WEBVTT - Jay Blasi and Brett Hochstein 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.840 I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:04.960 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.920 And when I find my. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:08.960 Ball in a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.760 Friday Friday bride. 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.160 Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:44.800 We're here at the Seavil Golf Training Facility at Stanford 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.120 University Varsity Golf. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.560 Somebody just corrected me, So what the exact title is. 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.440 I've got a couple of architects going to have a 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.600 lively discussion about golf courses that were built in a 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:59.680 certain era and you know what to do with them, 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.040 and then we're gonna get to some questions. But I'm 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:06.520 joined by Jay Blasi, who's a second time guest, and 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:12.600 Brett Hochstein with Brett Hochstein Design, Golf Design. 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:15.160 You got rid of the golf I did? 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:20.080 It's just a hocksteye design shorter, very good. 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:25.520 Little alliteration almost it's not an alliteration, just a little round. 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.760 I guess I'm off to hot start. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.520 So for anybody that didn't get where we are, we're 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.960 at the Stanford Golf Practice Facility and they've got a 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:36.480 lengthy name. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:41.360 That I've watched. So today we're gonna do a. 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:45.600 Podcast about, you know, kind of the Dark Ages of 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.880 golf and the courses that we've got all over the 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.160 place and kind of what to do with them, as 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:57.680 as the kind of you're seeing a a condensing of 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.680 golf where a lot of golf courses are closed, some good, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.640 some bad, and you know, there's certainly a lot of 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.560 great courses, but there's also some that leave a lot 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:12.440 to be desired with the architecture, the design, and overall 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:17.600 the enjoyment of playing them. So, you know, I got 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.399 these two experts here, so hopefully I don't do much 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:25.360 of the talking. And uh yeah, first I wanted to 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.040 talk about, you know, kind of what these courses are 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.000 when they were designed and how they were you know, 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:33.040 how they were built. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.359 So you know, Jay, you want you want to kick 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:37.760 it off. 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:43.280 Well, I think when we talk about the Dark Ages 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.919 were often referring to the time, you know, you can 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.720 pick a starting point, but somewhere maybe from the fifties 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.919 to the nineties, or or more primarily from the fifties 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.359 to the eighties, and oftentimes it'd be golf courses that 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.079 for those of us who love Golden Age architecture and 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:09.000 some of the principles that go with it. These golf 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.200 courses were built and feature a lot of different elements 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.880 that don't contain a lot of those same principles, but 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:20.040 maybe more importantly, contained a lot of artificial elements, whether 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:25.679 that's artificial mounding, or they've created water features, whether those 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:31.320 are lakes or waterfalls, heavy landscaping, lots. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:32.440 Of earth moving, and whatnot. 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.480 Perhaps the other big thing is just due to advances 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:42.280 in technology, whether that's and earth moving equipment and turf 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:43.360 grass technology. 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:44.840 All of a sudden, these golf. 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:49.000 Courses started going to areas where golf wouldn't naturally occur, 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.120 so swamps and deserts and mountain sides. 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.080 And sites that weren't naturally conducive. 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.600 So now all of a sudden, you're using you're moving 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.600 lots of earthf you play a hole, then you get 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.120 on your cart path and drive a quarter mile, and 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.560 then you go play the next hole and whatnot. So 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.680 for those of us who love those principles, that that 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:13.480 period of time that we've referred to as the Dark 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.840 Ages is one that we'd love to forget or do 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:17.760 our best to undo. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:20.960 Yeah. 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:26.720 And sort of reason that it got to that point was. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:34.600 That we had all this new technology, big machines, advances 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:39.760 in maintenance, an agronomy where we could be greener. They 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:44.599 have faster skies, certain heights and caught and all that, 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:49.479 and people got a really and error for these new 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.520 features is they didn't have them before, and instead of 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.040 doing the right things with. 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.400 It, such as Alistair McKenzie. 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.559 Always talked about the bulldozer and you know what great 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:06.720 things could possibly do well, there really wasn't, due to say, 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.040 the depression and war time and all that. 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.960 There's not much lineage or action from the. 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.200 Golden Age all the way to the guys picking it 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:19.440 back up in the sixties, so there isn't necessarily that 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:21.279 sort of thought to say. 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.440 Let's use this for good and for artistry and for you. 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.359 Know, making conditions that are fun versus just esthetic and pleasing. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.520 And that's kind of a direction it all went, and 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.320 the way it was marketed and the way the public 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:38.440 sort of made it up, I. 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:39.479 Guess I see. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.120 I think the big one big shift that occurred as 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.720 well is if you think back to the early nineteen hundreds. 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.560 When golf courses were created, typically It was a group 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.640 of people getting together for the love of golf and 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.000 they had a common interest, and they set out to 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.360 build a golf course because they were interested in golf, 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.719 and they'd go find an appropriate site. Typically they'd go 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.359 serve for the right land that had good soils and 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.640 was gently ruling. During this period we referred to as 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.400 the Dark Age as some of that change and the 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:08.520 purpose for building a. 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:09.360 Golf course change. 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.200 So now somebody has a housing development, so the golf 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.520 course is really the engine to sell houses or vice. First, 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.000 we're building the resort a hotel, so the golf course 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.799 is the carrot to fill the hotel rooms. And when 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.320 the focus or the reasoning behind the golf course existed 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.800 and changed, some of the priorities changed as well. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:29.120 In terms of the architecture. 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:33.240 It's interesting I'm reading the links by Routert Hunter and 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.680 he talks about how the land for golf, like if 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.880 a club doesn't didn't buy the appropriate amount of land, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:42.599 the land price. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.680 Would go up so much after they built a course 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:46.400 because then. 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.919 The housing would come in, and then you know, the 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.680 model changed to where it was housing first, golf course second, 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.520 which you know, detriment to the golf and you know, 0:06:58.040 --> 0:06:59.960 long term it might be a detriment to the house. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.760 And also as we kind of saw with you know, 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:09.080 the the you know, consolidation, Sorry happened, but I'm curious. 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:15.360 It's something that Brett touched on, was the stop and ideas, Like, 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:20.440 not very often does an industry go through, like an 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.600 almost twenty year period where ideas and the flow of 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:24.480 ideas stop. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.160 And it had to. 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:32.080 Be very crippling because you saw there's the no real connection. 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:37.120 There are very few connections from architects in the fifties 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:42.160 to Alistair McKenzie. You know, one would be Robert Trent 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.440 Jones was connected to Stanley Thompson who was connected to 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.920 Alistair McKenzie, and that'd be one, but there weren't many. 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:55.760 Most of them spawned then from Robert Trent Jones, right, Yeah, 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:56.600 for the most part. 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.520 You could also say Jack Flunning came from McKenzie, but 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.760 his his mark was fairly limited. 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.200 I think I think the lineage point is a good one, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.360 and you know, relating to the depression and the war 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:15.600 and and. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.760 How that impacted things. 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.480 I would I may disagree that there was a stop 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.040 in ideas, and I think maybe a priority is shifted 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:31.600 if you look at golf courses built shortly after the war. 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:37.199 I think the guiding principle was functionality, you know, and 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.840 you know, we're worried about costs and to how we 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:45.960 build something just super efficiently as opposed to necessarily strategically. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:48.760 So it may. 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.000 Not be the same idea, but I don't know that 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.680 there was a completely total stop of ideas. And as 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.760 we evolve into the sixties, seventies, and eighties, there were 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.800 all sorts of ideas. Any many who love Golden Age 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.280 golf might just not like those ideas, you know, the 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.560 idea of adding lakes and adding waterfalls and adding flower 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.920 beds and mounting those were ideas. 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:14.000 There's a rise in popularity of professional golf also, so 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.600 that could be part of it where they started to 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.360 think we need to really you know, the the great 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.040 player all of a sudden was the forefront focus of golf, 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.120 like Ben Hogan, you know, and how do you challenge 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.240 a guy that? And it wasn't the right way to 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.080 challenge but they thought, you know, lakes and making them 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.680 go over, but it made it just inseparable for a 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:41.000 regular player. So how many of these courses are still 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.640 kind of out there and and and. 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.760 I think moving forward, what do you what can be 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.240 done with with these golf courses as we look at 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.760 you know, this architecture and golf is moving in a different. 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:57.640 Direction from these courses, and you. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.840 Know they're going to need updates with you know, when 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:01.560 irrigation systems come up. 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.600 Like what can we do with these? With these golf courses? 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.440 Well, the nonvotable answer is too many. 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.840 And I think I'd probably say for as far as 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.240 public golf and the accessible golf goes. 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:18.400 It's the majority of the horses. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.520 And I think that's really had a lot to do 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.920 with the shaping of our golf culture in. 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:25.880 General in this country. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.080 This is the focus on riding instead. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:35.280 Of walking, keeping track of your store, and just why 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.640 we played horses at the The pros are playing not 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.439 necessarily thinking about your own game. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:44.760 And what's the second Parliament? 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.240 And you know, what can be done with them? I 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.640 shouldn't ask so many questions. 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.679 Can they be improved for you know, low costs or 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.439 do they need to be you know, completely overhauled, Like. 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.400 What could you do with a you. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.760 Know, a residential course that stay has only got you know, 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:05.400 limited corridor space. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.600 So that's that's the one where it's a big challenge 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.440 that I was gonna say, it's really a spy site 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.439 specific mm hmm. We need reference where it's really narrow 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.120 corridors and the routing, which i'd say routing and greens 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.319 contouring goes are the two most impactful parts of design. 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.480 And when the routing is compromised with that limited, you're 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:33.840 already really up against it. And so is the cost 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.240 of going through and making each. 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.920 Individual whole, you know, interesting and compelling. 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.520 Is that going to make the course good enough and 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.280 interesting enough to outweigh the costs. 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:53.679 I'm not totally sure. There are other examples though, where. 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.720 The housing doesn't be quite as limited or the land 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:01.960 isn't limited. One example what thought off the top of 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.520 my head was of course, called the Kyote Club in 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.720 southeast Michigan that I grew up nearby. It was built 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.880 the late nineties. It's got, you know, all the mounding, 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:13.080 the pretty. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.800 Generic bunkering, not a lot of interest. I mean, you 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.640 can find yourself on hold twelve. 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.160 And be like, I'm kind of bored. 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.960 I should go stop the cart rating and get a beer. 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.560 But it's on a pretty nice gentle piece. 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:36.839 Of ground, mix of land. It's half open, half kind 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:37.760 of in the woods, so. 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:39.240 You can kind of go in and out of it. 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.360 That's the kind of example where you know, you could 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:48.480 easily fill some ponds, maybe rerouted, rebuild all the greens 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.480 and bunkers, and come up with something pretty interesting for 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.199 not that exorbit of a cost. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.040 I think that we've touched up a little bit on 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.880 some of the issues that are in play. And Brett 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.120 made a comment earlier which I think is critical for 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.960 everybody to understand, and that is that as it relates 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.880 to golf and golf courses, it's one hundred percent site specific. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:14.960 So the right solution at eve, even in the same market, 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.200 you know, it will take your Chicago even too. Golf 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.640 courses in Chicago land, the market could be drastically different 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.480 from from one to another, and therefore the solution that 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:31.160 the best possible solution could be drastically different from one 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.360 to the other, even in the same market. To to 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:41.479 Brett's point, I think the potential for improvement is largely 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:47.000 based upon the land and the constraints that were placed 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:51.160 on it. So housing is a key constraint. Road crossings, Uh, 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.880 you know, the routing of the golf course full length 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.640 concrete cut pass that you touched on earlier, Andy that 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.040 they're going to need in movements golf courses just in order. 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:03.360 To survive the long term. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:06.880 Just like your house, you need to reinvest and so 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.840 the irrigation system oftentimes needs to be redone. 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:12.719 That's your biggest single investment. 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.120 So if and when it's time to redo the irrigation system, 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.960 that's a great time to look at is there anything 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.040 else that we should be doing well? Is now the 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.400 time to do bunkers and greens or could change anything 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:25.240 else around. 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.040 And if you have a situation where you have a 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:28.720 great piece of. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.040 Ground, but the layout that's on it just isn't very special, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.800 doesn't take advantage of the features very well, the natural 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:40.239 features of the land, and it's due for infrastructure investment, 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:41.000 that's the. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.280 Right time to get in and take a new look 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:44.680 and see could we. 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.320 Serve the community better by creating something that relates and 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.200 it's more fun. The other thing is we know that 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.200 contraction is going to occur, so there might be an 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.840 opportunity in a number of places where you've got eighteen 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.520 twenty seven holes now that they end up being better 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:04.640 served as a nine. 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.280 Hole facility or a twelve hole facility, something. 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.760 Different, where maybe you take the good land and reserve 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.160 it for golf and the other can become housing, or 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.160 it can become a park or open space. 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.560 Or something else. And soccer field you can kill two 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.480 birds with one stone. Mm. That's I mean, I think 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:21.120 that's the thing. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:25.440 I more I've gotten into this, the more I've traveled, 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.880 is like, you know, the dearth of bad options for 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:33.360 the public versus good options is it's it's frightening, Like 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.640 you know, like you go to I go to a city, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.000 like I play in Chicago, and like there's really only 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.880 like five public golf courses that I would like actually 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.560 enjoy going playing, and I play those five all the time. 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.120 When I go play in public golfing. 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.840 But like, you know, so many of them I've once 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:53.160 I've seen about eight holes. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:54.840 I'm like, get me out of there. 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.000 I don't want I don't want to do this, And 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.800 so many of them are constricted by like I mean, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.600 like car paths always stick out to me, Like it's 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.040 just like it's hard to almost take a. 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.320 Photo without getting car path in it. Some of these 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.760 places they cut down in middle of the fairway, But 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:12.240 where would. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.880 You say, you know, and I know it's all site specific, 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.560 but is it inside fifty yards? 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.320 If you had a limited budget. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.800 Where you could you do the most, you know, create 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.360 the most interest for the most bang for your buck. 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.480 Say somebody had, you know, budget to do a little 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.160 bit of work, where would you focus. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:37.280 The most around the green? That's because that is where. 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.080 A lot of these golf courses during that period of 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:45.280 time are very more dimensional. You're nine times out of 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.720 ten it's an aerial shot. If you miss the green, 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:48.680 you're punished. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.400 You're either in rough or a bunker, and in those 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.000 positions your only shot out is a sandwich. Right, So 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.440 your approach shot is repetitive all through the entire and 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.440 then your recovery shot is repetitive. 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:07.560 So by simply redoing green complexes, you can introduce strategy. 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.119 You can introduce variety. 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.120 You can have shots that you can land the ball 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:14.720 short and feed the ball into the green, and you 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.320 can feed it in from the side, or you can 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:17.160 have a backstaff. 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.520 You can have short grass around the greens. 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.439 And now you can use you know, the potter all 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.320 the way up to a hybrid and everything in between. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.000 So you can add so much more strategy there. So 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:30.960 if you only had one place to spend your money, 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:31.280 that's it. 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.399 To Brett's point earlier, even that might not cross the 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.200 threshold if the routing is totally screwed up and you've 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.520 got a whole where you play out two hundred and 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.240 eighty yards and then turn right and got a hundred. 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.520 Degree ankle and go the wrong way, you know, but 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.280 the bang for your bucks at the green complex, am 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:51.720 Lie Brett. 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.840 What do you think are some you know, to go 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.280 along with like greens, but what are some other like 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.359 of the most important design features that create like, you know, 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.399 kind of like a sustainable golf model and playable you know, 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.000 obviously fun, but like outside of you know, interesting greens, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.199 what would you say are some of the you know, 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.920 most important parts of design to creating a place that's 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.480 really fun to play for the public and you know 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.960 you can get people around and that kind of. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.960 I think, well, yeah, definitely of the greens, and then 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:30.639 going backwards from there, creating more width is. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.920 Uh is one way to do it. 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:40.000 And less uh sort of a maintain rough, not not 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:40.560 a big. 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:41.400 Family maintained rough. 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:45.600 Really I'd rather just be more short grass makes it 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.000 more interesting and uh, you know it's a the point 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.680 you bring up, it'll uh helps get people around faster. 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.080 It helps people enjoy the game a bit more. 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.520 And even if they're not necessarily thinking about which side 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.120 and a fair way to be on the game an advantage. 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:03.679 You know, they're they're getting. 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.679 Around and they're having a good time as opposed to 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.879 happing it out under a tree, you. 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:09.840 Know some deep. 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:10.879 Whine or rough or whatever. 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.040 Thinking about bunkers in the interesting way is. 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.960 Just that they're. 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.960 Or the mid handicapper making them sort of think and 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:32.280 taking on challenge is if you step a bottle of 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:36.240 tea and you go to address the ball, then you 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.080 kind of step back and think, what the way second 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.400 should I be doing this? I think that's a great 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:45.840 way to engage the golfer, make a you have fun. 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:51.840 In my opinion, it's like, yeah, I think it's so 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:53.400 important always. 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:58.359 To you know, not forget like the thrill of golfer. Everybody, 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.120 you know, like the high handicap her still wants to 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.679 feel the challenge of taking it over a bunker and 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.679 you know it's a it's but then you also have 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.000 to weigh that with like challenging. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.679 And that's like, I think placement a bunker. How do 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.320 you guys go about placing bunkers? 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:20.240 Because I've read where some architects do it formulatively, and 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:22.240 it's like, you know, it's two hundred and eighty yards, 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.199 We're going to put a bunker right here, and some 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.680 guys just throw them out there or want to say, 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.000 I just put them where it shouldn't be. 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.399 You know, well, I wanted to follow up or piggyback 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:35.800 on what you guys were just talking about earlier in 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:40.320 terms of, you know, still providing a challenge to somebody, 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:41.520 but can you do it. 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.520 In a in a way that is more sustainable. 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.760 So if you look at many of those golf courses 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.119 built during that period of time, you might have a 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:55.360 cluster of five or six bunkers all in one grouping 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.160 in a landing area, right, and then you look at it. 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:02.000 One simple thing is to say, okay, well, of that giant, 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.920 you know, sixty yard area that's all sand and broken 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:05.520 up into. 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:09.040 Six bunkers, there's only a five yard area that's actually 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:09.840 impact in. 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.639 The strategy of the whole. If you can get rid. 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:16.639 Of the other stuff, now you've simplified the maintenance practices 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.800 you've maintained or enhanced the actual strategic value of it. 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:22.880 So those are some of the little things you can 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.000 go look at and existing golf course and. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.000 Say, hey, these are ways that we can improve it 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:29.400 for everyday play. 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.040 Of course in Chicago did that They took out like 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:34.000 it's called harbor side. 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:37.439 They took out like an un I mean, they removed 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:39.280 probably about sixty percent of the bumpers. 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.000 I think if you if you were to do an 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.800 inventory of golf courses built in the nineteen eighties, you 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.240 could probably reduce the sand on ninety percent of those 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.960 courses by at least fifty percent without having negative without 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.320 having a negative impact on strategy, and maybe having a 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:56.320 positive impact on strategy well. 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:01.800 And pace of play, oh right, ganging around that's more sustainable. 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.080 You can get more rounds out, you know, people are 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.600 even playing more when they play faster. And then also 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:09.320