760
Speaker 2: was a blind shot if you wanted to go for

1217
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 2: the green.

1218
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 3: It was kind of obscuring the whole.

1219
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 2: I don't know if that was the impetus for the

1220
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 2: change and not wanting to have any blind shots, but

1221
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 2: I just found that kind of amusing that I've sticked

1222
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 2: the one quirk kind of to the golf course.

1223
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 1: It is no longer there. Yeah. Well, the other quirk

1224
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 1: was that eighteen had two sets of tease and was

1225
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 1: kind of had a double fairway at the start of

1226
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 1: the fairway where you would play into the hole from

1227
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 1: different directions, And the thought there was that this hole

1228
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 1: had a schizophrenic identity and they wanted to unify it

1229
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 1: around one set of tees, So they kept the left

1230
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 1: setatees where the whole plays a little bit straighter, and

1231
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 1: that was no other quirk of the golf course that

1232
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: has gone away. I'm not necessarily saying that that was

1233
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 1: like the coolest thing or that it was genius design

1234
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 1: or anything like that, but they have taken that away

1235
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, taking the blind shot on five away.

1236
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 1: What do you make of the new fifth hole? I mean,

1237
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 1: just looking at it, like in terms of strategy, like

1238
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 1: not bad, you know, I don't I kind of see

1239
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 1: what they're going for. I guess pushing up towards the

1240
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: green on the short part four is feels a little

1241
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 1: bit risky, or you know, the landing zone is a

1242
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 1: little bit more obscured. You can kind of lay up

1243
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 1: to the left a bit. I mean, what did you

1244
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 1: make of the new fifth hole?

1245
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: When I make of the fifth hole is what I

1246
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 2: make of the changes on net overall, Garrett, which is,

1247
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:34,439
Speaker 2: I feel like they've replaced holes, at least in the

1248
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 2: changes that they've made that weren't particularly sacred or special before,

1249
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 2: with holes that still aren't necessarily that great a golf

1250
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 2: holes or special or sacred now. And I think the

1251
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 2: fifth hole before it was weak, and so this is

1252
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:48,879
Speaker 2: an upgrade almost by default.

1253
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 3: I still don't really like this golf hole. I think

1254
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 3: it looks really weird.

1255
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,600
Speaker 2: That's a lot of rumpling of the fairways to the

1256
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:58,639
Speaker 2: right of the green that looks really artificial and funk.

1257
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 1: As soon as I saw that, I saw some early

1258
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: pictures of this, maybe even in twenty twenty four when

1259
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: they executed this shaping in the run up to the green.

1260
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 1: Basically it's very lumpy, bumpy, but doesn't really look natural

1261
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 1: because it's a bit too uniform, and you don't really

1262
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,799
Speaker 1: see that elsewhere at Royal Birkdale because, as we've discussed extensively,

1263
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 1: the fairways are fairly flat, and so I'm not sure

1264
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 1: why they made this decision to create artificial mounds around

1265
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 1: this set of bunkers that kind of runs up to

1266
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 1: the green.

1267
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:34,640
Speaker 2: It's just kind of a weird, a little bit of

1268
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 2: a clunky, awkward golf hole to me. It's again, before

1269
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 2: I don't think it was a good golf hole, but now, like,

1270
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,680
Speaker 2: if you want to go for the green straight back

1271
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 2: into the wind, you're gonna have to hit something. It's

1272
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 2: like three hundred ish yards to the front of the green,

1273
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 2: but there's nowhere really for you to put the ball,

1274
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 2: Like there's bunkers all down the right side that you're

1275
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:56,240
Speaker 2: going to end up in. There's like a pretty narrow

1276
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,800
Speaker 2: fifteen ishuyard wide gap if you go let the left

1277
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 2: side of the green that you could hit something up there.

1278
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 2: But I think you're gonna see most guys when the

1279
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 2: wind is up, just hitting iron into the fairway, and

1280
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 2: that iron is harder now, like there is a fairway

1281
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 2: bunker protecting the left side of it. It's not as

1282
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:15,600
Speaker 2: thoughtless off of the tee. So I think from an

1283
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:19,599
Speaker 2: execution standpoint or the golfer what they need to execute,

1284
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 2: the shot value has been enhanced and it is a

1285
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 2: more challenging golf hole. I still think it looks weird

1286
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 2: and I don't think it's a great hole now, But

1287
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 2: again that's kind of how I feel about the changes

1288
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 2: overall that they made. I'm pretty neutral on them. I

1289
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 2: think I understand the rationale for them. I don't think

1290
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 2: they blew up anything sacred, and I think in a

1291
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 2: couple spots things look a little weird. Left of sixteen

1292
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 2: green is another spot that I immediately clocked as I

1293
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:48,719
Speaker 2: was playing. I was like they took out two bunkers

1294
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 2: and you can tell like it looks really funky left

1295
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 2: of the sixteen green, like these two big swales where

1296
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 2: the bunkers used to be. But overall, I think a

1297
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:59,720
Speaker 2: lot of the changes were fine. I'm not offended by

1298
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 2: the fit fifteenth part three that that one is going

1299
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:06,800
Speaker 2: to be highly scrutinized next week during the Open. It

1300
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 2: didn't bother I think it's fine. I think it's a

1301
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 2: pretty good golf hol for pros. So overall, I think

1302
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:15,679
Speaker 2: on net I rate out somewhere neutrallly on all the changes.

1303
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 1: You know, because of rural Brookdale's history as a golf

1304
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:25,080
Speaker 1: course that was meant to host tournaments and that never

1305
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 1: really had precious golf architecture to begin with, I find

1306
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 1: myself challenged to get too worked up about any of this,

1307
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, as far as I'm concerned, I think I

1308
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 1: come down where you do. It's fine. It could be better. Yeah,

1309
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 1: the architecture could be better, the shaping could be better,

1310
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 1: the tie ins with the natural environment could be better.

1311
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 1: The strategies could be more interesting, the greens could be

1312
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 1: more interesting. All of this. But it's not like they're

1313
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 1: running roughshod over Harry Colt or Thoms Simpson greens here,

1314
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 1: you know, And that's what it really raises my hackles

1315
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 1: with new work at places like Royal Liverpool or if

1316
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 1: they were to do anything God forbid to the older

1317
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: greens at Royal Saint George's, you know, that's where that's

1318
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:14,800
Speaker 1: where I'd get I'd get kind of angry. But with

1319
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:17,680
Speaker 1: World Birkdale that this has been the nature of the

1320
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 1: course from the beginning. You know, they kind of make

1321
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 1: make some changes for each Open Championship it's been in

1322
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 1: a course has been in a continual state of flux

1323
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 1: basically from the time that the club moved to the

1324
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 1: stretch of Doomland to the current day. They're always making

1325
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 1: these little adjustments. Do I think that the you know,

1326
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:42,560
Speaker 1: from Afar, does the golf course design look like it

1327
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 1: falls short of the kind of best design work that's

1328
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: being done today. Absolutely, yes, But I'm sure that it

1329
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 1: will be a fine Open Championship venue, that it will

1330
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 1: be challenging, that it will be a test, and if

1331
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 1: the wind is up, it's going to be incredibly entertaining

1332
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:04,800
Speaker 1: because you know, wind and linksland terrain is an invincible

1333
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:08,720
Speaker 1: combination and no matter what the golf architecture on the

1334
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 1: ground is, that would be interesting. So hoping for wind

1335
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:15,880
Speaker 1: that's always going to make an exciting tournament. So yeah,

1336
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:18,799
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm kind of kind of with you on that, Joseph.

1337
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:21,560
Speaker 1: I wonder if there are any are there any particular

1338
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 1: holes that you're especially excited to see or or even

1339
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 1: just like a little more excited than then you are

1340
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:33,959
Speaker 1: to see the rest of the holes, because as we've established,

1341
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 1: there aren't any particular huge highs. There aren't high highs

1342
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 1: at Royal Birkedown necessarily, But are there some holes that

1343
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: you think people should keep an eye on?

1344
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 3: Yes, and sorry, just quickly on the changes.

1345
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:47,720
Speaker 2: I think the other thing we should highlight is that

1346
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:50,320
Speaker 2: a lot of these it's a lot of these holes

1347
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 2: are at sea level, and there was a there was

1348
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,880
Speaker 2: a legitimate flooding issue with a lot of these holes.

1349
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of the bunkers, especially

1350
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 2: in the winter, like the Seventh Green, they have now raised,

1351
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 2: and I mean I think that hole is just as

1352
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:03,080
Speaker 2: good or if not better now, and.

1353
01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 3: There was actually a practical need for some of it,

1354
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 3: so I wouldn't be called that.

1355
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:08,560
Speaker 1: I think This is part of the history of the

1356
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 1: routing of the golf course where it was routed through

1357
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 1: kind of what are called dune slacks, right, basically waterways

1358
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:18,640
Speaker 1: between the tall dunes. Obviously, that's going to create some

1359
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:21,640
Speaker 1: drainage issues and probably explains why a lot of the

1360
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:24,080
Speaker 1: greens are you know, a little bit built up from

1361
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 1: the terrain in some slightly repetitive ways. You know, that's

1362
01:18:28,280 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 1: that's good for drainage. So yeah, good note there golf

1363
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 1: holes that you want to keep an eye on.

1364
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean five and fifteen people should monitor because

1365
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 2: those are brand new ones, as is fourteen. But I

1366
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 2: think forming an opinion will be interesting. It'll be interesting

1367
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,120
Speaker 2: to hear what other people say. But I would say

1368
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 2: the part three's in general, I would just I would

1369
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 2: be excited to watch. There's not going to be carnage.

1370
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 2: There's no like postage stamp hole. But they're just very

1371
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 2: difficult shots. And so I think like seven and twelve,

1372
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:00,560
Speaker 2: you're going to get a hard win off of the

1373
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 2: right and seeing who has that shot, whether they hold

1374
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 2: up some kind of cut, if they're alrighty into the wind,

1375
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 2: can you start a shot far right enough when the

1376
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 2: wind is significant like you really do have the golf

1377
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 2: course is exposed, like you've got to hit pure iron

1378
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 2: shots that really play the wind.

1379
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,560
Speaker 3: So I think those are interesting to keep an eye on.

1380
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:24,519
Speaker 2: One right off the top, maybe not the most interesting

1381
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 2: golf hole in the world, but again there's ob right

1382
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:29,680
Speaker 2: and there's a hard wind off of your left when

1383
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 2: the wind is up. So no, there's not one hole

1384
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,240
Speaker 2: in particular that I think people need to be a

1385
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 2: fixed to their TV when it comes on. But I

1386
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:41,280
Speaker 2: think overall watching shots get smacked out of the air

1387
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 2: and seeing who can flight their ball and hit a

1388
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 2: pure iron shot that is basically present on every hole

1389
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 2: when the wind is up, and I think that's the

1390
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:50,559
Speaker 2: main thing to get excited for him to watch. Who

1391
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 2: are some of these frauds that can't do that, that

1392
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:54,800
Speaker 2: just hit it way up into the air because it

1393
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 2: does not work out there.

1394
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of justice for the driving range rats,

1395
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:01,360
Speaker 1: I suppose.

1396
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, precisely.

1397
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 1: A couple of holes that you know, again jumped out

1398
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 1: to me just looking at photos and kind of trying

1399
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 1: to piece together how players would approach the holes. The

1400
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:17,519
Speaker 1: eleventh hole, you know, kind of cool angles off the

1401
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:21,759
Speaker 1: tee dog leg par four. The fairway bunkers define different

1402
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 1: landing zones and and I would expect different players to

1403
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 1: choose different landing zones depending on wind conditions. The green

1404
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 1: is oriented to the inside of the dog leg, a

1405
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 1: little bit offset from the shape of the fairway, in

1406
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 1: a way that's slightly unusual at Royal Burkedale. So eleven

1407
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 1: jumps out to me as you know, a nicely executed

1408
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 1: dog leg par four hole. And then the other one

1409
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:47,879
Speaker 1: that I'm looking forward to seeing and that I remember

1410
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 1: being pretty entertaining in twenty seventeen is the seventeenth hole

1411
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: at part five. Coming home, you know, you can get

1412
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:58,320
Speaker 1: aggressive over the big dune on the left for a

1413
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 1: chance of reaching the green. And two and then the

1414
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 1: green itself, you know, a little bit out of character

1415
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:05,479
Speaker 1: with the rest of the golf course. It was built

1416
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:09,400
Speaker 1: by Martin Hawtree back in the nineties, but very long,

1417
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:14,320
Speaker 1: undulating green that introduces a different flavor to Royal Birkdale.

1418
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:18,240
Speaker 1: And you know, in isolation, considered as as its own hole.

1419
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:21,000
Speaker 1: And you know, putting aside the concern about the fact

1420
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 1: that this green is is not like the other greens

1421
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: at roll Birkedale, I think it should be should be

1422
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 1: fairly fun to watch players navigate that green on the

1423
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 1: way home with a potential shot at the Open Championship.

1424
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:36,360
Speaker 1: So eleven and seventeen are kind of the holes that

1425
01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:36,960
Speaker 1: jump out to me.

1426
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:39,360
Speaker 3: Six is also a pretty cool tea shot. I'd call

1427
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 3: that out.

1428
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:41,840
Speaker 2: It's a par five for member play, but they play

1429
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 2: it as a part four, and there's a bunker down

1430
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 2: the right and a bunker down the left as it

1431
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 2: dog legs to the right, and seeing which guys try

1432
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 2: to take it over that dog leg.

1433
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 3: It's narrow. That fairway gets really narrow.

1434
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 1: Rory did it.

1435
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:57,800
Speaker 2: I was rewatching twenty seventeen. He just bombed it over

1436
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 2: the corner. But it's only like seventeen eighteen yards wide,

1437
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 2: and that's one of the very few areas on the

1438
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 2: golf course that has any water. There's a little water

1439
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 2: hazard that runs down the left side and you can

1440
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 2: bounce through the fairway through a little bit of fescue

1441
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:13,719
Speaker 2: if it's got some pace on it, into that water hazard.

1442
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:15,599
Speaker 2: So I think that's actually a really good t shot

1443
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:16,160
Speaker 2: for these guys.

1444
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah. I mean, if there is strategic interest at

1445
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:23,759
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale, if there are angles to consider, then often

1446
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:27,240
Speaker 1: it is on these dog leg holes where you have

1447
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 1: the option of taking it over the corner of the

1448
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:32,200
Speaker 1: dog leg and trying to hit a fairway that's oriented

1449
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:35,679
Speaker 1: on a diagonal in relation to the line of play.

1450
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 1: You know. I think that there will be some pros

1451
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:42,760
Speaker 1: who kind of appreciate that there is a legitimate question

1452
01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:45,320
Speaker 1: on a lot of tea's at Royal Birkdale whether you

1453
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:48,880
Speaker 1: air out a driver or take a shorter club, and

1454
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:50,760
Speaker 1: I think for that reason that there will be some

1455
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,519
Speaker 1: pros who maintain that, yeah, this is a strategic golf

1456
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:55,160
Speaker 1: course because I think that's how a lot of pros

1457
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 1: understand strategy. Is this a hole where I'm actually being

1458
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 1: persuaded to take driver out of my hands. There might

1459
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 1: be a couple of places at royld Brookdale that they

1460
01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:07,080
Speaker 1: do that, which I think will register as interesting to

1461
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 1: the pros, even if it's you know, a little bit

1462
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 1: less interesting on the whole for viewers compared to other

1463
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: things that could be going on on the golf course.

1464
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 2: And how that club choye interact with trajectory I think

1465
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:21,920
Speaker 2: is really important because some of the golfers that they

1466
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:25,400
Speaker 2: can hit something flighted down like a hard teed down driver.

1467
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:27,599
Speaker 3: That changes the calculus a little bit.

1468
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 2: And the wind is just such a significant part of

1469
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 2: this test that I think that's an integral part of

1470
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:33,120
Speaker 2: that off the tea decision.

1471
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprising to see a player do

1472
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 1: really well in this tournament hitting a driving iron off

1473
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 1: the tee, like just kind of trying to bully the

1474
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:45,519
Speaker 1: course with a low trajectory accurate driving iron like Brooks

1475
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:49,920
Speaker 1: Tepka did at Chinnacok Hills in twenty eighteen. Certainly would

1476
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:53,360
Speaker 1: not be surprising to see that happen. And of course

1477
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 1: wind is the X factor here. If we get wind

1478
01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:58,760
Speaker 1: at this tournament, you know, basically everything that I've said

1479
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,599
Speaker 1: in my critis of the golf course and that you've

1480
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 1: said in your critiques is almost rendered irrelevant, right, I mean,

1481
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 1: it's just going to be It just be so fun

1482
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 1: to see this course played in the wind. You know,

1483
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 1: good golf architecture is always a plus. It's never it

1484
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: never goes a miss. But the biggest, the biggest factor

1485
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 1: is the combination of wind and firmness. If we get

1486
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 1: that at this Open Championship, at any Open Championship, we

1487
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 1: are going to have fun. So I'm looking forward to

1488
01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:27,879
Speaker 1: the tournament. Joseph, thank you for coming on the podcast.

1489
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:30,720
Speaker 1: Really appreciate your perspective. Thank you for traveling out there

1490
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 1: and actually seeing the golf course so that we can

1491
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:36,520
Speaker 1: talk about it in an in depth way on this podcast.

1492
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:37,200
Speaker 1: Thanks so much.

1493
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:39,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to sacrifice to travel over there and

1494
01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 2: play it. Thanks Gary, always job. We have always enjoyed

1495
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 2: talking golf courses with you. Yeah, it'll be It'll be

1496
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 2: great to see what people think of the course. I'm

1497
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 2: interested in what the public perception is of Birkdale, but

1498
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:53,280
Speaker 2: it was a pleasure to talk about it with you.

1499
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Make sure to follow Joseph's work this week and

1500
01:24:57,280 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 1: next week for the Open Championship. He's going to have

1501
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 1: some good stuff coming up, all right. This episode of

1502
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:14,280
Speaker 1: Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam. Thank you Will.

1503
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying what we've been doing on Designing Golf,

1504
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:20,880
Speaker 1: I can guarantee that you would love what we're doing

1505
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 1: in Frida Egg Golf Club. Go to the Frida Egg

1506
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:28,639
Speaker 1: dot com slash membership to see what FEGC is all about.

1507
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 1: But basically it's Frida Egg Golf's membership. It's one hundred

1508
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: and twenty dollars a year and with your membership you

1509
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:40,720
Speaker 1: get a number of wonderful things, including exclusive content like

1510
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 1: our pretty extensive course profile library. These profiles are our

1511
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:49,840
Speaker 1: in depth explorations of golf courses that we love, and

1512
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 1: you get access to the thriving FEGC community. Lots of

1513
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:58,000
Speaker 1: avid golfers in there who just want to share their

1514
01:25:58,080 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 1: love of the game, Lots of people. Recently we launched

1515
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 1: the FEGC app which has been going really well. This

1516
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:08,280
Speaker 1: is a great way for members to interact, so lots

1517
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 1: of cool stuff happening in Frida Egg Golf Club again

1518
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:14,760
Speaker 1: the Frida Egg dot com slash membership. Come join us,

1519
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:17,720
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening, and we'll be back again soon

1520
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:19,559
Speaker 1: with another episode.