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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 1: You have heard me talk to via that history is rhyming,

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Speaker 1: that there's a familiarity in our recent history, early twentieth

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Speaker 1: century with what the current situation is.

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Speaker 2: We're in a we're in a we've got.

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Speaker 1: These big tech titans, we had the big robber barons.

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Speaker 1: And you've probably heard myself another say that, you know, boy,

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Speaker 1: the country really needs a Teddy Roosevelt. And what's fascinating

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Speaker 1: about Teddy Roosevelt is is that he's a Rorschach test.

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Speaker 1: If you're a liberal, you love certain parts of him.

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Speaker 1: If you're a conservative, you love other parts of him.

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Speaker 2: He is somebody.

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Speaker 1: He is like Lincoln in Washington and maybe to a

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Speaker 1: lesser extent, Eisenhower, where it's the rare biography you can write,

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Speaker 1: where there are interested people on the left and the right,

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Speaker 1: and there are people that are devoted to say, no,

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Speaker 1: he's really a progressive. No, he's really a conservative. He's

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Speaker 1: a disruptor, he's this, and Teddy is definitely one of those.

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Speaker 1: And let's just say I devour every Teddy Roosevelt book.

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Speaker 1: I think I've only read more Lincoln books than Teddy

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Speaker 1: Roosevelt books. He is clearly one of the most fascinating

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Speaker 1: Americans we've ever had. My guest today is David Brown.

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Speaker 1: He's got one of the more recent additions in the

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Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt Library, if you will, This is called in

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Speaker 1: the Arena, which of course is a homage to his

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Speaker 1: a Man in the Arena speech back in the day.

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Speaker 1: And this is a it is It is not just

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Speaker 1: the Teddy of the Roosevelt presidency or the Roosevelt this

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Speaker 1: it really is as much an attempt to capture the

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Speaker 1: zeitgeist and the culture that was Teddy, that inspired Teddy,

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Speaker 1: and the culture that he helped try to create and build.

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Speaker 1: So that's my intro, David hod I do my selling.

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Speaker 2: Your book pretty well?

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Speaker 3: Wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Yes, he's a magnet for historians like yourself, right, like

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Speaker 1: Teddy is, just there's in the only challenge I imagine

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Speaker 1: you had was writing something unique that others hadn't attempted.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're right, here's a magnet, not because not

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Speaker 3: just because it's an incredible life, really an incredible life,

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Speaker 3: but that life that tells us so much about America,

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Speaker 3: and I think what an a storying can bring to it.

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Speaker 3: You know, five years from out twenty five years amount

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Speaker 3: is the perspective of the culture. And so as you note,

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Speaker 3: you know there's something of the times in this book.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a life, but it's also at times,

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Speaker 3: and historians also bring, you know, additional perspective. They've seen

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Speaker 3: additional presidents, they've seen people use and the views rosual reputation.

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Speaker 3: We might read Roosevelt's actions differently in say nineteen fifty

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Speaker 3: or twenty twenty five than we would have in nineteen ten.

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Speaker 2: In the moment.

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Speaker 3: So in that sense, I think that there's almost always something,

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Speaker 3: something fresh, something interesting perspective that a storying can bring

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Speaker 3: to a topic.

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Speaker 1: How did you tackle this? I mean, there's, like I said,

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Speaker 1: there is so much incredible scholarship on Teddy. You know,

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Speaker 1: did you go how much core sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: back to letters and all of that sort of the

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Speaker 1: ground zero type research.

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Speaker 2: How much did you.

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Speaker 1: Either devour or avoid other takes on him?

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Speaker 2: What was your balance? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I read the major biographies, but made notes selectively because

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Speaker 3: I didn't want too much of the perspective to sink in,

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Speaker 3: And I focused most of my research on Roosevelt's writings, letters,

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Speaker 3: journals at the journal Pritt when he was younger, and

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Speaker 3: as many many books. He was a voluminous writer he wrote.

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Speaker 3: He wrote many books, and also the private papers, some

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Speaker 3: of the newspapers, the culturea miliar the people who knew him,

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Speaker 3: the people who loved him, the people who didn't love him,

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Speaker 3: because I wanted to get a broad sense. But the

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Speaker 3: man and the times, because I think that the two

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Speaker 3: go hand in hand.

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Speaker 1: I'm always curious of why an author chooses their subjects,

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Speaker 1: and more importantly, when they choose their subjects. Is there

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Speaker 1: something that was happening in the moment that made you

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Speaker 1: turn there and you realize I want to unpack this,

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Speaker 1: tell me walk me through. You've done a few other books,

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Speaker 1: and so what drew you to Roosevelt? And when did

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Speaker 1: you decide you wanted to tackle Teddy?

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Speaker 3: So about twenty or thirteen years ago I started an

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Speaker 3: a biography of Henry Adams and Henry Adams from the

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Speaker 3: Great Adams family. It was a neighbor of Roosevelt's in Washington.

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Speaker 3: Roosevelt was, of course living in the White House then

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Speaker 3: Henry Adams was living well what is now the Hay

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Speaker 3: Adams Hotel.

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Speaker 1: Right across the street, although I think it's technically the

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Speaker 1: building was across the street from the across the right. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: there's some yeah, there's some origin story of the hotel itself,

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Speaker 1: but yes, basically right there was those listed.

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Speaker 3: So they knew each other. And Henry Adams was generation older,

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Speaker 3: old money, like tr dry Wit, somewhat acerbic, and he

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Speaker 3: saw not unlike Mark Twain, he saw Roosevelt as something

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Speaker 3: of a big boy. Mark Twain said through to someone

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Speaker 3: said basically this is this is this is Tom Sawyer.

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Speaker 3: We have Tom Swear in the White House, and I

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Speaker 3: just found Roosevelts excuse me, Adams's take on Roosevelt so interesting,

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Speaker 3: so pungent, so provocative, and it kind of drew me in.

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Speaker 3: And also I think writing that biography of Henry Adams,

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Speaker 3: it drew me to the late nineteenth century. So I

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Speaker 3: was on my graduate work. I tend to focus on

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Speaker 3: America in the early Republic seventeen nineties, eighteen twenty, eighteen thirties,

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Speaker 3: and there was a lot there in the late nineteenth century.

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Speaker 3: Early wasn't aware of cultural history, intellectual history, so I

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Speaker 3: do Henry Adams. I'm thinking there's a lot there about

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Speaker 3: intellectual life at that time. Now I'm interested in the politics,

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Speaker 3: so I'd obviously read something. You know, some things about

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Speaker 3: Roosevelt before, but never systematic, never in depth, and so

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Speaker 3: I started to read just for my own curiosity. And

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Speaker 3: the deeper I got into it, the more I said

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Speaker 3: to myself, you know, I really want to write on

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Speaker 3: this guy. I want to write a biography. So it

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Speaker 3: was deep in COVID back in twenty twenty, and that's

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Speaker 3: when I started the project.

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Speaker 1: What makes Roosevelt so intriguing to me is like Lincoln

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Speaker 1: and Washington. He's a president. Like I said to a

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Speaker 1: lesser excent Eisenhower that anybody running for president, far left

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Speaker 1: or far right, moderate, centrist, you name it, would love

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Speaker 1: to be compared favorably to said president.

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Speaker 2: Right. And I have I've been having.

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Speaker 1: An uncomfortable intellectual exercise which that i've i'm and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to I'm this is with trepidation that I that

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Speaker 1: I tiptoe on this, which is Donald Trump and Teddy Roosevelt,

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Speaker 1: and the shocking amount of similarities that there are. There

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Speaker 1: are some important differences. And if you're a fan of

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Speaker 1: Teddy and not a fan of Trump, you probably recoil

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Speaker 1: at this. But you know, there's there's there is something

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Speaker 1: about Teddy in the time that he served of narcissism, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean the original great quote the bride at every

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Speaker 1: wedding and the and the corpse at every funeral was

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Speaker 1: about him, right, you know it was it was said

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Speaker 1: of him his daughter.

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Speaker 2: Right. What do you make of it?

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Speaker 1: And how much? How much do you see of it?

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Speaker 1: And how did you avoid it? How did you write

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Speaker 1: about it? You know, how did it? How did it

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Speaker 1: influence you?

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Speaker 3: Sure? I make some notes of this late in the book,

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Speaker 3: last pages. The narcissism was there. The question is how

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Speaker 3: do you deal with the narcissism and Roosevelt's it was

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Speaker 3: all about Roosevelt, but there was a sort of generosity

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Speaker 3: underlying Roosevelt, and that generosity I think really drew people

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Speaker 3: to him. Of course, Trump has a wide appeal as well.

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Speaker 3: Some of the similarities are a tremendous charisma on the

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Speaker 3: part of both men. The loyalists, they've really been loyalists

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Speaker 3: for both men. Roosevelt had a broader reach. Roosevelt got

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Speaker 3: I think like fifty six percent of the popular vote

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Speaker 3: in two thousand. Excuse me, the nineteen oh four acts.

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Speaker 1: An important point you made that I didn't fully appreciate

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Speaker 1: that it was. It was actually the most dominant vote

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Speaker 1: total we'd had really in the.

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Speaker 2: With the country that big at the time.

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Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. So he was really popular. He

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Speaker 3: could really cross over. Trump doesn't have the crossover appeal,

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Speaker 3: but to their loyalists, they could do no wrong. Roosevelts

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Speaker 3: was seen by party regulars in the GOP as being

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Speaker 3: a threat. You know, he was never supposed to be presidents.

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Speaker 3: He was a war hero, and they made him a veep,

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Speaker 3: and of course McKinley wasn't supposed to get shot and killed.

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Speaker 3: But then Rooseveald becomes presidents and he's so popular that

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Speaker 3: they can't do anything with him until Roosevelt decides that

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Speaker 3: he's going to leave after a couple of terms and

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Speaker 3: then once the crown back. And at that time, for

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Speaker 3: GP regulars, this sort of gave currency to their concerns

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Speaker 3: for the last few years that Roosevelt was a maverick,

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Speaker 3: he was a loose cannon, He could not be trusted

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Speaker 3: for party regularity, and they opposed him, and they were

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Speaker 3: able to essentially keep them from getting the nomination in

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Speaker 3: nineteen twelve, and in Roosevelt said that that this was stolen,

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Speaker 3: that the people wanted him, and of course he then

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Speaker 3: broke away from the party, which is said that Trump

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Speaker 3: had talked about doing in twenty sixty. If the GOP

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Speaker 3: at that time had kept the nomination from him.

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Speaker 2: Don't we credit Teddy with primaries?

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Speaker 1: Essentially that that that that that sort of it was

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Speaker 1: right after that that we I think Oregon had the

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Speaker 1: first presidential primary.

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Speaker 3: There were there were there were there were a few,

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Speaker 3: and they're about thirteen but in Reison actually got more

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Speaker 3: votes and delegates in these thirteen primaries, right the sitting

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Speaker 3: president did. And there's a number of reasons why these

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Speaker 3: these these these primaries would expand, but one was that

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Speaker 3: it was seen that that perhaps that people need to

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Speaker 3: have more say and we would look back to, for example,

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Speaker 3: nineteen twelve and say so, clearly the party wanted Taft

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Speaker 3: to get the nomination, but clearly most garden variety Republican

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Speaker 3: voters wanted Roosevelt.

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Speaker 1: It's obviously the era that I think makes this an

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Speaker 1: extra magnet for me right now. And there's always been

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Speaker 1: something about Teddy, did it take a rich guy to

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Speaker 1: go after rich guys?

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Speaker 2: Did it?

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Speaker 1: Meaning? You know that the progressive populist politics of that

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Speaker 1: era only gets traction when a rich guy turned on

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Speaker 1: rich guys.

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Speaker 2: That's too simplistic.

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Speaker 3: Not necessarily, he was a different kind of rich guy,

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Speaker 3: like Henry Adams.

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Speaker 1: Here was old money and inherited, inherited well, which is

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Speaker 1: always important. I always find it fascinating. I track I

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Speaker 1: love to see right now where billionaires go right, New

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Speaker 1: billionaires support Trump, Inherited billionaires support the.

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Speaker 2: Left right now. It's just an interesting era that we're

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Speaker 2: in yeah it is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So Roosevelt did not like new money. Roosevelt thought

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Speaker 3: that that that new money was essentially, you know, building

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Speaker 3: factories and whatnot, which he recognized the country needed if

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Speaker 3: it was going to be strong. But in his notion

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Speaker 3: of the string of his life, sitting in an office

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Speaker 3: all day just making money, there was nothing romantic, There

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Speaker 3: was nothing important about that. It's going to lead to

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Speaker 3: the country becoming soft and not sharp any longer. So

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Speaker 3: he did feel I think when he called, for example,

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Speaker 3: JP Morgan into the White House, that there was a

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Speaker 3: sense of superiority on his side in reading, in culture

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Speaker 3: and background. And if Morgan had a bit more money,

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Speaker 3: which of course he did, that was okay because because

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Speaker 3: Roosevelt had had some money too. But more important, I think,

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Speaker 3: I think Roosevelt thought that he Roosevelt understood how money

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Speaker 3: should be used, and people like this new rich they

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Speaker 3: liked imagination. They didn't know what was best for the country.

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Speaker 3: They only understood what was best for themselves.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think he had this this sense, because

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it because he went on his travels

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Speaker 1: or you know, he did seem to at least understand.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't concentrate this much power in the in in

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Speaker 1: with these the titans of that era. But was his

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Speaker 1: motivation because he didn't want them stronger than the government,

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Speaker 1: or was his motivation because the little guy was getting hurt?

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Speaker 3: I use all those things.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: He never called himself a populous and there was a

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Speaker 3: populist party at that time is it Gradon farmers, And

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Speaker 3: he thought that they were just radical and vaguely ridiculous,

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Speaker 3: But there was a populistic bone in Roosevelt. He wrote

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Speaker 3: to John Hey, the Secretary of State, after he Roosevelt

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Speaker 3: had toured the country, and he said, you know, seeing

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Speaker 3: these these common people out there who were standing in

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Speaker 3: you know, by a train stession for two hours in

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Speaker 3: the wintertime, you know, waiting to Henry talk. Uh, they're

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Speaker 3: so sincere, there's so there's such hard workers. You know,

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Speaker 3: we we we need to we need to do right

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Speaker 3: by these people. He did believe that, he did believe

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Speaker 3: that he that the presidency, that the government had a

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Speaker 3: responsibility the people. So there was something also, I think

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Speaker 3: a little bit of old money about that, the sense

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Speaker 3: of paternalism where they're they're social work, economic betters so called,

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Speaker 3: and we need to take care of them. That's our obligation.

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Speaker 3: Also though when when he's thinking about obtaining the trust.

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Speaker 3: But I think I think there's something about Roosevelt that

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Speaker 3: is vaguely consulted, that that these that these titans, that

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Speaker 3: they should have so much just because they invented something

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Speaker 3: or they have a factory, And why should they have

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Speaker 3: so much say in our politics? Why should why should

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Speaker 3: they be able to put politicians in their pockets through

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Speaker 3: through through lobby. So I think he sincerely saw them

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Speaker 3: as something of a potential thread through public in a

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Speaker 3: different way, but not unlike say Jefferson with the First

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Speaker 3: National Bank and UNC Jackson with the Second National Bank,

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Speaker 3: looking at money congealing together and saying, if this continues,

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Speaker 3: this could be a real problem for the Republic moving forward.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's let's do this intellectual exercise. What would

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Speaker 1: Teddy be doing right now with the aim, with the

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Speaker 1: with the with with the AI technology that we're trying

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Speaker 1: to build, the infrastructure and the concentration of wealth that

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Speaker 1: we're experiencing at the moment.

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Speaker 3: I think if it was President's with AI, he would

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Speaker 3: want to harness AI. He would he would want to

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Speaker 3: use it to make you know, as as America as

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Speaker 3: powerful as possible. That would also tie him with the

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Speaker 3: second part of your question, because so these people who

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Speaker 3: have this this this uh, this resource, some of the billionaires,

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Speaker 3: I suspect that he would look upon them not unlike

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Speaker 3: he looked upon the the rich class of his own day,

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Speaker 3: which is they have a purpose. The purpose is to

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Speaker 3: continue to be patriotic and contribute to the growing wealth

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Speaker 3: of America. And they could have their nice houses and

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Speaker 3: and and and and and and whatnot. But but he

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Speaker 3: I think he would draw a real line uh at

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Speaker 3: the kind of influence that these people would have. So

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't see him inviting billionaires to be in his

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Speaker 3: official cabinet family.

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Speaker 1: And yet he's super transactional, particularly in foreign affairs.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he's he's he's savvy. Uh. He looks to get

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Speaker 3: things done. He wants to build a canal. Not not

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Speaker 3: in Panama because there's no country in Panama, but there's

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Speaker 3: a province in Colombia. And when the Columbian Senate sort

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Speaker 3: of bulks a little bit on what was supposed to

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Speaker 3: be a done deal, then he will essentially, you know,

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Speaker 3: support a independence movement, which which would not have succeeded

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Speaker 3: with just.

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Speaker 1: Let's just be let you're being a little gentle here.

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Speaker 1: He manufactures this movement in this separatist region called Panama

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Speaker 1: a little bit. There were certainly some independence people that

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Speaker 1: were but it you know, it's it was a pretext, right.

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Speaker 3: He sends ships and he sends men, and they will

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Speaker 3: support and in a sense, it's it's what John F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy tried and failed to.

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Speaker 2: Do with.

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Speaker 3: Uh, you know, the the Cubans the quote unquote lead it,

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Speaker 3: but there was American support, but there wasn't enough American support.

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Speaker 3: Rose Alt, I'm sure that there was more than enough

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Speaker 3: American support. So you're right, this is transactional here. He's

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Speaker 3: very happy to play both with Columbia. When Columbia wouldn't

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Speaker 3: play ball with him any longer, he gave Pen the ball.

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Speaker 1: you know, when you look deeper at Roosevelt's sort of

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Speaker 1: point of view and actions in the Western hemisphere actually

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Speaker 1: pale in comparisons to Trump's beltic.

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Speaker 2: You know it.

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Speaker 3: It was a different time, and so it's a period

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Speaker 3: when that type of American imperialism, the so called Banana

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Speaker 3: Republic era, is just beginning to take off. We had

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Speaker 3: this early phase of American form policy. You know, except

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Speaker 3: American Revolution, we're very Atlantic facing. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: by the time you get to the eighteen twenties, thirties

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Speaker 3: and forties and you're talking about bringing Florida and Texas

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Speaker 3: into the Union, then we become a golf golf of Mexico,

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Speaker 3: golf of America depends on who you talk to these days.

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Speaker 3: That becomes the focus of our foreign policy, and then

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Speaker 3: American it becomes this beginning of a global power in

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Speaker 3: the late nineteenth century with with with the acquisition Philippines

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Speaker 3: and whatnot. So the central in South America had always

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Speaker 3: been sort of an abstraction. There was the Monroe Doctrine,

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Speaker 3: but America didn't really have much power to police that.

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Speaker 3: There were there were there were various individual filibuster attempts

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Speaker 3: by American citizens with armies and whatnot private, although some

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Speaker 3: were sort of okay by congressman senators to cut out

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Speaker 3: parts of Central and South America. It's really not until

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Speaker 3: about nineteen hundred.

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Speaker 2: It's all through the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's a whole part in the Grand

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Speaker 1: Presidency where there's where a bunch of Republicans want Canada

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Speaker 1: as reparations for the UK's for Britain's role in the.

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Speaker 2: In the Civil War.

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Speaker 3: Sure too.

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Speaker 1: I mean like it seems like we had all sorts

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Speaker 1: of ambitions to grab parts of the Western hemisphere in

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I got about one third of Mexico, so

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Speaker 3: with with Roosevelt, and I'd also extend this, you know,

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Speaker 3: to look at Woodrow Wilson. There then is is I

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Speaker 3: think I think more over not simply using filibusters or threads,

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Speaker 3: but actually you know, going into countries and and and

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Speaker 3: putting putting some teeth into the Monroe doctrine.

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Speaker 1: Well, and that was the thing I mean he almost

404
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Speaker 1: wanted to. I mean it was interesting you used a phrase.

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Speaker 1: I think he viewed it as a police you know,

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Speaker 1: he wanted to police the governments in the Western hemisphere,

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Speaker 1: you know, know what was going on, right, And it

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Speaker 1: was almost the first use of the idea that we're

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Speaker 1: going to be the global police force.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, so I think that there Bracklin Roosevelts

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Speaker 3: related distantly, sort of get the credit for the American

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Speaker 3: century and for this notion of when the Second World

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Speaker 3: War's over, regard to the four policemen, you know, sort

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Speaker 3: of take care of the world. And I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of these ideas, including the social welfare state with

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Speaker 3: the progressive here under results. I think actually the antecedents

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Speaker 3: are there around nineteen five, nineteen ten. It's a result,

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Speaker 3: but it's with the different Roosevelt. And so certainly, you know,

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Speaker 3: Roosevelt have been the top cop in New York when

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Speaker 3: he was a commissioner, and he took policing very seriously.

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Speaker 3: He applies the concept not just to you know, a

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Speaker 3: city or a state, but to an entire country. The

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Speaker 3: countries will not live up to the obligations, he said,

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Speaker 3: the name must be, they must be policed. Of course,

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Speaker 3: what we know is happening here also is that there's

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Speaker 3: a game that's being played by European countries as well,

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Speaker 3: which is to get some of these but in American

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Speaker 3: countries into debts and then it would be made to

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Speaker 3: pay by for example, leasing a ports, we're opening up markets,

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Speaker 3: and Roosevelt was very very quick to ensure that, for

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Speaker 3: example Great Britain and in Germany, we're not going to

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Speaker 3: be effective of doing that, violating the minor doctrine. But

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Speaker 3: it was also tactic, as you suggested, that he from

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Speaker 3: time to time employed as well.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to his days in New

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Speaker 1: York politics, because that was a very machine heavy wing

437
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: of the Republican Party in the eighteen eighties in the

438
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: eighteen nineties. Was he seen as a good party man

439
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: in the eighteen eighties and nineties because he was connected

440
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: to wealthy patrons of Manhattan, or was he already being

441
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: identified as a bit of a disruptor inside the party.

442
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: He was always a bit of a disruptor. He was

443
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 3: connected to wealthy people in New York. But many of

444
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 3: these wealthy people, including must of the people in his

445
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 3: Graderroting class at Harvard, thought he was nuts for getting

446
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 3: involved in politics, at least politics at the local level.

447
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 3: If somebody wants to bring you into their cabinet and

448
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: make you Secretary of States. Well, then what kind of

449
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: a service. But Rosewock came in at the low end,

450
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 3: and he was questioned about this some of his friends,

451
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: and he said, you know, either I'm going to be

452
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 3: part of the willing class or I'm not, and I

453
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 3: aim to be part of the ruling class. In other words,

454
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: the ruling class had been losing its share ever since

455
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: whenever under eighteen twenty eighteen thirty to Patricius right, And

456
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 3: so Roosevelt is going to in effect try to reassert

457
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 3: that no bless oblige do so in democratic age, Well,

458
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 3: you've got to you got to get involved. He gets involved,

459
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: but he was not. He was not a great party man.

460
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 3: There's a maverick. There was a lot of talk in

461
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty four about the Republican Party's presidential candidate, James G. Blaine,

462
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 3: as someone had the continental liar from the state of Maine,

463
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 3: very controversial, reputed to be the dirty politician, had taken bribes,

464
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 3: and so Roosevelt fought very hard as a young man

465
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: to try to stop that nomination, and of course he

466
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 3: couldn't at that time, but there was real question would

467
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 3: you stay with the party or would you bolt And

468
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: Roosel understood that if you bolt it, if he was

469
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 3: not regular, then he would have really no chance. There

470
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: was no way he was going to become a Democrat.

471
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: At that time. The Democrat Party in the North was

472
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: associated with with with the immigrants, with Irish. The South

473
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: was associated with with with secession. And so he swallowed

474
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: real hard and he became a regular politician in eighteen

475
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: eighty four, and he gave campaign speeches on behalf of Blaine.

476
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 3: But that was of the moment that was opportunistic, and

477
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: he was always free. He thought to go his own way,

478
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: and sometimes he did.

479
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: Maybe this is the fault of some of the educators

480
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: I have, but I've always tied William Jennings Bryan and

481
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: Roosevelt oddly more together than separate. And yet they were

482
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: on opposing tickets. Right, What did you think of William

483
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: Jennings Bryan.

484
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 3: So he was not a big Brian fan, probably for

485
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 3: a few reasons, some would be political. He just didn't

486
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: like Brian's politics. Brian was a populist. He was also

487
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 3: a Democrat. Brian was concerned with, for example, enlarging the

488
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 3: country's money supply with free silver. Roosevelt's on the East coast,

489
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: it's the gold Stan and all the way. And so

490
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 3: O'Brien represents two conservatives. And we were talking earlier about

491
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes Rooselt's progressive and sometimes he's a conservative.

492
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: He was bearing a conservative on Brian, who he thought

493
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: was just you know, this kind of you know, was

494
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: going to make the French Revolution happen in America, was

495
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: going to attack the money supply, and and representing a group,

496
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: you know, American farmers who Roosevelt respected but did not

497
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 3: really take seriously as as being a part of part

498
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: of the ruling class. They had their place, they should vote,

499
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: and they should love like like Roosevelt. I wonder if

500
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: Roosevelt also, you know, we think of Roosevelt being so young,

501
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 3: the youngest American president, Brian was actually just a little

502
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: bit younger. He was the boy orator. I always wondering

503
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: if there was a part of Roosevelt. It was vaguely

504
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: jealous that Roosevelt didn't have a great speaking voice, could

505
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: get a good speech, great speaking voice, and here's Brian

506
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 3: just wonderful. He would have been on radio at a

507
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: different time or television and really give a speech, if

508
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: you know Brian's because this cross of gold speech you gave,

509
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: there was at a little bit of jealousy that here was

510
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: this younger man who had these qualities that he aspired

511
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 3: to have himself.

512
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: You know, by the way, I'm really taken with the

513
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: cover of your book because of the it feels like

514
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: an authentic photo.

515
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: I'm assuming it's not in that it's colorized. It is colorist, right,

516
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: but it has this just wonderful right.

517
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: And you just brought up something that I think is

518
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I like to say is,

519
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: you know about certain people that run for president in

520
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: the modern era, boy, they'd have made a great nineteenth

521
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: century president, meaning when you didn't need this sort of

522
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: public oratory or the public charisma. And here's Teddy Roosevelt

523
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: thought of it as this incredibly charismatic president, larger than

524
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: life figure. Would he have been an nobody in the

525
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: TV the TV era?

526
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, it's hard to answer because I'm not

527
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 3: sure how the charisma translates. RW again, didn't have a

528
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: great projecting voice, the ponds neck glasses, I'm not sure

529
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: about that. Wasn't a particularly tall man. And sometimes you

530
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: you kind of look back at those photographs and you

531
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 3: see him as a forty year old officer in the

532
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: Spanish American War, and he just doesn't maybe maybe look like,

533
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: I don't know, Douglas MacArthur, you know, with.

534
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: No, he doesn't that right, Yeah, the square jo.

535
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: So so it is it is a real question. Uh,

536
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: And I guess to answer your question, I don't know

537
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: if that, if all that would have translated particularly well.

538
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 3: He was very well read, He was a thoughtful man.

539
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: He was an intellectual one. Is America ever been in

540
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: love with people who have demonstrated intellectual qualities? Uh, that's

541
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 3: pretty tough to come up with. It's possible, though, that

542
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: his argumentative skills and debates would have caught people's eye.

543
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: It's also possible that because people who went to see

544
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: him live they said, wow, you know, there's.

545
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: Good always really good reactions, right, Yeah.

546
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: There were there were good reactions there.

547
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

548
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 3: So I wouldn't I wouldn't count him out.

549
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: One of the other points you make that I thought,

550
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: frankly it was one of those I'm my boy, there's

551
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: a whole book in here was the how Roosevelt's presidency

552
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: was sort of the first one you know, Lincoln challenged

553
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: the supremacy of Congress for obvious reasons during the Civil War.

554
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: But the but the sort of the strong presidency versus

555
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: the strong legislative branch. You know, the last time there

556
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: was big fights like that was you had to go

557
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: back to Andrew Jackson, and you were sort of painting

558
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: a picture that Roosevelt in many ways was, you know,

559
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: sort of certainly in the twentieth century, and now in hindsight,

560
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: looks like he laid the groundwork for a strong the

561
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: strong executive that we're now used to today. And in

562
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: many ways he epitomized this.

563
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, it.

564
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 3: Was semichael an imperial presidency, and it.

565
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: Was the big the what realistically really kind of in

566
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: hindsight now the first of its kind, right.

567
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 3: And I think I think what makes it unique is

568
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 3: that you mentioned you mentioned Andrew Jackson back in the day,

569
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 3: and even Lincoln a little bit later, nobody really had

570
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 3: the kind of force and power that Roosevelt had. The

571
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: country had obviously grown great development, including industrial development, and

572
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 3: so Jackson and Lincoln were primarily presidents of groaring republics,

573
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 3: and Roosevelt was a president of a country tree that

574
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 3: was industrializing, and that was urbanizing. We just become an

575
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 3: overseas imperial power. And that means that how the presidency

576
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: is also going to increase. There's more resources, there's a

577
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: bigger military, there's more money available. And this can give

578
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: someone who's interested and not necessarily expand the part of

579
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 3: the presidency just to do it, or to challenge the constitution,

580
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 3: but to project, say his vision about what America should

581
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: look like, or the fruition of America. If you don't

582
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: have a real strong congress or court system, then with

583
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: those advantages, that president can really push things. And it

584
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: doesn't come just with the times. The individual is also important,

585
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: because we don't talk about McKinley that way. We don't

586
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 3: talk about William Howard Taff that way, and if we

587
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 3: talk about Wilson that way, Wilson came from a southern state,

588
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 3: troits tradition would allow Wilson to and some wadys expand

589
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: the power of the presidency. Not unlike Lincoln. He was

590
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 3: involved in a great war.

591
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: Right, you point out something, and I remember this being

592
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: I remember reading something about Bill Clinton feeling this way

593
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: after nine to eleven, that he lamented that his presidency

594
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: was too peaceful and too prosperous, right, Like he didn't

595
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: he didn't have a moment where he could have made history, right.

596
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: You know, there's always the debate, right, do the men

597
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: make the history or just the history make the men

598
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: right type of thing. And you write something similar about

599
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: Woodrow Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt that there was a jealousy

600
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: of sorts that Wilson, you know that he didn't get

601
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: a chance to lead. But here's the thing, Like he

602
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: ran for president in nineteen twelve. You know he could

603
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: get elected in nineteen twelve and in theory have been

604
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: president during World War One. Give you know, I'm a

605
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 1: big fan of alternative histories. That's a that's a sliding door,

606
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: that's not unrealistic. Teddy Roosevelt as president at the start

607
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: of the Great War, does America get in sooner or later?

608
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: Or is it just different rhetoric but same same basic result.

609
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 3: I think that he begins to arm the country in

610
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 3: a percadials campaign. I would guess pretty much right away,

611
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: like in late nineteen fourteen, whereas the Wilson administration waited

612
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: until he's say hunting right, And I think unless the

613
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 3: Germans had sort of pulled back on unrestricted summon warfare.

614
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: I mean they did, but then by nineteen seventeen they

615
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 3: they put it back in play. I think Roosevelt I

616
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 3: could see Roosevelt administration going to war in nineteen fifteen

617
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 3: unless the German government recognized this guy's real serious, this

618
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 3: guy will do it, and then completely, you know, leaving

619
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 3: Americans alone. And then I wonder in that context if

620
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 3: Roosevelt would have found ways too, for example, aid the Allies,

621
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 3: even with the United States wasn't part of the Allied cause,

622
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: of course you could do so saying we're neutral country

623
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: and we can trade with who we want to. In

624
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: that sense, it would not have been much different than

625
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 3: occurred under Wilson's presidency, which is that billions went to

626
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 3: the Allies and millions went to the Germans. But I

627
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: think we would have been in the war earlier.

628
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: That's my initial instinct when even asking you the question,

629
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: was I assume he gets us in earlier.

630
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: Is it you know?

631
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: Do you know does the groundwork for the United Nations

632
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: get laid if there's a Roosevelt presidency in the teens

633
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: rather than a Wilson presidency.

634
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: You know, it's possible because Roosevelt really came to loathe Wilson,

635
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 3: and so anything that Wilson proposed, Roosevelt was going to

636
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: are you againsting He.

637
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: Wasn't alone among conservatives both of that era and of

638
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: today when it comes to Wilson.

639
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 2: I guess.

640
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 3: And so when when Wilson proposes the League of Nations,

641
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: tr really attacks.

642
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,479
Speaker 2: It, of course, right, But one can.

643
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 3: Imagine that that Roosevelt would have loved to have had

644
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 3: the world stage, and if he had been in power,

645
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 3: one could easily imagine that he would have made some

646
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 3: proposal for this great, huge crusade which is world peace. Well, actually,

647
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: you know, that's sort of what Wilson was asking for

648
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: the war to end all wars. One can imagine Roosevelt's

649
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 3: sort of adopting like rhetorick and the like mission. I

650
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 3: can't remember who it was, but the research one of

651
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: contemporaries said the other thing that really bothered Roosevelt was

652
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 3: that Wilson was doing things that that Rooselt would have

653
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 3: loved to have done, including including go to Congress and

654
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 3: give the Stay of the Union address, which which was

655
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 3: just like habitually just sort of like delivered this this

656
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 3: big long paper and now here's Wilson going to Congress

657
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 3: and delivering it. And of course you know, now once

658
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: a year that's what we do. We sit around our

659
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: TVs and whatnot, and we've watched rallies depending upon office,

660
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 3: and I think not unlike Roosevelt's relationship to Brian, there

661
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: was a little bit of jealousy in Roosevelt's reaction and

662
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: some criticism to Wilson.

663
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from

664
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,799
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665
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Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in

666
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667
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668
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669
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Speaker 1: one life.

670
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Speaker 2: Insurance policy that we found.

671
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Speaker 1: It wasn't a lot, but it was important at the time,

672
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673
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Speaker 1: Little did he know how important that would be in

674
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675
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676
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689
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693
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694
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695
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: life insurance is something you should really think about, especially

696
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: if you've got a growing family. Part of the reason

697
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: I think the presidency had a chance to sort of

698
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: dominate Congress's Congress was pretty evenly divided. That was another

699
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: mark of similarity between the era we live in now

700
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: in the air then, is that we were in the

701
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: middle of a political realignment. Back then, we just didn't

702
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: fully realize that. You know, that's the beauty of historians

703
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: like yourself, Right, you can oh, well, that was the

704
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: middle of a political realignment. Well at the moment, people

705
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: didn't realize it. Right, I always say that about the

706
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: moment we're living in. I'm like, you know, we think

707
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: every election is this permanent you know picture of a coalition.

708
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: I mean I watched these people going the Trump coalition.

709
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, on one day, Trump had these voters

710
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: and there's a whole bunch of.

711
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: People that literally the next day might not have voted

712
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: that way.

713
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 1: Like, this is a more fluid situation than we give

714
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: it credit for. But as you went through in writing

715
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: this book, you know, how much did it echo with

716
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: the current era? In your mind as you were writing.

717
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,959
Speaker 3: You know, I think back to nineteen hundred and nineteen five,

718
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 3: anxiety about where the country's moving, anxiety about forign policy.

719
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: We were just entering a phase where we were going

720
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 3: to become an imperial power, which seemed to contradict our history, right,

721
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 3: I mean, the United States was born in a great

722
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 3: anti colonial rebellion. We identified ourselves as the world's leader

723
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: against colonization. And now with the war against Spain, you know,

724
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 3: there's Hawaii, there's the Philippines.

725
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 1: There's suddenly acquiring territory. And this was quite a This

726
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: was a something we hadn't really done since Mexico, I

727
00:43:58,880 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: guess exactly.

728
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: And then you know, I'm thinking, you know, we're industrializing,

729
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: there's monopolies, there's a need for reform. This would become

730
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: the progressive era. There's the populist Party. These farmers in

731
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 3: the frontier, hitherto the bone and sinew, the backbone of

732
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 3: the country. The here's the textbooks, the agrarians. If you

733
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 3: were a president back in their own republic and you

734
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 3: were listing what you did for a living, you would

735
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 3: check I was a farmer. Of course, farmers are are

736
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 3: the best people. So the American identity is undergoing a

737
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 3: great change. Some people would argue of last twenty five

738
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: years or so from policy AI dot com billionaires, the

739
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 3: American identity is undergoing a great change, and so in

740
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: times of uncertainty, one might rebel against the existing structure.

741
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 3: In nineteen you know, term the century, it wasn't that

742
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 3: that people dumped the Republican Party, but in a sense

743
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 3: and latched on under Roosevelt. They latched onto a maverick

744
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 3: within the party who was never within the good graces

745
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 3: of the party's old guard. One could say that Trump

746
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 3: is a transactional Republican and was quite willing to go

747
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: his own way. So he said maybe in twenty sixteen

748
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 3: and run a third party candidcy, which is what Rooseveldt did,

749
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 3: And so the party sort of, you know, went with

750
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 3: him whenever he was in power. And when Roosevelt was

751
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: in power, the old guard went with him too. But

752
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 3: when Roosevelt left, they quickly moved on to Taft.

753
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 1: So what's the lesson there, because that's fascinating to me too,

754
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: And I feel like the McKinley wing of the party

755
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: took back control of the party by nineteen twenty right,

756
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: and Harding and Coolidge were really more Republicans in the

757
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: style of your McKinley's or your Tafts less So a

758
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: Roosevelt is that is that foreshadowing what we should expect

759
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: inside this Publican party as they move forward post Rum.

760
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 3: It's hard to say, because on one hand, there's just there's

761
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 3: just politics, right, sure, and so and so even even

762
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 3: if I'm the old guard, you know, and we look

763
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: like we've got control this year, there's there's there's elections coming,

764
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: and if you want to stand power, you have to

765
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: win elections. And so, on one hand, it would be

766
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 3: easy to say, yeah, I can imagine that. Uh you know,

767
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 3: when when when Thrumbs gone the cult to Christma, that's

768
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 3: there that that the Republican Party is going to look

769
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 3: quite a bit different. Maybe so perhaps, But on another hand,

770
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 3: you have to win elections, and so what are the

771
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 3: voters pushing for? What are the voters demanding? And in

772
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 3: nineteen twenties, you know, even though farmers had are difficult,

773
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 3: there was a booming stock market. The standard living kept increasing,

774
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: and so there were Republicans who who might you know,

775
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 3: in their library have a couple of books by rosewant

776
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 3: say Roosevelt. It's great, Roosevelt's my hero, and I I'm

777
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 3: supporting the results because I'm voting for Republicans. But really

778
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: they might be supporting a Republican party that was antithetical

779
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 3: to Roosevelt. They can't necessarily see the difference because it's

780
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,959
Speaker 3: party labels. They're voting the pocketbook. They feel good.

781
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: About this.

782
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 3: With us, It's not exactly clear where some of these

783
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 3: Republican voters might go after Trump, and that depends upon

784
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 3: all kinds of things, the future of the economy, the

785
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 3: future of how the things that been happening the last year.

786
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 3: So i'll jart in playouts. This year we have elections,

787
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 3: and in three years and moving forward. So wow, it's

788
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 3: a steal. It's a hard question to answer.

789
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: Well, I'd like to actually spend the next five or

790
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 1: so minutes here as we wrap up, talking about another

791
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: book you wrote, which has to do with moderates. It's

792
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: called The Vital Center of American Politics from the Founding

793
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: to Today. And I look at these two books, right

794
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: wrote about Teddy and he wrote that book, and it

795
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: tells me you sort of which is why, frankly, I

796
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: was why I wanted you on, because I sort of

797
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: I always say I'm not a liberal or conservative. I'm

798
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: an incrementalist, and that I'm a believer that ultimately, like

799
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: you know, we have you know, whenever we incrementally move,

800
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: it's on solid footing. It takes you know, and it's incremental. Right,

801
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: So security is the best example of incrementalism that over

802
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 1: time takes root and then it becomes something something more

803
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: permanent to many people.

804
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: When you view the.

805
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: Center of American politics, do you view it in terms

806
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: of the middle ground between left and right or do

807
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: you view it more in terms of how I describe,

808
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: which is it's not whether I have some views I'm

809
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: very progressive, some views I'm very conservative, but ultimately I

810
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: come down as an incrementalist. Some might call that a pragmatist.

811
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: However you want to view it. What do you view

812
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: as the center of American politics? Is it ideological or

813
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: is it really more about how you practice politics?

814
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 3: Let me tell you practice politics. You could be you know,

815
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, to be a Democrat in nineteen

816
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: thirty five, it's much different than to be a Democrat

817
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five. And the party's origins are actually

818
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 3: I think the protection the institution slavery are these forms

819
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 3: in the seventeen nineties, principally by the efforts of Jefferson

820
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 3: and Madison. For parties to be successful, they have to

821
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 3: attract coalitions and people, and so that's where I think

822
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: of moderation, That's where I think of connecting with voters

823
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 3: and if you're too far on the right. I think,

824
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 3: if you're too far on the left, you're not gonna

825
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: be able to do that effectively. You'll have your hardcore,

826
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 3: you know, enough to lose elections respectively. But that's not

827
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 3: the name of the game. And so you know, when i'

828
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: I think of the two major parties and I look

829
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 3: at some of the rhetoric, I can usually find some

830
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 3: appeal at a center, and sometimes it's a big appeal,

831
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 3: and sometimes maybe now, for example, it's not such a

832
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 3: big appeal. And when I don't see the appeal to

833
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: the center, that gives them suggestion that that party may

834
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 3: not be very successful.

835
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: And the next select you know, I answer this question

836
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: people are I had a student in a class I

837
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: teach currently was asking me why the Democrats come across

838
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: as mushier than the Republicans, And to me, it's a

839
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: matt I always say, well, there's your answer is a

840
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: mathic problem, meaning there are more base Republicans and based Democrats,

841
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: and so the path to fifty percent plus one for

842
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: a Republican allows them to be more conservative than the

843
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: path to fifty percent plus one. And this is generic.

844
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: You know, in certain places it's blue and you can.

845
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: You can do this, but the Democrats need more of

846
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: these moderates to get to fifty percent plus one. By

847
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: the way, this was reversed right when you and I

848
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: were growing up in the sixty seventies and eighties.

849
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 2: You could argue it the other way.

850
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: The Republicans right where they considered more of the centrist party,

851
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: well they didn't. They had a smaller base. The Democrats

852
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: at the larger base, so the Democrats didn't have to

853
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: you know it always I always was trying to tell

854
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: the student, Look, it's just a numbers game.

855
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 2: You know.

856
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: Parties aren't centrists because they want to be Parties reach

857
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: out to the center out of necessity, right, not out

858
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: of so in looking at that, there's clearly a vacuum, right,

859
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: there's a We always say there's this vast middle of

860
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: America in some of us want to believe it's between

861
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: the thirty yard lines.

862
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 2: Is it is that correct?

863
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: Or how should we describe the vast moderate center of

864
00:51:58,200 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: the American electorate?

865
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 3: You know, I think that's one of the great narratives

866
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 3: that's been out there for at least the last half century.

867
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: I think back, for example, to Richard Nixon, the forgotten American.

868
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's it's it's about recognizing you can't reach

869
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 3: these people unless you recognize that they're there, that that

870
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 3: they're not going to automatically vote for you, automatically not

871
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 3: vote for you. And so I I, you know, I

872
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 3: look at the hardcore voters on both sides and what

873
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 3: always interests me though, is that who's available, who is

874
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 3: in play, And it seems to me that that's that's

875
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: who you need to go after. That that, to me,

876
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 3: that's that's the art of politics, which is which is

877
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 3: building coalitions, big tents. And you obviously have to do

878
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 3: this because if you if you're in a country our

879
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 3: size and you only have two major parties, well.

880
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: I think that's the flawed our system right there, is

881
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: that we're trying. Can you imagine going to a clothing

882
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: store and they're only being small and extra large, And

883
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: that's what we've done to you know. And you know,

884
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: I think people sit there and say, yeah, I'm registered

885
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: as a Republican, but the Republicans don't represent everything I believe,

886
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 1: Or I'm registered as a Democrat, but the Democrats don't

887
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: represent everything I believe. That if we had, you know,

888
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: if we had more parties and no majority, and no

889
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: party had to get a majority to get power, but

890
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: you had to form a coalition. I mean, in some ways,

891
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: I always say, both parties are coalitions. Are not parties,

892
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: They're coalitions of multiple sub parties. Right, there's a there's

893
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: a Christian Conservative party, there's a business party. Right all

894
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: on the right, there's a progressive you know, you could

895
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: put together your different pieces of each you know, basically

896
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: multiple political parties within this umbrella group called.

897
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: The left and the right.

898
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: You know, look, I will I will admit, well, I

899
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 1: don't want us to be a parliamentary system. I do

900
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: wish we had a system that allowed for parties to

901
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: be more representative of where people wanted to be. But

902
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: you but you had sort of top four, right, we

903
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: had four major We're really I think we're really four

904
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: major political parties stuffed into two.

905
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, well it's it's obviously it's a very diverse country.

906
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 3: And I think some of the difficulty in going after

907
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 3: the center is you don't want to alienate certain coalitions within.

908
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 2: Your coaches.

909
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 3: And and uh, obviously if you do that, there's there's

910
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 3: there's the fear of alienation. But you know, there's also

911
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 3: the question of do you want to government from fear?

912
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 3: Do you want to do you want to try to

913
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 3: gain things all the time. So if I could do

914
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 3: in one more result reference and this guy really was

915
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 3: a romantic and he wasn't thinking about, you know, sort

916
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 3: of electoral votes, and he wasn't counting. He was really

917
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 3: leading from his heart. And maybe this is romantic than

918
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 3: to say, but I think if we had more of that,

919
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 3: I think voters would really resonate to someone who they

920
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 3: thought was speaking directly to them, was mostly sincere and

921
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 3: believed that we all had something in stake together. It

922
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 3: wasn't Jovis reading spreadsheets.

923
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 1: As a historian who's a president, we don't have enough

924
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: scholarship on that. You wish people would spend more time

925
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: getting to know deserves the better biography treatment. You know,

926
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: I used to say I felt like Eisenhower was under scholarship,

927
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: and that's changed. I'd argain in the last twenty years

928
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 1: we've gotten the proper what I think is a proper

929
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 1: amount of historians tackling him in different ways, which feel

930
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,839
Speaker 1: there's some people that are overwritten about, like Kennedy, And I.

931
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: Say this with no disrespect.

932
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: They just you know, I get why, what does it

933
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: because of the circumstances of his death. But I'm curious

934
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: because I still actually think there are more things to

935
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,439
Speaker 1: learn about Teddy. So I'm not saying this to say, hey,

936
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: we've you know, we've had too much on Teddy. Don't agree.

937
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: I think not enough sometimes still there. But who's somebody

938
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: that he thinks a bit under represented in your ranks

939
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: of the historians? Now you like to see tackled.

940
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I net sure to see some aspects of James

941
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 3: Munroe's presidency looked at more carefully. So this is kind

942
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 3: of going way back. But you know, he was the

943
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 3: last president to here knee breeches, and so we're really

944
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 3: moving from.

945
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: You use that phrase, and can I make a confession.

946
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: When you use the phrase the first time, I'm like,

947
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: what the hell are knee bridges? So I literally the

948
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: old I hadn't done this in a while where I

949
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: did the old? Okay, I gotta I gotta go look

950
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: up what that is. You know, you know when as

951
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: a kid, you know you're reading books that are a

952
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: little ahead of your time, you're constantly doing that.

953
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 3: I had done that.

954
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 2: I was like Neighbridge. Oh knee britches, got it? Okay?

955
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 3: Sorry, so very eighteenth century.

956
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 2: Yes, it is.

957
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 3: Simun wrote as this transitional figure, right, I mean he

958
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 3: was a founder, he was it was neighbors.

959
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: He was the last founder president, right, I would say so, yeah.

960
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 3: John Quincy Adams follows him. But John Quincy Adams was

961
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 3: a bored in the revolution, right, And we're moving into

962
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 3: what would be called machine politics, and Monroe sort of

963
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,439
Speaker 3: resisted that. Monroe wanted to push what he once called

964
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 3: amalgamation politics, which is we need to go back to

965
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 3: where there are no parties. There's just essentially, you know,

966
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 3: Americans in governments and we're not federalists and we're not

967
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 3: we're not republicans. We're just all in this together, which

968
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 3: which looks so antiquated by that time, it's just blown

969
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 3: out the waters in eighteen twenties. But I'm interested in

970
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 3: the intellectual history that's there, his readings of you know,

971
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 3: a Thinian democracy in the Roman Republic, and you know,

972
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 3: he was the last chief executive to essentially run you know,

973
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 3: all by himself. There was there was no one opposed

974
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 3: to him. So there really was that moment of what

975
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 3: do you call it moderation or the center or consensus

976
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: that we could we could we could as a country

977
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 3: say yeah, you know, we're essentially behind this person. It

978
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 3: doesn't last.

979
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know Lincoln has that now, but he

980
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: never had it in practice. Right, what's that meaning that

981
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: what you just described that Monroe had this sort of Hey,

982
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: he's representative of all of us.

983
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: Well, that's right.

984
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: In hindsight, we've decided Lincoln is is an avatar for

985
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: the for who we want America to have been in

986
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, and it wasn't what America was, but

987
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: he's the avatar of what we could be.

988
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: Right, he's America.

989
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: I think FDR is pretty close to achieving that status. Eisenhower,

990
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: I think has that status. But there's not many presidents

991
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: that have that status.

992
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 3: No, there isn't. Oftentimes it's it's chief executives who are

993
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 3: associated in some way, shape or form with wars. With sure,

994
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 3: with America's more popular wars, more necessary wars, and so

995
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 3: that loves off.

996
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: You made a great case for James Monroe America at

997
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: two fifty. How should the average citizens celebrate.

998
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 3: Part of their country cognizance of are our successes cognizance

999
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 3: of our failures, and to love and respect our country

1000
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 3: enough to to look at it wholly and clearly as

1001
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 3: as best we can, and to to do what we

1002
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 3: can to be good, productive, honest, deliberate, considerate citizens.

1003
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: Well, David, I enjoyed it. Uh, you know, look, I'm

1004
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: an easy mark. I enjoyed Teddy Roosevelt books.

1005
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 2: But look, you.

1006
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: The best history books to read are the ones that

1007
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: make you feel like they echo in the moment we're

1008
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: currently living in. And I would say that you've you've

1009
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: You've done a good job of trying to capture you know,

1010
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:57,959
Speaker 1: I think that's a plus side of a history book,

1011
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: right is when it can also it's writing about the past,

1012
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: but it's writing about the present.

1013
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 3: Well, thanks, You know, the historian is objective as objective

1014
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 3: can be. Use this.

1015
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: You're you're gonna get You're going to get influenced by

1016
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: the times you're living in.

1017
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: It's just inevitable, right exactly.

1018
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 3: The history is living is living through the times.

1019
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: Well, we need a lot more historians as journalists these days.

1020
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: I feel like context and nuances falls off too much.

1021
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: So I'm glad to surface this, and.

1022
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 2: Well done. It's great to get to know you Dad.

1023
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 3: Thanks, check,