1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Dear Alana. Today, we're bringing 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: you a bonus episode with a deeper discussion about Alana 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: in her journals. For an extended version of this conversation, 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: join tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com. Just a heads up, 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: the following discussion contains references to religious abuse. Listener discretion 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: is advised. We've been hearing a lot about Alana's spiritual 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: influences the ideas that both she and I received from 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: the church, but I'm curious about other perspectives, particularly the 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: psychological and developmental one. My guest today is uniquely equipped 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: to help us unpack some of these angles. Doctor Hillary 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: McBride is an author, researcher, and therapist in private practice, 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: whose clinical and academic work has been recognized by the 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: American and Canadian Psychological Associations, and whose research on human 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: sexuality was awarded the International Young Investigator Award in twenty seventeen, 15 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: the same year she published her first book titled Mothers, 16 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: Daughters and Body Image, Learning to Love Ourselves as we Are. 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: Doctor McBride hosts the CBC podcast Other People's Problems and 18 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: her latest book, The Wisdom of the Body, Finding Healing, 19 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: Wholeness and Connection through Embodied Living was published by HarperCollins 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one. She identifies as a Christian doctor. 21 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: Hillary McBride, thank you so much for joining us. I 22 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: know you've had a chance to listen to the early 23 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: season of Dear Alana, So I guess to start things off, 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: I'm really curious about your initial impression of what's been 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: striking to you about Alana Chen's story. 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: One of the things that comes to mind is the 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: kind of objectified mythic status that she had in the 28 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: community of being the saint. And in a way, I 29 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: was really drawn to Elana's saintthood as she was moving 30 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: through her community in a way that was so generative 31 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: and loving and really in a way seeing some of 32 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: the community members who were invisible. 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: Like the homeless people, as she was helping, I. 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: Kept wondering about who really knew her. I think that's 35 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: what's really interesting about this project, and when it's like, 36 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 2: what's so fascinating about getting access to her journals and 37 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: hearing hearing the things that she's processing through because it's 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: so unusual for us to have access to the inner 39 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: world of a person who is so profoundly performatively good. 40 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't we start with listening to some of 41 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: those journal entries read by a voice actress. I'd love 42 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on them. This first one is 43 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: from when Alana was a teenager and would be sneaking 44 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: out to go to mass every day, possibly to escape 45 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: a difficult home life with her parents fighting all the time. 46 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: Let's take a listen. 47 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 3: God, I want to know you more, honest. There's something 48 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 3: in me still not satisfied. Maybe I need to pray 49 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: more or trust that you're never bored with me. Mother 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: Teresa talks about girls who are convinced they are sure 51 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 3: that you love them and they're precious to you. They're 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 3: able to rest with you peacefully because they're convinced that 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: you're in love with them. I want to be in 54 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: love with you, but I have trouble hearing your voice. 55 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 3: I have trouble listening. I want to be so close 56 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: to you. It seems that you know everything about me, 57 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: yet I don't know much about you. 58 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: So I think as I hear that there's a number 59 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: of things that stir in me. I'm thinking about what's 60 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: happening developmentally, Like you mentioned in her home life, and 61 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: also at that age, like it is such a tumultuous 62 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: time to be a thirteen year old navigating the transition 63 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: as a body from child to adult, and the complexity 64 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: of that I think can feel very disorganizing for people. 65 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: So I'm imagining some things that feel kind of disorganizing 66 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: inside of her, but also in her context around her. 67 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: And then what happens when someone hands a very clear 68 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: cut worldview that creates a sense of clarity and perhaps 69 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: calm and a way of feeling like the things that 70 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: are confusing inside are not so confusing. It's so easy 71 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 2: for the mind of a young woman to feel like 72 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: they fall into that as a strategy to organize the 73 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: things that otherwise feel disorganized. So my mind immediately goes 74 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: to what was it offering her, And if it was 75 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 2: offering her something of a structured worldview, that might suggest 76 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: in a way that she was craving a sense of structure, 77 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: craving some way of organizing something that otherwise felt chaotic 78 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,239 Speaker 2: and confusing. And that's not an atypical thing, as I mentioned, 79 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: for for that stage of development. It's totally developmentally appropriate 80 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: for a young a young girl to say I want 81 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: to find a way of orienting myself in the world 82 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 2: and understanding that I have meaning and that I have 83 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: purpose and that I matter, Because that's a time in 84 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: life when those questions start to emerge, you know, am 85 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 2: I important? Do I belong? Where am I safe? What matters? 86 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: Am I good? Where do I find a sense of meaning? 87 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: And it seems like at that moment in her life, 88 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: when she might have been asking those questions, she was 89 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 2: offered it. She was offered it at the hands of 90 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: people who who I imagine meant well, but also it 91 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 2: began what was a path of destruction for her. And 92 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: so I'm just noticing, right. You know, it's easy, so 93 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: easy retrospectively to look at back at things like this 94 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: and kind of fine tune the analysis and go, here's 95 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: where the story is leading. But I think it's I 96 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: think if it's not so different than most stories of 97 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: peace people in faith communities that I know, there's beautiful 98 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 2: things and there's hard things. There's really healthy things, and 99 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: there's really unhealthy things. Because faith communities are made up 100 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 2: of people, and people are a mix of health and 101 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: unhealth and beauty and pain, and so it makes sense 102 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: that we would see that in Alanna, and we would 103 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: also see that in the kind of the emerging story 104 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: that we know is about to unfold, right, And then 105 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: kind of the last thing that I'm wanting to say 106 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: about this is that I think I'm seeing some of 107 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: the seeds of the perfectionism that she espoused in her 108 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: her internal evaluation of her faith. So it is so 109 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: normal for there to be flexibility in how a person 110 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: perceives the relationship and proximity with God. The idea that 111 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: there could be a day one day where a person 112 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: has great certainty about what they believe, and then the 113 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 2: next day when they have questions and doubts and fears 114 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: and longings that are answered. That the whole spectrum from 115 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: absolute faith to total doubt is wildly human. Right, This 116 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: is a very normal experience. And yet when she's comparing 117 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: her experience to the perfectionist ideal set out by this 118 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: commentary about Mother Teresa's girls, my thought is that she 119 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: doesn't have an understanding at that point that it's okay 120 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: to have doubt, it's okay to have change, it's okay 121 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: to have fluidity in the way she's relating to God, 122 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: to the divine and the interpretation of that fluidity that 123 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: does exist that is human is one of judgment and 124 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: perfectionism and shame. And I think what often happens is 125 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: if we have a pre existing narrative about perfectionism, it's 126 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: so easy in religious communities for the dysfunction to write 127 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: the coattails of our existing internal defense, our strategy of 128 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 2: earning our good enoughness through perfectionism. And also it's easy 129 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: for us to move into those communities and have that 130 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: presented to us, and for us to do something called introject, 131 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: for us to take that story on as if it 132 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: is capital t true about us, you know, the need 133 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: to be perfect as a way of being good and lovable. 134 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: And so, whether it comes from the religious community or 135 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: whether it comes from her existing narrative, at some point 136 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: these things meet in the middle, and I can imagine it. 137 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: It creates really fertile territory for her to not know 138 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: how to navigate the mature complexity of an evolving faith 139 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: that includes doubt and includes longing, it includes not knowing. 140 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: But at thirteen, she doesn't get that, and so it 141 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 2: sounds like some shame starts to take root. 142 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: I think this really connects with some of her journal 143 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: entries where Alana is meticulous documenting her sins. Let's have 144 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: a listen. 145 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 3: I am a failure, a moral failure, obsessed, addicted, selfish, starving, impure, disordered, 146 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: messed up, repeating, lustful thoughts, lonely, incomplete, empty, wasteful, useless, sensitive, prideful, 147 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: self seeking, praise seeking, desperate for love and affection, Unable 148 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 3: to receive true love, closed off to truth, can't make 149 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 3: eye contact with mom or anyone, always going to love, 150 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: fail sin, she goes on and on. 151 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: Earlier, you use the word compulsive, and so I'm curious 152 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: if this is an example of behavior or thoughts that 153 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: you might describe as compulsive. And then also, like, how 154 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: would you distinguish that from a healthy honesty you know 155 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: about like one's shortcomings or areas of growth. Help me 156 00:09:58,760 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: understand where the line is. 157 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: H Yeah, I think to your point about health when 158 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: it comes to recognizing who we are and being able 159 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 2: to see our own limitations or shortcomings. I want to 160 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: make the distinction between honesty and shame, or honesty and 161 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: a kind of judgmental criticism, because I think it is 162 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: actually healthy to be able to examine the patterns in 163 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: our life that keep us stuck the ways that we 164 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: are hurting and the ways that we hurt others, and 165 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: being able to reflect on those things and know what 166 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: to do about them, to be able to understand their function, 167 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: to have some flexibility with them, and maybe even to 168 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: accept them right that would be a measure of health. 169 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: But the compulsive list writing around the things that are 170 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: seen as sinful or problematic or make her defective or 171 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 2: broken in some way has a quality of dysfunction to 172 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: it that signals to me that there's more at play here, 173 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 2: that this is the voice of shame, and shame. Shame 174 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: also has a purpose. It does something very functional internally 175 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: for us to distance us from what we believe is unacceptable. 176 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 2: And in trying to distance us from what we believe 177 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 2: is unacceptable, ideally, what I think when we see the 178 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: positive nature of shame, what it's trying to do is 179 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: protect us from being associated to the things that we 180 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: believe will make us unlovable. And so if shame can 181 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: get in there and it can create this space between 182 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: who we believe ourselves to be and the things that 183 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: are happening inside of us, perhaps then those things can 184 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: go away. And if those things can go away, then 185 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: we can remain to be seen as good and lovable 186 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: and valuable in our communities against so much of shame. 187 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: As with other emotions and with other processes, here is 188 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: related to what we are told is good and acceptable. 189 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: So the difference with health is the ability to actually 190 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: be in relationship with those things. So, for example, there 191 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: is such things as compulsive masturbation, and instead of seeing 192 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: the masturbation as a sin and something that needs to 193 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: go away something that needs to be the source of shame, 194 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: health is the ability to say, okay, let me look 195 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: at this behavior and let me see what it's doing, 196 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: and let me be in relationship with it in a 197 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: way that helps me be compassionate. Right, what is the 198 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: purpose that this compulsive masturbation is serving? Is it? Is 199 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: it allowing me to soothe pain that is otherwise unsothable. 200 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 2: Well if that's the case, then wow, I can really 201 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: appreciate what it's doing, and maybe I can create some 202 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: flexibility psychologically and behaviorally to develop some other strategies so 203 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: that the masturbation isn't so compulsive and it feels more 204 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: in line with something that's healthy and fruitful and expressive 205 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: and create and authentic. So the ability not to cut 206 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: something off, but to actually understand it and examine it, 207 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: would determine if it's if it's health. And what I 208 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: hear in the list that she's writing is that this 209 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 2: is not an exploration of the internal system, but rather 210 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: that this is a kind of like shaming of the self, 211 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: shaming of these behaviors. This is a list of proof 212 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: of all the ways that she's bad and all the 213 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 2: things that prove to her that's she's not good enough 214 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: and needs needs help and saving. And yet so many 215 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: of those things I would look at and go, I'm 216 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 2: pretty sure everyone I know right has most of those qualities. 217 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: Were like, there's some things on there that are actually 218 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 2: just human. But again, the rigidity, the kind of black 219 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: and white narrative, the perfectionism, the idealization of what it 220 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 2: means to be a good Catholic, to me, signals that 221 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: these things are not allowed to be welcomed into her existence. 222 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: Their proof somehow that she's bad, and consequently they need 223 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: to be they need to be fixed and solved, and 224 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: they need to be made to go away. 225 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: So when Alana came out to her priest, according to Alana, 226 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: he told her not to tell her parents. We may 227 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: never know the exact reasons why, but I think this 228 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: kind of pastoral guidance in conservative spaces is actually very common. 229 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: There's usually an attempt to diminish this revelation in order 230 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: to perhaps dissuade them from dissuade the young person from 231 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: further exploration, or in Alana's case, there might have been 232 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: the sense that her family wasn't conservative enough, so you know, 233 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: don't tell them, or they might encourage you. I'm curious 234 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: what you think about that kind of recommendation and approach. 235 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: Well, asking a parishioner not to tell their family something 236 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 2: is more than a whi of spiritual abuse as far 237 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: as I'm concerned, and falls in line with some of 238 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: the things that would make me start wondering around about 239 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: cult behavior. 240 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 3: Right. 241 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: The separation of a person from their family and creating 242 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: secrecy in a person's relationship with the people who are 243 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: closest to them is really problematic. 244 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: Right. 245 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: There is abuse of elements there, and Alana, among so 246 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: many other people put profound amounts of trust in their 247 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: spiritual leaders, and so we'll do what they tell them to. 248 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: And yet I at this point become very concerned about 249 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: what other manipulation is happening. What other spiritual abuse is 250 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: happening or is going to happen when a person is 251 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: asked to cut something off from their family in that 252 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: particular way. 253 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: How do you define spiritual abuse? 254 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, what we know is that abuse in spiritual 255 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: context is a person taking vantage of a power dynamic 256 00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: to speak as a religious leader on behalf of who 257 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: God is and representing the authority of God through what 258 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: is usually a manipulative lens. So a person taking advantage 259 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: of their personal agenda and writing into a story of 260 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: another person, particularly a person who is less social power 261 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: than them, an idea about what makes them good, about 262 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: what the right way to be is, about who God is, 263 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: and ultimately usually something for that person's personal gain. 264 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: And that personal gain doesn't have to be attention or 265 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: power or money, right, it could be an internal reward 266 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: like feeling of being good or right or doing God's 267 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: work right. 268 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely that there can be a tremendous psychological and 269 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: perceived spiritual payoff for doing the things that you think 270 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: you're told to do or by being a leader, by 271 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: being a powerful leader and feeling like that allows for 272 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: you to experience proximity to God. Somehow, having more power 273 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 2: and spiritual context is associated with leading more people to God, 274 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 2: and consequently that feels good for you at night. You know, 275 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: when you sleep at night, it feels good to feel 276 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 2: like you've done the thing that proves that you're going 277 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: to be okay on the other side of this. Right, 278 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: But it's right, really, I mean, if I could back 279 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: it up and speak just more generally, it's like it's 280 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: any power or control that someone in a position of 281 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 2: religious or spiritual leadership uses over another person that implicates 282 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: their face system, their belief their behaviors, the story about 283 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 2: being human. And unfortunately, I think it's a lot more 284 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: common than we'd like to admit. 285 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it also sounds like this dynamic is 286 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: not unique to religion. 287 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, absolutely, I think that these dynamics exist wherever 288 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: people exist. 289 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: That the. 290 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: Need or the pleasure to have power and control over 291 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: another vulnerable person, over a person who has less social power, 292 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: and the perceived gain from that is something that happens 293 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: in homes across the world. It's something that happens in 294 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: school systems, it happens in job environments, it happens in 295 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: the fitness community. I mean, there are so many places 296 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: where these kind of dynamics exist because because they're not 297 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: actually just about the religion, they're about people and people's 298 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 2: way of accessing safety and power and control and likely 299 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: trying to navigate their own sense of powerlessness and lack 300 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 2: of control on their life. But I think that religion 301 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: adds the extra special sauce on top of those human 302 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 2: dynamics being validated and endorsed allegedly by God or the 303 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: church and being seen somehow as superior because they're bringing 304 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: a person or people in proximity to the ultimate, to 305 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 2: what is what is capital g good so to speak. 306 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, the stakes are so much higher when you bring 307 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: God into it. 308 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's I mean that we can talk at 309 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: length about the nature of spiritual trauma in terms of feeling, 310 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: like the impact of abuse when it transcends space and 311 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: time to include the afterlife, to include perpetuity, does profound 312 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: psychological damage to a person because it instills in them 313 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: a fear that not only when my perpetrator is gone 314 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: will I not be safe, not only when I'm out 315 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: of this situation, not only when this behavior is gone, 316 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 2: but forever for the rest of time. There will be suffering, 317 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: a loneness, isolation, and torture. There is something so awful 318 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: and so horrific about communicating to a developing nervous system 319 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: or to a person that you're suffering will never end. 320 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: You couldn't even die and get away from suffering, Oh 321 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 2: my God, because it could still be there on the 322 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: other side. What I think that does is it creates 323 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: very little opportunity for a person to have flexibility health. 324 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: It's essentially creating hell right here and right now in 325 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: a person's nervous system as they anticipate the suffering that 326 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: they think will come later. The body doesn't understand the 327 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: difference between eternal torment and right now. If we think 328 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: that's where we're heading, right and I think that when 329 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 2: we look at our faith traditions, it is so important, 330 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: it is so important that we examine what they have 331 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: done to us that has been trying amatizing what they 332 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 2: have done that has fragmented us from ourselves. But in 333 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 2: the same way that I said it earlier in the interview, 334 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: I say it now. It is actually when we look 335 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: at those things and we understand their function that we 336 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: can begin to heal them. Because I ultimately believe our 337 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: faith communities, our spiritual traditions have so much good in them. 338 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: We can't really lean into how good they are though, 339 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 2: when we're not also willing to look at the damage 340 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: that they do. Yeah, because we are wired for belonging, 341 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 2: because we are wired to understand how we fit into 342 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: a social context. The people around us have a profound 343 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 2: ability to influence what we know about who we are, 344 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 2: what is good, what is safe, what is bad, what 345 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: allows us to be in, what causes us to be out? 346 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 2: And the people who are around us have the ability, 347 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: especially those people who've been given social power, the faith leaders, 348 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 2: the political leaders, the parents who speak into our lives. 349 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: They have the capacity to do profound harm. But what's 350 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: so important to note is that healing is written into 351 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: our bodies. The capacity to adapt, the capacity to get away, 352 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 2: the capacity to find new people who tell us really good, 353 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: healthy stories about who we are will never be completely 354 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: suppressed by the damage done by the people who hurt us. 355 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: There is always the opportunity to heal. There's always the 356 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: opportunity to get away from contexts that don't reflect the 357 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 2: goodness of who we really are. And because social connection 358 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: is so important for our sense of who we are 359 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: when we find people who hold up a mirror and 360 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: show us that we are really deeply loved, that we 361 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: are good, That there is the possibility for helpe our 362 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 2: nervous system, our brains, our self. Stories will always be 363 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: able to take that in. Maybe not at first, maybe 364 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:19,239 Speaker 2: not with ease, but it is always a possibility. 365 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: Doctor Hillary McBride, thank you for joining me. I learned 366 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: so much. 367 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the invitation to share in 368 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 2: this really, really important project. 369 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: You can learn more about doctor Hillary McBride and her writing, speaking, 370 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: and private practice on hillarylmcbride dot com. Thanks for joining 371 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: us for this bonus episode of Dear Alana. To hear 372 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: more of my conversation with doctor McBride, subscribe to tenderfoot 373 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: Plus at tenderfootplus dot com. I'm Simon Kentfang.