1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Blink 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: and you'll miss your treasure. Blink again, and you'll realize 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: that the truth you thought was safely hidden has materialized, 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: some ungainly part of it revealed under new conditions. We 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: all know the adage that one lie begets the next deception. 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: Takes commitment, vigilance, and a very good memory. To keep 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: the truth buried, you must tend to it for years 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: and years. My job was to pile on sand, fistfuls, shovelfuls, bucketfuls, 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: whatever the moment necessitated, in effort to keep my mother's 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: secret buried. That's Adrian Roder reading from her just released 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: memoir Wild Game, My Mother, Her Lover and Me. Adrian's 12 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: is a story of being coerced, seduced into the keeping 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: of a powerful and day injurious secret. What happens when 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: a child is brought into her mother's private world, When 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: a daughter is given access to her mother's innermost life 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: in exchange for absolute loyalty and fidelity. I'm Danny Shapiro, 17 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: and this is family secrets. The secrets that are kept 18 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 19 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. Well. I was born in 20 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: New York City, but when I was very young, my 21 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: parents divorced and we moved from New York, my brother 22 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: and I we moved from New York to Massachusetts. And 23 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: I would say that Cape Cod has always felt like 24 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: the home base for me. I go over that bridge 25 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: and I have sort of a have lost dog reaction 26 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: to the briny air and everything else. I really feel 27 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: home there. So just describe Cape Cod more for somebody 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: who's never been there. Cape Cod it is um just 29 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful slices of the country. But 30 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: Cape Cud to me, it's um. It's a very sensuous place. 31 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: It's um. I think of the sand and the seafood 32 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: and what's below the water. I spent so much of 33 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: my childhood in boats, sort of varying across the harbor 34 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: from one of our houses or my mother's house, but 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: we'd go fishing and clamming, and it just really sort 36 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: of where most of my happy memories are. Remember the 37 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: big T shirt in the early seventies was happiness is 38 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: low Tide on Cape Cod, and we all believe that 39 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: that's what we did. Early in the book, you describe 40 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: in a way the first secret I would say, which 41 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: is I don't know if you would characterized exactly as 42 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: the secret, but um, the loss of your brother. I 43 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: don't actually remember either of my parents sitting down and 44 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: telling me that I had a brother and his what 45 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: his name was, and how he died. So I do 46 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: remember coming upon it a bit as a secret, and 47 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: yet there were photos of him around, and there were 48 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: um items of his in our home, and I think 49 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: it was probably just a very painful thing from my 50 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: parents to talk about. This idea of secrets that aren't 51 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: completely buried, but that we also don't fully know about 52 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: runs throughout Adrian's story. These secrets exist in the landscape 53 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 1: that we can apprehend but aren't really supposed to touch upon. 54 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: As a child, she was always aware of a core 55 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: sadness that her mother carried, a sorrow that floated in 56 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: the very air of her childhood homes. Adrian is one 57 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: of three children. Her oldest brother died at two and 58 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: a half by choking on a piece of meat. Her 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: mother was already pregnant at the time with Adrian's second brother, 60 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: and then there was Adrian, born four years later on 61 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: her eldest late brother's birthday, So throughout her childhood, Adrian's 62 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: birthday always came with a whiff of sadness. She tried, 63 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: as children do, to assemble the bits of information she could, 64 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: while feeling that somehow the loss of her brother had 65 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: something to do with her. I'm always struck by the 66 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: stories that we make up as children, especially in the 67 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: absence of knowledge or you know, where there's some sense 68 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: that their sadness we don't understand, or there's an absence 69 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: we don't understand, or there's some story that we don't know, 70 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: and it's just human nature as children to make up 71 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: stories to take the place of those stories, and they're 72 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: almost never good. I think those kinds of stories kind 73 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: of boomerang back on the child as this is my 74 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: fault or you take it on absolutely, And honestly, I 75 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: think we do that as adults too. I mean, I 76 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: think it's also much about, you know, our own lens 77 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: or our own feelings. So you say hello to someone 78 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: and they don't return it, and you make up a 79 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: story for why they didn't do it, rather than oh, 80 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: she didn't hear me, or you know. I think, I mean, 81 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: I think it's something we all have to be careful 82 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: of but as children certainly, I mean, there's so much 83 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: for trying to figure out right, and it's so confusing, 84 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: and also people aren't always being straightforward with you. Adrian's 85 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: parents split up when she's eight years old. Her mother 86 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: is already years deep into a relationship with a man 87 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: who's also married, and it takes some time and some 88 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: doing to extricate themselves from their spouses so they can 89 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: find their way toward each other. But then, just before 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: they marry, her soon to be husband has a series 91 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: of four profoundly debilitating strokes. So life for Adrian's mother 92 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: suddenly looks very different from what she had thought it 93 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: would be. Instead of this beautiful romance, now she has 94 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: an ailing husband, and Adrian is thrust into the role 95 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: of the adult, waking her mother each morning. For carpool, 96 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: describe a little bit the the home in Chestnut Hill. 97 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: So you move from more more modest circumstances into from 98 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: completely modest circumstances. I mean, I shared a bedroom with 99 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: my brother. You know, I could, I'm sure, although I 100 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: haven't been there in years, reach across and touch him, 101 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, if I needed our twin beds weren't that 102 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: far apart, and we moved into this mansion in Chestnut Hill, 103 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: which had seventeen bedrooms and nine bathrooms and was just 104 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: simply the most enormous thing I'd ever seen in my life. Um, 105 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: And the story we were told, which I think is 106 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: probably true, but I don't know, is that. You know, 107 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: my stepfather had been trying to sort of sell it 108 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: or get rid of it for years, and quite simply, 109 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: no one wanted a house that big. So in the 110 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 1: end we rented many of the rooms on the top floor. 111 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: I mean it was during the seventies. Just heating the 112 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: thing I can't even imagine. But no, my I mean 113 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: I actually could do my gymnastic routine in my bedroom, 114 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, cartwheel, cartwheel back in spring. Um, it was enormous, 115 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: and it was scary. I mean it was actually really 116 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: scary in the beginning. Um, My brother was on a 117 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: different floor than I was, on a different end of 118 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: the house. My mother was down a very long corridor. Um. 119 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, you know New York apartments, you can kind 120 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: of shouting, anyone will come. We lived in Chestnut Hill 121 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: and we would go to the cape. My mom had 122 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: a tiny cottage on the Cape Um where we would go. 123 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: My father would also come up from New York and 124 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: rent a house and spend summers on the Cape. So 125 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: we spent July with my mother's in August with my father, 126 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: and we would also shuttle back to New York or 127 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: Connecticut to visit my father on a lot of weekends. 128 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: Into this world comes this man who in your book 129 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: you refer to as Ben. So the story really begins 130 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: on August night on Cape cod In and I was 131 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: fourteen years old and I was you know, it was 132 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: a late it was late at night. I was sound 133 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: asleep um in my own bedroom, and at some point 134 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: in time the door opened and my mother came in 135 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: and she said Rennie, which is my nickname. She said, Rennie, 136 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: wake up, and I so remember not wanting to wake up. 137 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: I was sort of half thinking about a boy I 138 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: had been kissing earlier on the Bay beach Um and 139 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: I rolled away and she said Ben South or just 140 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: kissed me. And of course with that, my eyes popped 141 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: open because Ben South there was my stepfather's best friend. 142 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: And Ben South was married, which you know, of course 143 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: my mother was married too, but they were a couple 144 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: friends and you know, I didn't know them well, but 145 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: I knew them. I knew who they were. And what 146 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: I didn't know was that evening would mark the beginning 147 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: of just an epic extramarital love affair that my mother 148 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: brought me along on. But at the time it was 149 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: so thrilling and so seductive and so magical. I just 150 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: adored my mother, and I recognized it even in that moment, 151 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: the moment it happened, as um, one of those moments 152 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: that everything changes. So I had gone to bed as 153 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: my mother's daughter, and I woke up as her best 154 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: friend and confidante and sort of co conspirator. And it 155 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: was just it was like some you know, mother daughter 156 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: version of Thelma and Louise, Like I was the girl 157 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: behind the wheel of the getaway car, just waiting for 158 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: her to fly into the car and for me to 159 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: jump on the guess. I mean, it was just it 160 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: was so exciting at first. Earlier that evening, the house 161 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: is filled with what seems a happy, boozy cacophony of 162 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: drinks and food. Adrian's mother, whose name is Malibar, is 163 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: a romantic figure. Malibar. She was born in Bombay and 164 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: named after Malabar Hill. She's a glamorous, beautiful woman who 165 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: was both in control and out of control of everything 166 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: all at once, making food, entertaining, pouring drinks. This is 167 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: not the sad Malabar sleeping through carpool, but quite another. Well, 168 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Malabar very much lives up to this grand 169 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: name of hers. I mean, she was incredibly glamorous, She 170 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: was charismatic. She also happened to be just an astonishing cook. 171 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: So she had studied at La cordon Bleu, she worked 172 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: in the test kitchen of Time Life Foods of the World, 173 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: and she had had a food column for the Boston 174 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,359 Speaker 1: Globe my whole childhood. And she would throw these fabulous 175 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: parties and make these fabulous meals. She was clearly, you know, 176 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: a narcissist and clearly had dubious maternal instincts. But she 177 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: also was loving and fun, which makes it complicated too. 178 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: She wasn't you know, There was nothing Mummy dearest about her. 179 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: It wasn't She wasn't mean. Adrian stepfather Charles, who has 180 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: now paralyzed on his right side, is in high contrast 181 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 1: to his old friend, the hale and healthy Ben Souther. 182 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: If my stepfather Charles was all in his head. Ben 183 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: was incredibly physical. I mean he was also successful businessman 184 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: and all those things, and very smart. But what you 185 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: really noticed about Ben was, you know, he had to 186 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: be doing something. He had to be building something. He 187 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: had to be fishing, he had to be hunting, he 188 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: had to be pulling a boat in or out of 189 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: the water. He was just always going, and he loved life, 190 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: and he was very enthusiastically and energetically engaged with whatever 191 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: he was doing, whereas Charles would rather be reading a 192 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: lovely book and have some quiet. What do you think 193 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: your mother was thinking when she first came into your 194 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: room and said Ben's south or kissed me? Um, do 195 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: you think was she bursting with the need to tell someone? 196 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: This is like the big question of all times, Like 197 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: what was she thinking? And I I'm guessing she'd had 198 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: way too much to drink. I'm guessing she was incredibly excited. 199 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: It's also within the realm of possibility that perhaps something 200 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: had happened a little bit earlier, or she knew a 201 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: little bit more than I knew, and was planning ahead 202 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: and knew that she needed my help. I mean, that's 203 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: sort of more calculating than I've ever thought about it before. 204 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: But that's certainly something my mother might have done. But 205 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: it's interesting because of course it was you know, it's 206 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: my childhood, so it seemed normal to me. It didn't 207 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: seem you know. Of course, now I'm just appalled by it, 208 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: and especially because I have a daughter who will be 209 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: fourteen years old when this book comes out, just fourteen, 210 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: and I look at her and I think, is there 211 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: any moment that I can imagine, imagine involving her in 212 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: something like this, And of course the answer is just no. 213 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: But it's it's it's heightened my curiosity about why she 214 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: did what she did because it seems so much worse 215 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 1: now that I have my own child than it ever 216 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: did before. Because as I said it, you know, it 217 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: was somewhat exciting and thrilling at the time. Um, but 218 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: it's it just seems terrible to me now. Well, as 219 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: you say, I think our childhoods, we normalize our childhood. 220 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: It's whatever they are, they're they're the world that we know. 221 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: And so aside from being sort of thrilling and being 222 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, charged with being complicit in something that felt exciting, um, 223 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: it also I would imagine it felt like, oh, well, 224 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: maybe this is what happens, and you know, maybe parents, 225 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: maybe parents can find these kinds of things in their children. Well, 226 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: it also just it made me feel very special and 227 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: close to her. And one of the things about my 228 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: mother was, you know, you could be on her good 229 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: side or her bad side, you could be in or out. 230 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: And I think in that way, um, my brother and 231 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: I were always in some kind of competition, not as overtly, 232 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily so overtly, but in some way just to 233 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: sort of receive her favor and her good wishes. That 234 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: was just a small bit of sunshine and love. Definitely 235 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: was a pie in our case. I mean, there was 236 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: only so much and we we battled for it, and 237 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: sometimes he was ahead and sometimes I was ahead, and 238 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: this certainly put me ahead for a while. We're going 239 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: to take a quick break. So then what happens, How 240 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: does this kind of proceed? Your mother and Ben and 241 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: you're being being part of their affair or helping them 242 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: to go off together, covering for them. So, um, my 243 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: mother quickly set up a ruse for the affair because 244 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: it involved I mean, it was an affair that was 245 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: carried out in plain sight. These were two couple friends. 246 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: So my mother, as a said, was just a brilliant 247 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: cook and Ben was a recreational hunter and fisherman. And 248 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: so the idea that they had was to make a 249 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: wild game cookbook together and this was met with delight 250 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: from all parties. The spouses were into it too. It 251 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: just seemed like great fun. And so, you know, Ben 252 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: and Lily, his wife, would show up at least monthly 253 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: with some big hunk of meat um bore or deer 254 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: or venison, you know, not always big. One time brought 255 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: a squirrel that they'd hit on the way, and my 256 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: mother would transform it. I mean, she just would transform 257 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: these meats into you know, her beautiful delicacies, and we'd 258 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: have these feasts. And my role um at the end 259 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: of these evenings, and there had been a lot of 260 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: alcohol consumed, was to suggest a walk or a constitutional 261 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: as my mother called it. And you know, the whole time, 262 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: we all knew that the spouses wouldn't come. They were 263 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: both in frail health. So my stepfather had had his strokes. 264 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: Then's wife, Lily was a cancer survivor. Um, no one 265 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: was in good health, and so I would suggest a 266 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: walk and we would merrily swing out the door and 267 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: go up the road. We were often sing um okaka 268 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: Katie and I see the moon, and the moon sees me. 269 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: And then at some point we would turn off. My 270 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: mother had a second property that was just a small 271 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: house that she sometimes rented and um but was often unoccupied. 272 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: And I would peel off and they would go visit, 273 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: and I would wait for them on a rock down 274 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: at the bay beach below. The houses were at the 275 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: edge of the property, and and it was, you know, 276 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: I was what was to suspect. I was like a 277 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: teenage chaperone. I mean, you wouldn't suspect if you who 278 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: your husband or your wife was going off with um 279 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: a fourteen year old president on fifteen and sixteen and seventeen. 280 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: Because it went on for a while. As it went on, 281 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: did your feelings shifted all? I didn't get in touch 282 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: with guilt, if that's what you're asking, which I'm not 283 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 1: sure it is, but um, I know. I mean mostly 284 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: I was so happy to see my mother happy. And 285 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: also I sort of bought hook line and sinker a 286 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: story that I was told, which was essentially that no 287 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: one meant for this to happen, like they fell in love, 288 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: and who can help that this was not planned, This 289 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: was not intended. They fell madly in love, and that 290 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: that they would no sooner. Above all, they did not 291 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: want to hurt their spouses. They loved their spouses. They 292 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: did not wish to hurt these people. And to that end, 293 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: they sort of presented it to me almost as they 294 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: were sacrificing. So rather than leave these people and run 295 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: off together, which is what they'd love to do, they 296 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: were gonna um do the noble thing and stick to 297 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: their marital vows and wait till death do this part. 298 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: And I think they always hoped that they would be 299 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: together someday. But that was that was the story I 300 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: was told, and for certainly the first several years I 301 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: bought it the whole. Charles dies five years into Malibar 302 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: and Ben's affair, and when he dies, Malibar is not 303 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: by his side. This is the first time that Adrian, 304 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: who is now a sophomore in college, experiences a real 305 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: pang of consciousness and awakening. She feels terrible that after 306 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: being so good to them, they meaning Adrian and her mother, 307 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: had not been as good to him. This haunted her 308 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: for a long time. It still haunts her. Charles had 309 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in the hospital when he 310 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: had HISS, and he was not heroic about it. He 311 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: let us know how scary he found it, how much 312 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: he hated to be there, and so when he was 313 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: in the hospital, and especially this is the adult me talking. 314 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: You know, if we're my husband, if it were someone 315 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: I loved, a friend, you know, I would want to 316 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,479 Speaker 1: be there, and we weren't there. So then what happens 317 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: after Charles's death. My mother had a very hard time 318 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: for you know, a period of time. And I think 319 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: also you know, she was still in love with Ben, 320 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: but I think it also unmoored her because now the 321 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: situation wasn't balanced. Suddenly she was the third wheel. Were 322 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: they going to continue this sort of friendship, which they 323 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: kind of did, and how to keep the whole charade 324 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: afloat with this new situation. I had confided in different 325 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: people along the way, and um, what I will say 326 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: is that holding these secrets was so high stakes and 327 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: lying was so exhausting. But the secret itself, like the 328 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: the outcome if it were discovered, was so significant that 329 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: I was terrified. So the first time I told someone 330 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: was before my stepfather died, and it was, you know, 331 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: my childhood best friend, and I think she was the 332 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: very first person I told. And then, you know, a 333 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: couple of years later, she started going out with my 334 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: brother and suddenly he knew, and then my father my 335 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: mother found out that my brother's girlfriend knew, and then 336 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: she blamed my brother, and you know, I mean, it 337 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: was just that type of situation was sort of happening 338 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: and ripe and terrified me. So when I was in college, 339 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: Um did it lose some of its power? It did, 340 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: but then I would get pulled back in at different moments, 341 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: so you know, I wouldn't really think about it much. 342 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: I would, you know, I even consciously remember thinking, I'm 343 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: getting away from this. I am moving away from this. 344 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna live my own life. I'm doing my own thing. 345 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: When you say it was terrifying, you know, in that 346 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: sort of house of cards kind of way, what was 347 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: what was most terrifying about it? What would have been 348 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: the worst outcome if that secret had come out? I 349 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: think what I felt was that I had huge abandonment fears, 350 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: and I think I felt that, um, I could very easily, 351 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: she could cut me loose somehow, I don't you know. 352 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: That was certainly how I experienced it, Like the fear 353 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: was so enormous. Um and I think, you know, I 354 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: was whatever combination of nature and nurture. I think by 355 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: nature I was a people pleaser and by nurture because 356 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: of my parents divorce, you know, I just did have 357 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: those early childhood abandonment issues. So you know, I was 358 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: a barnicle. My mother was the rock. I mean I 359 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: really clung to her starting from when I was quite young. 360 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: And so the idea that she might think I had 361 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: betrayed her secret, I mean, it just nothing could seem worse. Yeah, 362 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: that's so, That's so powerful and so amazing because it 363 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: really was always all about the two of you, Yes, 364 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't about other people finding out. It 365 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: wasn't about consequences of other people finding out. Really, it 366 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 1: was about that primary relationship, all about the two of us. 367 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: As an antidote to her own neediness and feeling like 368 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: a third wheel with the Suzers, Malibar does what only 369 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: a good narcissist could. She devises a plan to have 370 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: a really big, festive family joint vacation with the Suzers. 371 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: She rents a beautiful house on Harbor Island in the Bahamas. 372 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: The Souzers aren't close with their grown children, and so 373 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: the idea is that if Ben sees Malibar in that 374 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: happy family environment, he'll see how delightful it can be, 375 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 1: and then they'll be able to continue you as they 376 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: had been. So Ben and Lily's two kids arrive, and 377 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: Adrian's brother arrives with her best friend who is now 378 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: his girlfriend. A whole collision of people come and was 379 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: in this collision, another stunning layer develops. Adrian falls in 380 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: love with Ben Souther's son Jack. We're going to pause 381 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: for a moment. We're back. So Adrian and Jack Saucer, 382 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: the son of Ben Southerer, enter into a serious romantic relationship. 383 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: I actually think this is almost embarrassing. I actually think 384 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: we have sort of outsmart at them that they don't 385 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: know about this, that we are having a secret relationship, 386 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: Like I've out Malabard Malabar and I am for three 387 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: or four months. Jack and I see each other. Jack 388 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: lives in San Diego, California. I am in college in 389 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: New York. He's ten years older. Um, and we sort 390 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: of do this, you know, covert back and forth trips 391 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: Um to see each other, and we really do fall 392 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: in love. And all the while I am not telling 393 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: him that my mother and his father are involved in 394 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: a love affair. I was a player in her show, 395 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: and some part of me I took it on, and 396 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: you know, that was really a corrupting moment. The part 397 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: about about then keeping the secret from Jack, about keeping 398 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: the secret and from from Maliba, well they I think 399 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: they obviously probably knew all along, and they found out 400 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: very quickly. So I wasn't so worried about keeping the 401 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: secret from Malabar. I think keeping um the truth about 402 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: our family's situation from Jack as we got more and 403 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: more serious than I moved in with him, and um, 404 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, despite the fact that I was only twenty 405 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: three and I had never been marriage minded in my life, 406 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden, I found myself engaged 407 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: and we are sort of headed towards this alter and 408 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: I had, you know, in sort of a lame way. 409 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: And I should add that Jack does not remember it 410 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: the same way. But I, you know, I have lots 411 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: of journals to corroborate things that I did. You know, 412 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: I did always sort of tell me not I've got 413 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 1: this secret that you know, probably you don't want to know, 414 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: but let me know. And he didn't want to know. 415 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: He was sort of a verse to, um, you know, 416 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: things that might be traumatic, as some people are. Sometimes 417 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: in life, it seems there are dance steps we simply 418 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: begin to take as if they'd been choreographed, especially for us, 419 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: moves that would seem unthinkable, except that what we've really 420 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: entered into is history on repeat. As Ben and Malabar 421 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: continue their years long love affair, Adrian and Jack begin 422 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: to plan their own wedding. So you and Jack Mary 423 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: before we get married. Um, and just a few months 424 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: before we get married, the unthinkable happens and Lily finds 425 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: out about everything. And how does that happen? I believe 426 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: that Ben thought she was depressed, because I think we 427 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: all thought Lily knew all along. I think we all 428 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 1: just you couldn't be in a room with all this chemistry, 429 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: with all this energy, this charged particles that just flew 430 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: between Ben and Malibar and not think that something was 431 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: going on, because it seemed like everyone thought that something 432 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: was going on, And it seemed it just seemed all 433 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: of us that she must know. And so I think 434 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: Ben decided to tell her simply to reassure her that 435 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: now that Charles was gone, he wasn't actually going to 436 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,959 Speaker 1: leave her and just run off with my mother. He 437 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: wanted to reassure her that no, he would be you know, 438 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: yes he was in love with Malibar, but no, he 439 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: would be, you know, a dutiful husband. And she shocked 440 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: everyone by um rather than being some sort of guilted flower, saying, 441 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: you know, the hell this is going to keep going. 442 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: And she pretty much told Ben that his name would 443 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: be mud in their community, and he was a very 444 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: popular person in their community of Plymouth, Massachusetts, and that 445 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: it was going to stop immediately. And two my great 446 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: shock and my mother's even greater shock, Ben dropped her 447 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: like a hot potato immediately. And this was all perhaps 448 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: three or four months before we were to get married. 449 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: So we got a call Jack and I got a 450 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: call um in California from Lily. And one of the 451 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: things about Lily was part of her cancer treatment involved 452 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: radiation pellets in her chest from long ago, so her 453 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: vocal cord was atrophying at the same time as Ben 454 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: was becoming deaf. So it was just this torturous situation 455 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: of she couldn't speak, he couldn't hear, and she got 456 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: on the phone to start to tell her son Jack 457 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: what had happened, and she couldn't say it. So then 458 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: Ben got on the phone, and of course I perked up, 459 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: because this was this moment I'd sort of been fearful 460 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: of and expecting or not expecting, you know, since I'd 461 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: gotten together with Jack. Was you know, how was he 462 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: going to feel when he found out that his father 463 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: loved my mother and was going to leave his mother 464 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: and so on, and and yet, as I was overhearing 465 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: this booming voice on this phone, it was not the 466 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: conversation that I was expecting. And Ben was apologizing for 467 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: all the things he had done wrong and how what 468 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: a horrible mistake this relationship was and all of this, 469 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: and I just, I mean, it was one of the 470 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: most surreal conversations. And of course immediately I started to 471 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: wonder if Malibar knew yet, like if she already knew, 472 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: or that they'd called us for a first or had 473 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: he already called and broken it off with her, and 474 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: so almost I mean, that's one of the things that 475 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: I remember so clearly. It's just how quickly I went 476 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: from my own concerns to hers. I mean, just there 477 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: was such a blurring of boundaries in our relationship. So 478 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: Adrian and Jack's wedding becomes you guessed it about Malabar, 479 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: and Malabar's one last great opportunity to show Ben Sauzer 480 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: just what he's missing. How could it not, Jackson, My 481 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: wedding becomes this incredibly monumentally important day for my mother, 482 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: and so my wedding is totally usurped because it's it's 483 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: her big day. It's the last chance she might be 484 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: able to see Ben and change his mind. Um. And 485 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: so all of a sudden, you know, even though the 486 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: truth has come out, nothing has changed, because we're worried 487 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: about her dress, we're thinking about the menu according to 488 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: like his his deduction were you know, it's it's all 489 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: going in that same vein. And so all that happens, 490 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: and there is some kind of reconnection at the wedding. 491 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: Despite everyone agreeing that there would be no dancing between them, 492 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: there was a dance between my mother and Ben at 493 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: this wedding, and you know, it was electric and it 494 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: was just it just everything happened, um. And there's a 495 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: photo of them together that you know, it wasn't a 496 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: picture of me and my groom on my mother's entryway 497 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: hall afterwards, it was a picture of her and Ben. 498 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: Did Jack feel um the traitor, upset that you had 499 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: kept that secret from him? He didn't. I mean, I 500 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: think probably over the years he probably has come to 501 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: feel that more that way, He's not said that to me. 502 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,959 Speaker 1: I mean, at the time, he was so angry at 503 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: his father and at my mother, and especially just enraged 504 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: that they would involve me as a child and sort 505 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: of how confusing that was for me. And he believed 506 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: that more than I believed, because I felt like I 507 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: felt I should you know, he must be angry. But 508 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: I also think I felt hugely relieved, because I think 509 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: the problem with keeping a secret is, of course you're 510 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: never fully seen or known, right, And I think my 511 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: deep hope at that moment was that he would, you know, 512 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: see me for all the flaws, for what I had 513 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: done on every level, and then actually still want to 514 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: know me and want to be in this real relationship 515 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: with me. And I think instead what happened was there 516 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: was very little examination of my culpability or involvement, and 517 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: a lot of just you know, they were horrible people, 518 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: which you know, I think he still believes to this 519 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: day and in his mind they were, and that's fine. 520 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 1: But I don't think we ever reflected on what it 521 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: meant that we'd probably been in a relationship for two 522 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: years at that point and you know, I had, I 523 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: had put my mother ahead of him. There's so many 524 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: interesting things about that, because one thing that strikes me is, 525 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's a limit to how much rage anyone 526 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: can feel it at any given moment, or how many 527 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: people you can can be mad at, you know, in 528 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: a given moment. And it sounds like he was full 529 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: up with you know, his father and your mother, very possibly, 530 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: but also that that would be a very kind of 531 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: compassionate and kind of normal response to think you were 532 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: a child. No, you're not a child anymore, but you 533 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: were a child. The person who made this choice was 534 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: a child, or didn't even make the choice. The person 535 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: that was you know, kind of co opted and brought 536 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: into the situation was a child. And I think, I mean, 537 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, if this was someone else, I think I'd 538 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: have much more compassion. We're always hardest on ourselves, of course, um, 539 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: but I think you know, in all my relationships since then. 540 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I just I feel like there's been such 541 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: a a pivot in my life from that moment of 542 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: wanting to become, you know, fully a truth teller, fully 543 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: being seen. I mean, I would rather anyone who loves 544 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: me knows, you know, every flaw and bad thought and 545 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: unkind thing I might do and still love me, rather 546 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: than some polished version that's simply not true. A huge pivot. 547 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: I find this extraordinarily moving, because that's what can happen 548 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: when secrets are finally aired out right. Adrian goes from 549 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: keeping a secret for the better part of a lifetime 550 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: to wanting to be seen and known and feeling the 551 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: power and grace in being seen and known. Though this process, 552 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: like many journeys to a kind of grace, does not 553 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: happen overnight. Adrian experiences a huge and profound depression shortly 554 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: after she and Jack Mary. She enters into a state 555 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: of despair for several years and hits a bottom from 556 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: which she begins to realize that she needs to change 557 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: in order to have a more fully authentic life. I 558 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: wasn't living my own life, right, I mean, I just 559 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: hadn't been since I was fourteen. I had put my 560 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: mother's life so far ahead of my own and really 561 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: unthinking Lee, so I kind of woke up um and 562 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: and was so. I mean, I don't know who I 563 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: would have been had I had she not had this affair. 564 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what I would have done at school, 565 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: or who I would be with or so on. There's 566 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: no question in my mind that I wouldn't have been 567 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: married in this certain career, living with this certain person 568 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: in this town, you know, in San Diego. It just 569 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: it's um. But yeah, it was all of it. It 570 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: was the tornado, It was this perfect storm um and 571 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: then you know, I don't know what other biochemical reasons, 572 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: but it was devastating and it was I really had 573 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: to call on my way out of it for several years. 574 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: And I truly feel for people who experienced depression with 575 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: any kind of regularity because I was so scared of 576 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: it for so many years. I mean, I remember just thinking, 577 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: am I going to be someone who fights depression all 578 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: their life? And I and I haven't. It was Carl 579 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: Young who once described secrets as psychic poison, and another 580 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,959 Speaker 1: favorite quote of mine, this one from the Gospel of St. 581 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: Thomas in the Gnostic Gospels. If you bring forth what 582 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: is within you, what you bring forth will save you. 583 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: If you do not bring forth what is within you, 584 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: what you do not bring forth will destroy you. I 585 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: think there are moments in our lives that are ultimately 586 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: great turning points, great reckonings, if we allow them to be. 587 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: Adrian and Jack's marriage doesn't last. Really, how could it? 588 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: Burdened by so many secrets and silences, such wild and 589 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: impossible history. Adrian puts herself together again and becomes a strong, compassionate, 590 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: highly attuned, confident woman. She holds a series of high 591 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: profile jobs in publishing. She marries a wonderful man and 592 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: has two children, a daughter and a son. In the meantime, 593 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: Malabar and Ben had moved on to each other. It 594 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: was in that Lily died, and almost immediately they were 595 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 1: back together. Ben moved in within a couple of months, 596 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: and they were married nine months later. And then you know, 597 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: they went on to have an almost twenty year marriage. 598 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: U Ben died six years ago at the age of 599 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: so you know it. It was scandalous, but it was 600 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: also lasting. So you alluded to this a little bit before. 601 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: But so I'm wondering I guess I always wonder about 602 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: the lasting impact of secrets, just in terms of your 603 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: daughter being fourteen or will be fourteen at the time 604 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: your book comes out. And I know I've had that 605 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 1: experience any number of times in my son's life where 606 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: I'll see him at a certain age and I'll realize 607 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: that what was done to me at that age or 608 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: the way that I was treated at that age in 609 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: my own life was just so incomprehensible to me. So 610 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: here you are, and you know, you have this long, stable, 611 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: happy marriage, you have these two beautiful kids, you have 612 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: several wonderful careers, um and now you've you've made you 613 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: a piece of work out of this. Where does all 614 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: this kind of how does it sit with you? Not 615 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 1: that I ever thought I would be doing this kind 616 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: of thing to my children, but I think keeping it 617 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: in the front of my mind and my heart is 618 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: what makes me aware of of not wanting to go there, 619 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 1: of not wanting to repeat these mistakes that my parents made. 620 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: I do not want a parent as I was parented, 621 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: and that's that. I love both my parents, I really do, 622 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: but they just they made some incredible mistakes. And my 623 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: mother in particular and there's a history of it in 624 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: our family. Your mother, as you said, is pretty far 625 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: along in her decline, and you have very much been 626 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: there for her during these years. Do you feel it's 627 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: very clear that you love her? Do you feel that 628 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: you've forgiven her? I'm not angry with her. I'm I mean, 629 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,919 Speaker 1: she's such a different person right now that it's sort 630 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: of as if I'm not having the conversation with her 631 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: other than by myself. I truly believe that she was 632 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: a better mother than her mother was to her. I 633 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: don't honestly know the answer. I mean, I think I 634 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: have only because I don't feel anger or upset. I 635 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: feel curiosity and wanting to understand and not wanting to 636 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: replicate um and but at different points in time, I've 637 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: felt all of the above. I feel like most of 638 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: what I learned from my mother was sort of in 639 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: opposition to what she meant to teach me, or at 640 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: least she was not wise in terms of her lessons, 641 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: and most of how I want to be as in 642 00:39:48,560 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: reaction to who she was many things to Adrian Rodur. 643 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: Her memoir Wild Game, My Mother, Her Lover and Me 644 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: has just been released. You can find out more about 645 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: Adrian at Adrian Rodur dot com. Family Secrets is an 646 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: I Heeart media production. Dylan Fagin is the supervising producer, 647 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: Lowell Brolante is the audio engineer, and Julie Douglas is 648 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 1: the executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd 649 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: like to share, you can get in touch with us 650 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: at listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com, and 651 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: you can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, 652 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at fami 653 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod. For more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny 654 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: Shapiro dot com. For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, 655 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 656 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,