WEBVTT - Tom Straw

0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.040
<v Speaker 1>The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand Up Tour continues throughout

0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.280
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty four. For a full list of dates and tickets,

0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.560
<v Speaker 1>go to the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour.

0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.640
<v Speaker 1>See you out there, the Greig Ferguson show dot Com

0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:18.760
<v Speaker 1>slash Tour. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of

0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:23.520
<v Speaker 1>this podcast is Joy. I talked to interest in people

0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:30.720
<v Speaker 1>about what brings them happiness. Welcome to my conversation with

0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.440
<v Speaker 1>Tom Straw. Now, I'll be honest with you. It's not

0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.640
<v Speaker 1>my first conversation with Tom. He was a writer on

0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:38.960
<v Speaker 1>my old late night show and I've known him for

0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.360
<v Speaker 1>many years. He's a very clever, intelligent and funny man.

0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:52.120
<v Speaker 1>As you're about to find out, Ed Begley was on

0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.080
<v Speaker 1>the Ed Begley Junior Because I've never met Ed Begley Senior,

0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.400
<v Speaker 1>but Ed Begley Jr. Was on the podcast and he

0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.200
<v Speaker 1>told me, Has Parkinson's you've worked.

0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.440
<v Speaker 2>With Ed with Ed. I had the great pleasure of

0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:04.040
<v Speaker 2>working with Ed on a pilot. When I see the

0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.360
<v Speaker 2>nicest guy into a business, it is terribly nice. I'm

0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.520
<v Speaker 2>or Henry Winkler. It was either Ed Bagley, Joel or Henry.

0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:11.360
<v Speaker 2>We did some stuff with Henry Winkler on the Late

0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.680
<v Speaker 2>Late Show. Yeah, but Ed was in a pilot that

0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:16.600
<v Speaker 2>I did at Castle Rock when I was there back

0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:21.040
<v Speaker 2>in the Castle Rook. Yeah, that was the Rob Reiner's company.

0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.360
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, they made a little show called Seinfeld. You

0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.840
<v Speaker 2>may have heard of. Nah, No, I didn't get it.

0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Is that still on side? Felt relentlessly? Yeah?

0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.679
<v Speaker 1>You of course are you do you don't have any

0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:33.200
<v Speaker 1>of that sweet sign field money?

0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:35.800
<v Speaker 2>No, No, I have a story of somebody who lost

0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of it. But help me. Yeah, I can't

0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.280
<v Speaker 2>mention names, all right, I'll put the names in, Okay. Later.

0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:49.240
<v Speaker 2>There was a guy I knew very well and he

0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.640
<v Speaker 2>had points. You know how points work, right it?

0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.280
<v Speaker 1>Points are a percentage of the of the game, the mood,

0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:57.800
<v Speaker 1>the profits, right right.

0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:02.760
<v Speaker 2>He had fifteen points in Seinfeld. He's a writer or

0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.280
<v Speaker 2>a producer. You've got to be at fifteen points. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.920
<v Speaker 2>And again no names, I'll try to avoid too much context.

0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.680
<v Speaker 2>But he had fifteen percent of the bank vault, right,

0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.360
<v Speaker 2>that's huge. As you may know, Seinfeld was on the

0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.079
<v Speaker 2>bubble when it started. It wasn't it almost yeah, make it. Yeah,

0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.840
<v Speaker 2>that's right. Yeah, And he ran into some financial needs,

0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.480
<v Speaker 2>family loss, and so he went back into the boss

0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.920
<v Speaker 2>at Castle Rock and I said, I'd like to sell

0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:36.040
<v Speaker 2>my points back. And the boss, who's still a friend

0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.720
<v Speaker 2>of mine, great guy, he said, never give your points back.

0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.120
<v Speaker 2>And he said, I really need to get a new

0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.680
<v Speaker 2>house and because my family's expanding and all that. So

0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:49.440
<v Speaker 2>he sold it for one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Man,

0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:51.640
<v Speaker 2>because it's got to be that'd be worth like one

0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:57.320
<v Speaker 2>hundred million dollars. Yeah, I mean that's the big few money. Yeah.

0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:00.160
<v Speaker 1>They think about few money though that I've known as

0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.720
<v Speaker 1>I got a little bit of it myself, Bacon.

0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.280
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it really can. You people don't know that about

0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:07.080
<v Speaker 2>a few money. It can.

0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.560
<v Speaker 1>It's like when people win the lottery, you know, and

0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.760
<v Speaker 1>they say and then suddenly within five years there you know,

0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:15.280
<v Speaker 1>their lives are trashed in there.

0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.320
<v Speaker 2>You know it's a double It's the worst good news

0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:19.480
<v Speaker 2>you can get, Isn't it weird?

0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:21.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, because because you think money is going to

0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.720
<v Speaker 1>solve all your problems, it doesn't bring joy. It does

0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.400
<v Speaker 1>not bring joy that you tie the end of the

0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.880
<v Speaker 1>podcast home, Well, I'm going to do that because I

0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.399
<v Speaker 1>you know, yes, and I'm a big fan of this podcast.

0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:37.600
<v Speaker 2>I noticed you're sponsored by Bacon. Bacon, Bacon. The ads

0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:44.080
<v Speaker 2>are great, sponsored by Bacon sponsors, just Bacon. I love bacon.

0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.080
<v Speaker 2>And I said, I've got to see Craig today. Yeah,

0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.080
<v Speaker 2>so here I am, because you're sponsored by Bacon.

0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.880
<v Speaker 1>No, no Francis Bacon, No, no, just no bacon.

0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Even Kevin Bacon. There's not even six degrees a separation.

0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.800
<v Speaker 2>It's just bacon. And you're It's all over you. I mean,

0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.320
<v Speaker 2>every break, the yank dank dank dank dunk comes and

0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.160
<v Speaker 2>then there's some guy talking about bacon, wow, and how

0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:08.520
<v Speaker 2>good it is. You know, I don't eat bacon. I

0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.560
<v Speaker 2>didn't know that, but I don't eat that. Oh really No,

0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't need Can I finish yours? Then? Yeah, you

0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:15.920
<v Speaker 2>could have my bacon.

0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.320
<v Speaker 1>The giant play of bacon that's in front of so

0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:21.640
<v Speaker 1>provided by our sponsor, Bacon.

0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:23.600
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't eat it, but he's wearing a bacon suit.

0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.320
<v Speaker 2>I do wear bacon. I do wear a lot of bacon.

0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:27.159
<v Speaker 2>That is true.

0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.280
<v Speaker 1>Now, listen, you and I worked together. I first became

0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.920
<v Speaker 1>aware of you when somebody said, Tom Straw will come

0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.200
<v Speaker 1>and work on your show. And I'm like, Tom Straw,

0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.640
<v Speaker 1>the writer from of sitcoms, will come and work on

0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:40.039
<v Speaker 1>the show.

0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Now. You came and worked on the late night show

0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:43.719
<v Speaker 2>because you wanted to do it.

0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, I did. You're the only guy. I didn't even

0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:47.279
<v Speaker 1>want to do it. I just did it because I

0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.040
<v Speaker 1>needed a job that kept me in town. You were

0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:50.680
<v Speaker 1>the only guy that wanted to be on the old

0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:51.440
<v Speaker 1>late night show.

0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.680
<v Speaker 2>I was a huge fan of the show when you

0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.599
<v Speaker 2>took it over, and it was like it was a

0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:00.680
<v Speaker 2>late night staple for my wife and we would stay

0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:02.799
<v Speaker 2>so cool and and the phrase that she would always

0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.200
<v Speaker 2>use is, you know that Craig Ferguson's really coming into

0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.279
<v Speaker 2>his own and so that kind of became our code.

0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.240
<v Speaker 2>But I was such a huge fan of the show,

0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.359
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I part of joy for me is

0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.040
<v Speaker 2>doing things I've never done before, to do the scary

0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:23.320
<v Speaker 2>thing and to never having worked on that kind of format.

0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I know because I knew.

0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.719
<v Speaker 1>I knew of you because I had worked in sitcom

0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:29.520
<v Speaker 1>in the nighties, I had worked on the New Carry Show,

0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:31.640
<v Speaker 1>and you were doing Grace under Fire right.

0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I was the aptly.

0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:38.720
<v Speaker 1>Named yes, which was with Brett Butler. Brett Butler, Yeah,

0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.880
<v Speaker 1>but yeah, I worked in sitcom for years.

0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean I would. I did Night Court right right?

0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.120
<v Speaker 2>You didn't do the reboot? Did you do the rebook?

0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:46.240
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.080
<v Speaker 2>I did not. I did have a conversation prior to

0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:52.480
<v Speaker 2>it with our mutual friend John Lara Katt. Oh. Yeah,

0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.839
<v Speaker 2>I love Lara. I haven't seen him in years. Where

0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.520
<v Speaker 2>the hell is he? He's living in southern Washington state,

0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.400
<v Speaker 2>right across the river from Portlan, Oregon. Okay, is he smoking? No,

0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:07.599
<v Speaker 2>he's he's he's totally clean. Yeah. Yeah, here's an insight

0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.520
<v Speaker 2>into John. I hope he wouldn't mind me telling this story.

0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.919
<v Speaker 2>But he went to a photo expo one day. He

0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.120
<v Speaker 2>showed up at the table reading and he's got like

0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.760
<v Speaker 2>eight cameras And I said eight cameras. He says, you

0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.440
<v Speaker 2>don't understand. When I was drinking, I wanted all the drinks.

0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.359
<v Speaker 2>He did. Now I want all the cameras.

0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he wanted. I was the same when I was drinking.

0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.599
<v Speaker 1>I wanted all the all the drink, all the drugs.

0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.719
<v Speaker 1>He's a dear man, though, and is a great and

0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:35.440
<v Speaker 1>whip smart. He's a huge bibliophile. He also likes books. Yeah,

0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:36.120
<v Speaker 1>well that's good.

0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but that would be like a thing for us,

0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.200
<v Speaker 2>Like we would sometimes meet for lunch at like Musso

0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:42.800
<v Speaker 2>and Frank and then he would take me to these

0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:47.719
<v Speaker 2>antiquarian bookstores and introduce me to Bokowski who was dead

0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:49.880
<v Speaker 2>but these books were was moldering in the.

0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.400
<v Speaker 1>Corner or was unsure that he was dead? Yeah, he

0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.679
<v Speaker 1>still had wanted all the drinks as well apart. Yes,

0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:56.280
<v Speaker 1>did you ever meet?

0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.640
<v Speaker 2>No? No, I'd be afraid to now, Well, he'd be

0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.080
<v Speaker 2>a zombie. No, yeah, I know I'd be afraid to be.

0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Would you Do you ever worry about Zoe Bees?

0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:06.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't that much, but I feel like I should

0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:08.400
<v Speaker 1>bring it up now that we're on the subject.

0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:13.000
<v Speaker 2>There are times that I see people and I think undead, classified, undead,

0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:15.640
<v Speaker 2>I've been.

0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:17.560
<v Speaker 1>I think I've been a zombie at that point in

0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.960
<v Speaker 1>my life. So, so you were working in set Calm.

0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:21.600
<v Speaker 1>Then how did you get into set Calm? So because

0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.360
<v Speaker 1>you worked in radio? Right, I worked in radio? And uh,

0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.120
<v Speaker 1>I worked in radio while I was still in high school.

0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:28.840
<v Speaker 1>I had Uh where'd you go to high school?

0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.560
<v Speaker 2>I went to Birmingham High School in Vanus, California, right

0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:32.400
<v Speaker 2>public school.

0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.360
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know you were California for some reason. I

0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:36.520
<v Speaker 1>was you were in the East Coast. I am, you know,

0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:42.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm by biker. But I had a mentor, Gary Owens.

0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.040
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember Gary Owens from Laughing with the hand

0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.400
<v Speaker 1>over the air? Yeah, he was my radio hero. But

0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:49.800
<v Speaker 1>I called him up one day.

0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:51.480
<v Speaker 2>I just put on my big boy pants and I

0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.560
<v Speaker 2>called him one day at the radio station and I said,

0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.480
<v Speaker 2>mister Owens, wow, you were you were that young? Yeah,

0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.320
<v Speaker 2>you got a little have with a helicopter thing on it.

0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Better put a seatbelt on that way. But I called

0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:06.400
<v Speaker 2>him up and I said, I want to be in

0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.240
<v Speaker 2>radio and I have my vocation. Teacher said I should

0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.520
<v Speaker 2>talk to somebody in radio. And he said, will Tom

0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.640
<v Speaker 2>come on down to the radio station on Thursday and

0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:15.120
<v Speaker 2>you can watch me do my show. I mean, what

0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.480
<v Speaker 2>a great guy, right right? Yeah, And so he mentored

0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:19.760
<v Speaker 2>me into radio. I got a job. I started a

0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.080
<v Speaker 2>radio station at my high school, which was just speakers

0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:23.960
<v Speaker 2>who wasn't on the air. But I made a tape

0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:25.320
<v Speaker 2>of one of those and I took it to a

0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.400
<v Speaker 2>coffee pot radio station in Van Eyes and they hired me.

0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.600
<v Speaker 1>What's a coffee pot radio station? Tiny little place all

0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:33.120
<v Speaker 1>right with they have a coffee pot.

0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's basically like the right so it snakes and

0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.520
<v Speaker 2>small little joint. But it was right on the dial

0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.719
<v Speaker 2>next to Shadow Stevens on CAMMI te Shadows Food on

0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.520
<v Speaker 2>the podcast, And so the kids thought I was on

0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Cammy Tea because they weren't paying attention to the dial

0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.440
<v Speaker 2>because he was a big radio start. But anyway, through

0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.280
<v Speaker 2>my radio career, I had a buddy, Ken Levine. And Ken,

0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:56.839
<v Speaker 2>I've had a lot of people could do good things

0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.559
<v Speaker 2>for me. But Ken mentored me into becoming a screenwriter

0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:02.920
<v Speaker 2>because he and I got fired a week before Christmas

0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.640
<v Speaker 2>at a radio station in San Diego. Yeah, he said,

0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.480
<v Speaker 2>screw it, I'm gonna I don't care if I have

0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:09.560
<v Speaker 2>to sell ties at the May Company. I Am going

0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.880
<v Speaker 2>to be a TV writer. And he had a partner

0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:14.760
<v Speaker 2>who he was writing with and they produced a show

0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.560
<v Speaker 2>called Mash Right that's a fairly that was a fairly

0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:19.920
<v Speaker 2>successful television Yeah, and he has a he has an

0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.240
<v Speaker 2>Emmy for Cheers also did pretty well. Yeah, and he

0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.360
<v Speaker 2>and he worked on Frasier and uh, you know he.

0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.480
<v Speaker 1>He he he's no, Yeah, that's but anyway, he helped

0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.920
<v Speaker 1>me learn how to write a script and got me

0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:33.920
<v Speaker 1>my first two jobs.

0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:35.960
<v Speaker 2>So what was your first job? And Secom Then it

0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.840
<v Speaker 2>was on after Mash? Oh wow, that that one. Yeah. Yeah,

0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.200
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of like I like to say, you know

0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.280
<v Speaker 2>how Purina has dog chow, but then they have monkey

0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.080
<v Speaker 2>chow and horse chow. Do you know what I like?

0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Do you know how you get pringles? Yeah?

0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.520
<v Speaker 1>Right, so pringles and there and their little kind of

0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.640
<v Speaker 1>phrases once you pop you can't stop. Yes, well they

0:09:55.720 --> 0:10:01.199
<v Speaker 1>have no golf springles called prongle, right, prongles, brouncles. Their

0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:07.440
<v Speaker 1>mud was once you pope. That's great, that's the B team.

0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I love that kind of thing. All right. So

0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.400
<v Speaker 2>you're working on after Mass, after Mash, and then I

0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.720
<v Speaker 2>wrote a freelance script for Benson if you remember that show?

0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Do you remember Benson? Yeah, that was a spin off

0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.360
<v Speaker 2>of Soap right, yeah, And they offered me a staff

0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.040
<v Speaker 2>job on the show based on the script I turned in.

0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Name the Acts of Robert Robert Gillum, Yeah, fabulous actor,

0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.320
<v Speaker 2>very funny man. I called Ken. They said, hey, congratulate me.

0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.240
<v Speaker 2>I got an offer too, and he says, don't take it.

0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.160
<v Speaker 2>And I said, why not? He says, because David, that's

0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.320
<v Speaker 2>his writing partner, David Isaac's. We just sold a pilot

0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.920
<v Speaker 2>starring Mary Tyler Moore to CBS, and we'd like you

0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.320
<v Speaker 2>to be on our show. But this is this is

0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of a modeling story. But I think they'll enjoy it.

0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.360
<v Speaker 2>They said, but we can't commit to hiring you until

0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.640
<v Speaker 2>we clear certain hurdles with paperwork at the studio. So

0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.880
<v Speaker 2>can you hang on? Can you buy some time and

0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.360
<v Speaker 2>not really do anything until with Benson? Until for a week? Right?

0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:06.640
<v Speaker 2>And I said, I don't know I'm going to do that.

0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.880
<v Speaker 2>And I called my agent. It was pre Nancy ruses,

0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.959
<v Speaker 2>Nancy Josephson. We should full disclosure. Is your agent and

0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:13.920
<v Speaker 2>my agent. That's high.

0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.319
<v Speaker 1>It been for about I think five hundred years in

0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.280
<v Speaker 1>my case, hasn't know how long for you? Twenty eight,

0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:20.640
<v Speaker 1>twenty eight. She's the best agent in Hollywood. You know,

0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.960
<v Speaker 1>I love that woman. She's the greatest agent in Hollywood.

0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.280
<v Speaker 1>She just hands down the best one there is.

0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.120
<v Speaker 2>I could go on and on, yeah, but I won't

0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:29.520
<v Speaker 2>because I'm going to get back to this story about

0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.960
<v Speaker 2>having to stall that's what makes you a professional. So

0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.760
<v Speaker 2>I called my then agent right and said, hey, here's

0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:37.840
<v Speaker 2>the deal. I laid out the thing. I said, I

0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.840
<v Speaker 2>need to somehow stall Benson so they don't get mad

0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.680
<v Speaker 2>and both shows go away for me, right, And he said,

0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.640
<v Speaker 2>I'll do what I can. The business affairs person who

0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.520
<v Speaker 2>handled Benson right, he was called the Iron Major. He

0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.280
<v Speaker 2>was a very tough ast agent out there. All right.

0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.000
<v Speaker 2>My agent calls me back two hours later and he said,

0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.760
<v Speaker 2>the Iron age or dropped dead at lunch today. What

0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.320
<v Speaker 2>he said, how's that for a stall? Wow? He really died?

0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.120
<v Speaker 2>He died. So I called my agent asking for a stall,

0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.640
<v Speaker 2>and hours later the person held the you know, hold

0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.920
<v Speaker 2>the button down. It remind me to give you wherever

0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.600
<v Speaker 2>you want. But that was Wasn't that astonishing? And I'm crazy?

0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.000
<v Speaker 2>So did But then did you? Did you end up

0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:21.600
<v Speaker 2>on Benson?

0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:22.120
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:24.480
<v Speaker 2>I ended up going with Kennon David onto Mary Tied.

0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.360
<v Speaker 2>It was called Mary on CBS. It was the first

0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:33.440
<v Speaker 2>sitcom for Katie sigal right. It had they also a

0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:40.480
<v Speaker 2>great woman. Oh she's terrific. Yeah, amazing John Ashton, Yeah,

0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:41.240
<v Speaker 2>I was just thinking it was.

0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.960
<v Speaker 1>A John Aston shown Aston showing Aston Johnston Joson Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.360
<v Speaker 2>And and uh, I don't know anyway, I won't go through

0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.440
<v Speaker 2>all the whole cast. But it was a great thing.

0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.840
<v Speaker 2>It was and it was a wonderful experience. The show

0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:54.280
<v Speaker 2>only went thirteen weeks.

0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.160
<v Speaker 1>That's no unhaired of my first sick call in America

0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.000
<v Speaker 1>went thirteen weeks. But I quit after ten I think,

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 1>or maybe no, I quit after thirteen, but they get

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:04.920
<v Speaker 1>picked up for another nine.

0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.679
<v Speaker 2>But White, yeah, yeah, it was. It was.

0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:13.080
<v Speaker 1>I loved doing I loved working with Betty and Betty

0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.920
<v Speaker 1>and I, as you know, stayed friends for the rest

0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.840
<v Speaker 1>of her life. But making the show, it was my

0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.679
<v Speaker 1>first sitcom in America, and I was like eighth Banana

0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:22.600
<v Speaker 1>and I did.

0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.439
<v Speaker 2>Not enjoy it. And you had a movie you were

0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 2>making too. You didn't that really make shaving Grace, wasn't that? No?

0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:28.400
<v Speaker 2>That was later. That's when I was doing the Drew

0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Kerry Show.

0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.040
<v Speaker 1>That's when when I was more comfortable being eighth Banana

0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.600
<v Speaker 1>because I had figured out how to film my day right,

0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Because I think, what people if you don't work in

0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.880
<v Speaker 1>as an actor, and most people don't eat, most actors

0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:43.000
<v Speaker 1>don't work as an actor.

0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.160
<v Speaker 2>If you don't work.

0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.319
<v Speaker 1>As a night, you don't realize how much just sitting

0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.959
<v Speaker 1>on your ass doing nothing there is all day long.

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.320
<v Speaker 2>I can't do that. I can't do it.

0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:55.719
<v Speaker 1>So I started writing sc when I got the job

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.520
<v Speaker 1>on the Drew Kry Show. I had written my own

0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.280
<v Speaker 1>stand up for years, and I thought, well, and I

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.000
<v Speaker 1>was reading screenplays as you do, you know, as people

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:05.880
<v Speaker 1>used to write screenplays before I read them, so I

0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.760
<v Speaker 1>can steal from them. Well, that was my plan. But

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 1>as I read them, I went, these are garbage. And

0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.160
<v Speaker 1>these were movies that were getting made garbage, And I thought,

0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:17.439
<v Speaker 1>I can't I don't know if I can write any

0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:18.959
<v Speaker 1>better than this, but there's no way in hell I

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 1>can write anything worse than this. So and these things

0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.440
<v Speaker 1>are getting made. So that's when I started writing. And

0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.680
<v Speaker 1>lo and behold, they did get made, you know. I mean, well,

0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:26.320
<v Speaker 1>I think there's.

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Also a certain thing here about being underutilized. I mean,

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.720
<v Speaker 2>when you know, when you have higher aspirations and also

0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the chops to deliver those aspirations. Yeah, you see yourself

0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.560
<v Speaker 2>sitting in a trailer, waiting and waiting, and you come

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.480
<v Speaker 2>out and you do lines and then not those lines. Well, no, no,

0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 2>By then I stopped doing those kind of lines. But

0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:50.240
<v Speaker 2>I think it's interesting to trace your path to all

0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.480
<v Speaker 2>the polymath that you are, all the things that you

0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 2>the same though, I mean you're the same.

0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 1>And it's like because the reason why I'm kind of

0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.560
<v Speaker 1>steering you this way is that I find and this

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:04.720
<v Speaker 1>is definitely what you've done that when soup comes to

0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.640
<v Speaker 1>nuts and you know, and the great wheel of time.

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Moves you know, Fortuna's whale.

0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 1>And the you know, the and when the dog of

0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.680
<v Speaker 1>history lady does a poop on the side of the road.

0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh yes, It's always about the right, It's always about

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:24.960
<v Speaker 1>the writing is the freedom. I just to think the

0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.320
<v Speaker 1>stand up was the freedom, but the stand up is not.

0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:29.920
<v Speaker 1>I thought it was, but it's not. For that is

0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:35.680
<v Speaker 1>freedom of performance, but actual full blown artistic, mental, emotional,

0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 1>and spiritual freedom. I think for me anyways, in writing,

0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:40.720
<v Speaker 1>and I know that is that it's got to be

0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:42.680
<v Speaker 1>that for you because you went back to writing books

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.600
<v Speaker 1>after we finished in the late night, right and still.

0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, and you know that that was thank you

0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.840
<v Speaker 2>for mentioning that. But you know, for me, the joy

0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.680
<v Speaker 2>of writing in many forms is for instance, when I

0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.000
<v Speaker 2>did the late light show right at the conference table

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:01.680
<v Speaker 2>ten in the morning for us to talk out our

0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.760
<v Speaker 2>day and all that stuff. And we'd go off into

0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 2>our sketches and you know, we'd pretend to be working right,

0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:12.600
<v Speaker 2>and and we do the show, skeleton, robot, all that stuff. Yeah,

0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.280
<v Speaker 2>six o'clock, we're done. There's no post production, that's true.

0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.800
<v Speaker 2>And I would go home. Yeah, and I would have dinner.

0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.160
<v Speaker 2>When I say home, I'm talking about the Oakwood apartments.

0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because you were you were eleven. You and your

0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.440
<v Speaker 1>wife Arelevin in the East Coast, and you used to

0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 1>commute to come and work.

0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, once a month, I would fly to la and

0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.000
<v Speaker 2>spend a month there, and then I'd fly back and

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.120
<v Speaker 2>spend a week of our hatus. That's a that's a

0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.720
<v Speaker 2>lot of pressure on the it is and it was,

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.160
<v Speaker 2>but you know we're strong and we're still you know, happy,

0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 2>and yeah. Well, I'll do a little sidebar here and

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.760
<v Speaker 2>talk about the number of occasions that you would come

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.040
<v Speaker 2>to me right before the show and say, Hey, Tom,

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.560
<v Speaker 2>I have a plane leaving Van Eyed Airport for the

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:54.080
<v Speaker 2>East Coast. You want to hitch a ride and come

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:54.760
<v Speaker 2>home for the weekend.

0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I would go that, Craig, but it was great. Yeah,

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.800
<v Speaker 1>after the time almost crashed. Yeah, there was that time

0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 1>that was in white Plans.

0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was when people started vrolfing. That was not

0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of fun. I still think about that sometimes.

0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh that was that was the most harrowing flight I've

0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>ever had in my life. Yeah, it was pretty hary.

0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.480
<v Speaker 1>The Craike Ferguson Fancy Rascal stand up to He continues

0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 1>throughout the United States in twenty twenty four. For a

0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.880
<v Speaker 1>full list of dates and tickets, go to the Craig

0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.240
<v Speaker 1>fergusonshow dot com slash tour.

0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:38.639
<v Speaker 2>See you have there. But anyway, what I would do

0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:40.280
<v Speaker 2>then so I would go back to the oak Wood

0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.840
<v Speaker 2>and uh, you know, call my wife, you know, before

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.159
<v Speaker 2>she went to bed because she was on East Coast time. Yeah,

0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.200
<v Speaker 2>and then I would write my Castle book. I'd start

0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:50.040
<v Speaker 2>about nine pm.

0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:51.920
<v Speaker 1>That's right, of course, because you were writing the Castle

0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.199
<v Speaker 1>Books at the same time, right, So do you know

0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.160
<v Speaker 1>take credit for the Castle books.

0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 2>I am able to take. I'm able to. I wrote

0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.159
<v Speaker 2>the first seven of the Nikky Heats, right, and I

0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.160
<v Speaker 2>paid my lawyers to find out if I could do this. Yes,

0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.399
<v Speaker 2>I can now take off the mask and say it

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.720
<v Speaker 2>was me as long as I you know, the first

0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.639
<v Speaker 2>there's those those ones I did. But I would write

0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:16.160
<v Speaker 2>from nine pm till about three am, right, and then

0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.520
<v Speaker 2>go to bed. Okay, get up at six and hit

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.800
<v Speaker 2>the internet so I can have topicals, you know, topical

0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.160
<v Speaker 2>things to pitch at the table, sleep in three hours

0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.080
<v Speaker 2>a night. Yeah, couldn't you tell? Yeah? I was going

0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 2>to say, you look younger than you did. Together. My

0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.360
<v Speaker 2>work habits were poort, weren't they. No, I'm kidding, but no,

0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.640
<v Speaker 2>you you were. You were a fiend.

0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean you used to work all the time, and

0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.000
<v Speaker 1>you were part of the team that come up with

0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.919
<v Speaker 1>Jeff Peters in the rule Boat, you come up with Secretariat,

0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.639
<v Speaker 1>the Dance and horse and all that, all of the

0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.040
<v Speaker 1>classic bets from our show.

0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:46.600
<v Speaker 2>You were in part of all of that. Thank you.

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.640
<v Speaker 2>I remember something you said, and it's one of those

0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.000
<v Speaker 2>little tapes I play in my head. Is that that

0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Tommy's always on the clock.

0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:52.840
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.240
<v Speaker 2>That's one of the things he was saying. But it's

0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, you do the work, yes, like what you

0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.240
<v Speaker 2>the way you started this thread. I take my pleasure

0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.199
<v Speaker 2>in the work, Yes, And I can be and this

0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 2>can be recent in the past year. I can be writing,

0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.480
<v Speaker 2>like working on a manuscript for a book, and I'll

0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.160
<v Speaker 2>get an email or a phone call with bad news,

0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:21.400
<v Speaker 2>right and damn, oh oh show business, cruel and biscuits. Yeah,

0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:23.800
<v Speaker 2>I'll go back and I'll hang up the phone. I'll

0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.919
<v Speaker 2>take five minutes to kind of cleanse, and then I

0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.240
<v Speaker 2>will just go back to writing. Same thing when I

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.600
<v Speaker 2>get great news, because that's the real thing. The writing

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:33.440
<v Speaker 2>is where it's at.

0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.240
<v Speaker 1>It's it's certainly the place where you can escape most

0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.960
<v Speaker 1>of all. The first time I ever wrote anything away

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:46.159
<v Speaker 1>from vulgar vaudevillian stuff. Yes, that I've written was a

0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.040
<v Speaker 1>book called Between the Bridge and the River, which is

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 1>a novel.

0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:49.040
<v Speaker 2>I love it.

0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.440
<v Speaker 1>I wrote thank you, And that book was in reactions

0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.560
<v Speaker 1>because I just made a movie that had steffed and

0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:59.000
<v Speaker 1>I was so frustrated with it because I'd written this movie.

0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.439
<v Speaker 1>I started in this movie, I directed this movie. I

0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.399
<v Speaker 1>was a producer in this movie. I didn't like it.

0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.960
<v Speaker 2>So it was like, oh, man, but I have to

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.159
<v Speaker 2>say to you, because this this is before you and

0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I met. Yeah, I read your novel and I thought

0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.400
<v Speaker 2>to myself, that's the same guy who does that. Yeah,

0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.320
<v Speaker 2>and it was just like the Snake Handlers and spring Style.

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I can remember it very vividly because it

0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.119
<v Speaker 2>was so very it really caught hold of me. It

0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:28.240
<v Speaker 2>was a great book. Thanks.

0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:32.280
<v Speaker 1>It's an interesting thing about writing because when I read

0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:34.320
<v Speaker 1>the first book of yours I read, I didn't read

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.040
<v Speaker 1>the Castle books. The first book of yours I read

0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.840
<v Speaker 1>was The Trigger Episode. Oh yes, Trigger Episode is a

0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.320
<v Speaker 1>great book. It's a detective.

0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Genre.

0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.399
<v Speaker 1>Let's say, it's not strictly speaking of detective, but it

0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.240
<v Speaker 1>kind of is. And it follows those rules a little bit.

0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.840
<v Speaker 1>And you and I are both fans of Larry Block right,

0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Lawrence Blog fans, great crime writer or one of America's

0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:02.439
<v Speaker 1>grand friend and friend. Yeah, and I'm fascinated by that genre.

0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.720
<v Speaker 1>But I wouldn't go near it. I'm entertained by it.

0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.480
<v Speaker 1>You you walk right into it. You're quite comfortable in it.

0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.600
<v Speaker 1>Why because it has it has rules.

0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.720
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it has rules and it's and it's a great

0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.679
<v Speaker 2>stage upon which to play out morality. Yes, for sure,

0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.679
<v Speaker 2>because you've really just basically got sort of uh, you know,

0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:29.199
<v Speaker 2>a kind of clastic hero or anti hero who is

0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.200
<v Speaker 2>great meeting great resistance with the establishment or somebody who's

0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.480
<v Speaker 2>trying to screw him over, or somebody else. And you know,

0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.320
<v Speaker 2>for me, it goes back to even Jim Rockford. You know,

0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I just I'm crazy. I loved files when James Gardner

0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:44.440
<v Speaker 2>used to punch someone in a fight and then even.

0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:48.040
<v Speaker 1>Go because he has had that's somebody on that say

0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:49.600
<v Speaker 1>it knows what it's like to be in a fight.

0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, I love that. But but my approach to

0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:56.520
<v Speaker 2>this genre, they say, is and it's really why the

0:21:56.560 --> 0:22:00.720
<v Speaker 2>Castle books. Let me tell you a little how linkage here.

0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:07.000
<v Speaker 2>The publisher of my Trigger episode, right themovie stiffed, Well,

0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.400
<v Speaker 2>how about my whole publishing house closed? No, Yeah, so

0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.600
<v Speaker 2>he went to Hyperion, which was owned by ABC Disney.

0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:15.720
<v Speaker 2>He takes me to lunch one day and he says, well,

0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:17.720
<v Speaker 2>there's a new show coming on called Castle. And you

0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.680
<v Speaker 2>know the relationship between these two people is a lot

0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.000
<v Speaker 2>like the relationship between you and your characters in the

0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:27.199
<v Speaker 2>Trigger episode. Would you consider doing a ghost write for

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.000
<v Speaker 2>a one off? And I said, yeah, sure, Well you

0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:32.600
<v Speaker 2>went to number six in the New York Times, and

0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.400
<v Speaker 2>then number three, and then number one for the third one,

0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.000
<v Speaker 2>and on and on and on. That's right, I know,

0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.600
<v Speaker 2>and like I knocked me over with a feather. But

0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.119
<v Speaker 2>the thing is there was sort of a joyful and

0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm not trying to pander here, but there was a

0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.639
<v Speaker 2>joyful experience in approaching. And this is what I have

0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:51.520
<v Speaker 2>in a new book that's coming out soon, is I

0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:55.399
<v Speaker 2>try to look at the mystery and thriller genre to

0:22:55.600 --> 0:23:01.320
<v Speaker 2>try to upend the sort of dark, clenched jaw ugliness

0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 2>of it and try to approach it in musically in

0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 2>a major key, you know music. So it's it's it's

0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:10.520
<v Speaker 2>a mystery and it's a thriller, and there are all

0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.560
<v Speaker 2>sorts of things in it that are ugly, intense and

0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:15.879
<v Speaker 2>all that, but there's also a romantic relationship that is

0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.040
<v Speaker 2>organic and means something right. The readers and viewers are

0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:22.080
<v Speaker 2>always looking for where's the hook? How do I get in?

0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:24.639
<v Speaker 2>What do I want out of this?

0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:26.679
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, that's what I mean. I'll say that when

0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:28.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm woising stuff with Megan as well. If you was

0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:30.399
<v Speaker 1>in the first episode of something, we'll say you in

0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, oh, maybe.

0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:36.240
<v Speaker 2>But people are always looking like they're holding a grappling

0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:38.400
<v Speaker 2>hook and they're looking for the place to throw it, yeah,

0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:41.760
<v Speaker 2>and get it. Get And I think that that particularly.

0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:44.080
<v Speaker 1>I wish i'd known that as a young performer, that

0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:47.159
<v Speaker 1>people want you to succeed. The audience does not anyone

0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.240
<v Speaker 1>else in show business. Everyone else in show business wants

0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:52.400
<v Speaker 1>you to fail, but the audience wants you to succeed.

0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:56.920
<v Speaker 1>And I sometimes feel like when I was early on performing,

0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:00.159
<v Speaker 1>I kind of held back a little or tried to

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:04.600
<v Speaker 1>appear more less genuinely enthusiastic about being there.

0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:06.920
<v Speaker 2>And then do you remember that time?

0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:09.000
<v Speaker 1>Do I tell you this story when I was working

0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:11.320
<v Speaker 1>with Mick Jagger when we were writing that screenplay when

0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:14.719
<v Speaker 1>You Went Ball, So, when I was working with Mic

0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Jagger and the first time I saw him performer, I

0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.040
<v Speaker 1>was talking to him afterwards and I said, that was

0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:22.199
<v Speaker 1>that was a hell of a performance you gave last night,

0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:24.520
<v Speaker 1>because it was and I didn't what else to say,

0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:26.560
<v Speaker 1>and he said, I said you do that every night

0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:30.160
<v Speaker 1>and he said, oh yeah. I said, now, I never

0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:33.560
<v Speaker 1>paid money to see someone who was shy.

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:38.879
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, that's great. I wish the audience could have

0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:46.000
<v Speaker 2>seen you do your Mick Jaggery. Yeah, no, it was. No.

0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:49.440
<v Speaker 2>You told the story and it was such a great one.

0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.120
<v Speaker 2>About how you were in Istanbul and you went into

0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:52.879
<v Speaker 2>the room and there.

0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:56.679
<v Speaker 1>He they saw in this throne because he was the

0:24:56.680 --> 0:24:59.640
<v Speaker 1>guest of honor make us very gracious and intelligent man.

0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:01.880
<v Speaker 1>So he's sit there and he's he's been very nice

0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:07.159
<v Speaker 1>and very nice to everyone they brought. That's hot, like

0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:08.280
<v Speaker 1>he was the king of something.

0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.879
<v Speaker 2>I can see him. Gunna fuck, no propeller around it.

0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:15.080
<v Speaker 1>If there was, it would have left this that was

0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:17.520
<v Speaker 1>huge and it didn't fit him at all. It wasn't

0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:19.560
<v Speaker 1>grounded in any way. I think he felt a little

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:23.240
<v Speaker 1>uncomfortable with the giant hat one. And had it been

0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.520
<v Speaker 1>the time of cell phones, I would have conquered the internet.

0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:28.160
<v Speaker 2>You would have owned the day.

0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:32.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, but sadly this was in the the analogue

0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:36.520
<v Speaker 1>times before the world fucking suck and everything was okay.

0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:41.119
<v Speaker 2>There was a comment made by Stephen King about writing

0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:45.919
<v Speaker 2>also not about writer, a writer and from people I

0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:49.760
<v Speaker 2>know who know him, a wonderful man. He's awesome. He

0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:51.199
<v Speaker 2>was he was. Were you there when he was on

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:53.440
<v Speaker 2>the late night though I didn't see that one. No,

0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:55.200
<v Speaker 2>he was, he was. I was there, but I wasn't

0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:55.760
<v Speaker 2>paying attention.

0:25:56.720 --> 0:25:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, you was that during your tenure or after. It

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:04.000
<v Speaker 1>was after because he was on and he was wonderful.

0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:10.240
<v Speaker 1>What a cheerful, upbeat, engaged, switched on human being lovely man.

0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:13.080
<v Speaker 2>I can only paraphrase what he said, but his quote

0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:17.280
<v Speaker 2>was that most he didn't say mediocre, but most writing

0:26:17.320 --> 0:26:21.080
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't succeed, Yeah, generally is born out of fear.

0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:25.119
<v Speaker 2>That's interesting. In other words, that triggered me when you

0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:27.000
<v Speaker 2>were saying about, you know, being a little shy on

0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:31.320
<v Speaker 2>stage and so forth, like that, is that restraint isn't

0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.720
<v Speaker 2>your friend? No, you know, no, in that, not in

0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:36.159
<v Speaker 2>in the arts. I don't think it is.

0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:39.720
<v Speaker 1>I think that in any form of artistic expression, if

0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:43.159
<v Speaker 1>you're restraining yourself, you're thinking about the audience. And if

0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:47.240
<v Speaker 1>you're thinking about the audience, you're lost. And it's kind

0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:50.479
<v Speaker 1>of I never knew that, Like The Greatest Battle. I

0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:52.240
<v Speaker 1>was talking to my son of it last the other day,

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:54.159
<v Speaker 1>because he's in you know, Milo.

0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Was a creative. He's in the arts.

0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yes, he's got his own animation studio. Now, I

0:26:58.320 --> 0:27:02.080
<v Speaker 1>mean it's it's nutt. Yeah, you ain't that little anymore.

0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:05.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, your kids are all big, oh yeah, yeah, it's

0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:06.960
<v Speaker 2>weird in their thirties.

0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:11.400
<v Speaker 1>That's weird anyway, So enough about them. But it does, Yes,

0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:12.840
<v Speaker 1>I was talking to him about it. I said, the

0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:15.119
<v Speaker 1>biggest challenge I have when I have an idea to

0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:20.480
<v Speaker 1>write anything is to not convert the first sentence into

0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:23.280
<v Speaker 1>the acceptance speech of the award that I'm going to get.

0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:24.760
<v Speaker 1>So it's like I said, it was a break cold

0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:26.959
<v Speaker 1>day in April, and I'd like to thank the Academy.

0:27:27.920 --> 0:27:32.399
<v Speaker 1>You have to stop that thought. Somehow do you get that?

0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Or am I just a you know, I keep trying

0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:36.480
<v Speaker 2>to tell myself I've learned this lesson, but I haven't

0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:39.879
<v Speaker 2>because I keep doing it right. But I used to

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:42.480
<v Speaker 2>say to writers in the writer's room on shows I

0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:44.879
<v Speaker 2>worked on, where do you spend the most time on

0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:49.400
<v Speaker 2>your script? Answer the beginning? Right? What is the first

0:27:49.440 --> 0:27:51.439
<v Speaker 2>thing you cut when you need to edit your script?

0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:55.040
<v Speaker 2>The beginning? But you need to clear your throat, You

0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:58.000
<v Speaker 2>need to do something to kind of get make friends,

0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:02.040
<v Speaker 2>shake hands with the project. You start right, and and

0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:04.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, again, there's all these lessons that we forget.

0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:07.440
<v Speaker 2>But to me, it's like, Okay, get through the opening,

0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:11.439
<v Speaker 2>overwrite it. That's why you have a second draft and

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:12.120
<v Speaker 2>a third.

0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:15.399
<v Speaker 1>Right, but I think that I think that that's the

0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:19.399
<v Speaker 1>that's the fun of writing is not the first The

0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:22.960
<v Speaker 1>first draft is is the is you you airn the

0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:25.960
<v Speaker 1>draft afterwards by going through the first draft. I think

0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:28.960
<v Speaker 1>the first draft is hard. The only time that I

0:28:29.000 --> 0:28:35.840
<v Speaker 1>find the first draft fun is when writing fiction, literary fiction,

0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:39.040
<v Speaker 1>because you don't know where it's going, so it's like

0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:39.560
<v Speaker 1>reading it.

0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:42.239
<v Speaker 2>You're not constrained to a form, you know, because there

0:28:42.320 --> 0:28:44.680
<v Speaker 2>is a rigid form to mysteries and thrillers, right exactly,

0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:49.520
<v Speaker 2>it was a pyramid and all that stuff, and that's valid,

0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:51.880
<v Speaker 2>but you have to kind of like do a dance

0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:54.920
<v Speaker 2>to not make it look like it's a recipe and

0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:57.680
<v Speaker 2>a cookbook, you know. People. Well, I think that might

0:28:57.720 --> 0:28:59.040
<v Speaker 2>be the skill of it as well.

0:28:59.080 --> 0:29:03.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean I read my first Agatha Christie about a

0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:06.600
<v Speaker 1>month ago and I was like, my god, this is

0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:08.200
<v Speaker 1>this is genius.

0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:11.160
<v Speaker 2>It was and then there were none was the name

0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:11.640
<v Speaker 2>of the book.

0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that is a spectacular piece of work. I mean spectacular.

0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:18.600
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know why I'd rather written off as

0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:21.680
<v Speaker 1>a kind of murder she wrote type thing and and

0:29:21.720 --> 0:29:23.160
<v Speaker 1>I actually I don't know why I would write all

0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:25.400
<v Speaker 1>that because I don't know about murders she wrote.

0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:30.080
<v Speaker 2>You were part of that. Yeah, but the writing and

0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:31.200
<v Speaker 2>that and P. D.

0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:35.760
<v Speaker 1>James as well, These these English women writers, amazing writers.

0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:39.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm a very big fan of the brit and Scottish writers. Yes,

0:29:39.080 --> 0:29:42.920
<v Speaker 2>then another one, yeah, Ian Rankin, Yeah, you know, a woman,

0:29:43.040 --> 0:29:46.480
<v Speaker 2>but it's still an excellent writer. Yeah. But you know, Mickherron,

0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:53.400
<v Speaker 2>the Slow Horses and trainsporn remind me Evan well, yah, yeah,

0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:57.160
<v Speaker 2>I love those books. I love the Brits and uh

0:29:57.400 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 2>and the Scots.

0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:02.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, there, it's all kind of you know, it's all

0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:03.920
<v Speaker 1>the same. It's the same language, isn't it.

0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there is. But there's a sort of a sense

0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:07.600
<v Speaker 2>that and this is kind of like why a lot

0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:12.880
<v Speaker 2>of the Scandinavian noir came out in popularity, is that

0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:16.640
<v Speaker 2>that region first of all greatly unexplored in the American

0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:19.240
<v Speaker 2>sense of Humphrey Bogarten those people like that, right, But

0:30:19.840 --> 0:30:22.040
<v Speaker 2>there's still kind of a very noir thing going on

0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:23.080
<v Speaker 2>in those areas.

0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:27.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, most of the year it's like this suddenly

0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:28.720
<v Speaker 1>comes up for a couple of hours.

0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:32.240
<v Speaker 2>I know, have you ever been up to the Skandinavia, Yes,

0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:34.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, I ran a marathon, a midnight sun marathon

0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:38.920
<v Speaker 2>in Trumso, Norway. What fourth of July. The race started

0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:42.040
<v Speaker 2>at eight thirty at night and it was sunny. It

0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 2>was incredible. Yeah, when was this? This would have been

0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:50.200
<v Speaker 2>six months before the towers came down, so this would

0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:53.520
<v Speaker 2>have been in two thousand and one. Wow, and July,

0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:55.960
<v Speaker 2>and what a great trip. I loved it up there.

0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:59.880
<v Speaker 2>The funny part, Craig, is that people assumed that I

0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:02.040
<v Speaker 2>was one of them because I'm blonde. Yeah you do

0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:05.360
<v Speaker 2>look yeah, you know, you still look Scandinavian.

0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:09.720
<v Speaker 1>You look like a professor of economics of Stockholm University.

0:31:09.800 --> 0:31:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, step in here, don't stop in here. We will discover.

0:31:13.480 --> 0:31:17.719
<v Speaker 1>I can only do Nazis from movies in the nineteen

0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:20.600
<v Speaker 1>fifties about you know, or previous war.

0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Or Romans as Brits. You know accent, that's Caesar, a messenger, Zia.

0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:29.520
<v Speaker 2>Don't call me Ziah. I'm Caesar Caesar. But people would

0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:32.320
<v Speaker 2>come up to me in in Norway, both in Oslo

0:31:32.400 --> 0:31:35.720
<v Speaker 2>and in Trumpso, and they would talk to me like no, no, no, no,

0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:37.360
<v Speaker 2>no no, and I'm just looking at them like Bill

0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Murray in the in the restaurant when PEPSI Pepsi. You know,

0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:43.520
<v Speaker 2>I'd just be looking and smiling, you know, yeah, do

0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:50.040
<v Speaker 2>your do your Scandinavian on the fjord in the ski

0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:53.280
<v Speaker 2>is down down the slow. It's uh. The interesting people

0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:55.760
<v Speaker 2>I like. I liked going there. I did too. Did

0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:58.000
<v Speaker 2>you go to Stockholm? I did. There's no waight, I

0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:00.120
<v Speaker 2>haven't been to Stockholm. I've read that. You turned me

0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:04.040
<v Speaker 2>on to the Dragon Tattoo books. Yes, right, and I

0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:05.880
<v Speaker 2>feel like I've been there. I haven't been there. I

0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:06.320
<v Speaker 2>want to go.

0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Stockholm's amazing. They have this museum there. It's a ship

0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:15.720
<v Speaker 1>that overturned in Stockholm Harbor about five hundred years ago

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:17.400
<v Speaker 1>or something like that, and it got preserved in the

0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:20.800
<v Speaker 1>mud and they've dug it all up and they put

0:32:20.840 --> 0:32:24.200
<v Speaker 1>it in a museum. It's an old ship, but it's

0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:27.840
<v Speaker 1>totally freaky. They like the bodies and everything are there too.

0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Like because scandon Evins, they seem to me an eminently

0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:32.520
<v Speaker 1>practical people.

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:35.200
<v Speaker 2>They're like, oh, this is a dead body. Look children,

0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 2>what can we do with it? Book it for a stick.

0:32:38.440 --> 0:32:42.040
<v Speaker 1>It's like, oh my god. And they also have the

0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:44.720
<v Speaker 1>Abbum Museum. If you need something, Yeah, I would like

0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:46.960
<v Speaker 1>to go there. And you know I can do Waterloo

0:32:47.040 --> 0:32:52.560
<v Speaker 1>with them. The greatest hotel perhaps on Earth, I think,

0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:55.200
<v Speaker 1>is the Diplomat Hotel in Stockholm.

0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Stay there, I will. It's unbelievable.

0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:02.000
<v Speaker 1>It's not it's not huge, and it's it's pretty fancy,

0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:05.719
<v Speaker 1>but it's amazing right on the waterfront. It's stock If

0:33:05.720 --> 0:33:08.240
<v Speaker 1>I had my life to live again, i'd probably live

0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:09.920
<v Speaker 1>there in the Diplomat Hotel.

0:33:10.160 --> 0:33:12.720
<v Speaker 2>As a writer, I think I would go there maybe

0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:15.479
<v Speaker 2>July or August, though maybe get some Yeah, I've never

0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:18.880
<v Speaker 2>been there way so is that what they're saying in Scotland.

0:33:18.920 --> 0:33:22.120
<v Speaker 1>But they have this thing in Stockholm is where I

0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:25.400
<v Speaker 1>first come across. They call it Higa and they light

0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:28.760
<v Speaker 1>candles in the morning. I now do it every day.

0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:31.800
<v Speaker 1>People think I'm a deeply religious Catholic or something, but

0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:34.160
<v Speaker 1>I when I have a couple of cap even if

0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:35.800
<v Speaker 1>it's a sunny day, I light a candle in the morning.

0:33:35.840 --> 0:33:38.960
<v Speaker 1>There's something about bright, bright candle light. Not a light,

0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:42.920
<v Speaker 1>but bright candlelight. It kind of like sets you up.

0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Can I make a little confession, Yes, I like candles

0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:49.800
<v Speaker 2>when I write, even in the daytime. There's something, you know.

0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:52.040
<v Speaker 2>And I have my feather quill no, I don't do that.

0:33:52.080 --> 0:33:57.880
<v Speaker 2>But but you know, there's something about the ritual of

0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:02.120
<v Speaker 2>lighting a candle, of having that controlled flame nearby and

0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:03.480
<v Speaker 2>to watch it dance a little bit, and then it

0:34:03.520 --> 0:34:06.720
<v Speaker 2>starts to get a little darker during the religious.

0:34:06.440 --> 0:34:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Spiritual right, Okay, So so you believe in God, but

0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:13.120
<v Speaker 1>you're not prefere to go with any particular flame.

0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I was raised. I was an altar boy. I

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:17.400
<v Speaker 2>was raised Catholic. You know, there was a line in

0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:20.279
<v Speaker 2>French connection to when Jeene Hackman was captured and they

0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:22.520
<v Speaker 2>asked him if he was Catholic and he says retired.

0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:26.279
<v Speaker 2>You know. So yeah, it's still in my heart. But

0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:31.360
<v Speaker 2>the ritual of it, the all of that, it's it's

0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:33.759
<v Speaker 2>more that it's more personal now to me. It's more

0:34:33.880 --> 0:34:37.879
<v Speaker 2>like my own you know, having that spiritual depeche mode

0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Catholic yes, Jesus, Yes, I mean I can't play by

0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 2>your rules, which we should make you a prosest.

0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:58.360
<v Speaker 1>It's a very interesting thing, I think as because atheism,

0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:00.759
<v Speaker 1>which I've always been rather a acted too as a

0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:05.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of like adolescent footstomp of a thing to have

0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:09.400
<v Speaker 1>is I can't I can't do it, you know, I

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:09.920
<v Speaker 1>can't do it.

0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:13.400
<v Speaker 2>It's too it becomes its own form of fundamentalism. It is,

0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:16.640
<v Speaker 2>it is, It's fundamental and it's actual statement. There is

0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:19.200
<v Speaker 2>no god that could be more fundamental in that statement.

0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:22.080
<v Speaker 2>And if anybody's listening who has adopted that as a

0:35:22.080 --> 0:35:26.160
<v Speaker 2>philosophy or religion or anti religion, more power to you.

0:35:26.160 --> 0:35:28.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't judge. Yeah, but I just never

0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:32.520
<v Speaker 2>attracted me to feel living in a void. It attracted me.

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:35.120
<v Speaker 1>I was interested in it when I was younger, but

0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:37.520
<v Speaker 1>I think as you get older, and you know that

0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:41.279
<v Speaker 1>thing C. S. Lewis said about death said, you know,

0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:45.160
<v Speaker 1>death is easy to ignore when it's a horseman two

0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:47.520
<v Speaker 1>valleys away and you can vaguely see it on the hall,

0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:49.799
<v Speaker 1>But when you can hear the hoof beats.

0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:52.520
<v Speaker 2>Gets your attention. Yeah.

0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:56.239
<v Speaker 1>And I think that, I mean I'm paraphrasing, because he

0:35:56.400 --> 0:35:57.319
<v Speaker 1>was far more like.

0:35:57.280 --> 0:35:59.400
<v Speaker 2>The image is beautiful. Yeah, Yeah, and.

0:35:59.800 --> 0:36:03.640
<v Speaker 1>That that was That was what what kind of drew

0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:06.920
<v Speaker 1>me back around and too kind of looking at it.

0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:09.319
<v Speaker 1>Why I ended up doing this podcast. I think it's

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.280
<v Speaker 1>because I wanted to do what how do you cope?

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.319
<v Speaker 2>This is what I like about it, frankly, is first

0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:17.680
<v Speaker 2>of all the fact that it's got no artifice. I

0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:21.480
<v Speaker 2>like the fact that it's just a conversation, but also

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:25.359
<v Speaker 2>that it is something to reflect on, you know. It's

0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:28.839
<v Speaker 2>it's like, what is joy? You know? Where is it?

0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:31.080
<v Speaker 2>What you know? You know? To me, it's kind of

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:35.759
<v Speaker 2>a decision oft times. Yeah, it's also you know, and

0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:37.719
<v Speaker 2>this is my own spirit talking. It's what you give

0:36:37.760 --> 0:36:40.560
<v Speaker 2>to other people. In other words, I get great joy

0:36:40.600 --> 0:36:42.880
<v Speaker 2>out of bringing joy, or trying to bring So you

0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:45.440
<v Speaker 2>don't always succeed. Sometimes you do something very bad here,

0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:49.720
<v Speaker 2>let me do you a favor. Oh my god, I

0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:54.160
<v Speaker 2>wasn't there. It wasn't me. But I do think that

0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 2>that joy is in the small things.

0:36:56.440 --> 0:37:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's connected I think to health, yeah, mental, physical,

0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:05.320
<v Speaker 1>spiritual health. If you have you know, if you're struggling

0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 1>with health of any description, things get a little more difficult.

0:37:09.440 --> 0:37:11.040
<v Speaker 2>I think. Do you meditate? I do.

0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Actually, I am dismissed it as as an indulgence until

0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:20.719
<v Speaker 1>I kind of started doing it a little bit, and

0:37:20.840 --> 0:37:23.120
<v Speaker 1>I get a lot from it. I don't have anything

0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:27.400
<v Speaker 1>particularly formal to practice it. I just set you know,

0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:28.960
<v Speaker 1>I've set a timer on my phone.

0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:32.920
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, there was a book I read thirty years ago,

0:37:32.960 --> 0:37:36.359
<v Speaker 2>I guess by John cabot Zin. Have you heard of him? No,

0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:38.120
<v Speaker 2>A book is called Wherever You Go, There you Are.

0:37:38.719 --> 0:37:41.160
<v Speaker 2>I've heard that phrase before. Yeah, he wrote a book

0:37:41.160 --> 0:37:43.400
<v Speaker 2>and it's and it's really how to how to meditate,

0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 2>And it's sort of like as Joseph Campbell was to mythology.

0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:51.480
<v Speaker 2>This book is about meditation. And I thought to myself,

0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:55.880
<v Speaker 2>you know it isn't wasted time, No, it's it actually

0:37:55.880 --> 0:37:59.239
<v Speaker 2>makes me feel better, It makes me more efficient at

0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:01.600
<v Speaker 2>other things. Although the important thing is not to have

0:38:01.640 --> 0:38:03.000
<v Speaker 2>a goal, right.

0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:05.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's probably why I dismissed it when I

0:38:06.000 --> 0:38:10.799
<v Speaker 1>was younger, because up until I think, probably round about

0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:14.000
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic or just before, everything in my life was

0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:18.840
<v Speaker 1>goal oriented, you know, you know, a result had to

0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:22.080
<v Speaker 1>be connected in some way to just about every every movement,

0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:26.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, the like. And I think that that, particularly

0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:28.120
<v Speaker 1>in career, or you said.

0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Comes from can I ask you don't mind me interviewing

0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:31.480
<v Speaker 2>a little bit? Where does that? Where? Where does that

0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:33.920
<v Speaker 2>come from? In your life? Do you think that? I

0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 2>think you achiever? I think from me.

0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 1>For me, it comes from uh, it comes from financial difficulty.

0:38:43.160 --> 0:38:45.879
<v Speaker 1>Even as young come all yeah, I think I think

0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:47.600
<v Speaker 1>it comes from So I think most things have come

0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:49.640
<v Speaker 1>from the foundations. If a building's going to top, it

0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:52.160
<v Speaker 1>comes to the topples from from there, doesn't it.

0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:55.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean? And I what about you? Where does it

0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:57.680
<v Speaker 2>come from from? You? Do? I was? I was your upbringing.

0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:00.560
<v Speaker 2>It was kind of it was not financially, but it

0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:03.480
<v Speaker 2>was a very you know, I had a very very

0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:08.799
<v Speaker 2>unhappy childhood in terms of my father, right, and was

0:39:08.840 --> 0:39:12.920
<v Speaker 2>he he drunk that old thing. He probably was in hindsight,

0:39:14.239 --> 0:39:17.200
<v Speaker 2>but abusive, you know, not sexually, but you know a

0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:20.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of you know, slapping, beating, val rating, Hey, your

0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:22.200
<v Speaker 2>name is fuck up today? You know that kind of stuff.

0:39:22.719 --> 0:39:25.719
<v Speaker 2>And so what that does is that makes you not

0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:29.200
<v Speaker 2>try not to fuck up, right, you know what I mean.

0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:31.560
<v Speaker 2>So that out of that forms a sort of a

0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:35.680
<v Speaker 2>work ethic, a defensive posture. You know. I've thought about

0:39:35.680 --> 0:39:38.120
<v Speaker 2>this a great deal. I haven't done therapy about it,

0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:42.600
<v Speaker 2>but in hindsight, I can see that beginning that I had,

0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:45.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, I created a world for myself where I

0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:48.080
<v Speaker 2>would be accountable and win. I understand that.

0:39:48.280 --> 0:39:50.560
<v Speaker 1>I think for me, it was more about the avoidance

0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:55.000
<v Speaker 1>of discomfort and pain, and maybe even embarrassment. I remember

0:39:56.360 --> 0:39:59.759
<v Speaker 1>when I was about six or seven years old, haven't

0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:02.560
<v Speaker 1>gone the dentist. And I remember that having this thought, thinking,

0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:07.480
<v Speaker 1>if I can somehow get on TV, I won't have

0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:10.839
<v Speaker 1>to go to the dentist. I found out later that

0:40:10.920 --> 0:40:15.120
<v Speaker 1>you go to the dentist much more. I spent most

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:17.799
<v Speaker 1>of my fucking life the dentist. But it was the

0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:21.279
<v Speaker 1>avoidance of pain and fear and discomfort. And which is

0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:24.600
<v Speaker 1>interesting because if you look at the media now, it's

0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:27.160
<v Speaker 1>not the same as even the television that we inhabited.

0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:27.560
<v Speaker 2>It's funny.

0:40:27.560 --> 0:40:29.399
<v Speaker 1>I was talking to Seth Meyers last night. We're talking

0:40:29.440 --> 0:40:33.080
<v Speaker 1>about how much stuff had changed in late night. When

0:40:33.280 --> 0:40:35.080
<v Speaker 1>you and I were doing late night television, it was

0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:37.080
<v Speaker 1>still television. I mean, it was coming to the end

0:40:37.120 --> 0:40:40.440
<v Speaker 1>of it, but it doesn't really exist in that form anymore.

0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:45.520
<v Speaker 1>What I see now is the I call it the

0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:50.480
<v Speaker 1>fear industrial complex. That it is like they are selling

0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:53.520
<v Speaker 1>and you're selling engagements in the form of clicks, right, right,

0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.759
<v Speaker 1>So what will you click on? You click on what

0:40:57.760 --> 0:41:01.440
<v Speaker 1>you're afraid of? You know, to to remain safe, I

0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:04.000
<v Speaker 1>must have this information, say what, yeah, look at this

0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:07.279
<v Speaker 1>is that you know that what I mean, after the

0:41:07.280 --> 0:41:10.480
<v Speaker 1>bridge thing in Baltimore, I saw this was like, I

0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:13.839
<v Speaker 1>don't know where I was, on some tabloid thing it said,

0:41:13.880 --> 0:41:16.880
<v Speaker 1>you know a list of twenty bridges in America that

0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:19.799
<v Speaker 1>this could you know, look out for these bridges, And

0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:23.160
<v Speaker 1>I go, are you your fucking mind? The chances of

0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:27.160
<v Speaker 1>this happen and once are astronomical, right, you know the chaps.

0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:30.400
<v Speaker 2>It's so it's so fear. But I'm not saying it

0:41:30.440 --> 0:41:31.080
<v Speaker 2>can't happen again.

0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:35.040
<v Speaker 1>It might happen again, but it probably won't, right, And

0:41:35.960 --> 0:41:38.840
<v Speaker 1>that's and it was weird that it happened in the

0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:42.880
<v Speaker 1>first place. And then if you can't explain the phenomenon,

0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:45.759
<v Speaker 1>then you invent a conspiracy to explain the phenomenon. And

0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:48.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's like, oh, the sun is going away?

0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:50.960
<v Speaker 1>What happened right today? This very day we were talking,

0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:53.719
<v Speaker 1>the eclipse is happening. And it's so weird to me

0:41:53.760 --> 0:41:58.399
<v Speaker 1>that when people, particularly there's two times when I hear

0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:00.600
<v Speaker 1>conspiracy theorists and then I go, I think this is

0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:04.040
<v Speaker 1>an emotional problem for you, because because when I hear

0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:07.880
<v Speaker 1>people talking about the Hollywood community, I go, first of all,

0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:10.840
<v Speaker 1>you show me where the fucking community is in Hollywood.

0:42:10.800 --> 0:42:13.839
<v Speaker 1>I went in Hollywood for twenty five years. Like everybody

0:42:14.120 --> 0:42:16.560
<v Speaker 1>is there's no fucking community talk about it. Actually more

0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:19.880
<v Speaker 1>you're right, that's just a pack a box of crabs

0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:21.040
<v Speaker 1>trying to destroy each other.

0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:21.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:23.960
<v Speaker 1>And then the other thing, when you talk about government

0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:27.680
<v Speaker 1>conspiracy and you go, have you met anyone in government.

0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:31.320
<v Speaker 2>The thickest pic shit, they're like, I mean, I am shocked.

0:42:31.400 --> 0:42:34.160
<v Speaker 1>And you go to Washington and you meet people who

0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:36.759
<v Speaker 1>are like working in the running of this country, you go,

0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:37.440
<v Speaker 1>oh my.

0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:39.800
<v Speaker 2>God, I wouldn't trust you to walk my fucking dog.

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:44.080
<v Speaker 2>That's right, It's unbelievable. That's why John le Carrey said

0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:49.240
<v Speaker 2>that the government conspiracies are generally a cover up. Sure,

0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:53.040
<v Speaker 2>because they're because they fucked up. Look what we did. Yeah, yeah,

0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:54.359
<v Speaker 2>I think that's right.

0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:57.600
<v Speaker 1>I mean, but it's it's the whole thing about you know,

0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:02.160
<v Speaker 1>like people who are flat earthers, like you.

0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:05.680
<v Speaker 2>Don't really can you really believe that? Is that a thing?

0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:09.520
<v Speaker 1>And I think it's an emotional rejection of some kind.

0:43:09.560 --> 0:43:12.480
<v Speaker 1>I think it's connected to emotionality. I don't think it's

0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:14.040
<v Speaker 1>about stupidity or anything.

0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:16.200
<v Speaker 2>That's why I think and I'll say it again, That's

0:43:16.200 --> 0:43:19.480
<v Speaker 2>why this forum that you've created here on this podcast

0:43:19.760 --> 0:43:23.600
<v Speaker 2>is one that's important now because it explores not just

0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:25.800
<v Speaker 2>something that's sort of on the positive side of things,

0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:28.319
<v Speaker 2>but it's on It's this kind of thing that's going

0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:31.160
<v Speaker 2>to maybe make a stop a minute and say, you know,

0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:34.839
<v Speaker 2>what's good, what's what is joyful? How can I, uh

0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:38.200
<v Speaker 2>not create the opposite of joy in people? Where can

0:43:38.239 --> 0:43:41.360
<v Speaker 2>we connect? And I think that is something you've accomplished

0:43:41.360 --> 0:43:41.560
<v Speaker 2>with this.

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:44.920
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's a lovely idea, Tom, and very

0:43:44.960 --> 0:43:47.600
<v Speaker 1>supportive of you and I And I'm not trying to

0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:52.320
<v Speaker 1>reject your hypothesis by it, but I completely reject you

0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:59.080
<v Speaker 1>what no, I mean, it's it sounds loftier then well

0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:02.920
<v Speaker 1>I have in mind for this, which is conversation. But

0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:07.120
<v Speaker 1>even as I say that, I think the actual conversation

0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:09.280
<v Speaker 1>without an agenda is quite a lofty goal.

0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Because it's dangerous.

0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:13.200
<v Speaker 1>I think because the consequences of speaking freely right now

0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:16.600
<v Speaker 1>about anything you might an opinion you may not have formed.

0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:20.680
<v Speaker 1>See That's why I understand that, Like I used to

0:44:20.760 --> 0:44:23.520
<v Speaker 1>feel like I could speak about stuff that I wasn't

0:44:23.560 --> 0:44:25.680
<v Speaker 1>sure about, Like I'm not sure about this.

0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's this maybe it's that.

0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:29.919
<v Speaker 1>But if you say maybe it's this, that's you can

0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:32.600
<v Speaker 1>cut out that little piece where you say maybe it's this,

0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:35.719
<v Speaker 1>and then people you're definitely saying that's the thing, and

0:44:35.840 --> 0:44:37.680
<v Speaker 1>all you were doing was thinking out well, you can't

0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:38.720
<v Speaker 1>think outlet it anymore.

0:44:39.000 --> 0:44:42.839
<v Speaker 2>I remember one time in the writer's room you said

0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:46.280
<v Speaker 2>something again i'll paraphrase, there was somebody who was in trouble,

0:44:46.360 --> 0:44:48.359
<v Speaker 2>like the cancel culture kind of thing. Somebody had said

0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:50.320
<v Speaker 2>something on a hot mic and all that. Yeah, and

0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:53.319
<v Speaker 2>I really took to heart what you said. You said,

0:44:53.360 --> 0:44:57.239
<v Speaker 2>you know what, we have the advantage of being recorded,

0:44:57.480 --> 0:44:59.719
<v Speaker 2>we can edit afterward. That's true.

0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:02.560
<v Speaker 1>And you got to give fair play to somebody who is,

0:45:02.920 --> 0:45:05.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, just free wheeling and oops.

0:45:05.280 --> 0:45:07.920
<v Speaker 2>You know. Yeah, Now if the person you know is

0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:11.520
<v Speaker 2>revealing something truly ugly about what they think or believe things,

0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:12.400
<v Speaker 2>that's a different story.

0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:16.200
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, but I mean the idea of and this

0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:18.600
<v Speaker 1>is the interesting thing I think about writing as well,

0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:20.200
<v Speaker 1>because I want to talk to you about the book,

0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:22.280
<v Speaker 1>which is what I wanted to talk to you about anyway,

0:45:22.320 --> 0:45:23.920
<v Speaker 1>But of course we've ended up talking about many and

0:45:23.960 --> 0:45:27.120
<v Speaker 1>other things. There's stuff that I wrote down jokes that

0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:30.800
<v Speaker 1>I've made, or or or beliefs that I put into

0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:33.640
<v Speaker 1>books that I wrote, you know, fifteen years ago that

0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:36.320
<v Speaker 1>I look at it now and going, I don't.

0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Believe that anymore. Yeah, and good for you. Yeah.

0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:44.640
<v Speaker 1>But the thing is, in the world of documentation, you

0:45:44.960 --> 0:45:48.160
<v Speaker 1>will always believe that. That's quite an interesting thing. It's

0:45:48.239 --> 0:45:50.680
<v Speaker 1>like I always think about Martin Luther. If he had

0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:54.600
<v Speaker 1>stopped before he went on the anti Semitic branch, it

0:45:54.680 --> 0:45:57.080
<v Speaker 1>really would have helped, just like to say, a great deal,

0:45:57.440 --> 0:45:58.120
<v Speaker 1>like just.

0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Had me to this, going right to that. If you stopped,

0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:05.640
<v Speaker 2>there you go, but there you go. No, talk to

0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:09.359
<v Speaker 2>me about the new book. The new book is called

0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:13.880
<v Speaker 2>The Accidental Joe. Right, it's about coffee. How did you know? No,

0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:17.560
<v Speaker 2>joe being the slang term in this in the trade

0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:21.200
<v Speaker 2>for a spy, spy who's being run by handlers.

0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:24.440
<v Speaker 1>And uh so you're going, that's why you mentioned the

0:46:24.480 --> 0:46:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Lacari You've gone spy.

0:46:25.760 --> 0:46:28.480
<v Speaker 2>No, oh, yeah, I've got you know what. Here's the

0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:31.520
<v Speaker 2>idea that I had and I told I told Nancy,

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:35.319
<v Speaker 2>have we talked about the stage? I said to her,

0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I have an idea. It came to me on a

0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:39.520
<v Speaker 2>run and I kind of remembered it. Yeah, it's an

0:46:39.520 --> 0:46:42.319
<v Speaker 2>elevator pitch that only takes one floor. And that is

0:46:42.400 --> 0:46:45.319
<v Speaker 2>what if Anthony Bourdain had been using his show to

0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:48.080
<v Speaker 2>spy for the c I Ah, okay, and that's the book.

0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:51.319
<v Speaker 2>That's good. Yeah, so uh that's the setup. And so

0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:53.239
<v Speaker 2>what we've got is oh my god. And then you

0:46:53.360 --> 0:46:58.200
<v Speaker 2>put because Anthony Bourdin. Yeah, so there it went. And

0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:02.799
<v Speaker 2>and you know the book, it's not by Anthony. I

0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:09.960
<v Speaker 2>created Sebastian Pike, celebrity chef bod Yeah, yeah, what's the

0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:14.759
<v Speaker 2>pop tringlespros? But I created this world and there's a

0:47:14.840 --> 0:47:17.759
<v Speaker 2>romance element in it, and also there's a sort of

0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:20.560
<v Speaker 2>an appeal to see how these shows get made right,

0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:22.960
<v Speaker 2>you know. So it's spying and it's torture and it's

0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:26.000
<v Speaker 2>gunshots and and it's also how you make uh, you.

0:47:25.920 --> 0:47:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Know, flumbay flombay and now you make a crocomb busch. Wow,

0:47:30.080 --> 0:47:30.959
<v Speaker 1>a crokum bush.

0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:34.360
<v Speaker 2>What's a k oh? It's a street in a tower

0:47:34.920 --> 0:47:35.680
<v Speaker 2>crocomb busch.

0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:38.600
<v Speaker 1>I was thinking it was a mouth, like a crocodile

0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:39.160
<v Speaker 1>in your mouth.

0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:43.480
<v Speaker 2>Hey wait a minute, I think I've got a sequel.

0:47:44.239 --> 0:47:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Crocodile in your mouth. But the book, Uh, it's sold

0:47:48.560 --> 0:47:51.960
<v Speaker 2>in a weekend, right. Uh. And I had offers from

0:47:52.000 --> 0:47:55.719
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood and I have made a deal. Really you sold

0:47:55.719 --> 0:48:00.200
<v Speaker 2>the rights to you surprised me? Yeah, to sonyh Yeah.

0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:05.480
<v Speaker 2>There's a fabulous producing team Seth Gordon and Julia Gunn.

0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:07.720
<v Speaker 2>They have a I love the title of their production studio.

0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:10.520
<v Speaker 2>It's called Exhibit a nice. Uh. And they do a

0:48:10.520 --> 0:48:13.160
<v Speaker 2>show on Netflix called The Night Agent. You've seen that.

0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:15.880
<v Speaker 2>It's really great. You should catch it.

0:48:16.120 --> 0:48:17.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking of The Night Manager. But that's not the

0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:19.000
<v Speaker 1>same that's not the same thing.

0:48:19.000 --> 0:48:21.319
<v Speaker 2>But this is this is about an FBI agent who

0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:23.879
<v Speaker 2>works in the White House and the conspiracy thing very right.

0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:27.680
<v Speaker 2>But we we of course everything was on zoom.

0:48:28.000 --> 0:48:28.120
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:30.360
<v Speaker 2>We had our Zoom meeting and it was like I

0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:33.160
<v Speaker 2>had such a connection with them. You know. It's the

0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:38.359
<v Speaker 2>it's the two big words, big money. No, the two

0:48:38.400 --> 0:48:43.960
<v Speaker 2>big words are shared point of view. Except yeah, shared too.

0:48:45.840 --> 0:48:48.280
<v Speaker 2>I need to edit. Yeah, yeah, that's your first draft.

0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:49.840
<v Speaker 2>You get me on a hot mic, you know, and

0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:50.719
<v Speaker 2>then come out.

0:48:51.040 --> 0:48:54.720
<v Speaker 1>This is a great darts commentator in Brettona Sports Commentate

0:48:54.880 --> 0:48:57.719
<v Speaker 1>or Breton famously said at the end of it, because

0:48:57.760 --> 0:48:58.600
<v Speaker 1>they watched darts.

0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:00.480
<v Speaker 2>I watched it. I was in I was in London

0:49:01.000 --> 0:49:02.840
<v Speaker 2>not long ago, and watch and they call it sport.

0:49:02.920 --> 0:49:07.680
<v Speaker 1>It's like, you know, overweight alcoholic men throwing tiny little arrows. Yes,

0:49:08.040 --> 0:49:10.880
<v Speaker 1>but he said that there was some guy wanted and

0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:13.000
<v Speaker 1>he said there's only one word.

0:49:12.760 --> 0:49:20.080
<v Speaker 2>For that, magic darts, which great greatly. Yeah, Tom, you

0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:23.160
<v Speaker 2>are of course a joy. It's great, it's great to

0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:25.440
<v Speaker 2>talk to you and great to catch up. Let's do

0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:26.040
<v Speaker 2>it again soon.

0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:28.279
<v Speaker 1>I would love to Good luck with the accidental joke,

0:49:28.320 --> 0:49:32.560
<v Speaker 1>which I will read on purpose almost immediately.

0:49:32.800 --> 0:49:33.160
<v Speaker 2>Thank you,