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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should Know from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.

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Speaker 1: There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry Roland and

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Speaker 1: stuff you should not. My vocal cords are about to

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Speaker 1: split wide open. Are they sure you don't sound weird? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Really nice? I'm very Josh like. What is that is? He?

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Speaker 1: I think that's how you pronounce it? Um? Wait, you

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Speaker 1: got a little uh threat thing? No, you know, like

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Speaker 1: when you just talk too much? Have you been talking

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Speaker 1: too much? I guess, or you're stressed. I was under

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Speaker 1: the impression that, aside from these two hours, you just

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Speaker 1: sort of sit in silence and you and you meet

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Speaker 1: pantomime right everything we do? Uh, interpretive dance. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: gotta say my my vocal courts. Babe. Well, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: to hear that you sound normal. Well, I'm glad I

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Speaker 1: saund normal because I don't feel like I do. But

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Speaker 1: if I sound normal, who cares about how I feel? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Come on, everyone cares? No. Uh. This podcast, by the way,

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Speaker 1: has perhaps the best band name ever right there in

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Speaker 1: its title. I think it's overdone. Charismatic Megafauna. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean, like there's so many bands name that, or

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Speaker 1: you just think the name is too much the ladder

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Speaker 1: of those two, he's pretty good now, charismatic Mega fauna.

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe for your second band, your side gig. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: like the second before you know, your third, fourth or

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Speaker 1: fifth one where you finally hit it. I'm still waiting

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Speaker 1: on that. Are you know the first? But a hobby

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Speaker 1: that offen the omega and nothing in between? How do

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Speaker 1: you like my Latin? Is that Greek? Now this is

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Speaker 1: off to a terrible start. No, this is great. So

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Speaker 1: I saw a T shirt the other day. Um, I

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Speaker 1: should give credit worre credits due you me saw a

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Speaker 1: T shirt the other day and showed it to me.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome, you know. Um it was a World

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Speaker 1: Wildlife Fund logo because you were just walking around kicking rocks.

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Speaker 1: She's not looking up. Look up every up, she panomimes,

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Speaker 1: look up now, pano back. Um it was the World

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Speaker 1: Wildlife Fund logo with the panda, but there was another

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Speaker 1: panda coming up behind it with a folding chair, which

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Speaker 1: is a play on the w WF. I've seen that before. Great,

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Speaker 1: great T shirt, um, But the fact that the panda

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Speaker 1: is the front man for the World Wildlife Foundation, one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest conservation organizations in the entire world. Is

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Speaker 1: actually a pretty good um example of the use of

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Speaker 1: a charismatic megafauna. Yeah um, which is also called a

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Speaker 1: flagship species, and it's um a term that came around

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Speaker 1: in the eighties. I tried to find track it back

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Speaker 1: to the person who thought of it. Couldn't either. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't do it. Let's go with Jack Hannah, all right, possible, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's possible. But basically it's very simple. This is a

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Speaker 1: koala or a panda right now, but sort of yes, um,

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Speaker 1: it's an animal that is like the poster child in

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Speaker 1: advertising for zoos and conservation groups because they're so stinking

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Speaker 1: cute and charismatic that people open their wallets to give

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Speaker 1: money towards conservation efforts. You just make it rain on them. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: look at that panda. I can't My wallet is out

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, and I'm just pulling Benjamin's out

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Speaker 1: and dropping them along this pandis trail. Yeah, that is

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Speaker 1: charismatic megafauna. It is. It's it's as simple as that.

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Speaker 1: And along the way, since it was kind of picked

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Speaker 1: up and coined and started to take seriously by conservationists.

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Speaker 1: It's become you know, much bigger and debated and everything.

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Speaker 1: But it really helps to understand it and bring it

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Speaker 1: down to size when you realize that it's actually it's

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Speaker 1: a conservation idea, but it's actually a marketing term. That's

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Speaker 1: That's what the whole thing is that it has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with the importance of the species to its ecosystem,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily. It doesn't even necessarily have to do with, um,

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Speaker 1: how endangered the species is. UM. It really has to

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Speaker 1: do with how cute and relatable humans find the species

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Speaker 1: so that it will generate the most financial contributions possible

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Speaker 1: towards conservation. Yeah, it's pretty int thing. And this UM

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Speaker 1: we did an episode I think a pretty good one

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Speaker 1: on zoos quite a while back, and the controversy around

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Speaker 1: zoos and if we should even have zoos, and I

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Speaker 1: think I think I remember us both sort of agreeing

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Speaker 1: like some zoos are terrible, and then most zoos are.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about most, but many zoos these days

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Speaker 1: do such great work they are now necessary. And um

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Speaker 1: two conservation efforts or go a long way towards conservation efforts,

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Speaker 1: but we still like it's a little creepy sometimes when

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Speaker 1: you see an elephant that should roam for thousands of

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Speaker 1: miles in a you know, relatively small area, it makes

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Speaker 1: you think they who knows? Yeah, But then like, man,

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Speaker 1: it's just that thing with zoos again. Then you also

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Speaker 1: see like a child get inspired to grow up to

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Speaker 1: be a zoologists because they fell in love with the

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Speaker 1: elephant at the zoo, and then they lead conservation efforts.

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Speaker 1: So there's captive breeding programs that bring animals back from

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Speaker 1: the verge of extinction. Um, right, all this is stuff

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Speaker 1: to happen, but how often does it actually happen? Is?

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Speaker 1: I think the conservation efforts are constantly happening at most

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Speaker 1: zoos you need specifically bringing an animal back. Yeah, how

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Speaker 1: many zoologists are actually inspired by going to a zoo

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Speaker 1: as a child, like I mean, and is there a

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Speaker 1: better way to do it? I'm sure we got into

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Speaker 1: this in the in the Zoos episode. Since that, I

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Speaker 1: don't think I've been to a zoo. I think I've

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Speaker 1: been to a zoo once and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: can't go to zoos anymore. Well, I went to the

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Speaker 1: San Diego Zoo when we did our show there. Um,

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Speaker 1: and now I'm a member of the Atlanta Zoo because

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Speaker 1: I have a small child, And it's a great thing

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Speaker 1: to do with a small kid because it introduces them

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Speaker 1: the animals, which they love. It's really neat for them

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Speaker 1: to be able to see these things in person, and

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Speaker 1: it quite frankly wears her out, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: the one thing you're trying to do. Disappearance your child exhausted.

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Speaker 1: How crazy that chimpanzee is from being locked up its

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Speaker 1: whole life, Like I bet you can't run from one

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Speaker 1: animal exhibiting zookosis to the next as fast as you can. Um. So, anyway,

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Speaker 1: I've been to the Atlanta Zoo here a few times

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Speaker 1: recently because of that, and still have mixed feelings, you know,

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Speaker 1: but it's hard to not see like your twenty old

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Speaker 1: delight at seeing. I mean, one of these visits, we

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Speaker 1: caught a full on ape show. Really yeah, Like you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you go to the zoo and everyone's hiding. You're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well that's neat. There's a tiger behind that rock somewhere.

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Speaker 1: But um, we had a good day where these this

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Speaker 1: family of apes was just playing like crazy and like

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Speaker 1: this huge was it a gorilla? I can never remember

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Speaker 1: which monkeys which are apes. I think a gorilla is

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Speaker 1: a great ape. Well, this big daddy gorilla, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just to see the strength of this dude moving around

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Speaker 1: and jumping around was amazing. And he would jump off

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Speaker 1: of a rock and clap his hands, and the little

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Speaker 1: kids were playing little baby gorillas and everyone was just

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Speaker 1: like literally in awe of what they were witnessing. It

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Speaker 1: was like they pumped them full of steroids cocaine they did.

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Speaker 1: Right then, that guerrilla family was showing off their charisma. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they have natural inherent charisma as far as um being

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Speaker 1: a charismatic species goes, because they're so relatable by humans.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean that's one of the things like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this one kind of looks like you. Don't you like

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Speaker 1: it more than other animals? Don't you want to give

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Speaker 1: us some money to protect them in the wild. And

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Speaker 1: that's the point of the charismatic mega fauna usage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that we're talking guerrillas, pandas, kualas, tigers, dolphins, killer whales.

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Speaker 1: Thanks free Willy. Uh. They include lions in here, and

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Speaker 1: I guess so because they're magnificent. But lions don't do

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Speaker 1: a lot. Most of the big cats just sort of

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Speaker 1: lay around. Sure, they're not running around like the gorillas.

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Speaker 1: You gotta throw your beer can at them to get

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Speaker 1: them going. They had an elephant paint a picture. They

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Speaker 1: did this little like it's a zoo, huh. They Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they put a paintbrush in its mouth and would hold

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Speaker 1: up a canvas and the elephant would like someone else,

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Speaker 1: it's smacko with the riding crop until it But you

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Speaker 1: want to know it wasn't like that. But that's actually

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Speaker 1: you can buy um paintings by elephants, but apparently they're

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Speaker 1: not very well treated. Yeah, I don't think that's. I

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Speaker 1: think at the Atlanta Zoo they treat their animals very nicely. Sure, sure,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that, but I mean on the internet

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Speaker 1: you can buy paintings by elephants, and yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: actually look into how the elephants are treated, probably wouldn't

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Speaker 1: want the painting. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be

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Speaker 1: super activist person, but I don't. I don't mind. It's

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Speaker 1: a you know, it's a controversy. And you know what,

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Speaker 1: there was a tiger there that was clearly exhibiting zukosis.

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Speaker 1: He was pacing back and forth, and all I could

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Speaker 1: do was think about how much that sucks for that

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Speaker 1: tiger to be there. Well, it goes to that solitary

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Speaker 1: confinement thing the episode that we did, it's virtually the

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Speaker 1: same thing. I think you even brought up suitcases in

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Speaker 1: that episode too. You know, man, that's quite a long winded,

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Speaker 1: uh sort of intro. Huh, I guess so should we

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Speaker 1: take a break already? And yeah, I'm a little worked out.

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Speaker 1: Get it back on the tracks. Yeah, all right, I

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Speaker 1: shot Josh with a sedative from an elephant gun. Now

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Speaker 1: you're drifting off, I'm a little I'm feeling pretty good.

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Speaker 1: We got a pretty good bush. All right. So we're

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Speaker 1: talking about well a lot of things, but let's get

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Speaker 1: back to characteristic, charismatic. What's wrong with me today? So

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Speaker 1: I read this this article UM on charismatic mega fauna

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Speaker 1: and then it was a survey of other journal like

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Speaker 1: scholarly articles UM, and I think they read like seventy

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Speaker 1: of them because they're basically trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: a charismatic mega fauna definition was. UM. Apparently it was

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Speaker 1: just all over the place. It was. It's it's extremely

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Speaker 1: non scientific, and I think it is part of the

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Speaker 1: problem because it's a marketing tool. Man. These people were

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Speaker 1: trying to like whip it into shape. The best definition

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Speaker 1: they found, um or, the best explanation of what makes

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Speaker 1: an animal charismatic was from a paper called Non Human

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Speaker 1: Charisma by A. Jay Lorimer written in two thousand seven.

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Speaker 1: Um there were I think four points. One was detectability

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Speaker 1: and distinctiveness. Anybody can look at a pan and be like,

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Speaker 1: that's panda. Oh yeah, I love panda's. Look at there's

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Speaker 1: one right there, there's a panda. Well, and I think

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Speaker 1: um In the they interviewed a couple of zool just

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Speaker 1: some one of them and said, you might even know

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Speaker 1: a few facts about this. It's just a regular non

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Speaker 1: zoo enthusiast, Like panda's eat bamboo. Well, I was gonna

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Speaker 1: say that, but then I thought that was a koala,

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Speaker 1: and I was gonna koalaz eucalyptus. Yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: pantasy bamboo by the bushel. But you can point out

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Speaker 1: a pan and you're not like, I can't tell if

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Speaker 1: that's a camel rat or a humpback rat. You know,

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Speaker 1: like where it's it's just the same as everything else.

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Speaker 1: It has to be its own thing. That is really

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Speaker 1: that stands out. Another one is socioeconomic biases, So basically

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Speaker 1: how a society feels about the animal, right, So like

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Speaker 1: do I want to kill the rat or hug the panda? Exactly?

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Um. Aesthetics is another one, like is

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Speaker 1: it cute? Is it cuddly? Is it beautiful? Is it majestic?

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Speaker 1: Does it look like um, you know, uh uh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know a fat dude, right, you know, does it

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Speaker 1: like kind of look like it should be wearing a

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Speaker 1: hard hat and carrying like a lunch pail that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Is it relatable? Yeah, that panda, it looks

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Speaker 1: like Kevin James was wearing a black lone range of mask.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't love Kevin James wearing a black clone arrangement man.

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Speaker 1: And then the last one is the potential to generate satisfaction. Right.

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Speaker 1: So let's say that you see a panda and you're like,

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Speaker 1: I want to know what that is. I want to

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Speaker 1: know all about pandas, and you find out pandas are

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Speaker 1: really boring. There's not a lot to them. There's not

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Speaker 1: a lot to be said. Um, they do they don't

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Speaker 1: do anything it's not going to generate much satisfaction intellectually.

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Speaker 1: So if if you have an animal that checks all

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Speaker 1: these boxes, it's relatable, your society feels good about it.

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Speaker 1: It's cute, it's cuddly, it stands out on its own,

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Speaker 1: and and um, it has a lot, a lot to

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Speaker 1: offer intellectually, You've got a charismatic animal. Yeah, wow, I

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Speaker 1: like that. Well tell Ja Lormer, do you like it?

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Speaker 1: Jay Loremer? If you're out there, it's wonderful work. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna cover sort of the good points and

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Speaker 1: bad points about this characterization. But um, when it works

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Speaker 1: is when the character uh keep saying characteristic, what is

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Speaker 1: wrong with me? Charismatic Megaphona functions as what's known as

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Speaker 1: an umbrella species, which is to say, um, because people

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Speaker 1: are giving money to some sort of conservation effort towards

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Speaker 1: this animal. Um, it's helping two protect and serve other

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Speaker 1: animals within that ecosystem the cop Yeah. Yeah, And by

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Speaker 1: the way that that makes sense, it does it does?

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Speaker 1: You have to kind of step back and think about

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Speaker 1: it though, you know, like, how does protecting, say like

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Speaker 1: a wolf help the rest of the ecosystem. Well, a

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Speaker 1: wolf feeds on smaller animals, let's say small chill under

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Speaker 1: the right circumstances. Unfortunately, Um, they typically they'll feed on

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Speaker 1: smaller animals, which say feed on insects, which say, feed

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Speaker 1: on plants. Um. So that means that if a wolf

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Speaker 1: is happy and healthy and it's normal ecosystem, that means

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Speaker 1: that all these other species that make up the food

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Speaker 1: web that the wolf is a part of must be

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Speaker 1: happy and healthy too. So and that's it's an it's

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Speaker 1: an umbrella species, like you said, where if you take

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Speaker 1: care of the wolf, you're inadvertently taking care of the

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Speaker 1: rest of them. So that's fine. Yeah. And in one

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Speaker 1: of the interviews in here, um, who is this person Braccini?

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Speaker 1: Was that from the Atlanta Zoo. Yeah. Dr Stephanie Braccini,

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Speaker 1: she says, and this is to me kind of says

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Speaker 1: it all. It would be nice if endangered species status

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Speaker 1: was correlated to a charismatic variable, but that's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: or often the case. And she brings up the point

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Speaker 1: of muscles spanglers. Freshwater muscle is critically endangered but has

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Speaker 1: no charisma, so you know, there's no correlation there. In

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Speaker 1: case the panda, there is because they were endangered, and

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Speaker 1: I think now they're just threatened, right, But there's not

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Speaker 1: always that correlation. She's like, it would be kind of

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Speaker 1: great if this was you know, this is always the case. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the point underlying the use of charismatic mega

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Speaker 1: fauna is just knowing that something is on the verge

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Speaker 1: of going extinct has been proven not to be enough

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Speaker 1: to get humans to act to do anything about it

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Speaker 1: has to be cute too, And so what conservationists are saying,

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Speaker 1: after God, you're so stupid, they say, Okay, we can

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Speaker 1: work with this. See this cute little animal, save this animal,

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Speaker 1: give us your money, and then they take it and

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Speaker 1: and actually use it for the whole ecosystem rather than

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Speaker 1: just the animal. Yeah, and that's such a human thing.

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Speaker 1: Like the same can and has been said about like

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Speaker 1: kidnapped children or uh or the sex trade, Like it

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Speaker 1: takes some you know, cute little blonde girl to make

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Speaker 1: the news, you know, right, And that's kind of always

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Speaker 1: been the case. Well, and it's not it's not just

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Speaker 1: social either. It's not just society, although society definitely values attractiveness.

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Speaker 1: There have been plenty of studies about people with facial differences, right,

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Speaker 1: which is Um, like the people used to call them

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Speaker 1: disfigured people. Now it's called facial differences. I think that's

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Speaker 1: a great improvement, right, But um, they have been studies

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Speaker 1: with babies and they prefer people who, um, don't have

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Speaker 1: facial differences, who follow more like a typical facial profile

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Speaker 1: or feature, right, compared to people who have facial differences.

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Speaker 1: And that suggests that it's hardwired. So babies pause up

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Speaker 1: on this. Yeah yeah, yeah, Um. And the idea that

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Speaker 1: you're basically born to prefer, say, facial symmetry or something

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Speaker 1: like that, it really kind of falls in line with

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Speaker 1: this too. It's almost like you you can't help but say, yes,

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Speaker 1: I care about this cute little baby pand or whatever

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Speaker 1: because it's cute, whereas this other thing that is way

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Speaker 1: more endangered and deserves our attention way more because it's

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Speaker 1: actually a keystone species, which we'll talk about. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: not cute, so I can't really care about it. I'm

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Speaker 1: not hardwired to do that. Yeah, it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: that thing we've talked about before and I think recently,

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Speaker 1: where you prefer things that look like you because evolutionarily

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Speaker 1: anything else Back in Took Took's days might have been

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Speaker 1: a threat exactly. Yeah, right, So it's easy to be

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Speaker 1: hard on people, but when you kind of look at

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Speaker 1: the evolutionary aspect of it, like, you know, well they

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Speaker 1: did to understand as well. Yeah, that whole in group

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Speaker 1: outgroup thing. If we can get past that, it seems

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Speaker 1: like we are we've evolved socially faster than we've evolved biologically,

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Speaker 1: and that it just hasn't kept up. If we could

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Speaker 1: just get past that whole in group out group thing,

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Speaker 1: who knows what kind of world we'd be living in.

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Speaker 1: High school would be so great. Yeah, everybody would be like,

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Speaker 1: I love high school. So um. You talked about keystone species. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that is a species that actually performs like a really

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Speaker 1: vital role in their ecosystem. Yeah, where like if you

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Speaker 1: took them out, the ecosystem would be so altered, so

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Speaker 1: drastically altered, it probably wouldn't resemble itself any longer. It

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Speaker 1: may just go away altogether, like a honeybee or like coral. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know where like if it's gone, you're in trouble.

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Speaker 1: The thing is is a lot of charismatic megafauna aren't

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Speaker 1: keystone species. It actually doesn't really matter as far as

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Speaker 1: the ecosystem is concerned. If the pandas there, so there's

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Speaker 1: some other species in that ecosystem that will do the

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Speaker 1: same play the same role that the panda oil. There's

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Speaker 1: pandas right now listening that said. Did you just hear

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Speaker 1: that guy? Let's go kid him. Have you ever seen

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Speaker 1: a panda attack and kill a podcaster? Yes? Once, It's

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Speaker 1: very distressing. Pandas are supposed to be super vicious, are they? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought that was a koala. Koala's as well. They're

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Speaker 1: all vicious, aren't they. Did you see the giraffe give birth? No?

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Speaker 1: I heard a lot of people talking about sitting around

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Speaker 1: and watching it forever and ever, but I didn't check

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Speaker 1: it out. It was hilariously sponsored. The webcam was sponsored

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Speaker 1: by Toys r US. You know Jeffrey giraffe, his family.

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Speaker 1: Well there you go. Interesting. Um, there's no accident, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. Uh. They're also something called or

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Speaker 1: there is also something called an indicator species. And this

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Speaker 1: is like if you want to know how an ecosystem

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Speaker 1: is going. Uh, like, let's say, how's the the bayou doing.

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Speaker 1: Let's go look at the crayfish, because that would be

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Speaker 1: a good indicator of how everything else is doing. If

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Speaker 1: the crayfish numbers are down, that means something's going on, right,

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Speaker 1: or if there's if the canaries are dying off in

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Speaker 1: the coal mine, you've got gas right. Well. But in

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Speaker 1: the same way though, it's just uh, an umbrella species

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Speaker 1: can also be an indicator species, and that like if

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Speaker 1: the wolf can't survive, that means that all the other

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Speaker 1: parts of the food web are messed up too, and

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Speaker 1: they can also be an indicator species. Yeah. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's that's how indicator species is used every time,

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Speaker 1: but it's a it's a an argument in favor of

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Speaker 1: using charismatic megafauna for conservation. Um. So we've been talking

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Speaker 1: a lot about you know, people want to give the

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Speaker 1: things that look like them and that are cute. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that this has been proven out with studies. We're not

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Speaker 1: just bloviating. Um well, I guess we are. But in

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Speaker 1: addition to bloviating, we're not making stuff up because the

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Speaker 1: University of Arizona go wildcats right, Yes, they did a

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Speaker 1: study and did find that people support preservation efforts. Oh wait,

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Speaker 1: now that's the sun devils. No, that's airs on state. Okay, Yeah, wildcats. Uh,

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Speaker 1: people did support efforts for animals that are attractive and

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Speaker 1: that do look more human. Um. And they even found

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Speaker 1: that women support uh scary animals even less than men. Right,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, preservation for a snake population or uh

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Speaker 1: maybe an insect or something. Yeah, so this is like

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Speaker 1: a barn as In approach to conservation. Yeah, promoting conservation. Um.

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Speaker 1: Also if you're if you are using charismatic megafauna for conservation,

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Speaker 1: um like it. It actually can have beneficial results, right,

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Speaker 1: It's not just like theoretically this should help. Like elephants,

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Speaker 1: everybody loves elephants. There's not a personal life who doesn't

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Speaker 1: like elephants in the West, I should say, right, um,

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Speaker 1: the and who knows why. They're very cute, they're very sweet,

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Speaker 1: they grieve over their dead, they do all sorts of

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Speaker 1: interesting stuff, right, Um. And they've used elephants to uh

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Speaker 1: basically as poster species for poaching campaigns. A lot more

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Speaker 1: than just elephants are poached. Everything from whale sharks to

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Speaker 1: rhinos to uh, well, elephants are poached. But the idea

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Speaker 1: of giving money to andy poaching campaigns because you you

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Speaker 1: feel like I want to help that elephant here's a check.

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Speaker 1: It's actually going and helping all these other species as well.

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Speaker 1: There's supposedly there's like thirty five thousand species that are

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Speaker 1: subject to poaching. Yeah, and the other example they've given

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Speaker 1: this article is the American bald eagle, which in the

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Speaker 1: sixties and seventies there was a big movement They're like,

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Speaker 1: this is America's bird. Yeah, dang it. You know Ben

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Speaker 1: Franklin wanted the turkey. I think I didn't know that

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Speaker 1: very interesting, not that you're ducking no, that would have

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Speaker 1: been even better. But yeah, in the sixties and seventies,

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Speaker 1: people were like, this is America's bird, we have to

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Speaker 1: save the American bald eagle. Um, and it worked there.

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Speaker 1: I think it's not even endangered any longer, right, I

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Speaker 1: don't think so. My in laws just saw one in Florida. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: pretty neat. Yeah, kind of just think associate them with

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Speaker 1: like Alaska and yeah, Pacific Northwest. But there was along

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Speaker 1: the Gulf. Yeah, there's like a whole group in the Gulf,

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Speaker 1: and there's a whole group up in the Great White Way.

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Speaker 1: Well above that, that's the Great White Way. I think

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Speaker 1: it's Broadway, isn't it. I don't know, I've never heard

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Speaker 1: the Broadway or Canada. I think it's Broadway. But I

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Speaker 1: thought it was Canada because I heard Scott Thompson from

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Speaker 1: the Kids in the Hall called Broadway that. So I

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Speaker 1: was like, I guess he's talking about Canada, and then

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Speaker 1: I found out he's like, it was Broadway. I think

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Speaker 1: it's Broadway. That was way more complex than I thought.

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Speaker 1: Um and the panda, you know, we mentioned um there

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Speaker 1: come back. They have a wild population increase over the

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Speaker 1: past ten or so years, largely because you know, people

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Speaker 1: love pandas. They'll open up the wallet. And again, I

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Speaker 1: mean not necessarily specifically with pandas, but with some species.

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Speaker 1: If you can say their their populations coming back in

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Speaker 1: the wild, then it also indicates that the their ecosystem

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Speaker 1: is getting better healthy again as well. So that's all

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Speaker 1: well and good. It's good that it it's made some money,

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Speaker 1: right sure, but there's also plenty of criticisms to using

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Speaker 1: charismatic mega fauna. Uh and let's take a break and

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about it right after this. So Chuck, yes,

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Speaker 1: what's what's the problem with using a cute panda or

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Speaker 1: an elephant or something like that to get money for conservation.

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Speaker 1: How could there be anything wrong with it? Well, that's there.

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Speaker 1: Another word for this is the Bambi effect, like when

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Speaker 1: you care only about the cute thing. Um. And they

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Speaker 1: interviewed for our own article, it's interesting that the Atlanta

419
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: Zoo u zoologists was like, this is kind of great

420
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: and it's working. And then they interviewed Christina Simmons of

421
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: the San Diego Zoo Global UH, and she was a

422
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: little more like, you know what, this is an eighties

423
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: thing and we have moved past that here in San Diego.

424
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: Ignore that panda on the brochure. We've moved past it. Yeah.

425
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: I thought that was funny. The article pointed out that

426
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: they had plenty of charismatic species on their website even

427
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: though they supposedly moved past it, So apparently in their

428
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: projects they stopped focusing on charismatic Mega font is what

429
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: she was saying, right, Yeah, she said that they m

430
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: what they're trying to do is focus on an environment

431
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: more than like. It's not like they don't focus on animals,

432
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: but they try to look at at it from an uh.

433
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: I guess from an ecosystem point of view? Is that right?

434
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: I think so? Or they're looking more at animals that

435
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: um have a bigger impact on their ecosystem, right than

436
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: than charismatic megafaunta Mike right, Yeah, and and um, I

437
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: don't think it was or maybe it was her. They

438
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: kind of put it in an interesting way that I

439
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: hadn't thought of. It sort of creates a class struggle,

440
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: a bit um between quote wealthy animal end quote and

441
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: a poor animal as far as their richness being determined

442
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: by their likability. Yeah, and I mean it's as simple

443
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: as that. And it's not just public awareness of you know,

444
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: these species being endangered, whereas there's plenty of other species

445
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: that aren't charismatic that are way more in trouble and

446
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: in danger of being extinct. Um, it's scientific money too,

447
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: Like scientists need funding to do their studies. And if

448
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: there's plenty of funding around to focus on pandas but

449
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: not say, those muscles that went extinct, well there's gonna

450
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: be a lot more scientific study directed towards pandas and

451
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: saving pandas than saving those muscles, even though those muscles

452
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: probably keep their aquatic ecosystem clean, whereas pandas just poop

453
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: everywhere and they don't do anything to clean up their ecosystem.

454
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: I wonder what the scientific ethics are. Maybe a researcher

455
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: can tell us about where funding goes, like if you know,

456
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: if they're like, well, let's divert some of that to

457
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: um this other species, whereas the individual who donate might

458
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: be like, no, just pandas. Well. That was actually brought

459
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: up in the in this larger article that survey of

460
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: like the seventy other articles about charismatic megafauna, and they

461
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: said that that could be an issue. Some donors want

462
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: to know that their money is going towards what they

463
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: donated it. And if you think you donated it to

464
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: save pandas, and these guys are being like, yeah, yeah,

465
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: we're helping pandas, but we're also helping these snakes. But

466
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: you hate snakes. You might be unhappy that your money's

467
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: helping snakes, you though the snakes really need the help. Yeah.

468
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: One thing I have noticed with donation sites is a

469
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: lot of times they'll have that and then let's say,

470
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: would you also like to donate five dollars to the

471
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: general fund um stuff, you know, so you can help

472
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: the snake. Yeah, And there's not one that says the

473
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: general fund and no, but no, snakes right now, there's

474
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: not an option you're doing. You're donating the snakes with

475
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: the general fund. You know, there's also the issue of

476
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: it being a totally unscientific idea. It's completely subjective. Like

477
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: even here in the West, people are like, well, lions

478
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: are beautiful and majestic, but if you talk to um

479
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: school kids in Tanzania, they'll say, actually, lions are quite

480
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: fearsome because we live near them, and um, I have

481
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: a friend whose uncle was killed by a lion. Right,

482
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: so you can't even agree on what what um what

483
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: animals have charisma? Even even you know, it seems like

484
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: a foregone conclusion to us, the people who are carrying

485
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: out these conservation efforts and who are donating the conservation

486
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: dollars aren't the ones who have to actually live with

487
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: these animals as well. Right, So, if you're an organization

488
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: who's getting conservation dollars from these people to save these

489
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: animals that the locals actually hate, you're gonna have a

490
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: problem here. So what are some of the solutions to

491
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: these to to what what can you do as a

492
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: conservationist if you're facing this this issue where you need

493
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: money but you also need to be realistic at the

494
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: feeling you have an answer and wait. Well, one of

495
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: the one of the great suggestions that I've run across

496
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 1: is um you can talk about these species that people like,

497
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: but just talk about them in in realistic terms and

498
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 1: don't say how cute they are and all that stuff. Yeah,

499
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: or don't make it sound like they're the most important

500
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: animal on the planet, right, like put it in its

501
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: relative context, right. Or this one is even better. Take

502
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: an actual keystone species from an ecosystem that's in real

503
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: danger of becoming instinct, and then put your marketing people

504
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: to work on creating charisma for that animal, because you

505
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: know what, they could do that in most cases, unless

506
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: it's a komodo dragon. No, it's actually a really great

507
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: example of of them doing that. Well. I was about

508
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: the reason I mentioned that because I was that was

509
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: one of my favorite animals at the Atlanta Zoo. Was.

510
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: I could sit around and watch that komodo dragon for days. Yeah,

511
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: he was so cool looking, but a lot of people

512
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: might not think so. So Like Charon Stone, apparently there

513
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: was a huge what Jaron Stone's ex husband was bitten

514
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: by a komodo dragon very famously? Was he hurt? Ye

515
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: did he die, No, that's not why he's an ex.

516
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 1: Did he lose a toe? Well, I should say he's

517
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: an ex because he got bitten by the komodo dragon,

518
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: but just because she was embarrassed by it, so she

519
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: divorced him. No, okay, she's like, oh my god, I

520
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: can't even go out in public now see you later.

521
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: You've mortified me. Yeah. I figured you would have known

522
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: about that. It was a very not funny for him,

523
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: funny for everybody everyone else. No, but apparently there was

524
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: a big local push to save komodo dragons. They were

525
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: not well liked, but they put some top marketing people

526
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: on it and gave the komodo dragon chrisma, like just

527
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: pointing to a panda bear and being like pretty cute. Huh.

528
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: That doesn't take any marketing skill. It takes real marketing

529
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: skill to take a hated and reviled animal that needs

530
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: human help and make it charming. You know who could

531
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: solve all of this, God Disney. Oh yeah, you know.

532
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: All you gotta do is make a movie about a

533
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: Komodo dragon is the hero. Sure, and and literally that

534
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: would change everything. Somebody needs to throw out Walt Disney. Yeah,

535
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: he's still frozen. I don't know if that's true or

536
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: an urban legend or not. We should get Holly from

537
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: my stuff you miss in history class in here. Well,

538
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: we did an episode on criegenics, and I'm sure we

539
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: covered it, but that was a long time ago. Holly,

540
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: for all I know, might have Walt Disney frozen in

541
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: her house. She might you know, being held captive. Uh

542
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: So should we talk a little bit about bio diversity.

543
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: I think we should and why that's important because that's

544
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: kind of what we're talking about here in a roundabout ways.

545
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: A healthy ecosystem depends on biodiversity. And that doesn't just

546
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: mean what's known as species diversity or species richness, which is,

547
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of different animals. That's what most

548
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: people think of when they think of biodiversity. It's a

549
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: lot more complex than that. Yeah, So there's, um, there's

550
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: species diversity, like you said, there's also a genetic diversity,

551
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: which is the combined number of genes that's available to

552
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: uh species worldwide. And the more genetic diversity of species

553
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: have them, the easier it can withstand um things like disease.

554
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, some individuals are gonna die, but overall the

555
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: species should be able to survive it because there's probably

556
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: a gene in there somewhere that can combat this disease

557
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: or is immune to this disease, and they'll develop an

558
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 1: immunity to it. The species will go on. So species

559
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: diversity is a very important type of biodiversity too. Yeah,

560
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: like bald eagle again, genetic diversity. Sorry, yeah, yeah, bald

561
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: eagle good example because they are spread out all over, Uh,

562
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: well not all over, but in those certain places in

563
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: North America give them good genetic diversity. Uh, Thus they

564
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: were able to come back. The cheetah um not so much.

565
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: Back in the day, there was only one species, I

566
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: think around ten thousand years ago. Yeah, I didn't see

567
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: what happened to the species or the cheated Did you

568
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: what all the other species? Yeah, I don't know. That's

569
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: pretty bizarre. Just one survived, Yeah, the uh sen Nick's jubats.

570
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: I think that's right. In Africa and um, that was

571
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: a problem because when you just have one species, you're

572
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: in breeding a lot and your genetic diversity goes way

573
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: down and all of a sudden, you uh, one thing

574
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: could come along and wipe you out. Exactly when one

575
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: disease or something um And then there's also ecosystem diversity,

576
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: which is the number of different types of ecosystems around

577
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 1: the world, and the more you have those, the better

578
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: off you are. It's kind of like bio diversity is

579
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: a really good example of not having all of your

580
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 1: eggs in one basket. Yeah, you want to diversify. It's

581
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: the same thing with stocks and bonds, that's right, you know. Uh,

582
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: And as humans, bio diversity is a big deal because

583
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: of medicine that we use that comes from plants. Let's say, uh,

584
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: what else, clothes that we wear from plants, and animal fibers,

585
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 1: what we eat. That's another big one too. Can't forget that. Yeah,

586
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: And the point is it's all linked, like you talked

587
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: about earlier. The wolf population will have a or the

588
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: honeybee population will have an effect on down the line

589
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: because it's all one big linked puzzle, and something like

590
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: colony collapse disorder can foul it up to the point

591
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: where just because the honeybee are the crop production as

592
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: a whole in the United States is in trouble right right,

593
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: So there's and it seems kind of remedial that to

594
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: go over it, but it's important to point out, like,

595
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: what's at stake here when you're talking about extinction? Right,

596
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: It's not like, oh, we don't have honey anymore, right now,

597
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 1: there's the entire ecosystems can fail, And when entire ecosystems fail,

598
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: the world gets a little less bio diverse. And when

599
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: that happens, it's a little more fragile, and it just

600
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: keeps getting set up more and more and more for

601
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: some sort of larger collapse that's more than just say

602
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: a honeybee collapse. UM and apparently the big one, the

603
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: big daddy as far as UM as reduction of biodiversity goes, Well,

604
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: there's two of them. One is invasive species. Yeah, I

605
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: didn't know we should do a show on We're gonna

606
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: do one on cuts at one point. I don't know

607
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: if that's two separate shows or not. I don't know,

608
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: but I did and realized that invasive species caused that

609
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,919
Speaker 1: much damage. Yeah, there's something like um half of all

610
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: of the extinction special extinctions since the sixteen hundreds they

611
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: attribute to invasive species, where it's just you know, you've

612
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: got a species that's introduced into a new um ecosystem,

613
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: doesn't have any predators, so it it preys on other

614
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: things and reproduces unchecked and just totally throws off the ecosystem. Right.

615
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 1: Half of extinction comes from invasive species, and then another third,

616
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: six percent apparently comes from deforestation, right yeah, I mean

617
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: the other two big ones are over hunting, um, like

618
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: we were talking about with like the rhino and elephants

619
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and back in our pigeons episode

620
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: literally calls the extinction of the passenger pigeon. Uh. And

621
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: then climate changes the fourth which um, sort of just

622
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: getting started on that one. So I would that's an

623
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: increasingly becoming a problem with animals force from their habitats.

624
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: But deforestation is the big daddy. Yeah, and apparently one

625
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: of the big issues with deforestation, although there has been

626
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: a lot of headway made with slowing deforestation. Um. But

627
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: the rainforest is particularly vulnerable because it covers about seven

628
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: percent of Earth's land mass, but it houses about half

629
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: of Earth's species. That's crazy, right, So there's that problem

630
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: with a lot of eggs in one basket. If you

631
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: mess with that basket, you're you're in big trouble. I

632
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: think that's how the saying goes, right. So um, one

633
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: of the problems with deforestation is that if you are

634
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: developing economy and you've got a lot of economic activity

635
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: that can be gained by cutting down the rainforest, it's

636
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: kind of tough de fault that that economy to say,

637
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: what are you doing? You know, we as humanity need that.

638
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 1: That's nature's pharmacy, right. Um. There's also apparently a lot

639
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: of issue with indigenous peoples in rainforests as well, that

640
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: a lot of them are like, well they're indigenous people,

641
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: they know what they're doing. Well, they're also like deforesting

642
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: the rainforest themselves as well. So there's a lot of

643
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: programs that have been put into place to reduce deforestation,

644
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: and like I said, they're having an effect. Apparently, within

645
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, deforestation has fallen like year

646
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: over year in Brazil, which is where a lot of

647
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: it was happening. So the idea of deforestation not happening

648
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: in UM Brazil are happening less. That's a big deal. Yeah,

649
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: And they have found a direct correlation between um the

650
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 1: local economy being less reliant on the rainforest and having

651
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: like a healthy economy doesn't that doesn't depend on the

652
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: rainforest and deforestation decreasing, so it's you know, it's not

653
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: rocket science, and thanks to Don Henley it's all getting

654
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: better and Al Gore and Tom Petty. All Don Henley

655
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: does is helped the rainforest and be a jerk and

656
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: sue people. Who does he sue dude? Done. Henley sues everybody,

657
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: sue everybody, shoes, sue. He sues Sharon Stone's husband. I

658
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: think so now he's sort of a notorious jerk as

659
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: far as like, oh you you know you used this

660
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: Eagle song when you weren't supposed to and taking you

661
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: to court and then I'll cut you. Man. He like

662
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: one of my favorite bands, and then I'll cut you.

663
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: That's not a peaceful, easy feeling at all. Um Okerville

664
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: River one of my favorite bands. They kind of reworked

665
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: a Don Henley song as a homage and a tribute

666
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: and it didn't even like I think they just put

667
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: it on the web. They weren't like trying to make

668
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: money off of it, and they're like, man, we love

669
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: this song. We kind of reworked it and like here

670
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: it is. And he was like, shut it down, get

671
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: it off the internet. I'm suing you, little indie band. Yeah,

672
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: And then will Chef there, uh, their lead singer and songwriter.

673
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: He was just sort of like, man, really thanks a lot. Yeah,

674
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,959
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have my Eagles tattooed. Grade it off, no more,

675
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: no more homages to you, sir. It was the end

676
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: of will Chef's innocence about Don Henley. Uh, I'm gonna

677
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: see Joe Walsh to More Night and Tom Petty he's

678
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: opening up, wow, which I'm pretty excited about. Usually openers

679
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: at those big shows or I don't know, they don't

680
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: do a good job pairing them sometimes. Yeah. Like I

681
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: saw Elton John once and he had these two cello

682
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: players yo yo maa yeah, and his and his brother. No.

683
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 1: It was I mean it was kind of neat. That's

684
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 1: the only cello player and they were I can't remember

685
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: their names, and I'm sure there are tons of people

686
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: that are fans of these guys because they play like

687
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: like A C. D C songs on the cello and

688
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: it's really sort of yah. I mean it was cool,

689
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: but I don't know, like I just wanted to. I

690
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: want to see Joe Walsh open up for everybody, so

691
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: um you me and I went and saw Cindy lawper

692
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and Dr John opened for Yeah,

693
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: that's not a good pairing. It well, so it was

694
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: an amazing show, both of them were, but um, it

695
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 1: was like the Doctor John show happened, and then everyone left,

696
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: everyone came in for Cindy Lauper. It was a very

697
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: weird pairing. I think Cindy Lauper's is like a Doctor

698
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: John fan and wanted to make sure he got some

699
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: money that year or something right. But it was like

700
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: two different shows, like an early show in a late

701
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: show as far as the audience was concerned. Yeah, I

702
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: saw Josh Grobin open up for Iron Maid, and I

703
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: thought that was strange too. Well, Bruce Dickinson is a

704
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: well known operatic singer. Oh that's true, so I can Yeah,

705
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: tattooed millionaire pilot man. Not what a great ending? Or

706
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 1: are we done? Did you have anything else? Nope? All right.

707
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about Iron Maiden bio diversity,

708
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: Josh Groban, yo yo, ma, all that jazz, type those

709
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: words in the search bar at how stuff works dot

710
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: com and press your luck. Since I said press your luck,

711
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: it's time for listener mail All that Jazz, and then

712
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: of which was jazz. Alright, Um, I wonder where that

713
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 1: term came from. Just I think it's from the Great

714
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: White Way, right. I mean there was a show called

715
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: All That Jazz, But I invent that, I think, So okay,

716
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: that's all it. This is from I'm gonna call this

717
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: from our old buddy, Sarah Law. Who's our oldest. Um.

718
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: I always say oldest like she's night long the longest lasting,

719
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: longest running band. Yeah, long standing listeners from Canada. Hey, guys, Josh,

720
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry. Can you still not spell Jerry? Right,

721
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: Sarah after all these years, I just spell it Gary

722
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:19,959
Speaker 1: with a G Gary j E r I everybody, Um,

723
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: I know you guys love animals, so I thought it'd

724
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: be great if you could share this, uh stuff you shnow.

725
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: Army story friend needed to give up his cat for

726
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: adoption because he's moving out of the United States due

727
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: to health issues of the cat. Shelters would not take her.

728
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: He was going to have to put her down, which

729
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: I can't believe that's the solution, Like I gotta move,

730
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: I'll just put you down. That aside. Um, I put

731
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 1: out a ninth hour call. I think it's eleventh hour

732
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: in the United States. Apparently in candidates a night hour.

733
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: Uh put out a night hour call to this stuffy

734
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: snow army and a nice person named Kevin Lyman asked

735
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: everyone he knew if they could take her. And I'm

736
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: happy to say that Evan's coworker cat. But the k

737
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: picked Ava up and Ava as a cat from the

738
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: vet appointment to save her life and then took her

739
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: to be put down. No, I saw a picture. This

740
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: cat was adorable. Uh, never underestimate the power of the stuff.

741
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: You should know, Army and I think she shared this

742
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: on Facebook and it, you know, it kind of happened that. Yeah,

743
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: that's great. I love the show. Thank you for enriching

744
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: our lives in so many ways. Your Canadian friend Sarah

745
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: O x O thinks a lot. Sarah though was a

746
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: great story. Yeah, it was appropriate for this. I told

747
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: Sarah that, oh yeah, do you think about that? Cats

748
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: are charismatic mini fauna. I told Sarah, we uh, an

749
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: all likelihood are going to be coming up to the

750
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: Great White Way, and I hope that's what it is

751
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: for some shows this year. We're gonna be hit in Canada.

752
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: I think so at least one. Yeah, we've been teasing

753
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: these shows, but we're kind of nailing it all down.

754
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: So listen up, all eight of you who still listen

755
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: this deep into the show. We might be coming to

756
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: a town near you. Yeah, and let everybody else know. Uh.

757
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with this, you

758
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.

759
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com slash stuff

760
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 1: you Should Know. You can send us email to stuff

761
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: Podcast at how stuff works dot com. Has always joined

762
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should

763
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: Know dot com. For more on this and thousands of

764
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com