Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the bott Left Sets podcast.
Speaker 1: My guest today is my good friend and ski buddy
Speaker 1: Andy Summers, who's an agent at a p A. He
Speaker 1: represents such acts as social distortion. Brian Wilson, the Circle jerks, Andy,
Speaker 1: Good to have you here. Happy to be here. Okay.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have no idea what an agent
Speaker 1: in the music business does. What do they do? Well?
Speaker 1: It kind of changed. I mean, traditionally, you know, the
Speaker 1: agent was an employment agent for people who entertained. You know,
Speaker 1: find me a job, guy with a guitar, guy with
Speaker 1: a trumpet, find me a job. That was traditionally what
Speaker 1: agents did. As musicians became more artists, entrepreneurial, etcetera, managers,
Speaker 1: there's a lot more going on than just find a job.
Speaker 1: Agents position can change. I mean, the basic nuts and
Speaker 1: bolts of it is setting up gigs, negotiating the deals, etcetera. Um,
Speaker 1: But the more to it now is, you know, where
Speaker 1: do we play? Why do we play here? Um? Are
Speaker 1: we supporting a record? Are we just out? Hey, I
Speaker 1: gotta make a living. Um? There's all sorts of different
Speaker 1: reasons that you know that an age, what what an
Speaker 1: agent does okay, but an agent, unlike in the movie business. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's an element of career direction, but it's focused primarily
Speaker 1: on live gigs, focused on live and you know, different
Speaker 1: agents have different relationships with their artists, with their managers,
Speaker 1: with the managers of the artists, or some artists don't
Speaker 1: have managers. So you know, in the case of some bands,
Speaker 1: it's just me. You know, we're in the music, we're
Speaker 1: in the business together. So you obviously will provide a
Speaker 1: lot more vision in that situation than you do is
Speaker 1: opposed to just finding gigs and hopefully good. Okay, so
Speaker 1: you've been doing this for how long? I started? In reality?
Speaker 1: This current things started in like the mid eighties. Well,
Speaker 1: that begs a question, the current thing? What was the thing? Well,
Speaker 1: I was at the in the late seventies. I was
Speaker 1: at the William Morris mill Room. Okay, legendarily we heard
Speaker 1: back in that era. I mean David Geffin worked there. Whatever,
Speaker 1: How did you get that gig? My cousin worked in
Speaker 1: the personnel department and I had gotten out of college.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be in music or tell, I wanted
Speaker 1: to be in the entertainment business, but instead I was
Speaker 1: working at a coffee factory in Munichi, New Jersey. Where
Speaker 1: even is that UM Route seventeen Route four around there?
Speaker 1: It's uh, Hackensack. Let's go back before I know, but
Speaker 1: my audience doesn't know where you from. Originally, I'm originally
Speaker 1: from Bronx, New York, UM until I was about nine
Speaker 1: or ten, and then I'm from Danbury, Connecticut. So you're
Speaker 1: in Danbury, Connecticut. To what degree are you infected by music? Um? Initially,
Speaker 1: my older cousin would play met this is still back
Speaker 1: in the Bronx and mostly doop stuff, and you know,
Speaker 1: we listen to radio, etcetera. And you know, I can
Speaker 1: remember listening to the duop stuff but not knowing who
Speaker 1: any of the names of the acts were. And but
Speaker 1: I remember hearing Buddy Holly and there was something appealing
Speaker 1: to me. I didn't think much of it, and then
Speaker 1: I moved on because I was more about, you know,
Speaker 1: watching baseball anyway, Um in Connecticut, you know, fifth grade,
Speaker 1: the Beatles and that's it was all over for me.
Speaker 1: And did you grow your hair along? Uh? Probably not
Speaker 1: till about would I have the permission to have done
Speaker 1: that till about like sixties six sixty seven, And uh,
Speaker 1: you know. But I did go out to Tom McCann
Speaker 1: and get a pair of like Cuban heell beetle boots,
Speaker 1: you know, so I would alternate those between those and
Speaker 1: Legions penny loafers, you know, because that was what you
Speaker 1: did in Connecticut. Oh absolutely, But you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: have the Beatles boots. But I remember convincing my mother
Speaker 1: that I could wear desert boots to the school dance.
Speaker 1: But desert boots were the other shoes you wore when
Speaker 1: you weren't wearing your penny loafers exactly. Remember the Scotch
Speaker 1: Green penny loafers. I went to school with Betsy Bass.
Speaker 1: It was Bass Regions. She totally cracked me up. I
Speaker 1: think she's still involved in the company. So are you
Speaker 1: a big record collector at that time? Not yet, because
Speaker 1: records were too expensive and and you know, so you
Speaker 1: know a couple of times a month, you know, you
Speaker 1: go to Kaldor and you go buy the records. You're right, right,
Speaker 1: Caldor was a discount place. It was sort of upscale
Speaker 1: compared to like Tops. It was like the peak of
Speaker 1: the discount place. Yeah, so we'd buy record I'd buy
Speaker 1: an album here and there, and you know, but it
Speaker 1: was mostly you know, I could buy forty five, but
Speaker 1: I was listening to the radio. I wouldn't start probably,
Speaker 1: you know, around sixty was when albums became real important
Speaker 1: for me to own and like realized it's something to
Speaker 1: collect and it's it's it's when maybe that's when you
Speaker 1: realize when you had a record, you don't put your
Speaker 1: fingers on it, and that and the paper that comes
Speaker 1: in the in the cardboard cover, you don't throw that
Speaker 1: out anymore. Absolutely, you're totally cracking me up, especially when
Speaker 1: you have girlfriends and you're afraid they're gonna put their
Speaker 1: fingers on the vinyl. That was one of the great things.
Speaker 1: You just held the edge and flip it over. So uh, Now,
Speaker 1: if you're in Danbury, what stations are you listening to?
Speaker 1: Um w d R C from Hartford. You know when
Speaker 1: when FM started, Scott Muni on from w ABC, moved
Speaker 1: over to w o R and all of a sudden FM,
Speaker 1: which was only classic gold music rock station, and then
Speaker 1: w n WFM. But earlier than that, you know w
Speaker 1: m C A and w A b C. I mean,
Speaker 1: cousin Brucey, I listened to w d R C as
Speaker 1: well as those other things. And also sometimes it was
Speaker 1: W A v Z out of New Haven and then
Speaker 1: you could also get the stations from Long Island as time.
Speaker 1: When I okay, so you graduate from high school and
Speaker 1: what happened? Um, head off to Elmira College up state
Speaker 1: New York. We're kind of kind of just west of Binghamton.
Speaker 1: Oh you know, and just before you get to Horseheads?
Speaker 1: How far Corning right? How far would it be from
Speaker 1: there to New York City? Four hours? Okay, So when
Speaker 1: you're in high school, you're going to gigs. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: we would take the train from Brewster, New York and
Speaker 1: go see uh, you know Poco with Linda ron Staton,
Speaker 1: Manhattan Transfer opening at the Fillmore East. Um, a lot
Speaker 1: of Connecticut gigs. I mean the m C five played
Speaker 1: the Palace Theater in Danbury. The movie theater went to that. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think what school it was in. Uh,
Speaker 1: either not West Stanford, Stanford High there they would put
Speaker 1: out they would have shows. I saw Peter Frampton there,
Speaker 1: I saw that. I saw the Birds there. I remember
Speaker 1: it's Staples I saw, which is Westport, which one time
Speaker 1: over from where I grew up. I know Staples High.
Speaker 1: I got. I got beat up by some guys from there,
Speaker 1: coming home from a Danbury High basketball game. It's another
Speaker 1: story another time. It's not music business related, but I
Speaker 1: know Staples. Wait, you're how did you get beaten up?
Speaker 1: I was just walking home with Danbury High had won
Speaker 1: the game, and I'm walking home because I lived about
Speaker 1: half a mile from Danbury High. So we're walking home
Speaker 1: and this car just drives up. I'm walking home with
Speaker 1: my friend who lived across the street, and these guys
Speaker 1: just hop out of the car. I tell my friend
Speaker 1: just start running, and they got me and they beat
Speaker 1: the crap out of me. Then, you know, then they left.
Speaker 1: Then I got up and I walked home. Were bedraggled
Speaker 1: with your parents. You know what It's like. I can
Speaker 1: handle pain pretty well, you know. You know they saw that.
Speaker 1: I you know, I was cut up a little bit,
Speaker 1: and you know, I got a had. These guys from
Speaker 1: Staples they beat the crap out of me, you know,
Speaker 1: and that was that. No flood of revenge. Well what
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? Get on Roots seven and drive
Speaker 1: down to Stanford. Okay, so, uh you got to Elmira.
Speaker 1: Do they have concerts at Elmira. They did first one
Speaker 1: when I was a freshman was the Elves. Ronny James
Speaker 1: Dio was the lead singer and he was from somewhere
Speaker 1: in upstate New York. Yeah, I think so. I think
Speaker 1: the band is from up there, Rochester or something like that.
Speaker 1: How were they? Um, it's all right, okay, it wasn't
Speaker 1: like you said there was. There was no life change there. Okay.
Speaker 1: So who else played when you were in colle um? Oh,
Speaker 1: we had a great show. It was either Freshman Mountain,
Speaker 1: John Mayle and Peter Frampton opening and that this was
Speaker 1: like right after Frampton's camel had come out. So me
Speaker 1: and my friends were nuts for Peter Frampton and paying him.
Speaker 1: The school paid him five hundred bucks. Right. Um, we
Speaker 1: went back that we got to meet him. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like we you know, we we got so into
Speaker 1: Peter Frampton that we also knew all about the Herd,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, obviously humble Pie now my
Speaker 1: one of my few claims to fame. I was there
Speaker 1: when Roger Marri said his sixty one. But I was
Speaker 1: also at the Fillmore East when Frampton was still in
Speaker 1: a Humble Pie and then recorded Rocking and Fillmore. That's big.
Speaker 1: That's big in any event. Any did you travel to
Speaker 1: other colleges to Bingham to Oh yeah, we I remember
Speaker 1: going to see the Kinks at Sunny Binghamton. I saw
Speaker 1: Poco there. We'd go up to Ithaca a lot, so
Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder at Bailey Hall, cornell Um Elton john on
Speaker 1: the on his first tour after Davy Johnson joined the
Speaker 1: band Um the Beach Boys and that and that was
Speaker 1: like a great period to see the Beach Boys live.
Speaker 1: I saw him in to Haven Colinson. You know, this
Speaker 1: was you know, you know, I mean, Brian Wilson wasn't there,
Speaker 1: but Blondie Chaplin was and Dennis Wilson was there and
Speaker 1: you know, and and it was that was it was
Speaker 1: just a great set list, right and then they put
Speaker 1: out the album Beach Boys in concerts. Now. If you
Speaker 1: talk to our friend Don Strassburgh was a promoter in Denver,
Speaker 1: he did his first game. He went to a gig.
Speaker 1: He said, I want to do this. Okay, were you
Speaker 1: going to gigs and saying, hey, I want to do this.
Speaker 1: I want to be in the live business, not necessarily
Speaker 1: you know what I think I think underneath it all
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a guitar player. I want, really,
Speaker 1: I want. I played good enough to be an agent. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, you know it's like you know, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think you have even said this too. You know, at
Speaker 1: one point you want to be Mickey Mantle, but then
Speaker 1: but then all of a sudden, no, I want to
Speaker 1: be George Harrison. Absolutely, I remember vividly. You got it
Speaker 1: exactly right for that period. But I remember, and this
Speaker 1: guy tracked me down. I hadn't seen him in forty years,
Speaker 1: my good friend Mark. He would play and I was
Speaker 1: there with my guitar one day and he was there
Speaker 1: with his guitar and he goes, okay, now let's change keys.
Speaker 1: And I said, I'm out. I was not good enough
Speaker 1: to do that. But you were actually that good? No,
Speaker 1: not at all. Okay, but did were you ever in bands? Yes,
Speaker 1: in college, in high school. Um, in high school, if
Speaker 1: you got to be in a band, if you had
Speaker 1: an instrument, right, and uh, even if you could play
Speaker 1: it or not. And so I actually joined a band
Speaker 1: with some friends, you know, mostly the friends from Hebrew school.
Speaker 1: And uh, we started a band. And the guy who
Speaker 1: couldn't play an instrument, he got to be the lead singer.
Speaker 1: And I wasn't that good a guitarist. But I had
Speaker 1: a guitar. What um, it was a Harmony Rocket three,
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot I had. I had an amplifier,
Speaker 1: a really good amplifier. He was a Fender Deluxe Reaver,
Speaker 1: like back in the day, twelve inch with Reaver, which
Speaker 1: is basically my amp. Now not that same man, but
Speaker 1: it's a reissue of it. You know that one. It's
Speaker 1: long gone. But any rate, we started this band and
Speaker 1: one of the guys, well, I'm trying to think how
Speaker 1: it happened that I ended up being the bass player,
Speaker 1: because I ended up being the bass play because I
Speaker 1: wasn't a good guitar guitarist, and that's you know, you
Speaker 1: become the bass player. Well, I don't know all these
Speaker 1: super bass players they played basses with tho frets, Well
Speaker 1: those those are real musicians. I mean, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of bands out there where the bass player is just
Speaker 1: their friend as opposed to a musicians. Yeah, but then
Speaker 1: there's a lot you know, because in my mind, the
Speaker 1: backbone to any great song is how good a bass
Speaker 1: player do you have? And how tasteful does the bass
Speaker 1: player play? More than the drummer. They're locked they need
Speaker 1: to be locked in. Okay. So you graduate from college
Speaker 1: and you move where, Um to Hackensack, New Jersey. Why Hackensack,
Speaker 1: New Jersey? Because I got a job at the coffee factory,
Speaker 1: and that's something you applied for. It's hard to get
Speaker 1: a job when you get out of I know, I know,
Speaker 1: but I don't say, oh, I'm gonna look for a
Speaker 1: job at Hackenson, you know what. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: make money and get started. How did you actually get
Speaker 1: the job? Were they recruiting on campus or something? Um?
Speaker 1: I think I saw an ad and I applied for it.
Speaker 1: I knew it was like who's been to the assistant
Speaker 1: to the factories? The manager there in the packaging department. Um,
Speaker 1: I'd come home smelling like roasted coffee every night. It
Speaker 1: was a place called Wexlaer Coffee where they had their
Speaker 1: own brand, but they also packaged Dunkin Donuts coffee. You know,
Speaker 1: it was same coffee, just different thing. Um. So I
Speaker 1: was literally there for about maybe six weeks when I
Speaker 1: get the call that I got an interview at William Morris. Um,
Speaker 1: what was your cousin doing that he could get you
Speaker 1: the interview her, and she was she was the assistant
Speaker 1: to the head of personnel. And was she a close cousin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all grew up on the same block in the Bronx.
Speaker 1: So I got the interview. I mean obviously she kept putting,
Speaker 1: you know, my resume on the top of the pile.
Speaker 1: So when it was time for them to high air
Speaker 1: and I got the job. So I quit the coffee factory.
Speaker 1: I think they saw it coming. They knew that this
Speaker 1: was a placeholder for gathering some income. And so I
Speaker 1: was at the in the mail room. And when you
Speaker 1: moved to New York City, uh not for a year.
Speaker 1: I I literally just took the bus in from New
Speaker 1: Jersey because I had a year lease on the apartment
Speaker 1: in Hackensack, and worked my way into the music department.
Speaker 1: Became a little bit slower for those people. Okay, you're
Speaker 1: in the mail room. What do you actually do in
Speaker 1: the mail room? You deliver mail, sort the mail, make copies. Um,
Speaker 1: you sit on the reception desk when the receptionist is
Speaker 1: uh is that lunch? Um? You run errands. So when
Speaker 1: you're there, how many people are in the mail room,
Speaker 1: Probably about eight to ten trainees at any given time.
Speaker 1: And were any of them women? No, not in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy nine, no, different totally. Okay. How many of those
Speaker 1: people make it up the ladder and how many people
Speaker 1: wash out? Um? Probably about sixties sevent make it up
Speaker 1: the ladder to an assistant. And I don't know how
Speaker 1: it works now at those companies and I'm removed from it.
Speaker 1: But you know, you'd become an assistant to an agent.
Speaker 1: Let's say we're in the mail room. How long you're
Speaker 1: in the mail room before you stop doing that? For
Speaker 1: me it was little over a year, okay. And are
Speaker 1: you looking for opportunities or do they find the opportunities
Speaker 1: for you? You make friends? At that time I was
Speaker 1: making friends with you know, the agents upstairs and the
Speaker 1: assistance upstairs. They knew that my target was mused um.
Speaker 1: And then when the spot opened, I got it. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're an assistant there um, there's rules
Speaker 1: to follow, you know, just it's a corporate structure there um,
Speaker 1: which I don't fit in with very well. And you know,
Speaker 1: as as the department evolved, all of a sudden, somebody's
Speaker 1: in charge of the department. That's like that gets me, um,
Speaker 1: your friend and mine, Wayne Forte, he was in charge
Speaker 1: of the department. He was the head of the department
Speaker 1: during a time when like I was really developing my skills.
Speaker 1: I mean we were we were out every night, all
Speaker 1: the assistants. We're out every night, or at Rahs, Max's, CBGBs,
Speaker 1: the mud club at like where the headliner comes on
Speaker 1: at one thirty to two o'clock in the morning. And
Speaker 1: you got to be at work what time, by ten,
Speaker 1: But if you're smart, you're there at your desk by
Speaker 1: thirty nine, you know. And you know, so having done that,
Speaker 1: you know, you also start getting itchy. So I ended
Speaker 1: up finding a band to manage um to hone my
Speaker 1: skills with. And you know that's totally not part of
Speaker 1: the rules. But and also for these guys in this
Speaker 1: band who have who are still to this day very
Speaker 1: close friends of mine, you know, they trusted in me
Speaker 1: um and I didn't know ship. I mean I literally
Speaker 1: they were guinea pigs, you know, but they had nobody else.
Speaker 1: I just loved them. I thought they were really good.
Speaker 1: Just go back for a second. When you're out every night,
Speaker 1: are you going to see the company's bands or are
Speaker 1: you looking for new talent to sign a little of both,
Speaker 1: not really looking on behalf of the I was. I
Speaker 1: was typing contract so all day I was answering phones. Um,
Speaker 1: I wasn't ready to go sign a band to the agency.
Speaker 1: I hadn't honed my skills. You know, I was out,
Speaker 1: you know, because you know, I guess one of the
Speaker 1: highlights of my career early on was I was out
Speaker 1: enough people knew I where I worked that the day
Speaker 1: I knew, I could walk to C. B. G B's
Speaker 1: Hilly Crystals, sitting there and I get in free, right,
Speaker 1: I mean easily one of the ten highlights of my
Speaker 1: career when I when I'd go to Max's Kansas City
Speaker 1: and I've been sitting at the door, come on in,
Speaker 1: you know, ever being at the Roxy and I still
Speaker 1: have it when the table was reserved and it was
Speaker 1: my name, I took that sting. That was one of
Speaker 1: the same things. So I mean that those were magic,
Speaker 1: And you know, so I get to go see Johnny Thunders,
Speaker 1: I'd get to go to shows and go I just
Speaker 1: wanted to be entertained when I wasn't doing business. I
Speaker 1: wanted to go see bands. If I wasn't at Yankee Stadium. Okay,
Speaker 1: so how did you find this band to manage? Um?
Speaker 1: I started. I met this girl who was managing a
Speaker 1: band and asked who asked me if I had help?
Speaker 1: All right, And this was quasi romance. No what No,
Speaker 1: not at all, not at all, just somebody I met,
Speaker 1: And like, I'm just meeting people who are involved because
Speaker 1: I'm making friends, making meeting new people, um that are
Speaker 1: on the scene in New York. Because prior to that,
Speaker 1: I was just a college kid who go into the
Speaker 1: city to go watch bands. So now I'm part of
Speaker 1: I'm trying to incorporate myself into this scene. And I go,
Speaker 1: I saw this band, I said, yeah, I'd like to
Speaker 1: help him out, but then I got blown out instantly, right, um.
Speaker 1: But through her, I met this other band, UM band
Speaker 1: called the Boyfriends, UM four guys UM that I could tell.
Speaker 1: Their influences were you know, the Beatles, the Stones, and
Speaker 1: they were living in the punk rock world, um, which
Speaker 1: is no different than when we first all discovered the Ramons.
Speaker 1: You knew, God, these guys loved the Beatles and the
Speaker 1: Beach Boys, you know, at a time when like music
Speaker 1: was all about bands, Like yes, there was a refreshment there.
Speaker 1: So so I started managing this band and really wasn't
Speaker 1: that smart of a manager. I was just because I
Speaker 1: was at an agency and I was meeting promoters and clubs.
Speaker 1: I was getting them really really good gigs. And ultimately, Wayne,
Speaker 1: who was the head of the department, and you know this,
Speaker 1: he's the represents David Bowie. He's brought in the Clash
Speaker 1: and the Jam, all of these bands that like, we're
Speaker 1: cooler than anything new at the time for me. Um,
Speaker 1: he kind of saw what I was doing, um and
Speaker 1: let me get away with it. Yeah. And uh. He
Speaker 1: had this band on Columbia called the Hitmen and they
Speaker 1: were coming out around the same time as a psychedelic
Speaker 1: first same label, and he goes, Andy, this band is
Speaker 1: going to move to New York. They're gonna be here
Speaker 1: for eight months or two a year, and they want
Speaker 1: to work like a local band. I want to see
Speaker 1: them getting the kind of gigs that you're stupid band
Speaker 1: is good. And from that was it. I got instinct
Speaker 1: and was able to achieve results. I was able to
Speaker 1: achieve results, and I did a good enough job that
Speaker 1: that Wayne, as head of the department, ran interference with
Speaker 1: the people upstairs about the fact that I wore sneakers
Speaker 1: to work every day. So that was good, very important,
Speaker 1: very important. Okay, and don't you fumble at first booking gigs. Um,
Speaker 1: I got the hang of it pretty quick, you know what,
Speaker 1: I don't you know what. I worked for this agent
Speaker 1: as the assistant to this guy Stewinstrub, and he was
Speaker 1: very plugged in. I mean his acts were like you know,
Speaker 1: Andy Gibb and Herbie Hancock, and he was a territorial booker.
Speaker 1: So through him I would hear his tech. You know,
Speaker 1: you had a listening device, so I'm hearing I'm hearing him.
Speaker 1: I'm hearing his rap the way he does it. Um.
Speaker 1: And there was a real sincerity to him that because
Speaker 1: I knew him, I knew that was real sincerity. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like, you know, I wasn't jive talking, and so
Speaker 1: I probably picked up a little bit of how he
Speaker 1: does it, and I know what my personality is and uh,
Speaker 1: and I knew I was learning the mechanics of of
Speaker 1: numbers of how you know, gigs work and up and
Speaker 1: just gathering it. But you know, the focus was, Hey,
Speaker 1: I get to be close to music. Okay, So you're
Speaker 1: managing this band, you're working with a hit man. And
Speaker 1: what happens next? Um, both bands flopped despite me having
Speaker 1: done a good job. UM, And what happens next is
Speaker 1: at at William Morris Wayne Wayne leaves to start I
Speaker 1: t G with another agent, etcetera. I'm left there, A
Speaker 1: new department head is brought in from the outside who
Speaker 1: has a young gun, etcetera. And I had been promoted
Speaker 1: to agent literally right before Wayne left. UM And realistically
Speaker 1: I probably wasn't ready. I just think I was rewarded
Speaker 1: for whatever. But I knew I was going to ultimately
Speaker 1: be able to do it. But I also knew for
Speaker 1: some reason, I had this weird feeling that the new regime,
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not gonna last. And I had that.
Speaker 1: I knew that I wasn't gonna last. And Ian Copeland
Speaker 1: had had called me from FBI, had had reached out
Speaker 1: a few months earlier. So the minute I sensed and
Speaker 1: I literally was dedicated, I was going to stay where
Speaker 1: I was. But the minute I got the feeling I
Speaker 1: was going to end up getting fired. UM. I called
Speaker 1: Ian and he offered me the gig, and he goes,
Speaker 1: when can you start? And I said, well, you gotta
Speaker 1: wait till after I get fired here, because they're gonna
Speaker 1: give me severance pay if I if I if I quit,
Speaker 1: if I don't, as long as I don't quit. And
Speaker 1: that all happened, and I literally went went to work
Speaker 1: for Ian and uh, you know, FBI was like the
Speaker 1: coolest place in the world. UM they were really the
Speaker 1: first boutique agency in in the line of many boutique
Speaker 1: agencies that came afterwards. UM. I was there for about
Speaker 1: six weeks and I got some sort of an anxiety that's,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be an agent. I
Speaker 1: want to be a manager because I had had so
Speaker 1: much fun managing the Boyfriends. UM. So for about three
Speaker 1: years or so, I became a manager. I had a partner.
Speaker 1: We were managing a band called the Rousers. We were
Speaker 1: managing Wayne Kramer because we had met Wayne through Johnny Thunders,
Speaker 1: who me and my partner had had worked with UM
Speaker 1: and uh, we were just doing that and we'd pick
Speaker 1: up an occasional band to book just for cash flow.
Speaker 1: But it was you quit FBI after how long? About
Speaker 1: six weeks? And what did he Copeland say? Not a lot,
Speaker 1: not a lot. It's just okay. We could tell you
Speaker 1: weren't feeling it okay, but generally speaking he was always great.
Speaker 1: Management is a license to starve, and I did, and
Speaker 1: I did, and then uh Uh, once I realized I
Speaker 1: was starving, that was that. And then another friend of mine,
Speaker 1: who had been an agent at a company called Variety
Speaker 1: in in Minneapolis, um Uh went to work uh at
Speaker 1: a small agency called Singer Management, which was run by
Speaker 1: Bob Singerman. Frank Riley was working there, etcetera. So my
Speaker 1: friend goes to work there, my friend Arnie. And about
Speaker 1: a week after he's there is when Frank left to
Speaker 1: start venture booking. Um and I get a call, Hey,
Speaker 1: will you come in and just help us books and bands?
Speaker 1: We got stuff to do. I said, okay, I'll come
Speaker 1: for a little bit. In the first two weeks, um
Speaker 1: I signed the Gun Club, Arnie starts signing the entire
Speaker 1: roster from Alligator Records. Um Uh signed a band on
Speaker 1: Caroline called Gene Loves Jezebel. And we're off to the races.
Speaker 1: And so we have our our agency going. We find
Speaker 1: this is being an agent, this is not I'm an
Speaker 1: agent again. I'm totally an agent again. And all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, I'm getting about two three hundred dollars a
Speaker 1: week to take home, right, Okay, I'm good with that.
Speaker 1: And your parents supportive or not not supportive? Uh? They
Speaker 1: were real supportive, real supportive. Um, I really said. My
Speaker 1: dad didn't get to see the year when everything just
Speaker 1: click and turned around for me, but he believed that
Speaker 1: I was gonna do something right. So so we have
Speaker 1: this little agency and we move up town. We find
Speaker 1: a lawyer who has office space. We move uptown from
Speaker 1: the Cable building which was down on Canal Street on
Speaker 1: Houston Street and Broadway, and at the time in that building,
Speaker 1: Frank Riley was upstairs and Venture Booking Steve Martin had
Speaker 1: the music business agency in that building. And so we
Speaker 1: go uptown and we started our agency and through through
Speaker 1: the lawyer, we get turned on two people, Roadrunner Records,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I'm starting to learn about
Speaker 1: metal but the speed metal thing. Um. And the name
Speaker 1: of your company is at that time, it's called Talent Resource,
Speaker 1: but it changes after my partner and I kind of
Speaker 1: split up. Well before we get there, you get your
Speaker 1: hooked up with road Runner Record. Yeah, and I'm starting
Speaker 1: to go out and I went to see a show. Uh,
Speaker 1: Venom Slayer at Exodus, and I think it was as
Speaker 1: Studio fifty four, and I'm watching this and to me,
Speaker 1: it's hardcore punk rock, except there's long hair and lead
Speaker 1: guitar solos, and and the solos were just very very fast,
Speaker 1: not not tasteful at all. Um, but something was going
Speaker 1: on with it, and I was connected enough, and we
Speaker 1: had another We hired a young guy named Dean to
Speaker 1: work with us, and through the lawyer, he gets turned
Speaker 1: on to to to get a call with with Dave
Speaker 1: Mustain and we signed Meganeth and somehow Dave and I
Speaker 1: just became close and you know, but and he and
Speaker 1: I got along, so so we had that going. And
Speaker 1: my partner and I didn't see eye to eye on
Speaker 1: how to run the company. More so that like he
Speaker 1: was real serious about it. Had the computer, We're doing projections,
Speaker 1: and and my attitude was, look, book dates, collect deposits,
Speaker 1: pay our bills, don't worry about anything until we bounce
Speaker 1: a check. Let's just move forward. Um. I'm not that
Speaker 1: great with numbers when it comes to stuff like that.
Speaker 1: My attitude was, Hey, if I don't bounce a check,
Speaker 1: I don't need to know how much money I have
Speaker 1: as long as I don't know people money. So we
Speaker 1: split that up. We split up. I go to my
Speaker 1: apartment and start booking punk rock and speed metal bands
Speaker 1: and a few alternative bands. Arnie stays in business and
Speaker 1: he's doing the blues acts and some rock acts, and
Speaker 1: ultimately he ended up bailing. So I ended up getting
Speaker 1: the office back, and I had been what did he
Speaker 1: end up doing? You look, music business? He left, He
Speaker 1: left to do other stuff, and I ended up change
Speaker 1: calling the company Bandwagon, and Bend started getting popular. I
Speaker 1: mean that you know, the Circle Jerks and GBH and
Speaker 1: the Exploited and you know Megadeath, Um Celtic, Frost Metal
Speaker 1: Church there. Wow, I'm putting dinner on the table for
Speaker 1: myself and and it was great. It was exciting and
Speaker 1: it was fun um and you know, ultimately, I kept
Speaker 1: the Bandwagon rolling for about two or three years. And
Speaker 1: then he and Copeland calls, right, and so we talked,
Speaker 1: and yeah, sure, I'm gonna come back to FBI because
Speaker 1: Ian was great, is legend one of you know, he's
Speaker 1: a legendary and uh and also probably the best boss
Speaker 1: I ever had, just the most hospitable person in the world.
Speaker 1: And it was a great vibe up there, and I
Speaker 1: got to do my thing with with my clients, et cetera.
Speaker 1: I got to meet other new people because they were
Speaker 1: so plugged in in a totally different avenue, in a
Speaker 1: different direction, but they weren't doing any any real modern
Speaker 1: hardcore music or or or metal. Um so I fit in.
Speaker 1: They fit with me, and Ian was a great boss,
Speaker 1: and you know, getting a note Buck Williams and getting
Speaker 1: Rick Shore and and then John Ditmark came in, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was really really a good thing and
Speaker 1: that that brought us to and what happened in nineteen
Speaker 1: uh for nine, at the end of the year, um
Speaker 1: I got convinced to leave FBI and moved to California,
Speaker 1: and so I did. And the company was it was
Speaker 1: called Triad Artists, which which got purchased by William Morris
Speaker 1: like two or three years after I moved out here,
Speaker 1: but I had already left there by the time that
Speaker 1: purchase came. And Triad was who who was working a Triad?
Speaker 1: Well I was you know, for me going there, it
Speaker 1: was you know, Peter gross Late and Mark geiger Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, a lot of a lot of agents
Speaker 1: that are out there in the world. Now we're part
Speaker 1: of you know, of of the Triad that I first
Speaker 1: came into. And why did you leave Triad because Peter
Speaker 1: wanted me to well, you gotta go a little bit deeper,
Speaker 1: especially since Peterson I think, you know, I know, I
Speaker 1: think they had higher expectations of how much commission I
Speaker 1: could bring in then I actually brought in. So they
Speaker 1: didn't renew my contract. Um, I was all set to
Speaker 1: do Bandwagon again because that was when I was sort
Speaker 1: of the happiest between their and FBI and the when
Speaker 1: when you're in the metal business and you're an independent
Speaker 1: especially in the eighties, and you're an independent agent and
Speaker 1: not as savvy as like the major players are, you
Speaker 1: get poached a lot. And so I got poached big
Speaker 1: time by I c M. But I but at Triad,
Speaker 1: I did a package with with Mega Ethan some of
Speaker 1: their bands got and it was the first time I
Speaker 1: got to know Bill Elson, who was running I c
Speaker 1: M at the time. And uh, but it never dawned
Speaker 1: on me to to think about going there. And and
Speaker 1: a friend of mine is a manager manager of one
Speaker 1: of my acts, UM says you should go talk to Bill.
Speaker 1: And I remember going to talk to Bill, and it
Speaker 1: was literally the day after the Rodney King riots and
Speaker 1: we're having breakfast at the Four Seasons. And the first
Speaker 1: thing he said to me, which got me going, because
Speaker 1: I'm an independent spirit in this all of this, was
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm sitting there with all this power,
Speaker 1: and there's a whole generation of new young promoters out
Speaker 1: there and managed and I don't know any of them,
Speaker 1: and I don't think my people know any of them.
Speaker 1: And I was really impressed with that. It's only because
Speaker 1: of the horror stories i'd heard about this guy and
Speaker 1: what a terror he can be. And he was really smart,
Speaker 1: was really way smarter than me, and I said he
Speaker 1: and and I also knew that I would be isolated
Speaker 1: in the West Coast office, away from the main structure,
Speaker 1: and he never allowed booking to be out of the
Speaker 1: out of the West Coast office, and it's and it's
Speaker 1: a territorial thing. And I told him after that, if
Speaker 1: I come, I have to book. And if you're a
Speaker 1: territorial thing, I have to book a territory. I have
Speaker 1: to be part of that. But I have to be
Speaker 1: able to book top to bottom. In other words, some
Speaker 1: agents it's like, oh I don't book clubs anymore. I
Speaker 1: don't do that. I don't have to do that. I
Speaker 1: needed to book top to bottom. I had a lot
Speaker 1: to learn about booking the top. I knew how to
Speaker 1: book the bottom really, really well. And I didn't want
Speaker 1: to give that up because I enjoy that. I enjoy
Speaker 1: the development, and you know, it's less stressful. So he said, okay,
Speaker 1: and and then I was able to get you know,
Speaker 1: and he moved one of the agents from New York
Speaker 1: out to California, and I was able to bring my assistant,
Speaker 1: who I had had a triad. I convinced him to
Speaker 1: come over to I c M with me um and
Speaker 1: I was there for about I think I was there
Speaker 1: for six years. So it was good. Yeah, when you're assistant.
Speaker 1: It was a guy named Brian Greenbaum who's an agent
Speaker 1: now c A A somewhere like that. Yeah, it does well,
Speaker 1: you said, A fascinating thing to be discussed. One seed,
Speaker 1: hees Paul Simon, Bob Dylan. He said, if the student
Speaker 1: doesn't exceed the teacher, you're a bad teacher, yea, or
Speaker 1: there's no progress. Okay. So there at I c M
Speaker 1: for six or seven years, then what happens um. Bill.
Speaker 1: There was a bunch of firings about five years into it.
Speaker 1: Among them was Bill Elson. Um, And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I stayed through my contract and just realized I didn't
Speaker 1: I want to stay. UM. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: wanted me to stay. It just never got to that
Speaker 1: I was gonna leave. Um. And once they realized I'm
Speaker 1: not going to stay, three months before the contracts up,
Speaker 1: they make me leave. So yeah, they I had to
Speaker 1: negotiate thing. I go, look, I'm going to work out
Speaker 1: the contract. Well, we're just gonna pay you, but you
Speaker 1: gotta leave. I go, no, but the contract says you'll
Speaker 1: put a roof over my head and pay for my assistant, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: So a little back and forth. They were the guy,
Speaker 1: the lawyer there was really honorable to me. It was
Speaker 1: all fair and it was all good except and and
Speaker 1: by that time, you know, Brian had already left and
Speaker 1: he was starting his career at CIA. My assistant at
Speaker 1: the time was was Val Wolf, who had previously been
Speaker 1: Bryan's assistant after he got promoted. So I ended up
Speaker 1: leaving and I go, ship, I don't have a job,
Speaker 1: I don't have a place to work. I want to
Speaker 1: start bandwagon again, but like, I have to start it tomorrow.
Speaker 1: And fortunately, um Rick Van Stanton and Paul Toilette, who
Speaker 1: are my friends, come over to the Golden Voice house.
Speaker 1: Golden Voice was located on Sunset Boulevard in like this house, right,
Speaker 1: We'll give you office space. Just come on over start
Speaker 1: your company. UM. So I went out. I bought a
Speaker 1: I bought a computer because I didn't have a computer
Speaker 1: of my own. You know, I think I bought like
Speaker 1: an It was before the Apple, before the G the
Speaker 1: G three was whatever came before that. I don't know
Speaker 1: what it was, right, it was an Apple, of course.
Speaker 1: Um And I literally started my agency the next day.
Speaker 1: I started bandwagon the next day, working out a Golden Voice,
Speaker 1: got a p O box and got it going, got
Speaker 1: it started, um and I and the entire time from
Speaker 1: the time I started it, UM, I was never in
Speaker 1: I was never in the red. I was making a
Speaker 1: lot of money. I was literally never in the red.
Speaker 1: And you know, ultimately I got an office on Melrose. Um.
Speaker 1: Once I had the office, Val Wolfe left, I c
Speaker 1: M came over and joined me. Our old intern from
Speaker 1: I c M. Melody King came over and joined us.
Speaker 1: She was going to be the office manager, but it
Speaker 1: was a three person operation, and I figured I might
Speaker 1: as well do this right, so I I got a
Speaker 1: business manager. I learned, oh, you gotta put up a bond,
Speaker 1: you gotta get a talent agency license, you gotta do
Speaker 1: all of this, which when I was bandwagon in New York,
Speaker 1: I never had. Okay, so I hope. Fortunately there's a
Speaker 1: statute of limitations, so I don't know anybody, so I
Speaker 1: don't have to give anybody their commissions back. Um, but
Speaker 1: we ran it properly and right, and it stayed in
Speaker 1: the black and it was a lot of fun, and
Speaker 1: it was it was good, and it was good. And
Speaker 1: then around the turn of the century. Now it takes
Speaker 1: us to the turn of the century and Steve Martin
Speaker 1: and Neil Warnock wanted to open up the Agency Group
Speaker 1: in California and my kids were probably five six or
Speaker 1: something and maybe less. Um. I don't want to do
Speaker 1: the math right now, but all of a sudden, I'm
Speaker 1: thinking I'm sitting there and it's my responsibility, besides paying
Speaker 1: the salaries, making sure that that everyone has health insurance,
Speaker 1: making sure we pay our taxes, I gotta look at
Speaker 1: the books half the time and stuff like that. I go,
Speaker 1: this seems like a good opportunity to not have to
Speaker 1: do that. As much as I like Bandwagon, but I
Speaker 1: would never have gone to a big company like that again.
Speaker 1: It just I just this felt like Bandwagon meets FBI,
Speaker 1: and it'll just be me and about five people in
Speaker 1: a California office and they're already running in Toronto, London
Speaker 1: and New York. And it was also Steve Martin, who
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite people in the world. So
Speaker 1: we opened up the Agency Group's West Coast office. Um,
Speaker 1: it was basically myself, Val Melody, Dave Kirby who moved
Speaker 1: out from Agency Group in New York, and Andrew good
Speaker 1: Friend who moved out from Agency Group in New York.
Speaker 1: And about three months later, Steve Martin hires Bruce Solar,
Speaker 1: who had his own company up in San Francisco, Absolute Artists,
Speaker 1: and Bruce came in. And I didn't know Bruce that well. Um,
Speaker 1: I couldn't do what I do now without having Bruce
Speaker 1: around and vice versa. I'd like to think, Um, and
Speaker 1: he's an amazing agent. Okay, So you're at Agency Group
Speaker 1: and then the Agency Group goes with changes you end
Speaker 1: up at a p A. So let's talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the business. You mean, are you are
Speaker 1: the agent for Social Distortion? Okay? Do they have a manager? Uh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they had a manager when I first started working with
Speaker 1: them back in New York when I was at FBI.
Speaker 1: The manager was Jim Gearno, who I knew as a
Speaker 1: promoter um at the time. But he's no. Do they
Speaker 1: have a manager now? Yes they do? Okay, So tell
Speaker 1: us what it's like. What are you what kind of
Speaker 1: discussions do you have and what kind of decisions do
Speaker 1: you make with Social Distortion? I think you know, the manager,
Speaker 1: Shane Schueln and I, you know, we talked about you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: when are we when? When's this band going to make
Speaker 1: another record soon? Um? But the the whole thing is
Speaker 1: that this band has like this great fan base. You know,
Speaker 1: it came out of punk rock, but there's so much
Speaker 1: more than that to this band. UM to the point
Speaker 1: where we could play ont On country music festivals, um,
Speaker 1: as well as rock festivals as well as play punk
Speaker 1: rock events. So I think I think it's really about
Speaker 1: maintaining you know, this is a band that doesn't put
Speaker 1: records out every three years. So, but they were a
Speaker 1: working band. They Fortunately, there's a lot of so many markets.
Speaker 1: I can call up and say Social Distortion and the
Speaker 1: promoter wants to do it. Okay, let's start from the beginning.
Speaker 1: You mentioned a record. How important is a new record
Speaker 1: at this point? Um, for a band like that, I
Speaker 1: think it's about relevance. It's about letting their fans know
Speaker 1: there's still that they're relevant, they're still productive, etcetera. Now,
Speaker 1: Social Distortions fans don't have expectations of an album every
Speaker 1: once in a while. They have their expactations that there's
Speaker 1: gonna be time in between albums, but they also know
Speaker 1: that when the album comes out that it's not this
Speaker 1: one's a bummer. That's not going to happen, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think Mike Ness would let that happen. Okay,
Speaker 1: So let's assume you're talking to the Meanderty. The band
Speaker 1: is gonna work. How many dates a year does the
Speaker 1: band do? They do probably a hundred and fifty dates
Speaker 1: a year, anywhere between a hundred and twenty a hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty dates a year. They'll go out for two months,
Speaker 1: sometimes two and a half months at a time. But
Speaker 1: they do that, they can do that twice a year.
Speaker 1: So how far in advance of these tours booked? Um?
Speaker 1: Hopefully you know I'd like it to be, you know,
Speaker 1: have a nice six months or longer plan. Um. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's like I'm booking something on yeah, three months notice.
Speaker 1: I've I've had bands need me to do stuff for
Speaker 1: them on two months notice. Um, okay, well, let's just
Speaker 1: you know, use the example of social distortion. They come
Speaker 1: to you, they're gonna go on a three month tour.
Speaker 1: Let's assume they give you the six months notice. How
Speaker 1: do you just thought i'd wear rooms? Uh? Ticket price
Speaker 1: and all that ticket price? Um, we've inched up. We've
Speaker 1: inched their ticket prices up. I and you know, ten
Speaker 1: years ago, ticket price wise, I probably underpriced them. Um,
Speaker 1: whether that was my own paranoia or just watching how
Speaker 1: things were starting to get out of hand in our business.
Speaker 1: I said, I don't want to be part of that,
Speaker 1: but I also don't want to eliminate the opportunity for
Speaker 1: the band to make as good a living as possible
Speaker 1: in an honorable way. So I think so we've inched
Speaker 1: it up. We've inched it up. We're still very reasonable
Speaker 1: I think for the most part, we're averaging thirty set
Speaker 1: compared to the marketplace. It's very long, it's still it's reasonable.
Speaker 1: It's low, and it's reasonable. UM, and we'll keep going up.
Speaker 1: But I don't want to cross the line of unreasonable. Okay,
Speaker 1: but I'm coming and we're gonna go on a tour.
Speaker 1: How do you decide routing, venues, price, etcetera. UM, I
Speaker 1: basically try to estimate how many tickets can I sell
Speaker 1: at this ticket price in this market. And let's let's
Speaker 1: say I say the number is two thousand, because I
Speaker 1: don't know what the plan is next year or the
Speaker 1: year after, etcetera. Other than the band's going to want
Speaker 1: to work. They and they get it when we all
Speaker 1: talk about it, I'll play the fifteen hundred to seventeen
Speaker 1: hundred seater. UM, leave something on the table. This we're
Speaker 1: not We usually on average don't spend a lot of
Speaker 1: money on support bands. The support bands are really great entertainment.
Speaker 1: That that's a musical fit. We're always were thinking in
Speaker 1: about the Social Distortion audience when they get there. We
Speaker 1: want to make sure if there's two bands playing before
Speaker 1: Social d that that they're entertaining that audience. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: assume you're opening for sociality. How much you're gonna make, um,
Speaker 1: five hundred to three thousand dollars? Okay, So it's an
Speaker 1: opportunity as opposed to a profit making. Well, it's an opportunity.
Speaker 1: But when when we see something that we really would
Speaker 1: want and and they're worth hundred but demanding two thousand,
Speaker 1: we'll pay it. It's for the integrity of the show
Speaker 1: itself from beginning to end. Okay. So let's assume you say, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think I can sell two thousand. I want to
Speaker 1: go to a fifteen hundred. How do you decide what
Speaker 1: cities and what buildings? Um? I look at where we've been. Um,
Speaker 1: when was the last time we played a market? Um?
Speaker 1: How many markets did I skip? Like you know, on
Speaker 1: last year's tour, I had more flexibility because the tour
Speaker 1: before that didn't play New York, didn't play Boston, didn't
Speaker 1: play Chicago, didn't play Florida at all. This band can
Speaker 1: go out and play a lot of shows, and there's
Speaker 1: markets that are obvious. Most bands would need to have
Speaker 1: to play to get a national tour, get around the
Speaker 1: country in and out. We this band has enough markets
Speaker 1: where they're welcome that I can sometimes skip certain markets
Speaker 1: on any given tour. So, you know, the other thing
Speaker 1: that we've done with it with with them a lot
Speaker 1: is they'll play multiples. They'll they'll go into a market
Speaker 1: you know where you know in Chicago instead of playing
Speaker 1: the Aragon Ballroom three nights at the House of Blues. Um.
Speaker 1: There's less wear and tear and travel. And when you're
Speaker 1: playing a smaller venue and you're not a band putting
Speaker 1: out records quite a lot um in a large venue,
Speaker 1: the concert experiences different depending on where you're located. So,
Speaker 1: you know, you go play at the Aragon, you go
Speaker 1: play an arena, you know, you go play at the
Speaker 1: Shrine downtown l A. The two thousand people towards the
Speaker 1: front of the stage are getting a way different show
Speaker 1: than the three thousand people behind them. So the the
Speaker 1: purpose of the multiples that's worked for for this band
Speaker 1: has been everyone in the back is getting the same
Speaker 1: show as the people in the front, because we want
Speaker 1: to ensure that after that when we come back a
Speaker 1: year later, no matter where we play or two years later,
Speaker 1: that they're coming back um, because we're not putting out product.
Speaker 1: So so they're not in the press all the time.
Speaker 1: We're not TV stars. Um, it's an ongoing business that
Speaker 1: you know, the band celebrating at anniversary this year. Wow.
Speaker 1: So how do you just let's assume your your vision
Speaker 1: this you just call up the promoter out of the
Speaker 1: blue and say, hey, you know, I want to work there? Um,
Speaker 1: sort of sort of and you know once you know,
Speaker 1: like like with any any agent, you know, because of
Speaker 1: the consolidation in the music business, when when any act
Speaker 1: that's in demand the minute the minute the agent calls
Speaker 1: Don Strasburg, all of a sudden, the A G Guy
Speaker 1: in the Midwest, the A G Guy in New York,
Speaker 1: the A G guys in Texas, they know something's going
Speaker 1: on and there's a band. This band is available no
Speaker 1: matter you know. And that's not only for social distortion.
Speaker 1: I would think every agent you know gets incomings after
Speaker 1: they make their first call on a band that the
Speaker 1: marketplace likes to show love to. Okay, So let's assume
Speaker 1: you've got a promoter, you've got a building. How do
Speaker 1: you make a deal. Yes, for the expenses you ask
Speaker 1: for the building. I know what ticket price I wanted
Speaker 1: to Okay, Um, you know it's it's probably no different
Speaker 1: than for other agents. You you look at you look
Speaker 1: at the promoter's expenses. Do they give those to you
Speaker 1: or you just oh, yeah, you have to have that.
Speaker 1: They they give you a list of the expenses that
Speaker 1: that are the expenses for running the show. Okay, Um,
Speaker 1: in some cases those are real expenses. In some cases
Speaker 1: those aren't. That you know, that's that's the nature of
Speaker 1: what goes on. And like I think promoters and agents
Speaker 1: have to take it all with a grain of salt
Speaker 1: and understand we all need to work with each other
Speaker 1: to sustain our business. Um. It was a lot easier
Speaker 1: before the consolidation. Um. But I find you can have
Speaker 1: honest conversations, you know. I think depending on the act,
Speaker 1: you can have very honest conversations with them. You know.
Speaker 1: It's in a case like you know, you know some bands,
Speaker 1: if you're playing for the promoter and the promoter is
Speaker 1: also the innkeeper, the person who's who's selling the audience,
Speaker 1: the beers, the builder who Yeah, exactly if the promoter
Speaker 1: is if you're selling to the promoter who owns the building,
Speaker 1: then I'll see all their expenses for running the show.
Speaker 1: But the deal could very well be based on numbers
Speaker 1: that no longer work because you know, I know how
Speaker 1: much ahead you're gonna do at the bar at this show,
Speaker 1: So that factors in, you know, or at least as
Speaker 1: an agent representing an action factor that you know how
Speaker 1: much they're gonna do with the bar. Um, you don't
Speaker 1: really you know, you just know when it's gonna be
Speaker 1: the exact numbers. You don't know. Okay, So you say, okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna make a deal. They give you the expenses,
Speaker 1: Then what's the and you go through and you will
Speaker 1: how do you then get to the price? Um? They
Speaker 1: ultimately make an offer. So they make an offer, you're
Speaker 1: waiting for them to make it. They'll in in some
Speaker 1: cases they'll make an offer. In some cases they'll ask
Speaker 1: how much do you want? And like, you know, if
Speaker 1: I want ten dollars, I'll tell them I want twelve
Speaker 1: dollars and see what they come back with. But ultimately,
Speaker 1: I mean for me and the way the way I
Speaker 1: do business and and the way I've always done it
Speaker 1: with with most of my clients and and with social distortion,
Speaker 1: is I want to make my band top dollar. Um.
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that the gig is good
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that that I'm putting them
Speaker 1: in a place where the audience is going to have
Speaker 1: a great time. And but I also even if if
Speaker 1: the promoter ends up paying whatever they're paying, I want
Speaker 1: them to feel good about it. You know. It's it's
Speaker 1: a luxury with a band like this that does so
Speaker 1: well consistently for so many years that they get paid
Speaker 1: and the promoters comfortable paying them that, and they always
Speaker 1: come back they want more. So, Uh, how do you
Speaker 1: decide on ticket fees like the Ticketmaster convenience charges, etcetera.
Speaker 1: You look at them and you ask for them, and
Speaker 1: and I think some companies in including Ticketmaster, you know
Speaker 1: you can. You can talk to them and and they'll
Speaker 1: show you flexibility. They will show some flexibility. Um, if
Speaker 1: you take the time to talk about it, give them
Speaker 1: your reasons why, give them their reasons why they should Um,
Speaker 1: I've been pretty successful with that. Well, let's just assume
Speaker 1: you're you're gonna make a deal. They've offered a price.
Speaker 1: Ticket sales are gonna be forty dollars and is then
Speaker 1: what might you say relative to the fees? Um. I've
Speaker 1: had situations where you know, at thirty five dollar tickets
Speaker 1: they've come back to me with in this city it's
Speaker 1: ten fifty I go on a thirty five dollar ticket, right,
Speaker 1: But I've but I've also when I've looked at an
Speaker 1: overall tour and look in some cases, you know, because
Speaker 1: of consolidation, the odds are if you're out there playing
Speaker 1: major markets, half of your dates are really playing for
Speaker 1: the same company that just so happens to own the
Speaker 1: ticketing company. Right. Um And you have to make them
Speaker 1: feel that that we're all in this together, we're partners.
Speaker 1: I want you to make money on your show. You know,
Speaker 1: I appreciate the service of being able to buy a
Speaker 1: ticket online that you deserve to be paid for it.
Speaker 1: I also know that I've cut a deal with your
Speaker 1: local promoter who's very happy. Um. But if part of
Speaker 1: his happiness is like he's gouging the audience member for
Speaker 1: a little extra buck, I go, I don't you know
Speaker 1: some artists will get that and go, I want you
Speaker 1: to pay the band that extra buck out of the
Speaker 1: out of it. What I'll do is say, I want
Speaker 1: you to make that buck go away and not charge
Speaker 1: my audience for it. Um. And And you know what
Speaker 1: you do enough ongoing business with people and you get
Speaker 1: relationships going and you're a straight shooter. You you know
Speaker 1: you're a straight shooter. Um. They get to know you
Speaker 1: and like you. I try to be liked. Some people
Speaker 1: don't like me, but most do. Um. And you know
Speaker 1: from that, from that end you can find a comfort zone.
Speaker 1: Let's be clear, to make a deal with the promoter,
Speaker 1: the promoter does not decide the fee. Well, the promoter
Speaker 1: that the promoters, you know, if it's Ticketmaster, if it's
Speaker 1: Live Nation Dates, you know, they know there. They have
Speaker 1: a grid. They know on a thirty five dollar ticket,
Speaker 1: the convenience charges this, um boy. They used to have
Speaker 1: order charges that went away um on a and anywhere
Speaker 1: between thirty five and thirty nine fifty. It's this. The
Speaker 1: minute you go over thirty nine fifty, it goes up
Speaker 1: by this amount, etcetera, etcetera. I you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know the exact numbers right now. I'm not prepared to
Speaker 1: answer that question, you know, but you can can still
Speaker 1: talk to them and say I'm not comfortable with that. Okay. Now,
Speaker 1: in the old days, it was always a guarantee against commission.
Speaker 1: Now most of the fees are up front. So how
Speaker 1: do you structure the deal. You just basically say, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna get X number of dollars? Is there?
Speaker 1: Do they You ever go into percentages, percentage not putting
Speaker 1: you do you? You sometimes will work on bonuses outside
Speaker 1: the deal. Um. And you know it depends on the act.
Speaker 1: You know. Um. You know, for the most part, if
Speaker 1: you know the date's going to sell out, the promoter
Speaker 1: knows that date's going to sell out, whether the guarantee
Speaker 1: is sell out money or not, you want to make
Speaker 1: the deal versus a percentage of the net if if
Speaker 1: you think that date it's going to sell out, and
Speaker 1: it's an act you're developing, right, I'm okay to do
Speaker 1: a promoter profit deal with with with a promoter because hey,
Speaker 1: I want to show that promoter light at the end
Speaker 1: of the tunnel. I want him to see he can
Speaker 1: make money with my client. Um, because I want to
Speaker 1: ensure that he puts the energy into the show that
Speaker 1: gets my client there. Ultimately, if it's a new young
Speaker 1: band and we're building it or it's a band on
Speaker 1: its way, you know, sometimes I'll show the promoter some
Speaker 1: light at the end of the tunnel. When you say
Speaker 1: a promoter profit deal. Okay, so you have you know,
Speaker 1: you know what the expense the show's costs are, the
Speaker 1: show's costs. Um. You add the show's costs to the promoter,
Speaker 1: you know, advertising, rent, what have have you. You add
Speaker 1: the band's guaranteed to it. Add those all up, you
Speaker 1: come to a number, all right, and that number is
Speaker 1: usually under well well under what the gross is when
Speaker 1: the show sells out. So you look at that number,
Speaker 1: you establish what of everything he just invested is right?
Speaker 1: As soon as that number is is in the bank
Speaker 1: at the box office, he gets up to what would
Speaker 1: be every dollar that comes in the box office. Once
Speaker 1: he's achieved that percentage, then the rest is split, whether
Speaker 1: seventy thirty eight, then it's always split in the artist's favor.
Speaker 1: Let's just speak here. Let's just say costs or thirty grand.
Speaker 1: So on the first thirty grand he gets how much
Speaker 1: of course to thirty grand, Um, you of that, okay,
Speaker 1: but fifteen percent would not cover his costs. Now, his
Speaker 1: costs are covered if that If that thirty grand, which
Speaker 1: is saying maybe fifteen Let's say that thirty grand reflects
Speaker 1: in costs to run the show and five thousand dollar
Speaker 1: guarantee for the band. There's the thirty grand. Okay, he
Speaker 1: starts collecting money the minute thirty thousand and one dollar
Speaker 1: comes into the box office and he gets gets it
Speaker 1: up to whatever would be just a little bit sore.
Speaker 1: I'm the first going to do math first, the first
Speaker 1: thirty thousand, does he get all of that money back? Well?
Speaker 1: That well, he uses that money to pay the band,
Speaker 1: and he uses that money to pay off the costs
Speaker 1: of having run the show. That's not money in his
Speaker 1: pocket yet. That's why to show him that he can
Speaker 1: make some money, he gets that promoter profit, he gets
Speaker 1: fifteen after he hits thirty correct, he gets fifteen cent
Speaker 1: of what of of his investment of thirty thousand? Is?
Speaker 1: I see? And then the split goes beyond that. Then
Speaker 1: the split goes beyond that, and hopefully he's making more
Speaker 1: money in the band's making more money. Obviously, if you
Speaker 1: know it's a slam dunk sellout change, then then you
Speaker 1: calculate different and you cut a different kind of deal.
Speaker 1: So normally an agent charges ten. We hear about all
Speaker 1: these acts who pay less. What's going on with that?
Speaker 1: That started? Like you know years ago? It's so competitive?
Speaker 1: Um I charged ten Um, I've lost bands because of that. Um,
Speaker 1: so if I'm doing but I was naive, No, I was.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not gonna say band names, you know.
Speaker 1: But the band that wanted the deal, I said, you
Speaker 1: you know at the time, they were threatening to go
Speaker 1: take meetings with other agents, and I just said, look,
Speaker 1: you decide you're going to stay with me, I'll go
Speaker 1: talk to my boss and see if we can do
Speaker 1: a commission deal. But you decide you want to stay
Speaker 1: with me because I've done a good job. Um, that
Speaker 1: band went away and there they have an agent that
Speaker 1: charges less. That's all. Now, I think it's really about
Speaker 1: you know, it's certainly big bands. You know. It's like, listen,
Speaker 1: you're as big as the Rolling Stones. You don't need
Speaker 1: an agent. You know, you're an act that consistently plays arena.
Speaker 1: There's plenty of money to go around and plenty of
Speaker 1: agents that are going to do it for less than
Speaker 1: ten percent. Um. Yeah, if I get a call by
Speaker 1: a big arena band that I'm google over and I love,
Speaker 1: and you know, I know where they're gonna play, I
Speaker 1: know what size venues I'm going to book them in,
Speaker 1: and they're only willing to pay you know, five or
Speaker 1: less than that or what have you. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say no, that's the real world, that's how it all,
Speaker 1: that's how it works right now, you know, And does
Speaker 1: an agent that can does an agent does an act
Speaker 1: that consistently solve arenas? Do they need an agent? Everybody
Speaker 1: needs an agent? Convince me why protecting my profession? You
Speaker 1: know what, The Rolling Stones don't need an agent. Um.
Speaker 1: They have people that do the bits and pieces, people
Speaker 1: who do what an agent, what an agent would do,
Speaker 1: and and they've chosen to do it that way. I mean,
Speaker 1: how hard is it to book the Rolling Stones? You
Speaker 1: deal with one promoter. They've been a one promoter band
Speaker 1: for forty years. So if anybody is like making an
Speaker 1: overall deal with Live Nation reg and they're selling Marina's,
Speaker 1: do they need an agent? Well? I think that was
Speaker 1: when the consolidation started, the SFX days, etcetera. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of agents really felt that this was a threat,
Speaker 1: that that the promoter, the national promoter, can provide an
Speaker 1: entire tour and they're gonna go to bands direct um.
Speaker 1: And well, in some cases they do go to bands
Speaker 1: direct um. People at very at whether it's at Live
Speaker 1: nation a e g. Or what have? You have relationships
Speaker 1: with managers, have relationships with agents, etcetera. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think the agents just need to not be paranoid.
Speaker 1: Promoters are gonna have relationships with the managers. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't get Oh, you're not allowed to call my manager.
Speaker 1: It has to go through me. Um. Those days are
Speaker 1: long gone. UM. And you know any agent that gets
Speaker 1: too paranoid about that, they're just too paranoid. And what
Speaker 1: about poaching, Um, it's part of it's part of the business.
Speaker 1: Some some actively do it or act if lee taught
Speaker 1: to do it. You know what, it's not against the rules,
Speaker 1: so you don't get kicked out of the league for
Speaker 1: doing it, or you don't get suspended for like a
Speaker 1: few months. Um. I think some you know a lot
Speaker 1: do and then there are some that don't. Have you
Speaker 1: ever a poached an act? No? Um. Have I gotten
Speaker 1: calls from acts that are with other agents saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we're looking to make a change, we're not happy, etcetera.
Speaker 1: The first thing I ask is, tell me why you're unhappy.
Speaker 1: Let me see the job that this guy did. Um,
Speaker 1: And I'll look at it. Um. In some cases, I'll
Speaker 1: say I don't know why you're changing agents. This guy
Speaker 1: did a good job. Um, but you know what, I'll
Speaker 1: also know, Hey, he's convinced he's going to change anyway.
Speaker 1: So if he's offering it to me instead of offering
Speaker 1: it to the guy down the street, you know, I'll
Speaker 1: take it on if it's something I want. But I
Speaker 1: don't actively you know, any relationship I maintain with a
Speaker 1: manager that of bands I don't represent, it's not for
Speaker 1: the purpose of like getting so close that I can
Speaker 1: like start making him love me so much that he'll
Speaker 1: pull an act from another agent. You never have people
Speaker 1: try to poach your acts right in front of you.
Speaker 1: M Hm. You know what. Look, you know what most
Speaker 1: of the acts I represent, if they're making me money. Now,
Speaker 1: I made calls to get them door deals and get
Speaker 1: them five hundred dollars a night. Yeah, you know. I
Speaker 1: booked door deals on social d I booked five hundred
Speaker 1: dollar megadeath dates. I booked five hundred dollar Green Day dates. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just the nature of the bands grow
Speaker 1: on trees, do they really? There's just so many, you know,
Speaker 1: I think, you know what. I tend to say that
Speaker 1: when when I see some of our younger agents lose
Speaker 1: acts and their heartbroken, you know, and and it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: You know. You get relationships, you have clients you love
Speaker 1: working for, your passionate about the music, you're excited about.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be successful doing this. This was my dream.
Speaker 1: And a client fires you nine out of ten times
Speaker 1: it's because they wrote bad songs and people aren't coming.
Speaker 1: But they gotta make a change. I gotta fix something,
Speaker 1: you know. And sometimes it's the agent. And I used
Speaker 1: to say that to to younger agents. Um, they get
Speaker 1: fired by a band, I go, so you're gonna give up?
Speaker 1: Or go get a new band? They grow on trees. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's assume you're one of these bands growing on trees.
Speaker 1: How do you get an agent? I think an agent
Speaker 1: kind will ultimately discover it. Right now, there's so many.
Speaker 1: I mean, our young agents are on YouTube, are on
Speaker 1: Spotify all day, discovering, discovering on Spotify, they get to
Speaker 1: see the analytics, etcetera. Um, and if their musically taken,
Speaker 1: whether they're noticing it because the analytics are great, or
Speaker 1: they're noticing it because well, this music is exciting me
Speaker 1: and I really dig it. Um it's from that point
Speaker 1: where they'll go and approach and reach out to the band,
Speaker 1: and the young guys will sometimes ask, you know, for
Speaker 1: the senior guys in the office, can you be helpful,
Speaker 1: can you help us take a meeting? UM? And that's
Speaker 1: where you find bands UM. At least that's the way
Speaker 1: I'm seeing it happen. And I see our young guys
Speaker 1: are fortifying relationships with like the new people that are
Speaker 1: the powers that be UM, you know, because it's it's
Speaker 1: changed since I was I was the young agent going
Speaker 1: after bands, and you know, i'd go over to the
Speaker 1: major labels and schmooze the A and R guys and
Speaker 1: talk to them and get to know as many of
Speaker 1: the the marketing people and product managers as I could
Speaker 1: so that when they're A and R guys signed a
Speaker 1: new band, I'm on their radar as for a call
Speaker 1: UM and I would do that. I don't think I
Speaker 1: was ever very very good at at that. I just
Speaker 1: knew that ultimately if I took on a band, I
Speaker 1: could be good for them. But I also know that
Speaker 1: there were bands that like I would never shot at
Speaker 1: getting UM. And you know what, because I think at
Speaker 1: the schmooze and at the working it. I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of agents that do that better than me.
Speaker 1: And so what is it that you do better than
Speaker 1: they do the actual job of agent? Ng Um, I'm
Speaker 1: not saying I'm yeah, I know I do it good, UM,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of people out there
Speaker 1: that do it good. UM. I think I'm very attentive.
Speaker 1: And that's just because when you're it comes from when
Speaker 1: you're competing with real people in the real music business
Speaker 1: and you're sitting in your apartment booking circle Jerk's Megadeath
Speaker 1: and GBH. I've got nothing other than to make sure
Speaker 1: that I'm doing a better job than anybody could possibly do. Um.
Speaker 1: You know there are agents with you Jack's at the
Speaker 1: big fancy companies, you know, that actually can do a
Speaker 1: just okay job and get away with it. You know.
Speaker 1: But I've always kind of been either an underdog or
Speaker 1: with companies that were underdogs. Not that I CM or
Speaker 1: Triad were underdogs UM or anywhere I've worked, but you know,
Speaker 1: I've just always felt that, like you know, like I said,
Speaker 1: I never worked at W M E or c A A.
Speaker 1: You know, those are great agencies. There's you know, you
Speaker 1: can't deny success. When something is successful, you can't look
Speaker 1: at those rosters and not say there's a hell of
Speaker 1: a lot of great artists and great music over there. Um.
Speaker 1: But I also think it's it's large. It's just very big,
Speaker 1: way too big, you know for me, um and I
Speaker 1: think the larger a company. Look, every agency has great agents,
Speaker 1: has okay agents, etcetera, etcetera. You know. Fortunately for me,
Speaker 1: I thought when we were when we had the Agency Group,
Speaker 1: which was a smaller company in its own way compared
Speaker 1: to those we didn't have full service, we didn't have film,
Speaker 1: television or anything, that was the greatest group of agents
Speaker 1: that were passionate about music, all under one roof, even
Speaker 1: though under three roofs, four roofs um where the quality
Speaker 1: of work was just excellent, it was just it was
Speaker 1: just that's what it was. There were the percentage of
Speaker 1: people doing not a great job was way lower there
Speaker 1: than anywhere else I've ever been. On that note, I
Speaker 1: think we've covered it. We've covered Andy's history Agent in Today,
Speaker 1: and of course there are million more questions, but we
Speaker 1: can't go on forever. Andie Summer's thanks so much for
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. It was a pleasure being. If
Speaker 1: we talk about skiing next time, absolutely, you know I would.
Speaker 1: I prefer to talk about skiing, so okay, talking about skiing.
Speaker 1: You ever feel there come a day that you won't
Speaker 1: be able to do it? I know, we want to
Speaker 1: think about that. I was skiing with the guy with
Speaker 1: a whistler who's seventy seven, who could ski the bumps
Speaker 1: faster than I could. In terms of not having to stop.
Speaker 1: It was just unbelievable. Okay, we'll talk the rest of
Speaker 1: this off. We will. Let's see you on the chair lift. Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you. Thanks, that's time. It's been The Bob Left
Speaker 1: Sets Podcast