Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should Know from how Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
Speaker 1: There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry Roland and
Speaker 1: stuff you should not. My vocal cords are about to
Speaker 1: split wide open. Are they sure you don't sound weird? Oh?
Speaker 1: Really nice? I'm very Josh like. What is that is? He?
Speaker 1: I think that's how you pronounce it? Um? Wait, you
Speaker 1: got a little uh threat thing? No, you know, like
Speaker 1: when you just talk too much? Have you been talking
Speaker 1: too much? I guess, or you're stressed. I was under
Speaker 1: the impression that, aside from these two hours, you just
Speaker 1: sort of sit in silence and you and you meet
Speaker 1: pantomime right everything we do? Uh, interpretive dance. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: gotta say my my vocal courts. Babe. Well, I'm sorry
Speaker 1: to hear that you sound normal. Well, I'm glad I
Speaker 1: saund normal because I don't feel like I do. But
Speaker 1: if I sound normal, who cares about how I feel? Oh?
Speaker 1: Come on, everyone cares? No. Uh. This podcast, by the way,
Speaker 1: has perhaps the best band name ever right there in
Speaker 1: its title. I think it's overdone. Charismatic Megafauna. What do
Speaker 1: you mean, like there's so many bands name that, or
Speaker 1: you just think the name is too much the ladder
Speaker 1: of those two, he's pretty good now, charismatic Mega fauna.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe for your second band, your side gig. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: like the second before you know, your third, fourth or
Speaker 1: fifth one where you finally hit it. I'm still waiting
Speaker 1: on that. Are you know the first? But a hobby
Speaker 1: that offen the omega and nothing in between? How do
Speaker 1: you like my Latin? Is that Greek? Now this is
Speaker 1: off to a terrible start. No, this is great. So
Speaker 1: I saw a T shirt the other day. Um, I
Speaker 1: should give credit worre credits due you me saw a
Speaker 1: T shirt the other day and showed it to me.
Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome, you know. Um it was a World
Speaker 1: Wildlife Fund logo because you were just walking around kicking rocks.
Speaker 1: She's not looking up. Look up every up, she panomimes,
Speaker 1: look up now, pano back. Um it was the World
Speaker 1: Wildlife Fund logo with the panda, but there was another
Speaker 1: panda coming up behind it with a folding chair, which
Speaker 1: is a play on the w WF. I've seen that before. Great,
Speaker 1: great T shirt, um, But the fact that the panda
Speaker 1: is the front man for the World Wildlife Foundation, one
Speaker 1: of the biggest conservation organizations in the entire world. Is
Speaker 1: actually a pretty good um example of the use of
Speaker 1: a charismatic megafauna. Yeah um, which is also called a
Speaker 1: flagship species, and it's um a term that came around
Speaker 1: in the eighties. I tried to find track it back
Speaker 1: to the person who thought of it. Couldn't either. I
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. Let's go with Jack Hannah, all right, possible, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's possible. But basically it's very simple. This is a
Speaker 1: koala or a panda right now, but sort of yes, um,
Speaker 1: it's an animal that is like the poster child in
Speaker 1: advertising for zoos and conservation groups because they're so stinking
Speaker 1: cute and charismatic that people open their wallets to give
Speaker 1: money towards conservation efforts. You just make it rain on them. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: look at that panda. I can't My wallet is out
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, and I'm just pulling Benjamin's out
Speaker 1: and dropping them along this pandis trail. Yeah, that is
Speaker 1: charismatic megafauna. It is. It's it's as simple as that.
Speaker 1: And along the way, since it was kind of picked
Speaker 1: up and coined and started to take seriously by conservationists.
Speaker 1: It's become you know, much bigger and debated and everything.
Speaker 1: But it really helps to understand it and bring it
Speaker 1: down to size when you realize that it's actually it's
Speaker 1: a conservation idea, but it's actually a marketing term. That's
Speaker 1: That's what the whole thing is that it has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the importance of the species to its ecosystem,
Speaker 1: not necessarily. It doesn't even necessarily have to do with, um,
Speaker 1: how endangered the species is. UM. It really has to
Speaker 1: do with how cute and relatable humans find the species
Speaker 1: so that it will generate the most financial contributions possible
Speaker 1: towards conservation. Yeah, it's pretty int thing. And this UM
Speaker 1: we did an episode I think a pretty good one
Speaker 1: on zoos quite a while back, and the controversy around
Speaker 1: zoos and if we should even have zoos, and I
Speaker 1: think I think I remember us both sort of agreeing
Speaker 1: like some zoos are terrible, and then most zoos are.
Speaker 1: I don't know about most, but many zoos these days
Speaker 1: do such great work they are now necessary. And um
Speaker 1: two conservation efforts or go a long way towards conservation efforts,
Speaker 1: but we still like it's a little creepy sometimes when
Speaker 1: you see an elephant that should roam for thousands of
Speaker 1: miles in a you know, relatively small area, it makes
Speaker 1: you think they who knows? Yeah, But then like, man,
Speaker 1: it's just that thing with zoos again. Then you also
Speaker 1: see like a child get inspired to grow up to
Speaker 1: be a zoologists because they fell in love with the
Speaker 1: elephant at the zoo, and then they lead conservation efforts.
Speaker 1: So there's captive breeding programs that bring animals back from
Speaker 1: the verge of extinction. Um, right, all this is stuff
Speaker 1: to happen, but how often does it actually happen? Is?
Speaker 1: I think the conservation efforts are constantly happening at most
Speaker 1: zoos you need specifically bringing an animal back. Yeah, how
Speaker 1: many zoologists are actually inspired by going to a zoo
Speaker 1: as a child, like I mean, and is there a
Speaker 1: better way to do it? I'm sure we got into
Speaker 1: this in the in the Zoos episode. Since that, I
Speaker 1: don't think I've been to a zoo. I think I've
Speaker 1: been to a zoo once and I was like, I
Speaker 1: can't go to zoos anymore. Well, I went to the
Speaker 1: San Diego Zoo when we did our show there. Um,
Speaker 1: and now I'm a member of the Atlanta Zoo because
Speaker 1: I have a small child, And it's a great thing
Speaker 1: to do with a small kid because it introduces them
Speaker 1: the animals, which they love. It's really neat for them
Speaker 1: to be able to see these things in person, and
Speaker 1: it quite frankly wears her out, which is kind of
Speaker 1: the one thing you're trying to do. Disappearance your child exhausted.
Speaker 1: How crazy that chimpanzee is from being locked up its
Speaker 1: whole life, Like I bet you can't run from one
Speaker 1: animal exhibiting zookosis to the next as fast as you can. Um. So, anyway,
Speaker 1: I've been to the Atlanta Zoo here a few times
Speaker 1: recently because of that, and still have mixed feelings, you know,
Speaker 1: but it's hard to not see like your twenty old
Speaker 1: delight at seeing. I mean, one of these visits, we
Speaker 1: caught a full on ape show. Really yeah, Like you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you go to the zoo and everyone's hiding. You're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's neat. There's a tiger behind that rock somewhere.
Speaker 1: But um, we had a good day where these this
Speaker 1: family of apes was just playing like crazy and like
Speaker 1: this huge was it a gorilla? I can never remember
Speaker 1: which monkeys which are apes. I think a gorilla is
Speaker 1: a great ape. Well, this big daddy gorilla, I mean,
Speaker 1: just to see the strength of this dude moving around
Speaker 1: and jumping around was amazing. And he would jump off
Speaker 1: of a rock and clap his hands, and the little
Speaker 1: kids were playing little baby gorillas and everyone was just
Speaker 1: like literally in awe of what they were witnessing. It
Speaker 1: was like they pumped them full of steroids cocaine they did.
Speaker 1: Right then, that guerrilla family was showing off their charisma. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they have natural inherent charisma as far as um being
Speaker 1: a charismatic species goes, because they're so relatable by humans.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean that's one of the things like, hey,
Speaker 1: this one kind of looks like you. Don't you like
Speaker 1: it more than other animals? Don't you want to give
Speaker 1: us some money to protect them in the wild. And
Speaker 1: that's the point of the charismatic mega fauna usage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that we're talking guerrillas, pandas, kualas, tigers, dolphins, killer whales.
Speaker 1: Thanks free Willy. Uh. They include lions in here, and
Speaker 1: I guess so because they're magnificent. But lions don't do
Speaker 1: a lot. Most of the big cats just sort of
Speaker 1: lay around. Sure, they're not running around like the gorillas.
Speaker 1: You gotta throw your beer can at them to get
Speaker 1: them going. They had an elephant paint a picture. They
Speaker 1: did this little like it's a zoo, huh. They Yeah,
Speaker 1: they put a paintbrush in its mouth and would hold
Speaker 1: up a canvas and the elephant would like someone else,
Speaker 1: it's smacko with the riding crop until it But you
Speaker 1: want to know it wasn't like that. But that's actually
Speaker 1: you can buy um paintings by elephants, but apparently they're
Speaker 1: not very well treated. Yeah, I don't think that's. I
Speaker 1: think at the Atlanta Zoo they treat their animals very nicely. Sure, sure,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that, but I mean on the internet
Speaker 1: you can buy paintings by elephants, and yeah, if you
Speaker 1: actually look into how the elephants are treated, probably wouldn't
Speaker 1: want the painting. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be
Speaker 1: super activist person, but I don't. I don't mind. It's
Speaker 1: a you know, it's a controversy. And you know what,
Speaker 1: there was a tiger there that was clearly exhibiting zukosis.
Speaker 1: He was pacing back and forth, and all I could
Speaker 1: do was think about how much that sucks for that
Speaker 1: tiger to be there. Well, it goes to that solitary
Speaker 1: confinement thing the episode that we did, it's virtually the
Speaker 1: same thing. I think you even brought up suitcases in
Speaker 1: that episode too. You know, man, that's quite a long winded,
Speaker 1: uh sort of intro. Huh, I guess so should we
Speaker 1: take a break already? And yeah, I'm a little worked out.
Speaker 1: Get it back on the tracks. Yeah, all right, I
Speaker 1: shot Josh with a sedative from an elephant gun. Now
Speaker 1: you're drifting off, I'm a little I'm feeling pretty good.
Speaker 1: We got a pretty good bush. All right. So we're
Speaker 1: talking about well a lot of things, but let's get
Speaker 1: back to characteristic, charismatic. What's wrong with me today? So
Speaker 1: I read this this article UM on charismatic mega fauna
Speaker 1: and then it was a survey of other journal like
Speaker 1: scholarly articles UM, and I think they read like seventy
Speaker 1: of them because they're basically trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: a charismatic mega fauna definition was. UM. Apparently it was
Speaker 1: just all over the place. It was. It's it's extremely
Speaker 1: non scientific, and I think it is part of the
Speaker 1: problem because it's a marketing tool. Man. These people were
Speaker 1: trying to like whip it into shape. The best definition
Speaker 1: they found, um or, the best explanation of what makes
Speaker 1: an animal charismatic was from a paper called Non Human
Speaker 1: Charisma by A. Jay Lorimer written in two thousand seven.
Speaker 1: Um there were I think four points. One was detectability
Speaker 1: and distinctiveness. Anybody can look at a pan and be like,
Speaker 1: that's panda. Oh yeah, I love panda's. Look at there's
Speaker 1: one right there, there's a panda. Well, and I think
Speaker 1: um In the they interviewed a couple of zool just
Speaker 1: some one of them and said, you might even know
Speaker 1: a few facts about this. It's just a regular non
Speaker 1: zoo enthusiast, Like panda's eat bamboo. Well, I was gonna
Speaker 1: say that, but then I thought that was a koala,
Speaker 1: and I was gonna koalaz eucalyptus. Yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah,
Speaker 1: pantasy bamboo by the bushel. But you can point out
Speaker 1: a pan and you're not like, I can't tell if
Speaker 1: that's a camel rat or a humpback rat. You know,
Speaker 1: like where it's it's just the same as everything else.
Speaker 1: It has to be its own thing. That is really
Speaker 1: that stands out. Another one is socioeconomic biases, So basically
Speaker 1: how a society feels about the animal, right, So like
Speaker 1: do I want to kill the rat or hug the panda? Exactly?
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Um. Aesthetics is another one, like is
Speaker 1: it cute? Is it cuddly? Is it beautiful? Is it majestic?
Speaker 1: Does it look like um, you know, uh uh, I
Speaker 1: don't know a fat dude, right, you know, does it
Speaker 1: like kind of look like it should be wearing a
Speaker 1: hard hat and carrying like a lunch pail that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. Is it relatable? Yeah, that panda, it looks
Speaker 1: like Kevin James was wearing a black lone range of mask.
Speaker 1: He doesn't love Kevin James wearing a black clone arrangement man.
Speaker 1: And then the last one is the potential to generate satisfaction. Right.
Speaker 1: So let's say that you see a panda and you're like,
Speaker 1: I want to know what that is. I want to
Speaker 1: know all about pandas, and you find out pandas are
Speaker 1: really boring. There's not a lot to them. There's not
Speaker 1: a lot to be said. Um, they do they don't
Speaker 1: do anything it's not going to generate much satisfaction intellectually.
Speaker 1: So if if you have an animal that checks all
Speaker 1: these boxes, it's relatable, your society feels good about it.
Speaker 1: It's cute, it's cuddly, it stands out on its own,
Speaker 1: and and um, it has a lot, a lot to
Speaker 1: offer intellectually, You've got a charismatic animal. Yeah, wow, I
Speaker 1: like that. Well tell Ja Lormer, do you like it?
Speaker 1: Jay Loremer? If you're out there, it's wonderful work. Uh.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna cover sort of the good points and
Speaker 1: bad points about this characterization. But um, when it works
Speaker 1: is when the character uh keep saying characteristic, what is
Speaker 1: wrong with me? Charismatic Megaphona functions as what's known as
Speaker 1: an umbrella species, which is to say, um, because people
Speaker 1: are giving money to some sort of conservation effort towards
Speaker 1: this animal. Um, it's helping two protect and serve other
Speaker 1: animals within that ecosystem the cop Yeah. Yeah, And by
Speaker 1: the way that that makes sense, it does it does?
Speaker 1: You have to kind of step back and think about
Speaker 1: it though, you know, like, how does protecting, say like
Speaker 1: a wolf help the rest of the ecosystem. Well, a
Speaker 1: wolf feeds on smaller animals, let's say small chill under
Speaker 1: the right circumstances. Unfortunately, Um, they typically they'll feed on
Speaker 1: smaller animals, which say feed on insects, which say, feed
Speaker 1: on plants. Um. So that means that if a wolf
Speaker 1: is happy and healthy and it's normal ecosystem, that means
Speaker 1: that all these other species that make up the food
Speaker 1: web that the wolf is a part of must be
Speaker 1: happy and healthy too. So and that's it's an it's
Speaker 1: an umbrella species, like you said, where if you take
Speaker 1: care of the wolf, you're inadvertently taking care of the
Speaker 1: rest of them. So that's fine. Yeah. And in one
Speaker 1: of the interviews in here, um, who is this person Braccini?
Speaker 1: Was that from the Atlanta Zoo. Yeah. Dr Stephanie Braccini,
Speaker 1: she says, and this is to me kind of says
Speaker 1: it all. It would be nice if endangered species status
Speaker 1: was correlated to a charismatic variable, but that's not necessarily
Speaker 1: or often the case. And she brings up the point
Speaker 1: of muscles spanglers. Freshwater muscle is critically endangered but has
Speaker 1: no charisma, so you know, there's no correlation there. In
Speaker 1: case the panda, there is because they were endangered, and
Speaker 1: I think now they're just threatened, right, But there's not
Speaker 1: always that correlation. She's like, it would be kind of
Speaker 1: great if this was you know, this is always the case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the point underlying the use of charismatic mega
Speaker 1: fauna is just knowing that something is on the verge
Speaker 1: of going extinct has been proven not to be enough
Speaker 1: to get humans to act to do anything about it
Speaker 1: has to be cute too, And so what conservationists are saying,
Speaker 1: after God, you're so stupid, they say, Okay, we can
Speaker 1: work with this. See this cute little animal, save this animal,
Speaker 1: give us your money, and then they take it and
Speaker 1: and actually use it for the whole ecosystem rather than
Speaker 1: just the animal. Yeah, and that's such a human thing.
Speaker 1: Like the same can and has been said about like
Speaker 1: kidnapped children or uh or the sex trade, Like it
Speaker 1: takes some you know, cute little blonde girl to make
Speaker 1: the news, you know, right, And that's kind of always
Speaker 1: been the case. Well, and it's not it's not just
Speaker 1: social either. It's not just society, although society definitely values attractiveness.
Speaker 1: There have been plenty of studies about people with facial differences, right,
Speaker 1: which is Um, like the people used to call them
Speaker 1: disfigured people. Now it's called facial differences. I think that's
Speaker 1: a great improvement, right, But um, they have been studies
Speaker 1: with babies and they prefer people who, um, don't have
Speaker 1: facial differences, who follow more like a typical facial profile
Speaker 1: or feature, right, compared to people who have facial differences.
Speaker 1: And that suggests that it's hardwired. So babies pause up
Speaker 1: on this. Yeah yeah, yeah, Um. And the idea that
Speaker 1: you're basically born to prefer, say, facial symmetry or something
Speaker 1: like that, it really kind of falls in line with
Speaker 1: this too. It's almost like you you can't help but say, yes,
Speaker 1: I care about this cute little baby pand or whatever
Speaker 1: because it's cute, whereas this other thing that is way
Speaker 1: more endangered and deserves our attention way more because it's
Speaker 1: actually a keystone species, which we'll talk about. Um, it's
Speaker 1: not cute, so I can't really care about it. I'm
Speaker 1: not hardwired to do that. Yeah, it's kind of like
Speaker 1: that thing we've talked about before and I think recently,
Speaker 1: where you prefer things that look like you because evolutionarily
Speaker 1: anything else Back in Took Took's days might have been
Speaker 1: a threat exactly. Yeah, right, So it's easy to be
Speaker 1: hard on people, but when you kind of look at
Speaker 1: the evolutionary aspect of it, like, you know, well they
Speaker 1: did to understand as well. Yeah, that whole in group
Speaker 1: outgroup thing. If we can get past that, it seems
Speaker 1: like we are we've evolved socially faster than we've evolved biologically,
Speaker 1: and that it just hasn't kept up. If we could
Speaker 1: just get past that whole in group out group thing,
Speaker 1: who knows what kind of world we'd be living in.
Speaker 1: High school would be so great. Yeah, everybody would be like,
Speaker 1: I love high school. So um. You talked about keystone species. Uh,
Speaker 1: that is a species that actually performs like a really
Speaker 1: vital role in their ecosystem. Yeah, where like if you
Speaker 1: took them out, the ecosystem would be so altered, so
Speaker 1: drastically altered, it probably wouldn't resemble itself any longer. It
Speaker 1: may just go away altogether, like a honeybee or like coral. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know where like if it's gone, you're in trouble.
Speaker 1: The thing is is a lot of charismatic megafauna aren't
Speaker 1: keystone species. It actually doesn't really matter as far as
Speaker 1: the ecosystem is concerned. If the pandas there, so there's
Speaker 1: some other species in that ecosystem that will do the
Speaker 1: same play the same role that the panda oil. There's
Speaker 1: pandas right now listening that said. Did you just hear
Speaker 1: that guy? Let's go kid him. Have you ever seen
Speaker 1: a panda attack and kill a podcaster? Yes? Once, It's
Speaker 1: very distressing. Pandas are supposed to be super vicious, are they? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought that was a koala. Koala's as well. They're
Speaker 1: all vicious, aren't they. Did you see the giraffe give birth? No?
Speaker 1: I heard a lot of people talking about sitting around
Speaker 1: and watching it forever and ever, but I didn't check
Speaker 1: it out. It was hilariously sponsored. The webcam was sponsored
Speaker 1: by Toys r US. You know Jeffrey giraffe, his family.
Speaker 1: Well there you go. Interesting. Um, there's no accident, right,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Uh. They're also something called or
Speaker 1: there is also something called an indicator species. And this
Speaker 1: is like if you want to know how an ecosystem
Speaker 1: is going. Uh, like, let's say, how's the the bayou doing.
Speaker 1: Let's go look at the crayfish, because that would be
Speaker 1: a good indicator of how everything else is doing. If
Speaker 1: the crayfish numbers are down, that means something's going on, right,
Speaker 1: or if there's if the canaries are dying off in
Speaker 1: the coal mine, you've got gas right. Well. But in
Speaker 1: the same way though, it's just uh, an umbrella species
Speaker 1: can also be an indicator species, and that like if
Speaker 1: the wolf can't survive, that means that all the other
Speaker 1: parts of the food web are messed up too, and
Speaker 1: they can also be an indicator species. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: think that's that's how indicator species is used every time,
Speaker 1: but it's a it's a an argument in favor of
Speaker 1: using charismatic megafauna for conservation. Um. So we've been talking
Speaker 1: a lot about you know, people want to give the
Speaker 1: things that look like them and that are cute. Uh,
Speaker 1: that this has been proven out with studies. We're not
Speaker 1: just bloviating. Um well, I guess we are. But in
Speaker 1: addition to bloviating, we're not making stuff up because the
Speaker 1: University of Arizona go wildcats right, Yes, they did a
Speaker 1: study and did find that people support preservation efforts. Oh wait,
Speaker 1: now that's the sun devils. No, that's airs on state. Okay, Yeah, wildcats. Uh,
Speaker 1: people did support efforts for animals that are attractive and
Speaker 1: that do look more human. Um. And they even found
Speaker 1: that women support uh scary animals even less than men. Right,
Speaker 1: Like you know, preservation for a snake population or uh
Speaker 1: maybe an insect or something. Yeah, so this is like
Speaker 1: a barn as In approach to conservation. Yeah, promoting conservation. Um.
Speaker 1: Also if you're if you are using charismatic megafauna for conservation,
Speaker 1: um like it. It actually can have beneficial results, right,
Speaker 1: It's not just like theoretically this should help. Like elephants,
Speaker 1: everybody loves elephants. There's not a personal life who doesn't
Speaker 1: like elephants in the West, I should say, right, um,
Speaker 1: the and who knows why. They're very cute, they're very sweet,
Speaker 1: they grieve over their dead, they do all sorts of
Speaker 1: interesting stuff, right, Um. And they've used elephants to uh
Speaker 1: basically as poster species for poaching campaigns. A lot more
Speaker 1: than just elephants are poached. Everything from whale sharks to
Speaker 1: rhinos to uh, well, elephants are poached. But the idea
Speaker 1: of giving money to andy poaching campaigns because you you
Speaker 1: feel like I want to help that elephant here's a check.
Speaker 1: It's actually going and helping all these other species as well.
Speaker 1: There's supposedly there's like thirty five thousand species that are
Speaker 1: subject to poaching. Yeah, and the other example they've given
Speaker 1: this article is the American bald eagle, which in the
Speaker 1: sixties and seventies there was a big movement They're like,
Speaker 1: this is America's bird. Yeah, dang it. You know Ben
Speaker 1: Franklin wanted the turkey. I think I didn't know that
Speaker 1: very interesting, not that you're ducking no, that would have
Speaker 1: been even better. But yeah, in the sixties and seventies,
Speaker 1: people were like, this is America's bird, we have to
Speaker 1: save the American bald eagle. Um, and it worked there.
Speaker 1: I think it's not even endangered any longer, right, I
Speaker 1: don't think so. My in laws just saw one in Florida. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty neat. Yeah, kind of just think associate them with
Speaker 1: like Alaska and yeah, Pacific Northwest. But there was along
Speaker 1: the Gulf. Yeah, there's like a whole group in the Gulf,
Speaker 1: and there's a whole group up in the Great White Way.
Speaker 1: Well above that, that's the Great White Way. I think
Speaker 1: it's Broadway, isn't it. I don't know, I've never heard
Speaker 1: the Broadway or Canada. I think it's Broadway. But I
Speaker 1: thought it was Canada because I heard Scott Thompson from
Speaker 1: the Kids in the Hall called Broadway that. So I
Speaker 1: was like, I guess he's talking about Canada, and then
Speaker 1: I found out he's like, it was Broadway. I think
Speaker 1: it's Broadway. That was way more complex than I thought.
Speaker 1: Um and the panda, you know, we mentioned um there
Speaker 1: come back. They have a wild population increase over the
Speaker 1: past ten or so years, largely because you know, people
Speaker 1: love pandas. They'll open up the wallet. And again, I
Speaker 1: mean not necessarily specifically with pandas, but with some species.
Speaker 1: If you can say their their populations coming back in
Speaker 1: the wild, then it also indicates that the their ecosystem
Speaker 1: is getting better healthy again as well. So that's all
Speaker 1: well and good. It's good that it it's made some money,
Speaker 1: right sure, but there's also plenty of criticisms to using
Speaker 1: charismatic mega fauna. Uh and let's take a break and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it right after this. So Chuck, yes,
Speaker 1: what's what's the problem with using a cute panda or
Speaker 1: an elephant or something like that to get money for conservation.
Speaker 1: How could there be anything wrong with it? Well, that's there.
Speaker 1: Another word for this is the Bambi effect, like when
Speaker 1: you care only about the cute thing. Um. And they
Speaker 1: interviewed for our own article, it's interesting that the Atlanta
Speaker 1: Zoo u zoologists was like, this is kind of great
Speaker 1: and it's working. And then they interviewed Christina Simmons of
Speaker 1: the San Diego Zoo Global UH, and she was a
Speaker 1: little more like, you know what, this is an eighties
Speaker 1: thing and we have moved past that here in San Diego.
Speaker 1: Ignore that panda on the brochure. We've moved past it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I thought that was funny. The article pointed out that
Speaker 1: they had plenty of charismatic species on their website even
Speaker 1: though they supposedly moved past it, So apparently in their
Speaker 1: projects they stopped focusing on charismatic Mega font is what
Speaker 1: she was saying, right, Yeah, she said that they m
Speaker 1: what they're trying to do is focus on an environment
Speaker 1: more than like. It's not like they don't focus on animals,
Speaker 1: but they try to look at at it from an uh.
Speaker 1: I guess from an ecosystem point of view? Is that right?
Speaker 1: I think so? Or they're looking more at animals that
Speaker 1: um have a bigger impact on their ecosystem, right than
Speaker 1: than charismatic megafaunta Mike right, Yeah, and and um, I
Speaker 1: don't think it was or maybe it was her. They
Speaker 1: kind of put it in an interesting way that I
Speaker 1: hadn't thought of. It sort of creates a class struggle,
Speaker 1: a bit um between quote wealthy animal end quote and
Speaker 1: a poor animal as far as their richness being determined
Speaker 1: by their likability. Yeah, and I mean it's as simple
Speaker 1: as that. And it's not just public awareness of you know,
Speaker 1: these species being endangered, whereas there's plenty of other species
Speaker 1: that aren't charismatic that are way more in trouble and
Speaker 1: in danger of being extinct. Um, it's scientific money too,
Speaker 1: Like scientists need funding to do their studies. And if
Speaker 1: there's plenty of funding around to focus on pandas but
Speaker 1: not say, those muscles that went extinct, well there's gonna
Speaker 1: be a lot more scientific study directed towards pandas and
Speaker 1: saving pandas than saving those muscles, even though those muscles
Speaker 1: probably keep their aquatic ecosystem clean, whereas pandas just poop
Speaker 1: everywhere and they don't do anything to clean up their ecosystem.
Speaker 1: I wonder what the scientific ethics are. Maybe a researcher
Speaker 1: can tell us about where funding goes, like if you know,
Speaker 1: if they're like, well, let's divert some of that to
Speaker 1: um this other species, whereas the individual who donate might
Speaker 1: be like, no, just pandas. Well. That was actually brought
Speaker 1: up in the in this larger article that survey of
Speaker 1: like the seventy other articles about charismatic megafauna, and they
Speaker 1: said that that could be an issue. Some donors want
Speaker 1: to know that their money is going towards what they
Speaker 1: donated it. And if you think you donated it to
Speaker 1: save pandas, and these guys are being like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're helping pandas, but we're also helping these snakes. But
Speaker 1: you hate snakes. You might be unhappy that your money's
Speaker 1: helping snakes, you though the snakes really need the help. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One thing I have noticed with donation sites is a
Speaker 1: lot of times they'll have that and then let's say,
Speaker 1: would you also like to donate five dollars to the
Speaker 1: general fund um stuff, you know, so you can help
Speaker 1: the snake. Yeah, And there's not one that says the
Speaker 1: general fund and no, but no, snakes right now, there's
Speaker 1: not an option you're doing. You're donating the snakes with
Speaker 1: the general fund. You know, there's also the issue of
Speaker 1: it being a totally unscientific idea. It's completely subjective. Like
Speaker 1: even here in the West, people are like, well, lions
Speaker 1: are beautiful and majestic, but if you talk to um
Speaker 1: school kids in Tanzania, they'll say, actually, lions are quite
Speaker 1: fearsome because we live near them, and um, I have
Speaker 1: a friend whose uncle was killed by a lion. Right,
Speaker 1: so you can't even agree on what what um what
Speaker 1: animals have charisma? Even even you know, it seems like
Speaker 1: a foregone conclusion to us, the people who are carrying
Speaker 1: out these conservation efforts and who are donating the conservation
Speaker 1: dollars aren't the ones who have to actually live with
Speaker 1: these animals as well. Right, So, if you're an organization
Speaker 1: who's getting conservation dollars from these people to save these
Speaker 1: animals that the locals actually hate, you're gonna have a
Speaker 1: problem here. So what are some of the solutions to
Speaker 1: these to to what what can you do as a
Speaker 1: conservationist if you're facing this this issue where you need
Speaker 1: money but you also need to be realistic at the
Speaker 1: feeling you have an answer and wait. Well, one of
Speaker 1: the one of the great suggestions that I've run across
Speaker 1: is um you can talk about these species that people like,
Speaker 1: but just talk about them in in realistic terms and
Speaker 1: don't say how cute they are and all that stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or don't make it sound like they're the most important
Speaker 1: animal on the planet, right, like put it in its
Speaker 1: relative context, right. Or this one is even better. Take
Speaker 1: an actual keystone species from an ecosystem that's in real
Speaker 1: danger of becoming instinct, and then put your marketing people
Speaker 1: to work on creating charisma for that animal, because you
Speaker 1: know what, they could do that in most cases, unless
Speaker 1: it's a komodo dragon. No, it's actually a really great
Speaker 1: example of of them doing that. Well. I was about
Speaker 1: the reason I mentioned that because I was that was
Speaker 1: one of my favorite animals at the Atlanta Zoo. Was.
Speaker 1: I could sit around and watch that komodo dragon for days. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was so cool looking, but a lot of people
Speaker 1: might not think so. So Like Charon Stone, apparently there
Speaker 1: was a huge what Jaron Stone's ex husband was bitten
Speaker 1: by a komodo dragon very famously? Was he hurt? Ye
Speaker 1: did he die, No, that's not why he's an ex.
Speaker 1: Did he lose a toe? Well, I should say he's
Speaker 1: an ex because he got bitten by the komodo dragon,
Speaker 1: but just because she was embarrassed by it, so she
Speaker 1: divorced him. No, okay, she's like, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: can't even go out in public now see you later.
Speaker 1: You've mortified me. Yeah. I figured you would have known
Speaker 1: about that. It was a very not funny for him,
Speaker 1: funny for everybody everyone else. No, but apparently there was
Speaker 1: a big local push to save komodo dragons. They were
Speaker 1: not well liked, but they put some top marketing people
Speaker 1: on it and gave the komodo dragon chrisma, like just
Speaker 1: pointing to a panda bear and being like pretty cute. Huh.
Speaker 1: That doesn't take any marketing skill. It takes real marketing
Speaker 1: skill to take a hated and reviled animal that needs
Speaker 1: human help and make it charming. You know who could
Speaker 1: solve all of this, God Disney. Oh yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: All you gotta do is make a movie about a
Speaker 1: Komodo dragon is the hero. Sure, and and literally that
Speaker 1: would change everything. Somebody needs to throw out Walt Disney. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's still frozen. I don't know if that's true or
Speaker 1: an urban legend or not. We should get Holly from
Speaker 1: my stuff you miss in history class in here. Well,
Speaker 1: we did an episode on criegenics, and I'm sure we
Speaker 1: covered it, but that was a long time ago. Holly,
Speaker 1: for all I know, might have Walt Disney frozen in
Speaker 1: her house. She might you know, being held captive. Uh
Speaker 1: So should we talk a little bit about bio diversity.
Speaker 1: I think we should and why that's important because that's
Speaker 1: kind of what we're talking about here in a roundabout ways.
Speaker 1: A healthy ecosystem depends on biodiversity. And that doesn't just
Speaker 1: mean what's known as species diversity or species richness, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of different animals. That's what most
Speaker 1: people think of when they think of biodiversity. It's a
Speaker 1: lot more complex than that. Yeah, So there's, um, there's
Speaker 1: species diversity, like you said, there's also a genetic diversity,
Speaker 1: which is the combined number of genes that's available to
Speaker 1: uh species worldwide. And the more genetic diversity of species
Speaker 1: have them, the easier it can withstand um things like disease.
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, some individuals are gonna die, but overall the
Speaker 1: species should be able to survive it because there's probably
Speaker 1: a gene in there somewhere that can combat this disease
Speaker 1: or is immune to this disease, and they'll develop an
Speaker 1: immunity to it. The species will go on. So species
Speaker 1: diversity is a very important type of biodiversity too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like bald eagle again, genetic diversity. Sorry, yeah, yeah, bald
Speaker 1: eagle good example because they are spread out all over, Uh,
Speaker 1: well not all over, but in those certain places in
Speaker 1: North America give them good genetic diversity. Uh, Thus they
Speaker 1: were able to come back. The cheetah um not so much.
Speaker 1: Back in the day, there was only one species, I
Speaker 1: think around ten thousand years ago. Yeah, I didn't see
Speaker 1: what happened to the species or the cheated Did you
Speaker 1: what all the other species? Yeah, I don't know. That's
Speaker 1: pretty bizarre. Just one survived, Yeah, the uh sen Nick's jubats.
Speaker 1: I think that's right. In Africa and um, that was
Speaker 1: a problem because when you just have one species, you're
Speaker 1: in breeding a lot and your genetic diversity goes way
Speaker 1: down and all of a sudden, you uh, one thing
Speaker 1: could come along and wipe you out. Exactly when one
Speaker 1: disease or something um And then there's also ecosystem diversity,
Speaker 1: which is the number of different types of ecosystems around
Speaker 1: the world, and the more you have those, the better
Speaker 1: off you are. It's kind of like bio diversity is
Speaker 1: a really good example of not having all of your
Speaker 1: eggs in one basket. Yeah, you want to diversify. It's
Speaker 1: the same thing with stocks and bonds, that's right, you know. Uh,
Speaker 1: And as humans, bio diversity is a big deal because
Speaker 1: of medicine that we use that comes from plants. Let's say, uh,
Speaker 1: what else, clothes that we wear from plants, and animal fibers,
Speaker 1: what we eat. That's another big one too. Can't forget that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And the point is it's all linked, like you talked
Speaker 1: about earlier. The wolf population will have a or the
Speaker 1: honeybee population will have an effect on down the line
Speaker 1: because it's all one big linked puzzle, and something like
Speaker 1: colony collapse disorder can foul it up to the point
Speaker 1: where just because the honeybee are the crop production as
Speaker 1: a whole in the United States is in trouble right right,
Speaker 1: So there's and it seems kind of remedial that to
Speaker 1: go over it, but it's important to point out, like,
Speaker 1: what's at stake here when you're talking about extinction? Right,
Speaker 1: It's not like, oh, we don't have honey anymore, right now,
Speaker 1: there's the entire ecosystems can fail, And when entire ecosystems fail,
Speaker 1: the world gets a little less bio diverse. And when
Speaker 1: that happens, it's a little more fragile, and it just
Speaker 1: keeps getting set up more and more and more for
Speaker 1: some sort of larger collapse that's more than just say
Speaker 1: a honeybee collapse. UM and apparently the big one, the
Speaker 1: big daddy as far as UM as reduction of biodiversity goes, Well,
Speaker 1: there's two of them. One is invasive species. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: didn't know we should do a show on We're gonna
Speaker 1: do one on cuts at one point. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's two separate shows or not. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I did and realized that invasive species caused that
Speaker 1: much damage. Yeah, there's something like um half of all
Speaker 1: of the extinction special extinctions since the sixteen hundreds they
Speaker 1: attribute to invasive species, where it's just you know, you've
Speaker 1: got a species that's introduced into a new um ecosystem,
Speaker 1: doesn't have any predators, so it it preys on other
Speaker 1: things and reproduces unchecked and just totally throws off the ecosystem. Right.
Speaker 1: Half of extinction comes from invasive species, and then another third,
Speaker 1: six percent apparently comes from deforestation, right yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the other two big ones are over hunting, um, like
Speaker 1: we were talking about with like the rhino and elephants
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and back in our pigeons episode
Speaker 1: literally calls the extinction of the passenger pigeon. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then climate changes the fourth which um, sort of just
Speaker 1: getting started on that one. So I would that's an
Speaker 1: increasingly becoming a problem with animals force from their habitats.
Speaker 1: But deforestation is the big daddy. Yeah, and apparently one
Speaker 1: of the big issues with deforestation, although there has been
Speaker 1: a lot of headway made with slowing deforestation. Um. But
Speaker 1: the rainforest is particularly vulnerable because it covers about seven
Speaker 1: percent of Earth's land mass, but it houses about half
Speaker 1: of Earth's species. That's crazy, right, So there's that problem
Speaker 1: with a lot of eggs in one basket. If you
Speaker 1: mess with that basket, you're you're in big trouble. I
Speaker 1: think that's how the saying goes, right. So um, one
Speaker 1: of the problems with deforestation is that if you are
Speaker 1: developing economy and you've got a lot of economic activity
Speaker 1: that can be gained by cutting down the rainforest, it's
Speaker 1: kind of tough de fault that that economy to say,
Speaker 1: what are you doing? You know, we as humanity need that.
Speaker 1: That's nature's pharmacy, right. Um. There's also apparently a lot
Speaker 1: of issue with indigenous peoples in rainforests as well, that
Speaker 1: a lot of them are like, well they're indigenous people,
Speaker 1: they know what they're doing. Well, they're also like deforesting
Speaker 1: the rainforest themselves as well. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: programs that have been put into place to reduce deforestation,
Speaker 1: and like I said, they're having an effect. Apparently, within
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, deforestation has fallen like year
Speaker 1: over year in Brazil, which is where a lot of
Speaker 1: it was happening. So the idea of deforestation not happening
Speaker 1: in UM Brazil are happening less. That's a big deal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And they have found a direct correlation between um the
Speaker 1: local economy being less reliant on the rainforest and having
Speaker 1: like a healthy economy doesn't that doesn't depend on the
Speaker 1: rainforest and deforestation decreasing, so it's you know, it's not
Speaker 1: rocket science, and thanks to Don Henley it's all getting
Speaker 1: better and Al Gore and Tom Petty. All Don Henley
Speaker 1: does is helped the rainforest and be a jerk and
Speaker 1: sue people. Who does he sue dude? Done. Henley sues everybody,
Speaker 1: sue everybody, shoes, sue. He sues Sharon Stone's husband. I
Speaker 1: think so now he's sort of a notorious jerk as
Speaker 1: far as like, oh you you know you used this
Speaker 1: Eagle song when you weren't supposed to and taking you
Speaker 1: to court and then I'll cut you. Man. He like
Speaker 1: one of my favorite bands, and then I'll cut you.
Speaker 1: That's not a peaceful, easy feeling at all. Um Okerville
Speaker 1: River one of my favorite bands. They kind of reworked
Speaker 1: a Don Henley song as a homage and a tribute
Speaker 1: and it didn't even like I think they just put
Speaker 1: it on the web. They weren't like trying to make
Speaker 1: money off of it, and they're like, man, we love
Speaker 1: this song. We kind of reworked it and like here
Speaker 1: it is. And he was like, shut it down, get
Speaker 1: it off the internet. I'm suing you, little indie band. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then will Chef there, uh, their lead singer and songwriter.
Speaker 1: He was just sort of like, man, really thanks a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have my Eagles tattooed. Grade it off, no more,
Speaker 1: no more homages to you, sir. It was the end
Speaker 1: of will Chef's innocence about Don Henley. Uh, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: see Joe Walsh to More Night and Tom Petty he's
Speaker 1: opening up, wow, which I'm pretty excited about. Usually openers
Speaker 1: at those big shows or I don't know, they don't
Speaker 1: do a good job pairing them sometimes. Yeah. Like I
Speaker 1: saw Elton John once and he had these two cello
Speaker 1: players yo yo maa yeah, and his and his brother. No.
Speaker 1: It was I mean it was kind of neat. That's
Speaker 1: the only cello player and they were I can't remember
Speaker 1: their names, and I'm sure there are tons of people
Speaker 1: that are fans of these guys because they play like
Speaker 1: like A C. D C songs on the cello and
Speaker 1: it's really sort of yah. I mean it was cool,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, like I just wanted to. I
Speaker 1: want to see Joe Walsh open up for everybody, so
Speaker 1: um you me and I went and saw Cindy lawper
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and Dr John opened for Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not a good pairing. It well, so it was
Speaker 1: an amazing show, both of them were, but um, it
Speaker 1: was like the Doctor John show happened, and then everyone left,
Speaker 1: everyone came in for Cindy Lauper. It was a very
Speaker 1: weird pairing. I think Cindy Lauper's is like a Doctor
Speaker 1: John fan and wanted to make sure he got some
Speaker 1: money that year or something right. But it was like
Speaker 1: two different shows, like an early show in a late
Speaker 1: show as far as the audience was concerned. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: saw Josh Grobin open up for Iron Maid, and I
Speaker 1: thought that was strange too. Well, Bruce Dickinson is a
Speaker 1: well known operatic singer. Oh that's true, so I can Yeah,
Speaker 1: tattooed millionaire pilot man. Not what a great ending? Or
Speaker 1: are we done? Did you have anything else? Nope? All right.
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about Iron Maiden bio diversity,
Speaker 1: Josh Groban, yo yo, ma, all that jazz, type those
Speaker 1: words in the search bar at how stuff works dot
Speaker 1: com and press your luck. Since I said press your luck,
Speaker 1: it's time for listener mail All that Jazz, and then
Speaker 1: of which was jazz. Alright, Um, I wonder where that
Speaker 1: term came from. Just I think it's from the Great
Speaker 1: White Way, right. I mean there was a show called
Speaker 1: All That Jazz, But I invent that, I think, So okay,
Speaker 1: that's all it. This is from I'm gonna call this
Speaker 1: from our old buddy, Sarah Law. Who's our oldest. Um.
Speaker 1: I always say oldest like she's night long the longest lasting,
Speaker 1: longest running band. Yeah, long standing listeners from Canada. Hey, guys, Josh,
Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry. Can you still not spell Jerry? Right,
Speaker 1: Sarah after all these years, I just spell it Gary
Speaker 1: with a G Gary j E r I everybody, Um,
Speaker 1: I know you guys love animals, so I thought it'd
Speaker 1: be great if you could share this, uh stuff you shnow.
Speaker 1: Army story friend needed to give up his cat for
Speaker 1: adoption because he's moving out of the United States due
Speaker 1: to health issues of the cat. Shelters would not take her.
Speaker 1: He was going to have to put her down, which
Speaker 1: I can't believe that's the solution, Like I gotta move,
Speaker 1: I'll just put you down. That aside. Um, I put
Speaker 1: out a ninth hour call. I think it's eleventh hour
Speaker 1: in the United States. Apparently in candidates a night hour.
Speaker 1: Uh put out a night hour call to this stuffy
Speaker 1: snow army and a nice person named Kevin Lyman asked
Speaker 1: everyone he knew if they could take her. And I'm
Speaker 1: happy to say that Evan's coworker cat. But the k
Speaker 1: picked Ava up and Ava as a cat from the
Speaker 1: vet appointment to save her life and then took her
Speaker 1: to be put down. No, I saw a picture. This
Speaker 1: cat was adorable. Uh, never underestimate the power of the stuff.
Speaker 1: You should know, Army and I think she shared this
Speaker 1: on Facebook and it, you know, it kind of happened that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's great. I love the show. Thank you for enriching
Speaker 1: our lives in so many ways. Your Canadian friend Sarah
Speaker 1: O x O thinks a lot. Sarah though was a
Speaker 1: great story. Yeah, it was appropriate for this. I told
Speaker 1: Sarah that, oh yeah, do you think about that? Cats
Speaker 1: are charismatic mini fauna. I told Sarah, we uh, an
Speaker 1: all likelihood are going to be coming up to the
Speaker 1: Great White Way, and I hope that's what it is
Speaker 1: for some shows this year. We're gonna be hit in Canada.
Speaker 1: I think so at least one. Yeah, we've been teasing
Speaker 1: these shows, but we're kind of nailing it all down.
Speaker 1: So listen up, all eight of you who still listen
Speaker 1: this deep into the show. We might be coming to
Speaker 1: a town near you. Yeah, and let everybody else know. Uh.
Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with this, you
Speaker 1: can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.
Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com slash stuff
Speaker 1: you Should Know. You can send us email to stuff
Speaker 1: Podcast at how stuff works dot com. Has always joined
Speaker 1: us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should
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Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com