WEBVTT - Liam Le Guillou: An Unknown Compelling Force PT 1

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<v Speaker 1>This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 2>Was that accidental given the condition they're in? In hypothermia

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<v Speaker 2>now absolutely setting in? Did they just accidentally burn themselves

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<v Speaker 2>or was it something else?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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<v Speaker 1>in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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<v Speaker 1>research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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<v Speaker 1>me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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<v Speaker 1>with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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<v Speaker 1>and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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<v Speaker 1>crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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<v Speaker 1>good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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<v Speaker 1>unpublished details behind their stories. Filmmaker Liam Legueu was fascinated

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<v Speaker 1>with the mystery surrounding the deaths of nine experienced Russian

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<v Speaker 1>hikers in the Ural Mountains in nineteen fifty nine. Paul

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<v Speaker 1>Holes and I talked about this case on Buried Bones,

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<v Speaker 1>but Liam really really dug into the mystery. He has

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<v Speaker 1>his own opinion and he shares it in his documentary

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<v Speaker 1>and unknown compelling force. We rarely do this, but we

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<v Speaker 1>had to make this interview a two parter. So this

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<v Speaker 1>is a story that people had recommended that I look

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<v Speaker 1>at for quite a while, I never did, and when

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<v Speaker 1>I finally did, I just thought, how come nobody's done

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<v Speaker 1>anything really big? It felt like, you know, on this

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<v Speaker 1>story because it is such a mystery, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I shows her true crime based and this is so

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating to people when you know, they reached out from

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<v Speaker 1>after we aired our episode of Buried Bones about it.

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<v Speaker 1>When they were reaching out, people were mesmerized by the story.

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<v Speaker 1>What drew you to it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, like you, I mean, it's such a fascinating story,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was. I listened to a podcast about it,

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<v Speaker 2>and it'd been on my radio. I'm always interested in

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<v Speaker 2>mysterious stories, so I'd heard about it before and listened

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<v Speaker 2>to a great podcast talking about it, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>all just, you know, everyone talking about ideas, but no

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<v Speaker 2>one had really studied it and went there and tried

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<v Speaker 2>to like really understand this. So I thought, this's gotta

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<v Speaker 2>be a documentary on this. So I googled around and

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<v Speaker 2>there were a couple of TV show type episodes, but

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<v Speaker 2>not really an in depth study, and I thought, this

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<v Speaker 2>is crazy. Why doesn't someone just go there? There are

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<v Speaker 2>so many wild theories. Why doesn't someone go there and

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<v Speaker 2>just figure this out and like at least debunk some

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<v Speaker 2>of the craziest ones. And so I thought, well, why

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<v Speaker 2>don't I go? And so that was the beginnings of

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<v Speaker 2>really the idea to having this idea to make this

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<v Speaker 2>film and to going there. Was only a couple of months.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw this window of opportunity, got in touch with

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<v Speaker 2>some people, and I was on a plane and it

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<v Speaker 2>just unfolded so quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to hear in a little bit you'll describe

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<v Speaker 1>what the conditions were like for this group, But tell me,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you even approach getting to this location? Is

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<v Speaker 1>it easier now than it was for them?

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's still very difficult. It's still remote where you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're one hundred tommi kilometers deep in the ural mountains,

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<v Speaker 2>sub polar conditions. And so one of the reasons why

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<v Speaker 2>I had to go so quickly was I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>go at the same time of year that they went,

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<v Speaker 2>because I wanted to experience the conditions, because the conditions

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<v Speaker 2>do play a part in this story and so if

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<v Speaker 2>I went there in the summer, it wouldn't have the

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<v Speaker 2>same effect. I wouldn't really get the idea of what

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<v Speaker 2>they were doing. So I managed to find a guide

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<v Speaker 2>breathe or stupid enough to take me to the Datlove

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<v Speaker 2>Path and we did an a nine day snow expedition

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<v Speaker 2>to the Datlove Pass in sub polar conditions. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>quite an advent.

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<v Speaker 1>So was it just you and this guide or did

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<v Speaker 1>you have and you had crew?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so very small crew. So we had essentially the

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<v Speaker 2>filmmaking crew was myself and my my fellow camera friend Corey,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was really just the two of us went

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<v Speaker 2>to Russia, and then the crew that took us there

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<v Speaker 2>was a team of about five or six people. There

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<v Speaker 2>was actually two other guys on snowmobiles with us, and

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<v Speaker 2>we took snowmobiles through part of the journey, and then

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<v Speaker 2>there was actually a dog sled team following behind us,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a backup in case of emergencies. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>there was there was a couple of options. But there's

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<v Speaker 2>a there's a moment in the film where I say,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, what, what do we do if we get

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<v Speaker 2>into trouble? What happens if someone gets hurt, what do

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<v Speaker 2>we do. We're in the middle of nowhere, and he says, well,

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<v Speaker 2>we have a GPS communicator and we can call someone

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<v Speaker 2>to bring your body back.

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<v Speaker 1>Gosh.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was wasn't for the faint of heart.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course, you know we had heard in the

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<v Speaker 1>past about the avalanche that happened in California and how

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<v Speaker 1>horrific that was. Describe to me how that must have felt,

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<v Speaker 1>knowing that things can turn on a dime in a

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<v Speaker 1>place like that and you can be hit by an avalanche,

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<v Speaker 1>Am I assuming right, with just no warning whatsoever?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, avalanches can certainly happen. I mean the research i'd done,

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<v Speaker 2>which at that point I was only a few months

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<v Speaker 2>into it, was perhaps limited, but from what I understood it,

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<v Speaker 2>it was very unlikely that an avalanche can take part

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<v Speaker 2>take place in this area. And so we'll get into

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<v Speaker 2>that in a moment, because an avalanche is a big theory,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's very unlikely an avalanche took place there, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I wasn't too concerned about avalanches. But when you're

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<v Speaker 2>just that remote in incredibly cold temperatures, you know, that's

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<v Speaker 2>the biggest concern. You could get hurt by falling off

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<v Speaker 2>the snowmobile. And actually on our return journey, we did

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<v Speaker 2>have a moment where the snowmobiles got stuck in too

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<v Speaker 2>much powder. We couldn't get them going, so we were

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<v Speaker 2>all getting very cold, and that was a concern. I

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<v Speaker 2>saw my guide getting worried, and he said, look, why

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<v Speaker 2>don't two of us or three of us start walking

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<v Speaker 2>just to keep our body temperatures up whilst they try

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<v Speaker 2>and dig out the snowmobiles, because hanging around for very

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<v Speaker 2>long at those temperatures will kill you.

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<v Speaker 1>Man. Tell me what the lowest temperature was when you

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<v Speaker 1>were there, and how much snow? What's the maximum amount

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<v Speaker 1>of snow that you experienced.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, there's a moment in the film where we dig

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<v Speaker 2>a tent really close to the Diatlov site and we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to camp for the night and attempt to make

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<v Speaker 2>it to the Datlov pass area the next day. Whilst

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<v Speaker 2>that was happening, a snowstorm came in and I can't

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<v Speaker 2>remember the exact temperatures, but we were and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm British, so I lean into Celsius, but we were

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<v Speaker 2>like minus thirty something in Celsius, which is incredibly low.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean and the storm was coming in. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>moment where I'm walking around thinking, oh, we're were kind

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<v Speaker 2>of in trouble right now. So it was really a

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<v Speaker 2>night where we had to hunker down the tent and

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<v Speaker 2>just hope for better weather the next day. But it

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<v Speaker 2>was that masses of snow, several feet of snow dumped

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<v Speaker 2>on us that night that we were like that put

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<v Speaker 2>the snowmobiles in trouble for our return journey.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, now let's go back to when this happened in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifty nine. Knowing this, this group of hikers would

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<v Speaker 1>have known all of that, right that this was the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of danger what motivates them to do this?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this is the interesting thing. So they were

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<v Speaker 2>actually incredibly experienced outdoors people, and they were going for

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<v Speaker 2>their Category three certificate, which is the highest category in

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<v Speaker 2>training in this Soviet Union at the time, for their

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<v Speaker 2>outdoor education. So they'd done a lot of this before.

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<v Speaker 2>They weren't amateurs. They knew what they were doing. They

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<v Speaker 2>were many of them were members of the polytechnic school

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<v Speaker 2>and they'd come from that area and they were students,

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<v Speaker 2>most of them, and they knew what they were doing.

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<v Speaker 2>They were out there they wanted this highest category. They'd

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<v Speaker 2>already done the previous two categories. They'd done this before.

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<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, as I said, they knew what they

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<v Speaker 2>were doing. And so these weren't amateurs, so they knew

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<v Speaker 2>what to expect and they knew how to handle problems

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<v Speaker 2>when they arose.

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<v Speaker 1>And had there been many people who had explored this

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<v Speaker 1>area before they went there. This cannot be on some

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<v Speaker 1>big route of mountaineering, I imagine.

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<v Speaker 2>So the exact route they were taking was fairly unique

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<v Speaker 2>to them. It wasn't super explored. The maps at the

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<v Speaker 2>time weren't super explored. They were actually heading to the

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<v Speaker 2>mountain that they found on the tragedy happened on I

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<v Speaker 2>say mountain, it feels more like a hill, actually a

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<v Speaker 2>big hill, But they were actually going for a different mountain,

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<v Speaker 2>mount or Tartan. That was their goal. They never reached

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<v Speaker 2>that goal, unfortunately. And yeah, this route so at all

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<v Speaker 2>ten had been explored before, but this route that they

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<v Speaker 2>were taking was fairly unique.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about potential. I don't know if predators is

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<v Speaker 1>the right word, but what are the animals that they

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<v Speaker 1>could encounter? Besides worrying about hypothermia and exhaustion, what were

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<v Speaker 1>the animals they might encounter, and were there any people

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<v Speaker 1>that they might encounter that they'd have to be concerned about.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, I mean, yes, there are bears out there.

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<v Speaker 2>Bears are definitely an option in the theories that come up.

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<v Speaker 2>So was this an animal attack? Bears are probably the

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<v Speaker 2>only real animal that realistically could have been out there

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<v Speaker 2>to harm them, but it's also unlikely. They're not not

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<v Speaker 2>known for that, and when we get into the details

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<v Speaker 2>a bit little later, there isn't There is not evidence

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<v Speaker 2>of an animal attack. And in terms of people, so

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<v Speaker 2>this is an interesting thing. So there are a number

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<v Speaker 2>of indigenous people that live in the area. There's two

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<v Speaker 2>sort of known indigenous people, the Mansi people and the

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<v Speaker 2>Khanti people, and they are known to be in and

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<v Speaker 2>around the area. Now would they be cautious of them?

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<v Speaker 2>There had historically been troubles with Soviet rushing people moving

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<v Speaker 2>into the areas that were traditionally Mansi and Khanti people's areas,

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<v Speaker 2>and there are some documented cases of violence between the

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<v Speaker 2>two peoples. But that's to say that at the same time,

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<v Speaker 2>certainly in the area they were in, there were a

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<v Speaker 2>number of Manti people who were involved in the search team,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were actively helping and trying to help this

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<v Speaker 2>whole matter. So, yeah, I wouldn't want to group a

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<v Speaker 2>whole group of people and sort of, you know, sort

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<v Speaker 2>of put a bad name to whole group of people.

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<v Speaker 2>But were there individuals out there, unknown individuals? Yeah? Possibly,

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<v Speaker 2>And again I can come to that a bit more

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<v Speaker 2>in the moment.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well let's start from the beginning. How do they

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<v Speaker 1>make this decision? And who are the but we're talking about?

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<v Speaker 1>I think, you know the cases that I've done, this

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<v Speaker 1>is the largest group that I've ever you know, that

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<v Speaker 1>I've ever kind of tried to dig into and figure

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<v Speaker 1>out what the personalities were, Like, how do you approach

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<v Speaker 1>this in the film? How do you differentiate between all

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<v Speaker 1>of these people?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So I had this opportunity to go to Russia

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<v Speaker 2>and try and speak to the people that knew them. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a gentleman who ran the foundation for trying

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<v Speaker 2>to tell this story, a gentleman called Yuri Kunsfitch. It's

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<v Speaker 2>another year. There's can be quite a few yuries in

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<v Speaker 2>this story. But I met him and I stayed with

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<v Speaker 2>him and his wife, A really wonderful gentleman who taken

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<v Speaker 2>upon himself to really tell the whole story of the

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<v Speaker 2>doubt love past story. And he explained to and showed

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<v Speaker 2>to me that, you know, these were real people. There

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<v Speaker 2>were young students. They were ten hikers in all that

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<v Speaker 2>went on this journey. Nine of them were young, between

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<v Speaker 2>twenty and twenty three years old. One member was older.

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<v Speaker 2>He was thirty seven years old. I believe he was

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<v Speaker 2>an ex military guy who'd been through World War Two,

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<v Speaker 2>so he's kind of an anomaly. And his name kind

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<v Speaker 2>of appear a little bit later. His name was a

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<v Speaker 2>Sasha or Semyon's solitary off nickname Sasha, And just because

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<v Speaker 2>he was older and ex military, he comes up in

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<v Speaker 2>some of the kind of conspiracy theories, but we can

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<v Speaker 2>get to that. But the rest of them were all students,

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<v Speaker 2>They all knew each other, they all wanted this certificate,

0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.520
<v Speaker 2>they all excited to do this, and they'd all done

0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:27.600
<v Speaker 2>it before. So how it approached it in the film

0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:29.480
<v Speaker 2>was to really try and speak to some of the

0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.000
<v Speaker 2>people that knew them and get them to tell some

0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.520
<v Speaker 2>of their stories. And there were young people. There was

0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.600
<v Speaker 2>some romantic relationships amongst the young people. It was it

0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 2>was two girls and seven guys, one guy and one

0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.839
<v Speaker 2>girl had a relationship at some point and then they

0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.680
<v Speaker 2>had it had called off, and she felt a little

0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.800
<v Speaker 2>bit upset that that happened. Maybe, But they kept diaries,

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.360
<v Speaker 2>and I should say that they kept diaries of this journey,

0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.400
<v Speaker 2>and so this is how we know this information. And

0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>every night in the tent they would update their diaries,

0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.880
<v Speaker 2>and so we got a fascinating insight as to who

0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:09.079
<v Speaker 2>they were as just young people enjoying the great outdoors.

0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.160
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I think about this, and when I interview people

0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.560
<v Speaker 1>authors or filmmakers who use diaries, because I've used diaries too,

0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.440
<v Speaker 1>of course, I often think about, you know, the people

0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.360
<v Speaker 1>who are who are writing in these pages, it certainly

0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.439
<v Speaker 1>would not have been thrilled about having their inmost thoughts

0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 1>broadcasted out. And I think about that, the responsibility of

0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.560
<v Speaker 1>picking and choosing the right things that are relevant. Did

0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.120
<v Speaker 1>you ever have to really think about that with, you know,

0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.880
<v Speaker 1>with these people who were out and they die mysteriously,

0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:37.880
<v Speaker 1>and when you look in the diaries, you're looking for

0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.360
<v Speaker 1>maybe clues, but really ways to illuminate them as people.

0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:45.040
<v Speaker 1>But that responsibility is great, I think, yeah.

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:46.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think we're fortunate in this case that

0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the diaries were mostly fairly brief and fairly factual because

0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.880
<v Speaker 2>they were on the hype. They were writing in the

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.560
<v Speaker 2>tent at night, and you know they were they were

0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.640
<v Speaker 2>they kept it kind of this is what we did today.

0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.240
<v Speaker 2>These are the people we met along the way. That

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 2>it was fairly like that. But there are a few

0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.280
<v Speaker 2>moments in the diaries that were just before the trip,

0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.720
<v Speaker 2>particularly where one of the girls, Zena, she mentioned that

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 2>her relationship with this other chap Rustam had had called

0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:17.760
<v Speaker 2>off and she was a little bit disappointed about it,

0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 2>and she hoped that it wouldn't get weird on the trip.

0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.560
<v Speaker 2>And so there's not too much information there, but it

0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.360
<v Speaker 2>says something I think humanizes them and reminds us he's

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 2>just young kids, just having a great time out there.

0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.640
<v Speaker 1>Were they well prepared from what you can tell her

0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 1>what experts have told you, knowing whatever was in their

0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.920
<v Speaker 1>inventory list. And I know there's lots of photos, which

0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:38.800
<v Speaker 1>is wonderful.

0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the photos are a key part of this

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.080
<v Speaker 2>mystery and the evidence that we have, and we we

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.440
<v Speaker 2>use a lot of those in the film, which is

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.360
<v Speaker 2>really good to kind of see them and see their journey.

0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.520
<v Speaker 2>You see them having a lot of fun along the way.

0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:55.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, they're goofing around in the snow and it's

0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.440
<v Speaker 2>it's a great moment. But yeah, they were well prepared

0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.160
<v Speaker 2>as you can and be in nineteen fifty nine. Obviously,

0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.960
<v Speaker 2>the technology that we have now for outdoor wear and

0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 2>tents and is so much better to me. Their tent

0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.560
<v Speaker 2>looked horribly rude of entry to my eyes as an

0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.560
<v Speaker 2>outdoors person myself now, but it worked. It was functional,

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 2>and they had a stove that they would burn fuel on,

0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.840
<v Speaker 2>like wood, and that was inside the tent, and it

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 2>had a functional kind of chimney hole that would go out,

0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.680
<v Speaker 2>and so they knew how to keep themselves warm. And

0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:33.920
<v Speaker 2>as I said, they've done this many times before. They

0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>were going for their highest category. This would allow them

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 2>to be tutors and guides of their own right, so

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.360
<v Speaker 2>they could go out and take other students out with

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.160
<v Speaker 2>this category. So they knew what they were doing and

0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:45.840
<v Speaker 2>they were prepared.

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.160
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so they start out with ten, right, but then

0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:50.840
<v Speaker 1>that changes at some point.

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 2>That's right. Yes, So one of the members, uri Udent,

0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.800
<v Speaker 2>just about five days into the trip, he had to count.

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.320
<v Speaker 2>He had to kind of get out and head home.

0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:06.040
<v Speaker 2>He suffered from like a psciatica back pain and it

0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.480
<v Speaker 2>flared up and he just realized he couldn't go any further.

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.640
<v Speaker 2>And so they reached a logging community where they'd stayed

0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.600
<v Speaker 2>for the night, and there was you know, local people

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.480
<v Speaker 2>working out in this area, and they said, hey, we

0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 2>can take you back. We've got a horse and cart somewhere.

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:24.360
<v Speaker 2>We can give you a ride home and he can

0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.600
<v Speaker 2>head back. So he had and there's that moment was

0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 2>actually captured in their photographs. They really took a lot

0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.360
<v Speaker 2>of photographs with him hugging and saying goodbye to his friends,

0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, fully upset to mister trip, but realizing, you know,

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.280
<v Speaker 2>he'll see them in a couple of weeks time and

0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.280
<v Speaker 2>they'll catch up and everything will be great now. He

0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately he'd passed away before I went to Russia. But

0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 2>he really spent his whole life kind of feeling lost

0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.000
<v Speaker 2>by this tragedy and not knowing what happened to them.

0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.120
<v Speaker 2>And at his request, he asked to be buried in

0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the same cemetery right next to and along with his

0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.040
<v Speaker 2>friends in your kettering Berg in Russia. So yeah, it

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.120
<v Speaker 2>was a part of his life that really affected him.

0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.840
<v Speaker 1>So now once he is gone, the trip continues on.

0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Are they on track where they end up is where

0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.440
<v Speaker 1>they anticipated going, or does something go awry that turns

0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:22.439
<v Speaker 1>them in a different direction.

0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.520
<v Speaker 2>They are pretty much on track. They're heading in the

0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.920
<v Speaker 2>right direction, the heading where they're supposed to be going

0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.639
<v Speaker 2>for sure. There's a little bit of debate as to

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.720
<v Speaker 2>why they decided to head up this mountain at this time,

0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.120
<v Speaker 2>because what happens is on the night that this event happened,

0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.760
<v Speaker 2>the weather did turn bad, and by the sounds of it,

0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.280
<v Speaker 2>they didn't get very far from where they camped the

0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 2>night before, and to where the tent was eventually found

0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.159
<v Speaker 2>was not very far at all. So it looks like

0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.440
<v Speaker 2>they'd hoped to go further over the ridge that day

0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.000
<v Speaker 2>and maybe even push all the way to the mountain

0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.280
<v Speaker 2>they were aiming for. They didn't make it, and so

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:04.040
<v Speaker 2>they decided to camp on this hill. And so they

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.240
<v Speaker 2>decided to camp on this hill, which this wasn't part

0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.720
<v Speaker 2>of the plan as far as anyone could tell, and

0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.880
<v Speaker 2>it's not the ideal place to camp. I think they

0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.680
<v Speaker 2>were pushed into camping there because the weather had turned

0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.760
<v Speaker 2>against them, and it probably was a white out blizzard.

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.879
<v Speaker 2>And there are a few photos of them pitching the

0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.399
<v Speaker 2>tent for the last time, and you could tell the

0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.480
<v Speaker 2>conditions are very very bad. It does look like they

0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.840
<v Speaker 2>had very poor visibility. So yeah, this was they forgured

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:34.520
<v Speaker 2>they'd make the best of it and camp here for

0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:34.880
<v Speaker 2>the night.

0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 1>Did somebody know what their planned root would be? Was

0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.040
<v Speaker 1>there some sort of like manifest or itinerary that someone

0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:44.160
<v Speaker 1>else had back at home?

0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Absolutely, So their whole routemate had to be approved,

0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.639
<v Speaker 2>planned out and approved by the governing body that was

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.720
<v Speaker 2>tracking and giving them certificate, and so this was discussed

0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:59.119
<v Speaker 2>and approved in advance. So this was an approved route.

0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.240
<v Speaker 2>There a little bit of deviation to it, which side

0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 2>of the ridge you may or may not go up

0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:07.080
<v Speaker 2>on because it was fairly unexplored, and so you know,

0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.120
<v Speaker 2>you have to make the best of it. But yeah,

0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 2>ultimately they were they were pretty much on track.

0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, I don't know if you spoke to family

0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.399
<v Speaker 1>members or friends. I think you probably did. Of the

0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.560
<v Speaker 1>people in this group, did anybody in their personal lives

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.359
<v Speaker 1>express trepidation about them making this trip knowing that it

0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.560
<v Speaker 1>was a largely unexplored area. Were there people worrying about.

0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.840
<v Speaker 2>Them Honestly, I'd never got that vibe from anyone. I

0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.600
<v Speaker 2>think they all understood this. They'd all done this. They

0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.600
<v Speaker 2>were they did a lot of these hikes before, and

0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.119
<v Speaker 2>their friends also did hikes before. One of the friends

0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 2>I spoke to had planned to be on this trip

0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.840
<v Speaker 2>and just missed out. He couldn't go last minute, so

0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.600
<v Speaker 2>he just got away with it as well, and he said,

0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:52.040
<v Speaker 2>we'd done these hikes before. I mean, it was unique.

0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:54.000
<v Speaker 2>It was a little bit venturing into the unknown, but

0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.240
<v Speaker 2>not so much that they didn't know what they were doing.

0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.640
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, none of them really seemed too concerned about it.

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.719
<v Speaker 1>So what was their check in procedure? Like are they

0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.720
<v Speaker 1>writing letters to people at different posts or what's happening?

0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.520
<v Speaker 2>No, that's an interesting point. I mean, we don't have

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.720
<v Speaker 2>any of the communications we have today, right, so it's

0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.240
<v Speaker 2>very hard. There are no Once they left a couple

0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.240
<v Speaker 2>of the logging communities, they were expecting not to meet

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.159
<v Speaker 2>anyone else for at least a few days. So in fact,

0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.399
<v Speaker 2>the polytechnic school that they were supposed to report back to,

0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:32.119
<v Speaker 2>we're not expecting to hear back to them until February twelfth,

0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:35.160
<v Speaker 2>I believe. And the events that this took happen were

0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:39.680
<v Speaker 2>on February the first, so it was the alarm wasn't

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:44.439
<v Speaker 2>raised really until the fourteenth or fifteenth, I think, and

0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.679
<v Speaker 2>so two weeks later. No one was expecting anything was

0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:49.639
<v Speaker 2>out of the ordinary for at least two weeks.

0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.119
<v Speaker 1>So they do not get to where they want to

0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.080
<v Speaker 1>be on that particular day, they hit bad weather and

0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:57.679
<v Speaker 1>they are pitching the tent. And I know you have

0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.399
<v Speaker 1>photos of that. Will you describe what it looked like.

0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.200
<v Speaker 1>I remember from the photo it's just vastness everywhere. I mean,

0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.840
<v Speaker 1>it was like it was like an ocean of snow

0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.520
<v Speaker 1>to me. But I'm sure have a better description than

0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:09.800
<v Speaker 1>I do.

0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So it isn't as I mean, you're definitely out there.

0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.600
<v Speaker 2>There's there's no there's no houses, no buildings, no structures,

0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.240
<v Speaker 2>there's no help. Right. But but where it was and

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.760
<v Speaker 2>where we managed to make it to that tent site,

0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.119
<v Speaker 2>it's it's on the side of a hill. It's you

0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.680
<v Speaker 2>can tell that they weren't one hundred percent sure where

0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.879
<v Speaker 2>they were. They were climbing up to a ridge and

0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.040
<v Speaker 2>they were going to follow this ridge around the hill

0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.040
<v Speaker 2>onto the next mountain. So they were more on the

0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.280
<v Speaker 2>side of the hill than on top of the ridge.

0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.200
<v Speaker 2>They were neither halfway up halfway down. So it felt

0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.200
<v Speaker 2>like they were like, Okay, we we're a bit lost

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:50.760
<v Speaker 2>right now, let's put the tent here, wait until the

0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:52.720
<v Speaker 2>weather gets better, and we'll figure it out in the morning.

0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.879
<v Speaker 2>That's that's the impression I got. But when you go there,

0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:58.480
<v Speaker 2>for them, they didn't know exactly where they were. But

0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:00.320
<v Speaker 2>when you go there, you can look down down the

0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:04.639
<v Speaker 2>hill and uh, there's a tree line at the base,

0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.280
<v Speaker 2>and so yeah, in clearer weather it makes a lot

0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.800
<v Speaker 2>more sense. But they didn't have that clear clear weather.

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:14.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so they've pitched this tent, and I guess at

0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.199
<v Speaker 1>this point is it mostly based on the evidence and

0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.280
<v Speaker 1>the photographs that they took of what the inside of

0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.440
<v Speaker 1>the tent looked like. And I know that the tear

0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 1>that we'll discuss too, that was in the tent. The

0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.760
<v Speaker 1>rest of this is this conjecture or is it hobbling together?

0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:33.359
<v Speaker 1>You know what they think happens after this just based

0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:35.760
<v Speaker 1>on where the shoes were where, you know, all of

0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:36.360
<v Speaker 1>this stuff.

0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:40.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there's there's not too much evidence beyond this point.

0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.359
<v Speaker 2>So they pitched the tent. There are a number of photos.

0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:48.600
<v Speaker 2>There's one highly debated unusual photograph that looks like some

0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.679
<v Speaker 2>unusual lights in the sky. This gets talked a lot

0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:53.800
<v Speaker 2>about in conspiracy theory. Is this one of the last

0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.280
<v Speaker 2>photos ever found on any of the cameras. They didn't

0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:01.760
<v Speaker 2>keep any diary notes that evening, so there's no solid

0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.040
<v Speaker 2>evidence of what happened next other than the fact that

0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:07.959
<v Speaker 2>you know, they go missing and then eventually the bodies

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 2>are found, and they're found in a very spread out area,

0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:16.160
<v Speaker 2>which is in itself evidence. And yeah, so from here

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:18.520
<v Speaker 2>on in we have to kind of piece this puzzle together.

0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:23.960
<v Speaker 2>And there are so many completely weird beyond out their

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.359
<v Speaker 2>mysterious things that make it hard to make this story

0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:28.879
<v Speaker 2>make sense.

0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:33.560
<v Speaker 1>So they have the tent and let's, I guess just

0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:37.119
<v Speaker 1>freeze real quick and talk about when people think something

0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.000
<v Speaker 1>has gone wrong, and then you know, when you have

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.400
<v Speaker 1>people show up and they start putting together the clues,

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.160
<v Speaker 1>then we can talk about the various conspiracies that are happening.

0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.480
<v Speaker 1>So when does this become alarming? Is it when the

0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:52.840
<v Speaker 1>governing body realizes after the fourteenth they haven't checked in.

0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so from around that date they haven't checked in,

0:23:57.359 --> 0:23:59.800
<v Speaker 2>And I think they send out the Actually the alarm

0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:02.360
<v Speaker 2>was on the sixteenth of February, they would you back

0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:05.560
<v Speaker 2>on the twelfth, so four days after the alarm was raised,

0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:08.760
<v Speaker 2>and so they somewhere in the next couple of days

0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:13.040
<v Speaker 2>they start sending out search parties, so that involves planes

0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:17.280
<v Speaker 2>going out, people being sent out to try and get

0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:20.440
<v Speaker 2>there and just try and retrace the roots. And it

0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:24.280
<v Speaker 2>takes a few more days. It takes a couple of weeks. Actually,

0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I think it's not until Februy twenty sixth the tent

0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:30.240
<v Speaker 2>is found, so there would you back on the twelfth.

0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:32.920
<v Speaker 2>It's not until the twenty sixth that they find the tent,

0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:36.240
<v Speaker 2>and the tent is empty, no sign of the hikers,

0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:40.280
<v Speaker 2>So this is one of the unusual moments. There is

0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>some snow around the tent and on the tent, but

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:46.720
<v Speaker 2>it's not completely covered. In fact, one of the photos

0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:49.399
<v Speaker 2>clearly shows that one of the front tent poles is

0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:55.000
<v Speaker 2>still standing. And then they find the hiker's winter jacket,

0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:58.879
<v Speaker 2>the outer layer jacket, and most of their boots in sorry,

0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:02.400
<v Speaker 2>all of their boots the tent, which is highly unusual.

0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>And you know, anyone who's been in these conditions and

0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I can say this, you realize very very quickly. You

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:12.600
<v Speaker 2>keep your full body covered up. You feel the pain

0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:16.000
<v Speaker 2>within minutes of the chill getting to you, so you

0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:21.920
<v Speaker 2>don't leave those things lightly. That's highly unusual. And then

0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.080
<v Speaker 2>also there's a debate that there's a cut in the tent.

0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:29.320
<v Speaker 2>It looks like and it's suggested by the case reports

0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 2>at the time that they cut their way out of

0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:36.600
<v Speaker 2>the tent. Now that's important that fact is now debated,

0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:40.639
<v Speaker 2>and I speak to someone in the film to go

0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:43.560
<v Speaker 2>into this moment for a bit. I speak to a

0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:46.679
<v Speaker 2>Russian forensic expert who studied the case files, and she

0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:50.920
<v Speaker 2>makes a point that they only measure, They only photographed

0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:53.840
<v Speaker 2>and tested the area of the fabric in the center

0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.040
<v Speaker 2>of the cut, not where the cut pierced the tent.

0:25:57.520 --> 0:25:59.920
<v Speaker 2>So that makes a difference because when the blade goes in,

0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:02.320
<v Speaker 2>it pushes the fabrics one way, but then if you

0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:05.400
<v Speaker 2>drag the blade out, it pulls the fabric the other way,

0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:10.280
<v Speaker 2>and so you can't tell which way the blade went

0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:12.879
<v Speaker 2>in unless you see the start of the cut of

0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:16.879
<v Speaker 2>the tent, and that wasn't documented or photographed. So the

0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:19.320
<v Speaker 2>idea that they cut their way out of the tent

0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.159
<v Speaker 2>is not fact. It could have been cut from the.

0:26:22.160 --> 0:26:24.960
<v Speaker 1>Outside, and I was wondering, you know, when you were talking,

0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:27.800
<v Speaker 1>I was just thinking of this year, number of sails

0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:32.600
<v Speaker 1>and like ship sails and flags that I've seen ripped

0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:36.119
<v Speaker 1>just from wind. I wondered if that was going to

0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:38.960
<v Speaker 1>be an option too, that because of just the horrible

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:41.680
<v Speaker 1>conditions that there had maybe been like a little hole

0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:43.840
<v Speaker 1>and it just got ripped apart, and it wasn't even

0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:46.480
<v Speaker 1>somebody doing it, it was just the conditions.

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.159
<v Speaker 2>I think they were all confident that the cut was

0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:51.080
<v Speaker 2>too much of a straight line, and it was it

0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:53.159
<v Speaker 2>was cut by a blade, So I think the confident

0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:55.080
<v Speaker 2>was cut by a blade. But whether or not it

0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:57.800
<v Speaker 2>was cut from the inside or the outside, we no

0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:00.359
<v Speaker 2>longer have that evidence. We can't tell because they didn't

0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:02.960
<v Speaker 2>keep the tent. The tent's been disposed of, and the

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.040
<v Speaker 2>insert point for the blade wasn't documented.

0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:09.600
<v Speaker 1>What difference does that make, do you think as far

0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:11.480
<v Speaker 1>as these theories go, whether it was cut from the

0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:13.480
<v Speaker 1>inside or the outside, well.

0:27:13.320 --> 0:27:16.280
<v Speaker 2>Come to a little bit later on whether or not

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:20.199
<v Speaker 2>people were involved, whether or not weapons were involved, and

0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:21.080
<v Speaker 2>that makes a difference.

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:24.199
<v Speaker 1>I think. Okay, tell me what they find inside the

0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:26.480
<v Speaker 1>tent when they go in, because it feels a little

0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Pompeii to me, it's like moment frozen in time.

0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So they would store their jackets and their boots

0:27:32.200 --> 0:27:35.600
<v Speaker 2>near the front of the tent, the exit point, and

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:39.520
<v Speaker 2>that's where they found them, lined up dishes from things

0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:41.920
<v Speaker 2>that had been eating, and stuff were still laid out.

0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:44.639
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the tent looked like it would look like

0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:47.199
<v Speaker 2>if you were just you know, making the best of

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.040
<v Speaker 2>a cold evening and just trying to get through the night.

0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:54.080
<v Speaker 2>So they left in a hurry, no doubt. To me,

0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:57.680
<v Speaker 2>one of the most unexplainable things is why you wouldn't

0:27:57.680 --> 0:28:02.320
<v Speaker 2>grab your jacket and your boots. Again, I can't stress

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:04.920
<v Speaker 2>enough that when the temperature drops and the wind hits

0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 2>like that, you feel that temperature biting against your skin,

0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:11.879
<v Speaker 2>and so you would grab those things because they would

0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 2>have no doubt that they're not going to survive for

0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:17.959
<v Speaker 2>very long without those items. So something made them not

0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:18.760
<v Speaker 2>to grab them.

0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:21.919
<v Speaker 1>Well, and I was wondering, and probably I just skip

0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:24.119
<v Speaker 1>ahead too much, But as you talk, I start thinking

0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:27.800
<v Speaker 1>about is this what happens that phenomenon with hypothermia where

0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:29.440
<v Speaker 1>you feel like if you take your clothes off, you'll

0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:32.240
<v Speaker 1>get warmer for whatever reason. Is that part of one

0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:33.000
<v Speaker 1>of those theories.

0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:35.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's one of the theories. So the theories is

0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:39.200
<v Speaker 2>if you start to completely suffer from hypothermia, you feel

0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:41.720
<v Speaker 2>your body feels warm, feel hot, you start to take

0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 2>off all your clothes and you throw them off and

0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:47.840
<v Speaker 2>you run out. Hypothermia doesn't work like that to nine

0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:52.040
<v Speaker 2>different people instantaneously. If one person would have started to

0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:54.720
<v Speaker 2>feel it, they might have started to have these crazy actions.

0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:56.880
<v Speaker 2>The others would have stopped them and told them to

0:28:56.880 --> 0:28:59.000
<v Speaker 2>put their clothes on, and then they would have all

0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:02.640
<v Speaker 2>started to put on their pets and clothes. It doesn't happen.

0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:04.840
<v Speaker 2>It's not an instant switch and they all get it.

0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:06.360
<v Speaker 2>They all rip off their clothes and run out of

0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:08.760
<v Speaker 2>the tent. That's not how that works. So, you know,

0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 2>if it was one person, it's very feasible, but nine

0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:14.600
<v Speaker 2>people then that doesn't make any sense.

0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Is there the theory that they were cooking something inside

0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:20.600
<v Speaker 1>the tent and something you know, smoke went out of

0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:23.400
<v Speaker 1>control and they cut from the inside to let the

0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:24.680
<v Speaker 1>smoke out again.

0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:27.000
<v Speaker 2>That's been definitely been a theory. It's been discussed There

0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:30.600
<v Speaker 2>wasn't any evidence of any burning to the tent, so

0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:32.680
<v Speaker 2>it didn't catch fire anywhere to the tent. There's no

0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:36.600
<v Speaker 2>evidence of that. Could some gases or smoke, you know,

0:29:37.720 --> 0:29:41.640
<v Speaker 2>cause them to get out, I mean that's possible that

0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:44.760
<v Speaker 2>that can happen, But why rip the tent when you

0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:46.680
<v Speaker 2>can just go out the front door? I mean it's

0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:50.720
<v Speaker 2>they use light not and maybe one of them could

0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:52.720
<v Speaker 2>have ripped the tent and gone out from one side,

0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:54.440
<v Speaker 2>but the others would have went out the front door,

0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:57.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's and then they would have grabbed their clothes.

0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I keep coming back to this. Unless they were completely

0:30:02.760 --> 0:30:08.240
<v Speaker 2>insane from some chemical thing, then, unless they were out

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:11.160
<v Speaker 2>of their credible minds, they would have grabbed their boots

0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:14.640
<v Speaker 2>in their jackets. So something was stopping them from grabbing

0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:16.920
<v Speaker 2>those things. And I don't think, you know, there isn't

0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:21.320
<v Speaker 2>proof that. Again, a carbon monoxide or something like that

0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:26.360
<v Speaker 2>could force nine people to instantaneously go completely insane and

0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:29.680
<v Speaker 2>make decisions that will kill them all. That's not how

0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:32.560
<v Speaker 2>that works. Again, it could happen to one person, but

0:30:32.920 --> 0:30:35.440
<v Speaker 2>nine people all at the same time. It doesn't work

0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:35.840
<v Speaker 2>that way.

0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's take care of the carbon monoxide theory part

0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:41.440
<v Speaker 1>of it, because they when they do end up discovering

0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:43.560
<v Speaker 1>the bodies, they do all the chemical testing right, and

0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.440
<v Speaker 1>carbon monoxide doesn't show up in anyone because it sticks

0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:47.400
<v Speaker 1>around a long time.

0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there wasn't The autopsy reports, at times somewhat details,

0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:58.280
<v Speaker 2>other times not that detailed. There were certainly somethings missing.

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I did have a retired county foreign enough for the

0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Marin County in California, looked at these autopsy reports and

0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:12.600
<v Speaker 2>read through them and gave me his kind of take

0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:15.560
<v Speaker 2>on this. And I told him nothing about my research

0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:17.640
<v Speaker 2>to this point. This is just his honors take on them.

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:20.920
<v Speaker 2>And he said there were definitely errors and there wasn't

0:31:21.040 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 2>really any information talking about any toxicology. There was no

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:29.680
<v Speaker 2>chemicals mentioned. But he also wasn't clear if it was

0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent tested.

0:31:30.720 --> 0:31:34.040
<v Speaker 1>For Oh wow, okay, Now, did you think that the

0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:37.880
<v Speaker 1>way they exited the evidence that they could see in

0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:40.840
<v Speaker 1>the snow, did that seem unusual? The way they were

0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:43.400
<v Speaker 1>Were they running like they were scared of something or

0:31:43.440 --> 0:31:44.400
<v Speaker 1>what was that?

0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Right? So, this is the thing that all of these

0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:50.680
<v Speaker 2>theories before that we talked about would explain that they

0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:54.040
<v Speaker 2>were panicked they were in terror. They were running. They

0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:56.920
<v Speaker 2>ran out this tent. Something really scared them. They had

0:31:56.920 --> 0:32:00.680
<v Speaker 2>to go right away. They do find a small section

0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:05.520
<v Speaker 2>of their footprints walking down the hill side by side,

0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:09.520
<v Speaker 2>at a pace that suggests they were kind of kind

0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:14.040
<v Speaker 2>of arm in arm, keeping themselves together, walking quite calmly

0:32:14.400 --> 0:32:17.520
<v Speaker 2>down the hill. They weren't running, they weren't scattering in

0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:20.680
<v Speaker 2>different directions, is what would happen in a real panic event.

0:32:21.400 --> 0:32:26.000
<v Speaker 2>They kept themselves together, and they walked somewhat as far

0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:29.760
<v Speaker 2>as the footprints can tell us down the hill calmly,

0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:35.560
<v Speaker 2>which is incredible. So I've now just said something forced

0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:38.800
<v Speaker 2>them to make a horrendous decision to leave their boots

0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:41.440
<v Speaker 2>in their clothes and they go out to jackets, and

0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:45.280
<v Speaker 2>then they somewhat calmly walked arm in arm down the hill.

0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Now we only have this information of their footsteps for

0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:52.960
<v Speaker 2>a small section, and it's this weird geological anomaly where

0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:55.880
<v Speaker 2>all of the area around the tent you cannot see

0:32:56.240 --> 0:32:59.200
<v Speaker 2>any footprints. It was all blown over by snows. There

0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:02.840
<v Speaker 2>was no evidence where those footprints were. Somewhat further down

0:33:02.840 --> 0:33:07.040
<v Speaker 2>the hill one hundred feet or so, they found this

0:33:07.840 --> 0:33:11.720
<v Speaker 2>trace of a few meters of their footprints, and it's

0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>just because in this section the snow was wind blown over.

0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:18.960
<v Speaker 2>So what happened is their feet because they didn't have

0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 2>boots on, pressed deep into the snow, compacting the snow

0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:26.480
<v Speaker 2>down to form these kind of ice footprints that got

0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:29.920
<v Speaker 2>compacted and pressed down. Now, when the wind blew the

0:33:29.960 --> 0:33:33.640
<v Speaker 2>top layer of snow over, it actually left these footprints,

0:33:33.680 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>not as indentations, but as columns that were actually sticking

0:33:37.000 --> 0:33:40.240
<v Speaker 2>up out of the snow. So that's how they found them.

0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:42.840
<v Speaker 2>And it only happened is one unique area where the

0:33:42.880 --> 0:33:45.480
<v Speaker 2>wind must have funneled through and caused this thing to happen.

0:33:45.760 --> 0:33:48.160
<v Speaker 2>So we have a small section of their footprints as

0:33:48.160 --> 0:33:53.200
<v Speaker 2>evidence there was It only showed the hiker's footprints. There

0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:56.720
<v Speaker 2>weren't footprints of anyone else that was there along with them,

0:33:56.760 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 2>So that's somewhat in onant. But yeah, we know which

0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:02.520
<v Speaker 2>actually we're heading, and we know they walk down together

0:34:03.240 --> 0:34:05.120
<v Speaker 2>in a controlled fashion and say that.

0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:07.160
<v Speaker 1>So I'm picturing Is it all nine of them in

0:34:07.200 --> 0:34:09.759
<v Speaker 1>a line next to each other, linking.

0:34:09.560 --> 0:34:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Arms, Yeah, shoulder to shoulder. There's some debate as to

0:34:14.880 --> 0:34:18.239
<v Speaker 2>whether or not it was the full nine set or

0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:23.839
<v Speaker 2>only eight set of prints, but towards the edges it

0:34:24.040 --> 0:34:26.279
<v Speaker 2>blurred a little bit and it's harder to tell whether

0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:28.200
<v Speaker 2>or not there was more or not, just because of

0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:32.400
<v Speaker 2>the way the wind went. So we can somewhat assume

0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 2>all nine of them were found laid down the hill.

0:34:36.000 --> 0:34:38.960
<v Speaker 2>We can somewhat assume that nine of them went down together,

0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:41.920
<v Speaker 2>but there is an anomaly that potentially one might not

0:34:42.000 --> 0:34:44.600
<v Speaker 2>have been there. I don't look too much into that myself,

0:34:44.640 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 2>but because of other information. But yeah, at least eight

0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:50.440
<v Speaker 2>of them walk down the hill together.

0:34:50.920 --> 0:34:53.279
<v Speaker 1>Okay, what do we know happens after that? They are

0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:55.439
<v Speaker 1>linked arms, and they're going down the hill and they're

0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:59.880
<v Speaker 1>not wearing their jackets or their boots, inexplicably dressed, you know,

0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:02.760
<v Speaker 1>essentially to walk out and die at some point they

0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:04.920
<v Speaker 1>have to know, unless they're assuming they can scramble back

0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:07.520
<v Speaker 1>up and get back to the tent. There's no evidence

0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:10.839
<v Speaker 1>of an avalanche or anything hitting the tent. Is that right?

0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:12.200
<v Speaker 1>It's not totally buried.

0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So according to the autopsy reports and all of

0:35:17.200 --> 0:35:20.480
<v Speaker 2>the case file reports, there's no evidence of an avalanche

0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:22.520
<v Speaker 2>wrot together. There's a little bit of snow over the tent,

0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:25.040
<v Speaker 2>but one part of the tent pole is still standing.

0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:29.480
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, there's not a sign of an avalanche, and

0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:31.720
<v Speaker 2>it's not a steep enough hill to have a fall.

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:34.960
<v Speaker 2>When you see there's big signs of massive mountainous avalanches

0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:38.600
<v Speaker 2>that wouldn't exist there. There isn't that. We will come

0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:41.480
<v Speaker 2>back to the idea of a slab avalanche in a moment,

0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 2>but I'll come back to that in a moment. So, yeah,

0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:46.319
<v Speaker 2>the hikers they go down the hill and it's not

0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:50.880
<v Speaker 2>until the as I said, the twenty sixth of February,

0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:54.240
<v Speaker 2>they found the tent. Officially found the tent. There's actually

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>a clue that it might have been found earlier, and

0:35:56.000 --> 0:36:01.200
<v Speaker 2>come back to that. But the the following day they

0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:06.360
<v Speaker 2>found the bodies of the first four hikers, including Ego

0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:10.920
<v Speaker 2>the outlaw. Two were initially found by a cedar tree,

0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:15.239
<v Speaker 2>and that's kind of considered like the point where they

0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:19.320
<v Speaker 2>must have all reached. Now, this is important. The cedar

0:36:19.360 --> 0:36:22.960
<v Speaker 2>tree where the first two bodies were found was pretty

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:26.719
<v Speaker 2>much a mile down the hill from the tent. This

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:30.160
<v Speaker 2>is very important because a mile in those conditions, well

0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:33.839
<v Speaker 2>a mile in good snowy conditions would take about an

0:36:33.840 --> 0:36:36.759
<v Speaker 2>hour to walk They even say in their own in

0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:40.080
<v Speaker 2>their own diaries that they're working walking about one mile

0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:46.359
<v Speaker 2>an hour in heavy snow, So the fact that they'd

0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:48.719
<v Speaker 2>be walking slower and it's difficult. I think it could

0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:50.359
<v Speaker 2>have even taken a little bit longer than an hour

0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:52.439
<v Speaker 2>to get down the hill, but at least an hour.

0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:57.040
<v Speaker 2>So two bodies are found by the cedar tree, and

0:36:57.080 --> 0:36:59.400
<v Speaker 2>then a little bit later that day the bodies of

0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Xena Comogorova. She was found heading away from the cedar tree,

0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:08.560
<v Speaker 2>heading back towards the direction of the tent, and then

0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:12.640
<v Speaker 2>a little further beyond that was Eagle Diatlot, also heading

0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:15.520
<v Speaker 2>away from the tree and back towards the tent. So

0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:19.160
<v Speaker 2>it looks like they moved down to the cedar tree,

0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:22.400
<v Speaker 2>some of them stayed there, and then some began to

0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:27.759
<v Speaker 2>try and walk back to the tent. So now we've

0:37:27.760 --> 0:37:29.359
<v Speaker 2>got this question of why did they leave the tent

0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and why do they now feel it was safe to

0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:33.600
<v Speaker 2>go back to the tent. Around the cedar tree area,

0:37:33.640 --> 0:37:36.440
<v Speaker 2>there was some indication that they had built a fire,

0:37:36.719 --> 0:37:38.920
<v Speaker 2>so they were trying to keep themselves warm with a fire.

0:37:39.280 --> 0:37:41.320
<v Speaker 2>And actually the two of the members that were found

0:37:41.880 --> 0:37:45.360
<v Speaker 2>around this area did have some burnmarks on their body

0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:49.600
<v Speaker 2>and on their clothes. So yeah, we're not sure what

0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.440
<v Speaker 2>to make of that. Was that accidental given the condition

0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:55.960
<v Speaker 2>they were in and hypothermia now absolutely setting in. Did

0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:58.520
<v Speaker 2>they just accidentally burn themselves or was it something else?

0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:02.320
<v Speaker 1>And they were all wearing clothing at this point, nobody

0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:03.480
<v Speaker 1>had taken off more clothing.

0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:06.839
<v Speaker 2>No, so they hadn't taken off more clothing. What had

0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:09.600
<v Speaker 2>happened was they were still wearing their sort of inner

0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:12.640
<v Speaker 2>layer clothing, the clothing that they'd be wearing inside the

0:38:12.680 --> 0:38:15.520
<v Speaker 2>tent at night on a normal evening at night. So

0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:19.600
<v Speaker 2>what also says that they were relatively comfortable in this

0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:21.920
<v Speaker 2>tent even in those conditions, because they weren't wearing their

0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:25.600
<v Speaker 2>jackets inside the tent. The tent, the jackets were folded up,

0:38:25.640 --> 0:38:27.200
<v Speaker 2>some of them were in their bags, some of them

0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:30.000
<v Speaker 2>folded up where they would normally be. So so they

0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:33.719
<v Speaker 2>were comfortable enough in the tent before whatever happened to them,

0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.440
<v Speaker 2>and they were still just in their regular sort of

0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:40.640
<v Speaker 2>inner clothes. Some of them had light jackets, and I

0:38:40.640 --> 0:38:45.280
<v Speaker 2>believe Eago Diatlov and Xena Cormogroover were both slightly better

0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:49.680
<v Speaker 2>dressed than the others. So maybe a light jacket, not

0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:52.880
<v Speaker 2>their outer layer jacket, but a lighter inner jacket maybe,

0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:56.400
<v Speaker 2>which is why perhaps they decided they might be able

0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:58.839
<v Speaker 2>to make it back to the tent. And these were

0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:02.080
<v Speaker 2>just the clothes that they would have kept on inside

0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:02.399
<v Speaker 2>the tent.

0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:05.040
<v Speaker 1>So we've talked about four of the nine, is right,

0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:07.680
<v Speaker 1>two by the cedar tree and two trying to come back.

0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:11.360
<v Speaker 1>What were the injuries on them when they were discovered?

0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:13.719
<v Speaker 1>And it must be a nightmare to figure out what

0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:18.440
<v Speaker 1>was caused by the cold or whatever post warnem versus

0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:19.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, before they died.

0:39:20.000 --> 0:39:22.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this is an interesting thing. So the next

0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:27.040
<v Speaker 2>group of hikers have the most extraordinary injuries. They were

0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:30.719
<v Speaker 2>found quite a bit later on, actually, But this group

0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:34.200
<v Speaker 2>of hikers had injuries on them, but most of them

0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:37.440
<v Speaker 2>not catastrophic injuries, not injuries that in themselves would have

0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:41.400
<v Speaker 2>caused death. But they had injuries that included things like

0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:45.319
<v Speaker 2>in fact, almost all of them to a point, had

0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:49.360
<v Speaker 2>injuries to their knuckles and to the outside of their hands.

0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:53.320
<v Speaker 2>They had injuries to the face and around the lips

0:39:53.400 --> 0:39:56.360
<v Speaker 2>and the eyes, all consistent. And again when I spoke

0:39:56.400 --> 0:39:58.960
<v Speaker 2>to the experts that I spoke to in my film. Also,

0:39:59.320 --> 0:40:02.160
<v Speaker 2>these in trees are quite consistent with people that were

0:40:02.200 --> 0:40:04.759
<v Speaker 2>in a punch up. They were in a fight, a

0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:12.120
<v Speaker 2>physical violence, and this consistently came back that it's possible

0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.319
<v Speaker 2>that they could have gotten these injuries from falling over

0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:17.360
<v Speaker 2>and hitting themselves, but on the back of the hands

0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:19.839
<v Speaker 2>and on the knuckles is highly unlikely. When you fall over,

0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:23.879
<v Speaker 2>you put your palms down, And it was consistent. These

0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:28.840
<v Speaker 2>injuries were found across all of them. Now on one chap,

0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:34.319
<v Speaker 2>Yuri Durushenka was found in the middle and sorry I

0:40:34.360 --> 0:40:37.759
<v Speaker 2>said four those four that I mentioned were found, there

0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:39.600
<v Speaker 2>was actually a fifth that was found as part of

0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:42.320
<v Speaker 2>this group. Now this is Juri Dorushenka. He was found

0:40:42.640 --> 0:40:45.600
<v Speaker 2>again heading towards back to the tent. I think he

0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:48.360
<v Speaker 2>was found later that day or he was found slightly

0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:51.120
<v Speaker 2>separate from the others in the chronology. That's why I

0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:54.520
<v Speaker 2>separated him. But he was found heading back towards the tent.

0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:59.200
<v Speaker 2>He's an important character in the evidence because he had

0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:03.520
<v Speaker 2>a large or a massive impact to the side of

0:41:03.520 --> 0:41:06.880
<v Speaker 2>his head, to the temple of his head that the

0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:10.319
<v Speaker 2>coroner that I spoke to, the California coroner said this

0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:15.800
<v Speaker 2>impact would have probably rendered him unconscious in that position,

0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:19.919
<v Speaker 2>like he suffered that injury at that location and would

0:41:19.960 --> 0:41:23.960
<v Speaker 2>have been rendered unconscious there. At most he may have

0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:28.359
<v Speaker 2>staggered a few feet and then fell over. So what

0:41:28.400 --> 0:41:30.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying is this is in the middle of the hill.

0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:32.959
<v Speaker 2>It's not at the bottom of the seat of the tree,

0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:35.239
<v Speaker 2>and it's not at the top where the tent was.

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.800
<v Speaker 2>It's somewhere closer to the middle. So half an hour's

0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:42.800
<v Speaker 2>walk in any direction to these two locations, and yet inexplicably,

0:41:42.960 --> 0:41:46.120
<v Speaker 2>with no one else around, he suffers a massive impact

0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:49.680
<v Speaker 2>to hit the temple of his head that essentially kills him.

0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:53.279
<v Speaker 2>Now he is the most important piece of evidence in

0:41:53.320 --> 0:41:56.440
<v Speaker 2>my mind as to what happened to everyone else, because

0:41:57.000 --> 0:42:01.520
<v Speaker 2>other elements can be explained potentially, but nothing would explain

0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:03.440
<v Speaker 2>how this chap got this injury to the side of

0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:05.839
<v Speaker 2>his head on the middle of a hill where there

0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:09.200
<v Speaker 2>is no avalanche, there are no pits to fall in thereon,

0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:11.560
<v Speaker 2>there's no reason to have this injury.

0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Come back next week to listen to the second half

0:42:15.040 --> 0:42:29.920
<v Speaker 1>of this interview. If you love historical true crime stories,

0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:32.760
<v Speaker 1>check out the audio versions of my books The Sinners

0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:35.560
<v Speaker 1>All Bow the Ghost Club, All that is Wicked and

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0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:58.040
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0:42:58.280 --> 0:43:02.680
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