WEBVTT - The Jussie Smollett Incident 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:06.760 You're listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts. Folks. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:08.000 It's a hug. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:14.600 No I haven't seen when us have a lot to 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:22.439 see this last Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.480 lies we wish were true and truths that sound like lies. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.960 I'm the ghost of Danishchwartz. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.319 And I'm the evil twin of Lizzy Logan. Welcome to 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.120 the show, Dana. It's our last hoax of season one. 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.639 It's our last Hoax. I'm very excited. You've been teasing 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.080 a very long episode via text, A long episode, a 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:48.000 juicy and that is an easter egg episode. And I 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.920 also just wanted to give us time to like talk 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.840 about what the season has meant to us, talk about 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.160 what we've learned, say thank you to the fans, and 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.000 we're going to keep been every tangent and every digression 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.759 in the whole episode. I love it so yes, buckle up, 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:12.880 buckle long episode. How do you feel about season one 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:13.400 of Hoax? 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.319 I have had a blast researching hoaxes. I think what 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:23.040 I've been most dazzled by is the joy of like 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:29.200 nineteenth and eighteenth century court cases, because over ridiculous things 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.440 like I'll tell you these hoaxes that are seemed like 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:33.319 so silly, and then I'm like, and it was a 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.399 court case that lasted months. Yes, yes, yes, So that 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.000 was very fun for me to dive into these hoaxes. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.319 And I also think the main thing I learned is 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:45.720 that even at the time, people didn't always believe them totally. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.640 And I'm like, there are people today who fully believe 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:50.200 very dumb things. 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:55.160 Oh yeah, people have not gotten significantly more or less 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:56.520 like trickable. 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:01.240 Yeah. I passed a scientology poster on the way. Oh boy, 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:02.800 I'm just I'm getting political. 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:05.880 No, I was about to say, just a boy scientology. 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.600 Yeah, but I just mean I think that's part of 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.960 the fun of researching hoaxes is realizing that, like the 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.480 press coverage they got back then was also because it's 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.520 fun to cover hoaxes the same way today people love 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.000 covering scammers. And that doesn't mean just because we all 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.680 wrote about Annadelvi or read about Annadelvi, doesn't mean everyone 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:27.720 would have fallen for it. 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:32.560 Yes, and I've been impressed by the creativity that goes 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.600 into some of these hoaxes, like people really put a 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:39.880 lot of effort into them. Yeah. I've also been really 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:45.639 excited by and thankful for the reception that this podcast 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.079 has gotten. I mean, you obviously like had a lot 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:53.280 of built in goodwill and fans from Noble Blood. I 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.640 am much newer to the podcast game, so I just 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.000 want to say thank you everyone who has sort of 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:03.080 stuck by through me. I've had, like, you know, just 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.400 maybe some growing pains of me learning how to be 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.480 a pot You were a natural. Thank you. I think 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.240 I think I started like pretty strong, but just I 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.560 was not as practiced as you were. 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.240 That's this is a totally new animal. And I also 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.519 want to say for people who listen to Noble Blood, 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:25.280 thank you for trying something completely different. Yeah. 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.440 Absolutely, And people have so kindly written in with so 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:33.680 many suggestions for hoaxes we do, like have we have 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.800 noted them. We haven't really gotten to any have a 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.000 running list, but we have made a list of them, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.880 and people have very kindly written in with like small 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:47.480 corrections and you know, just suggestions of ways that we 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.600 can be more accurate with our word choices. 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.880 I'm really grateful when fans have sent photos they've like 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.480 visited sites that I can't get to. Someone sent a 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:03.360 photo she visited Anna Anderson's grave. I should have said you, 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:04.680 I should have shown you these photos. 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.160 Oh it's okay, and I will. 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.800 I just am very very grateful for the way people 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.880 are engaging with these stories. So thank you, thank you. Yes, 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.120 we will find a future for this podcast, so stick 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.840 with us, follow on Instagram, and we will tell you 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:19.560 exactly where that future is. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.680 Yes, and don't don't unsubscribe from this feed please. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.360 Yeah, it's nothing's going to happen. Don't worry. You're if 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:28.600 the next episode that comes up will be a hoax episode, 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.000 So just just chill up. 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:39.320 All right. Today's topic is Jesse Smollett, WHOA Okay. 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.719 Oh I cannot wait because this is a story truly 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:43.360 that I did not really engage with. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:44.040 Yeah. 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:45.800 I just kind of was like, I'm out. 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.640 Yeah. Similarly, I followed it for a little bit, and 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:55.720 then when it was revealed that there were major inconsistencies, 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.240 I had the reaction that I think a lot of 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.600 people had, which is like, this is not white people's business. 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:03.239 This is not my business. 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.240 Yeah, but you know, I am a pop culture writer 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.040 and we have a podcast about hoaxes. This is my business. 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.000 This is a major hoax. This is a major hoax. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:20.560 So trigger warning racism, homophobia, police brutality, descriptions of attacks 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:21.280 by strangers. 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.240 Those are good and important trigger warnings. 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:30.000 Also disclaimer. There's gonna be more disclaimers. Great, Like, we're 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.720 going to be doing a lot of table setting throughout 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.760 the episode. Yeah, we're going to go through it pretty slowly. 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.200 If you're someone who wants us to get to the point, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:39.880 we're not going to get to the point right away. 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.120 We're going to go through it quite slowly. 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:43.960 There's a lot of table setting to be done to 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:44.839 do this correctly. 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:49.640 Yeah. I wanted this to be the last episode that 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:55.640 I brought to the podcast because I wanted to be 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.200 the best podcaster I could be by the time we 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.880 got to it, Wow, Lizzie, because it's a complicated story. Yeah. 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.120 And I wanted us to be like in our hoax groove. 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:06.440 Yeah. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.400 And I also thought that it was an interesting sort 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:14.159 of bookend to the first topic that I brought to 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:18.000 this podcast, which was balloon Boy. Yes, so both were 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.920 modern media hoaxes where all of the participants are still alive. 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.479 They are both about people who had already been on TV. 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.440 The balloon Boy family, you might remember, was on wife'swap 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:36.480 reality TV and then were essentially like potentially using these 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.719 hoaxes just to get on TV more. They had a 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.280 lot of media coverage and then got called liars who 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.680 did it for publicity. In both cases, the people who 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:51.400 are involved still claim innocence okay. And in both instances 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.719 there was like minimal jail time served and the charges 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.240 were essentially dropped and it was basically trial by media. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.240 Yeah, it does seem like some times for these hoaxes, 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.440 except when the seventeenth Senten Day of the eighteenth century. 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:06.440 Most of the time people are like, well, what are 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.159 we going to put them on trial for? Right? 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:12.200 Obviously this is much more serious. Yeah, but the general 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:18.000 shape of it is actually quite similar. So speaking of seriousness, 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.360 Jesse to this day maintains his innocence okay. And so 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.760 if you're listening to this and you believe him, you 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.200 might be thinking, like, where do these two straight white 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.000 girls get off going on their mostly sort of light 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.520 hearted podcast and calling this gay black guy a liar 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.120 about a hate crime? So, like, you know, fair's fair 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.800 skip this episode. Yeah, his perspective will be taken into 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.280 account in this episode. We're going to give him his say. 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.880 I'll also say, listen, a lot of very smart people 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:55.280 think he's lying. And we're not saying that we don't 0:07:55.320 --> 0:08:00.720 believe hate crimes happen. We're saying this story is questionable. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.880 But if tomorrow it's proven beyond a shadow of a 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.120 doubt that it happened exactly how he said that it happened, 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:09.960 then I'm a jerk, Like I own that. Then I 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.560 then you know what canceled me, Lizzie, Like, that's just 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:13.920 on me. 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.400 I will also point out that because hay crimes are 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.880 real and legitimate, when people don't tell the truth about them, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.160 it muddies the water and makes things much harder and 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.800 messier for people who really do experience that violence. So 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:30.600 also just keep that in mind. 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:32.360 That's going to be a big thing. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:37.680 Yeah, that's something that makes me very frustrated people who 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.880 especially online now that this is a rel I actually 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.720 don't know much or anything about this case, but it 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.600 does make me very frustrated online when I see people 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.199 sort of like spinning a narrative of victimhood that isn't 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:57.120 accurate and smells fishy, because then it just muddies the 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.959 water and makes it harder for people with legitimate grievances 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:01.360 to find voice. 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.880 But my last two points of like why I think 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.720 this is sort of a legit topic for our podcast 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.560 are my big ones? Number One, Jesse's okay. Yeah, so 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.840 he got sober a few years ago. He's engaged, he's 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.280 making music, he was recently on a reality show. His 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.840 whole family supports him, Like, we're not kicking a man 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:28.160 who is down. Great, We're not like making content about 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.560 an incident that ruined his life. 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:35.199 Like he's good, sober, engaged, surrounded by loving family. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.480 He has a life. So this is this is a 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.240 man who's like out there and I don't know if 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.160 he's thriving, but he's certainly doing fine. Great And as 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.320 part of that, he's talking about this. He participated in 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.439 a documentary about it, He's given at least two podcast 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.320 interviews about it, and he knows that if he talks 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.439 about it, the media is going to talk about it. Yeah, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.960 like he brought it up, you know, he's giving the 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.320 media permission to talk about it. He knows how the 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.520 game is played, so like, this is not an incident 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.400 that he's too traumatized to talk about. And he knows 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.559 that if he talks about it. He's giving the media 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.640 permission to talk about it, and he knows that the 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.600 narrative is that it was a hoax. So we're covering 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:17.280 all sides of it. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:21.920 Sorry, Like I'm actually very excited to dive in. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:26.000 All right, So who is Jesse Smollett An actor? Yes, 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.480 he is one of six siblings born to a black 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.960 and Irish mother and a white Jewish father in the 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:33.719 Bay Area. 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.839 White Jewish father already common Grid and the Bay Area. 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.480 So he's technically like a quarter black. Okay, So I 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.240 would say that he is light skin black. Kind of 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.280 the way he looks is like if he told you 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.520 he was something else, you might believe him. He looks black. 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.720 Yes, I know I know this actor, and I know 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.200 his sister. I think was on Lovecraft Country and I 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.560 did watch that and love that book. Okay, yeah, yeah, 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:05.800 I don's a good looking guy. I don't know whether 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.360 I know him from like the media related to this 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.160 or to be honest, if I have seen anything he's 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:11.480 been in. 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:13.720 He was mostly just on Empire. 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:15.280 Yeah, I didn't watch Empire. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.479 The reason that I'm describing his skin color so specifically, 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.079 and I'm going to describe other people's skin color throughout 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.120 the episode is that I believe that it speaks to 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:30.600 like potential motivations and is relevant and him being perceived 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.000 as black is very important to him. Yeah, And like 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:38.400 claimed by the black community, the siblings are raised primarily 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.640 by their mother and they all get into acting as kids. 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.960 He has a small part in The Mighty Ducks, Oh, 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:50.320 the original, Yeah, first one. It's his second role. But 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.640 here I already want to go on a tangent because 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.440 that is sort of like touted is like his breakout, 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.800 but it's technically yeah, so it's technically his second role. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.640 His first role is in one of the most insane 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.640 made for TV movies I've ever come across. And I 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.680 just need to tell you about the first thing he 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:10.000 ever heard. 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.280 Okay, his first ever made for TV movie. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.960 So it's called a Little Piece of Heaven. It stars 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:20.880 Kirk Cameron and Chloris Leachman. Great, Okay. It's directed by 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:26.240 Mimi Letter, who directed Deep Impact, Wow, and the like 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.280 Ruth Bader Ginsberg movie on the basis of sex. Yeah, 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.760 but in nineteen ninety one she directed this made for 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.080 TV movie. And I'm just going to read you the 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:39.640 log line from IMDb. Okay, Will Loomis lives with his 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.280 mentally handicapped sister, Violet, who wants a younger child to 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.719 play with. So Will kidnaps one and then another from 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.840 the local children's home and tells them they're dead and 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:50.800 have gone to heaven. 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:52.240 Ah. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.120 Will and Violet try to make their farm a little 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.960 piece of heaven for the kids, while the authorities wonder 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.720 what has happened to the kidnap children? Oh my god, 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:03.920 is this based on a true story? No? 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.199 Wait, don't what if this was not based. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.400 On a true story? That is deranged? 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.960 Who are we supposed to be rooting for? I mean, 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.520 I have no like I would hope. What's crazy is 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:22.720 it's like these parents have kidnapped children, and these children 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:24.720 are being violently traumatized. 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.520 Well, it's the older brother who kidnaps children. Yeah, that's 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.720 pretty bad. And then at some point, like a judge 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.760 is like, you can't tell these kids that they're dead, 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.559 but you can, like, you can open up your farm 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:40.920 as like an orphanage. 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.680 They get permission to be around children after they can. 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.600 That's the same thing I've ever heard. It's like, but 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:48.680 I don't know. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.640 Lizzie, we have to do Okay, let's do a hoax 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.240 movie night. We'll do Anastasia. Yeah, and we'll do a 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:54.080 little piece of Heaven. 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:55.880 But I was like, you know what, what if this 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.199 is where Jesse learned that, like, reality is just whatever 0:13:58.240 --> 0:13:58.880 you want it to be. 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.240 Wow, Israel is he one of the kidnapped children? 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.000 Yeah, Okay, maybe he did. 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:04.800 Maybe he learned that. 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.320 I think he's the first kidnap child. And then the 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.960 little girl is like I wanted a little girl to 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.280 play with, not a little boy. It's the most insane thing. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.760 I'm like, I really can't even wrap my head around it. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.360 We need to watch this movie and report back. 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.080 It really just blew my mind when I read that. 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.120 All Right, So the family moves out to La and 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.240 all six siblings book a show together. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.720 Wow, because they're all a good looking, cute Yeah. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.480 And it's called on our Own and it's basically like 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.440 a very upbeat party of five. Great, but it's like 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.720 six siblings being raised by their older sibling. Yeah, And 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.880 the show ends and he stops acting for a little bit. 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.760 He went to high school, where he felt very out 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.800 of place. He attended mostly white schools, and he doesn't 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.120 go to college. I'm not sure like what he's up 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.160 to sort of during the years that he would have 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.000 been in college. But in twenty twelve he gets back 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:04.680 into acting. At this point, the rest of the siblings 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.320 have stopped acting, except for, as you pointed out, Journey, 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.400 who's his sister who has had a great career. 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.200 Yeah, she's great. I've seen her in things. 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.560 Yeah, she was on but she's had like a steady 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.600 career since being a little kid. Oh yeah, she was 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.480 on Cosby, she was on Friday Night Lights. You might 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:26.920 recognize her from eves By, You, Birds of Prey, love 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.480 Craft Country, And I'm gonna go on a little tangent here. 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.680 I have met Journey Smollett. Wow, she was lovely. She's 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:39.640 a very nice person. She's maybe the best looking human 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:40.760 I've ever met. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.800 Yeah, I can imagine that, like I've met. 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.240 Movie stars where I'm like, oh, you're such a good 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.640 looking human, Journey Smollett. I was like, oh, you're an angel. 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.520 Like little piece of heaven, little piece of heaven. 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.320 Like if I had to be with a woman, yeah, 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.560 like she glowed, I do wonder. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.600 I mean, yeah, she's just like a stunningly beautiful woman. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:09.360 When celebrities become famous, I think something they get some 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:13.479 skincare regimen that normal people aren't privy to because. 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:14.200 They get other water. 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.680 I think, yeah, okay, tangent, that's going to stay in. 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:18.120 Yeah. 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:22.040 I was eating lunch and someone walked into the restaurant, 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.680 and before I even identified it as a person, I 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.280 was like, Oh, their skin is glowing, their clothes look different, 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.480 like you just knew it was a movie star before 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.320 they walked in. And it was Connor's story. Yeah, and 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:36.920 he has not been famous that long. Yeah, And it 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:42.040 was astonishing, just like the truly like celebrity glow, even 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.160 before I recognized who it was. Skin, hair, their clothes 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.320 fit different. I want to know what they're doing. Different waters, 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:51.320 I think, accurate different water. 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:57.080 But also even because I've seen other celebrities, Journey was like, 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.600 she just was she's getting special water. Journey is getting 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.919 the most special She's bathing in the special water. Just 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.840 good for her anyway. But I also I'm just saying, like, man, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.720 can you imagine being like the second most famous person 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.040 in that family. Yeah, might be kind of rough, but whatever, 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.159 they're close or great. I don't know. 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.000 Sometimes I do think being siblings to a famous person 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:21.639 is great because you get a lot of the perks 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.199 without a lot of the downsides. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:25.639 Maybe I think Jesse wants to be famous. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:26.119 Yea. 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:32.000 In twenty fifteen, he books a small but main role 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.280 on a little show called Empire, big show. Do you 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:37.200 remember Empire? 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:38.160 Yeah? Huge too. 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:39.600 Do you remember what Empire was about? 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.959 A music dynasty family. It's like Succession but music. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:44.720 Yes, and it was on before Succession. 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:50.240 Yeah, so, uh, Succession is Empire for media. Yeah. 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.240 So it's King Lear with the record company. 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:53.359 Oh yeah, great catch. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:58.520 It's Lucius Lyon played by Terrence Howard is the head 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.960 of a record and he finds out that he's dying 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.880 I think of als and he has to figure out 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.680 which of his three sons to leave his record. 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.360 Label to gender swapped King Lair. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:17.359 Yes. And at the same time, his wife, Cookie played 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.680 by Traji p Henson just got out of prison. Fun 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.520 and she's coming for her piece. And it is a phenomenon. 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.280 It gets huge ratings in its first season. It's like 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.400 doing that thing where it gets bigger ratings every episode. 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.120 Yeah. Word of mouth. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.000 Yeah, I'm a little bit of a what is he 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.639 one of the kids, Yes, so he's the middle son. Okay, 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.359 I'm a bit of a TV history nerd, and I 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:45.120 was going to do a whole history lesson about black 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.080 television in twenty fifteen with like Seona Rhymes and Tyler Perry, 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.680 but it was not strictly relevant. 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.280 Interesting Now, we'll talk about that later, but. 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:56.439 I'll just put this in here as a little if 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.719 anyone else is a TV history nerd and is wondering 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:01.600 why there were a lot of black sitcoms in the 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.720 nineties and then there suddenly stopped being black sitcoms. Yeah, 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.480 A big part of it is because the WB and 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:12.520 UPN merged and became the CW, which wanted a white audience. 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:14.600 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.360 So all of it just to say in twenty fifteen, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:24.560 when Empire premiered, it was not the first show with 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:29.399 an all black cast to be like the show of 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.520 the moment, but it was still very very rare. Yeah, 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:37.640 And most of these sort of must see network shows 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.399 of the moment were like all white shows like Desperate Housewives, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.880 or they were these big ensemble shows like Gray's Anatomy 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:52.040 or Lost, which had diverse cast but the main characters 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.200 were like white people in a love triangle. 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.560 And even something like Scandal which does have a black 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:03.639 female lead, a big ensemble, and it's she's mostly interacting 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.399 with white people. Our love interest is a white person. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:11.960 It's a big, you know, diverse ensemble. I like, I 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.800 don't know if people would consider Scandal a black show. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.960 No, So again, like yeah, like How to Get Away 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.240 with Murder was sort of also riding that wave. An 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:30.199 empire broke through as unapologetically all black. Yeah, so it 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:35.640 was just very exciting. Jesse's dad dies the same day 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.640 the show premieres. Oh so, Jesse's dad had not really 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:41.640 been around during his childhood, but I think they had 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.840 reconnected during his adulthood. So he's dealing with overnight fame. 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:50.040 He's dealing with the loss of his dad. Jesse plays Jamal, 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:52.960 who is the middle son and who is. 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.680 Gay, and he is gay in real life, and. 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:01.160 The show creator Lee Daniels is also gay. Okay, So 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.120 even though Jamal starts as a small part, Lee Daniels 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.320 keeps putting more and more of his own experiences into 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.879 Jamal and sort of using him as an avatar to 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:12.439 like talk about gay rights. 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:13.040 Yeah. 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.880 So yeah, so Jesse's also gay when the show premiered, 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.920 he just doesn't talk about his private life. But three 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:24.240 months after the show premieres, he confirms to Ellen that 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:26.400 he's gay, which had already been speculated. 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:28.879 Oh coming out to Ellen what a moment. 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.159 So basically what he says is, I was never in 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.240 a closet. So he doesn't really come out. He just 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:39.080 sort of says, oh, I've never not like I well, 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.000 I was never dating a woman. Like I've never not. 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.240 I've never not been gay. I just haven't like talked 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:44.680 about it. 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:46.520 A bunch, yeah, because he doesn't want to be seen 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.639 as not embracing who he is or hiding himself. But 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.320 he just doesn't want it to be a story. 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.680 I I mean, as an actor, I find it very 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.879 interesting and legitimate the way that once Hollywood perceive someone 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:04.560 as gay, they are absolutely put into a box. I mean, 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.960 that was the whole thing with like people have speculated 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.080 that that's one of the reasons Matt Boehmer never got Superman, 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:13.639 even though he was considered a front runner and very 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:18.640 much looks like Superman. There's just a perception of actors 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:24.200 still to this day, of like a listers cannot be gay. Yep. 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:29.840 So I understand the sort of tight situation. Jesse, you 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.000 would have been in being like, well, I don't want 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:34.280 to not embrace who I am and be proud of myself, 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.040 but also I want to I want as much potential 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.040 for my career as possible, because Hollywood has these insane biases. 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:46.280 Yeah, and I mean there's even like even you know, 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:50.120 straight white actors who don't do a lot of press 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:54.440 will say the more the audience knows about your real life, 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.600 the less they see you as a character. And they 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:01.640 just don't want you to think of them as whoever 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:03.640 they are. They just want you to see them as 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:08.720 the characters that they play. But so he says, you know, 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:12.760 my family embraces me. They've known who I was since 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:14.439 I was a teenager. I just don't want to make 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:16.960 it a story. Yeah. At this point, this is what 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:20.080 Queen Latifah is also saying. And you know, we've since 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.280 known her to walk red carpets with her like female 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:29.000 life partner. Three months after that, we get the Supreme 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.639 Court decision that legalizes same sex marriage federally. 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.240 Wow, this is such a throwback. You're like, I cannot 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:35.800 believe that this was so recent. 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:40.400 Yeah. Yeah, so, like things are rapidly changing. So from 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:43.639 the time he booked the part to the time the 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:49.119 show premiered, to the time he's giving the interviews, the 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:53.080 cultural value of him being an out black gay man. 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.440 You can see him doing the math of this might 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.159 be a huge negative all the way to this potential 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.520 might be a huge positive. Like could there be a 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.439 whole community that is begging to embrace me? You know, 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:07.240 I don't know. 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:10.960 Yeah, it's like, is this historically this has been a negative? 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:14.080 Maybe this is the one moment where this might benefit me. 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:17.520 Right, And he's so he's embracing it. So he becomes 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:22.359 friends with like the activist Array McKesson his Twitter bio 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:27.480 best guy, Yes, from the Black Lives Matter movement. His 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:29.159 Twitter bio at the time, is I am here to 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:32.840 save the world. Great. Yeah, I mean that's also just 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:36.919 very actory. It's very actory, and like you just have 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:40.120 to really you're saying throwback, You just have to really 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:44.320 think back to like Obama's second term. Yeah, we really 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:46.159 thought television was going to save the world. 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:47.280 We really did. 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:50.000 Orange Just the New Black was going to fix prison. 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:52.680 And I the best of my knowledge, it did right. 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:56.640 Transparent was gonna fix transrtes YEA in the most sincere way. 0:24:57.520 --> 0:24:59.679 It was a very earnest. It was peak woke. We 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:02.720 were so lived out, we were fully lived out. We 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:04.040 really thought it was gonna work. 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:07.920 And so he goes from being this sort of quietly 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:11.000 queer brother of a successful working actress. 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:12.040 The future is female? 0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:16.960 Is the future was female? Just so you remember everyone 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:26.159 was a man bun. He goes for being the quietly 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:29.480 queer brother of a successful working actress to being potentially 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:33.959 like one of the faces of the new civil rights movement. Yeah, 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:35.399 he's got a record deal. 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:38.040 Is what sort of musician is he? 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:42.160 Uh, like, I don't know, John Legend two point zero. 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:43.760 Like, say, he's say a singer songwriter. 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:47.359 He's performing at the White House for the Obamas. 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:49.840 Oh so he's sort of lin Manuel mirandeing too. 0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:55.520 Yeah, like overnight, I can imagine he is under so 0:25:55.720 --> 0:26:01.560 much pressure and he's got again. I would imagine such 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:02.320 a huge ego. 0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:06.280 Oh of course, this is my Taian gent. When I 0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:10.560 worked at Entertainment Weekly, it was sort of anecdotally known 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:15.879 and very common. The actors who were the absolute worst 0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:19.840 to work with were brand new actors on a huge 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:24.399 hit show. Yeah, whereas career actors were like humble and 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:28.000 lovely and wonderful. Like Brian Cranston. You interviewed him up 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:30.880 Breaking Bad and he's like, yes, you're a professional. I'm 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:35.280 a professional. Here's my time. Let's sit down where imagine 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:40.199 the cast of a high school good singing club. I 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:44.400 was gonna say, Glee. The Glee kids, it's like they 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:47.000 go from zero to sixties so fast that they're just 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:50.080 like it was. The ego was very hard to get. 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:55.120 Every insecurity is blown. H Yeah, all right, we're gonna 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:58.560 make a hard left turn and talk about police brutality. Great. 0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:03.280 Yeah, did Glee address that police brutality? 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:04.640 No? 0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:07.040 Okay, well I guess that's why it's not solved. 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:11.160 Yeah, all right. Chicago a city, you. 0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:12.800 Know, a city I'm very familiar with. 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:15.720 Did you know that Chicago has more cops than the LAPD? 0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:18.080 No, but that makes sense. 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:20.560 I was surprised to find this out. Chicago has the 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:23.040 second biggest police force in the country after New York. 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:24.880 After New York, and then La is the third. 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:26.240 Well we're the second city. 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:31.280 Yeah, and I think it's because La is not as like, 0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:33.399 does this make sense? La is not as big as 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:36.880 La La? Yeah, LA is not very dense. Well, LA's 0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:41.280 not very dense and also like the LA area. Yeah, 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.640 like not everyone who works in LA lives in technically LA. 0:27:44.800 --> 0:27:47.359 Like again, this is a tangent, but whatever are we 0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.600 keeping it when we're recording this? It is only five 0:27:50.720 --> 0:27:55.600 days after the mayoral primary, and just anecdotally, I kept 0:27:55.600 --> 0:27:59.880 seeing online people talking about or like poll workers saying 0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:04.359 that there were Republicans in Beverly Hills do you know 0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:08.720 who were mad that they couldn't vote for They were like, hey, 0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:12.440 why isn't Spencer Pratt on the ballot? On my ballot? 0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:16.200 If you didn't know, is a Republican running for mayor 0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:20.000 of Los Angeles And they didn't realize that Beverly Hills 0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:22.000 is not technically in Los Angeles. 0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:25.080 Beverly Hills burbank West Hollywood's own city. 0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:31.680 Yeah, so okay, however you the listener feel about law 0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:36.240 enforcement in this country, the fact is that the Chicago 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:39.200 p D just does not have a good reputation, does 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:40.920 not have a good reputation. 0:28:42.920 --> 0:28:45.440 From Chicago. I'm from the suburbs of Chicago, but I 0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:47.880 can confirm that it does not have a good reputation. 0:28:48.440 --> 0:28:52.760 Like just even if we're just talking American police, like 0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:57.680 Chicago's not the shining star of the law enforcement. 0:28:57.760 --> 0:29:00.680 Its reputation is bad on both sides. It's like it's 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.240 bad where it's like they're not enforcing crime. It's really 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:05.920 dangerous in certain areas, and it's bad where it's like 0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.560 they are as the you know, perception goes very racist, 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:12.080 very violent, right. 0:29:12.040 --> 0:29:16.080 Like they're brutal and it doesn't even work. Let you 0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:20.200 know what I mean, Like they're brutal and Chicago's dangerous. 0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:23.560 So Chicago's a beautiful city. It's my favorite city in 0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:23.920 the country. 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:26.760 Yeah, Chicago also great. Chicago's really clean. 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:27.400 Yeah. 0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:30.120 I want to say that Charlally nice Empires sat in 0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:32.280 New York, but it was filmed primarily in Chicago. That's 0:29:32.280 --> 0:29:35.920 why we're talking about the In the years that we're 0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:39.040 going to talk about, Chicago's also going through little crime spike. 0:29:39.920 --> 0:29:41.600 Republicans love to talk about that. 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:45.000 Little crime spike. So I couldn't find an exact filming 0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:47.360 schedule for the first season of Empire, but I know 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:50.680 that they filmed the pilot in spring twenty fourteen, and 0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:54.080 then the pilot premiered in January twenty fifteen, So I'm 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:56.600 assuming that they filmed season one through the rest of 0:29:56.640 --> 0:29:57.360 twenty fourteen. 0:29:57.480 --> 0:29:58.600 Yeah, probably the fall. 0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:03.400 Yeah, so this is happening right when they're filming Season one. 0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:08.880 October twenty fourteen, a white Chicago police officer named Jason 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:11.280 Van Dyke shot and killed a seventeen year old black 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:15.160 boy named Lakwan McDonald. Dana, do you remember any of this? 0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:17.960 I remember like the story, but not the details. 0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:21.480 Okay, So I'm about to describe the event. So if 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:24.080 you don't want to hear about this, just fast forward 0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:29.880 like ninety seconds. It was nighttime. Laqwan had a small 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:33.840 knife and had been breaking into cars on the side 0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:36.480 of the road, so someone had called the cops, and 0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:39.640 there were other officers already on the scene, and he 0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:42.920 had slashed one of the police car tires, and the 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:46.080 other officers were waiting for someone with a taser to arrive. 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:47.960 They didn't all have tasers, so they were waiting for 0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:50.080 someone with a taser to arrive so that I assume 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:54.200 they could tase him. Laqwan and Officer Van Dyke and 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:56.720 his partner showed up, and Officer Vandyke gets out of 0:30:56.760 --> 0:31:02.000 his squad car and immediately just like opened fire on 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:06.560 this kid. Oh my god, and he shot him sixteen times. Yeah, 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:10.560 and Lakwan was alive when the paramedics arrived, but dead 0:31:10.600 --> 0:31:13.760 by the time they got to the hospital end of 0:31:13.920 --> 0:31:18.520 description of murder. So the police claimed that the shooting 0:31:18.560 --> 0:31:22.040 was in self defense, but the autopsy comes out and 0:31:22.040 --> 0:31:24.680 says it's not in self defense, and the city agrees 0:31:24.720 --> 0:31:29.160 to pay the McDonald family five million dollars. And then 0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:32.400 the dashcam footage comes out as the result of a 0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:35.720 journalist's Freedom of Information Act request and shows that it's 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:41.160 this like sort of brutal and very bizarre incident, and 0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:45.440 the city erupts in protests. And because you know, it's 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:48.040 it's not just the murder, it's the cover up. Yeah, 0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:50.600 because this has happened, it's taken over a year for 0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:53.280 the dash cam footage to come out, and the chant 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:57.959 is sixteen shots in a cover up. And Kim Fox, 0:31:58.360 --> 0:32:01.200 who is a black woman, uses this moment to get 0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:04.320 elected the first black States Attorney in Cook County history. 0:32:05.280 --> 0:32:07.680 So obviously, like for this podcast, I'm not going to 0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:11.040 get into the exact details of like police reforms, but 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.000 this is a very big deal. There's a Department of 0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:17.600 Justice investigation into the Chicago PD and the investigation finds 0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:21.840 that basically like the Chicago police use unreasonable and excessive force. 0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:25.920 They have a pattern of covering up their mistakes instead 0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:29.920 of having transparency and accountability, and they're like violating people's 0:32:29.920 --> 0:32:33.680 civil rights and it's unconstitutional. And this whole process is 0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:34.600 taking a few years. 0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:36.240 They're in order to. 0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:39.560 Undergo various reforms, including a consent decree, which I won't 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:41.760 get into, but I know that I a little bit 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:45.760 know what's from the from the TV show Elsbeth Good job. 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:48.600 And the reason that I'm talking about all of this 0:32:48.800 --> 0:32:53.880 is because the cops, just like even more than usual, 0:32:54.560 --> 0:33:00.280 look so bad years leading up to this incident a. 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:03.120 Real moment, especially for Chicago p D. 0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:08.360 Yes, Yeah, and like unlike other sort of oh there 0:33:08.480 --> 0:33:11.560 was a shooting and we look bad moments that can 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:16.600 happen in various major cities, this one has like real consequences, 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:20.920 Like the Department of Justice got involved, there were court 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:25.000 reforms as a result, Like this one kind of stuck. Yeah, 0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:28.680 you know, like the cops don't even look like evil geniuses. 0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:30.280 They sort of look like evil idiots. 0:33:30.480 --> 0:33:33.400 Yeah, and that is sometimes the scariest thing in these 0:33:33.680 --> 0:33:35.360 you know, you get the footage and you're just like 0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:38.479 they're not even acting rationally, but they're on logic. 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:42.080 Yeah, the mayor at the time, Robin Manuel, fires the 0:33:42.280 --> 0:33:45.479 white superintendent of police and replaces him with Eddie Johnson, 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:48.920 who is black. And you know, he doesn't say, like 0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:52.000 this is to stop the protest, but like there's sort 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:55.800 of a feeling that, oh, they just gave the job 0:33:55.960 --> 0:34:00.800 to a black guy to appease us. Sure, but you know, 0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:02.920 you can interpret that however you want. 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:06.920 Yeah, though, it's like whether the chief of police should 0:34:06.960 --> 0:34:08.879 be black is something that like I as a white 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:12.719 person with unfamiliar with, like intimate, like on a personal level, 0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:14.880 the history of police violence. I'm like, that's not for 0:34:14.960 --> 0:34:15.719 me to weigh in on. 0:34:16.040 --> 0:34:20.759 Right, Like activists have different reactions to that. Exactly that 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.560 does happen as a direct consequence of. 0:34:23.560 --> 0:34:26.960 This, yeah, And whether it was meant cynically or like 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:30.080 to genuinely try to make things better, that's who knows, 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:31.439 or a combination of both. 0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:36.520 January twenty nineteen, Officer Van Tyke, who originally had like 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:39.480 gotten away with it, had been a declared to justified shooting. 0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:44.479 He's he had been indicted. He's convicted of murder good 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:47.400 and sentenced to just under seven years in prison. Great 0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:52.759 and actual consequence, actual consequence. One week later, back to 0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:57.680 Jesse Smollett. Okay, things are not going so great if 0:34:57.680 --> 0:35:01.239 you're Jesse Smollett. Really not as good as they were 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:03.160 when we last checked in with him in twenty fifteen. 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:05.120 How long has it been now, it's been four years? 0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:07.040 Four years? Okay? How old is he? 0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:12.320 Just for context, thirty five okay, so thirties, four years 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:14.040 since Empire premiered. 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:18.759 Empire ratings are really far down, yeah, nose dive down. 0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:23.239 He has been getting online threats the way I think 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:28.120 like any outspoken gay Black Lives Matter advocate probably does. 0:35:28.560 --> 0:35:34.920 But he also recently received like a letter, like a 0:35:35.040 --> 0:35:42.080 sort of classic threat letter with like cutout magazine like letters. 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:45.160 That's so funny that these these people writing threats are 0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:48.280 that lazy, yeah, with like cliche. 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:51.400 A marker drawing of a guy with like a noose 0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:52.080 around his neck. 0:35:52.200 --> 0:35:56.400 Oh yeah, I mean, I have absolutely no doubt that 0:35:56.600 --> 0:35:59.720 his mentions at this time were horrific. 0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:02.840 Horrific, So you know, it's probably a rough. 0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:05.120 Time and it's not like, you know, he's on Empire, 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:07.720 but it doesn't seem I don't really have a memory 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:09.160 of this, but it doesn't seem like he's getting a 0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:10.400 ton of other gigs. 0:36:10.640 --> 0:36:14.480 No, he is not. Yeah he's not Dana. Yeah he's not. 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:16.160 Yeah. 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:20.360 He flies from la into Chicago and he lands around midnight, 0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:24.520 and his creative director, Frank Gatson. When you say his 0:36:24.719 --> 0:36:28.560 creative director, Dana, we're moving past it, right, His creative director, 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:30.960 Frank Gatson picks him up at the airport and drives 0:36:31.040 --> 0:36:33.320 him back to his condo in Streeterville. WHI, she's a 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:37.280 neighborhood in Chicago. Yes, there's no food in the apartment. 0:36:37.960 --> 0:36:41.239 So around two am, he goes out to the Walgreens, 0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:43.920 thinking that it's open all night, but it's not, so 0:36:44.000 --> 0:36:47.920 he goes another block to the subway sandwich. At this point, 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:51.080 it's January twenty ninth. I mean maybe it's like the 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:54.880 early hours of January thirty. Anyway, it's the end of January. 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:58.840 It's Chicago, it's cold. This is during a polar vortex. 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:03.279 It's like negative twine degrees. Yeah, but you know, there 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:06.239 are a couple other people at the subway sandwich. So 0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:09.759 later someone will be like, no one in their right 0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:12.360 mind would go out for food at this hour, but like, 0:37:12.400 --> 0:37:13.480 you know, some people do. 0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:16.200 Also, I'm like, I don't know, you're hungry. People would 0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:17.480 be like, what are you supposed to do for food? 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:19.960 Get delivery? That means someone else has to go outside. 0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:22.279 I actually don't think this is crazy. I mean, I 0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:25.080 think it's unpleasant, but sometimes you have to go out 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:26.359 for food, even when it's cold. 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:27.839 I don't know what to tell. Yeah, he goes out 0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:31.640 for food, but it is very, very cold out. While 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:34.960 he's in the subway sandwich, he texts his manager asking 0:37:35.120 --> 0:37:38.160 just like hey, like can we talk. He gets his food, 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:40.320 he steps out, his manager calls him, so he's on 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:42.920 the phone. He hears this. 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:44.360 Manager calls him at like two am. 0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:46.640 Yeah, well, I think his manager's in La where it's 0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:52.320 probably like midnight whatever. He hears some guys yelling at him, 0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:55.160 and he just ignores it and keeps walking. And then 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:58.840 they yell a little louder and they say, hey, Empire, 0:37:59.480 --> 0:38:03.280 are you the Empire? F slur and slur. 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:04.000 Yeah. 0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:07.160 So they've called him a horrible name for gay people 0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:09.919 and for black people. And he turns around and they say, 0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:10.600 and he says. 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:14.359 What is the race of the people harassing him? 0:38:14.400 --> 0:38:17.760 We'll get that, okay. In a sack, and he says, 0:38:17.760 --> 0:38:20.080 what did you say to me? And they go, this 0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:21.440 is Maga Country. 0:38:21.560 --> 0:38:24.040 Oh okay, I'm gonna guess who they are. 0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:27.920 He turns around and they start like punching him. 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:31.319 It's absolutely not Maga Country. Good point, by the way, 0:38:31.360 --> 0:38:32.840 I will say, it's Chicago. 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:33.759 Put a pin in that. 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:34.120 Yeah. 0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:35.839 They start punching him. 0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:36.560 Okay. 0:38:36.800 --> 0:38:39.480 He tries to fight back, but they you know, it's 0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:41.799 two on one. They beat him up and knock him down. 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:47.319 They're wearing ski masks so like balla clawas and all 0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:50.600 he can see is the skin around their eyes, so 0:38:50.640 --> 0:38:53.040 he can tell, like from their build and their voices 0:38:53.040 --> 0:38:55.520 that they're men, and he can tell from the skin 0:38:55.600 --> 0:38:59.120 that they're white. Okay, but that's all he knows. And 0:38:59.160 --> 0:39:03.640 then they just like leave. He goes home. He still 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:10.600 has his phone and his sandwich. Okay, he realizes that 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:14.040 there's a rope around his neck and a chemical on 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:21.480 his sweater. Let's pause and talk about this horrifying thing 0:39:21.560 --> 0:39:25.560 that has happened, and also some of the details that 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:27.360 are a little bit strange. 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:32.840 Yes, I will say that to me, what is strange 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:35.279 not even that he still has his sandwich and phone, 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:37.279 because it wasn't a robbery. It was a hate crime there, 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:40.320 beating him up for being the gay guy on Empire. 0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:44.920 What is slightly strange is okay, a few things to 0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:49.239 me just on the surface. Uh huh. The balaclavas in 0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:51.880 the middle of a polar vortex actually does not strike 0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:54.160 me as weird. No, I'm like, actually, people would be 0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:55.080 wearing face coverings. 0:39:55.120 --> 0:39:56.880 Also, if you're about to commit a hate crime, you 0:39:56.920 --> 0:39:57.680 might cover your face. 0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:02.280 But the obviously wouldn't have known that he was walking around. 0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:04.480 It seems like a crime of opportunity, seeing as he 0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:07.920 just arrived back in Chicago, and it doesn't seem if 0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:10.239 it is a crime of opportunity. The fact that they 0:40:10.239 --> 0:40:15.320 would have a noose and chemicals seems surprising. 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:19.320 Yeah, which will later be like discovered, Like the consensus 0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:19.600 is that. 0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:23.000 It's bleach, but even still, like why would where would 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:25.200 they be walking around Bleach at two of your warning 0:40:25.680 --> 0:40:28.760 if they just came across him. It's not Maga country, 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:31.280 So I'm like, why is why are maga people walking 0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:35.719 around Chica? But people are everywhere, So this is a 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:40.600 more cynical one, maybe because he's a bigger deal in 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.600 the maybe like the MAGA community had sort of made 0:40:43.680 --> 0:40:47.840 him a target. But it also strikes me as I 0:40:47.840 --> 0:40:49.840 did not watch Empire. I don't think I would have 0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:52.640 recognized him on site where I'm like, in the dark, 0:40:52.719 --> 0:40:56.680 in the dark, just walking around Chicago, identified which which 0:40:57.280 --> 0:41:00.800 sibling from Empire he was where I'm like, MAGA people 0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:02.520 probably weren't watching Empire. 0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:05.200 It just seems to seem like four years into its 0:41:05.280 --> 0:41:06.479 run when it was not that big vigal. 0:41:06.719 --> 0:41:09.080 That's why I'm like, I just don't think white non 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:12.680 fans of Empire would have recognized Jessie Smollett. 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:16.200 Yeah, seems like really quite the coincidence. 0:41:16.239 --> 0:41:19.640 But the only counterpoint to that, I would say is 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:21.960 maybe like in the MAGA community, you know how they 0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:25.160 sometimes have their like enemies. Yeah that I'm like, maybe 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:28.640 he was like really famous for being a Black Lives 0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:32.000 Matter like punching bag in the MAGA community, right, But 0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:34.520 I don't know if he was, I don't know. I 0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:37.879 don't think they would recognize him from watching Empire season four. 0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:43.160 I mean. The other thing is like, Okay, obviously racists 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:48.239 can live anywhere, yes, and hate crimes can happen in 0:41:48.360 --> 0:41:54.840 well to do areas Streeterville in particular, I like looked 0:41:55.000 --> 0:41:58.840 up where all this happened on a map. My mom, 0:42:00.440 --> 0:42:05.120 for work for a while, lived in Chicago. She lived 0:42:05.160 --> 0:42:07.560 like two blocks from where this happened. And I've stayed 0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:10.960 at her apartment. I've like walked by that subway sandwich shop. 0:42:11.560 --> 0:42:14.719 There is no like, no look up on a map 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:17.640 where this happens. I like to see, Oh, my grandpa 0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:20.799 used to live around there. I just it's like by 0:42:20.920 --> 0:42:25.920 Michigan Avenue, which is the main like shopping thoroughfare, where 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:27.879 like there's the Ralph Laurence Store and the. 0:42:28.440 --> 0:42:31.120 Very Mile if you know what that is. Yeah, if 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:37.120 you're like a skinhead looking for trouble, you don't go 0:42:37.320 --> 0:42:38.719 to this area. 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:44.480 Again, it's the most populous, like most touristy walk area. 0:42:44.280 --> 0:42:49.600 And it's like a rich area for like retires and yuppies. 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:54.600 Again, Chicago River. It's like the Langham Hotel, which is 0:42:54.600 --> 0:42:57.600 like a fancy hotel, and like an Apple store, like 0:42:58.040 --> 0:42:59.840 the fancy Apple store, the big one. 0:43:00.200 --> 0:43:05.719 Like there aren't bars, there aren't sporting places where you 0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:09.080 could find a lot of rowdy people. It would just 0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:13.480 be such a bizarre place to like hang out looking 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:17.680 for trouble, looking for trouble. Yeah, so sort of the 0:43:17.719 --> 0:43:20.640 only explanation that makes sense is that they were waiting 0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:24.319 specifically for him. Yeah, and like you said, like that 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:26.240 he was a target. 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:30.440 Because again, if you have a noos to, which is 0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:33.120 a you know, hate indicated indication of a hate crime 0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:36.000 against a black person, right, and Bleach ready to go 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:41.760 around where Jesse Smollett lives and they recognize him from Empire, 0:43:41.960 --> 0:43:46.040 a show that they wouldn't naturally have watched unless they 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:49.080 specifically hated this person. Yeah, it does seem like they 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:53.120 would have needed specifically to stalk and wait for him, 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:54.680 which is possible. Right. 0:43:55.200 --> 0:43:59.040 But then it's like, okay, so they they did this 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:02.360 thing and they punched them and then they ran away, 0:44:02.680 --> 0:44:05.400 Like I don't know. I mean, now I'm trying to 0:44:05.440 --> 0:44:09.320 parse the logic of like white supremacists who like don't 0:44:09.760 --> 0:44:13.080 really operate on like logic. They just like are fueled 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.520 by hate and I guess that'll keep you warm in 0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:17.799 the negative twenty degree weather. But like, how would they 0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:19.680 know he was getting back that night? 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:22.239 Like, and they can they decided to do their hate 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:25.480 crime during a polar of vortex, which is true commitment. 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:27.279 Which is true commitment, and like a little bit smart 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:28.520 because I guess there's not going to be a lot 0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:34.279 of witnesses, but like to what end, And it's just 0:44:35.080 --> 0:44:36.759 it just seems so unlikely. 0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:41.560 It's it's a challenging thing to believe, especially when you 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:44.480 know the context of Chicago. Like I think other people, 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.279 if you just said a hate crime happened at night 0:44:48.320 --> 0:44:50.920 in Chicago, you'd be like, yeah, that's plausible. Yeah, And 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:55.239 then the location and the details and the specificity of 0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:57.399 it leaves sort of. 0:44:57.320 --> 0:45:00.719 A sour taste in your mouth for you know. 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:05.520 I think that the strangeness of it is especially because 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:09.359 no one wants to question a hate crime happening. Right, 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:11.960 if someone tells you a hate crime happened against them 0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:14.280 for being gay and black, you want to of course 0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:18.120 always be like that is horrific. How can I support you? 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:22.560 Yeah, Like if he had just said, like, the craziest 0:45:22.600 --> 0:45:26.840 thing happened, these white guys bumped my shoulder and then 0:45:26.960 --> 0:45:29.319 we got into a fight and they punched me and 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:32.239 they called me the N word, I'd be like, yeah, 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:34.719 it sounds about it, Yeah, that sounds but right they 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:37.239 recognized me from my TV show and had props with them. 0:45:37.320 --> 0:45:39.479 I'd be like, all right, sounds like they had a plan, 0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:41.959 quite the plan, quite the plan. 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:45.319 Also, now knowing where it is, I'm like, at two 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:49.920 am in this area, it kind of only makes sense 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:52.799 that they would have much waiting there. Thank god he 0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:56.279 needed to get out to get food. Yeah, because this 0:45:56.400 --> 0:45:57.759 is also not a neighborhood. 0:45:57.880 --> 0:45:59.640 Again, this is a very did they know as a 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:00.960 permit was gonna have food in it? 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.719 This is a very populous tourist area. So it's like 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:06.279 if they were stalking him, if it was any other 0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:09.200 time of day, there would have been a million witnesses. 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:12.360 So like, thank god he just happened to Let's wait 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:14.880 all night in case he needs to come out and 0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:17.520 get food, because it's not like, you know, at six 0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:19.600 am even you know people will be out. 0:46:19.960 --> 0:46:22.680 We can't and let's hope he doesn't have a friend 0:46:22.680 --> 0:46:23.040 with him. 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:27.440 Yeah, so okay, yeah, no, no, there there are details 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:30.800 about this story that are strange and require more context. 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:35.760 Yes, all right, back to the tail. Yeah, he doesn't 0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:39.160 want to call the cops. Sure, he just doesn't trust 0:46:39.160 --> 0:46:43.919 the police. Fair, but his creative director calls anyway. 0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:49.399 I'm I guess we're just breezing on paste, you. 0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:51.719 Know, what I think it's like for his album or whatever. 0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:53.880 Okay, okay, okay, you can hear. 0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:56.880 The nine one one call of like in documentaries. He's like, 0:46:56.920 --> 0:46:59.319 I work for an artist. There's been an attack and 0:46:59.360 --> 0:47:00.840 he doesn't want me to call, but I think we 0:47:00.880 --> 0:47:04.120 need to file a report. Two detectives show up and 0:47:04.400 --> 0:47:08.239 Gatsen meets them in the lobby and he's like, all right, 0:47:08.480 --> 0:47:12.520 like you're going to meet a celebrity. Do you guys 0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:15.799 watch Empire? And they're like, oh, yeah, I've heard of it. 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:19.520 So they walk in. They ask him a few questions. 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:24.400 He's wearing the news okay, I don't like that. Yeah, 0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:29.160 and they're like, oh is that do you want to 0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:31.680 take that off? And he goes, well, yeah, I just 0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.840 put it on to show you guys. Okay, and he 0:47:35.120 --> 0:47:37.160 takes it off and then he goes, oh are you recording? 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:40.520 I don't want this recorded. So they turn their body 0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:44.879 cams off because he asked them to. Okay. I got 0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:47.239 the sense from the bodycam footage that he's like a 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:52.359 little bit embarrassed. Yeah, you know, he's been victimized and 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:54.080 maybe a little lamasculated. 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:56.680 Yeah, if you're beaten up in any context, as a man. 0:47:56.760 --> 0:47:59.279 You're that's you know, I don't think it's embarrassing, but 0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:01.440 you know, I can understand why other people are in there. 0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:05.480 It's like it's just an awkward situation. Eddie Johnson, the 0:48:05.560 --> 0:48:09.800 police chief superintendent, will later say that the noos being 0:48:09.920 --> 0:48:15.160 on was suspicious because who sits around wearing the noose? Yeah, 0:48:15.200 --> 0:48:19.439 it's traumatic, But Jesse will say he took it off, 0:48:19.480 --> 0:48:21.239 but then he just put it back on to show 0:48:21.280 --> 0:48:21.880 the cops. 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:22.360 Okay. 0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:27.359 Eddie Johnson loves to say that all these things were suspicious. 0:48:28.000 --> 0:48:30.880 He just calls everything suspicious in hindsight. 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:34.440 Yeah, like it's weird, but I don't find that suspicious. Actually, 0:48:34.800 --> 0:48:35.320 I am. 0:48:35.200 --> 0:48:39.080 Not gonna include all the things that he calls suspicious 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:41.920 because there's enough like good evidence that I'm just gonna 0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:45.040 skip all the things that he calls suspicious that are 0:48:45.840 --> 0:48:48.040 random and circumstantial. 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:49.000 Like hindsight thing. 0:48:49.200 --> 0:48:51.279 Like he just loves to be like, and I found 0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:53.160 that suspicious. I was on to him from the beginning 0:48:53.200 --> 0:48:55.880 because this was suspicious and that was suspicious, and I'm like, no, 0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:59.360 you didn't. You're just saying that because in hindsight, we 0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:02.000 know that it was suspicious, but like you don't freaking know, 0:49:02.280 --> 0:49:06.960 like whatever, I'm leaving out all of that, and so, 0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:11.000 you know, whatever, but noted just in case you had 0:49:11.000 --> 0:49:13.360 heard before, like in case you're coming into this episode 0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:15.560 being like, but what about this thing that was suspicious, 0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:18.960 Like I'm leaving I'm leaving out the suspicious things because 0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:21.200 there's good evidence and we have enough to go on 0:49:21.280 --> 0:49:29.080 with the good evidence. Great. So after he talks to 0:49:29.120 --> 0:49:30.880 the cops, the cops are like, you should probably go 0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:31.960 to the hospital and get checked out. 0:49:32.080 --> 0:49:32.279 Yeah. 0:49:32.280 --> 0:49:34.319 He goes to Northwestern more a hospital, He gets an 0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:36.719 X ray and CT scan. He's fine, it's just cut 0:49:36.760 --> 0:49:37.240 some bruises. 0:49:37.239 --> 0:49:38.240 I think that's where I was born. 0:49:39.200 --> 0:49:40.919 And they're like, did you know about Dana? 0:49:40.920 --> 0:49:42.879 They're did you hear about Dana nineteen ninety three? 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:49.760 Yeah, as you said, everyone is. Everyone has the reaction 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:52.920 that you sort of predicted of like, oh my god, 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:55.000 what a horrible thing. 0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:58.920 That's an abhorrent thing to happen to a person. 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:03.080 The news gets out pretty much overnight immediately. If there's 0:50:03.320 --> 0:50:08.080 any worry that this will kick off like a race 0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:12.439 war in Chicago, like it doesn't, Everyone's just team Jesse. 0:50:12.840 --> 0:50:15.279 Yeah, everyone should be like that is a horrible thing 0:50:15.360 --> 0:50:16.440 that happened to this person. 0:50:17.040 --> 0:50:20.880 Trump is like, that's awful. Yeah, he like kind of 0:50:20.920 --> 0:50:22.960 just skims over the maga of it, and he's just like, 0:50:23.040 --> 0:50:24.960 that's the worst. That's horrible. That shouldn't happen. 0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:26.800 That's nuts that. 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:27.839 Even Trump is. 0:50:27.800 --> 0:50:28.680 Like, yeah, bad. 0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:31.760 No, He's like, that's despicable. You shouldn't do that. That's awful. 0:50:32.600 --> 0:50:36.359 Reese Witherspoon gives him a shout out. Violet Davis, Zendaia, 0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:40.600 Kevin Bacon, Jordan Peel, Kamala Harris, Andy Cohen, et cetera, 0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:44.239 et cetera. Everybody, Yeah, giving shout outs to Jesse. 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:46.800 Okay, I have to bring this up just because you 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:47.640 said Kamala Harris. 0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:47.920 Yeah. 0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:50.400 The day that I saw Connor Story at lunch, oh, 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:54.680 I also saw Kamala Harris at that same restaurant. Just 0:50:54.719 --> 0:50:55.799 a fun fact about me. 0:50:56.000 --> 0:50:59.080 I recently saw Jason Siegel at UCB waiting in the 0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:03.359 lobby for hours because his fiance was in an improv show. 0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:05.720 And I was like, dude, go to a cafe nearby. 0:51:05.880 --> 0:51:07.880 You don't have to just wait in the lobby. Was 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:08.320 he working? 0:51:08.920 --> 0:51:12.640 He was already smoke. Oh, come on, Jason, And it. 0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:16.280 Wasn't even like proper UCB. It was the UCB annex. 0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:19.440 That's I wouldn't want my fiance waiting for me for 0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:22.520 that long. That's like good, Yeah, go to a cafe, 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:23.239 all right. 0:51:23.880 --> 0:51:29.600 Anyway, whatever, you know what it is, suspicious, suspicious. Listen, 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:30.920 we have to lighten up the episode. 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:31.680 We're lighting up. 0:51:31.880 --> 0:51:34.720 We're lightening up the episode. We're just talking about facts 0:51:34.920 --> 0:51:36.960 and then we're making jokes about other things that are 0:51:37.000 --> 0:51:37.800 not the facts. 0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:38.640 Thank you. 0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:41.359 Four days after the attack, Jesse plays his show at 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:42.600 the Troubadour here in La. 0:51:42.960 --> 0:51:44.120 Great Great Theater. 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:45.080 It's sold out. 0:51:45.360 --> 0:51:47.799 Yeah, I imagine a lot of support. He's been in 0:51:47.840 --> 0:51:48.960 the news. 0:51:48.560 --> 0:51:51.480 That of support. It's very important to him that he 0:51:52.239 --> 0:51:56.120 shows everyone that he's doing okay. It's also a Black 0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:59.080 History month at this point. Yeah, he tells the crowd, 0:51:59.480 --> 0:52:02.040 I'm not healed yet, but I'm going to I'm gonna 0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:04.920 stand strong with you all, he says, be blacker, be gayer, 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:06.680 I love you. 0:52:06.680 --> 0:52:07.080 You know what. 0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:10.920 There's no right or wrong way to respond to these things, 0:52:11.400 --> 0:52:14.319 and I'm just gonna put it out there. I am 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:18.720 a survivor of like a random stranger assault. I'm totally 0:52:18.719 --> 0:52:20.280 fine and the guy who did it is in prison, 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:23.840 And if anyone came for me about the way I 0:52:23.920 --> 0:52:26.359 reacted to that, I would like tell them to shut 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:29.600 the f up. So there's no right or wrong way 0:52:30.120 --> 0:52:34.440 except Erica Kirk is reacting the wrong way. She is 0:52:34.480 --> 0:52:38.279 reacting the wrong way to what a horrible, horrible thing 0:52:38.440 --> 0:52:41.000 happened to her family. Yea, and she is reacting the 0:52:41.000 --> 0:52:42.839 wrong way. I will say that Erica Kirk is being 0:52:42.880 --> 0:52:49.680 weird at this show. He also says I'm the gay Tupac, okay, 0:52:50.160 --> 0:52:54.640 which a lot of people are like, Now, that's an 0:52:54.680 --> 0:52:58.080 interesting thing to say. That's a little much. That's just 0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:00.239 an interesting like it's sort of when you try to 0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:01.160 give yourself a nickname. 0:53:02.840 --> 0:53:04.520 We're all calling me the gay Tupac. 0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:09.080 Yeah, it's sort of like he wanted bloggers to start 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:11.080 calling him the gay tupac, so he said he was 0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:11.760 the gay Tupac. 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:13.200 Yeah, that's a stretch. 0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:16.000 And like all the coverage is like, he did not 0:53:16.080 --> 0:53:18.920 elaborate what he meant by that. I think it's pretty 0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:21.879 clear what he meant by it. I a tiny bit 0:53:21.920 --> 0:53:22.759 get what he meant by that. 0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:25.480 I think I get what he was going for. I 0:53:25.480 --> 0:53:27.160 don't think I agree. 0:53:26.960 --> 0:53:30.000 They Here's what I'll say. They both have ties to 0:53:30.040 --> 0:53:30.880 the Bay Area. 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:36.360 They both are in show business, and we're victims of violence. 0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:40.680 Yes, both of their mothers were involved with the Black Panthers. 0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:41.400 Oh cool. 0:53:42.400 --> 0:53:47.920 So if he grew up being like interested in Tupac's 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:50.880 music and knew that he died from sort of just 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:53.520 like a sudden act of violence, and then this thing 0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:57.120 happened to him, he might I understand that he might 0:53:57.160 --> 0:54:00.840 be looking for a role model. Yeah, he might be like, God, 0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:05.360 who who do I like, I need to contextualize this 0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:08.880 thing that happened to me. Oh my god, Tupac. Like, 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:11.320 that's how I can make meaning out of this horrible 0:54:11.320 --> 0:54:13.920 thing that happened to me. Is Tupac's legacy. I'll be 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:15.080 the gay Tupac. 0:54:15.239 --> 0:54:17.200 I also think I'm gonna go on their record and 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:22.480 say this. Sometimes celebrities say dumb things people who are 0:54:22.520 --> 0:54:25.239 a lot a lot I think like happens a lot 0:54:25.239 --> 0:54:29.080 of celebrities are in weird bubbles. They get very arrogant 0:54:29.120 --> 0:54:32.040 because people are waiting on them hand and foot on set, 0:54:32.120 --> 0:54:34.440 like literally just being an actor on set, You're just like, 0:54:34.480 --> 0:54:36.640 can I get you anything? What can I do? And 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:39.799 so that for years, I think distorts their brains, and 0:54:39.840 --> 0:54:43.040 they're surrounded not by normal people but by other like 0:54:43.320 --> 0:54:47.279 showbiz people and people who make money off them, And 0:54:47.320 --> 0:54:49.720 I just think sometimes celebrities say dumb things. 0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:54.920 Yeah, it's a little as we talked about, this was 0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:58.239 a little fishy from the start. Yeah, Dave Chappelle has 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:02.720 a pretty famous bit about how like black people didn't 0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:05.320 believe this from the start. 0:55:05.400 --> 0:55:07.960 And I want to go on the record, fully normal 0:55:08.120 --> 0:55:10.800 and fully non controversial comedian Dave. 0:55:10.960 --> 0:55:13.399 Dave Schapelle, who's right about everything. I'm just quoting him 0:55:13.440 --> 0:55:15.640 as a source because it is very hard to do 0:55:15.920 --> 0:55:19.640 like forensic evidence of like who believed it. You can't 0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:24.680 like yeah, like I can't lexus nexus people's thoughts. So 0:55:24.880 --> 0:55:28.279 I'm trying, like, this is my source of what people thought. 0:55:28.400 --> 0:55:29.279 So what it? Yeah, what was? 0:55:29.320 --> 0:55:33.440 So Dave Chappelle has a bit about gay people wanting 0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:39.640 black people to believe this and black people not black people, 0:55:39.680 --> 0:55:42.400 being like, oh, it's not that we're against him because 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:45.400 he's gay. We're against him because we know he's lying. 0:55:45.640 --> 0:55:45.839 Yeah. 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:48.920 If you go on Reddit, the sort of the sentiment 0:55:49.040 --> 0:55:52.080 is like, oh, we all like Chicago wins always knew 0:55:52.080 --> 0:55:54.440 this was fishy, but we didn't want to say that because, 0:55:54.520 --> 0:55:56.400 you know, we didn't want to, Like, who wants to 0:55:56.400 --> 0:56:01.040 call hate victim a crime victim alive? Yeah, Usually we 0:56:01.080 --> 0:56:02.560 talk about why people believed it at the end of 0:56:02.600 --> 0:56:05.400 the episode. I want to right now talk about why 0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:09.080 people believed it. To me, this tell me if this 0:56:09.160 --> 0:56:12.719 sentence makes sense, this is the Ruth Konda Forever of hoaxes. 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:15.399 Yeah, white people wanted to live out. 0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:21.040 To me, this is this crime is a little cartoonish. Yeah, 0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:25.720 if only racism and homophobia were this clear cut and obvious. 0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:30.359 Like it's a horrible thing to believe happened, but it's 0:56:30.719 --> 0:56:35.000 almost a fantasy that makes rich liberals feel really good 0:56:35.000 --> 0:56:35.880 about how they voted. 0:56:36.680 --> 0:56:39.160 I will also say it kind of reminds me actually 0:56:39.200 --> 0:56:42.080 of something that happens on the other side too. Have 0:56:42.200 --> 0:56:46.640 you seen like Republicans occasionally or have you know, posted 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:50.720 on the internet like fake graffiti that like liberals supposed 0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:54.479 that like Antifa supposedly did to their house, like bad 0:56:54.560 --> 0:56:58.719 graffiti that's like Antifa forever with like weird misspelling, So 0:56:58.840 --> 0:57:02.480 like Republicans can be like ah antiva and it clearly 0:57:02.560 --> 0:57:04.759 is like a false flag that like they did to themselves. 0:57:05.400 --> 0:57:07.279 That's sort of the same thing where you're right, it's 0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:10.200 like a fantasy of what the other side does. 0:57:10.560 --> 0:57:15.440 Yeah, and it's like, this is such a neatly uncomplicated story. 0:57:15.719 --> 0:57:21.320 There are no bystanders who didn't help. A noose and 0:57:21.360 --> 0:57:24.880 a bleach are awful, but they're not guns, so we 0:57:24.920 --> 0:57:29.920 don't have to have a debate. He didn't get seriously injured. Like, 0:57:30.320 --> 0:57:35.320 obviously I'm against hate crimes, like obviously, Lizzie on the record, 0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:39.320 on the record, but you know, real life is messy. Ye. 0:57:39.640 --> 0:57:45.280 Usually when you attack someone, they punch back, and then 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:48.040 by the end of the fight it's not always super 0:57:48.120 --> 0:57:49.720 clear who the victim is. 0:57:50.240 --> 0:57:53.400 And also in terms of making something a hate crime 0:57:53.480 --> 0:57:57.040 versus just an act of random violence, these perpetrators said 0:57:57.600 --> 0:58:02.160 the f slur, the en slur, They explained their motives. Yeah, 0:58:02.200 --> 0:58:05.520 they said, we recognize you specifically the guy from Empire, 0:58:06.440 --> 0:58:10.720 gay hate crime, black hate crime. Like because sometimes people 0:58:10.760 --> 0:58:13.840 just attack people and it's horrible and horrific and there 0:58:13.920 --> 0:58:19.000 is no clear cut motive. So, like you said, uncomplicated, uncomplicated, 0:58:19.040 --> 0:58:22.600 and the noose again, very uncomplicated symbol. I mean, well, 0:58:22.640 --> 0:58:25.760 a complicated but like no, no, a complicated yes, clear 0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:29.040 clear symbol with a complicated, horrific legacy. 0:58:29.240 --> 0:58:32.200 And you know, in a lot of like homophobic attacks, 0:58:32.400 --> 0:58:35.800 the attacker will use the excuse that their victim was 0:58:35.840 --> 0:58:39.200 like coming on to them, which is horrible and like 0:58:39.560 --> 0:58:43.040 almost always not true, but it does speak to like 0:58:43.200 --> 0:58:47.920 a real anxiety about sexual safety. This time they didn't 0:58:47.960 --> 0:58:51.480 have to deal with that. Yeah, very few people are 0:58:52.320 --> 0:58:55.520 one hundred percent evil or one hundred percent good. So 0:58:55.600 --> 0:59:01.080 when we deal with actual crimes involving actual people, the 0:59:01.240 --> 0:59:06.520 narrative can get complicated. I don't know this one. 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:11.160 It's so clear if you're interested in a complicated hate crime. 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:13.840 They made a movie of this, but the documentary is 0:59:13.840 --> 0:59:17.640 more interesting. Marwin call. That movie is Welcome to Marwin 0:59:18.400 --> 0:59:21.160 with Steve Carell. But it's based on a real guy toys. 0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:22.960 It's based on a real hate crime. 0:59:23.320 --> 0:59:25.400 That's about a hate crime. Well that I think that 0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:26.840 was about a guy who liked figurine. 0:59:27.000 --> 0:59:30.720 Yeah, because because he was an artist and he Okay, 0:59:30.720 --> 0:59:32.040 I mean this is a real hate crime. 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:35.640 That's about a hate I'm literally learning this in real time. 0:59:35.560 --> 0:59:40.040 So all Welcome to Marwin called Marwin call on our 0:59:40.280 --> 0:59:44.760 hoax documentary hoax film. Watch. It's about an artist who 0:59:44.840 --> 0:59:47.920 is attacked and he can no longer do his drawing, 0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:50.720 so he turns figurines into his art and like makes 0:59:50.720 --> 0:59:53.960 elaborate figuringes. But what's kind of interesting and complicated is 0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:58.560 he is, in my recollection, a man who likes wearing 0:59:58.600 --> 1:00:02.240 women's shoes, but he's not. He's just perceived as gay, okay, 1:00:02.320 --> 1:00:04.280 and that's why they think he's gay and do the 1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:05.360 hate crime. But he's not gay. 1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:06.320 Okay. 1:00:06.400 --> 1:00:09.120 It's a horrific attack, and it's a really interesting documentary 1:00:09.320 --> 1:00:11.120 and it is a to the best of my knowledge, 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:12.920 and attack that did in fact happen. 1:00:13.880 --> 1:00:14.280 Wow. 1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:18.160 Yeah, watch the Marwin called documentary very interesting and nuanced. 1:00:18.720 --> 1:00:20.600 I'm losing my mind over here. 1:00:21.400 --> 1:00:23.600 You just thought it was toys and you're finding out 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:25.160 there's a whole hate crime subplot. 1:00:25.320 --> 1:00:29.400 They advertise that movie with no indication that it was 1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:30.200 about a hate crime. 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:33.320 Yeah, well, because it is kind of a complicated hate crime, 1:00:33.320 --> 1:00:35.560 because can you do hate a gay hate crime against 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:36.640 guys not actually gay? 1:00:37.360 --> 1:00:42.640 Okay? So again, see, I that's complicated. This isn't okay. 1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:45.600 And see, this is why we're leaving the tangents in. 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:48.840 This is why we're leaving the tangents, so okay to 1:00:48.880 --> 1:00:51.400 get that to the pore. So this is why people 1:00:51.440 --> 1:00:53.880 were eager to believe that this had happened, is that 1:00:53.920 --> 1:00:57.760 it cast the world in a very clear good versus 1:00:57.800 --> 1:00:59.280 evil light. 1:00:59.400 --> 1:01:02.080 Oh and they said this is Maga country, right, Yeah, 1:01:02.160 --> 1:01:03.920 that also is like clear villain. 1:01:04.080 --> 1:01:07.479 Yeah, it's all just very like, hey, here's a really 1:01:07.520 --> 1:01:11.520 obvious thing I can be against to show everyone that 1:01:11.560 --> 1:01:15.160 I'm a good person. Is I can support Jesse Smollett. 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:19.240 It's so easy to support Jesse Smollett that even Donald 1:01:19.280 --> 1:01:19.960 Trump can do it. 1:01:20.000 --> 1:01:22.960 Even Donald Trump can do it. It's so easy that 1:01:23.160 --> 1:01:25.560 you almost don't even look and see that it doesn't 1:01:25.560 --> 1:01:26.520 make a ton of sense. 1:01:26.560 --> 1:01:29.640 And also, historians sometimes refer to this thing called the 1:01:29.640 --> 1:01:33.439 criterion of embarrassment. It's actually more in ancient religious text, 1:01:33.480 --> 1:01:37.440 but it's sometimes used by historians, which basically means, given 1:01:37.520 --> 1:01:42.360 a historical text, if someone confesses or writes about something embarrassing, 1:01:42.880 --> 1:01:45.960 you verge on the side of it being true because 1:01:45.960 --> 1:01:47.960 you think, like, why would they write something embarrassing if 1:01:48.000 --> 1:01:51.920 it's not true? And a man being beat up is 1:01:52.040 --> 1:01:55.280 usually not something that someone wants to brag about. Yes, 1:01:55.440 --> 1:01:59.959 but this is kind of the unique brief moment when 1:02:00.040 --> 1:02:04.520 there would be maybe some social political capital to be 1:02:04.720 --> 1:02:06.240 gained by this publicity. 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:08.600 Yes. And he also, I mean, like it being two 1:02:08.640 --> 1:02:11.400 against one, I think sort of gets him out of 1:02:11.440 --> 1:02:13.120 the like embarrassment of losing the fight. 1:02:13.240 --> 1:02:14.840 Yeah, but yeah. 1:02:14.840 --> 1:02:17.240 He can be like I fought back, but you know, 1:02:17.640 --> 1:02:18.320 two against one. 1:02:18.440 --> 1:02:18.840 Yeah. 1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:21.880 All right, So, as I said, there's all these things 1:02:21.880 --> 1:02:25.680 that people find suspicious, but the first thing that is 1:02:25.760 --> 1:02:32.280 like actually suspicious is that Jesse won't turn over his phone. Okay, 1:02:32.520 --> 1:02:35.120 so they want his phone because he says that he 1:02:35.240 --> 1:02:37.400 was on the phone with his manager at the time 1:02:37.440 --> 1:02:40.160 of the attack, and he says that he has like 1:02:40.240 --> 1:02:43.760 private stuff on there, like his music and you know, 1:02:43.840 --> 1:02:47.200 other stuff that he's working on. He later says that. 1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:50.760 And you know, people take photos from private photos from 1:02:50.800 --> 1:02:53.800 celebrities sometimes, I mean, yeah, he. 1:02:53.880 --> 1:02:57.000 Later says that, like he was doing drugs, so he 1:02:57.040 --> 1:02:58.240 just didn't want them to find that out. 1:02:58.360 --> 1:02:58.800 Yeah. 1:02:58.840 --> 1:03:02.320 I'm also gonna just maybe this is none of my business. 1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:05.360 I'm going to speculate this is a gay man in Hollywood. Yeah, 1:03:06.000 --> 1:03:11.560 I would imagine that there's material on there from people 1:03:11.560 --> 1:03:12.240 who are not out. 1:03:12.560 --> 1:03:14.200 I was gonna say the same thing. I was like, 1:03:14.280 --> 1:03:17.560 this is a gay man in Hollywood. I fully understand 1:03:17.600 --> 1:03:20.840 why he doesn't want his phone going to the police, 1:03:20.880 --> 1:03:23.160 where all it would take is one person to like 1:03:23.280 --> 1:03:27.720 leak embarrassing, compromising things like you said on drugs, engaging 1:03:27.760 --> 1:03:28.919 with people who aren't out. 1:03:29.080 --> 1:03:29.240 Yeah. 1:03:29.280 --> 1:03:29.520 Sure. 1:03:30.200 --> 1:03:33.080 So about a week later he gives them a PDF 1:03:33.240 --> 1:03:37.320 of his phone records. Yea, but he has redacted some stuff. 1:03:37.440 --> 1:03:41.040 Yeah, maybe calls to people who aren't out, whatever, drug dealer. 1:03:41.160 --> 1:03:45.920 So yeah, so he's like cooperating in quotes, he's cooperating. 1:03:45.920 --> 1:03:47.880 He's cooperating. But he's cooperating. 1:03:48.000 --> 1:03:50.880 You sure, But to this point, I actually am like 1:03:50.960 --> 1:03:51.640 I understand that. 1:03:51.760 --> 1:03:56.240 Yeah, the attack itself took place right by a security camera, 1:03:56.320 --> 1:03:59.000 but the camera was like facing the other way, so 1:03:59.040 --> 1:04:02.520 they don't have footage the attack. But Chicago has a 1:04:02.640 --> 1:04:07.240 ton of security foot cameras all around. So the what 1:04:07.280 --> 1:04:10.320 the police do is they just collect security footage from 1:04:10.720 --> 1:04:12.280 all around the area, and just. 1:04:12.280 --> 1:04:14.560 Looking at the Google map, there's like a lot of 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:17.760 banks around. It's like a very commercial area. It's like 1:04:17.800 --> 1:04:19.600 there's a lot of banks, which seems a lot of. 1:04:19.520 --> 1:04:24.240 Hotels, yeah, which have a lot of cameras in the 1:04:24.360 --> 1:04:27.480 lobby facing outwards so you can see if people are 1:04:27.600 --> 1:04:31.280 passing in front of the lobby. So they don't find 1:04:32.320 --> 1:04:36.320 any footage of the attack, but they do find two 1:04:36.360 --> 1:04:40.040 figures who leave the scene right after the attack. And 1:04:40.080 --> 1:04:43.160 again it's two am during a polar vortex, there's not 1:04:43.600 --> 1:04:45.840 a lot of people around there, like this has to 1:04:45.880 --> 1:04:49.560 be there. Yeah. By going from camera to camera, including 1:04:49.760 --> 1:04:53.720 ring cameras. Remember your ring footage is not private, they 1:04:53.760 --> 1:04:56.800 watch those figures get into a cab and go up 1:04:56.840 --> 1:04:59.040 to the north side of Chicago, and that's where they 1:04:59.120 --> 1:04:59.840 lose track of them. 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:02.360 I mean, so they're working to find these guys. 1:05:02.440 --> 1:05:06.160 Oh yeah, absolutely, this is a international news story. The 1:05:06.200 --> 1:05:09.160 cops do not have a good reputation. They want to win. 1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:10.520 Yeah, they want to find these guys. 1:05:10.600 --> 1:05:12.320 They want to find these guys. They do not want 1:05:12.360 --> 1:05:15.040 to drop the ball on a hate crime against a 1:05:15.120 --> 1:05:18.920 black celebrity in the city of Chicago. So they can't 1:05:18.960 --> 1:05:21.480 find out who these people are, so they decide to 1:05:21.600 --> 1:05:25.480 go like back in time, they retrace the steps. They 1:05:25.520 --> 1:05:28.720 find what they think are the same two figures arriving 1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:34.800 in the area and they basically run it back. They 1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:38.440 find those guys getting out of a cab. They retrace 1:05:38.520 --> 1:05:41.920 the cab. They find those guys getting into the cab 1:05:42.000 --> 1:05:43.640 after getting out of an Uber. 1:05:44.000 --> 1:05:46.360 Hmm, okay, well this does sound suspicious. 1:05:47.480 --> 1:05:51.040 And then they retrace the Uber coming from that same 1:05:51.240 --> 1:05:54.320 area on the north side. Okay, so it looks like 1:05:55.200 --> 1:05:59.320 these two people got into got into an Uber, took 1:05:59.360 --> 1:06:02.400 it down to sort of near where the attack happened, 1:06:02.520 --> 1:06:04.440 got into a cab, took it to the area of 1:06:04.440 --> 1:06:07.960 the attack, waded around a little bit, did the attack, 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:09.120 took a cab back to the north. 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:11.160 It does seem like something someone doing a hate crime 1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:11.480 would do. 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:13.920 Yeah, Like, why would you go from a uber to 1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:16.200 a cab unless you were trying to sort of cover 1:06:16.280 --> 1:06:19.720 up your footsteps. So they call Uber and they're like, hey, 1:06:19.760 --> 1:06:22.720 we need ride shared data and they say the and 1:06:22.960 --> 1:06:26.360 again two am in a polar vortex. Uber says there 1:06:26.400 --> 1:06:30.560 was only one ride called that night in that area, 1:06:30.920 --> 1:06:34.760 and it was called by this guy, ola Osandero. Ola 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:39.320 Osandero is a Nigerian American. They in a lot of 1:06:39.320 --> 1:06:42.760 press are called like he and his brother are gonna 1:06:43.240 --> 1:06:46.680 be called like the Nigerians they're Nigerian American. They grew 1:06:46.720 --> 1:06:50.040 up in America, but their families from Nigeria. Ola and 1:06:50.120 --> 1:06:54.680 Bola are the brothers. Those are their nicknames. They are 1:06:55.720 --> 1:06:59.720 Nigerian and so they are like dark skinned black like Jesse. 1:07:00.040 --> 1:07:02.480 If you saw him very quickly, you might mistake him 1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:05.040 for you know, he can be a Mexican, he could 1:07:05.040 --> 1:07:07.800 be something else. Ola and Bola you would not mistake 1:07:07.840 --> 1:07:11.840 for any other race. They are black yeap and fully 1:07:11.880 --> 1:07:16.480 around the eyes, yes, any any part of them. Obviously, 1:07:16.960 --> 1:07:19.040 black people can beat up other black people. Yeah, they 1:07:19.080 --> 1:07:22.120 can be maga and I guess they could shout racial 1:07:22.160 --> 1:07:25.040 epithets at each other. But it just it does seem 1:07:25.080 --> 1:07:27.840 unlikely that Jesse would confuse them for white like. It 1:07:27.960 --> 1:07:30.200 just it doesn't really line up that this would be them. 1:07:30.840 --> 1:07:33.280 But this is where the evidence has taken the police 1:07:33.400 --> 1:07:36.560 that these are the two guys who the only. 1:07:36.400 --> 1:07:37.920 Two guys who are in this area. 1:07:38.040 --> 1:07:42.360 Yeah, going through social media, the detectives see that they 1:07:42.400 --> 1:07:44.360 have been extras on Empire. 1:07:44.960 --> 1:07:45.880 Oh. 1:07:46.120 --> 1:07:50.880 Interesting, they know Jesse. Interesting, but they can't do anything 1:07:50.920 --> 1:07:53.400 yet because the day after the incident, Ola and Bola 1:07:53.440 --> 1:07:57.480 flew to Nigeria out of the country. Interesting So the 1:07:57.480 --> 1:08:00.600 cops do something I find kind of underhanded, which is 1:08:00.640 --> 1:08:04.000 that they start leaking to journalists that they have suspicions 1:08:04.040 --> 1:08:05.120 about Jesse's story. 1:08:05.520 --> 1:08:08.919 Yeah, that is not great too early. Yeah, you haven't 1:08:08.960 --> 1:08:12.360 figured it out yet, especially because you're like, maybe these 1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:14.880 people knew Jesse and wanted to do it a hate 1:08:14.920 --> 1:08:17.760 crime against him, specifically because he said something mean on 1:08:18.040 --> 1:08:18.839 the set of Umpire. 1:08:18.960 --> 1:08:22.120 Who knows, And this allows them to discredit him without 1:08:22.200 --> 1:08:25.400 risking their own reputation because they're not saying it with 1:08:25.479 --> 1:08:27.840 their chest, you know, they're letting the media take the fall. 1:08:28.640 --> 1:08:31.360 People are also more likely to believe a leak than 1:08:31.400 --> 1:08:34.640 an actual source because it feels like a scoop. Yeah, 1:08:34.720 --> 1:08:36.960 it feels like someone is telling the truth off the 1:08:37.000 --> 1:08:38.960 record that they're not allowed to say on the record. 1:08:39.479 --> 1:08:42.800 And people are really suspicious of the police, but they're 1:08:42.880 --> 1:08:45.160 going to trust like a dogged reporter that has the 1:08:45.200 --> 1:08:45.960 real story. 1:08:46.479 --> 1:08:49.599 Yeah, especially if it's like one cop speaking out off 1:08:49.600 --> 1:08:50.480 the record. 1:08:51.000 --> 1:08:53.960 When really this is just cops feeding journalists talking points 1:08:54.280 --> 1:08:56.560 that the journalist will have to answer for, but the 1:08:56.600 --> 1:08:57.920 cop doesn't have to stand behind it. 1:08:57.960 --> 1:09:00.080 Oh that's so smart. I never even thought of that. 1:09:00.120 --> 1:09:02.880 You're still right. So yeah. Back in twenty nineteen, this 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:05.120 is where I personally stopped following the story. I was like, 1:09:05.240 --> 1:09:09.280 this is not white people's business. Yep, but it works. 1:09:10.120 --> 1:09:14.439 The tide begins turning people feel more comfortable, saying, this 1:09:14.479 --> 1:09:18.880 doesn't really add up, Maga. People don't watch Empire. People 1:09:18.920 --> 1:09:21.280 are not carrying a bleachin rope with them at two am. 1:09:22.240 --> 1:09:27.639 Doesn't really seem like skinheads would bother doing a whole 1:09:28.040 --> 1:09:32.599 thing against this guy. Yeah. So Valentine's Day twenty nineteen, 1:09:32.680 --> 1:09:36.400 two weeks after the incident, Fox tells Jesse, you need 1:09:36.439 --> 1:09:38.200 to do some damage control. 1:09:38.240 --> 1:09:40.200 Fox the network that Empires are Yes. 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:43.679 Yes, And so he does an interview with Robin Roberts 1:09:44.280 --> 1:09:48.880 because she is black and gay. Yeah, and he sits 1:09:48.920 --> 1:09:51.599 down with her and says, I want people to know 1:09:51.680 --> 1:09:55.160 that I fought back and I'm not lying. He also 1:09:55.200 --> 1:09:58.200 says that he thinks he would be more believed if 1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:01.080 he had said that the attackers were Mexican or Muslim. 1:10:02.280 --> 1:10:07.000 I don't know about that, but maybe maybe, he says, 1:10:07.120 --> 1:10:08.920 you know, I want the little gay kid at home 1:10:09.000 --> 1:10:11.799 to know that he matters. He's very he's like crying 1:10:12.000 --> 1:10:16.720 and yeah, being a little righteous, but again, people can 1:10:16.760 --> 1:10:18.120 react to things however they want. 1:10:18.200 --> 1:10:20.320 According to his Twitter, he wants to save the world. 1:10:20.400 --> 1:10:23.400 He is here to save the world. They show him 1:10:23.439 --> 1:10:26.400 a they show a picture from the security footage of 1:10:26.439 --> 1:10:30.320 the two dark figures. Yeah, and he's like, yeah, see, 1:10:30.320 --> 1:10:32.240 I'm not making this up. There were two guys in 1:10:32.240 --> 1:10:36.320 the area that I said. Those two guys did it, okay, 1:10:36.560 --> 1:10:39.439 And the cops are like, I'm so glad he said 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:43.280 that on national television because those two guys are Ola 1:10:43.320 --> 1:10:46.519 and Bola, and we are right now at the airport 1:10:46.600 --> 1:10:49.320 picking them up. Great because they just flew back to 1:10:49.320 --> 1:10:52.960 the US. They detain them as persons of interest and 1:10:53.000 --> 1:10:55.040 they don't say anything until their lawyer gets there. 1:10:55.200 --> 1:10:55.599 Smart. 1:10:55.840 --> 1:10:59.240 Their lawyer is literally a woman that their mom met 1:10:59.280 --> 1:11:03.519 when she was riving uber. I mean sure, yeah. She 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:06.639 shows them the Robin Roberts interview and she is like, look, 1:11:06.720 --> 1:11:10.360 he's fingering you on national television. You're going to take 1:11:10.400 --> 1:11:13.000 the fall for this, so you should probably start talking. 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:23.200 Oh what did they say? 1:11:23.240 --> 1:11:30.599 Okay? So this is where there's like speculation. During the 1:11:30.680 --> 1:11:35.400 raid of their home, the cops found guns and drugs 1:11:35.479 --> 1:11:39.080 that they weren't supposed to have. So if you are 1:11:39.160 --> 1:11:43.840 inclined to be anti Chicago p D, you could say 1:11:44.400 --> 1:11:49.320 that the Chicago pe D used this to coerce a 1:11:49.400 --> 1:11:53.599 false confession out of the brothers. Okay, if you are 1:11:53.640 --> 1:11:59.800 inclined to be anti Jesse, you could say that no, 1:12:00.200 --> 1:12:02.679 just cut a deal for a true confession. 1:12:03.080 --> 1:12:07.000 Yeah, and especially given the context of his phone records 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:10.839 were not given over and were redacted, that's additional context 1:12:10.880 --> 1:12:13.720 that is just interesting but also very plausible. 1:12:13.880 --> 1:12:18.880 Just I'm just gonna report the facts, okay, the fact 1:12:19.080 --> 1:12:23.240 like I wasn't you know, meetings with the lawyer are privileged. 1:12:23.240 --> 1:12:25.479 I'm just gonna report the facts of what they confess, Okay. 1:12:25.560 --> 1:12:27.479 Not how they got the confession, because I don't know. 1:12:29.439 --> 1:12:33.120 What they say is they met Jesse on the set 1:12:33.160 --> 1:12:37.640 of Empire, and they became his friends and his trainers 1:12:37.800 --> 1:12:42.400 and his week dealers. Sure they show the cops at 1:12:42.439 --> 1:12:44.479 text that one of them got from Jesse saying hey, 1:12:44.560 --> 1:12:46.760 I need your help with something on the low, like 1:12:46.800 --> 1:12:51.360 a few days before the attack, and that text referred 1:12:51.400 --> 1:12:54.840 to a conversation where he asked them to beat him up. 1:12:56.040 --> 1:12:57.760 He said that his plan was for them to beat 1:12:57.840 --> 1:12:59.720 him up near a security camera and then he was 1:12:59.760 --> 1:13:02.040 going to leak the footage onto the internet to become 1:13:02.120 --> 1:13:05.280 a poster boy for like black Lives Matter and gay rights. 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:10.080 And the brothers also have a check from Jesse from 1:13:10.360 --> 1:13:14.080 for thirty five dollars. So the cops call Jesse down 1:13:14.120 --> 1:13:16.599 to the station and show him the mugshots of Ola 1:13:16.640 --> 1:13:19.360 and Bola, and they're like, hey, we found the guys 1:13:19.360 --> 1:13:21.840 from the security footage. They were the only people in 1:13:21.880 --> 1:13:24.240 the area on the night of the attack. Would you 1:13:24.360 --> 1:13:28.040 like to press charges against them for aggravated assault? And 1:13:28.320 --> 1:13:32.920 Jesse's like, I told you it was two white guys, 1:13:32.960 --> 1:13:35.920 and these are two black guys. You can't tell black 1:13:35.920 --> 1:13:38.240 people and white people part you know, it's very progressive 1:13:38.240 --> 1:13:41.519 of you. That's a joke. He's just mad and says no. 1:13:42.920 --> 1:13:45.479 The brothers say that Jesse told them what to buy, 1:13:46.040 --> 1:13:48.080 which the cops then leak. 1:13:48.000 --> 1:13:48.639 To a reporter. 1:13:48.840 --> 1:13:52.320 So then the reporter goes to every store that sells 1:13:52.439 --> 1:13:55.200 ski masks, and sure enough he finds the store which 1:13:55.200 --> 1:13:58.559 has a security camera, and there's footage of them buying 1:13:58.560 --> 1:14:01.439 the ski masks. You know, it's cold in Chicago, person 1:14:01.439 --> 1:14:03.800 could just want to buy a mask for their face. 1:14:03.840 --> 1:14:08.880 But like it's really looking like their story checks out. Yeah, 1:14:09.439 --> 1:14:11.840 and one of the brothers did call Jesse at one 1:14:11.880 --> 1:14:14.800 am the morning of the incident. Yeah, there's like a 1:14:14.800 --> 1:14:19.439 collogue of that. And then I mean the final nail 1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:24.000 in the coffin, the king speaks, fifty Cent calls Jesse 1:14:24.080 --> 1:14:27.760 a liar. Fifty fifty cent has weighed in. Fifty cent 1:14:27.800 --> 1:14:30.080 has weighed in, he has spoken. 1:14:31.240 --> 1:14:36.600 Oh, and oh this all yeah, Oh my gosh, I understand. 1:14:35.920 --> 1:14:40.880 All of Like, oh, what are you groaning about? 1:14:41.120 --> 1:14:44.519 I just like I I know that as a white person, 1:14:44.560 --> 1:14:46.840 it is not in my position to weigh in, not 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:49.000 on the facts, and I'm very, very grateful that you 1:14:49.520 --> 1:14:52.719 have restricted yourself to the facts as they are known. 1:14:53.400 --> 1:14:58.280 I just don't like someone taking advantage of a moment 1:14:58.479 --> 1:15:01.160 where being a victim of a hate crime would lead 1:15:01.200 --> 1:15:05.480 to attention and publicity. And it feels so ichy. 1:15:05.560 --> 1:15:06.439 It feels icky. 1:15:07.080 --> 1:15:09.880 But it's also like no one again, like you said, 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:10.679 no one got hurt. 1:15:11.120 --> 1:15:18.000 Yeah, Like, if we take away the attention and the 1:15:18.160 --> 1:15:23.400 like social capital and the race of it all, it's 1:15:23.439 --> 1:15:27.120 like it's just this weird like stunt gone wrong. 1:15:27.280 --> 1:15:29.479 It's a stunt gone wrong, but it was a stunt 1:15:29.520 --> 1:15:31.760 also meant to and. 1:15:31.680 --> 1:15:34.160 You can't tie away those things, but if you could, it. 1:15:34.120 --> 1:15:38.440 Was a stunt meant to tug at the heartstrings of liberals, 1:15:39.240 --> 1:15:41.400 And I'm like, oh, you got me. 1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:43.840 Yeah, I mean there's a good thirty rock line where 1:15:44.000 --> 1:15:46.280 Liz is like, my white guilt should only be used 1:15:46.320 --> 1:15:46.639 for good. 1:15:46.720 --> 1:15:49.799 Yeah, don't take advantage of my white guilt. 1:15:50.439 --> 1:15:52.479 Yeah, But also like, what did you get out of it? 1:15:52.520 --> 1:15:55.040 No money? Like nobody actually did anything with their white guilt. 1:15:55.080 --> 1:15:57.479 They got to read a true badoor show and he 1:15:57.560 --> 1:15:58.640 got more famous. 1:15:58.280 --> 1:15:59.960 If that had already been booked. Oh look good for 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:01.000 pe who just bought more tickets. 1:16:01.520 --> 1:16:07.559 He got more famous, and then he got unfortunately again, 1:16:07.680 --> 1:16:10.639 the real victims aren't. And this is now me getting 1:16:10.640 --> 1:16:13.599 on a soapbox. It's not white people who feel silly 1:16:13.600 --> 1:16:16.160 that they were taking advantage of and tricked. It is 1:16:16.320 --> 1:16:19.800 victims of actual hate crimes that I think then are 1:16:19.880 --> 1:16:22.599 taken less seriously and are framed a little bit as 1:16:22.640 --> 1:16:25.400 more of a joke. Like I think that genuinely is 1:16:25.439 --> 1:16:28.759 the consequence of a hoax like this is it muddies 1:16:28.760 --> 1:16:30.360 the water for real victims. 1:16:30.439 --> 1:16:33.960 And we'll get into like if that has come to pass. Yeah, 1:16:34.000 --> 1:16:36.400 so he is charged with disorderly conduct and finding a 1:16:36.439 --> 1:16:40.000 false police report. Oh, he's charged, all right. He turns 1:16:40.080 --> 1:16:44.040 himself in and hands over a bond. Jesse's whole family 1:16:44.120 --> 1:16:46.360 stands by him, but other than that, pretty much nobody 1:16:46.360 --> 1:16:47.080 claims him. 1:16:47.400 --> 1:16:50.120 Yeah, it's a it's a tough story, especially once the 1:16:50.400 --> 1:16:51.640 Olem bullet confession. 1:16:51.800 --> 1:16:53.200 Yeah, because they do. 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:55.760 Can they confess that Jesse asked them to do this? 1:16:56.120 --> 1:16:59.680 Yes? Yeah, yeah, and he's getting made fun of on 1:16:59.760 --> 1:17:01.280 us well, he's written out of Empire. 1:17:01.600 --> 1:17:02.080 Yeah. 1:17:02.120 --> 1:17:05.719 He goes to set and like apologizes, but he doesn't 1:17:05.720 --> 1:17:08.599 admit anything. He's just like, I'm sorry, this is happening. 1:17:10.000 --> 1:17:12.560 He hires a lawyer from a law firm that represents 1:17:12.600 --> 1:17:16.479 like Chris Brown and Andrew Tate. But whatever lawyers take 1:17:16.520 --> 1:17:19.919 the cases they take. His lawyer goes on the offensive, 1:17:20.000 --> 1:17:23.160 asking what I think are some pretty good questions, which is, 1:17:23.880 --> 1:17:25.880 why would he hire black people to pretend to be 1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:28.519 white people? Why wouldn't he just hire some white people? Yeah, 1:17:28.640 --> 1:17:31.080 you know, to which I would say, like, probably didn't 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:33.560 think they'd get caught, But still. 1:17:33.400 --> 1:17:35.479 He didn't think they were caught. He was friends with them. 1:17:35.520 --> 1:17:37.559 You don't want to like, maybe he didn't have two 1:17:37.560 --> 1:17:39.720 white people that he was close enough friends with that 1:17:39.760 --> 1:17:43.160 he would fully trust not to flip if the when 1:17:43.160 --> 1:17:45.639 the pressure came in, because it's like when the police, 1:17:46.320 --> 1:17:48.479 if the police figured it out, you know. 1:17:48.920 --> 1:17:51.639 Right, But still like, it's just a good question. It's 1:17:51.640 --> 1:17:54.439 a weird it's a weird decision. And also, why would 1:17:54.439 --> 1:17:57.360 he do this? What's the motive? The Chicago p D 1:17:57.520 --> 1:17:59.519 have a press conference and they say that he did 1:17:59.560 --> 1:18:02.639 it to get a raise and that he sent himself 1:18:02.680 --> 1:18:06.240 the threatening letter. They have no evidence for either of 1:18:06.240 --> 1:18:09.680 these claims. Yeah, so like that those are just two 1:18:09.760 --> 1:18:13.439 things that they state very unequivocally that they will never 1:18:13.479 --> 1:18:14.479 provide evidence for. 1:18:15.280 --> 1:18:18.160 I also, I'm like, I have absolutely no doubt that 1:18:18.240 --> 1:18:20.720 he has been threatened and harassed. 1:18:20.840 --> 1:18:23.559 Yes, the FBI looks into the letter, they never figure 1:18:23.600 --> 1:18:26.680 out who sent it, and there's no evidence that he 1:18:27.200 --> 1:18:29.439 that a this would have somehow led to a raise 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:31.759 or b that like he was hard up for cash. 1:18:31.840 --> 1:18:34.479 So that's just like not a good motive. 1:18:34.600 --> 1:18:37.799 The only motive you can point to is publicity and attention. 1:18:38.000 --> 1:18:39.639 I think that's a much better motive. 1:18:39.720 --> 1:18:42.160 Yeah, he's an actor. They famously love attention. 1:18:42.320 --> 1:18:46.000 Yeah, I'll say another thing. Who pays for crimes by check? 1:18:46.760 --> 1:18:49.240 That I was gonna say, well, because I was gonna say, 1:18:49.280 --> 1:18:51.200 they could say, well he's are we deal? You know 1:18:51.320 --> 1:18:53.599 there were his weed dealer. He was paying for weed. 1:18:53.640 --> 1:18:55.840 But you would never pay for weed with a check. 1:18:56.400 --> 1:19:01.920 Rich person, one oh one, get cash cash. Jesse's explanation 1:19:02.000 --> 1:19:03.720 for the check is that it's for training and a 1:19:03.760 --> 1:19:05.879 meal plan for a music video that he's. 1:19:05.920 --> 1:19:08.840 Going to Also plausible. I would pay for training in 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:10.200 a meal plan via check. 1:19:10.200 --> 1:19:13.880 And literally in the like note section on the check 1:19:14.000 --> 1:19:16.800 is like the name of the music video. Oh yeah, 1:19:16.840 --> 1:19:20.880 Like it absolutely checks out. He says that the need 1:19:20.920 --> 1:19:24.120 your help on the low text was about he wanted 1:19:24.120 --> 1:19:27.639 them to pick up an herbal fat loss drug while 1:19:27.640 --> 1:19:32.000 they were in Nigeria. Yeah that's like illegal in the States, like. 1:19:32.680 --> 1:19:34.760 They were going to Nigeria. Also plausible. 1:19:35.320 --> 1:19:38.880 I would also believe that Jesse was just embarrassed and 1:19:38.960 --> 1:19:40.600 trying to cover up the fact that he wanted like 1:19:40.680 --> 1:19:41.960 regular illegal drugs. 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:45.480 Yeah, like I could even see. 1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:50.720 A world where he says, okay, they the reason that 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:53.439 they came and met up with me at two am 1:19:54.439 --> 1:19:58.040 was to like I bought cocaine from them. Yeah, and 1:19:58.120 --> 1:20:02.040 then also unrel into that I got beat up by 1:20:02.040 --> 1:20:02.840 some white guys. Yeah. 1:20:02.880 --> 1:20:05.360 I wasn't out just getting a sandwich. I was also 1:20:05.360 --> 1:20:06.000 buying cocaine. 1:20:06.080 --> 1:20:08.519 Yeah, I was also buying cocaine. And then later I 1:20:08.600 --> 1:20:11.080 ran into one white guy who did this thing like 1:20:11.200 --> 1:20:13.320 it was a coincidence. Yeah, you know what I mean, Like, 1:20:13.640 --> 1:20:15.680 I'm just making all this up, but I'm like, I 1:20:15.680 --> 1:20:18.720 would believe that there's some version of it that involves 1:20:19.720 --> 1:20:25.040 like regular drugs. Yeah, very plausible. Yeah, but I don't know. 1:20:25.720 --> 1:20:30.400 He never says any of that. So whatever. The cops 1:20:32.080 --> 1:20:35.600 they'll say that they're really mad and that they think that, 1:20:35.920 --> 1:20:39.679 you know, we wish that the murders got this attention 1:20:39.840 --> 1:20:42.080 instead of this Hollywood thing. I think they're a love 1:20:42.120 --> 1:20:46.439 of them. Oh I but they're laughing it up. They're thrilled. 1:20:46.600 --> 1:20:49.080 They they're like, look at our good police work. We're 1:20:49.120 --> 1:20:50.759 smarter than this TV star. 1:20:51.200 --> 1:20:51.800 That's the thing. 1:20:51.960 --> 1:20:54.559 When I'm saying the muddying the waters this like lets 1:20:54.600 --> 1:20:57.200 the cops have a victory lab. They're like, don't you 1:20:57.280 --> 1:21:00.439 dare take advantage of our racial tension and we less 1:21:00.439 --> 1:21:03.920 hate crimes than you thought. In Chicago see one less. Yeah, 1:21:04.160 --> 1:21:10.240 specifically one less, one less better than one more. Uh, 1:21:10.280 --> 1:21:11.679 and Marchie pleads not guilty. 1:21:11.880 --> 1:21:12.480 Sure. 1:21:12.880 --> 1:21:16.160 At this point, Kim Fox has recused herself the lawyer, 1:21:16.600 --> 1:21:20.360 the state's attorney, state's attorney, because back when Jesse was 1:21:20.400 --> 1:21:23.040 the victim, she talked to him. So she's sort of like, 1:21:23.760 --> 1:21:28.240 so she just refuses herself. Yeah, so the attorney prosecuting 1:21:28.240 --> 1:21:31.240 his case is now a white man named Joe Maggats 1:21:32.439 --> 1:21:37.000 mag At, I know, right, And all of a sudden 1:21:37.160 --> 1:21:43.439 he drops the charges. Sure, and Jesse agrees to pay 1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:46.519 ten thousand dollars of his bond and complete community service. 1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:49.639 Honestly, I'm like, yeah, as you should. It's like, it's 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:52.320 such a messy, complicated situation, and you're like, let's not 1:21:52.320 --> 1:21:54.799 make a big deal of this. It's embarrassing for everyone. 1:21:54.920 --> 1:21:57.400 Yeah, Kim is still the one who has to go, 1:21:57.760 --> 1:22:02.160 like on news shows and explain the decision. She says, 1:22:02.640 --> 1:22:04.920 this might seem really strange to people who don't work 1:22:04.920 --> 1:22:09.200 in the legal system, but it's actually not that strange 1:22:08.600 --> 1:22:11.640 that the state's attorney would choose not to pursue a 1:22:11.680 --> 1:22:14.759 class four felony, which is the lowest class of felony. 1:22:14.880 --> 1:22:17.519 Yeah, it's like what you said, it was like filing 1:22:17.560 --> 1:22:20.080 a false police report. Why would they go through this 1:22:20.439 --> 1:22:23.679 entire rigmarole for a filing a false police report? 1:22:23.800 --> 1:22:25.920 Yeah, she says Cook County has a really high rate 1:22:25.960 --> 1:22:28.960 of homicide, domestic violence, gun violence, and it's a better 1:22:29.080 --> 1:22:33.000 use of her time to go after those crimes. And 1:22:33.080 --> 1:22:34.759 he's not just getting away with it. He did community 1:22:34.840 --> 1:22:37.400 service and gave up money, and he can put whatever 1:22:37.439 --> 1:22:40.559 spinning wants on it. But you know, lots of people 1:22:40.600 --> 1:22:42.679 do crimes and don't see the inside of a jail cell. 1:22:42.760 --> 1:22:44.559 And he has no criminal record, and it's a non 1:22:44.600 --> 1:22:45.240 violent offense. 1:22:45.400 --> 1:22:48.920 And also it's like got a quote unquote got away 1:22:48.920 --> 1:22:54.679 with it. It's a crime that doesn't like hurt people tangibly. Again, 1:22:54.720 --> 1:22:57.439 we talked about mudding the waters and the real victim 1:22:57.479 --> 1:22:59.680 then of it coming out was his reputation. 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:04.280 Like mostly people want to make him pay because they 1:23:04.479 --> 1:23:09.599 tweeted really cringey statements about lynching. Yeah, but making people 1:23:09.640 --> 1:23:13.320 tweet cringey statements about lyinging is not against the law. 1:23:13.360 --> 1:23:14.240 It's not against the law. 1:23:14.840 --> 1:23:17.240 Mayor Emmanuel calls it a whitewash of justice. 1:23:17.479 --> 1:23:22.320 Oh maybe shouldn't I use that right? All right, all right, 1:23:23.280 --> 1:23:27.520 Mayor Emmanuel. 1:23:28.200 --> 1:23:30.760 I think their hope was that Jesse would just like 1:23:31.040 --> 1:23:36.040 shut up. Yeah, but he treats it like he's been vindicated. 1:23:35.560 --> 1:23:37.679 Yeah, because they dropped the charges and he's like, see, 1:23:37.760 --> 1:23:38.160 I did it. 1:23:38.520 --> 1:23:42.840 He's like, I've been vindicated. This is proof I didn't 1:23:43.000 --> 1:23:46.920 do it. YadA, YadA, YadA. Really rubs everyone the wrong way. 1:23:47.479 --> 1:23:50.400 He's he's like, I've been cleared, I've been redeemed. 1:23:50.720 --> 1:23:53.519 And you know what, I also will say for him 1:23:53.600 --> 1:23:56.479 being like, Okay, so the cops couldn't catch the white 1:23:56.479 --> 1:23:59.559 people who did this. You mean the Chicago PD couldn't 1:23:59.600 --> 1:24:03.320 catch the people who did the crime. Yeah, sounds about right. 1:24:03.640 --> 1:24:06.799 Yeah. So he's still written out of empire. 1:24:07.040 --> 1:24:07.960 Yeah. 1:24:08.080 --> 1:24:12.599 Trump is really mad because he had blamed Maga. Yeah, 1:24:12.600 --> 1:24:15.280 and so he's like, Jesse's racist against white people. 1:24:15.760 --> 1:24:17.479 See, this is the thing that makes it worse. 1:24:17.840 --> 1:24:22.400 Yeah. The FBI has decided to look into this whole 1:24:22.479 --> 1:24:23.599 charges drop situation. 1:24:23.840 --> 1:24:24.600 Yeah. 1:24:24.760 --> 1:24:26.800 His lawyer is like, great, now it's a federal case. 1:24:26.840 --> 1:24:31.080 He's being double victimized. And at the end of twenty nineteen, 1:24:31.920 --> 1:24:35.840 Lori Lightfoot takes over for Rob Emmanuel and fires Eddie 1:24:35.920 --> 1:24:38.519 Johnson for drinking on the job and lying about it. 1:24:40.040 --> 1:24:43.520 So things are going great in Chicago. 1:24:44.360 --> 1:24:46.479 Yeah, things are always going great with Chicago p D. 1:24:46.760 --> 1:24:50.360 Yeah. A special prosecutor charges him with six counts of 1:24:50.400 --> 1:24:51.400 disorderly conduct. 1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:54.880 That again also seems like they weren't quite sure what 1:24:55.040 --> 1:24:56.880 crime to charge him with, because like you're like, is 1:24:56.920 --> 1:24:58.640 that disorderly conduct? 1:24:59.360 --> 1:25:02.519 Yeah, because you like waste the police's time. I don't like. 1:25:02.960 --> 1:25:04.400 I guess yeah, I'm not a lawyer. 1:25:04.439 --> 1:25:05.160 I'm not a lawyer. 1:25:05.320 --> 1:25:08.599 I mean I am, but I'm not. He goes to trial. 1:25:08.960 --> 1:25:11.240 He go, Okay, now he goes See, I was so 1:25:11.360 --> 1:25:12.920 checked out. I didn't know this happened. 1:25:13.240 --> 1:25:15.120 This was now we're like in the pandemic. 1:25:15.200 --> 1:25:18.240 Okay, so we were worrying about other things. We all 1:25:18.320 --> 1:25:18.920 kind of moved on. 1:25:19.120 --> 1:25:21.559 Yes. In one of the documentaries I watched, they're like, 1:25:21.920 --> 1:25:24.880 this was Chicago's OJ trial, And I'm like, I don't 1:25:24.920 --> 1:25:27.960 think anyone was paying nearly that much at time. No. 1:25:28.160 --> 1:25:29.960 The thing about the OJ trial is people cared. 1:25:30.120 --> 1:25:35.240 Yeah. The lawyers have a new strategy his lawyers, which 1:25:35.240 --> 1:25:36.800 is that they say that the brothers did it because 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:37.720 they were homophobic. 1:25:37.960 --> 1:25:42.200 It is interesting again, given that there's so much security 1:25:42.200 --> 1:25:45.040 camera footage that you're like, Yeah, if there was another 1:25:45.080 --> 1:25:47.920 person in this area, we would or another two people 1:25:47.920 --> 1:25:49.760 in this area, we would have seen them. These are 1:25:49.800 --> 1:25:51.400 the only two people in this area. 1:25:51.760 --> 1:25:54.280 Yeah. Yeah, And it's all really dark, you can't see 1:25:54.280 --> 1:25:56.320 the face of anyone at all. Yeah. 1:25:56.360 --> 1:25:58.519 So again it makes sense as a defense where you're like, 1:25:58.640 --> 1:25:59.960 I guess these were the two people. 1:26:00.400 --> 1:26:03.040 The jury does not go for this, and he is 1:26:03.160 --> 1:26:06.720 convicted on five of the six counts. Wow. By now 1:26:06.720 --> 1:26:11.080 it's twenty twenty two. The officer who killed Laqwan MacDonald 1:26:11.120 --> 1:26:13.519 has just gotten out of prison early for good behavior. 1:26:13.640 --> 1:26:16.160 Oh great, he served less than half of his sentence. 1:26:17.120 --> 1:26:19.640 So is the Chicago legal system trying to make an 1:26:19.640 --> 1:26:21.440 example out of Jesse as a distraction? 1:26:23.320 --> 1:26:25.280 Oh possible, because. 1:26:25.080 --> 1:26:27.840 It makes law enforcement look competent and reminds people not 1:26:27.960 --> 1:26:30.240 to believe everything that sounds really bad. I don't know. 1:26:30.760 --> 1:26:34.760 It also kind of feels like like maybe it's not 1:26:34.880 --> 1:26:37.040 that mastermindy, but it is convenient. 1:26:37.800 --> 1:26:42.040 That's where I land. I think that they would manipulate 1:26:42.280 --> 1:26:47.879 the courts at this point. La Quan MacDonald was murdered 1:26:48.240 --> 1:26:50.880 eight years ago, so I'm not sure that they are 1:26:51.160 --> 1:26:52.440 falsifying evidence. 1:26:52.680 --> 1:26:55.680 And it was a jury trial for Jesse, right, it 1:26:55.720 --> 1:26:58.200 was a jury Yes. Yeah, I'm not. 1:26:58.120 --> 1:27:01.040 Sure that they're making up evidence in the Jesse case 1:27:01.120 --> 1:27:03.559 to cover up what happened with Lakwan. But I'm sure 1:27:03.600 --> 1:27:07.880 they're I don't know, throwing extra resources at the I 1:27:07.880 --> 1:27:10.120 would believe that they're throwing extra resources at the case. 1:27:10.200 --> 1:27:13.519 Yeah, they want to at least not humiliate themselves at 1:27:13.520 --> 1:27:14.400 this point. 1:27:14.800 --> 1:27:17.320 Yeah, they're in it to win it. One month later 1:27:17.439 --> 1:27:21.880 is Jesse's sentencing. So his supporters, including the Reverend Jesse 1:27:22.000 --> 1:27:24.519 Jackson and the actor Samuel L. Jackson, who are not 1:27:24.600 --> 1:27:27.479 related despite having the same one's name. I mean, I 1:27:27.560 --> 1:27:30.120 knew that, but I thought that was funny, write letters 1:27:30.120 --> 1:27:33.519 to the judge asking for leniency and sentencing. They point 1:27:33.520 --> 1:27:35.759 out that people who are convicted of class four felonies 1:27:35.760 --> 1:27:38.280 often don't serve any jail time, and they find other 1:27:38.320 --> 1:27:40.719 ways to serve their sentences like house arrest or community 1:27:40.760 --> 1:27:42.640 service or you know, you can check in with a 1:27:42.640 --> 1:27:45.920 parole officer, do weekend jail. Basically, they say, listen, this 1:27:46.000 --> 1:27:48.160 kid is famous, black, gay and had a Jewish dad. 1:27:48.200 --> 1:27:50.160 He's going to be a target in prison, and he 1:27:50.200 --> 1:27:52.360 has already suffered a lot. It would be very reasonable 1:27:52.400 --> 1:27:55.839 for you to find an alternative. The white male judge 1:27:55.880 --> 1:27:59.599 is not having it. He orders Jesse to pay over 1:27:59.600 --> 1:28:03.040 a hundred one thousand dollars in restitution twenty five thousand 1:28:03.080 --> 1:28:04.360 dollars in fines. 1:28:04.040 --> 1:28:06.439 But he already paid thirty five hundred dollars for the crime. 1:28:08.320 --> 1:28:10.519 He's like, Jesse, you are a liar and a pretender 1:28:10.560 --> 1:28:13.960 and a charlatan. Oof. You are getting thirty months probation 1:28:14.240 --> 1:28:16.519 and one hundred and fifty days in jail starting now. 1:28:16.840 --> 1:28:19.280 Wow, did they ever get his phone? 1:28:20.040 --> 1:28:22.080 Jesse's yeah, I don't know. 1:28:22.160 --> 1:28:24.439 Because I am curious whether they like could I mean, 1:28:24.439 --> 1:28:27.599 I guess they got the texts from the brothers. Yeah, 1:28:27.680 --> 1:28:28.719 it's just very interesting. 1:28:28.800 --> 1:28:30.639 There's no other smoking gun texts. 1:28:30.720 --> 1:28:30.960 Yeah. 1:28:31.680 --> 1:28:35.360 Jesse stands up in court and he yells out your honor, 1:28:35.400 --> 1:28:37.840 I respect you, but I did not do this. And 1:28:37.920 --> 1:28:40.360 as he's being led out of the courtroom, he turns 1:28:40.400 --> 1:28:42.320 and he yells, I am not suicidal. 1:28:43.200 --> 1:28:46.600 Oh interesting. They think they're going to kill him to 1:28:46.640 --> 1:28:48.600 quiet him. He thinks they're going to kill him to 1:28:48.680 --> 1:28:49.120 quiet him. 1:28:49.160 --> 1:28:51.599 He thinks that there's a chance that something will happen 1:28:51.680 --> 1:28:54.760 to him, that like, he could get into a fight 1:28:54.840 --> 1:28:58.680 in jail, and that the cops will be so embarrassed 1:28:58.800 --> 1:29:01.559 that they'll say that it was sue Yeah. Just like 1:29:01.640 --> 1:29:03.720 if he dies for whatever reason in jail, that the 1:29:03.720 --> 1:29:05.960 cops will be so embarrassed that they let this happen 1:29:05.960 --> 1:29:08.519 in him that they'll say it was suicide to cover 1:29:08.560 --> 1:29:12.160 it up. And or this guy is so messy and 1:29:12.240 --> 1:29:15.720 lives for attention and drama. Sure, he gets out on 1:29:15.760 --> 1:29:19.080 appeal six days later. Oh great, Yeah, so he's granted 1:29:19.080 --> 1:29:23.160 an appeal and he makes bail and so yeah, in 1:29:23.200 --> 1:29:26.040 October twenty twenty three, he goes to an outpatient rehab. 1:29:27.920 --> 1:29:31.839 In November twenty twenty four, the appeal is still happening, 1:29:31.920 --> 1:29:37.160 and the Illinois State Supreme Court overrules the entire second 1:29:37.320 --> 1:29:42.960 trial and conviction because the state had originally agreed to 1:29:43.040 --> 1:29:45.720 drop the charges in exchange for community service and the 1:29:45.760 --> 1:29:48.360 ten thousand dollars bond, and since he held up his 1:29:48.479 --> 1:29:50.479 end of the bargain, they have to hold up theirs. 1:29:50.600 --> 1:29:50.800 Yeah. 1:29:50.840 --> 1:29:53.800 So it's basically the double jeopardy principle, which is that 1:29:53.840 --> 1:29:56.799 you can't try a person for the same crime crime twice, 1:29:57.120 --> 1:29:59.360 so expanding on that, if you agree not to try 1:29:59.360 --> 1:30:02.479 a person, you can undo that deal. You already made 1:30:02.479 --> 1:30:04.120 a deal on whatever crime you think they did. 1:30:04.240 --> 1:30:04.479 Fair. 1:30:04.960 --> 1:30:07.160 While all of this has been going on, Chicago has 1:30:07.200 --> 1:30:10.519 been suing Jesse for the cost of the investigation, okay, 1:30:10.560 --> 1:30:13.840 and Jesse has been countersuing the City of Chicago. This 1:30:13.920 --> 1:30:16.200 part of the case doesn't wrap up until May twenty 1:30:16.240 --> 1:30:20.400 twenty five. Oh so messy. Jesse donates fifty thousand dollars 1:30:20.400 --> 1:30:23.400 to a charity and that settles it. So great job everybody. 1:30:23.400 --> 1:30:24.959 This is an awesome use of the courts. 1:30:25.360 --> 1:30:28.719 You know what a charity have fifty thousand dollars. That's good. Yeah, 1:30:28.760 --> 1:30:33.360 I'm happy about that. I can't believe how many trials 1:30:33.400 --> 1:30:35.599 this took. Yeah, and I was just talking about how 1:30:35.600 --> 1:30:38.160 all the trials were for hoaxes were back in the 1:30:38.240 --> 1:30:40.600 seventeen hundreds. I was wrong about that. 1:30:41.360 --> 1:30:43.719 For the last few years, Jesse has been working a little. 1:30:43.800 --> 1:30:46.320 He directed a couple of movies, he made another album, 1:30:46.400 --> 1:30:50.080 He was on a reality show, He goes to events sometimes. 1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:52.760 He talked about the incident on two podcasts, and last 1:30:52.840 --> 1:30:56.439 year he participated in a Netflix documentary. 1:30:56.040 --> 1:30:59.000 See That's what's interesting to me, because whatever I mean, 1:30:59.040 --> 1:31:00.840 I guess he needs to kind of maintained that it 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:04.400 actually happened. But if I were Jussy or his publicist 1:31:04.479 --> 1:31:08.120 or his creative manager, I would say just say that's 1:31:08.120 --> 1:31:10.479 in the past. I don't want to talk about that anymore. 1:31:10.720 --> 1:31:13.360 I want to talk about moving forward. This was one 1:31:13.479 --> 1:31:19.360 night ten almost ten years ago, twenty nineteen, twenty nine, okay, 1:31:19.439 --> 1:31:22.719 almost seven years ago. This was one night, seven years ago. 1:31:23.200 --> 1:31:24.880 I just want to move forward with my life. 1:31:24.960 --> 1:31:28.440 I think he'll start saying that soon. Yeah. The documentary 1:31:28.479 --> 1:31:33.040 is interesting. It goes through the whole thing without ever 1:31:33.120 --> 1:31:35.240 mentioning the bleach like. 1:31:35.240 --> 1:31:37.879 Bleach that was found on his sweater. Yeah, your jacket, 1:31:38.240 --> 1:31:41.400 that's just like not part of it. Like they just 1:31:41.560 --> 1:31:44.320 that's not part of the evidence anymore. Interesting. 1:31:44.800 --> 1:31:46.960 The documentary makes a lot out of this one bit 1:31:47.040 --> 1:31:47.960 of security footage. 1:31:48.040 --> 1:31:51.960 Is a documentary pro or anti Jussy or pretty middle balanced. 1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:56.240 It tries to present itself as balanced, but it is 1:31:56.640 --> 1:32:00.599 kind of pro Jussy, okay, because it makes a lot 1:32:00.680 --> 1:32:05.200 out of the like very little Projessy evidence evidence that 1:32:05.320 --> 1:32:06.719 like is actually quite weak. 1:32:06.880 --> 1:32:07.240 Okay. 1:32:08.120 --> 1:32:09.640 It makes a lot out of this one bit of 1:32:09.680 --> 1:32:13.080 security footage that seems to show one of the two 1:32:13.120 --> 1:32:16.960 like figures stepping into some light and maybe having lighter 1:32:17.000 --> 1:32:21.599 skin than the Osendaro brothers. But like it's very grainy 1:32:22.040 --> 1:32:26.000 and it's not high quality footage, and like there's just 1:32:26.080 --> 1:32:32.400 really nothing to suggest that that actually is like correctly colored. 1:32:32.280 --> 1:32:35.599 And we actually have actual evidence that these brothers took 1:32:35.640 --> 1:32:38.280 this uber and tab, like we know they did come 1:32:38.280 --> 1:32:39.080 to this area. 1:32:39.520 --> 1:32:44.720 Yeah, so like until someone explains what else they were 1:32:44.760 --> 1:32:48.880 doing in that area, it really isn't. 1:32:49.080 --> 1:32:51.360 And it does not seem from the footage that I'm 1:32:51.360 --> 1:32:55.000 sure the police combed through that other people, another pair 1:32:55.040 --> 1:32:56.320 of people were in this area. 1:32:56.720 --> 1:33:00.519 Well, so they find these two witnesses, Okay, one of 1:33:00.520 --> 1:33:03.960 them was a doorman at the Sheraton and saw a 1:33:04.000 --> 1:33:07.840 white guy in a ski mask running oh at the 1:33:08.040 --> 1:33:14.559 time of the incident, and there is security footage that 1:33:14.600 --> 1:33:21.880 would maybe corroborate thish and some of the security footage 1:33:22.000 --> 1:33:27.280 is missing. Interesting, and we know from the Lakwan MacDonald 1:33:27.360 --> 1:33:30.599 case that the cops have the ability to like cover 1:33:30.680 --> 1:33:36.559 their tracks deleting footage. Yeah, but I've also seen people 1:33:36.600 --> 1:33:40.320 say that like hotel security cameras like they have lag 1:33:40.640 --> 1:33:43.680 like they had like they don't record, you know, they 1:33:43.720 --> 1:33:46.200 just sort of take snapshots. Yeah, so like this is 1:33:46.240 --> 1:33:48.160 maybe not quite a smoking gun. 1:33:48.680 --> 1:33:52.840 And also it would be difficult to identify someone's race 1:33:52.960 --> 1:33:55.200 in a ski mask running past you at two in 1:33:55.280 --> 1:33:57.880 the morning, when presumably the doorman was inside. 1:33:58.680 --> 1:34:01.240 I think he would he he says that he like 1:34:01.360 --> 1:34:04.559 shone his flashlight in the guy's face. I mean, I 1:34:04.560 --> 1:34:07.320 don't know why this guy would lie. He's black guy. Yeah, 1:34:07.800 --> 1:34:12.000 so maybe he was running. I don't think he was running, 1:34:12.040 --> 1:34:13.360 saying I just did a hate crime. 1:34:13.520 --> 1:34:19.720 Yeah, but okay. 1:34:19.880 --> 1:34:23.280 There's also a woman who lived in Jesse's building who 1:34:23.280 --> 1:34:27.840 says that she took her dog out to pee at midnight, 1:34:28.960 --> 1:34:32.280 who says that she saw a white man like standing 1:34:32.280 --> 1:34:34.880 on the corner with like a bit of rope in 1:34:34.920 --> 1:34:36.960 his like coming out of his pocket. 1:34:37.080 --> 1:34:37.840 Oh. 1:34:37.920 --> 1:34:43.800 Suspicious, very suspicious. But also like, okay, so he stood 1:34:43.840 --> 1:34:47.080 there for two hours in negative twenty degrees. 1:34:47.520 --> 1:34:48.080 Yeah. 1:34:48.160 --> 1:34:50.760 I mean, but again, if you're like fueled by the 1:34:50.800 --> 1:34:54.080 fire of racism, I guess it keeps you warm. 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:57.759 It also is it's tricky because you're like, on one hand, 1:34:57.880 --> 1:35:01.599 the Chicago Pead would have win this crime was told 1:35:01.600 --> 1:35:04.479 to them would have wanted to do everything to solve 1:35:04.560 --> 1:35:08.040 it right away. But if they couldn't and could only 1:35:08.160 --> 1:35:12.640 link the Nigerian brothers, then they would would want to 1:35:12.640 --> 1:35:14.640 cover their tracks to not be embarrassed. 1:35:14.960 --> 1:35:17.439 I mean, I can imagine a situation where they find 1:35:17.439 --> 1:35:22.120 the Ausendaro brothers, get a confession and then just stop looking. Yeah, 1:35:22.200 --> 1:35:25.320 like they're just like, oh, other witnesses came forward, whatever, 1:35:25.439 --> 1:35:28.040 we don't want to interview them. Yeah, the Ausendaro brothers 1:35:28.040 --> 1:35:30.960 have released a book, They've gone on Fox News, they 1:35:30.960 --> 1:35:34.680 have a podcast about what they did. Like they're obviously 1:35:34.960 --> 1:35:38.439 out for money and attention too. Like they're not, you know, 1:35:38.640 --> 1:35:43.640 unbiased in their recollection of things. Yeah, they're not necessarily 1:35:44.040 --> 1:35:48.200 trustworthy narrators. But let's get into it. Let's get into 1:35:48.240 --> 1:35:54.400 the theories. The best way that I can describe looking 1:35:54.479 --> 1:35:59.680 into this in like a normal hoax, I feel like 1:36:00.680 --> 1:36:04.479 one side says, Okay, here's here's my story. My story 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:07.479 is red, and then the other side says, well, my 1:36:07.520 --> 1:36:09.720 story is blue, and then we talk it through and 1:36:09.760 --> 1:36:12.640 we find okay, well the story is mostly blue, but 1:36:12.680 --> 1:36:16.599 it's a little purple. And then we do another hoax 1:36:16.840 --> 1:36:19.920 and it's like one side says, okay, well my story 1:36:20.000 --> 1:36:23.160 is one, and the other side says, well, my story 1:36:23.240 --> 1:36:24.880 is five, and then we talk it through and I 1:36:24.920 --> 1:36:29.200 find out, okay, well it's actually four, you know, and 1:36:29.240 --> 1:36:31.920 we like find the middle ground. Yeah, And in this 1:36:32.040 --> 1:36:35.280 it's like, well, one side says it's green and the 1:36:35.320 --> 1:36:37.760 other side says it's seven, and I don't know how 1:36:37.800 --> 1:36:39.960 to find the middle ground between green and seven. 1:36:40.040 --> 1:36:43.920 Well, because the most generous, too, JUSSI, is even if 1:36:44.400 --> 1:36:47.920 details are suspicious, there's a version of this where he 1:36:48.200 --> 1:36:51.479 was attacked and you know, he was walking home and 1:36:51.520 --> 1:36:53.640 he was the victim of a hate crime or not, 1:36:53.880 --> 1:36:56.960 or just a random act of violence, and he maybe 1:36:57.000 --> 1:37:02.080 for attention, maybe believed it fabricated a version that was 1:37:02.680 --> 1:37:05.200 with more emphasis on that it was a hate crime 1:37:05.240 --> 1:37:08.200 against him, that it was you know, because he was 1:37:08.240 --> 1:37:10.000 gay and because he was black, and because he was 1:37:10.000 --> 1:37:13.160 on Empire. And that's a version where you're like, and 1:37:13.200 --> 1:37:16.200 then he told details to the police that were a 1:37:16.240 --> 1:37:19.040 little exaggerated, but he was attacked and a victim of 1:37:19.080 --> 1:37:20.639 random violence or but. 1:37:20.680 --> 1:37:24.280 He somehow would have had to have a noose with him, 1:37:24.560 --> 1:37:27.439 because there's security footage of him getting home with the 1:37:27.479 --> 1:37:28.479 noose around his neck. 1:37:28.640 --> 1:37:30.439 He didn't take it off before he got home. 1:37:30.880 --> 1:37:34.320 He walked into the lobby with the noose around his neck. 1:37:34.360 --> 1:37:37.920 Oh yeah, he didn't notice somehow, well he had it. 1:37:38.040 --> 1:37:42.240 I'm just saying he had it on. I'm like, when 1:37:42.280 --> 1:37:45.240 he left to go to go get some food, he 1:37:45.360 --> 1:37:47.719 didn't have the noose on, and when he came back 1:37:47.880 --> 1:37:51.479 he had the noose on. So his attackers must have 1:37:51.720 --> 1:37:55.720 had a racial component or he had the rope with him. 1:37:55.800 --> 1:37:59.040 Well, so that is the evidence against this' like he 1:37:59.160 --> 1:38:00.439 was the victim of a rain in an act of 1:38:00.479 --> 1:38:03.360 violence and then exaggerated yeah, because it's like, well, you 1:38:03.400 --> 1:38:05.439 can't there was a prop. There was a prop. There 1:38:05.479 --> 1:38:08.320 was planning involved, So did he plan this or did 1:38:08.320 --> 1:38:09.360 someone else plan this? 1:38:09.520 --> 1:38:14.000 Right? So okay, so neither version makes sense. 1:38:14.120 --> 1:38:16.000 The problem is he just went too far. If he 1:38:16.040 --> 1:38:18.040 didn't have a prop, people would have believed him. 1:38:18.280 --> 1:38:20.320 Like why would a racist know where he was and 1:38:20.320 --> 1:38:23.080 wait outside nepolar vortex only to lightly beat him up, 1:38:23.200 --> 1:38:25.920 but also have props? But also why would he fake 1:38:25.960 --> 1:38:26.519 it so poorly? 1:38:26.800 --> 1:38:28.840 Yeah, he thought he would get it. I mean, the 1:38:28.960 --> 1:38:30.800 answer to why would he fake it so poorly? Is 1:38:30.840 --> 1:38:32.960 he's a celebrity who thought he would get away with it. 1:38:34.120 --> 1:38:39.880 Jesse, in an interview with Variety, said that basically all 1:38:40.000 --> 1:38:44.600 of the like inconsistencies are to further cover up what 1:38:44.720 --> 1:38:46.920 happened with Lakwan McDonald. 1:38:47.400 --> 1:38:49.920 Oh don't that's that's This is the part that I 1:38:50.040 --> 1:38:52.320 like don't want to be on Jesse's side because I'm like, 1:38:52.479 --> 1:38:55.719 don't use this horrific tragedy of a boy who was murdered. 1:38:56.360 --> 1:38:59.320 Yeah, he sort of just suggests it, Okay, he's like, 1:39:00.160 --> 1:39:02.160 and he just sort of ties it together to just 1:39:02.200 --> 1:39:05.120 sort of cast out on the Chicago PD. He's like, well, 1:39:05.160 --> 1:39:08.840 all this stuff about how corrupt the Chicago PD was 1:39:09.320 --> 1:39:12.640 coming out, so that's why they kept doing all this 1:39:12.720 --> 1:39:16.360 stuff to keep my trial in the news and keep 1:39:16.400 --> 1:39:21.000 my trial going, Which, like, yeah, it's icky. He just 1:39:21.040 --> 1:39:23.800 wants to smear the Chicago PD. But like, I'm not 1:39:23.840 --> 1:39:25.679 going to sit here and ride for the Chicago PD. 1:39:25.800 --> 1:39:30.120 But like, I don't necessarily disagree that they would use 1:39:30.880 --> 1:39:34.040 his trial to like cover their misdeeds. But I don't 1:39:34.080 --> 1:39:36.639 think that doesn't mean that they've just followed the evidence. 1:39:36.760 --> 1:39:40.439 That's the double side of it. The thing that's true 1:39:40.479 --> 1:39:44.439 which is that the Chicago PD absolutely would have taken 1:39:44.479 --> 1:39:48.559 advantage of this trial to make themselves look better. Yeah, 1:39:48.600 --> 1:39:51.599 and that doesn't necessarily mean they were fully lying. Maybe 1:39:51.640 --> 1:39:54.920 they were just taking advantage of this situation where they're like, oh, great, 1:39:55.000 --> 1:39:58.360 a celebrity that we can make look dumb and look stupid, 1:39:58.400 --> 1:40:01.360 and we can like because he you know, they just 1:40:01.400 --> 1:40:04.479 fell fell in their laps. Yeah, of course they would 1:40:04.479 --> 1:40:05.320 take advantage of it. 1:40:05.720 --> 1:40:08.599 So I came up with like ten theories. Ten theories 1:40:09.600 --> 1:40:12.799 that I have ordered from Jesse innocent to Jesse guilty. 1:40:13.000 --> 1:40:15.640 Great, I am so excited. I can't believe you. I 1:40:15.720 --> 1:40:18.680 can't even think of ten theories. I mean, I have 1:40:19.080 --> 1:40:21.720 two theories, but please please. 1:40:22.280 --> 1:40:25.439 Number one, it happened exactly as Jesse said it did. Yeah, 1:40:25.600 --> 1:40:28.080 sometimes just things are crazy, things are crazy, and just 1:40:28.240 --> 1:40:30.960 we just don't have all the information, just like somehow. 1:40:30.920 --> 1:40:34.720 Somehow, Look, these people were out to try to do a. 1:40:34.720 --> 1:40:38.720 Hate crime, Like I don't know how racists think. Yeah, 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:40.880 they thought it was worth it to stand out there 1:40:40.880 --> 1:40:44.400 in the hold. Yeah, whatever, there's security footage can Lie 1:40:44.560 --> 1:40:46.560 and the brothers had a different reason for being in 1:40:46.600 --> 1:40:47.400 the area. 1:40:47.560 --> 1:40:50.760 The brothers were selling him weed maybe Yeah, who knows 1:40:51.479 --> 1:40:52.040 it happened. 1:40:52.479 --> 1:40:56.160 It happened, Number two, It happened similar to how he 1:40:56.200 --> 1:40:59.760 said it did. But like things he exaggerated, like they 1:40:59.760 --> 1:41:04.120 didn't actually yell what he said they yelled, And maybe 1:41:04.120 --> 1:41:06.920 it wasn't two guys, it was just one guy. And 1:41:06.960 --> 1:41:09.240 that's why they can't find it on the security footage 1:41:09.280 --> 1:41:13.160 because he like he wanted to seem tougher, so he 1:41:13.160 --> 1:41:15.640 said it was two guys because he didn't want to 1:41:15.720 --> 1:41:18.040 admit he lost a fight to one guy. And that's 1:41:18.080 --> 1:41:19.880 why they couldn't find on securit footage because they were 1:41:19.880 --> 1:41:21.639 looking for two guys. He was actually one guy. 1:41:22.000 --> 1:41:24.120 That is a slightly more plausible version. 1:41:24.280 --> 1:41:29.120 Yeah, someone else paid white guys to do this, or 1:41:29.160 --> 1:41:32.280 like some like white guys did this and then had 1:41:32.320 --> 1:41:35.720 Ola and Bola take the fall for it. Oh okay, 1:41:35.840 --> 1:41:40.400 someone else had Ola and Bola do this, and that's 1:41:40.439 --> 1:41:41.519 why Jesse's confused. 1:41:41.640 --> 1:41:44.639 Yeah, he wasn't involved in on although they you think 1:41:44.640 --> 1:41:46.639 they would confess to someone else telling them. 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:48.559 To do this. They're like scared of that person. Oh 1:41:48.640 --> 1:41:52.080 sure he's paying he's paying them. Still, Yeah, to say 1:41:52.080 --> 1:41:55.960 it was Jesse, it was someone else's idea. Who set 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:58.200 it all up. But Jesse was in on it, and 1:41:58.240 --> 1:42:01.320 that's why it all sounds so screwy. Sure, that's why 1:42:01.360 --> 1:42:04.120 there's like weird missing texts and like the plan is 1:42:04.160 --> 1:42:06.800 so bad because they were like delayed flights and like 1:42:07.040 --> 1:42:09.080 it was just like a bad plan because maybe someone 1:42:09.120 --> 1:42:10.920 who wasn't in Chicago and didn't know about the weather. 1:42:11.040 --> 1:42:13.200 Like it was just like a bad plan with miscommunication. 1:42:13.240 --> 1:42:17.880 I mean that's he does have a creative director, and 1:42:17.920 --> 1:42:19.360 that's why it was like unclear whether or not they 1:42:19.360 --> 1:42:20.320 were going to call the cops. 1:42:20.520 --> 1:42:24.080 Yeah, yeah, not fully thought that Number Sixesse had a 1:42:24.080 --> 1:42:27.600 mental health crisis and genuinely doesn't remember telling them to 1:42:27.640 --> 1:42:31.479 do this. Oh yeah, Number seven he got the threatening 1:42:31.560 --> 1:42:33.880 letter and wanted the studio to pay for him to 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:36.800 have security, So he planned the attack out of a 1:42:36.880 --> 1:42:40.439 legitimate fear of violence. Yeah, and it was just like 1:42:40.479 --> 1:42:42.720 a last minute thing, and that's why it's like such 1:42:42.720 --> 1:42:43.280 a bad plan. 1:42:43.400 --> 1:42:46.240 At any point, did he ask for security or did 1:42:46.280 --> 1:42:48.840 this because I wonder or either way, I mean, if 1:42:48.880 --> 1:42:50.519 he felt like he was threatened, he wanted to be 1:42:50.560 --> 1:42:51.599 like see it's serious. 1:42:51.720 --> 1:42:55.920 Yeah, yeah, he had a legitimate fear and so he 1:42:56.000 --> 1:42:58.559 sent himself the letter. Yeah, And so he wanted the 1:42:58.560 --> 1:43:01.639 studio to pay for security, and so he sent themselves 1:43:01.640 --> 1:43:04.559 the letter. And then when that didn't work, then he 1:43:04.640 --> 1:43:06.800 did this plan and it was all very last minute, 1:43:06.840 --> 1:43:10.120 and that's why such a bad plan. Yeah number nine. 1:43:10.200 --> 1:43:13.760 After years of experiencing the kind of racism and homophobia 1:43:13.800 --> 1:43:16.679 that is too settled to fight aggressively but still wears 1:43:16.720 --> 1:43:20.000 away at the soul, Jesse found himself famously black and 1:43:20.000 --> 1:43:23.280 famously gay, and benefiting from privilege, yet full of rage 1:43:23.560 --> 1:43:25.400 at a time when it seemed that victims were their 1:43:25.439 --> 1:43:27.960 own breed of celebrity. He wanted to make his inner 1:43:27.960 --> 1:43:31.040 wounds visible to the outside world. He wanted to engage 1:43:31.040 --> 1:43:33.439 meaningfully in civil rights work the way his mother had, 1:43:33.640 --> 1:43:35.839 but growing up on set had given him a distorted 1:43:35.920 --> 1:43:39.000 view of the line between reality and fiction. Stressed and 1:43:39.080 --> 1:43:41.240 exhausted by his job, he came up with a plan that, 1:43:41.400 --> 1:43:43.720 in his mind, would give him a platform from which 1:43:43.760 --> 1:43:46.639 to speak about things that mattered, staging a quote unquote 1:43:46.640 --> 1:43:50.200 real incident that wouldn't actually hurt anyone. He just wanted attention, 1:43:50.320 --> 1:43:52.360 and never meant to get the cops involved, but by 1:43:52.360 --> 1:43:54.479 that time it was too late, and as the case 1:43:54.479 --> 1:43:56.719 spent out of control, all he could do was stick 1:43:56.760 --> 1:43:58.600 to his story, even as it made him look, for 1:43:58.720 --> 1:44:01.519 lack of a better word, bug, that's bananas, Lizzie. 1:44:01.520 --> 1:44:04.720 That is incredibly well said. And you know what, I 1:44:04.760 --> 1:44:09.080 can also see in someone's misguided head, as you said, 1:44:09.120 --> 1:44:13.800 making internal, very legitimate wounds external him being like, this 1:44:13.840 --> 1:44:16.599 will be a platform for good, right, Like. 1:44:16.760 --> 1:44:19.639 Maybe people have shouted that at him in the past. Yeah, 1:44:19.680 --> 1:44:22.519 and he just never complained about it because he didn't 1:44:22.520 --> 1:44:25.120 want to be a rich celebrity complaining. But he's like, no, 1:44:25.160 --> 1:44:28.320 I'm gonna talk about how I've people have shouted this 1:44:28.360 --> 1:44:31.960 at me. Yeah. Number ten. While the country faced a 1:44:32.040 --> 1:44:35.400 racial reckoning, Smollet callously and maliciously sought to capture the 1:44:35.880 --> 1:44:38.759 zeitgeist for his own selfish aims, banking on the public's 1:44:38.800 --> 1:44:41.519 sympathy to prop up a stalled career instead of doing 1:44:41.520 --> 1:44:43.519 what every other hack in Hollywood knows you have to do, 1:44:43.800 --> 1:44:45.400 skip the shortcuts and put in the work. 1:44:46.960 --> 1:44:49.439 Yeah. I think it's probably I'm gonna say, I'm gonna 1:44:49.439 --> 1:44:52.200 hope nine. Yeah, that's where I land Danish Swartz. 1:44:52.880 --> 1:44:55.280 All right, this is our last section. Are you ready? 1:44:55.280 --> 1:44:58.080 For my hot take. Yeah. I don't even know if 1:44:58.120 --> 1:45:00.720 I believe in this hot take, but this is my 1:45:00.840 --> 1:45:01.599 hot hot. 1:45:01.920 --> 1:45:04.640 That's kind of hot take, one that you can't fully defend. 1:45:05.000 --> 1:45:07.720 In the fullness of time with hindsight. 1:45:07.880 --> 1:45:09.080 Yeah, this is not. 1:45:09.960 --> 1:45:10.840 That big of a deal. 1:45:11.280 --> 1:45:14.680 Yeah, I mean, the thing is no one, no one 1:45:14.720 --> 1:45:16.360 except him, got hurt. 1:45:17.439 --> 1:45:20.480 I think the response at the time was correct, Yeah, 1:45:20.760 --> 1:45:25.000 because the response to the incident was a huge what 1:45:25.040 --> 1:45:27.680 the fuck? Because that is the correct response. Yeah, and 1:45:27.720 --> 1:45:29.800 then the response to the revelation that it was a 1:45:29.840 --> 1:45:33.040 hoax was a huge what the fuck? Also correct. Yeah, 1:45:33.120 --> 1:45:35.160 but as you said, I think there was a very 1:45:35.240 --> 1:45:38.759 big I think people were nervous that future hate crimes 1:45:38.800 --> 1:45:42.879 would be not believed. Yeah, I am not an expert. 1:45:43.600 --> 1:45:45.559 I don't know that that has come to pass. 1:45:45.720 --> 1:45:48.519 I actually agree with you. I think because he is 1:45:48.720 --> 1:45:53.240 a celebrity that maybe actually makes it more ridiculous as 1:45:53.400 --> 1:45:55.200 a as a circus exhibit. 1:45:55.360 --> 1:45:58.200 It's just a bizarre it's a bizarre what happened. Yeah, 1:45:58.680 --> 1:46:01.920 like people, I mean, granted there were video, but like 1:46:02.439 --> 1:46:06.480 people believe and understand even if they have different reactions 1:46:06.479 --> 1:46:10.880 to it. People don't think that George Floyd's death was faked. Yeah, 1:46:10.920 --> 1:46:14.400 people don't believe that Breonna Taylor's death was fit. Like 1:46:16.320 --> 1:46:19.960 it's so bizarre that it goes outside the realm of 1:46:20.479 --> 1:46:25.719 hate crime stories and into the realm of strange celebrity things. Yes, 1:46:26.040 --> 1:46:30.040 I don't know that people are being accused of Jesse smolletting. 1:46:30.439 --> 1:46:33.920 The only thing that I would say is a consequence. 1:46:33.960 --> 1:46:36.880 But I would argue is not his fault. Is just 1:46:37.280 --> 1:46:42.040 the rapaciousness of like the Maga far right movement. Is 1:46:42.080 --> 1:46:46.360 it makes like wokeness look silly. Yeah, but they would 1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:49.719 take advantage of anything to try to make wokeness look silly. 1:46:50.280 --> 1:46:53.360 Yeah, And and correct me if I'm wrong. If other 1:46:53.400 --> 1:46:57.439 people aren't being believed as a result, that that's horrible 1:46:57.520 --> 1:47:02.080 and I take this back. Yeah, but I just haven't. 1:47:02.439 --> 1:47:04.160 I haven't noticed that happening. 1:47:04.520 --> 1:47:08.280 Yeah, it doesn't seem like the narrative for at least 1:47:08.280 --> 1:47:10.439 the ones we hear about in the news is people 1:47:10.560 --> 1:47:13.880 questioning whether or not they've actually happened. But I will 1:47:13.960 --> 1:47:19.040 say it shone a light to me, This is my 1:47:19.200 --> 1:47:21.000 read of the situation that I have not done the 1:47:21.040 --> 1:47:24.320 research in. To me, it's shown a light on the 1:47:24.360 --> 1:47:29.240 fact that people get social capital and benefit from playing 1:47:29.439 --> 1:47:32.360 the I mean literally in this case, playing the victim. 1:47:32.800 --> 1:47:35.920 And I think that narrative is one that the right 1:47:36.240 --> 1:47:42.480 really latched onto for the purposes of ridiculing and minimizing 1:47:42.840 --> 1:47:46.520 the suffering of legitimately vulnerable populations. 1:47:46.760 --> 1:47:50.920 I mean sort of the classic like victim who lied 1:47:51.680 --> 1:47:58.559 story is like that Rolling Stone article about yeah, sexual assault, 1:47:58.640 --> 1:48:02.280 like the women whose stories of sexual assault are later 1:48:02.320 --> 1:48:05.640 shown to have like inconsistencies. Every time that happens, it's like, 1:48:06.200 --> 1:48:10.760 oh God, here's another setback or something. But usually it's 1:48:10.800 --> 1:48:15.320 like someone who is not famous who then gains some 1:48:15.360 --> 1:48:19.759 sort of fame as a result of being a victim, 1:48:19.880 --> 1:48:24.559 and then is shown to have, for lack of a 1:48:24.560 --> 1:48:28.160 better word, just like made it up. Yeah, that tends 1:48:28.200 --> 1:48:33.120 to set back victims in general. Jesse was already famous, 1:48:33.520 --> 1:48:36.479 but and so it has this weird effect of it 1:48:36.560 --> 1:48:41.280 being like, I guess maybe now people won't be believe celebrities. 1:48:41.680 --> 1:48:45.440 It does don't know that they're less inclined to believe victims. 1:48:45.960 --> 1:48:49.240 I fully agree with you on that point. I will 1:48:49.280 --> 1:48:52.759 be more critical in general, I think, than you, because 1:48:52.840 --> 1:48:55.680 I do think. And again I don't blame Jesse for this. 1:48:55.800 --> 1:48:58.639 I think this is a problem of like internet culture 1:48:58.680 --> 1:49:01.920 and the way the far right opates that it made 1:49:02.560 --> 1:49:06.439 wokeness look silly, and it reinforced an idea that they 1:49:06.479 --> 1:49:09.360 had in their heads that people play the victim for 1:49:09.560 --> 1:49:12.599 social gain. And I think that that is a narrative 1:49:12.640 --> 1:49:14.439 that a lot of people on the right have, that 1:49:14.560 --> 1:49:20.200 people cry victim for their own benefit, for what is 1:49:20.240 --> 1:49:25.440 it points points, but I was saying, for like the diversity, 1:49:26.600 --> 1:49:30.799 d I thank you whatever, like oh the DEI points 1:49:30.880 --> 1:49:32.800 is what they're trying to get. And I think that 1:49:33.080 --> 1:49:36.680 this moment, because it was so publicized and because it 1:49:36.800 --> 1:49:39.360 was so like, once you have the narrative in your 1:49:39.400 --> 1:49:43.000 head of this guy faking this elaborate thing, it's so silly, 1:49:43.560 --> 1:49:49.559 it reinforces this cultural movement away from wokeness because it's like, see, 1:49:49.640 --> 1:49:52.960 people are only playing into this for their own social benefit. 1:49:53.000 --> 1:49:56.479 And I think measuring that and ascribing that to Jesse 1:49:57.000 --> 1:49:59.400 isn't fair because you just you can't do that. But 1:49:59.439 --> 1:50:02.040 I do see as like a bullet point in a 1:50:02.600 --> 1:50:07.360 I mean a genuine post woke, an anti woke backlash 1:50:07.360 --> 1:50:10.800 that we have seen in our culture, which is reinforced 1:50:10.840 --> 1:50:14.920 by a belief that people complain about genuine social injustices 1:50:15.160 --> 1:50:15.759 for attention. 1:50:16.920 --> 1:50:19.680 Yeah, and I mean and that speaks to a lot 1:50:19.680 --> 1:50:26.120 of like larger cultural trends that this podcast is on about. 1:50:26.160 --> 1:50:29.120 No, like, and it's it's impossible to measure. Yeah, I'm 1:50:29.160 --> 1:50:31.840 just like anecdotally trying to like pull from the sky 1:50:31.960 --> 1:50:33.960 of these random data points. 1:50:34.200 --> 1:50:36.680 No, totally. Like, I one hundred percent agree with you, 1:50:36.760 --> 1:50:40.160 and I and I do wish that like we relied 1:50:40.280 --> 1:50:43.599 less on like stories and more on like hard facts, 1:50:43.960 --> 1:50:48.040 because then it would matter less if stories got debunked 1:50:48.080 --> 1:50:51.639 because hard like you know what I mean, Like if 1:50:51.640 --> 1:50:54.840 we didn't need examples. 1:50:55.000 --> 1:50:56.640 So, but you know what I mean, it's that thing 1:50:56.680 --> 1:51:00.879 of a one person is a tragedy a million people's exactly. 1:51:01.360 --> 1:51:04.320 I also think, like just to to my point of 1:51:04.360 --> 1:51:08.720 this being like whatever, Like, so Jesse's trying to have 1:51:08.760 --> 1:51:11.679 a comeback, Sure I wouldn't hire him. 1:51:11.680 --> 1:51:13.479 If he was trying to have a comeback. He really 1:51:13.479 --> 1:51:14.519 should be quiet about this. 1:51:14.840 --> 1:51:18.200 He should. There are other men in Hollywood trying to 1:51:18.200 --> 1:51:23.479 have a comeback right now and succeeding who their careers 1:51:23.520 --> 1:51:26.559 were destroyed for crimes that I'm not going to compare 1:51:26.560 --> 1:51:31.280 apples and oranges yeah, in terms of impact right or wrong, 1:51:32.080 --> 1:51:37.479 but what they did tangibly hurt other people, whereas Jesse's 1:51:37.479 --> 1:51:38.599 main victim is himself. 1:51:38.760 --> 1:51:43.599 And also if you're if you google Mark Wahlberg hate crime, 1:51:44.120 --> 1:51:45.160 it's not a hoax. 1:51:45.520 --> 1:51:48.519 So just that's just a fun fact for you. Yes, 1:51:49.040 --> 1:51:53.840 and there are men who, for instance, recently showed up 1:51:53.840 --> 1:51:56.560 at SNL, recently showed up at the Netflix Is a 1:51:56.640 --> 1:51:59.560 Laugh Festival, recently showed up at the can Film Festival, 1:52:00.040 --> 1:52:03.479 who I would argue did things that damage their careers 1:52:03.520 --> 1:52:07.400 but are now having comebacks, who tangibly hurt other people, 1:52:07.760 --> 1:52:12.360 where I'm like, obviously the bar in Hollywood is pretty low. 1:52:12.520 --> 1:52:14.839 Maybe none of these men should get to have careers. 1:52:15.080 --> 1:52:18.919 But I'm like whatever, Jesse, like, I don't care, like whatever, 1:52:19.240 --> 1:52:19.479 you know. 1:52:19.560 --> 1:52:23.200 The different is the quote unquote gatekeepers, like the powerful 1:52:23.200 --> 1:52:26.920 people don't like feeling tricked, and they don't like feeling 1:52:27.000 --> 1:52:30.040 like Jesse was trying to trick them. I'm just like whatever, 1:52:30.080 --> 1:52:34.120 he's just mentally ill, Like, yeah, he just did, like 1:52:34.160 --> 1:52:35.200 you said, a bananas thing. 1:52:35.640 --> 1:52:39.560 He's just like And I don't even mean to disparage 1:52:39.560 --> 1:52:43.120 mentally ill people because most of us would not ever 1:52:43.240 --> 1:52:45.639 do this like it's horrible, but like. 1:52:47.720 --> 1:52:49.880 Famous a form of mental illness. 1:52:50.000 --> 1:52:54.519 Yeah, like I think he was just having a MENTI bee. 1:52:55.360 --> 1:52:57.200 It's like such a I understand why I got so 1:52:57.240 --> 1:52:59.400 much attention because it's just like a for lack of 1:52:59.400 --> 1:53:01.200 a better word, fun thing. 1:53:01.080 --> 1:53:01.880 To parse out. 1:53:02.200 --> 1:53:04.640 Yeah, because it's kind of, like you said, like an 1:53:04.720 --> 1:53:08.760 actual victimless crime by the end, like he's basic but 1:53:08.800 --> 1:53:13.640 that like so people can get this shn freud Like no, 1:53:13.680 --> 1:53:16.040 I'm like going through the true crime details of it 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:19.840 without actually feeling bad because like a person isn't dead, 1:53:19.920 --> 1:53:24.880 thank god. Yeah, oh so much. But again, yeah, people 1:53:25.200 --> 1:53:27.759 men are coming back in Hollywood for doing way worse. 1:53:28.000 --> 1:53:32.439 Yeah, so that's what happened. You know it didn't happen. 1:53:33.160 --> 1:53:37.479 I think I would love, you know, people more qualified 1:53:37.520 --> 1:53:40.800 than us to weigh in on what the what Jesse 1:53:40.880 --> 1:53:44.200 Smolt's future should should be in Hollywood. I'm not the 1:53:44.200 --> 1:53:47.080 the arbiter of that. But I also am like, look, 1:53:47.080 --> 1:53:50.800 we all make mistakes, we all do insane sometimes, we 1:53:50.840 --> 1:53:53.960 all do insane things. Not this insane. No, I think 1:53:54.080 --> 1:53:58.960 I'm a little not angry or annoy like I don't 1:53:59.000 --> 1:54:01.960 know the right word for like annoyed, just because I'm 1:54:02.000 --> 1:54:06.240 so scared and troubled by this like anti woke backlash 1:54:06.360 --> 1:54:09.840 that people who did take advantage of the moment. I 1:54:09.880 --> 1:54:14.240 am inclined to view more harshly. But I also fully 1:54:14.280 --> 1:54:17.120 agree with you that men come back in Hollywood for 1:54:17.160 --> 1:54:19.480 doing far worse to actual victims. 1:54:19.880 --> 1:54:22.719 I mean, yeah, again, like I'm not like we should 1:54:22.800 --> 1:54:26.960 welcome him back, but it's hard for me to stir 1:54:27.080 --> 1:54:29.800 up real vitriol against this guy. I just think of it. 1:54:30.280 --> 1:54:32.640 He's just a clown to me, Like he's just a 1:54:32.640 --> 1:54:33.280 fool to me. 1:54:33.760 --> 1:54:38.440 I think actual gay black people could better, and he was. 1:54:38.440 --> 1:54:43.080 An actual gay black people, but that he really is black. 1:54:43.680 --> 1:54:47.080 I think gay people of color might have different opinions 1:54:47.200 --> 1:54:51.320 on what his probably yeah, yeah, But Lizzie, I am 1:54:51.400 --> 1:54:55.760 very grateful for like the clarity and restraint and fact 1:54:55.880 --> 1:54:59.080 based reporting that you shared in this hoax, because again, 1:54:59.200 --> 1:55:01.040 like you said, this was one where I was like, Nope, 1:55:01.080 --> 1:55:03.320 not for me. But it is very interesting. 1:55:03.400 --> 1:55:06.919 You know, we tried to keep it to the things 1:55:07.200 --> 1:55:11.480 that we knew to be true, and we probably got 1:55:11.520 --> 1:55:12.760 some stuff from and. 1:55:12.880 --> 1:55:15.080 But you have ten possible theories and I. 1:55:14.960 --> 1:55:16.880 Had ten possible theories. One of them's got to. 1:55:16.840 --> 1:55:19.160 Be one of them's gota. It has the lamp somewhere 1:55:19.160 --> 1:55:21.640 on that spectrum somewhere. That's it. 1:55:21.720 --> 1:55:25.280 That's all I have. It's the end of the season. 1:55:25.520 --> 1:55:27.200 Thank you so much for listening. 1:55:27.400 --> 1:55:31.360 Than this was. This has just been a joy and 1:55:31.400 --> 1:55:34.320 a delight, and we are going to continue to hoax 1:55:35.160 --> 1:55:37.919 but we're not sure exactly where or when, but probably 1:55:37.920 --> 1:55:41.520 still on this exact feed and definitely on the same 1:55:41.560 --> 1:55:45.000 Instagram that will be communicated. So thank you for your 1:55:45.080 --> 1:55:46.240 listening and your support. 1:55:47.120 --> 1:55:50.640 Yeah, and uh, please hoax responsibly. 1:55:51.280 --> 1:55:52.680 Please hoax responsibly. 1:55:53.160 --> 1:56:07.120 Bye. PAX is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our hosts 1:56:07.160 --> 1:56:10.440 are Danas Schortz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are 1:56:10.440 --> 1:56:14.120 Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer Rima L. 1:56:14.160 --> 1:56:18.160 Kali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk. Our theme 1:56:18.240 --> 1:56:22.520 music was composed by Laine Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 1:56:22.640 --> 1:56:25.720 visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 1:56:25.720 --> 1:56:27.680 your podcasts. Thanks for listening.