WEBVTT - How Charismatic Megafauna Work 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:04.640 Welcome to Stuff you should Know from how Stuff Works 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:14.480 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:19.960 There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry Roland and 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.239 stuff you should not. My vocal cords are about to 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:28.320 split wide open. Are they sure you don't sound weird? Oh? 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:36.839 Really nice? I'm very Josh like. What is that is? He? 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:42.720 I think that's how you pronounce it? Um? Wait, you 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:47.120 got a little uh threat thing? No, you know, like 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.800 when you just talk too much? Have you been talking 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:54.200 too much? I guess, or you're stressed. I was under 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.080 the impression that, aside from these two hours, you just 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.920 sort of sit in silence and you and you meet 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:05.920 pantomime right everything we do? Uh, interpretive dance. Yeah, I 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.640 gotta say my my vocal courts. Babe. Well, I'm sorry 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.000 to hear that you sound normal. Well, I'm glad I 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:13.720 saund normal because I don't feel like I do. But 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.039 if I sound normal, who cares about how I feel? Oh? 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:23.679 Come on, everyone cares? No. Uh. This podcast, by the way, 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.160 has perhaps the best band name ever right there in 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:32.200 its title. I think it's overdone. Charismatic Megafauna. What do 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.880 you mean, like there's so many bands name that, or 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.720 you just think the name is too much the ladder 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.920 of those two, he's pretty good now, charismatic Mega fauna. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.720 I mean maybe for your second band, your side gig. No, no, no, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.440 like the second before you know, your third, fourth or 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.240 fifth one where you finally hit it. I'm still waiting 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:58.880 on that. Are you know the first? But a hobby 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.680 that offen the omega and nothing in between? How do 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.840 you like my Latin? Is that Greek? Now this is 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.600 off to a terrible start. No, this is great. So 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.720 I saw a T shirt the other day. Um, I 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:15.760 should give credit worre credits due you me saw a 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.160 T shirt the other day and showed it to me. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.000 It's pretty awesome, you know. Um it was a World 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:24.760 Wildlife Fund logo because you were just walking around kicking rocks. 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.920 She's not looking up. Look up every up, she panomimes, 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:33.480 look up now, pano back. Um it was the World 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:37.840 Wildlife Fund logo with the panda, but there was another 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.400 panda coming up behind it with a folding chair, which 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.359 is a play on the w WF. I've seen that before. Great, 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:49.240 great T shirt, um, But the fact that the panda 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:54.919 is the front man for the World Wildlife Foundation, one 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.840 of the biggest conservation organizations in the entire world. Is 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.960 actually a pretty good um example of the use of 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:10.639 a charismatic megafauna. Yeah um, which is also called a 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.200 flagship species, and it's um a term that came around 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.639 in the eighties. I tried to find track it back 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:18.799 to the person who thought of it. Couldn't either. I 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:24.320 couldn't do it. Let's go with Jack Hannah, all right, possible, Yeah, 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:29.240 it's possible. But basically it's very simple. This is a 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:34.080 koala or a panda right now, but sort of yes, um, 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:39.440 it's an animal that is like the poster child in 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:45.280 advertising for zoos and conservation groups because they're so stinking 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.680 cute and charismatic that people open their wallets to give 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.400 money towards conservation efforts. You just make it rain on them. Yeah, Like, 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.560 look at that panda. I can't My wallet is out 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.200 all of a sudden, and I'm just pulling Benjamin's out 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.160 and dropping them along this pandis trail. Yeah, that is 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.560 charismatic megafauna. It is. It's it's as simple as that. 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.880 And along the way, since it was kind of picked 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:15.360 up and coined and started to take seriously by conservationists. 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.840 It's become you know, much bigger and debated and everything. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.320 But it really helps to understand it and bring it 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.920 down to size when you realize that it's actually it's 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:31.560 a conservation idea, but it's actually a marketing term. That's 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.800 That's what the whole thing is that it has nothing 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.640 to do with the importance of the species to its ecosystem, 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.640 not necessarily. It doesn't even necessarily have to do with, um, 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.880 how endangered the species is. UM. It really has to 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:51.520 do with how cute and relatable humans find the species 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:57.240 so that it will generate the most financial contributions possible 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:01.400 towards conservation. Yeah, it's pretty int thing. And this UM 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.600 we did an episode I think a pretty good one 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.960 on zoos quite a while back, and the controversy around 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.080 zoos and if we should even have zoos, and I 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.760 think I think I remember us both sort of agreeing 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:16.800 like some zoos are terrible, and then most zoos are. 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.000 I don't know about most, but many zoos these days 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:23.000 do such great work they are now necessary. And um 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.680 two conservation efforts or go a long way towards conservation efforts, 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.479 but we still like it's a little creepy sometimes when 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.880 you see an elephant that should roam for thousands of 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.039 miles in a you know, relatively small area, it makes 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.240 you think they who knows? Yeah, But then like, man, 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.160 it's just that thing with zoos again. Then you also 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.000 see like a child get inspired to grow up to 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:46.680 be a zoologists because they fell in love with the 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.440 elephant at the zoo, and then they lead conservation efforts. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.440 So there's captive breeding programs that bring animals back from 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.960 the verge of extinction. Um, right, all this is stuff 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.960 to happen, but how often does it actually happen? Is? 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.680 I think the conservation efforts are constantly happening at most 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.920 zoos you need specifically bringing an animal back. Yeah, how 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.640 many zoologists are actually inspired by going to a zoo 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.560 as a child, like I mean, and is there a 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.360 better way to do it? I'm sure we got into 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.279 this in the in the Zoos episode. Since that, I 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.080 don't think I've been to a zoo. I think I've 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:21.640 been to a zoo once and I was like, I 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.159 can't go to zoos anymore. Well, I went to the 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.760 San Diego Zoo when we did our show there. Um, 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.840 and now I'm a member of the Atlanta Zoo because 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.680 I have a small child, And it's a great thing 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.520 to do with a small kid because it introduces them 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.920 the animals, which they love. It's really neat for them 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.159 to be able to see these things in person, and 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.880 it quite frankly wears her out, which is kind of 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.160 the one thing you're trying to do. Disappearance your child exhausted. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.840 How crazy that chimpanzee is from being locked up its 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.080 whole life, Like I bet you can't run from one 0:06:55.520 --> 0:07:01.480 animal exhibiting zookosis to the next as fast as you can. Um. So, anyway, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.600 I've been to the Atlanta Zoo here a few times 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.400 recently because of that, and still have mixed feelings, you know, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:10.160 but it's hard to not see like your twenty old 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.560 delight at seeing. I mean, one of these visits, we 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.680 caught a full on ape show. Really yeah, Like you know, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.360 sometimes you go to the zoo and everyone's hiding. You're like, yeah, 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.320 well that's neat. There's a tiger behind that rock somewhere. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.120 But um, we had a good day where these this 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:31.480 family of apes was just playing like crazy and like 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:36.640 this huge was it a gorilla? I can never remember 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.760 which monkeys which are apes. I think a gorilla is 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:45.120 a great ape. Well, this big daddy gorilla, I mean, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.160 just to see the strength of this dude moving around 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.520 and jumping around was amazing. And he would jump off 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.000 of a rock and clap his hands, and the little 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:58.400 kids were playing little baby gorillas and everyone was just 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.040 like literally in awe of what they were witnessing. It 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.640 was like they pumped them full of steroids cocaine they did. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:13.239 Right then, that guerrilla family was showing off their charisma. Yeah, 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:18.640 they have natural inherent charisma as far as um being 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:23.040 a charismatic species goes, because they're so relatable by humans. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:24.800 Well yeah, I mean that's one of the things like, hey, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:26.720 this one kind of looks like you. Don't you like 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:28.800 it more than other animals? Don't you want to give 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.640 us some money to protect them in the wild. And 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.880 that's the point of the charismatic mega fauna usage. Yeah, 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:42.959 that we're talking guerrillas, pandas, kualas, tigers, dolphins, killer whales. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:47.800 Thanks free Willy. Uh. They include lions in here, and 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.320 I guess so because they're magnificent. But lions don't do 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.040 a lot. Most of the big cats just sort of 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.760 lay around. Sure, they're not running around like the gorillas. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.120 You gotta throw your beer can at them to get 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:01.959 them going. They had an elephant paint a picture. They 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:09.080 did this little like it's a zoo, huh. They Yeah, 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:11.439 they put a paintbrush in its mouth and would hold 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.760 up a canvas and the elephant would like someone else, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.440 it's smacko with the riding crop until it But you 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.440 want to know it wasn't like that. But that's actually 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.920 you can buy um paintings by elephants, but apparently they're 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.040 not very well treated. Yeah, I don't think that's. I 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.720 think at the Atlanta Zoo they treat their animals very nicely. Sure, sure, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.960 I'm not saying that, but I mean on the internet 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.719 you can buy paintings by elephants, and yeah, if you 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.360 actually look into how the elephants are treated, probably wouldn't 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.400 want the painting. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.080 super activist person, but I don't. I don't mind. It's 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.440 a you know, it's a controversy. And you know what, 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.680 there was a tiger there that was clearly exhibiting zukosis. 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.560 He was pacing back and forth, and all I could 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:54.040 do was think about how much that sucks for that 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.559 tiger to be there. Well, it goes to that solitary 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.800 confinement thing the episode that we did, it's virtually the 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:01.840 same thing. I think you even brought up suitcases in 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.880 that episode too. You know, man, that's quite a long winded, 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.080 uh sort of intro. Huh, I guess so should we 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.120 take a break already? And yeah, I'm a little worked out. 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:38.040 Get it back on the tracks. Yeah, all right, I 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:43.319 shot Josh with a sedative from an elephant gun. Now 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.200 you're drifting off, I'm a little I'm feeling pretty good. 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.120 We got a pretty good bush. All right. So we're 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.559 talking about well a lot of things, but let's get 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:58.440 back to characteristic, charismatic. What's wrong with me today? So 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:02.760 I read this this article UM on charismatic mega fauna 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:07.000 and then it was a survey of other journal like 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.559 scholarly articles UM, and I think they read like seventy 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.960 of them because they're basically trying to figure out what 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:18.079 a charismatic mega fauna definition was. UM. Apparently it was 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.480 just all over the place. It was. It's it's extremely 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.480 non scientific, and I think it is part of the 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.240 problem because it's a marketing tool. Man. These people were 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.920 trying to like whip it into shape. The best definition 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.560 they found, um or, the best explanation of what makes 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:37.000 an animal charismatic was from a paper called Non Human 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.720 Charisma by A. Jay Lorimer written in two thousand seven. 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:47.520 Um there were I think four points. One was detectability 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.400 and distinctiveness. Anybody can look at a pan and be like, 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.080 that's panda. Oh yeah, I love panda's. Look at there's 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.480 one right there, there's a panda. Well, and I think 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.160 um In the they interviewed a couple of zool just 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:01.880 some one of them and said, you might even know 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.079 a few facts about this. It's just a regular non 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:13.440 zoo enthusiast, Like panda's eat bamboo. Well, I was gonna 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.240 say that, but then I thought that was a koala, 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.680 and I was gonna koalaz eucalyptus. Yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:24.160 pantasy bamboo by the bushel. But you can point out 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.360 a pan and you're not like, I can't tell if 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.760 that's a camel rat or a humpback rat. You know, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.600 like where it's it's just the same as everything else. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.760 It has to be its own thing. That is really 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:39.920 that stands out. Another one is socioeconomic biases, So basically 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:45.360 how a society feels about the animal, right, So like 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.280 do I want to kill the rat or hug the panda? Exactly? 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.719 That's exactly right. Um. Aesthetics is another one, like is 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.960 it cute? Is it cuddly? Is it beautiful? Is it majestic? 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:01.600 Does it look like um, you know, uh uh, I 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.160 don't know a fat dude, right, you know, does it 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:06.680 like kind of look like it should be wearing a 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.920 hard hat and carrying like a lunch pail that kind 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.080 of thing. Is it relatable? Yeah, that panda, it looks 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.640 like Kevin James was wearing a black lone range of mask. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.120 He doesn't love Kevin James wearing a black clone arrangement man. 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.240 And then the last one is the potential to generate satisfaction. Right. 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:28.480 So let's say that you see a panda and you're like, 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.440 I want to know what that is. I want to 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.400 know all about pandas, and you find out pandas are 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.760 really boring. There's not a lot to them. There's not 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.280 a lot to be said. Um, they do they don't 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.280 do anything it's not going to generate much satisfaction intellectually. 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.520 So if if you have an animal that checks all 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.719 these boxes, it's relatable, your society feels good about it. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.640 It's cute, it's cuddly, it stands out on its own, 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.520 and and um, it has a lot, a lot to 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:02.640 offer intellectually, You've got a charismatic animal. Yeah, wow, I 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.160 like that. Well tell Ja Lormer, do you like it? 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.240 Jay Loremer? If you're out there, it's wonderful work. Uh. 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.360 So we're gonna cover sort of the good points and 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:18.200 bad points about this characterization. But um, when it works 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.000 is when the character uh keep saying characteristic, what is 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.240 wrong with me? Charismatic Megaphona functions as what's known as 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:30.040 an umbrella species, which is to say, um, because people 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.560 are giving money to some sort of conservation effort towards 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:39.360 this animal. Um, it's helping two protect and serve other 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:44.680 animals within that ecosystem the cop Yeah. Yeah, And by 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.640 the way that that makes sense, it does it does? 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:49.280 You have to kind of step back and think about 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.200 it though, you know, like, how does protecting, say like 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:56.080 a wolf help the rest of the ecosystem. Well, a 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:01.960 wolf feeds on smaller animals, let's say small chill under 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:06.600 the right circumstances. Unfortunately, Um, they typically they'll feed on 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:11.880 smaller animals, which say feed on insects, which say, feed 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:16.200 on plants. Um. So that means that if a wolf 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:20.680 is happy and healthy and it's normal ecosystem, that means 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.240 that all these other species that make up the food 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:25.600 web that the wolf is a part of must be 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:30.000 happy and healthy too. So and that's it's an it's 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.440 an umbrella species, like you said, where if you take 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.080 care of the wolf, you're inadvertently taking care of the 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.440 rest of them. So that's fine. Yeah. And in one 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:44.200 of the interviews in here, um, who is this person Braccini? 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.720 Was that from the Atlanta Zoo. Yeah. Dr Stephanie Braccini, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.760 she says, and this is to me kind of says 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.640 it all. It would be nice if endangered species status 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:02.400 was correlated to a charismatic variable, but that's not necessarily 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.400 or often the case. And she brings up the point 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.600 of muscles spanglers. Freshwater muscle is critically endangered but has 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.600 no charisma, so you know, there's no correlation there. In 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.880 case the panda, there is because they were endangered, and 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.680 I think now they're just threatened, right, But there's not 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:21.400 always that correlation. She's like, it would be kind of 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.400 great if this was you know, this is always the case. Yeah, 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.640 I think the point underlying the use of charismatic mega 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:33.360 fauna is just knowing that something is on the verge 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.640 of going extinct has been proven not to be enough 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.240 to get humans to act to do anything about it 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.400 has to be cute too, And so what conservationists are saying, 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.840 after God, you're so stupid, they say, Okay, we can 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.720 work with this. See this cute little animal, save this animal, 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.720 give us your money, and then they take it and 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.760 and actually use it for the whole ecosystem rather than 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.520 just the animal. Yeah, and that's such a human thing. 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.440 Like the same can and has been said about like 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:10.040 kidnapped children or uh or the sex trade, Like it 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:14.280 takes some you know, cute little blonde girl to make 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.840 the news, you know, right, And that's kind of always 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.240 been the case. Well, and it's not it's not just 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:26.000 social either. It's not just society, although society definitely values attractiveness. 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.960 There have been plenty of studies about people with facial differences, right, 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.920 which is Um, like the people used to call them 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.920 disfigured people. Now it's called facial differences. I think that's 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.720 a great improvement, right, But um, they have been studies 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:45.320 with babies and they prefer people who, um, don't have 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:51.200 facial differences, who follow more like a typical facial profile 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:55.960 or feature, right, compared to people who have facial differences. 0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:00.159 And that suggests that it's hardwired. So babies pause up 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.440 on this. Yeah yeah, yeah, Um. And the idea that 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.840 you're basically born to prefer, say, facial symmetry or something 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.320 like that, it really kind of falls in line with 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:14.080 this too. It's almost like you you can't help but say, yes, 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.800 I care about this cute little baby pand or whatever 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:22.480 because it's cute, whereas this other thing that is way 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.840 more endangered and deserves our attention way more because it's 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.280 actually a keystone species, which we'll talk about. Um, it's 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.840 not cute, so I can't really care about it. I'm 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.280 not hardwired to do that. Yeah, it's kind of like 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.880 that thing we've talked about before and I think recently, 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.560 where you prefer things that look like you because evolutionarily 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.199 anything else Back in Took Took's days might have been 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.600 a threat exactly. Yeah, right, So it's easy to be 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.080 hard on people, but when you kind of look at 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:55.000 the evolutionary aspect of it, like, you know, well they 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.520 did to understand as well. Yeah, that whole in group 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.080 outgroup thing. If we can get past that, it seems 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:06.159 like we are we've evolved socially faster than we've evolved biologically, 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.280 and that it just hasn't kept up. If we could 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.760 just get past that whole in group out group thing, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.720 who knows what kind of world we'd be living in. 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.680 High school would be so great. Yeah, everybody would be like, 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:23.680 I love high school. So um. You talked about keystone species. Uh, 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:28.240 that is a species that actually performs like a really 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:32.159 vital role in their ecosystem. Yeah, where like if you 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.480 took them out, the ecosystem would be so altered, so 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.960 drastically altered, it probably wouldn't resemble itself any longer. It 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:44.000 may just go away altogether, like a honeybee or like coral. Yeah, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.080 you know where like if it's gone, you're in trouble. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.879 The thing is is a lot of charismatic megafauna aren't 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.800 keystone species. It actually doesn't really matter as far as 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.600 the ecosystem is concerned. If the pandas there, so there's 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.760 some other species in that ecosystem that will do the 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.200 same play the same role that the panda oil. There's 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.760 pandas right now listening that said. Did you just hear 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.200 that guy? Let's go kid him. Have you ever seen 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.720 a panda attack and kill a podcaster? Yes? Once, It's 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:20.439 very distressing. Pandas are supposed to be super vicious, are they? Oh? Yeah, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.440 I thought that was a koala. Koala's as well. They're 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.159 all vicious, aren't they. Did you see the giraffe give birth? No? 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.000 I heard a lot of people talking about sitting around 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.760 and watching it forever and ever, but I didn't check 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.720 it out. It was hilariously sponsored. The webcam was sponsored 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:40.400 by Toys r US. You know Jeffrey giraffe, his family. 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:45.920 Well there you go. Interesting. Um, there's no accident, right, 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:50.199 I don't think so. Uh. They're also something called or 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.360 there is also something called an indicator species. And this 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.080 is like if you want to know how an ecosystem 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:01.000 is going. Uh, like, let's say, how's the the bayou doing. 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.080 Let's go look at the crayfish, because that would be 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.280 a good indicator of how everything else is doing. If 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.760 the crayfish numbers are down, that means something's going on, right, 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.199 or if there's if the canaries are dying off in 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:16.159 the coal mine, you've got gas right. Well. But in 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.800 the same way though, it's just uh, an umbrella species 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.720 can also be an indicator species, and that like if 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.360 the wolf can't survive, that means that all the other 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.840 parts of the food web are messed up too, and 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.240 they can also be an indicator species. Yeah. I don't 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:35.879 think that's that's how indicator species is used every time, 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.960 but it's a it's a an argument in favor of 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:43.560 using charismatic megafauna for conservation. Um. So we've been talking 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:45.719 a lot about you know, people want to give the 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.320 things that look like them and that are cute. Uh, 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:50.399 that this has been proven out with studies. We're not 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.119 just bloviating. Um well, I guess we are. But in 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:57.359 addition to bloviating, we're not making stuff up because the 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:02.159 University of Arizona go wildcats right, Yes, they did a 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:06.440 study and did find that people support preservation efforts. Oh wait, 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:12.560 now that's the sun devils. No, that's airs on state. Okay, Yeah, wildcats. Uh, 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.840 people did support efforts for animals that are attractive and 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.080 that do look more human. Um. And they even found 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:27.160 that women support uh scary animals even less than men. Right, 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:31.360 Like you know, preservation for a snake population or uh 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:34.000 maybe an insect or something. Yeah, so this is like 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:41.200 a barn as In approach to conservation. Yeah, promoting conservation. Um. 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:46.760 Also if you're if you are using charismatic megafauna for conservation, 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:51.280 um like it. It actually can have beneficial results, right, 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.560 It's not just like theoretically this should help. Like elephants, 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.520 everybody loves elephants. There's not a personal life who doesn't 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.600 like elephants in the West, I should say, right, um, 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:06.200 the and who knows why. They're very cute, they're very sweet, 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.520 they grieve over their dead, they do all sorts of 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:13.760 interesting stuff, right, Um. And they've used elephants to uh 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:18.600 basically as poster species for poaching campaigns. A lot more 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.080 than just elephants are poached. Everything from whale sharks to 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:28.399 rhinos to uh, well, elephants are poached. But the idea 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:31.560 of giving money to andy poaching campaigns because you you 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.480 feel like I want to help that elephant here's a check. 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.560 It's actually going and helping all these other species as well. 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:40.879 There's supposedly there's like thirty five thousand species that are 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.080 subject to poaching. Yeah, and the other example they've given 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.040 this article is the American bald eagle, which in the 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.840 sixties and seventies there was a big movement They're like, 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:55.240 this is America's bird. Yeah, dang it. You know Ben 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.080 Franklin wanted the turkey. I think I didn't know that 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:04.119 very interesting, not that you're ducking no, that would have 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.840 been even better. But yeah, in the sixties and seventies, 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:09.720 people were like, this is America's bird, we have to 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:13.480 save the American bald eagle. Um, and it worked there. 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:16.440 I think it's not even endangered any longer, right, I 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:20.080 don't think so. My in laws just saw one in Florida. Yeah, 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:24.560 pretty neat. Yeah, kind of just think associate them with 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:27.960 like Alaska and yeah, Pacific Northwest. But there was along 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:31.679 the Gulf. Yeah, there's like a whole group in the Gulf, 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:34.320 and there's a whole group up in the Great White Way. 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:38.280 Well above that, that's the Great White Way. I think 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:41.200 it's Broadway, isn't it. I don't know, I've never heard 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:45.119 the Broadway or Canada. I think it's Broadway. But I 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.200 thought it was Canada because I heard Scott Thompson from 0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:51.439 the Kids in the Hall called Broadway that. So I 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:53.440 was like, I guess he's talking about Canada, and then 0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:55.520 I found out he's like, it was Broadway. I think 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.120 it's Broadway. That was way more complex than I thought. 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.520