WEBVTT - The Fastest Way to Help Animals Isn't Going Vegan | Dan Shannon, Humane League CEO 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:06.920 All right, Dan, will you run the Humane League. It's 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:11.560 one of the largest, arguably most effective animal welfare organizations 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.720 in the world. And I would say generally animal welfare 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.720 organizations have you know, sort of steered people into donat meat, 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:24.119 go vegan. But you recently made a sort of heretical statement, 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.759 which is saying that there's a place for meat eaters 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.160 in the animal welfare movement. Now, before we get into 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.680 why you said that, in your point, I want to 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:38.199 sort of set the stage for people about animal welfare. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:40.920 I think we all sort of inherently know factory farming 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.080 is bad, but like, what are the realities of what 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.239 you're fighting for here? What does that actually mean and 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.320 what happens in factory farming. 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:50.880 Yeah. Absolutely, I agree with what you said. 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:53.600 I think most people have some sense that factory farming 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.080 is not good for animals, it's not good for the planet, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:58.440 it's not good for the people involved. What I don't 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.160 think people have is a good understanding about a couple 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.360 of things. I think one is the scale that factory 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:05.679 farming operates at. 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:07.240 You know, just in this. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:09.880 Country, in the US alone, at any given time, there 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.520 are billions with a b billions of animals living in 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:15.200 factory farming conditions. 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.279 We can talk more about what those conditions look. 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.479 Like, but that's like, you know, at any given time, 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.080 the farm animal population of this planet far exceeds the 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.600 human population, and by several times. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:27.720 So if you just think about. 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.039 The scale of the individuals involved, I think people often 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:33.920 just aren't quite connecting with that piece of it, right, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.200 and how much that's grown significantly over the past, like, 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.520 you know, fifty seventy five years, even from when our 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:41.759 grandparents were you. 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:43.000 Know, we're around. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.959 Another thing that I think people don't really understand is 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.280 the kind of depth of the suffering, right of the 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.040 kind of how bad the welfare conditions are for animals 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:55.960 on in industrialized agriculture. 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:57.840 I think a lot of us, you know, a lot 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.200 of us grew up with the Richard. 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:00.960 Scarry type of book right where it's kind of like 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.480 you've got happy animals grassy fields. It's not to say 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.080 that doesn't exist, right in some parts of this country. 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:09.320 You can drive through on the highway and you might 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.640 see cows kind of out on a grassy field and 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.000 think that seems fine, right, But those conditions represent you know, 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.840 less than like three percent two percent. 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.760 Right of the overall volume. 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.440 Of animals that are living in agriculture at any given time, 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:27.160 and for ninety seven ish percent of animals, the reality 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:28.600 is very different from that. 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:30.960 So we're talking to billions, you know, that are living 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.760 in this different reality which we're about to get into. 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:35.160 Yeah, exactly that. 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.200 And you know, you go to the farmer's marketing, you 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.280 talk to the very nice farmer there. They're probably doing 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.040 a great job, right and then taking animal welfare very seriously. 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.680 But again, they make up a tiny fraction of the 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.200 overall industry. And what the reality is for the majority 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.800 of the industry and the majority of the animals involved, 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.359 is an industrialized approach to agriculture and that means a 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.040 couple of things. It means treating animals more like you know, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:01.359 farm equipment, right, like a track, right, then you would 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.520 dog or a cat, right, And so that manifests in 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:05.359 some different ways. 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.520 That manifests primarily through extreme. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:13.639 Confinement conditions, right, housing animals in the smallest space that's 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.320 economically viable to save money. Right, You save money that 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.320 way by you know, overall operation costs, by the amount 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.840 of feed that these animals eat, because they don't if 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:24.800 they can't move around right, They don't burn a lot 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.000 of calories, so they don't need a lot of feed. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.280 And there's multiple ways that that becomes economical for the industry. 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:32.880 What that means for the animals, right, And to give 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.280 one example is like in the egg industry, which we 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.240 do a lot of work on at the Humane League. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:38.920 Most egg laying. 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.480 Hens live their entire lives and what's called the battery cage, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.840 which is a cage about the size of a file 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:48.400 cabinet fur where you'd see four to six animals living 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:49.320 their entire. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.000 Lives from birth to death, never setting foot outside of it. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.840 In filings, people just like four to six, yeah, exactly. 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.800 Just think about opening your filing cabinet up and there's 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.320 four heads living in entire lives in there. They never 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.280 move right, animals aren't allowed they're not able to spread 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.880 their wings, they're not able to move around right. So 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:11.480 there's the obvious like physical right conditions and the suffering 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.960 that that creates. There's also a sort of you know, 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.679 a kind of mental toll that this takes on the animals, 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:19.560 you know, who have rich inner lives the same as 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:20.479 our cats and dogs do. 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.440 Right. And then chickens, you know, to continue to have. 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:28.320 Example, these are animals whose natural instincts tell them to nest, right, 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.080 to build nests, the dust bathe to perch right. 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.000 And you know, it might seem silly to us because 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:34.440 we don't. 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.360 Have those instincts, but for them, these are like very 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.680 deeply rooted instinctual behaviors that they have. And there's a 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.640 tremendous amount of mental suffering that goes into being having 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.479 all those behaviors frustrated, right, and they're not able. 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.680 To pursue them in the conditions that they live. 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:51.640 Then the third thing that I would point to is 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.640 the kind of social dynamics for these animals, right, Like, 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:59.000 like we are, right, animals inherently social, right, and they're 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.279 just stay you know, the farming environments don't recreate the 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.039 same kinds of social structures, right, familial interactions that that 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:07.000 animals would have. 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:09.640 In most instances, when. 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.560 Pregnant farmed animals give birth, the babies are separated from 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.440 the mothers at the moment of birth, never to see 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.000 them again. Right, And so in all these different ways, 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.599 their inherent social structures are broken apart, and again a 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:22.800 tremendous amount. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.240 Of stress and suffering comes with that. 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.400 And just basically, these animals lives don't look anything like 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.200 what they would look like in the wild, or even 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:35.600 a close proximity to that. And when you think about 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.839 the billions and billions of animals that are living in 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.520 those conditions every day of their lives, every day of 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:44.120 our lives, right, the scale of this issue, I really 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:49.400 truly believe is a moral atrocity of historic proportions, right, 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.320 And I firmly believe that there will come a time 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.800 in the future, well we'll look back on this period 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.760 of animal agriculture and see it as I think what 0:05:57.839 --> 0:05:59.320 a lot of us see it as today, which is 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:04.800 a the historical mistake, right, and a moral failure on 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:06.599 our part to kind of recognize that this is what 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:08.400 we were doing and doing something. But we're not there 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.760 yet obviously, But I think our work at the Human 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.560 League and across the animal protection movement is to try 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.760 to bring that moment about and try to accelerate our part. 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.320 Yeah, I think some people have a point of view 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.400 of well, they're animals, we're humans. They're different, they don't 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:29.400 suffer like us. What do we know about animal's ability 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.680 to suffer mentally? And physically, and then how does that 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:37.279 actually manifest itself based on what either scientists or people 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.680 with organizations like yours see in some of these factory farms. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.760 Yeah, so we do know that animals can, you know, 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.080 scientifically proven too feel pain and suffer basically the same 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:51.560 way that we do, particularly factories, you know, farmed animals, cows, chickens, pigs, 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.799 central nervous system, rights, rebook, cortex. They have all the 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.800 wiring right that they need to feel pain and suffer 0:06:57.839 --> 0:06:59.599 the same way that we do, the same way that 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:04.279 caps it dogs do. Farm animals are more intelligent, I 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:05.640 think than people give them credit for. 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:06.600 Right, when you start. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:11.320 Thinking about the mental aguish Pigs are demonstrably smarter than dogs. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:12.520 And there's no disrespect to dogs. 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:14.160 I have dog, We love dogs, you know, but pigs 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.480 are smarter than dogs, right, And so I often think 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.120 about dogs as our analogy for just like, imagine your 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.000 dog living in these types of conditions and what that 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:23.120 would mean to them, and. 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.400 It's going to be no different from a pig. Right. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.400 I do think it's fair to say that animals are 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.920 different from humans, right, So a lot of people don't 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.880 realize that pigs, right, are proven to be as intelligent 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.880 as dogs. They perform just asia as dogs do on 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.520 animal kind of cognition and intelligence tests. 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.240 So I often think about dogs as our analogy. 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.320 Right, imagine your family dog at home living through the 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:49.080 kinds of conditions that we talked about, and you know, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.080 that's that's kind of what sounds. I do think it's 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.480 fair right to acknowledge that animals and humans are different. 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:57.840 Right, we are not exactly the same. 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.400 But that doesn't mean that the ways that we are 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.840 the same, right, don't need to be taken seriously. Right. 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.120 Nobody's advocating for animals to have the right to vote, right, 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.080 because animals don't need the right to vote. That's not 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.440 a relevant need to them, right. But their need to 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.840 not suffer, right, Their need to live in an environment 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.000 that is natural to them, their need to be with 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.680 their families, and their innate desire to be with their like, 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.680 those things are all very much the same, right, And 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.440 so I often think it's really about thinking about what 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.800 would we do to a doggercat lives in our home, 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.720 and do we feel comfortable right with that same an 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:35.880 animal with that same ability to feel pain and suffer 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.480 at that same ability to kind of experience. 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.400 It living in the kind of conditions we talked abu. 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:41.439 I think most people would agree that. 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.840 Yeah. So now it's a pivot to your So you 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.360 recently took this role at CEO of the Human League. 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:48.040 I think this was about a year a year and 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.120 a half ago, and part of your message is that 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.600 you think there is room for meat eaters in the 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.240 animal welfare movement, which I think when I heard that 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.640 it surprised me. It's like, oh, that's interesting, So unpack that. 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.280 What is your thinking behind that, and we'll get into 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.120 how that was received, But first tell us why that's 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:06.640 your position. 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:11.000 Yeah, I think I don't see I'll be even more direct, 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.440 I don't really see a path to the future that 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.640 I described right, one where we look back and say, 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.679 oh wow, factory farming is really a kind of dark 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:18.720 period in our history. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.360 I don't see any path. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.760 To getting there without the support, right, and the enthusiastic 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.200 participation of people who who eat meat or eat animal products, right, 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.320 who aren't vegetarian or vegan. I say this as somebody 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.680 who's been vegan for almost thirty years myself, right, So 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:33.680 I'm you know, I think that's a great choice for 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.040 people to make and if they're concerned about animal suffering. 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.840 But I don't think it's the only choice, and I 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.000 often think that. I think factory farming is the result 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:47.079 of a set of individual policies, like corporate and public 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.080 policy decisions that have been made along the way. It 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.360 is not this force of nature, It is not this 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:57.520 kind of incontrovertible truth about the man's relation to your humanity's. 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.240 Relationship to animals. It's a choice that we've made. 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.520 It's a result of set of choices that we've made, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:03.520 and to get out of it, we just need to 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.960 make a set of different choices, right as it comes 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:09.880 to corporate policy, right, the way companies manage their food 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:14.040 supply chain, and public policy right and laws and regulations 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.640 that govern the way that animals raise for food and 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:18.280 other things like farm subsidies. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:20.560 And we can get into all the details, all right. 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.080 So, all that said, what was the reaction you got 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.079 from the animal welfare movement when you took that position. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:26.560 Yeah? 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.600 I think historically this is not a popular position in 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.000 the animal protection movement, or at least in a certain 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:33.720 wing of the animal protection movement. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.480 But I think more and more my experience is that 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:38.000 I think the. 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.839 Movement is coming to terms with the idea that I'm 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.240 sharing here, which is that we have to build a 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.679 broader tent of people who care about animals if we're 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.840 going to be effective at achieving our kind of big 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.400 picture objectives in the long term. Again I mentioned I'm 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.200 somebody who happens to have been vegan for a long time, 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.200 but like you know, that's like one percent of us 0:10:58.240 --> 0:10:59.440 one and a half percent of us. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:04.240 Right, And in order to fundamentally. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.839 Reform and ultimately end factory farming, which is our goal 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:08.800 at the Humane leg, we're going to need a broad 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.280 movement of public support to do that. And I don't 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.280 think movements that are measured in the one percent, two percent, 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.800 three percent of people are ultimately sufficient at being able 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:19.079 to achieve those kinds of. 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.199 Big structural change type of objectives. 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.720 So I find that more and more people are embracing 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.920 that idea, and I think I've been a part of 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.520 a lot of conversations recently across the movement about like, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.679 what does it actually look like to implement that, How 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.560 do we think about messaging, how do we think about outreach, 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.400 how do we think about programs and campaigns you know 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.840 that create more of that kind of welcoming environment and 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.800 invite people right who don't identify as vegetarian or begins 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.240 into the movement. And I think we're going to I 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.440 expect to be seeing a lot more of that kind 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:54.360 of activity happening. 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:58.000 Yeah, what are those initial sort of outreaches and messaging, 0:11:58.080 --> 0:11:59.960 What do those look like? What's been the reaction? 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:01.040 Yeah? 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.880 So I think a lot of people, as you you 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.920 framed the conversation this way, you know, the story they've 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.480 heard is factory farming is bad for animals. Basically it's 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.840 your fault, right, because of the personal dietary choices that 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.520 you make, and the responsibility is on you the change. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.640 I don't you know, is there a small amount of 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:23.559 truth to that story shore, but I don't think it's 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.000 the full truth or the kind of real truth, right. 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.280 The real truth is a factory farming even for people 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.040 who eat me to eat animal products. This isn't something 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.040 that anybody asked for, right. These are a set of 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.720 decisions that were made by people in positions of power 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.080 and influence, you know, at corporations and the government, right 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.520 that have brought us to this place. And I think 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.880 people have a tremendous amount of power right more than 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:53.520 we realize to influence those decision makers right, those companies, governments, 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:58.679 state and local legislatures, et cetera, to make different choices right. 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.440 And it will take a lot of different choice is 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:01.520 over a long period. 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.720 Of time to kind of back out of the factory 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.839 farming industry that we've we've we've put ourselves into. 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:08.560 But it can be done right. 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.520 And I think it's really about asking people to flex 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:16.000 their citizen power right, their ability to make phone calls 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.680 to members of Congress and legislators, right to talk to 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.199 the companies that they might stop. 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.240 For about wanting to see higher welfare standards and. 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.560 Options at the grocery store and restaurants, right, acting as 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.920 citizens right, I think the way many of us are 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.280 used to acting on other issues that we might care about, 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.400 whether it's climate or public health or other things, and 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.040 not only ask people to flex their consumer power right 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:38.600 sort of are the what do they choose to. 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:39.400 Buy and what do they choose to be? 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.480 Yeah, And I think to your point that no one 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.560 made the decision for us, it really was. It really 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.560 did just come down to a mathematical equation of saving money. 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.679 Now to your point about how animals are treated as 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.400 farm equipment. If you're talking about farm equipment and how 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.480 to make that more efficient, great, we're talking about pieces 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.640 of steel and oil and all these things. But when 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.240 we're talking about sending of beans, that becomes really problematic 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:04.960 to put something like that into a math equation. 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:07.480 I think two. 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.440 When the request is made for people to go from 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.679 say standard American diet to vegan, it's kind of like 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.920 asking someone to go from A to Z, not A 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.440 to B, T C T D. So what, in your 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.880 mind are some of the first steps someone can take 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.320 to get to be so they can then go to 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.240 C and then D and then see how far down 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:31.760 the alphabet line they can go. 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:32.400 Yeah. 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.080 Absolutely, So a lot of our work at the Human 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:39.160 League is about sort of mobilizing citizen power to influence 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.600 institutional decision making. And I think there's a lot of 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.360 early steps that people can take, you know, whether it's 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.760 with our organization or somebody else. Right in that being, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.680 we do a lot of work and other organizations across 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.200 the movement to get companies to improve animal welfare in 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.880 their supply chain. Right As an example, we're working we're 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.800 trying to get Kroger right now, one of the largest 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:03.640 groceryanies in the in the country, to go fully cage 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.800 breed with their eggs supply right, to kind of no 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.640 longer buy eggs and sell eggs from farms that look 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.920 like what I described previously and buy them from from 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.360 cage three farms that we should be clear are also 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.960 still not great for animals, but a significant improvement right 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.800 on the kind of traditional battery cage system that we describe. 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.760 So people can call a company like Kroger and ask 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:25.760 them what their cage free policy is, and if it's not, 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:27.920 you know, one hundred percent cage f resourcing, ask them 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:28.240 why not. 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:29.920 Then you know what they can do about it. 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.760 And if they shop at a local Kroger right, they 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.080 could maybe choose to take their business elsewhere, or at 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.000 least talk to the manager at the store right kind 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.600 of make their voice for There's also a lot of 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.480 work being done to protect farmed animals at the public 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.960 policy level. So right now, as some of your audience 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.280 may be familiar, there's a big debate in Congress over 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.800 the next draft of the Farm Build Right and whether 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.200 or not it will include language that would overturn a 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.720 set of state level animal welfare laws and states California 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.000 and Massachusetts that have passed laws that actually ban a 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.240 lot of the kind of extreme confinement systems that we 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.920 talked about earlier. So like very strong, very good, very 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.560 powerful laws. The industry doesn't like these laws for obvious reasons, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.600 and so they're lobbyists in Congress are trying to push 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:19.280 to kill them. And there's a language and the Houses 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.320 draft of the Farm Bill that would essentially overturn a 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.560 set of state level laws that were past democratic right, 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.520 either through ballot measures where the billain in California at 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.120 Propositions twelve passed with twenty five percent margin, right, like 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.600 it was like seventy five to something. I forget massive 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.000 popular support for laws like this across the country. So 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.640 not only is it bad for animals, it's fundamentally undemocratic 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.240 right for the federal government to say we don't like. 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.160 Your state laws, we're going to overturn them. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.040 So right, that's an example where people can make a 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:52.880 phone call to their member of Congress or for their 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.560 senator and say, how are you planning to vote on 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.520 this bill? Right? Please don't vote on any bill that 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.120 would strip annimal welfare protect at the state level. That's 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.800 just one example of a policy app here in New York. 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:06.800 Right in New York City where I live, we have 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.399 a ban on flagra in the city, which is a 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.480 product that's produced using very cruel methods that I won't 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.520 get into because they're too impleasant. 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:15.720 To talk about. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.280 So there's a lot of policy public policy opportunities for 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.919 people to think about using their voting power right to 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.720 support candidates that have a good position on farm animal 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:30.280 welfare and speak up against individual bills that would be 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.920 bad for animals or in favorable Yeah. 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:34.960 That makes sense to kind of give you an anecdote 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.440 at the personal level with me, I mean, I was 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.960 one of those people like I think every single American 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.840 is where you know that factory farming is bad, but 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.840 you're like you just kind of you fall into it anyways, 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.280 and you don't think about it all that often. Then 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.679 I read Animal Liberation Now by Peter Singer. He's a 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.760 philosopher at Princeton. Really, I would argue kind of started 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.159 the movement. So I read this book. It was the 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.400 updated edition of his book. I was like, oh my god, 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.560 I had no idea, how bad it is on so 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:12.159 many levels, and so I went vegan. I wrote it 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.919 out for a while, but then eventually, because I travel 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:16.720 so much for work and I'm always on the move, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.240 I found it really really difficult. You know, I'd be 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.040 in an airport and I'd be like, I don't think 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.760 there's anything for me to eat here beyond trail mix. 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:30.560 So what I started to do is pivot into having 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:32.680 some animal products in my diet. But what I did 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.479 is I looked for places where do I need animal 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.200 products here? So, for example, at breakfast, if I'm using 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.320 Way Protein, oh, it turns out that like all these 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.480 companies now make amazing vegetable protein powders, and I can 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.320 have an apple and some blueberries. At lunch, if I 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.520 was going to eat ex meat, it's like, oh, you 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.199 know what, I also really enjoy air fried tofu, So 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.080 now I'm going to swap that out. Now at dinner 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.560