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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua Tapulski,

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Speaker 1: and we have got a doozy a humdinger of a show. Guy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm using these words. They're not

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Speaker 1: good words. They're like words from nineteen fifty six. Very

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Speaker 1: strange that I would go there. Anyhow, we have a

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Speaker 1: great show today. I'm not even going to bother with

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Speaker 1: a long drawn out, speculative, self referential bullshit intro. I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to get into it. The man behind Garbage

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Speaker 1: Days on the show today. His name is Ryan Brodrick.

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Speaker 1: He's a genius writer. He's a scholar of the Internet,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk to him about what the

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Speaker 1: fuck is going on online. Let's just get into it.

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Speaker 1: First off, thank you for coming on the show. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me. I'm excited to be here. I

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Speaker 1: want to say I love your newsletter, Garbage Day. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's probably the newsletter that I most read. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's probably the newsletter that I read most often,

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Speaker 1: top to bottom. Okay, I'm just I'm gonna hold it

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Speaker 1: in place. I like, I feel good, So yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's probably also my most my most read newsletter although

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Speaker 1: I have to read some for work. Obviously, I have

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Speaker 1: to have to read some every day, so yours has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with my work, and I pay for it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a member of the juven named for the

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Speaker 1: garbage day community. They call themselves bin heads, but I

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Speaker 1: do not. I think a good day for them would

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Speaker 1: be dumpster divers. I think they missed an opportunity. That's nice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because that been discussed all should I bring it up

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Speaker 1: in the discord? You know, we've we've tried to have

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Speaker 1: the conversation about like what the stand army is called,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like that's just waiting in a territory

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Speaker 1: that like I'm not prepared for yet. You know, that's right,

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Speaker 1: that's down the road conversation. That's fair enough. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's fair enough. But garbage day, how would you describe

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Speaker 1: it to a LED person if I wasn't me, You

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Speaker 1: just met me at a party, or I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe we were waiting for the subway together and we

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Speaker 1: struck up a conversation and I go, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: I say, I'm a free speech warrior on substack dot com.

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Speaker 1: I'm part of the intellectual dark Enlightenment. I'm a reactionary centerist.

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Speaker 1: Substack is the free speech wing of the free speech Party.

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Speaker 1: That's right. My pronouns are sub and stack, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I write a newsletter about web culture, and the whole

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Speaker 1: point of Garbage Day is sort of just an attempt.

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Speaker 1: I don't say I succeed every time, but it's an

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Speaker 1: attempt at sort of remembering why I use the Internet

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Speaker 1: and why I've used the Internet for years, and why

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Speaker 1: my personality is built around things I've seen on the internet, right,

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Speaker 1: and try to like talk about the Internet in a

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Speaker 1: language that doesn't feel overly serious but also like doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel super pointless either, right, right, and in the same

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Speaker 1: way that like, you know, probably most people these days

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Speaker 1: have a group chat where they're sending stuff back and

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Speaker 1: forth with each other, and that's sort of the feeling

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Speaker 1: I try to capture, or attempt to capture. But you know,

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Speaker 1: some days they're easier than others for that, Right. But

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Speaker 1: your newsletter is I mean, it's more than just a

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Speaker 1: group chat in the sense that first off, it's pretty

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Speaker 1: one directional in the sense I mean, I know, you

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Speaker 1: do put things in there that people find that they

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Speaker 1: point out to you, but it's like you're kind of like,

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Speaker 1: here's my thoughts on things, right, I mean, it's from

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Speaker 1: Ryan's mind, is how I might describe it. Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was sort of it's sort of an editorial experiment actually,

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Speaker 1: with the idea of like, okay, stuff on the Internet

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Speaker 1: feels increasingly like it doesn't come from people, or it

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Speaker 1: comes from people who are trying to become brands. And

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Speaker 1: so when I was sort of like developing what garbage

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Speaker 1: Day is currently and kind of working through it, you know,

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Speaker 1: over the weeks and months, I was like, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I should just make it as me as humanly possible

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Speaker 1: one because it's easier and to like, it's not going

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Speaker 1: to be like a thing that you click on on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not. It's not it's not that feeling.

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Speaker 1: And my hope was that people on the internet want

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Speaker 1: more of that stuff. And so far, so good. Right,

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Speaker 1: So the garbage Day brand is extended now into I

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Speaker 1: noticed I didn't realize you were doing this, but you

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Speaker 1: now make YouTube videos as well. Yeah, well, like my

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Speaker 1: hero mister Beast, I want to be mister Beast, mister

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Speaker 1: best who you who you emulate and look up to

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Speaker 1: as a mentor and a hero, right, I think what's

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Speaker 1: so amazing about garbage day not to just this whole

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Speaker 1: podcast will not just be about how much I love

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Speaker 1: garbage ka. I got to say, I am profoundly uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: and I'm doing my best with this. But I am

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Speaker 1: a guy from Massachusetts and you're giving me compliments and

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Speaker 1: I'm becoming increasingly awesome that I want. I'm actually I

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Speaker 1: want to make you as uncomfortable as possible. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You're doing a great job. Good good and from Massachuset

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Speaker 1: sits I guess I didn't know that, And now that

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Speaker 1: I've heard that, it's going to color my opinion of you.

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Speaker 1: But I'm gonna try to move beyond it. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of like coverage of the Internet and internet

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Speaker 1: culture or web culture as you referred to it, or technology,

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Speaker 1: tends to veer into very serious like these bad robber

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Speaker 1: barons are destroying the planet or whatever, which, like I

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Speaker 1: think you do cover by the way, right, but you

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Speaker 1: do in a way that seems lighthearted, like a lighthearted

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Speaker 1: romp through the destruction of humanity. Yeah, I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: just a guy, you know, Like, no matter what I

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Speaker 1: say to like a billionaire doesn't really matter, and so

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's part of it. But then also, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the thing that you're touching on, I've seen it referred

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Speaker 1: to as like the dystopia beat or like you know,

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Speaker 1: people who are talking about like sort of like the

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Speaker 1: Internet causing brain worms, right, And I think that that

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Speaker 1: stuff is true, and we are, you know, living at

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Speaker 1: the end of history, like the people who are covering

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Speaker 1: the right wing. I'm sure sure when I say that

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Speaker 1: there are people who are like my Internet beat is

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Speaker 1: like the darkest recesses of the worse hatred. Sure, and

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Speaker 1: those like cycles, you're not exactly doing that, well, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think a lot of people who do

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Speaker 1: that are really good, and I think that skill set

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Speaker 1: has like increasingly evolved into just being like like a

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Speaker 1: totally different job. Like you know, you're no longer a

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Speaker 1: tech reporter in my opinion, You're like you're you're an

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Speaker 1: extremism reporter, and you you cover it through the lens

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Speaker 1: of technology perhaps, but like my interests sort of lie

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Speaker 1: in the opposite direction, one because I'm not really good

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Speaker 1: at it in two, like it's really punishing, and I

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Speaker 1: think also like one of the funniest like kind of

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Speaker 1: equalizers about the Internet is that, like, even the right

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Speaker 1: wing goons are kind of experiencing the same network effects

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Speaker 1: that we are. And so I do think that sort

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Speaker 1: of like macro view can cover a lot of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I think to be honest about that macro view,

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Speaker 1: you do have to kind of accept that, like, at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, most stuff on the Internet

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Speaker 1: is inherently stupid. Even the fraud games that are being

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Speaker 1: used by neo nazis right, So right, I mean, actually, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure you phrase the right wing goons

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Speaker 1: are experiencing the same network effects as us, can you

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Speaker 1: can you expect and that a little bit? What do

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Speaker 1: you what do you mean when you say that? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think the five seven years ago we

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Speaker 1: would probably say that, like the Internet is like radicalousing

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Speaker 1: you with rabbit holes. And I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: as time has gone on and we've sort of better

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Speaker 1: understood that, I think what's really happening is that we're

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Speaker 1: all part of an ecosystem that's like somewhat connected and

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Speaker 1: reacting to each other. And you know, we're all part

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Speaker 1: of our own little corner, but our corners are not

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Speaker 1: existing in a vacuum and so you know, most often

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Speaker 1: if you say, like okay, like why is this pocket

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Speaker 1: of horrible people doing this horrible thing? Yeah, there are

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Speaker 1: like ideological or interpersonal reasons. But then also the stuff

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Speaker 1: that I'm usually more interested in is like the larger

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Speaker 1: system level thing. So for instance, a really good example

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Speaker 1: would be like, okay, so like a section of Fortune

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Speaker 1: gets shut down, they move to Reddit. Okay, So what

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Speaker 1: happens when those people move to Reddit? Like what do

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Speaker 1: they cause on Reddit? Or do those people then move

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Speaker 1: over to Twitter and buy Twitter blue and start like

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Speaker 1: appearing in Elon Musk's mentions? Then what does that do

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Speaker 1: to the wider community on Twitter? And I find my

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Speaker 1: brain works better when I approach it that way rather

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Speaker 1: than sort of like take everything super seriously, because I

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Speaker 1: just think it's sort of like drunk people in a

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Speaker 1: concert sort of swearing back and forth, like you can't

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Speaker 1: really stop it from one side to the other. And

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Speaker 1: so I like to think of the Internet as this

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Speaker 1: sort of large arena that's like always moving back and forth. Right,

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Speaker 1: I think it helps right now pretty much always at

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Speaker 1: the whim of these like Elon Musk characters. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have a video about this Silicon Silicon Valley's midlife

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Speaker 1: crisis is destroying the Internet, which is a very subtle

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Speaker 1: non YouTube title for the video. I will say just

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Speaker 1: very you know, not reactionary or anything not. I was

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Speaker 1: going to do Rise and Fall of the Internet, the

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Speaker 1: Rise in full, you know, like they love that's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Love that that's pretty good. It needs to be saying

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Speaker 1: where like why the Internet will never work ever? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or they did this and then just a picture of

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Speaker 1: you looking at the Internet like with surprise, Yeah, doing

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Speaker 1: that they did. They did what was just like you

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Speaker 1: looking at the web browser exactly the Internet Explorer log. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But it does seem to be like it's your point

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Speaker 1: about the right wing people and normal people and whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's like we're all kind of I don't know. It

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Speaker 1: feels like we're on a ship, a ship together, a

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Speaker 1: horrible ship that somebody else's piloting. It does it feels

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Speaker 1: like we're entering this like very weird new era of

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Speaker 1: how we use the Internet that feels not defined yet,

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Speaker 1: which is exciting to me because we don't really know

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Speaker 1: where we're going. But it does feel like the sort

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Speaker 1: of like central players, the companies, the people that like

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Speaker 1: built the current status quo have lost interest with it,

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Speaker 1: and right, I thought it'd be fun to call it

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Speaker 1: a midlife crisis. Like I sort of think that, like

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Speaker 1: the obsession with NFTs is to me no different than

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Speaker 1: like the obsession with like, you know, buying a boat

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Speaker 1: or a convertible or getting a new wife or something.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of these guys are kind of in

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Speaker 1: that demographic that look like the kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they are midlife like like Mark Zuckerberg is,

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Speaker 1: how old is he? I mean he's fifties, right, No, Zuckerberg,

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Speaker 1: it's like thirty five or something. If you told me

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg was fifty five or fourteen, I would believe you.

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Speaker 1: He's thirty eight. Okay, that's actually older than I thought,

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Speaker 1: but he's very young. Thirty eight wow, Okay, like Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk is probably fifty two. Maybe. Yeah, I want to

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Speaker 1: say that's just throwing that out there, but yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is like midlife crisis zone, right, And like it does

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Speaker 1: feel like people ran out of ideas sort of like

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Speaker 1: with the Internet. I mean, like like Mark Zuckerberg only

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Speaker 1: had one basic idea about the Internet and then like

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Speaker 1: as an example, and you actually you wrote about this.

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Speaker 1: There's a video what is it called folding ideas? This

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Speaker 1: like you tube bird that does? Who did this video

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Speaker 1: about the Metaverse and what a ridiculous failure the Metaverse

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Speaker 1: is and how all of it's you know, biggest players

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Speaker 1: are just complete jokes and don't really have any any

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Speaker 1: plan or any idea of what they're trying to build.

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Speaker 1: But then you did this video about this some midlife crisis,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like the things are connected where it's

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Speaker 1: like like Mark Zuckerberg didn't have another great idea after Facebook.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't like I mean, I guess buying Instagram could

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Speaker 1: be seen as in buying Watsapp could be seen as

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Speaker 1: like good ideas, like let's acquire things that look like

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Speaker 1: competition to us and then you know, turn them into

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Speaker 1: our part of our product. But like Twitter is a

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Speaker 1: great example, like Elon Musk bought it with a lot

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Speaker 1: of big talk about how he was gonna do exciting

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Speaker 1: things with it, and it's just been like an embarrassing

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Speaker 1: shit show, like the Metaverse was an embarrassing shit show,

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Speaker 1: Like it's not these aren't good, fully formed ideas, Like

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Speaker 1: have any of these, you know, titans of industry who

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Speaker 1: run huge parts of like the technology sphere come up

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Speaker 1: with anything that isn't a bad idea in the last

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Speaker 1: like ten years. I mean, I think doge coin is great.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a great investment, and we should all

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Speaker 1: that's not you buying it, that's not no. I to

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Speaker 1: your point, though, I think I think there are good

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Speaker 1: ideas having on the Internet. I think that the these

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Speaker 1: sort of like centralization of power and influence at the

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Speaker 1: topics levels has meant that like the good ideas and

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Speaker 1: the good cultural stuff that's being built still on the

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Speaker 1: Internet isn't reaching those places, and when it does reach

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Speaker 1: those places, it no longer resembles itself. You know, Like

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Speaker 1: you can spend an afternoon digging around Twitch or YouTube

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Speaker 1: or discord or Twitter still and you're you're gonna find

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Speaker 1: the cool stuff, and you're gonna find cool communities and

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Speaker 1: cool people making stuff. And that hasn't gone away. It's

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Speaker 1: just that like the barrier between that and the most

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Speaker 1: point zero one percent who are in charge of how

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Speaker 1: we use the Internet is just so vast. Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: is a fantastic example, I think because he thinks that

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Speaker 1: he does understand this stuff. He like he thinks he's

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Speaker 1: like a late epic, you know, Memur, and he has

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Speaker 1: no idea. And what's even crazier is that he has

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Speaker 1: such a bad idea of how the average person uses

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Speaker 1: the Internet, that he created a system where you can

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Speaker 1: pay to get better placement, and his replies to tell

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Speaker 1: him right, because they can't process the idea of socializing

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Speaker 1: or creation without financial gain or financial exchange. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's actually very sad, right, but in a really funny

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Speaker 1: way to me, right, No, I mean, it's definitely funny,

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Speaker 1: but it's also there's a certain dystopian feel to everything

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Speaker 1: on the Internet right now. Like maybe I'm crazy for

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Speaker 1: saying this, but it feels like we're at the end

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Speaker 1: of a long process that's like started with this huge

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Speaker 1: explosion of social media and all this expression and you know,

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Speaker 1: all these like exciting moments where you like, you're like,

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Speaker 1: this is the future, and now it's getting whittled down

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Speaker 1: into this very kind of dark, unfun, boring place to be.

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Speaker 1: Like what I wondered, I mean, as a student of

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Speaker 1: the Internet and perhaps a teacher in some ways, does

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Speaker 1: it seem like there's a fundamental like change happening online?

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Speaker 1: Like again, maybe I'm old, right, I mean, maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: hitting my Mark Zuckerberg midlife phase. But does it feel

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Speaker 1: like the fabric of the Internet is changing in some

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Speaker 1: in some ways? Or is there a generation gap here?

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Speaker 1: Is there? Like I mean, and I don't know, Maybe

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Speaker 1: you can't answer that, but I feel like you look

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Speaker 1: at this stuff enough to have some idea, So I

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Speaker 1: do think you always have to acknowledge like there probably

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Speaker 1: is some kind of generational gap, and like you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thirty three, Yeah, I'm thirty three eight right now,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, the Internet is different than it was when

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Speaker 1: I was twenty three, and it's different than it was

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Speaker 1: when I was thirteen. I will say that the biggest

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Speaker 1: difference to me is the difference between the way it

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Speaker 1: felt at twenty three and thirty three, which is that

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Speaker 1: the machinery of the Internet feels like it no longer

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Speaker 1: is serving its function or like succeeding at its goal.

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Speaker 1: Like I have a harder time understanding what's going on

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Speaker 1: on a daily basis, even though I'm spending more time

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Speaker 1: than ever using the Internet, And that to me makes

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Speaker 1: me think that like the way that it functions is breaking, right,

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Speaker 1: and that's not just even Twitter. That's just like you

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Speaker 1: open up any random app on your phone, you're probably

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Speaker 1: gonna have a less of a coherent idea of what's

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Speaker 1: happening than you did using maybe that same app ten

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Speaker 1: years ago. And I think that is telling, right? Are

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Speaker 1: you saying like Instagram Instagram is a good one. Instagram

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Speaker 1: is a good one? Like you mean that you open

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Speaker 1: up Instagram and you're presented with like this non chronological

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Speaker 1: feed of random people who you're not following. Instagram is

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Speaker 1: a really funny one because I would I would say,

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Speaker 1: you know, what do you open it for? Now? What

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Speaker 1: is even the central purpose of that app? Because I

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Speaker 1: know that ten years ago I would open it essentially

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Speaker 1: to share photos of parties. I was at check out

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Speaker 1: what was happening with friends of mine who were not

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Speaker 1: my parents on Facebook? Right, and this was like twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 1: let's say, but that was already happening, Yeah, and maybe

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Speaker 1: check out like some cool restaurants or something. I opened

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Speaker 1: Instagram now, and I'm not even sure from a ux standpoint,

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Speaker 1: like what I'm supposed to do? You know, I suspect

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Speaker 1: the answer is different for everybody, which is even crazier.

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Speaker 1: But Instagram, I look at I think I remember, there's

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Speaker 1: something I can look at that feels less stressful than

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Speaker 1: the other social networks I see, like usually towards the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, if I'm in bed and I'm

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Speaker 1: like catching up because a lot of times, like for instance,

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Speaker 1: I was actually gonna say, I haven't looked at the Internet,

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Speaker 1: I haven't looked at Twitter, I haven't looked at a

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Speaker 1: ton of stuff today, and so I have no idea

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Speaker 1: right now what's going on because I've been kind of

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Speaker 1: heads down working. But yeah, I'll look at Instagram kind

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Speaker 1: of like, oh, I know there's something here that will

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Speaker 1: be just basically less stressful, and like, yeah, but to

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Speaker 1: your point, I'm definitely confronted with a ton of content

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Speaker 1: that I did not sign up for. Although it definitely

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Speaker 1: seems to be like if you watch one dog video

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Speaker 1: on a like an Instagram like real that is suggested

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Speaker 1: to you, the algorithm is so bad, you know, like

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Speaker 1: we're TikTok's algorithms seems so sharp that like it'll pick

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Speaker 1: up on the most minute things that you seem interested

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Speaker 1: in and it'll just give you more of that. Like however, weird,

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Speaker 1: whatever point you jump out, somehow it knows like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is why you started watching, this is why you

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Speaker 1: finished watching. I'm gonna give you something that fits right

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Speaker 1: in there. Instagram is like, we don't know for sure,

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Speaker 1: but like it has a dog at it, and so

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Speaker 1: maybe you like dogs. Like yeah, It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: when you're shopping on Amazon and you buy like a ladder. Right,

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Speaker 1: you buy like a ladder, You're like, I need an

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Speaker 1: eight foot ladder to change my light bulbs or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and then like you go back on Amazon, they're like,

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Speaker 1: check out more ladders and it's like, no, look, you

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Speaker 1: don't understand. I bought the ladder. I'm good. I got

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Speaker 1: the ladder. I'm good, Like I don't need another ladder. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you would think Amazon at this point would be like,

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Speaker 1: do you need some like non slip shoes or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Like they don't even do that. They're like, just here's

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Speaker 1: a different ladder. That's kind of how I feel like

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Speaker 1: Instagram's algorithm is now where it's like, oh, you like dogs, Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's dogs, here's dog adjacent categories like cats, there's some hamsters.

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Speaker 1: Some people who like brush their hamsters whiskers with a toothbrush.

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Speaker 1: We all love those videos. I think we've all watched

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Speaker 1: those videos, have we? Maybe we have it brushing a

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Speaker 1: hamster with a toothbrush. I haven't seen it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like you brush like the squirrels whiskers with like a

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Speaker 1: toothbrush and they get really relaxed. Oh yeah, I've okay,

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Speaker 1: I've seen this. Yes, I've seen that. They close their

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Speaker 1: eyes and they're like just like luxuriated and feeling I

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Speaker 1: mean sounds good. Yeah, I mean you have a what

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Speaker 1: do you have like a little beard there or something?

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Speaker 1: What would you describe that as a beard and a mustache? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now I mat just somebody took a nice clean, new

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Speaker 1: truth rush and started putting it through you mustache, right,

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Speaker 1: feel good? Right? Yeah, You're just like that little squirrel,

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Speaker 1: which is why we want to We want to watch

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Speaker 1: let's see what he does, you know, we want to

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Speaker 1: know what it's like. Yeah, to your point, yes, the

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Speaker 1: landscape is more confusing, But then again, I'm also old.

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Speaker 1: I'm old as shit. I'm an old school dude, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like I I remember the Internet when there were no

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Speaker 1: images on it, so I can't really I'm having a

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Speaker 1: different experience than you are. You know, Yeah, you're a

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Speaker 1: young man, you have your whole life ahead of you.

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Speaker 1: How old did you say? You are? Thirty three? So

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Speaker 1: it's funny you bring that up, though, because like when

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Speaker 1: I think about sort of my happiest time using the internet,

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Speaker 1: and I assume, like most people when they look back

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Speaker 1: with rosy tinted glasses, it's always kind of like the

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Speaker 1: same period of time. But for me, it was sort

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Speaker 1: of like end of college, early twenties loving the internet.

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Speaker 1: Stuffs great, and then you know it's just to feel

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Speaker 1: like less and less exciting. But when I do think

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Speaker 1: about that time period, it does remind me a lot

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Speaker 1: of right now where I was using so many apps.

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Speaker 1: I was on so many platforms. I was just I

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Speaker 1: was cruising around you group me, yeah, I was on

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Speaker 1: four Square. I still have all these fucking apps in

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Speaker 1: my phone, like group Me, which I think was like

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00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 1: bought by Microsoft at some point or something. It was

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Speaker 1: like a social app for like group Chat, kind of

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Speaker 1: a sort of a good idea, yeah, a little ahead

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Speaker 1: of its time. I still on my phone. I might

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Speaker 1: have deleted it recently. I'm like, what am I doing

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Speaker 1: with this? Like I don't even part of me thinks

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Speaker 1: that's a good thing, Like part of me thinks that,

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Speaker 1: like maybe the confusion that we're feeling coming out of

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Speaker 1: the other end of like a really consolidated era of

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Speaker 1: the Internet is good, and that the idea that like

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Speaker 1: a twenty two year old right now has like maybe

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Speaker 1: a dozen apps they're using I daily basis, maybe maybe

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00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 1: that's good. Yeah, maybe I don't know. Apps are simply

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Speaker 1: a portal to the broad juice of the Internet, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like really, and I do feel like I

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Speaker 1: don't know, And maybe this is maybe you have a

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Speaker 1: different perception of this, but like I feel like the

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Speaker 1: Internet in terms of its of its appeal peaked and

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00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,479
Speaker 1: died to some degree with the Trump era. Like I

409
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 1: feel like there's just such a saturation of information and

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Speaker 1: content and emotion during the like lead up to Trump's

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Speaker 1: presidency and then all through it. I feel like we're

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Speaker 1: in this kind of valley, and I would say depressed,

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Speaker 1: not in the state of like mind, but depressed in

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Speaker 1: the actual sort of definition of the word by definition

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Speaker 1: that something has just settled down from that peak. And

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like I don't know how much we

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Speaker 1: can take as human beings, like in terms of the

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00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 1: peaks and valleys, like I think about this all the time.

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Speaker 1: When I used to you know, I used to be

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Speaker 1: a rave DJ and I would DJ a trance at raves.

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Speaker 1: But you know, one of the things I think about

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Speaker 1: all the time was like, there's only so many build

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Speaker 1: ups and breakdowns you can give an audience before they

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Speaker 1: start to fatigue, you know, Like there's only so many

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Speaker 1: times you can go up to the top of the

426
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 1: mountain and drop them back down and go back up again.

427
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: Right at some point, you know, the dopamine is no

428
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: longer there if you're not on drugs, Like it's tough. Yeah,

429
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 1: that's what the drugs are for, right, But I think

430
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 1: it's like you can't be on cocaine all the time,

431
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you can't be on

432
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: eccessy all the time, Like you can't be your body

433
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 1: will reject that. It feels to me like a little

434
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 1: bit like the Internet has done that. And now what

435
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,439
Speaker 1: what we're living in, what we have is this weird

436
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 1: almost like limbo right where it's not quite the thing

437
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 1: it was and we didn't even like it that way,

438
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,919
Speaker 1: and nobody kind of knows like what that resolves too.

439
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 1: It went all it was up up up, it was

440
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 1: like iPhone to end of Trump's presidency and culminating with

441
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 1: January sixth. In a way, it was like could there

442
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: have been any more thing that was ever on more

443
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: online than that whole era right from like the moment

444
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: we all got iPhones right and had the Internet in

445
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,239
Speaker 1: our hand and in our pocket, to the president of

446
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: the United States basically like launching a coup right that

447
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: we were all watching and experiencing in real time. That

448
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: was like a national like crazy national event that like

449
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody at the time could like fully

450
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 1: take stock of, Like where do you go from there?

451
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 1: That's interesting? I spakes ay sets, but no, no, it does.

452
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,479
Speaker 1: It's what's really funny, is like I think about it

453
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: in a similar way, but not so basically, Like my

454
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: music background is like emo punk, scott music, stuff like that,

455
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: so I always sort of think of interesting. Of course, yeah,

456
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 1: I mean, look at my beard, um, but I always

457
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: think of I always think of the Internet through like

458
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 1: a cultural lens. So for me, like the Trump administration

459
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: and the Trump campaign in particular, was sort of that

460
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: moment where the subculture goes mainstream and it gets uglier,

461
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: it gets weirder, you know, this is the moment where

462
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: like Nirvana becomes Nickelback, right, and it gets like, it

463
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: gets interesting and ugly, and then there's always that moment

464
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: afterwards where things are like really interesting and strange and

465
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: they start to mutate and you sort of get that

466
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: new subcultural wave. Well out of curiosity, what would you

467
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: describe as the post Nickelback subcultural wave that occurred? Would

468
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: you sort of get that response in the early two

469
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 1: thousands from bands like The Strokes, who are going like

470
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: the art rock direction, right, you sort of get that

471
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 1: light I see, okay in the rock sphere. I mean,

472
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of factors at play, but definitely like

473
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: rock music went through a pretty bad period and then

474
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: became like well, you know, it's also like we started

475
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: to have a society that was actually more aware of

476
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: the fact that, like white culture was not the only

477
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: culture that existed. So that probably has a lot to

478
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: do with the fact that suddenly other types of music

479
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: was starting to become like charitable stuff. You know. Yeah, anyhow,

480
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: this is the longer that's a different podcast. In my metaphor,

481
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: this would be like we had our sort of like

482
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: mainstream breakout of like consolidated social media and it got

483
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 1: real mainstream to a point where it like toxified completely,

484
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: and now we're sort of in this moment where I

485
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 1: think young people in particular are sort of searching for

486
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: new things. I think the reason why they're gravitating towards

487
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: like messaging apps or just full on entertainment apps that

488
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: they stare at, like TikTok and sort of that middle ground,

489
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: that idea that like you don't need your entire family

490
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: on a public social network talking to each other. Like

491
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: those ideas are dying out, and I think a large

492
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: reason is because of the ugliness we saw from like

493
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one, right, I mean, it's

494
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: like putting everything out there seems very unattractive, even in

495
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,959
Speaker 1: smaller communities. Like I feel like there was this whole

496
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 1: run of YouTube people, yeah than like you know, being

497
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: abusive or weird or horrible, than having to do apology videos,

498
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 1: and I feel like that's kind of tapered off. Like

499
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: I feel like that, And maybe I'm wrong because I'm

500
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: not in the YouTube world, but I feel like that

501
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: whole part of the cultural moment where there was a

502
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: lot of like YouTube drama seems to have also it's

503
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: like people are just putting less out there in terms

504
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: of their personal stuff. Yeah, I mean I like YouTube

505
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: a lot now because it feels like a place where

506
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: just like weird hobbyists to hyper fixate on something and

507
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: I yeah, I like that stuff. I know, I love it.

508
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: I mean I've actually become like I've become a YouTube

509
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: viewer and a subscriber to people because there actually are

510
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: so many truly weird people on YouTube doing things that

511
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: are just um utterly fascinating that are not mainstream. I

512
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: don't think that they're mainstream, Like there are things that

513
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: you could popularize in a mainstream way, Like there's a

514
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: lot of weird makers. Like I started following this guy

515
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: whose name is Scott Eugen and he does a lot

516
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: of three D printing, and he has a video where

517
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: he's like I wanted to organize my desk, and it's

518
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: like he created this insane, hyper specific three D printed

519
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: system for every piece of gear he has and like

520
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: made a perfect pocket for everything and it all fits together.

521
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: And it's like that's really but that's satisfying. I bet

522
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: that's really. Oh my god, it's it's amazing. One It's like, wow,

523
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: what a talent, Like what an amazing skill to just

524
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: go I mean, actually it's a bunch of Sorry not

525
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: to get off topic here, but to your point about

526
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: YouTube being like an enjoyable place to be a lot

527
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: of the time now, because there's like a lot of

528
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: content that's like very professionally done but super strange by

529
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: comparison to what might be available on like more linear

530
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: platforms anyhow, you know, but like just the fact that

531
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: it's such a strange combination of things. It's like, one,

532
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: there's this guy who puts these videos on YouTube too.

533
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: They're really well made. Three he's really good at things

534
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with YouTube, like three D

535
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: printing and designing things and like design just generally and

536
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: for he's like doing videos about things that are just

537
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: like scratching a weird itch, Like I want to see

538
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: how organized somebody could be. What's the most organized you

539
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: could be when it comes to like your desk set

540
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: up or whatever. Like that's a place that I find

541
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: to be pretty special. But it took I feel like

542
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: it took a while to get there, and it makes

543
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: me worried. It makes me worried that I like it

544
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: so much now because it makes me think that it's

545
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: going to go away or change. You think, so, well,

546
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: we just get charge more for it. I mean, do

547
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: anythink that'll just be yeah? Hey, well, I mean I

548
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: pay for YouTube, I don't know whatever, premium like. I

549
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: feel like it's a good value. I feel like I'm

550
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: getting my money's worth. I just I try to buy

551
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: a Google smart home devices fast enough to keep it

552
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: going for free. That's like a twenty dollars Google smart

553
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: Hope thing. And you get like six months free. Yeah,

554
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: you get like two or three months. Yeah, you know,

555
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: it works out. It's actually a thing you've done. It's

556
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: done something I did consciously, but I kept I moved

557
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: apartments recently, so I upgraded a bunch of smart home stuff,

558
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: and every time I would buy one, I would get

559
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: like a couple more months. So it's like, oh, I

560
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: guess I'll wait and just like keep buying them at

561
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: a pace. Right, smart, that's very smart. That's a life hack,

562
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: as I believe what the kids are referred to. That

563
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: ass good life hack for you. That's right anyhow, But

564
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: you were saying something completely interrupted. You went off on

565
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: a tangent. We were talking about YouTube. We're talking with

566
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: the Internet. I don't remember it's gone now. Well, I

567
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: just I get really nervous when I when I start

568
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: to like an entire social network like YouTube, and I

569
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: start to feel like a positive feeling about it, because

570
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: it makes me think that like it's gonna go away change.

571
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: And I think YouTube in particular, it's kind of an

572
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: inspirational space on the Internet at the moment because it's

573
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: it's probably the largest collection of paid hobbyists maybe in

574
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: human existence, and these people are making stuff a lot

575
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: of times for little or no money, and then the

576
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: ones that do make some money like keep going, and

577
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: you know, obviously you eventually get to the point where

578
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: you're not making useful things anymore and you're just sort

579
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: of making entertainment. But then that's fine too. Like I

580
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: have a weird guy I like. His name is Simon

581
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: the Magpie, and he's like a completely insane man who

582
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: takes a part toy synthesizers and makes new synthesizers on them.

583
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: I love it, Yeah, and like that sounds great. I

584
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: was trying to think of like what YouTube reminds me of,

585
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: and I think I've written about this before, but I

586
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: can't keep track anymore. But I it reminds me like,

587
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: it reminds me a lot of like cable in the

588
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: mid two thousands, where you turn on yeah, like VH

589
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: one and there'd be like a weird show on and

590
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: you'd watch it. Well, I mean everything in a way

591
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: is becoming more like TV. I mean the thing that

592
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: is actually striking about the Internet, like you mentioned TikTok,

593
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: TikTok is as close to channel flipping as you can

594
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: get really on the Internet. Like what it is is

595
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: like although what's different is, of course, like every channel

596
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: you flip too has is somehow designed for you. Yeah,

597
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: but YouTube is similar in the sense and if you

598
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: look at like obviously every streaming service, which is more

599
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: and more like Netflix now has commercials, which is more

600
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: like regular linear TV. But but YouTube is is exactly

601
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: like having cable, right, it's just the cable. There's so

602
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: many more channels and you don't have to you're not flipping.

603
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: You can actually just go and look and say, okay,

604
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: these are things I want to watch. But it is

605
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: like lean back. It's not highly interactive, right, you can

606
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: comment on stuff, you can watch stuff live, but it's

607
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: designed for you to just sit there and view and

608
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: I think obviously, TikTok wants you to become a person

609
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: who makes TikTok videos, and I assume that YouTube wants

610
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: that as well. But like as a consumption experience, they're

611
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: not really asking too much from you, asking that you

612
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: spend time there. Do you do you get algorithm headaches?

613
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: I don't know how else to describe it. Do you

614
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: like get a headache when you look at content for

615
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: too long on one app or platform? Well, I have

616
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: a massive allergic reaction to all content. Like I've been

617
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: using the Instagram founders have a new app called Artifact.

618
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: Have you tried it? It's great? I love it? Okay,

619
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: I liked it a lot At first. I was like,

620
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: this is good. It's kind of recommending better stuff. But

621
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: like when I look at a news feed in general,

622
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: whether it's custom designed for me or separate like just

623
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: this other thing out there. If I look at homepage

624
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: of a website or whatever, I have a huge automatic

625
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: allergic reaction to like headlines and to the way they're

626
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: written and to what I know is behind them. I

627
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: see having spent a long time making websites that do

628
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: news and thinking about the news and thinking about how

629
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: content works, and how to sell content to people. Like

630
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: a big part of my job for almost the last

631
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: twenty years has been like how do you get someone

632
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: to pay attention to the thing that you are trying

633
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: to show them? And not just like my thing, but

634
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: lots of things, right, like like how do you get

635
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: people to pay attention every day, like twenty times a

636
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: day to this thing? And so as a result, when

637
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 1: I look at the Internet, I see the sheen of

638
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: content that just bounces off me, and I can pretty

639
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: much know behind most headlines. I can pretty much know

640
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: what I'm getting before I click, And a lot of

641
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: times when I see the headline, I'm like, I'm not

642
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: even gonna bother, like I know, and it Clickbait's not

643
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: the right word. I don't. I think we've moved beyond

644
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: the era of clickbait, because that's just like everything is clickbait.

645
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: Everything is like, yeah, it needs your attention, and frankly,

646
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: like content in general needs your attention. There's no other

647
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: way to look at it. Like, if you are a

648
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: TV network in nineteen eighty six and you've got your

649
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: four competitors or whatever, you know, your three competitors, you

650
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: are making content and you're hoping you can get clicks

651
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: and whatever they come in the form of people watching

652
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: in your Nielsen ratings. But so it's not like there's

653
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: a huge distinction. Headlines are headlines for a reason. They

654
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: have big, giant, fucking headlines on the front page of

655
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: a paper for reasons. They want you to see it

656
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: and want to read it and buy the paper. It's

657
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: the same as clicking on a link that's like you

658
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: won't believe what happened next or whatever. And perhaps we've

659
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: just because the artistry has become so flattened, because the

660
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: algorithms have so homogenized and made generic so much of

661
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: what we consider to be quote unquote content. I am

662
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: perpetually numb to how it looks like when I see

663
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: it just at a glance. And so like Artifact is

664
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: a great example of an app that I think they're

665
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: trying to do the right things. I think there's like

666
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: how do we give like make like a TikTok getting

667
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: a TikTok approach to like content like news. But if

668
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: you look at Apple News and you look at Artifact,

669
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: and you look at Flipboard, and you look at Google's

670
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: news feed, what you'll see is about the same, and

671
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: it is like what it's like them trying to guess

672
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: what you want, but what they think you want more

673
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: often than not as something that everybody else wants, which

674
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: is something that is really really thin and not much

675
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: more than a headline and a story that undoubtedly will

676
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: disappoint or lie to you in some way. I'm not

677
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: saying all media's lies or whatever, but you know, I

678
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: think a lot about not to ramble, though I am,

679
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: because you've kind of triggered, You've triggered me to be

680
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: honest and thinking about this. But um, you were talking

681
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 1: about like getting what is a content headache? Is that

682
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: what you or algorithm headache? Although before wait, before, before

683
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: we leave the sphere of artifact, the one thing I

684
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: will say is I never open it unless I get

685
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: a push alert for it. And the one thing that

686
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: I think is very ironic and funny about that app

687
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: is that it's trying to be a news app when

688
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: it's actually at least the way I've sort of accidentally

689
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: set it up by clicking around on it, it's now

690
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 1: just like a really nice magazine app, like something from

691
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: like fifteen years ago that you know you'd see on

692
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: like an iPad. Yeah, I mean maybe just like I

693
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: see the headlines I'm getting I have. I'm actually looking

694
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: at all of my notifications. Yeah, I mean too, Like

695
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: I pulled it up here and it's like they look

696
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: like headlines at the same exact shit that I see

697
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: at Apple News. But it's not it's actually not artifacts fault.

698
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: It's just like it's just the way people make content. Now, well,

699
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: I got one here. It says the Daily Beast murder

700
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: mystery two. Why does Adam Sandler choose such horrible films? Yeah,

701
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: but that's kind But listen, you hear it there the

702
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: content of that. Yeah, but like you know, like that,

703
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: do you want to read that? Do you think they

704
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: have the answer? Well, Bustle gave any insight into that

705
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: topic whatsoever. Bustle says that there's a Gilmour Girls continuity

706
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: or that's going viral on TikTok, and you know what, Yeah,

707
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: I'm pretty curious what that is. See, that's fucking bullshit

708
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: to me. That's complete garbage. That's the lowest of the

709
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: low garbage content right there. Just because it's like something

710
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: is happening on the Internet that everybody's talking about, you

711
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: better go check it out. Like, to me, it's not

712
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: a knock against Bustle. It's just that type of content

713
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: is classic, like content with a capital C. And this

714
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: all this stuff is like here's a good one slash film.

715
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: I got this as a notification from yesterday why Harrison

716
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: Ford's K nineteen The Widowmaker was a box office flop

717
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: And it's like, I've never heard of that movie. I

718
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: would love to know why. Well, it was a flop,

719
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: that's probably why. I why It's just like that to me,

720
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: that is a story that's like like Harrison Ford is

721
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: trending because if the new Indiana Jones or something, you

722
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: get to write some Harrison this is like where my

723
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: head goes like, yeah, it's his birthday, or like to

724
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: people talking about him in some cameo and Star Wars

725
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: maybe or whatever because it shit like that and they

726
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: go like, what can we write about? Like what's going

727
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: on Harrison Ford? Maybe he mentioned or what happens a

728
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: lot is in an interview random He'll be at a junket.

729
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: He's doing a junker for Indiana Jones and somebody's like, what,

730
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: what's the movie most regret you? I assume it's a

731
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,919
Speaker 1: It's always a British person, you know, and he said,

732
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: he'll say like, wow, kay, Ninetiana Widowmaker was a big flop,

733
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: and then somebody writes a story about it like it's

734
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: very interesting new information that we all need to know.

735
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: But this is my problem. This is a Josh problem.

736
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: This is not the world is not experiencing this. The

737
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: world is going, oh, I want to know. Okay, nineteen

738
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: the Widowmaker, I've never even heard of that. We finally

739
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: know who Amelia Clark is playing in Secretive Asion. All right,

740
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: she's playing a scroll of some kind. Don't fucking matter.

741
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: Who cares containing about the bush? How about the aween

742
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: of the scrolls? Maybe? But this is the thing. I

743
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: can feel it happening every time i'm any new app.

744
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: I can actually feel myself hesitating to read things because

745
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: I know the algorithm will go, hang on a second.

746
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: As soon as he reads this, he's gonna be like

747
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: I want to like. This happens to all the fucking time.

748
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: It's like I'll read one article about Taylor Swift's new video,

749
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: and then again it's like the Amazon problem. It's like, oh,

750
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: you're really into Taylor Swift. It's like, well, not really, actually,

751
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: and in fact, on a daily basis, the amount of

752
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift stories that I want to read is probably

753
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: not very high unless they're really good, which they almost

754
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: never are. Now, the headache thing that I was describing

755
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,959
Speaker 1: is actually the opposite, which is that I am someone

756
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: who really does not enjoy mixing my personal in my

757
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: non personal lives on the internet and so and so

758
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: Instagram is very tough for me because, like, I want

759
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: to post ugly photos of myself having a nice time

760
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: for like my mom and dad to see, and that's

761
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: kind of like a proof of life situation. And I

762
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: don't want to look at content. And I find that

763
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: when I look at like content with a capital C,

764
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: as you said, on platforms that are supposed to be

765
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: organizing life data, things get scrambled and I get like

766
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: a migraine in the back of my head. I get

767
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: like a throbbing in the back of my head, but

768
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: you actually get a physical reaction to it. Yeah. Actually,

769
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: the Twitter algorithm makes me like sometimes very nauseous because

770
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: it's just too much. I don't know what is it

771
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: showing you, Like, what do you see on your Twitter?

772
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: I find that I like just content being separate from

773
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: my life, and I think that like when an algorithm

774
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: is trying to force me to consume things and mix

775
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: all those things together, right, right, I get like uncomfortable. Well, no,

776
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean Instagram is classic, Like it's like you follow

777
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: some hot people, you follow some family, You're like, oh,

778
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: the new baby or whatever, and then it's like Kendall

779
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: Jenner or nearly nude or whatever the next frame, and

780
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, well that's a weird mix of signals.

781
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: Like but it's but you bring up up a better point,

782
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: which is like why are we even why do we

783
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: think we're supposed to be mixing those things? Why are

784
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: we supposed to be dealing with like our lives on Instagram.

785
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: I remember the conversations like ten years ago now probably

786
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: where you know, all of these people were saying that

787
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: the future of the internet was everything in one feed,

788
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: and right, I didn't ask why that made any sense,

789
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: And looking back on it, I don't have an answer,

790
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: Like I don't understand why it doesn't. It doesn't make

791
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: it makes sense because that's a good way to keep

792
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: your attention on an ad and because you have one screen, right,

793
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: you have like one well well yes, but but but

794
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: but like you can have your group chats in one

795
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 1: place with your family where you're sharing photos, and then

796
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: everything else so you know, on Instagram or whatever. But

797
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: but the but they don't really the systems aren't really designed.

798
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: I mean we're getting I think we're getting to a

799
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: point where people maybe are a little bit more aware

800
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: of how to use the systems. But they're not really designed, right.

801
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 1: They're all designed with one concept, like Facebook doesn't actually

802
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 1: care if you share things with your friends. The reason

803
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: that Facebook was designed was not like Mark Zuckerberg just

804
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: wanted to connect the world, Like he did not want

805
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: to do that. And I think like one of the

806
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: greatest like lies that we accept all the time, or

807
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: one of the greatest sort of like absurd statements that

808
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: we accept without really questioning. Ever, is this when people

809
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: talk about how like a person like Zuckerberg talks about

810
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: how he wants to connect people, It's like, well, that

811
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: was really your goal. You wouldn't have designed the system

812
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: the way that you have, right, You wouldn't put ads

813
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: in between those things. They're just a million decisions. You

814
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 1: wouldn't make the real goal. The real purpose was once

815
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: they figured out you could make money on it just

816
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: like Google with search. They might have been like, Wow,

817
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: it'd be awesome if you could search the internet. But

818
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: then eventually they were like, oh wait, like if we

819
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: stick an ad here, we can make a little bit

820
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: money while we show the search stuff. And then once

821
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: you that, once you do that, you're off to the races.

822
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: And the race is only how much time and energy

823
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: can we get someone to expend on our screen, right

824
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: on our ads, because we can make more money like that,

825
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: we can monetize these eyeballs and we can monetize this attention.

826
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, why are we even talking about our families

827
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: with on Instagram? It is nice, like if it was

828
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean I understand conceptually like it is when you

829
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: look at like your family and friends, it's fun to

830
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: see what they're doing and whatever, and maybe that's the

831
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: best application for But once you expand that out, once

832
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: you're it's like the attention economy is like you're leaning

833
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: into the attention economy, Like what do you do? It

834
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: just becomes all your stuff is in one feed. You know,

835
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: it's possible, it's possible. This is why we like YouTube,

836
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: you and I because it's not that because we're alone

837
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: with it it's just me and YouTube. It's just yeah,

838
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: it's me and my desk, lunch and YouTube. And I

839
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: appreciate that. I mean, I think there's something too like

840
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: the privacy of YouTube and that it is a social

841
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: network in a way. It has the elements of social networks,

842
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: but in terms of like my personal experience on YouTube,

843
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: it's a very linear, your one sided experience. Yeah, it's

844
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: like I choose what I want to watch, Like I

845
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: turned off AutoPlay. I don't know if you have AutoPlay

846
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: on or not, because I think that shit's just very bad.

847
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: There's an AutoPlay what Yeah, you don't like play the

848
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: next video, It'll just play like a video. Shit. No,

849
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that was about that. You're like, wow,

850
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: I've been having to look for a video. I have

851
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: to use my hands to consume more content, like some

852
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: kind of pan. You should turn on auto. I fucking

853
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: hate it. Oh man. It also does this thing when

854
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: you're finishing a video, it's like up next, and it's

855
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: like I don't want that. I don't want to see

856
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: what's up next. I don't want It's like it's like

857
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: at the end of shows now where they're like we

858
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: don't want to see the credits. Here's like the next

859
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: episode starting, or like here's some behind the scenes stuff,

860
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, stop that I don't want to

861
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 1: see that that stresses me out. Behind the scenes is

862
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: the worst. But wait, wait, yeah, you brought in my

863
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: discord earlier. And I think that this is like this

864
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: is a point that I hadn't really thought about, but

865
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: I think it's true. Which is like, during the pandemic,

866
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: not even just for my own like professional purposes, but

867
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: just to socialize, I was using Discord. Yeah, and I

868
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: had been told for many years the disc and in fact,

869
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: like I did a lot of reporting inside Discord as

870
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: like a place for white nationalists to gather in cells.

871
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: It was a bad place, sure. And then I had

872
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: a friend during the pandemic it was like, you should

873
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: just join our discord and like hang out. And I

874
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: was like, hang out on the internet, not in public.

875
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: What are you talking about, right? And so I did

876
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: it and I really enjoyed it. I mean, Discord is

877
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: like it's like a slack. It's essentially like having slack,

878
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: but that like it's not slack, yeah, and set up

879
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 1: for certain like activities that aren't really that Slack isn't

880
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: really good with. But I really enjoyed discord, and Discord

881
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: sort of like convinced me that I was behaving bizarrely

882
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: where I was trying to sort of like use Twitter

883
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: as like a group chat, right, And it's like, no,

884
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: it's full of some of the most violent lunatics that

885
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: have ever been in one place on the Internet. Why

886
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 1: am I doing it? Totally? No, I mean, but when

887
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: Twitter was small, sure, when Twitter was like Robert Scobell

888
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: and like four other weird tech guys or whatever, you know,

889
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: the Twitter I'm talking about, Like, yeah, I don't know

890
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: if you know, Robert Scobell just got a bad example.

891
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: But when I think about old Twitter, it's like these

892
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: guys who were like old school Silicon val like they've

893
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: been around for a billion years, Leo Leport and Robert Skill.

894
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: But those are the people who were on Twitter originally.

895
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: They were like these like tech nerds and like you know,

896
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: Jason Calcannis and who's still on Twitter unfortunately anyhow. But

897
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: the point is, but it was like just a very

898
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: small group of like Silicon Valley people on like some

899
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 1: reporters and whatever, you know, the early days of Twitter.

900
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 1: But it was real small. Yeah, it was real small.

901
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: Like that's why people are that's why people get canceled

902
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: for their dumb jokes or not even dumb jokes, just

903
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: bad shit. They said, that's why people are like, oh,

904
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: did you see this tweet so and so It it's

905
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: like yeah, because when they were doing that, there were

906
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: like four people that were paid attention. Nobody cared. It

907
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: was like it was basically like a group chat, you know,

908
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: not not justifying the behavior. I'm just saying, sure, you know,

909
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: that's why it's still there. But well, it's it is interesting,

910
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: like we want to be in conversation with people, like

911
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: conversation rules, Like I love I love conversation, Like I

912
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: have a fucking podcast, you know, like I think that's

913
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: the best. But but what is the right forum for

914
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: conversation is a question that I don't think we've at

915
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: least until maybe recently, we've accurately sort of grappled with.

916
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: For the Internet, the original conception of it was like,

917
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: did you do it everywhere all the time to everybody, Like,

918
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: because that's the way we're supposed to interact in the future,

919
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: I think we should go back to the original architecture

920
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: of the Internet, which is obsessive weirdos in increasingly hyper

921
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: specific communities arguing about tedious minutia. Yeah, you know, the

922
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: Usenet days. And I think that like, the further we

923
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: can sort of decentralize, the better off will probably be. Well,

924
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: I want you to imagine Usenet, but in a virtual

925
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: reality environment where you can interact with friends and family

926
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: and other and other collaborators across the metaverse. You know,

927
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: instead of going to a forum, think about walking through

928
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: a door into a room that represents the forum. Can

929
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: I do the backpack kid dance in this What is that?

930
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: I don't know that. That's the Fortnite dance. There's a

931
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: backpack kid dance? The backpack kid? Is that what you're saying. Yeah, Yeah,

932
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: I'll sell you an NFT of it. You can. I

933
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: don't want it an FT of it. I don't want

934
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: an NFT of anything. I've had my I've had my

935
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: dalliances with NFTs, and I've learned a lot about the

936
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: whole market. And it's a great space full of really

937
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: normal it's cool people. Great, It's a great place if

938
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: you're a bad artist, if you want to sell your

939
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: bad art somewhere to suckers. I've said this before, I'll

940
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: say it again that the boom of NFTs was like

941
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: the Olympics of bad art. It was just the all

942
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: of the bad artists came together in one forum to

943
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: sell their crap. It was like that corner you always

944
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: walk past in Manhattan where there's somebody's selling weird bad art.

945
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: They're always on that corner. Oh yeah, but it's like

946
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: that person's on every corner and it's not just a corner.

947
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: There was one NFT artist I really liked too, blew

948
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: up a toilet and turned the shards into NFTs, and

949
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty cool. That's cool. Yeah, that's

950
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense, because that's how do you turn

951
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: a shard of a toilet into an NFT. He fracturalized

952
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: the toilet shard and people paid money, but but but

953
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: paid money for what for the shard? Like I don't

954
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: sure if the shard like that's so great idea you

955
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 1: don't really cool? Is if you just sold the shard

956
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: like it a box. That's all. Now. He he destroyed them,

957
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: but I think he sold digital receipts of the toilet chard.

958
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: I don't know the whole thing was great. I appreciate one.

959
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: Are you a toilet shard owner? I wanted one, but

960
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: I didn't buy when they sold out before I could

961
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: buy one. But anyways, Yeah, he fractionalized the toilet and

962
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: then he did the same thing with the Lamborghini eventually.

963
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: Now that's cool, but only if you could buy parts

964
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: of the Lamborghini, Like I'd buy an actual part of

965
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: that Lamborghini. That seems interesting to me. Well, you can

966
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: buy a digital receipt of No, I don't want that.

967
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: I don't want that anyhow. So we've meandered here quite

968
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 1: a bit. We've meandered all over talking about social media

969
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: and content. I should say, by the way, I mean

970
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: we were talked about this at the beginning, but we're

971
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: talking on a historic day. The Barbie movie came out

972
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: to the Barbie movie trailer. No, the trailer came out

973
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: to day that you're a yeah, it's a big day

974
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: for trailers. The new Spider many Spider Verse trailer came

975
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: out for it, which looks great, looks fantastic. It's the

976
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: animated one that's right, looks really good. And then I

977
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: guess the Barbie trailer came out. That's the film starring

978
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling as the as the characters

979
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: Barbie and Ken and day for Content today, Big day

980
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: for Content. Then also Donald Trump, the forty fifth president

981
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: of the United States. Oh right, that was arraigned? Was

982
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: he arraigned as an arraignment? He was arrested and arraigned arrested. Yeah,

983
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: you can't make the shit up. He was arrested for

984
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: thirty four counts. Thirty four counts of like of paying

985
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: off a porn star that he had sex with. Yeah,

986
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: through his lawyer to keep quiet about it so it

987
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: wouldn't hurt his chances to become president of the United States. Yeah,

988
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: it's awesome, it's great stuff. Yeah, it's cool. Now you're

989
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 1: on the internet today, I assume you've been checking out

990
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: the internet. Does it seem like a different day or

991
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: a normal day on the internet. I haven't. Again, I

992
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: haven't really looked at the internet too much. So how

993
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: are people reacting to this? Is there a big reaction?

994
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: Doesn't seem like it. I don't feel anything. For a

995
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: lot of like neoliberals, today feels like a real sort

996
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: of like end of a TV show for them, it

997
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: feels like like cable News was having a real field day.

998
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: See to me, it sounds like the end of a season,

999
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 1: not a show. A season. Yeah, I I could say,

1000
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: you could say it's the end of a show perhaps,

1001
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: but I think today does feel sort of like a

1002
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: moment where everyone was kind of like okay, like maybe

1003
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: something crazy gonna happen, and like there's plenty of time

1004
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,439
Speaker 1: for crazy things to happen, of course, But I think

1005
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: really the lack of kind of like organically viral support

1006
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: for Trump in any capacity is interesting to me, and

1007
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 1: it sort of does signal maybe not a better future,

1008
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: but definitely like a different ecosystem. I'm more fractional, Like

1009
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: this is kind of what I was talking about in

1010
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: the beginning as well, which is like this idea that

1011
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: like the right is experiencing the same things we are,

1012
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: which is like they're is fractionalized as the toilet that

1013
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: was turned into an enterty, you know, like they are

1014
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 1: that they are as broken up as we are, like

1015
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: and they can't really come up with a consensus on anything.

1016
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: And I think that that's like a really interesting dynamic

1017
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: because Trump really needs that ground based support and I

1018
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: don't think you can get it anymore, because I don't

1019
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 1: think the Internet functions that way anymore, isn't it also

1020
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: like the party's over, Like like when all is said

1021
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: and done with Trump, it's like again, it's almost like

1022
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 1: the trance build up, you know, It's like the build

1023
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: up and the breakdown. It's like, how much of that

1024
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: feeling that he like inspired in his followers? How much

1025
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: is there right there? You know, there are some people

1026
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: for whom the whole thing is their identity. I get that,

1027
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: you know, it's like most of like kind of like

1028
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 1: racist weirdos. But like for most people, it isn't their identity.

1029
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: Like following Trump, it is not their identity. No, And

1030
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that they don't think Trump is cool

1031
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 1: or whatever, but I just like, where does that energy

1032
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: go after a while? Like you can't just keep pumping

1033
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: it into the machine. I feel like people don't have

1034
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: enough dopamine again in their system to like sustain it.

1035
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: It's like the morning after like on the internet. Yeah,

1036
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: you know, everybody's kind of like, WHOA, what was that doing?

1037
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: I think that's right, And I think that like already

1038
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: the Maga hat has like an acid washed jeans kind

1039
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 1: of feel to it. It feels very time and place

1040
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: like the twenty sixteen. The twenty sixteens feel as a

1041
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: as a as an epoch feel very dated. Yeah. If

1042
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: I say, like a peppe of the frog thing right now,

1043
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: I'd be like, and not because it's like I mean, look,

1044
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: I will say yes because it's racist, but also i'd

1045
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 1: be like, have some respect for yourself. It's just dumb.

1046
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: It's just dumb. Yeah, if you're gonna be if you're

1047
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: gonna be a white nationalist, like stay with the trends

1048
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, like like you're kind of

1049
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: out of the loop. Man. It feels very right over.

1050
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: It feels very party yeah, right, and like you what

1051
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: happens after the party's over? Like, I don't think I

1052
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: don't think the next generation is that interested in like

1053
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: social Like I mean, yes, TikTok is social Internet, but

1054
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: it is, like I said, more on com with TV

1055
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: you can be a TV show. But yeah, it just

1056
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: feels like, I mean, let's let's assume the TikTok is

1057
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: still legally able to be used by Americans by the

1058
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: time this episode coming out. I don't think they're not

1059
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: gonna bad TikTok. Do you think they're actually gonna bad TikTok.

1060
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: There's no way. I think. I think stranger things have happened,

1061
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,919
Speaker 1: but I think, you know, it's worth considering what could happen.

1062
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: But I do think. I do think more largely like

1063
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 1: the future of the Internet to me reflected by TikTok

1064
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: is actually one in which artificial intelligence and artificial intelligence

1065
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: power systems or tools have sort of inserted themselves as

1066
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: an intermediary. So, like, you know, TikTok is this fun

1067
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: video app, but like we talked about why it's algorithm

1068
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: is so good at giving you like toothbrush animal videos,

1069
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: and it's like because it's it's an AI, it's run

1070
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: by an AI company, and like that that album that

1071
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 1: was actually I should say that was actually about Instagram.

1072
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: But but oh yeah, I do get I do get

1073
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 1: even better videos on TikTok. I just don't interact with

1074
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: TikTok as much because I'm very old. I'm like basically dead.

1075
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: So but I think the idea of like interacting with

1076
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: an AI, either on the consuming side or the creating side,

1077
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: is like increasingly what we're going to be looking at

1078
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 1: for the next couple of years, where like you're either

1079
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: slapping on so many filters that you are essentially an avatar,

1080
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: or your content is being sent to you by an

1081
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: app like Artifact or TikTok, And you know, these things

1082
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: are going to suck at first, and then they get

1083
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: better and they get faster, and they get more sophisticated.

1084
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: And what's I think the most exciting thing for that?

1085
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 1: And like, I don't want to be a downer because

1086
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 1: I actually am kind of optimistic about this stuff, and

1087
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 1: to a certain degree, what's really exciting is like it's

1088
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: just so uncharted territory, Like we just don't know what

1089
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 1: we're gonna do with this kind of intermediary technology. And

1090
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: like for me, I'm just I'm ready for new problems.

1091
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: I'm ready to think about other stuff besides Trump. Like

1092
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm ready to think about other stuff besides like four

1093
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: chant memes, Like I'm ready. You know, it'd be amazing

1094
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: we say this like oh, the party's over or whatever.

1095
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: But are we going to be like De Santis is

1096
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: the nominee or whatever, Trump is the nominee in twenty

1097
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: twenty four, and we're going to be just back at

1098
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 1: this in the same rodeo. I don't know my fatigue

1099
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: level is so high. But you know what's so great?

1100
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: You know it's so great? No, wait, hold on, what's

1101
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: so great? Is like, we don't even know what de

1102
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,240
Speaker 1: santiss thoughts on AI are. Does he think it's too woke?

1103
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: Does he think it's not woke enough? Does he think

1104
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: it needs to be? That's definitely not an issue. I mean,

1105
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: it's it's exciting. You know. Whatever his thoughts on AI are,

1106
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: they're bad, They're dumb. I mean I can tell you that.

1107
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I haven't heard of We don't even heard

1108
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: a single politician say anything about AI that sounded remotely intelligent.

1109
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: So no, like, no, no, But it's fun oh, I mean,

1110
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: actually it's funny. You actually reminding me something I was

1111
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: going to say when I'm talking about the content fatigue

1112
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 1: and the allergy that I have, which is like Time published,

1113
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: the Time magazine which is used to be the most

1114
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: important magazine in America and now couldn't be more like

1115
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: any other fucking shit whole content farm that exists all

1116
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: over the Internet, like the fall from Grace that Time

1117
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 1: magazine has experience should be documented, and I'm sure we'll

1118
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: be documented. Has been documented in the history books but

1119
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: now they have to crank out garbage, clickbait bullshit just

1120
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: to try to get a couple of views on their content.

1121
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: They ran an article the other day from some guy

1122
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: who's like an AI researcher. There it seemed to be

1123
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: an endless amount of AI researchers, and the article was like,

1124
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: we must stop all AI development now and if necessary. Yeah, oh,

1125
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: because inevitably, without question, there can be only one end

1126
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: to AI, which is will all the death of all

1127
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: human life on planet Earth. That's the only possible outcome.

1128
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: And if we if we shut it down, which we

1129
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: must do right now because it's immediately into skynet territory

1130
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: in the next year or two, that we should do

1131
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: tactical strikes on it, like anybody's got too many GPUs

1132
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,479
Speaker 1: in any country. If China just want to go along

1133
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: with it, we should do a tactical strike on a

1134
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 1: GPU cluster in Shenzen or whatever. The fact that anybody

1135
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 1: would publish that article the most irresponsible piece of writing

1136
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: I've seen in a long time, is incredible. But but

1137
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: but the other thing is it probably was highly effective

1138
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: in their goal, which is getting people to click on up.

1139
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: But that's like I see that when I go to content,

1140
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: I see that everywhere, that same thing. Well, that guy

1141
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,399
Speaker 1: in particular, he's a he's an old timer, Eliza Yudkowski.

1142
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: He's been writing about AI for a long time. He's

1143
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: part of a group called the Rationalists, which we did

1144
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: not have the time to explain it for your listeners

1145
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: what that group is. But they're a better I mean,

1146
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: they're they're gnarly. I'm terrified of them. So I'm trying

1147
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: to figure out how to say this. Uh oh, really

1148
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: you're terrified of the Rationalists? Yeah, I find them deeply unnerving. Yeah,

1149
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: if we talk about them, will they find us? Well?

1150
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: I have. I have been approached in public by one

1151
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: of them who was like, we're aware of garbage day

1152
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: in like a very threatening weird way. So yeah, I

1153
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: try to They're weird. GA. What does what do the

1154
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 1: Rationalists do? What is the what is their main deal? Well,

1155
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: they're most well known for their meme Roco's Basilisk, which

1156
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: is this idea that you have to spend all of

1157
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: your money to invent an AI so that in the

1158
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: future of the AA it doesn't put you in cyberhell.

1159
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: There's more to it, Like I said, are they like singularity.

1160
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 1: Are they Singularity people? They are, but they're saying they're

1161
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: dark Enlightenment singularity people. So they're like dark light is

1162
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: so bad, Singularity is bad. No, No, so they're sent

1163
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: Their central idea is just basically the like, AI is

1164
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: the final form of capitalism. It is the most important

1165
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: thing that could ever happen. We need to spend all

1166
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: of our time and energy and money to create an

1167
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: AI because once the AI comes online, it will determine

1168
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: who did and did not help it, right, right, right,

1169
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: we have to be It's basically god stuff. I mean

1170
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: it's I mean, you can boil this down to I

1171
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: mean a lot of this AI stuff and we're in

1172
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: the simulation. All that stuff gets into really really quickly,

1173
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: just very simple. This is basic religion stuff. One oh one.

1174
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: This is like Catholicism or this is whatever. It's like,

1175
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: You're like, I need to, you know, make sure that

1176
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: my God knows I'm I have you know, respect for

1177
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: it or him or whatever, so that when I go

1178
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: to heaven or when I get up to the pearly gates,

1179
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: they let me into heaven or whatever. Right? Is that

1180
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: the basic idea? Yeah, And it's sort of that but

1181
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: with an aim and so I mean, I fucking love

1182
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: I love these people who believe we will get there

1183
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: before we run out of water. I think it is

1184
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: the shiite. I think it is so tight that they

1185
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: believe the inevitable thing is the that we're all uploaded

1186
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 1: our consciousness into AI, into an AI controlled computer. And

1187
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: it's like loop, though you're not in. You didn't give

1188
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: me any money when you could have developed me instead

1189
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: of us being like I'm paying five thousand dollars a

1190
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: week for drinking water or something like. You know, it's

1191
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: like the thing that kills humanity is not is not

1192
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: it's not going to be rogue AI. I just want

1193
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 1: to say, I just want to say, for the AI

1194
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: in the future that's listening to this as part of

1195
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: a scan of the entire Internet, I do not agree.

1196
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: And I'm happy that you're online now, and um I'm

1197
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: not dissing it. Please please cyber Hell, please I give

1198
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: you the AI would enjoy like cares about tortry to

1199
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,919
Speaker 1: human and cyber hell or whatever like like, well, they're

1200
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: like a lot of a lot of the argument is

1201
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: like the AI will just see us immediately as like

1202
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: we need to be eliminating or whatever. And it's like, no,

1203
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: if the AI is as smart as you think it is,

1204
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: like like how I am with most things on the

1205
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: planet that are of an intelligence that does not matter

1206
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: to me. I largely ignore it, largely ignore it. There

1207
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: are way more ants in existence that I could possibly

1208
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: care about or see, and the only ones that I

1209
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: ever see are once in a while trap see through

1210
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: my kitchen or bathroom, and nine times out of ten,

1211
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: I don't even do anything. I don't kill them. I

1212
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: don't put down a trap. I'm just like ants in

1213
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: your bathroom, You're just leaving them in your bathroom. Yeah, dude.

1214
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: In the summertime, I'm out in the country, man, there's

1215
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: fucking ants everywhere, ants all over. I wake up some

1216
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: mornings covered in ants. Uh, that's fair enough, Okay. It's

1217
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: just so amazing to me to think that that we

1218
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: will die at the hands of a highly advanced super

1219
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: computer or super intelligence that's sentient. When I know what

1220
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: will really kill humanity is we'll invent a pair of

1221
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: shoes that lets you jump really high, but then there'll

1222
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: be a bug and it'll like shred your legs. Everybody

1223
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 1: who has the shoes their legs will be shredded and

1224
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: their arteries will those bleed out. And that's how like,

1225
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: that's the kind of stupid thing that will destroy humanity.

1226
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: It's not we will not get to the AI, but

1227
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: if it is scanning the history books, I do think

1228
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: if we do get to the AI, that's a cool

1229
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: that's cool in AI rocks. Yeah, I love I love you,

1230
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: I love You's awesome? All right, Ryan, listen, we have

1231
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: to wrap up. Unfortunately, I'm so sorry. We just got

1232
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: into the good stuff. We need another two or three hours. Really,

1233
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,919
Speaker 1: let's do a full six hour. What's up with What's

1234
00:59:58,040 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: up with that? What's up with AI? Man? It'd be

1235
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: talking about it. We can't can't go any further because

1236
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: is it good? Or is that good or not good?

1237
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: I don't know anyhow we should you gotta come back on.

1238
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: I would love to think, you know, we gotta pick.

1239
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: We're gonna pick one of these many topics. We're gonna

1240
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: talk about the rational it's the thing called the rationalists.

1241
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. Never heard who who?

1242
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 1: What we're gonna call. We're gonna have a whole episode

1243
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be like Ryan Broderick versus the Rationalist.

1244
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: Actually that should be the title of this episode, do

1245
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: you mind. I'm begging you, know, okay with you, I'm

1246
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: begging you to make it to catch the title though, Listen,

1247
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: you know I can't, so I can't. I'm not responsible

1248
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: for what works from a content perspective. I just happened

1249
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: to love the Rationalists. I think your ability to build

1250
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: cybergod is very cool. Please don't yell at me, all right, Ryan,

1251
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us on What Future.

1252
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I think we've we've got

1253
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: the answer that we've been looking for, and M and

1254
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: I do appreciate it. Awesome. We'll thank you very much. Frankly,

1255
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot I have a lot more questions about

1256
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 1: AI and the Rationalists I would have liked to get into,

1257
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,919
Speaker 1: but that will have to wait for another podcast with Ryan.

1258
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 1: I actually feel like he caused me to ramble about

1259
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: a lot of things that I have been thinking and feeling,

1260
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: and that's either good or bad. I can't really tell.

1261
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: But anyhow, he's terrific. We'll have him back on. Well,

1262
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: that is our show for this week. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: next week with more What Future and as always, I

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Speaker 1: wish you and your family the very best.