WEBVTT - Interview Only w/ David S. Brown - What Teddy Roosevelt Can Teach Us About Trump’s America 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.360 This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:06.240 by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.280 frozen subscription box for sour dough breads, artisonal pastries, and 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.800 fresh pastas, plus all the items conveniently baked in twenty 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.759 five minutes or less. Unlike many store brought options, Wild 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.880 Grain uses some simple ingredients you can pronounce and a 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.480 slow fermentation process that can be a lot easier on 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.080 your belly, little gut health there right, and richer in 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.600 nutrients antioxidants. There's also no preservatives and no shortcuts. The 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.800 Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. 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This is 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:50.080 a sponsor I absolutely embrace, so use that code. 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:51.520 Well. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.080 You have heard me talk to via that history is rhyming, 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:59.360 that there's a familiarity in our recent history, early twentieth 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.120 century with what the current situation is. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.280 We're in a we're in a we've got. 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.240 These big tech titans, we had the big robber barons. 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.200 And you've probably heard myself another say that, you know, boy, 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.960 the country really needs a Teddy Roosevelt. And what's fascinating 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.720 about Teddy Roosevelt is is that he's a Rorschach test. 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.720 If you're a liberal, you love certain parts of him. 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:22.839 If you're a conservative, you love other parts of him. 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:24.519 He is somebody. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:29.560 He is like Lincoln in Washington and maybe to a 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:35.040 lesser extent, Eisenhower, where it's the rare biography you can write, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.800 where there are interested people on the left and the right, 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:39.680 and there are people that are devoted to say, no, 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.760 he's really a progressive. No, he's really a conservative. He's 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.120 a disruptor, he's this, and Teddy is definitely one of those. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.680 And let's just say I devour every Teddy Roosevelt book. 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:52.720 I think I've only read more Lincoln books than Teddy 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.840 Roosevelt books. He is clearly one of the most fascinating 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.160 Americans we've ever had. My guest today is David Brown. 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.480 He's got one of the more recent additions in the 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.400 Teddy Roosevelt Library, if you will, This is called in 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.400 the Arena, which of course is a homage to his 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.040 a Man in the Arena speech back in the day. 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.880 And this is a it is It is not just 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.680 the Teddy of the Roosevelt presidency or the Roosevelt this 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.800 it really is as much an attempt to capture the 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.079 zeitgeist and the culture that was Teddy, that inspired Teddy, 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:32.000 and the culture that he helped try to create and build. 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.880 So that's my intro, David hod I do my selling. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:37.440 Your book pretty well? 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:38.720 Wonderful. 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.760 Yes, he's a magnet for historians like yourself, right, like 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:48.920 Teddy is, just there's in the only challenge I imagine 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:54.440 you had was writing something unique that others hadn't attempted. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.280 You know, you're right, here's a magnet, not because not 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.720 just because it's an incredible life, really an incredible life, 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.720 but that life that tells us so much about America, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.080 and I think what an a storying can bring to it. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.240 You know, five years from out twenty five years amount 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.480 is the perspective of the culture. And so as you note, 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:20.440 you know there's something of the times in this book. 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:22.440 You know, it's a life, but it's also at times, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:28.080 and historians also bring, you know, additional perspective. They've seen 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:32.560 additional presidents, they've seen people use and the views rosual reputation. 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.720 We might read Roosevelt's actions differently in say nineteen fifty 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:41.480 or twenty twenty five than we would have in nineteen ten. 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:42.520 In the moment. 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.559 So in that sense, I think that there's almost always something, 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:51.240 something fresh, something interesting perspective that a storying can bring 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:52.280 to a topic. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.200 How did you tackle this? I mean, there's, like I said, 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:02.320 there is so much incredible scholarship on Teddy. You know, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.880 did you go how much core sort of you know, 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.240 back to letters and all of that sort of the 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.360 ground zero type research. 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:13.680 How much did you. 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:18.000 Either devour or avoid other takes on him? 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:19.479 What was your balance? Yeah? 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:25.200 I read the major biographies, but made notes selectively because 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.160 I didn't want too much of the perspective to sink in, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:36.159 And I focused most of my research on Roosevelt's writings, letters, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.880 journals at the journal Pritt when he was younger, and 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.760 as many many books. He was a voluminous writer he wrote. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:50.400 He wrote many books, and also the private papers, some 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.479 of the newspapers, the culturea miliar the people who knew him, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.719 the people who loved him, the people who didn't love him, 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.640 because I wanted to get a broad sense. But the 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.080 man and the times, because I think that the two 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:03.880 go hand in hand. 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.560 I'm always curious of why an author chooses their subjects, 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.680 and more importantly, when they choose their subjects. Is there 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.160 something that was happening in the moment that made you 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.040 turn there and you realize I want to unpack this, 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:26.000 tell me walk me through. You've done a few other books, 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.200 and so what drew you to Roosevelt? And when did 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.000 you decide you wanted to tackle Teddy? 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.960 So about twenty or thirteen years ago I started an 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.760 a biography of Henry Adams and Henry Adams from the 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:43.279 Great Adams family. It was a neighbor of Roosevelt's in Washington. 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.039 Roosevelt was, of course living in the White House then 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.040 Henry Adams was living well what is now the Hay 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:50.840 Adams Hotel. 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.359 Right across the street, although I think it's technically the 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.760 building was across the street from the across the right. Anyway, 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.000 there's some yeah, there's some origin story of the hotel itself, 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.559 but yes, basically right there was those listed. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.640 So they knew each other. And Henry Adams was generation older, 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:12.720 old money, like tr dry Wit, somewhat acerbic, and he 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:17.400 saw not unlike Mark Twain, he saw Roosevelt as something 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.760 of a big boy. Mark Twain said through to someone 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.280 said basically this is this is this is Tom Sawyer. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.760 We have Tom Swear in the White House, and I 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:32.120 just found Roosevelts excuse me, Adams's take on Roosevelt so interesting, 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.360 so pungent, so provocative, and it kind of drew me in. 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.400 And also I think writing that biography of Henry Adams, 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.080 it drew me to the late nineteenth century. So I 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.160 was on my graduate work. I tend to focus on 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:49.200 America in the early Republic seventeen nineties, eighteen twenty, eighteen thirties, 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.240 and there was a lot there in the late nineteenth century. 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.240 Early wasn't aware of cultural history, intellectual history, so I 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.920 do Henry Adams. I'm thinking there's a lot there about 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.240 intellectual life at that time. Now I'm interested in the politics, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.160 so I'd obviously read something. You know, some things about 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:11.160 Roosevelt before, but never systematic, never in depth, and so 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.960 I started to read just for my own curiosity. And 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.000 the deeper I got into it, the more I said 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.080 to myself, you know, I really want to write on 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.200 this guy. I want to write a biography. So it 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.520 was deep in COVID back in twenty twenty, and that's 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:25.720 when I started the project. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:31.000 What makes Roosevelt so intriguing to me is like Lincoln 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.040 and Washington. He's a president. Like I said to a 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:38.560 lesser excent Eisenhower that anybody running for president, far left 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.880 or far right, moderate, centrist, you name it, would love 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.720 to be compared favorably to said president. 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:53.239 Right. And I have I've been having. 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:59.760 An uncomfortable intellectual exercise which that i've i'm and I'm 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.400 going to I'm this is with trepidation that I that 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.880 I tiptoe on this, which is Donald Trump and Teddy Roosevelt, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.480 and the shocking amount of similarities that there are. There 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.000 are some important differences. And if you're a fan of 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.600 Teddy and not a fan of Trump, you probably recoil 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.960 at this. But you know, there's there's there is something 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:31.600 about Teddy in the time that he served of narcissism, right, 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.560 I mean the original great quote the bride at every 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.880 wedding and the and the corpse at every funeral was 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:40.280 about him, right, you know it was it was said 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:41.720 of him his daughter. 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.439 Right. What do you make of it? 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.160 And how much? How much do you see of it? 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.160 And how did you avoid it? How did you write 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.320 about it? You know, how did it? How did it 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:57.000 influence you? 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.600 Sure? I make some notes of this late in the book, 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:07.199 last pages. The narcissism was there. The question is how 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:14.760 do you deal with the narcissism and Roosevelt's it was 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.040 all about Roosevelt, but there was a sort of generosity 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:22.720 underlying Roosevelt, and that generosity I think really drew people 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.199 to him. Of course, Trump has a wide appeal as well. 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.320 Some of the similarities are a tremendous charisma on the 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:35.880 part of both men. The loyalists, they've really been loyalists 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.679 for both men. Roosevelt had a broader reach. Roosevelt got 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.480 I think like fifty six percent of the popular vote 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.439 in two thousand. Excuse me, the nineteen oh four acts. 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:47.960 An important point you made that I didn't fully appreciate 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.480 that it was. It was actually the most dominant vote 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:52.120 total we'd had really in the. 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.200 With the country that big at the time. 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.800 That's right, that's right. So he was really popular. He 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.960 could really cross over. Trump doesn't have the crossover appeal, 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:08.559 but to their loyalists, they could do no wrong. Roosevelts 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:13.160 was seen by party regulars in the GOP as being 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.600 a threat. You know, he was never supposed to be presidents. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.280 He was a war hero, and they made him a veep, 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.240 and of course McKinley wasn't supposed to get shot and killed. 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.839 But then Rooseveald becomes presidents and he's so popular that 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.760 they can't do anything with him until Roosevelt decides that 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.600 he's going to leave after a couple of terms and 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:37.520 then once the crown back. And at that time, for 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:42.160 GP regulars, this sort of gave currency to their concerns 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.640 for the last few years that Roosevelt was a maverick, 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.320 he was a loose cannon, He could not be trusted 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:52.719 for party regularity, and they opposed him, and they were 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.800 able to essentially keep them from getting the nomination in 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:01.840 nineteen twelve, and in Roosevelt said that that this was stolen, 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.760 that the people wanted him, and of course he then 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.000 broke away from the party, which is said that Trump 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.960 had talked about doing in twenty sixty. If the GOP 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.920 at that time had kept the nomination from him. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:16.800 Don't we credit Teddy with primaries? 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.840 Essentially that that that that that sort of it was 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.440 right after that that we I think Oregon had the 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:24.680 first presidential primary. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.480 There were there were there were there were a few, 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:32.760 and they're about thirteen but in Reison actually got more 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:39.760 votes and delegates in these thirteen primaries, right the sitting 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.840 president did. And there's a number of reasons why these 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:48.520 these these these primaries would expand, but one was that 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.280 it was seen that that perhaps that people need to 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.720 have more say and we would look back to, for example, 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:59.079 nineteen twelve and say so, clearly the party wanted Taft 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.960 to get the nomination, but clearly most garden variety Republican 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.119 voters wanted Roosevelt. 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.840 It's obviously the era that I think makes this an 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.880 extra magnet for me right now. And there's always been 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.600 something about Teddy, did it take a rich guy to 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:16.800 go after rich guys? 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:18.120 Did it? 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:25.120 Meaning? You know that the progressive populist politics of that 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.520 era only gets traction when a rich guy turned on 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:29.160 rich guys. 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:30.800 That's too simplistic. 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.640 Not necessarily, he was a different kind of rich guy, 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:36.480 like Henry Adams. 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.640 Here was old money and inherited, inherited well, which is 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.160 always important. I always find it fascinating. I track I 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.160 love to see right now where billionaires go right, New 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:52.560 billionaires support Trump, Inherited billionaires support the. 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.520 Left right now. It's just an interesting era that we're 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:57.480 in yeah it is. 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:03.160 Yeah. So Roosevelt did not like new money. Roosevelt thought 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.840 that that that new money was essentially, you know, building 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.960 factories and whatnot, which he recognized the country needed if 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.920 it was going to be strong. But in his notion 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.640 of the string of his life, sitting in an office 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.920 all day just making money, there was nothing romantic, There 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.640 was nothing important about that. It's going to lead to 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:29.920 the country becoming soft and not sharp any longer. So 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.040 he did feel I think when he called, for example, 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.280 JP Morgan into the White House, that there was a 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:43.320 sense of superiority on his side in reading, in culture 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.840 and background. And if Morgan had a bit more money, 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.600 which of course he did, that was okay because because 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.240 Roosevelt had had some money too. But more important, I think, 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.720 I think Roosevelt thought that he Roosevelt understood how money 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.720 should be used, and people like this new rich they 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.280 liked imagination. They didn't know what was best for the country. 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.560 They only understood what was best for themselves. 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:14.680 Why do you think he had this this sense, because 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.760 I mean, is it because he went on his travels 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.320 or you know, he did seem to at least understand. 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:27.960 You couldn't concentrate this much power in the in in 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:33.240 with these the titans of that era. But was his 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.200 motivation because he didn't want them stronger than the government, 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.320 or was his motivation because the little guy was getting hurt? 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:42.040 I use all those things. 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:43.240 You know. 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.320 He never called himself a populous and there was a 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.040 populist party at that time is it Gradon farmers, And 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.160 he thought that they were just radical and vaguely ridiculous, 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.160 But there was a populistic bone in Roosevelt. He wrote 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:01.800 to John Hey, the Secretary of State, after he Roosevelt 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.960 had toured the country, and he said, you know, seeing 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.360 these these common people out there who were standing in 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.400 you know, by a train stession for two hours in 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.480 the wintertime, you know, waiting to Henry talk. Uh, they're 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.160 so sincere, there's so there's such hard workers. You know, 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:18.640 we we we need to we need to do right 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.640 by these people. He did believe that, he did believe 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.880 that he that the presidency, that the government had a 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.520 responsibility the people. So there was something also, I think 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.760 a little bit of old money about that, the sense 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:36.240 of paternalism where they're they're social work, economic betters so called, 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.479 and we need to take care of them. That's our obligation. 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.520 Also though when when he's thinking about obtaining the trust. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.960 But I think I think there's something about Roosevelt that 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:53.280 is vaguely consulted, that that these that these titans, that 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:57.160 they should have so much just because they invented something 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.880 or they have a factory, And why should they have 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.760 so much say in our politics? Why should why should 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.880 they be able to put politicians in their pockets through 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.840 through through lobby. So I think he sincerely saw them 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.920 as something of a potential thread through public in a 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.400 different way, but not unlike say Jefferson with the First 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.200 National Bank and UNC Jackson with the Second National Bank, 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.879 looking at money congealing together and saying, if this continues, 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.159 this could be a real problem for the Republic moving forward. 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:38.320 So let's let's let's do this intellectual exercise. What would 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:44.200 Teddy be doing right now with the aim, with the 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.200 with the with with the AI technology that we're trying 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.159 to build, the infrastructure and the concentration of wealth that 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:52.359 we're experiencing at the moment. 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.200 I think if it was President's with AI, he would 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.000 want to harness AI. He would he would want to 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.000 use it to make you know, as as America as 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:07.119 powerful as possible. That would also tie him with the 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.200 second part of your question, because so these people who 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:15.119 have this this this uh, this resource, some of the billionaires, 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.560 I suspect that he would look upon them not unlike 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.760 he looked upon the the rich class of his own day, 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.520 which is they have a purpose. The purpose is to 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.200 continue to be patriotic and contribute to the growing wealth 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.920 of America. And they could have their nice houses and 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.960 and and and and and and whatnot. But but he 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.000 I think he would draw a real line uh at 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.679 the kind of influence that these people would have. So 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:49.280 I wouldn't see him inviting billionaires to be in his 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:50.840 official cabinet family. 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.480 And yet he's super transactional, particularly in foreign affairs. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:54.720 Right. 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:01.760 Yes, he's he's he's savvy. Uh. He looks to get 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:08.080 things done. He wants to build a canal. Not not 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.600 in Panama because there's no country in Panama, but there's 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:16.359 a province in Colombia. And when the Columbian Senate sort 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.840 of bulks a little bit on what was supposed to 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.720 be a done deal, then he will essentially, you know, 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:28.400 support a independence movement, which which would not have succeeded 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:29.440 with just. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.000 Let's just be let you're being a little gentle here. 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:36.240 He manufactures this movement in this separatist region called Panama 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.520 a little bit. There were certainly some independence people that 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:44.520 were but it you know, it's it was a pretext, right. 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.440 He sends ships and he sends men, and they will 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.399 support and in a sense, it's it's what John F. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.080 Kennedy tried and failed to. 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:56.040 Do with. 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:01.959 Uh, you know, the the Cubans the quote unquote lead it, 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.920 but there was American support, but there wasn't enough American support. 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:07.880 Rose Alt, I'm sure that there was more than enough 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:13.680 American support. So you're right, this is transactional here. He's 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.359 very happy to play both with Columbia. When Columbia wouldn't 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.400 play ball with him any longer, he gave Pen the ball. 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.640 Do you hate hangovers? We'll say goodbye to hangovers. 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Don't forget that code that's getsold dot Com 0:21:37.920 --> 0:22:01.000 promo code toodcast for thirty percent off. This is where, 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:07.840 you know, when you look deeper at Roosevelt's sort of 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:13.280 point of view and actions in the Western hemisphere actually 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:15.880 pale in comparisons to Trump's beltic. 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:17.959 You know it. 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.280 It was a different time, and so it's a period 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:27.480 when that type of American imperialism, the so called Banana 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.600 Republic era, is just beginning to take off. We had 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:35.240 this early phase of American form policy. You know, except 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:39.359 American Revolution, we're very Atlantic facing. And then you know, 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:41.359 by the time you get to the eighteen twenties, thirties 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:46.359 and forties and you're talking about bringing Florida and Texas 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:52.320 into the Union, then we become a golf golf of Mexico, 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.439 golf of America depends on who you talk to these days. 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:59.080 That becomes the focus of our foreign policy, and then 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:03.280 American it becomes this beginning of a global power in 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:08.520 the late nineteenth century with with with the acquisition Philippines 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:15.720 and whatnot. So the central in South America had always 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:20.320 been sort of an abstraction. There was the Monroe Doctrine, 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.760 but America didn't really have much power to police that. 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.560 There were there were there were various individual filibuster attempts 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:30.959 by American citizens with armies and whatnot private, although some 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:36.440 were sort of okay by congressman senators to cut out 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:41.720 parts of Central and South America. It's really not until 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:43.359 about nineteen hundred. 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:45.080 It's all through the nineteenth century. 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.880 I mean, look, there's a whole part in the Grand 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:52.960 Presidency where there's where a bunch of Republicans want Canada 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:56.680 as reparations for the UK's for Britain's role in the. 0:23:58.400 --> 0:23:59.160 In the Civil War. 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:00.360 Sure too. 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:02.280 I mean like it seems like we had all sorts 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.639 of ambitions to grab parts of the Western hemisphere in 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:07.000 the nineteenth century, right. 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:12.000 Yeah, and I got about one third of Mexico, so 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:14.840 with with Roosevelt, and I'd also extend this, you know, 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:19.399 to look at Woodrow Wilson. There then is is I 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:24.080 think I think more over not simply using filibusters or threads, 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:28.200