Speaker 1: Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.
Speaker 2: And today we're talking about buying what you love without
Speaker 2: going broke with Jen and Jill from Frugal Friends.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, Joel, I don't want to offend our guests today,
Speaker 3: but Jen and Jill are basically like.
Speaker 1: The girl version of us. They just got longer hair.
Speaker 1: Just kidding.
Speaker 3: They really are friends, though they talk about money on
Speaker 3: their podcast, Frugal Friends, which they started right around the
Speaker 3: same time that we started Hours I think back in
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: One big difference.
Speaker 3: Though they've written books, and specifically they have a new
Speaker 3: book hitting the shelves in January.
Speaker 1: Kind of attention span, do we, Matt.
Speaker 3: No, No, The name of the book buy what you
Speaker 3: Love without going broke. And that is exactly what we're
Speaker 3: talking about today, spending money. We're gonna talk about all
Speaker 3: the ways that we're doing it wrong, how to go
Speaker 3: about spending money in a in like a healthy values
Speaker 3: driven manner, ways to support those new habits, all that
Speaker 3: and more. Today we've got a lot to discuss. There
Speaker 3: are four of us here, after all, all of us podcasters,
Speaker 3: so I think we're gonna have a lot to get through,
Speaker 3: so we'll cut to the chase. Jen and Jill, thank
Speaker 3: you so much for joining us today on how to Money.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having us such a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a full house.
Speaker 2: We love it most definitely. We're excited for you, excited
Speaker 2: for this new book. And but first question out of
Speaker 2: the gate that we got to ask everybody who comes
Speaker 2: on is what's your craft your equivalent? What do you
Speaker 2: like to supli? Joh, we're going to talk about spending
Speaker 2: here today, what do you like to splour?
Speaker 1: John?
Speaker 2: While you're still being smart with your money and thinking
Speaker 2: about your future.
Speaker 5: So for me, I think it's a little weird, but
Speaker 5: for me it's not weird. I buy pre cut vegetables,
Speaker 5: which in the frugal living space is like a gas Like,
Speaker 5: why would you spend extra to have your vegetables pre cut?
Speaker 5: Sounds like heresy, right, But if it's that barrier to
Speaker 5: entry between me cooking and me getting takeout, that's usually
Speaker 5: what it is is the effort that it takes to
Speaker 5: chop a vegetable. I'm lazy. I embrace it. So pre
Speaker 5: chopped vegetable deficient, I love it. I love either way
Speaker 5: to say it that's my thing.
Speaker 3: I love.
Speaker 1: Okay, So my wife she she chops real veggies. Not
Speaker 1: to brag that thing said. She does get the pre peeled.
Speaker 3: Garlic from Aldie in the in the ziplock resealable bag
Speaker 3: because that is such a time consuming task and she
Speaker 3: gets all in your fingernails and she hates it. So
Speaker 3: she's like, I'm buying that pre peeled garlic. Living high
Speaker 3: on the hog.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 5: I take it a step further and I get minced garlic.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I'm just I'm there.
Speaker 4: Jen, has your wife beat the efficient Jill?
Speaker 1: How about you?
Speaker 4: For me, it's paying for car washes still the like
Speaker 4: drive through kind. But then we've got this place near
Speaker 4: us called Woodies wash Shack. I'm not paid by them,
Speaker 4: I should be. And afterwards you can wipe down your
Speaker 4: car and vacuum it out included in the price of
Speaker 4: the wash itself and it is a party to me.
Speaker 4: Could I clean and vacuum my car at home? Absolutely?
Speaker 4: Do I have the supplies to do it? Sure do?
Speaker 4: Would I rather go to Woody's Washack because they're.
Speaker 5: Playing the cool like beach music and they very strong vacuum.
Speaker 4: Sometimes employees even power it's essential. Their employees will help
Speaker 4: you to kind of detail your car, and then you
Speaker 4: try and tip them and they can accept tip.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's like wood.
Speaker 5: Yeah, washhack is a vibe.
Speaker 2: I think the other thing that is included in that
Speaker 2: is entertainment for your children if you uh, because it
Speaker 2: got the the led all the colors. Yes, my kids
Speaker 2: are like, dad, please can we go to the car.
Speaker 2: But then you also get some work out of them.
Speaker 2: They help you clean the car on the back from
Speaker 2: back end, So it's it's worth it if you can
Speaker 2: find a cheap enough place because it hits a bunch
Speaker 2: of those facets.
Speaker 4: I don't have kids, but it's entertaining for me.
Speaker 1: You can borrow mine, Jill saying years will be old enough.
Speaker 3: That's when you know you've like turned the corner when
Speaker 3: you start putting them to work and all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: it's like, wait a minute. Life looks a lot different
Speaker 3: now than when I used to just do everything for you.
Speaker 1: You're starting to pull your own ways.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 5: I do make my twenty month old bring his own
Speaker 5: diaper to the trash can, and that's nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, see as progress.
Speaker 4: Yeah the drift, Yeah, life back.
Speaker 1: I'm curious.
Speaker 3: Okay, so our listeners know that where Joel and I
Speaker 3: stand when it comes to organization or how nerdy each
Speaker 3: one of us is when we approach our finances. What
Speaker 3: do you what's y'all take on budgeting specifically, because Joel's
Speaker 3: like more of a shoot from the hip kind of westerner,
Speaker 3: like a Western movie kind of guy. I'm like, I'm
Speaker 3: more like a sniper, kind of rifle kind of guy.
Speaker 3: I'm very exact zerous on budgeting.
Speaker 1: What about y'all? Do y'all have a you've got to
Speaker 1: similar breakdown?
Speaker 5: You've got two of us two Yeah, So I'm very
Speaker 5: much like Joel, which is so funny because we both
Speaker 5: Joel and I have the specific personal finance backgrounds like
Speaker 5: pre podcasting. Yeah, but I am very much like go
Speaker 5: with the flow. And I think the reason I love
Speaker 5: values based spending so much is because it allows me
Speaker 5: to feel confident in my outgo and income without having
Speaker 5: a really strict plan. So that's definitely more my vibe.
Speaker 4: And I like being in the nitty gritty. It's just
Speaker 4: fun for me. I have a spreadsheet that I created.
Speaker 4: I like looking at all of my transactions. However, both
Speaker 4: of our approaches to budgets are that it's like step
Speaker 4: four or five in the grand scheme of personal finance.
Speaker 4: There's so much more that needs to come before putting
Speaker 4: numbers to paper. The way that we manage money, the
Speaker 4: decisions that we make about spending are far more nuanced
Speaker 4: than just math. Okay, so it's really not the first
Speaker 4: step for us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like, what, in your opinion what comes first?
Speaker 3: Because I think for a lot of folks, budgeting, like,
Speaker 3: let's say you're trying to get fit, it's like, okay, exercise.
Speaker 3: I feel like budgeting is sort of like the exercise
Speaker 3: equivalent when it comes to physical fitness. But what do
Speaker 3: you think should should come first?
Speaker 5: Well, I think budgeting is actually the like physique plan. Right,
Speaker 5: If you have a plan to get a six pack,
Speaker 5: you then need to develop the skills of exercising in
Speaker 5: order to execute that plan. Right, So we talk about
Speaker 5: essentially a plan to develop developing those skills so that
Speaker 5: you can actually stick with your budget. That's what so
Speaker 5: many people are missing.
Speaker 4: So both kind of tangible and intangible. Intangibly, it is
Speaker 4: a lot to do with understanding ourselves and kind of
Speaker 4: what makes us tick, What are our values? What do
Speaker 4: we enjoy spending money on, what could we care less
Speaker 4: to spend money on? And tangibly, we talk about a
Speaker 4: couple of things that you can do before you're even budgeting,
Speaker 4: including a ninety day transaction inventory. So even knowing first
Speaker 4: where is your money going typically what are you finding
Speaker 4: yourself spending on, can help to inform the plan that
Speaker 4: we make going forward. So we say doing a ninety
Speaker 4: day transaction inventory because it kind of captures the typical
Speaker 4: transactions purchases that we make, and can maybe even get
Speaker 4: some of those outliers, the things that don't happen every
Speaker 4: month but they happen occasionally kind of a thing, and
Speaker 4: compile that all into a spreadsheet to be able to
Speaker 4: see where am I spending money on most often, what's
Speaker 4: taking up the majority of my expenses and might even
Speaker 4: be informative on some of the habits or impulse purchases
Speaker 4: that we tend to make. What time of day am
Speaker 4: I typically spending in pulsively? At what location am I
Speaker 4: typically spending impulsively? How do I feel about where my
Speaker 4: money is going? So even creating a whole other column
Speaker 4: of essentially being able to journal about our transactions not
Speaker 4: lengthy paragraphs, but being able to identify, Oh, do I
Speaker 4: remember where what came just before I made this purchase?
Speaker 4: Do I remember was I with anybody? How was I feeling?
Speaker 4: How did I feel after I made the purchase? These
Speaker 4: things can kind of help us to understand how do
Speaker 4: I feel about the way that I'm spending money? Do
Speaker 4: I even remember it? Did it fulfill my needs? Did
Speaker 4: it satisfy whatever it was that I was hoping that
Speaker 4: it satisfied? Did it solve for the problem that I
Speaker 4: thought it was going to solve for? Can then help
Speaker 4: us to understand is this where I still want to
Speaker 4: be putting my money or are there different ways that
Speaker 4: I can be allocating the way that I spend, which
Speaker 4: can then help to inform the budget.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now I like that.
Speaker 2: And Joe, one of the things you said kind of
Speaker 2: at the beginning there was you talked about knowing ourselves
Speaker 2: and how that's kind of important and important first step.
Speaker 2: And you guys argue in the book that it's you know,
Speaker 2: the way you're spending money. It's not necessarily a personality trade.
Speaker 2: I think we tend to think of it like I
Speaker 2: am this or my spouse is this, and it is
Speaker 2: this ingrained thing, Like are we spenders or savers because
Speaker 2: of nature or nurture?
Speaker 1: Like? Yeah, is this a habit that we've accrued over.
Speaker 5: Time that I think we a lot of people in
Speaker 5: marketing want us to define ourselves as spender or saver
Speaker 5: because it's a lot easier to define yourself as a
Speaker 5: spender because everybody spends money. So if I have internalized
Speaker 5: that I am a spender, it is a lot easier
Speaker 5: for a marketer to get me to spend money, especially impulsively.
Speaker 5: So I think that kind of perpetuates it. But we
Speaker 5: also we tend to live for better or for worse
Speaker 5: in extremes because it's a lot easier to look at
Speaker 5: things in black and white one end of the spec
Speaker 5: to remove the other, and that we don't have to
Speaker 5: process a lot of nuance or a lot of like
Speaker 5: follow up questions when we look at things in black
Speaker 5: and white. And so the spender saver idea is that
Speaker 5: black and white idea. The problem is is that everyone
Speaker 5: is a spender and everyone should be and can be
Speaker 5: a saver. It just depends on where you are at financially,
Speaker 5: what season you're in, at what capacity you do each
Speaker 5: of those.
Speaker 3: Like what you're pointing to. There are like essentially labels, right,
Speaker 3: and the ability to sort of latch onto to certain labels,
Speaker 3: and in our sort of modern consumers culture, I think
Speaker 3: oftentimes we can tend to let our purchases reflect our
Speaker 3: chosen identity or the labels that we have adopted. Do
Speaker 3: you think that that's the part of the problem when
Speaker 3: it comes to how it is that we're maybe unintentionally
Speaker 3: or maybe even intentionally spending our money.
Speaker 2: It's almost like I'm out doorsy, I gotta get a
Speaker 2: new super room exactly.
Speaker 4: Yep. Yeah, I think that these labels that we take
Speaker 4: on could even go just beyond how we spend, but
Speaker 4: how we manage money as a whole, how we think
Speaker 4: about money, how we approach it, and then how we
Speaker 4: interact with it and spend it. We talk a little
Speaker 4: bit in the book about kind of these cognitive distortions
Speaker 4: to say it in a clinical way or just unhelpful
Speaker 4: thinking styles that can become a part of our daily
Speaker 4: living that absolutely impacts finances, but aren't just a financial thing.
Speaker 4: But labeling all or nothing thinking over generalizing. We can
Speaker 4: do these things in all aspects of our lives, but
Speaker 4: especially too when it comes to our finances, thinking I
Speaker 4: am a spender or a saver, or you know, everything
Speaker 4: is all wrong and I'm broke and I'll never be
Speaker 4: able to make more money, or labeling our situation, however
Speaker 4: it is that we might label it. I think really
Speaker 4: being able to look at what have I believed to
Speaker 4: be true about my situation? What of that thinking style
Speaker 4: is helpful, what's not actually serving me? And how can
Speaker 4: I bring in some reality to the situation. I know
Speaker 4: for me, I can catastrophize a ton when it comes
Speaker 4: to my finances. This happened when we paid taxes last year,
Speaker 4: and it was the first time that the business had
Speaker 4: shown a profit, and we were an escorp at the time,
Speaker 4: and I had only had W two's that year, which
Speaker 4: was also very unusual for me. I'm used to being
Speaker 4: a ten ninety nine and needing to set my own
Speaker 4: money aside. But I didn't that year, thinking oh, it's
Speaker 4: all getting withdrawn from my paychecks. We're good to go,
Speaker 4: until I got hit with a tax bill and I
Speaker 4: was so overwhelmed by this and catastrophized. I'm like, this
Speaker 4: is an insane amount of money. Thank goodness, we did
Speaker 4: have money set aside, like it didn't it didn't cost
Speaker 4: us to go broke. But I then was thinking, if
Speaker 4: I have another crisis event, this is going to be
Speaker 4: really awful for us. So I even told so my
Speaker 4: husband and I we have scooters as like our second vehicle,
Speaker 4: and I put a rule on my husband and I
Speaker 4: that we couldn't ride our scooters until we like put
Speaker 4: more money back into savings because I was afraid if
Speaker 4: we got into an accident, then we'd have to pay
Speaker 4: our medical deductible and that could cause us to go
Speaker 4: an absolute financial ruin. So I just really went to
Speaker 4: such an extreme with.
Speaker 1: It, just in case we haven't a little a graduating.
Speaker 1: I know we developed it.
Speaker 4: This was it was legit, and I almost had a
Speaker 4: breakdown in our accountant's office where I'm just like, what,
Speaker 4: how did I not see this coming? I'm the worst? Ever?
Speaker 4: How do I have a personal finance podcast? I can't
Speaker 4: let anyone find out about this here I am talking
Speaker 4: openly about it.
Speaker 1: Now if there's tens of millions of people, nonetheless, you.
Speaker 4: Know now everybody knows. But it took me pausing to
Speaker 4: realize and kind of talk myself through this situation of Okay,
Speaker 4: what made me think that I wasn't going to owe
Speaker 4: any taxes this year? And come to find out, it's
Speaker 4: a problem a lot of people face where they don't
Speaker 4: withhold enough even as W two employees. It was the
Speaker 4: first time ever that I had been fully a W
Speaker 4: two employee. So it's just I just didn't know. I'm
Speaker 4: not stupid, but I encountered a situation that I had
Speaker 4: a lack of knowledge about. But I now know and
Speaker 4: I can move forward. I did have the money, Awesome,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to have to go into debt for this.
Speaker 4: I can make changes. I can actually help other people
Speaker 4: to be able to understand and protect themselves against some
Speaker 4: crisis event and their tax accountant office and stay out
Speaker 4: of tax prison. But I think for me knowing this
Speaker 4: about myself that okay, I can tell and to overgeneralize,
Speaker 4: and what are the steps that I need to take
Speaker 4: in order to help myself calm down, bring in some
Speaker 4: of the reality, and start to put action to it
Speaker 4: rather than just staying in my head and taking on
Speaker 4: all of these cognitive distortions, these unhelpful thinking styles that
Speaker 4: are actually not going to serve me well when it
Speaker 4: comes to managing my money.
Speaker 5: And then ignoring it and not paying your taxes.
Speaker 4: And just like, yeah, get me, uncle Sam.
Speaker 2: I moved to some island where they can't the long
Speaker 2: arm of the law can't get you right, just go
Speaker 2: out on the lamb jen. I guess when we're talking
Speaker 2: about spending, a lot of people think about spending as
Speaker 2: something that they have to do right to put a
Speaker 2: roof over their head, pay the car note. Although Matt
Speaker 2: and I say, don't ever have a car note or
Speaker 2: or something they get to do right now. This is
Speaker 2: the spending that's like kind of fun, buy an ice
Speaker 2: cream with my family or whatever. But you guys talk
Speaker 2: about spending as a skill, So I don't know. I'm
Speaker 2: curious to hear, like why you think it's a skill,
Speaker 2: and then how we can become like more skilled at spending.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it really is a mindset shift, because we're not
Speaker 5: taught how to spend money. We are simply taught. We're
Speaker 5: barely taught how to earn it. We're taught that you
Speaker 5: can get a job or you can start a business,
Speaker 5: and that's pretty much it. And then we're taught you
Speaker 5: have to spend as little as possible in order to
Speaker 5: be responsible. With money and if you can make enough,
Speaker 5: then invest it. But we're not really going to teach
Speaker 5: you that either. So that's kind of the extent of
Speaker 5: our financial education growing up and even as adults. Nobody
Speaker 5: online really talks about how to spend money. A lot
Speaker 5: of the talk in the frugality space is about how
Speaker 5: to get as much as possible for as little as possible,
Speaker 5: how to get good deals, use coupons, Bogo, or just
Speaker 5: deprive yourself so you can live with nothing. And that's
Speaker 5: great for some people, I guess, but for me, I
Speaker 5: love spending money.
Speaker 1: I just do.
Speaker 5: I love getting trees, I love treating myself. I love
Speaker 5: treating my kids. I think they deserve it. I deserve it,
Speaker 5: but I feel guilty when I treat myself, So what's
Speaker 5: up with that? Like, I definitely deserve it. So there
Speaker 5: there is this radical middle between spending all your money
Speaker 5: because you have it and being really quote unquote good
Speaker 5: at spending and then saving all your money, which is
Speaker 5: the other extreme, and usually that's done out of fear
Speaker 5: of not having money because if I spend it, I'll
Speaker 5: need it as soon as I spend it. So where
Speaker 5: is this radical middle where we can yes, spend money
Speaker 5: but also save it and not go broke. And that
Speaker 5: is where we found that spending is a skill. So
Speaker 5: if you're going to learn how to spend money and
Speaker 5: build the skills and the practices you need to stick
Speaker 5: with a budget, then you've got to look at a
Speaker 5: lot of sub skills. So, like any skill or activity,
Speaker 5: to master it, there are a lot of sub skills.
Speaker 5: So like to be good at communication, you also have
Speaker 5: to be good at not just talking, but listening, and
Speaker 5: it's the same with spending. So we talk a lot
Speaker 5: in the book about these different sub skills to stick
Speaker 5: with being good at spending totally.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think one of those is curiosity. You talk
Speaker 3: about that in chapter two. How can that be helpful
Speaker 3: when it comes to folks learning how to spend their
Speaker 3: money in a more value driven way.
Speaker 4: Curiosity is one of those pieces that we say should
Speaker 4: also come before making a budget, and it can be
Speaker 4: part of that ninety day transaction inventory process where we
Speaker 4: understand ourselves more as we take a cur a curious
Speaker 4: kind of not knowing approach to ourselves, just wondering about
Speaker 4: what we enjoy, what makes us tick, what we don't like,
Speaker 4: what we can say easy nos to and better yes
Speaker 4: is too. And so when we can approach ourselves with curiosity,
Speaker 4: it includes asking questions but avoiding why questions. We've found
Speaker 4: that the why question can really put us on the
Speaker 4: defense or that automatic kind of fight mode. It's the
Speaker 4: difference between why do you want to spend so much
Speaker 4: with the car wash? To what is it about woo
Speaker 4: He's washhack that is so enjoyab so much better washing.
Speaker 1: Wash.
Speaker 4: But yeah, the ones, the one is I need to
Speaker 4: justify myself and the other is let me dig deeper,
Speaker 4: let me think more about what it is that I
Speaker 4: enjoy so much about this activity, this thing, these items,
Speaker 4: and can help us learn how can we even go
Speaker 4: further deeper into those things and possibly are there ways
Speaker 4: that we can meet that value without spending money if necessary.
Speaker 5: Yeah, a lot of that can result in some false
Speaker 5: rationalization where we'll say, okay, well my car needs to
Speaker 5: be clean, so I need to go to the car wash,
Speaker 5: and that's how we justify things, and then we don't
Speaker 5: give space to get creative with how we spend and
Speaker 5: save money. And so yeah, maybe going to the car wash.
Speaker 5: You love it, it's a vibe and you can afford it.
Speaker 5: Then we say it's okay to want to go to
Speaker 5: the car wash. You don't need to justify and rationalize
Speaker 5: your purchases to be needs. They don't all need to
Speaker 5: be needs. It can be very empowering to want something
Speaker 5: and then be able to afford it. And then when
Speaker 5: we're looking at our expenses more as wants than trying
Speaker 5: to falsely justify them as needs, it opens up a
Speaker 5: lot more space to get creative with how we meet needs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can see that curiosity.
Speaker 2: Maybe if I'm thinking, all right, should I spend money
Speaker 2: on a video game system or on some hiking shoes,
Speaker 2: I could see say, well, how do I like to
Speaker 2: spend my time saying, oh wait, I like to get
Speaker 2: it on the trails more than I like to stay indoors,
Speaker 2: And so that's that's going to help me make the
Speaker 2: decision between those two things. But what if somebody's saying,
Speaker 2: my curiosity reveals and I like fancy cars, but I
Speaker 2: also don't really have the budget.
Speaker 1: To buy the brand new Ribbean?
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, how do you help people decipher thinking through
Speaker 2: value spending when maybe they can't afford things they're into.
Speaker 5: So it's great, like I said, to want things. It's
Speaker 5: really great to want things, but what we value really
Speaker 5: comes down to our needs. So often when we talk
Speaker 5: about values based spending, the first thing that comes to
Speaker 5: somebody's mind is but like, yeah, I like lattes, and like,
Speaker 5: that's that's what I value. And in reality, values are
Speaker 5: much deeper than that. They are technically human needs, and
Speaker 5: so it's very it's very broad, but we have found
Speaker 5: that we can distill what at least most Americans value
Speaker 5: most highlight into four things. They all start with F
Speaker 5: and then we'll talk about like how we found those.
Speaker 5: It's family, friends, faith, and fulfilling work. So some relationships
Speaker 5: with your family, romantic relationships, kids, friendships, just feeling of
Speaker 5: connection belonging on deep levels. And then also just on
Speaker 5: like recreational or hobby levels, some kind of faith or spirituality.
Speaker 5: And then fulfilling work, so not necessarily like your passion project,
Speaker 5: but work where you're feeling like you're contributing, that you're
Speaker 5: using your creativity, you're being able to live in your
Speaker 5: full potential. Just work that you enjoy and then also
Speaker 5: pays you. So those are kind of the four baselines.
Speaker 5: Pretty much everything we spend money on is really truly
Speaker 5: to get one of those things, and if it's not
Speaker 5: one of those, it can come down to something on
Speaker 5: the hierarchy of needs. I don't know if you've heard
Speaker 5: of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but it's like five levels.
Speaker 5: The first two are basic needs, so we've got food, shelter, water,
Speaker 5: and then we've got safety and consistency. Above that, we've
Speaker 5: got psychological so that's where we get into the family, friends,
Speaker 5: and then we have self esteem above that, which a
Speaker 5: lot of that can be found in your work, so
Speaker 5: it's respect, self confidence, stuff like that. And then at
Speaker 5: the very top you've got self actualization, passion, creativity, innovation,
Speaker 5: like feeling like you're living in your full potential. We
Speaker 5: found a lot of that in fulfilling work and in
Speaker 5: spiritual practices. So that's how we got to these four
Speaker 5: f's is looking at this hierarchy of human needs. And
Speaker 5: so if one of your values isn't meeting one of
Speaker 5: those four, it's probably still going to fall somewhere on
Speaker 5: that hierarchy of needs. When I say I value a
Speaker 5: nice car like a rivion, like they're beautiful cars, they're great,
Speaker 5: I would love one, But what I I truly like
Speaker 5: I want that that's not it's not in need, and
Speaker 5: it's empowering for me to say, like, yes, I want it,
Speaker 5: and if I can afford it, I'll buy it. But
Speaker 5: actually what I want more is relationships with the people
Speaker 5: I love, flexibility in work, and you know, a community
Speaker 5: of people around me. So those are really the things
Speaker 5: I want first. And then if I'm fulfilling all those things,
Speaker 5: then I can double check. I can double back and
Speaker 5: see if I still want the Rivion and see if
Speaker 5: it's still an important thing to budget for.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see if there's there's slack in the budget.
Speaker 3: Two things I will say, when you say Rivian, it
Speaker 3: sounds twice as expensive. I got.
Speaker 5: I got dinged so many times when we were recording
Speaker 5: our audio book for saying normal things in life wrong, Like.
Speaker 1: Jen, just say it normally, like it's really nice.
Speaker 5: Low's hierarchy of need, and I still say Maslow.
Speaker 1: Just as Tomato.
Speaker 2: So we've got more to get to with Jen and Jill,
Speaker 2: including like what do we do in a society that
Speaker 2: is constantly trying to, especially this time of year, part
Speaker 2: us from our money.
Speaker 1: Uh, We'll get to some questions about that with them
Speaker 1: right after this.
Speaker 3: All right, we are back from the break talking about
Speaker 3: how you can basically buy whatever you want without going
Speaker 3: broke with Jen and Jill including a Rivian friends. I'm curious,
Speaker 3: like I've had a question I guess about self control.
Speaker 3: I'm curious if you think it's harder than ever today
Speaker 3: to just rein in our spending because it seems like
Speaker 3: at every turn there's a company out there that are
Speaker 3: trying to part us from our dollars. Do you think
Speaker 3: that this is a new challenge or has it always
Speaker 3: been the case?
Speaker 5: It has all always been a challenge, but never more
Speaker 5: challenging than it is now in the nineteen twenties, and
Speaker 5: when like pr and marketing really, you know, after the
Speaker 5: Industrial Revolution, when marketing really came into its own, it
Speaker 5: was you had to be at the right place at
Speaker 5: the right time, listening to the radio or reading the
Speaker 5: newspaper to get an AD. And now you wake up
Speaker 5: and you open a device and they are right there,
Speaker 5: not just random, but tailored to you and so and
Speaker 5: there are so many options for types of It's never
Speaker 5: been easier to start a business or to offer a
Speaker 5: product or service. So there's so many different types now too,
Speaker 5: so it can be very confusing to decide do oh
Speaker 5: do I have this problem? Do I need this product
Speaker 5: or service to solve the problem? And you just have
Speaker 5: to ask yourself so many more questions than you used to. So, yes,
Speaker 5: it is harder than ever to keep your money to yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like a marketing in the nineteen sixties
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I want a new TV. But now
Speaker 2: like the way that they can drill down via algorithms
Speaker 2: and marketing because of all the data that they have
Speaker 2: about you can be so specific and you're like, how
Speaker 2: did you know? Like the algorithms know us better than
Speaker 2: our friends and family, it seems at times. And then
Speaker 2: that can I think trigger impulsive spending, and that is
Speaker 2: a massive enemy of being able to spend responsibly. So like,
Speaker 2: how do we counteract this marketing machine and the influx
Speaker 2: of kind of like proposals to get us to part
Speaker 2: with our money on a regular basis. Is it part
Speaker 2: of just kind of like where we hang out and
Speaker 2: not hanging out there anymore?
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I think it's important to say
Speaker 4: that we are not bad or there's something wrong with
Speaker 4: us because we impulse spend. I think that that will
Speaker 4: forever and always be something that we face. We see
Speaker 4: something it seems to solve a problem that we have,
Speaker 4: and we buy it. That's going to happen. And so
Speaker 4: in some ways, part of the solution can be to
Speaker 4: factor that into our spending plan that I want to
Speaker 4: create some flexibility month to month, week to week on
Speaker 4: allowing myself to be able to see something and buy
Speaker 4: it if I want to and not feel like I
Speaker 4: have to constantly deprive myself. But from there, I think
Speaker 4: it can be helpful to identify what type of impulse
Speaker 4: spender are we because we don't We're not all the
Speaker 4: same in the ways in which we make impulsive spending decisions.
Speaker 4: It could be some of the top five that we
Speaker 4: identify in the book is spending out of habit, spending
Speaker 4: as an activity, spending as the result of social influence.
Speaker 4: The thrill of the hunt can cause us to impulse
Speaker 4: spend and stress or emotional spending, And so that ninety
Speaker 4: day transaction inventory can be helpful and identify what type
Speaker 4: of impulse spender am I? Is it? Am I typically
Speaker 4: buying things that I wasn't planning on when I was
Speaker 4: feeling sad or celebratory, or it's the same day at
Speaker 4: the same time, at the same location, and so it's
Speaker 4: a habit spending or is it every weekend when I'm
Speaker 4: out with friends? So maybe it's social influencer shopping as
Speaker 4: an activity. And so when we can first identify what
Speaker 4: is it that draws me to spend in this way,
Speaker 4: then can help to inform how will I then intersect
Speaker 4: this pattern that's happening. And each one is going to
Speaker 4: have a different type of solution to it. So, for instance,
Speaker 4: if let's say for me, it's when I'm scrolling on
Speaker 4: my phone late at night and all these instagrammers are
Speaker 4: getting me and my walls are down, and I've made
Speaker 4: too many decisions today and I'm just going to one
Speaker 4: click buy that thing because it looks cool. If that's
Speaker 4: kind of where I tend to be finding myself spending
Speaker 4: the most money, then there's a couple of things that
Speaker 4: I could do from there. It could mean that I
Speaker 4: need to curate who I'm following better that Instagram. Social
Speaker 4: media the Internet can be a wonderful place and have
Speaker 4: tremendous resources, but sometimes they don't serve us well. But
Speaker 4: could I be taking inventory of who I'm following? Could
Speaker 4: I be following accounts that are talking about more conscious
Speaker 4: consumption or lower waiste or helping me towards some of
Speaker 4: the goals that I have, like meal planning and prepping more,
Speaker 4: and I can follow these accounts that have interesting recipes,
Speaker 4: easy meal prep recipes. Or it could be that I
Speaker 4: need to find another activity that's going to provide me
Speaker 4: with the dopamine hit that shopping does give us. That
Speaker 4: finding something and being about to purchase it really does
Speaker 4: release for us. And so for some that could be
Speaker 4: instead of scrolling, I'm going to watch funny videos, or
Speaker 4: if you're an animal person, you're going to watch some
Speaker 4: cute cats and dogs doing whatever it is that they
Speaker 4: do online.
Speaker 1: Go play some pickleball.
Speaker 4: Well, if it's late at night, I don't know if
Speaker 4: I'm going to go out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean maybe you can, but you shouldn't.
Speaker 4: But something to replace that action that is of similar
Speaker 4: value or similar time commitment or similar like doesn't require
Speaker 4: you to get out of bed and put your sneakers on.
Speaker 4: Finding something else that you can do instead of rather
Speaker 4: than just completely eliminating it, finding an alternative solution with
Speaker 4: your creativity.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we say similar sizes, like there are small size
Speaker 5: you know, like low barrier to entry things and you
Speaker 5: want to replace those with lower barrier to entry things.
Speaker 4: And then there's.
Speaker 5: Medium size, and we've got a list in the book
Speaker 5: to kind of help you figure out, you know, if
Speaker 5: this is the size of my trigger, then this is
Speaker 5: the size of my solution sort of thing.
Speaker 3: Nice, it's a similar, Yeah, it's getting a similar fix
Speaker 3: for that receptor or whatever it is that.
Speaker 1: You're trying to trying to fill there.
Speaker 3: But you mentioned social media, and I wonder like if
Speaker 3: even more than the algorithms and sort of the different
Speaker 3: products were fed because like I went in, you've got
Speaker 3: like TikTok shop and literally you've got folks who are
Speaker 3: hawking goods and they want you to buy that thing.
Speaker 3: But I'm curious of your thoughts on social media because
Speaker 3: I almost feel that the exposure to the different.
Speaker 1: Types of lifestyles that are out there, that.
Speaker 3: That could even be more detrimental to our personal finances
Speaker 3: than the one off buying some tennis shoes, which literally
Speaker 3: happened to me because Vans was like, oh, you love
Speaker 3: these these shoes, and so I bought those shoes and
Speaker 3: I thought skaters. But that isn't necessarily going to wreck
Speaker 3: me as much as following somebody that has this beautiful home.
Speaker 3: Oh they live out in Lake Tahoe or there's like
Speaker 3: these you know, like the different mom influencers that live
Speaker 3: out like Utah and stuff like that, but like seeing
Speaker 3: their homes for instance, And I wonder if just that
Speaker 3: exposure to all that's out there, if that has almost
Speaker 3: warped our perspective as to what is normal and even
Speaker 3: that right there causes us to make out like I've
Speaker 3: altered decisions that inevitably leads to like our financial ruin.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's more of so I think it
Speaker 5: causes less of these big life changes like home purchases.
Speaker 5: But I but I think that the grandioseness is intentional
Speaker 5: because I'm looking at this beautiful home and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 5: I know I can't have that. I know I can't
Speaker 5: afford that, but I can afford this coffee maker that's
Speaker 5: in her video, Like I can afford a small piece
Speaker 5: of it.
Speaker 1: You can get one step.
Speaker 5: Or these videos that have like feature like forty different products,
Speaker 5: and everybody rage hates like on it. They don't want
Speaker 5: you to buy forty products from their video. They want
Speaker 5: you to buy one there, and you look at that
Speaker 5: you're like, Oh, I can't afford all of these things,
Speaker 5: but I can afford one thing, and that's the goal.
Speaker 5: If their video was reasonable, like in a normal looking
Speaker 5: house or with one or two products, you're less likely
Speaker 5: to feel inadequate enough to make the impulse purchase to
Speaker 5: try to increase or get closer to that aspiration.
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is why I think it's so important to
Speaker 4: then understand some of the deeper need that that purchase
Speaker 4: is tethered to. And that can be a question we
Speaker 4: ask ourselves, is what which of the four FS might
Speaker 4: I be trying to get closer to in making this purchase.
Speaker 4: We talked with a woman recently who said, you know what,
Speaker 4: I think my recent purchase from an Instagram influencer for
Speaker 4: these cute dresses actually had to do with my need
Speaker 4: for belonging and connection. And that's a really vulnerable thing
Speaker 4: to realize and to name. But how powerful to be
Speaker 4: able to say, Okay, the next time I encounter this,
Speaker 4: I'm more equipped to know this isn't actually about me
Speaker 4: needing another dress. I think I probably have plenty. This
Speaker 4: might be about me wanting deeper connection with people, how
Speaker 4: do I get that instead?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's trade offs when you buy the dress, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but of not being able to do other things with
Speaker 2: that money. But you're right, like I think we are
Speaker 2: often spending money in a moment of fatigue or in
Speaker 2: a desire to fill some sort of other for lack
Speaker 2: of a better phrase, whole in our heart. And you, guys,
Speaker 2: you also make the case in the book for getting
Speaker 2: the biggest financial decisions right right. You basically talk about, oh,
Speaker 2: if you're able to produce your housing costs or transportation costs,
Speaker 2: it can kind of act as a pressure release valve,
Speaker 2: which makes some of the smaller purchases less harrowing. Like
Speaker 2: you know, the book The Latte Factor was super popular,
Speaker 2: and then there was this whole thing about, man, if
Speaker 2: you buy coffee out, you're an idiot and you're ruin
Speaker 2: your personal finances. And I feel so much more of
Speaker 2: an ability to not stress about small decisions because I
Speaker 2: drive a ridiculously old car that costs me almost nothing.
Speaker 2: How big and important is that for people? And it's
Speaker 2: the fact that the expensive recur and car payment is
Speaker 2: preventing them from being able to feel any sort of
Speaker 2: bliss in those minor purchases.
Speaker 5: Yeah, pressure release valve is such a perfect term for it,
Speaker 5: because when you are focusing on these bigger things, then
Speaker 5: you don't have to stress about the smaller things so much.
Speaker 5: And I feel like so as a you know, as
Speaker 5: a woman who grew up in early two thousands diet culture.
Speaker 5: And I saw this video recently and I just got
Speaker 5: a tech. We talked about this in an episode recently.
Speaker 5: I got a text from a friend who listened to
Speaker 5: it and she was cracking up. But I saw this
Speaker 5: video of this woman talking about how to save money,
Speaker 5: and she references weight watchers who apparently were saying that
Speaker 5: the way you lose weight or the way you gain
Speaker 5: weight is through blt's bites, licks and tastes. And they're like,
Speaker 5: pay attention to all these small tastes, right, I know,
Speaker 5: it's so bizarre, but she's but they're like, you can't
Speaker 5: you basically can't eat anything good or you'll gain weight.
Speaker 5: And so this woman was saying, you can't spend on
Speaker 5: anything fun or you'll be broke. And I'm like, what
Speaker 5: in the actual heck, Like those small pennies and dollars
Speaker 5: are not what is causing the problem. The two the
Speaker 5: biggest problems are the income and your biggest expenses, which
Speaker 5: according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics for Americans is
Speaker 5: your housing, transportation, and food. So if we can get
Speaker 5: if we can really number four, actually investing is number
Speaker 5: that's a what do you do? It is one of
Speaker 5: those BLTs. Yeah, you'll let you decide which one. But
Speaker 5: if you if we can really hone in on the
Speaker 5: cost of our housing, the cost of our train insportation,
Speaker 5: and the cost of our food, then we don't have
Speaker 5: to worry as much about all the other things. And
Speaker 5: it definitely takes the pressure off of getting values based
Speaker 5: spending one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: Right, Let's talk about some of the different external factors
Speaker 3: that we all deal with. How does our environment impact
Speaker 3: our different buying decisions, like, for instance, can a messy home?
Speaker 3: Can that really lead to more purchasing mistakes as we
Speaker 3: are feeling overwhelmed at the end of the day and
Speaker 3: scrolling doom scrolling and get fed something I don't know,
Speaker 3: something that we think is gonna like Joel said, feel
Speaker 3: that that empty hole.
Speaker 5: Somebody read the.
Speaker 4: Book, Wow, this is nice for those alley. So absolutely
Speaker 4: we are living within a context. There's this idea that's
Speaker 4: talked about in social work. It's kind of a foundational
Speaker 4: concept of person in environment pie for short, because food,
Speaker 4: And it's this understanding that, yeah, we our individuals with
Speaker 4: our own stories and experiences, likes and dislikes that exist
Speaker 4: also in an environment within a context that also informs
Speaker 4: kind of how they are influencing and being influenced. So
Speaker 4: our environment certainly includes our immediate physical spaces, but also
Speaker 4: our larger community and where we are. So everything from
Speaker 4: who we choose to follow on social media, to our
Speaker 4: friends that we have and how we engage with them,
Speaker 4: the ways that we enjoy connection to the homes that
Speaker 4: we have, and the types of neighborhoods that we live
Speaker 4: into our immediate environment and maybe even how cluttered or
Speaker 4: how simplified it may or may not be, can absolutely
Speaker 4: bear weight on what we think is normal as well
Speaker 4: as how cluttered our decision making might be, how fatigued
Speaker 4: we might be depending on how much stimulation is happening
Speaker 4: around us. So there's obviously now so many different things
Speaker 4: that could be looked at in that, But if we
Speaker 4: were to just talk about our immediate physical spaces, absolutely
Speaker 4: having a simplified environment and that doesn't mean minimalist. That
Speaker 4: doesn't mean you only have a couple of things in
Speaker 4: all of your walls are white. It could just mean
Speaker 4: that you know what you have, what you have does
Speaker 4: serve you, and you know where it's located, rather than
Speaker 4: I have no idea and I don't know where my
Speaker 4: things are, so I'm buying duplicates instead. And now I
Speaker 4: feel stressed, and so I'm going to purchase things that
Speaker 4: I probably don't need because I feel overwhelmed, and this
Speaker 4: is the dopamine hit that I need. So we do
Speaker 4: certainly talk about how important it can be to simplify
Speaker 4: our environment and how that act can help us in
Speaker 4: identifying what is our clutter kryptonite, what are we maybe
Speaker 4: drawn to spending on a lot, Maybe reduce the amounts
Speaker 4: of duplicates that we purchase, the amount of just decor
Speaker 4: the things that we think that we need. Can help
Speaker 4: us really open our eyes to okay, but what do
Speaker 4: I have already and start to build some of that
Speaker 4: contentment and also the repulsion of decluttering that I never
Speaker 4: want to have to do that again. Oh, I'm not
Speaker 4: going to purchase things to refill this house again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean We've all been there where we bought
Speaker 2: something and we're like, already have that. I found it
Speaker 2: like two months later, right after putting the light bulbin
Speaker 2: or whatever it is that we ordered a second time.
Speaker 2: And Yeah, I think the more we are organized like it,
Speaker 2: clean space, clean brain. But I'm curious too, Jen, what
Speaker 2: do you think like about kind of our overall culture
Speaker 2: from a self reliance standpoint. Instead of asking your neighbor
Speaker 2: for a cup of sugar, now we can instacart it,
Speaker 2: yet it's gonna cost us a whole lot more. It
Speaker 2: feels like this is part of it and that and
Speaker 2: that maybe we've kind of become so bought into this
Speaker 2: self reliance thing to such an extreme that we're unwilling
Speaker 2: to ask our neighbor for something, even though it probably
Speaker 2: actually aids in our relationship, in our friendship over time,
Speaker 2: and it also helps us save money. Is there something
Speaker 2: I'm getting in that?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 5: Yeah, our country was founded on the desire for self reliance,
Speaker 5: so it is literally ingrained in the foundation of where
Speaker 5: we live. Is this desire to not be beholden to essentially.
Speaker 1: A monarchy thanks piritance, you know, so we have just.
Speaker 5: Like taken that and everything so much of technology has
Speaker 5: gone towards that because it is such an American value
Speaker 5: that it's very marketable, and I believe that it has
Speaker 5: been taken to an extreme that is really detrimental not
Speaker 5: just to our finances, but just to our mental health
Speaker 5: and how disconnected we can be from each other, and
Speaker 5: so we are seen like if we're relying on someone
Speaker 5: that we are not successful, or that we're mooching or
Speaker 5: just you know, any we don't want to be seen
Speaker 5: as a burden. Yet if somebody asked us for help,
Speaker 5: we'd be more than happy to help them, like whether
Speaker 5: they're in you know, dire need or just we're willing
Speaker 5: to ask, right, But we're not willing to ask. And
Speaker 5: that's just a cultural thing that has been like ingrained
Speaker 5: in us and fueled by capitalism. And so I think
Speaker 5: we really need to fight those feelings of like asking
Speaker 5: for not help, but like connectedness and sharing resources is
Speaker 5: not a sign of weakness, but it is a sign
Speaker 5: of wanting to be connected.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think we could all use a
Speaker 3: little more connection in our lives. And oftentimes, instead of
Speaker 3: reaching out to other people, we tend to consume our
Speaker 3: way out of any sort of little predictament.
Speaker 2: We might come so much easier too, right, just to
Speaker 2: click the button one click to buy, it shows up
Speaker 2: on my doorstep, even in hours instead of days, and
Speaker 2: so I don't even need to ask my neighbor next
Speaker 2: door for the butter.
Speaker 1: It's just gonna come to me.
Speaker 3: But ladies, we've got more that we want to get to. Actually,
Speaker 3: we're getting close to Christmas, and so we got some
Speaker 3: I guess, some practical questions to get to. We'll get
Speaker 3: to all that right after this.
Speaker 1: All right, we're back.
Speaker 2: We're still talking with Jen and Jill from the Frugal
Speaker 2: Friends podcast. We're talking about buying stuff and hopefully just
Speaker 2: some good advice about to help us be able to
Speaker 2: buy the things that we actually want without screwing up
Speaker 2: our finances in the process. And ladies, we are getting
Speaker 2: close to Christmas, and I don't know, I would be
Speaker 2: curious to know actually how they had the money audiences doing,
Speaker 2: as far as like what percentage of the gifts they've
Speaker 2: planned to buy have they actually bought already.
Speaker 1: They're wrapped in under the tree line.
Speaker 2: Now, I would hope so those planners, right, But like
Speaker 2: you know, almost everyone feels compelled to spend to express
Speaker 2: their love at one time or the other, and that's
Speaker 2: not always bad, like buying an engagement ring for my
Speaker 2: wife that was like one of the best purchases I've
Speaker 2: ever made. But how do you think about spending to
Speaker 2: show affection, especially during the holidays.
Speaker 4: I think you do not have to spend money to
Speaker 4: make the season magical or to tell people that you
Speaker 4: care about them. That doesn't mean you don't have to
Speaker 4: spend altogether, but I do. For Jen and I, we've
Speaker 4: both made lists of the things that we will spend
Speaker 4: money on this holiday season and the things that are
Speaker 4: easy knows for us, we are not going to spend
Speaker 4: on these things, and that has really helped to free
Speaker 4: up feeling really confident about spending on the things that
Speaker 4: are these intentional. We've already made a plan for it.
Speaker 4: This is actually going to be fulfilling versus the things
Speaker 4: that maybe everybody else is doing or it's kind of obligatory.
Speaker 4: But I've learned I don't need to spend on that
Speaker 4: to really enjoy this time or to tell people that
Speaker 4: I care about them. I think that a well written
Speaker 4: letter to somebody encouraging them, telling them what they mean
Speaker 4: to you can be far better than some lackluster, cheap
Speaker 4: five ten dollars whatever that you bought because you just
Speaker 4: thought you had to so. And I probably even no
Speaker 4: gift is better than a TACKI gift, but absolutely being
Speaker 4: able to identify in what ways could I really encourage
Speaker 4: this person or build them up. The things that I've
Speaker 4: kept from friends are the pictures that they sent to
Speaker 4: me or a letter of encouragement. I can't really tell
Speaker 4: you any other like small gift that I've been given
Speaker 4: that I've kept or even remember who gave to me.
Speaker 4: But absolutely I keep the meaningful cards and notes and
Speaker 4: again pictures sent that illicit memories together. So I think
Speaker 4: being thoughtful this season and considering how can I enjoy
Speaker 4: the things that make me feel festive without spending where
Speaker 4: it's not necessary.
Speaker 5: And I feel similarly to Jill, but I have a
Speaker 5: mother who wants to give gifts more than she wants
Speaker 5: to Like, listen when I say that I don't need one,
Speaker 5: and there's a mom Yeah right. There's a lot of
Speaker 5: people who gift giving is their love language and they
Speaker 5: just want to do it, and so for them, if
Speaker 5: that's you, then I think investing in local businesses or
Speaker 5: organizations is a fantastic way to live out that desire
Speaker 5: and that value for you. And even if you're like
Speaker 5: the person is going to appreciate that you invested in
Speaker 5: something local. So for me, I know, I'm gonna end
Speaker 5: up giving a few gifts like white elephant or just
Speaker 5: random peace ball. And so what I did was I
Speaker 5: went to a local succulent shop and I bought a
Speaker 5: couple of their three dollars succulents. And then I went
Speaker 5: to the thrift store and I got a couple you
Speaker 5: know bowls or you know, cute planters, and I will
Speaker 5: plant succulents in thrifted bowls. And so I have. I
Speaker 5: have invested in two different local like a business and
Speaker 5: a local organization, and I feel good about that. So
Speaker 5: even if the person may not like love that gift,
Speaker 5: I feel really good about where my money has gone
Speaker 5: in the community.
Speaker 1: Very cool.
Speaker 3: Have y'all either of y'all set like hard budget amounts
Speaker 3: for how much you're looking to spend this Christmas this
Speaker 3: holiday season?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I every month put aside money for the holidays
Speaker 4: because I do enjoy it so much. And I yes,
Speaker 4: I been right, you know, I'm.
Speaker 1: Just follows her heart.
Speaker 5: I do absolutely just follow my heart to the original
Speaker 5: budget budgeting question.
Speaker 1: But that's I mean, that's exactly.
Speaker 5: What I feel so seen, And I don't know if
Speaker 5: that's a good thing, but it is good.
Speaker 4: It helps me to even look back on years prior.
Speaker 4: Then thankfully we can do that with the internet, to
Speaker 4: identify what have I spent on years prior? How much
Speaker 4: should I maybe anticipate spending this year, What did I
Speaker 4: enjoy spending on? What did I not this year? My
Speaker 4: husband and I have decided, even though I put money
Speaker 4: aside for the holidays, that we are not giving gifts
Speaker 4: to each other. Last year we did it and we
Speaker 4: returned both of us every single thing that we got
Speaker 4: for each other. That now I'm just like, it's not
Speaker 4: we're not doing it. That's not going to happen. But
Speaker 4: what we do really love is hosting people in our
Speaker 4: home and eating good food and maybe going to a
Speaker 4: concert or an event of some sort. And so that's
Speaker 4: what our money that I have set aside is going
Speaker 4: to go to. We're just going to eat really well.
Speaker 2: All right, last question for you guys, how has value
Speaker 2: based spending changed your life and combined with that, what
Speaker 2: are your biggest spending struggles currently?
Speaker 5: So it has given me a lot of freedom to spend.
Speaker 5: I have gone back and forth when we were paying
Speaker 5: off debt, my husband and I. I felt guilty every
Speaker 5: purchase I made. Even if I'd made a budget and
Speaker 5: I had but put money in the budget for something
Speaker 5: I still spent. I felt guilty spending on it because
Speaker 5: it wasn't the quote unquote best use of the money.
Speaker 5: And then once we were done, I couldn't get myself
Speaker 5: to spend money because I was like, we now we
Speaker 5: got to reach financial independence and invest it all. But
Speaker 5: then I ended up just reverting to my old ways
Speaker 5: of like mindless spending for a little while, and I
Speaker 5: was like, I'll just make as much money as possible.
Speaker 5: And so it was really in that season where I
Speaker 5: had to just I like, what is enough? What is
Speaker 5: enough to earn? What is enough to spend? And once
Speaker 5: I started asking myself nuanced questions and started rewriting the
Speaker 5: rules that I had, you know, been reading through all
Speaker 5: these personal finance books and started innovating and making my
Speaker 5: own rules. And that was values based spending. Values based
Speaker 5: spending isn't a set of rules. It is a guideline essentially,
Speaker 5: a framework to help you make your own rules. And
Speaker 5: that created a lot of freedom for me to say
Speaker 5: yes to more things that I value, and also to
Speaker 5: say no to things that, yeah, I may like and
Speaker 5: I may value, but I know I value something else
Speaker 5: more and I don't feel deprived. I just I want
Speaker 5: to live the fullest life possible, and I've defined what that.
Speaker 4: Is for me. I'm going to steal all the word
Speaker 4: that Jen just used, but I would agree that it is.
Speaker 4: It is freedom and flexibility for me, not just for myself,
Speaker 4: but I think for those around me. Recognizing that spending
Speaker 4: and managing money is not a one size fits all.
Speaker 4: I think values based spending recognizes that and creates room
Speaker 4: for everybody to find their own kind of radical middle
Speaker 4: the things that they want to spend on and feel
Speaker 4: really confident in their money management, and that it's okay
Speaker 4: if it looks different for me than it does for
Speaker 4: Gen or anybody else. And I think has really increased
Speaker 4: my confidence in the money decisions that I make, my intentionality,
Speaker 4: the way that I consume, to not feel guilty about
Speaker 4: spending wildly on travel, but being okay with being a
Speaker 4: one vehicle, household, and hardly ever buying new clothes because
Speaker 4: I've really identified it's okay if you think it's not
Speaker 4: frugal for me to have the most expensive travel plans,
Speaker 4: but here's where I make it work for our situation.
Speaker 4: So I have really loved kind of leaning into that
Speaker 4: and and just the confidence that it brings. And I
Speaker 4: would say the area of spending that is still a
Speaker 4: sore subject for me. It's always going to be food.
Speaker 4: I've definitely given myself a lot more freedom in Okay,
Speaker 4: this is just the amount of money that I like
Speaker 4: to spend on food. I think other people would balk
Speaker 4: at the amount of money that I spend for two people,
Speaker 4: but it it is what works for us. But I'm
Speaker 4: I'm constantly in this ebb and flow of all right,
Speaker 4: we got to rein it in.
Speaker 2: I think it's a sore subject for like everyone too
Speaker 2: right now, Like partly it's the past four years especially, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so like partly everyone looks at that and they're like, man,
Speaker 2: they're beating themselves up, even though it's just market conditions
Speaker 2: to a certain example.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think my biggest struggle is never thinking that
Speaker 5: I earn enough, even if the income and expenses are aligned,
Speaker 5: but I've just always been a like income is never enough,
Speaker 5: sort of like mindset always growing up the we never
Speaker 5: make enough money, and so I still struggle with with
Speaker 5: that part, which is why I'm not like a earn
Speaker 5: money online influencer or anything.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 3: I think somebody wrote in a book that maybe creativity
Speaker 3: is the solution, Jen, but I don't know if you
Speaker 3: could find that and buy what you love without.
Speaker 5: Going I mean, my full time job is a podcaster.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I appreciate y'all sharing, and I love what
Speaker 3: y'all are saying here and Jill specifically you talking about
Speaker 3: y'all being a one car family, have an old old
Speaker 3: ready clothes.
Speaker 4: Addio.
Speaker 1: But I think I may have overstepped. I apologize just
Speaker 1: making my own shower. It's hard to look at you,
Speaker 1: but we really appreciate y'all coming on.
Speaker 3: We're going to make sure to link to the book,
Speaker 3: which comes out January seventh, by What you Love Without
Speaker 3: Going Broke. And Jen and Jill thank you so much
Speaker 3: for joining us today on the podcast.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having us. It's been a blast, so fun.
Speaker 1: All right, Matt, that was good combo.
Speaker 3: It was great, Man and the jol and Matt equivalence
Speaker 3: over there at right, the Frugal Friends.
Speaker 2: Podcast are our spirits sisters, that's for sure. Totally all right,
Speaker 2: So what what was your big takeaway from this combo mine?
Speaker 1: I guess this is a takeaways.
Speaker 3: It's funny because I'm going to push back like the
Speaker 3: tiniest little bit, which is so contrarian because literally everything
Speaker 3: they say. It's funny because like last week, we talked
Speaker 3: with somebody who everything she said we kind of disagreed
Speaker 3: with at least, you know, when it comes to traditional
Speaker 3: person where we came to some of the conclusions from
Speaker 3: yeah yeah, but like literally everything Jen and Jill are saying,
Speaker 3: it's like, I mean, totally within the wheelhouse of what
Speaker 3: we talk about here on the show. But at one
Speaker 3: point when we're talking about I forget the context. But
Speaker 3: they were hating on the why question, like why do.
Speaker 1: You spend money on this?
Speaker 3: And I don't and I want to push back just respectfully,
Speaker 3: and they're not even here to defend themselves, but I
Speaker 3: think it's okay for us to ask the question why.
Speaker 3: But it's it all comes down to, like the tone
Speaker 3: and the attitude in the heart behind the self examination,
Speaker 3: or like.
Speaker 1: Don't call yourself an idiot while you're doing it, yeah,
Speaker 1: or like.
Speaker 3: There's a big difference between thinking through, man, why do
Speaker 3: I want to spend money on that? Right?
Speaker 1: Versus why would you spend money on that?
Speaker 3: Like there's there's a massive difference there, and you can
Speaker 3: be a curious are an angry why exactly? And so
Speaker 3: maybe that's what we were talking about. Maybe we were
Speaker 3: talking about the curiosity aspect, one of the sub skills
Speaker 3: when it comes to spending money in a healthy way.
Speaker 3: But I think it's really important for us to ask
Speaker 3: the question like why, like what is it about this thing?
Speaker 3: Because what you're doing is you're you know, you're peeling
Speaker 3: back the layers of the onion, trying to get at
Speaker 3: the root of the thing, as opposed to just being
Speaker 3: satisfied on the surface with a purchase that may or
Speaker 3: may not cost you a ton of money, but in
Speaker 3: real maybe there's something a little bit deeper down. Maybe
Speaker 3: you can get closer to the root of the issue,
Speaker 3: and maybe that doesn't even cost money. It's totally okay
Speaker 3: to spend money, but it's I think, like they were
Speaker 3: talking about, really important to identify why it is what
Speaker 3: it is that we're seeking to modify to fulfill, to
Speaker 3: find fulfillment, and you know with some of these different.
Speaker 1: Purchases that we make.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think my big takeaway that was when Jill
Speaker 2: talked about pie.
Speaker 1: She said person in environment. Uh huh. I love that.
Speaker 2: I thought it was so good and she she specifically
Speaker 2: called out clutter kryptonite, and I was like, oh man,
Speaker 2: this is so interesting how the environment we find ourselves
Speaker 2: in were humans, right. But you can put yourself in
Speaker 2: one situation and it's incredibly stressful, and you're going to
Speaker 2: react in one way, and you can put yourself in
Speaker 2: another situation that's incredibly soothing, and you're going to react
Speaker 2: in another. If I'm hanging out in a hammock or
Speaker 2: if I'm in an escape room, I'm going to act
Speaker 2: differently in both contexts. And so I think where we
Speaker 2: place ourselves matters. The things that we're putting in front
Speaker 2: of our eyeballs constantly are attracting our attention, then they're
Speaker 2: suddenly changing the way that we think about life. What matters,
Speaker 2: What how are spending is going to impact our happiness.
Speaker 2: My mom Matt always used to say when I was
Speaker 2: a kid, garbage in garbage out, And I think as
Speaker 2: a culture we're in wise, we're putting so much garbage
Speaker 2: into our lives, into our brains when it comes to
Speaker 2: what we're consuming, and the people were following on social
Speaker 2: media and stuff like that, And then if we were
Speaker 2: just to reduce the amount of garbage going into our brains,
Speaker 2: there's a good chance we'd keep more of our money
Speaker 2: in our wallets too.
Speaker 1: Totally agree, man.
Speaker 3: The beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode
Speaker 3: was a ten fitty, which is an Imperial Stout by
Speaker 3: Oscar Blues Brewery. Another one we recently had on we
Speaker 3: didn't have on We enjoyed a Dale's Pale Ale. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but this is yeah, like I said, an imperial stout.
Speaker 3: What'd you think, man.
Speaker 1: This is what a classic stout is supposed to taste.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it is big, burly, it's roasty, it's not fancy,
Speaker 2: like he doesn't have all these adjuncts and stuff added
Speaker 2: into it. But it's legit.
Speaker 3: I like that you said, Burley, this is like a
Speaker 3: lumberjack of a stout, Like, yes, this is what you imagine,
Speaker 3: like a two hundred and eighty pound lumberjack.
Speaker 1: Like it only does a couple things, but it does
Speaker 1: it really well.
Speaker 2: Right wielding a big ax after a long day of
Speaker 2: chopping down trees is the beery drinks.
Speaker 3: And looking awesome while you're at it. No, yeah, I
Speaker 3: wrote down it's dark and oily like it's almost kind
Speaker 3: of slick, which then made me think of like, not
Speaker 3: like slick as in Weasley, but like, I don't know oily,
Speaker 3: And it also made.
Speaker 1: Me think of soy sauce, Like this beer.
Speaker 3: Had almost like a soy sauce kind of undertone, which
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot more soy sauce in my
Speaker 3: life than there is a lifel But you'll just have
Speaker 3: to take my word for it. But soy sauce in
Speaker 3: the best kind of way when it comes to a stout.
Speaker 1: But I like soy sauce, but I don't imbind it
Speaker 1: merely as much. Don't go through as much of it.
Speaker 1: You guzzle that stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just before we recorded this episode, took my six ounces. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but always do that right after lunch. Here you go, No,
Speaker 3: I don't, but we do go through a good amount
Speaker 3: soy shots in our Household of six.
Speaker 1: But that is going to be it for this episode.
Speaker 3: You can find our show notes up on the website
Speaker 3: at howtomoney dot com, and we will be sure to
Speaker 3: link to Jen and Jill's not not only their book,
Speaker 3: but also their podcast if you want to check it
Speaker 3: out as well. For sure, Buddy, that's going to be
Speaker 3: it for this one. Until next time, best friends out
Speaker 3: and best Friends Out.