1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class fun stuff 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Polly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Tracy, it's been 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: a little while since we've had a history mystery, and 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: I love them so much. I feel like I always 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: have to restrain myself from doing a bunch of them. 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: And history mystery is just fun to say. Indeed, it 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: doesn't like a little rhyme. So we're gonna talk about 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: one today. And this one is an artifact that's been 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: studied for more than a hundred years. Although some have 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: claimed to figure it out, there's really no consensus about it. 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: So we're gonna be talking about Minoan crete and the 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: face does disc which was unearthed in And this is 14 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: an artifact which features symbols that, like the Voyage Manuscript, 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: have really puzzled researchers for decades. But like I said, 16 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: no one has been able to agree on what it is, 17 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: although there's some people pretty vehement, especially in recent times, 18 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: that they have got this thing figured out. So create 19 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: of course, it's in the eastern Mediterranean. See the island 20 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: is about two hundred kilometers or a hundred and twenty 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: four miles across east to west. It ranges from twelve 22 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: to fifty eight kilometers or seven and a half to 23 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: thirty six miles north to south. Manollan's often credited as 24 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: the first European civilization, had a decentralized sort of culture 25 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:23,279 Speaker 1: which did a pretty brisk export business. So timber, food, olive, oil, wool, 26 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: and die were among the many goods that Creates sold 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: or traded, and their most popular imports were precious metals, 28 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: precious stones, and ivory. Minoan culture had contact with Egypt, Mesopotamia, 29 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: and Phoenicia, and they were constantly influenced a lot by 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: all of those cultures. If you've listened to our episode 31 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: on the Phoenician alphabet, you may recall that part of 32 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: the development of that alphabet came to the need of 33 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: creating this unified system of communication for trading with all 34 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: these various Mediterranean cultures. And we know that crete was 35 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: inhabited as early as the seventh millennium b C, although 36 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't until after the fifth millennium BC that we 37 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: really start to see pottery in the timeline, and that 38 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: sort of marks the beginning of the Manoan civilization. There 39 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: are a couple of different ways that the Minoan civilization 40 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: has divided into periods. One method is based on this 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: pottery and marks changes in the style of pottery. This 42 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: divides it as the Early period dating from three thousand 43 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: to twenty one d b C, the Middle period from 44 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: twenty one DUDE, and a late period dating from fifteen 45 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: hundred to eleven hundred BC. And there's an alternative way 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: of looking at the timeline of Minoan civilization and breaking 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: it up, and that's based sort of on architecture. Is 48 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: its linked to the culture, and this separates it into 49 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: four segments. So this breaks Minoan crete into a pre 50 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: palatial period from twenty hundred to nineteen hundred BC, a 51 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: proto palatial period from nineteen hundred to seventeen hundred b C, 52 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: a neo palatial period from seventeen hundred to fourteen hundred 53 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: b C, and a post palatial period from fourteen hundred 54 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: to eleven fifty b C. The Facets disc was discovered 55 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen o eight. It was found on crete in 56 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: what's called the Old Palace of Manoan face Does. The disc, 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: made of fired clay, has been dated to eighteen fifty 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: to fifteen, with an estimate of about seventeen hundred BC 59 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: as the more exact date. This means it pre dates 60 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: the time that the Phoenicians would have been developing their alphabet. 61 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: It also means it falls into the Middle Minoan period 62 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: if you're looking at the pottery based breakdown of the timeline, 63 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: and it sort of straddles the proto palatial and neo 64 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: palatial uh periods. On the alternate timeline circuit two thousand 65 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: b c E. In the crossover period between the pre 66 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: palatial and proto palatial periods, the political system shifted and 67 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: Minoan create became more centralized around a king. Remember we 68 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: had said earlier it was decentralized prior to this, and 69 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: this is also when these palaces became part of the 70 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: landscape of crete. They served a sort of both centers 71 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: of government and community. While there was a great deal 72 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: of upheaval around the shift from a decentralized culture the 73 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: one that was focused on a central figure, things seem 74 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: to settle into a peaceful period. Not long afterward, some event, 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: and we don't know exactly what it was, if it 76 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: was a natural disaster along the lines of an earthquake, 77 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: or if Minoan creed was invaded, but some event destroyed 78 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: these palaces that had become administrative centers, and this destruction 79 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: and the rebuilding of the lost palaces mark the transition 80 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: to the neo palatial period, and this neo palatial period 81 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: is also considered the time when Minoan culture was at 82 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: its apex. Next we will talk about this disk in 83 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: more detail, but first let's have a break to talk 84 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: about one of the awesome sponsors who make this show possible. 85 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: So most people will do whatever it takes to make 86 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: sure that their small business runs efficiently, and that means 87 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: sometimes that that involves constant trips to the post office, 88 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: but that can actually get in the way of efficiency. 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: So as stamps dot Com, you will be able to 90 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: spend less time at the post office and more time 91 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: actually growing your business. Stamps dot Com makes mailing and 92 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: shipping super easy. You just use your own computer and 93 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: your printer to purchase and print official US postage and 94 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: that's gonna work for any letter and any package that 95 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: you need to send. Stamps dot Com basically does all 96 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: of the thinking for you. So you have a digital 97 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: scale that's going to calculate the exact postage that you 98 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: need and it will actually help you decide on the 99 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: best class of mail you need to choose based on 100 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: your needs. So join more than five hundred thousand small 101 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: businesses that you stamps dot com and never worry about 102 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: going to the post office again. Right now, you can 103 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: use our promo code, which is stuff for a special 104 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: offer and that gets you a no risk trial plus 105 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: a one dollar bonus offer that includes a digital scale 106 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: and up to fifty five dollars worth of free postage. 107 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: So don't wait, go to stamps dot com. But before 108 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: you do anything else, click on the microphone at the 109 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: top of the home page and type in stuff that's 110 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: stamps dot com and enter stuff. So now to talk 111 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: about the actual disc, now that we've kind of set 112 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: up where it would have fallen in the timeline in 113 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: terms of Minoa Greek culture, the disc itself is pretty small. 114 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: The diameter ranges from fifteen point eight to sixteen point 115 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: five centimeters, which is six point two to six point 116 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: five inches, depending on where that diameter measurement is taken. Uh, 117 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: this is one of those things. I have seen pictures 118 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: of it at various points through the years, and in 119 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: my head it was always so much bigger than that. 120 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: That then, when I was working on research for this, 121 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: I think it's something. Yeah, it's like when we did 122 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: the episode on the ant together a device which I 123 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: similarly thought was quite large until you were like, no, 124 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: it's like little she boxed little. Uh. And the thickness 125 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: of this disc ranges from one point six to two 126 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: point one centimeters, so that's about point six to point 127 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: eight inches in thickness. There's a spiral pattern of more 128 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: than two hundred and forty images on the disc, featuring 129 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: forty five different symbols. In the very center of Side 130 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: A is what looks like a simple flower, and then 131 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: the symbols spiral out from there in groups that range 132 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: from two to seven in number. There are vertical lines 133 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: that set break these groups. Side B has a symbol 134 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: that's made of wavy lines and sort of a rounded 135 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: triangular shape at the center. Yeah, And as Tracy just said, 136 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: which was in my notes, it kind of the there's 137 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: an image in the center and then it sort of 138 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: spirals out from there. But there are actually two different 139 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: theories about how this spiraling really works in which direction 140 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: it's supposed to go. So one approach points out that 141 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: the symbols are oriented to the right, so faces that 142 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: are in profile, there's one that's often called the punk 143 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: and it looks like a dude to the mohawk UH, 144 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: and it looks to the right. And figures that appear 145 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: to be walking or in motion also look like they're 146 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: walking to the right. And this has led some scholars 147 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: to the conclusion that the disk should be read uh 148 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: spiraling outward from left to right. This is also supported 149 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: by a sort of erupt end point in the spiral, 150 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: where at the very end where the last loop kind 151 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: of meets up with the previous one, there's a hard 152 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: vertical line that's punctuated with several dots. It looks like 153 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: a very final sort of symbol to some people. The 154 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: opposite reading direction, which goes from right to left and 155 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: spirals inward, is supported by the fact that some symbols 156 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: occasionally overlap the symbols on their right. This indicates that 157 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: the stamping was done from right to left. Yeah, so 158 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: just like you wouldn't write a word with the last 159 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: letter first and then go backwards most people, maybe some 160 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: people learn to write backwards, but their ideas that they 161 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't be overlapping in that way, because normally you would 162 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: write it the way it would be uh, beginning to end, 163 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: So that suggests that it goes that way. And the 164 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: symbols we've mentioned that they were stamped, they appear to 165 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: have been stamped in the clay before firing. And what's 166 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: sort of interesting is that, uh, these stamps don't appear 167 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: to repeat even when they're very similar to one another, 168 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: Like it's the same punk that reappears, but it doesn't 169 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: look quite the same. So there may have been more 170 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: than one stamp for that. Uh. So, Yeah, symbols that 171 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: are almost identical don't look like they were made with 172 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: the same stamp. And there are a few positions in 173 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: the clay uh that look like it was stamped and 174 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: then maybe reworked, kind of smoothed out almost to erase 175 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: the stamp, and then re stamped prior to firing. Unlike 176 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: the symbols, the spiral line from the center out and 177 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: the lines that break up the segments of the symbols 178 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: look like they were carved into the disk by hand 179 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: rather than stamped. Dashes and dots also appear in some 180 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: of the symbol groupings. These elements, particularly the dashes, may 181 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: have some kind of significance, or they may have been 182 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: accidentally imprinted as the disc was being made. Yeah, they 183 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: they're not consistent in where they appear, like in some 184 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: cases they appear near the beginning of each UH segment, 185 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: but they don't do that to all the segments. So 186 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: we're not sure, and there is never, as we've said before, 187 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: been a consensus among researchers and scholars. So what these 188 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: symbols represent. Some are obvious pictograms, they look like humans 189 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: like I talked about the punk, they look like fish 190 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: or flowers, while others of them are more abstract, kind 191 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: of like with as you mentioned earlier, that the center 192 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: point on side B is like wavy lines in this 193 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: triangle that's got kind of rounded edges because of this mix. 194 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: It's clearly not specifically just a pictograph item, but there 195 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: are too many different symbols for it to likely be 196 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: an alphabet. So it's possible that the symbols represents syllables 197 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: that's a very popular approach to analysis, and that each 198 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: segment of symbols creates a single word. But the syllabary 199 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: theory has problems as well. For one thing, if the 200 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: symbols on the face dose disc formed a syllabary language, 201 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: there would be a more even distribution of the symbols. 202 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: There are also no one syllable words and very few 203 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: to syllable syllable words present if the disc is interpreted 204 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: this way, which would be pretty unusual for a language. Yeah, 205 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: it's one of those things whereas I was researching and 206 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: saw that, I'm like, is that And then I'm looking 207 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 1: at my own typing and I'm like, half of these 208 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: words have only one or two syllables. Well, there, I 209 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: think there are languages that have on average longer words 210 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: but still generally have shorter words. Also, Yeah, for most languages, 211 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: shorter words to make up sort of the bulk of 212 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: the language, and then you get compound words that are 213 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 1: like mixes of the shorter words. Right. So it is 214 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: also possible that this disc is a mix of communication forms. 215 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: It could be a combination of pictogram and syllabary, and 216 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: we're going to talk a little bit more about why 217 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: that's a possibility in just a moment. Many theories have 218 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: emerged into what this disc actually is, although there's no 219 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: real evidence for any of them. It's been suggested that 220 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: it's a letter of fertility ritual some form of musical notation, 221 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: a list of royalty, a religious hymn, a spell, a 222 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: geometry theorem. It goes on and on and on and 223 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: on and on. But without similar discs to reference against, 224 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: these are all really just stabs in the dark. Yeah. 225 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: But the one thing that people mostly do agree on, 226 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: and this was not always the case, is that it 227 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: is pretty commonly believed and accepted that the disc did 228 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: in fact originate on crete and wasn't created somewhere else 229 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: and then brought there. So many attempts have been made 230 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: to decrypt this disc through the years. In nine five, 231 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: Jean Faccuonau of Luxembourg believed that the language was a 232 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: pre Greek syllabic form of writing employed by a proto 233 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: Ionian culture. His translation of the disc tells the story 234 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: of the rain and eventual passing of a king. Most 235 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: fais does disc scholars rejected this interpretation. However, there have 236 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: been other interpretations put forth through the years, but all 237 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: of them have had a similar fate in the classics community. Yeah, 238 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: they've all really been dismissed pretty readily. But there is 239 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: a very recent interpretation theory that is now being discussed, 240 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: and this was introduced just last year. So in May 241 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: of Minoan language and classic scholar Gareth Owens gave a 242 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: tedex talk about his work with the fasts disc. He 243 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: and other researchers worked together with their not knowledge of 244 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: the writing forms Manohan linear A, Minoan linear B, and 245 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: cretent pictographic hiero hieroglyphic language over the course of six 246 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: years to assign syllables to the pictograms on the disc. 247 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 1: Cretent pictographic script was in use circa nineteen fifty to 248 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: seventeen hundred b c E. And the symbols used in 249 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: this writing form are pretty clearly drawn from real objects. 250 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of animals and humans and plant 251 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: life representation. So for context on these writing forms that 252 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: we just mentioned, Cretan pictographic script was in use circa 253 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty and nineteen or seventeen hundred b c E. 254 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: And the symbols used in this writing form are pretty 255 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: clearly drawn from real objects such as animals and humans 256 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: and plant life. Linear A is believed to have been 257 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: used on crete from about eighteen fifty to fourteen hundred BC. 258 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: It's a syllabic language, and while we know that some 259 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: of the phonetics represented by most of the symbols. We 260 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: don't really know the language of linear A. Linear A 261 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: has been found on artifacts and crete as well as 262 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: the a g and islands. And you probably noticed an 263 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: overlap as we were just talking about those two in 264 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: the times of use, when Cretan pictograph and linear a, 265 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: we're both being used. And we don't know why both 266 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: the more primitive and the more advanced writing forms were 267 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: being used concurrently for so long, but that could somehow 268 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: explain the idea that the writing on the disc is 269 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: a combination of different forms, as a sort of linguistic 270 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: evolution snapshot. Linear B is an adaptation of linear A. 271 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: It's believed that this was a version of the writing 272 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: form UH and that it contains more than nineties signs. 273 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: The script was used for financial records and was used 274 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: in palaces of many of continental Greece's cities. Linear B 275 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: is considered incredibly important linguistically because vestiges of this dialect 276 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: remain in evidence from Homer's writings. Yeah, it really didn't 277 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: have a long lasting influence, and it's common when interpreting 278 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: something like the face does disc for classicists and researchers 279 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: to work backward from linear B to linear AID to 280 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: create and pictogram writing. When they're working to interpret these 281 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: texts and using this so called epigraphic continuity, which is 282 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: one of the things that Owen's calls it, he's developed 283 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: his interpretation of the Facets disk, and Owen's reading of 284 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: the disc also suggests reading it inwards, starting at the 285 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: outer edge of the spiral rather than from the center out. 286 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: Owen's believes that he and his team have deciphered enough 287 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: of the signs on the disk to determine that it 288 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: is some sort of prayer to of a knowan goddess 289 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: and a particularly interesting finale to its talk. He shares 290 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: the recording of a woman reading the Facets disk as 291 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: his team has decrypted it, and you can also find 292 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: this recorded audio interpretation on a website that Owens and 293 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: his colleagues have put together and will link to it 294 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: in the show notes. But it is pretty interesting to 295 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: hear someone speaking this language, whatever it is this communication. 296 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: Owen's conviction in his findings is quite apparent. In fact, 297 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: he's willing to bet other researchers that his interpretation is correct, 298 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: and his bet is only one euro because he's really 299 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: hoping a lot of people will challenge him and then 300 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: he'll wind up with a lot of euros. For each 301 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: different bet he'll collect, he'll collect one euro And that, 302 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: of course doesn't mean I mean we we talked earlier 303 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: about how many other people have put forth theories and 304 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: they all got shot down. So it does not mean that, 305 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: even though Owens is very very confident in their findings, 306 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: that the entire classics world agrees with his transliteration. So 307 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: in a response paper that was written by John G. Young, 308 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: who is a professor of classics at the University of Kansas, 309 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: he kind of goes through point by point what he 310 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: feels like is right in their work and what he 311 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: feels like kind of diverged and wasn't maybe so solid, 312 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: and he summarizes his points at the end of the 313 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: paper by writing, quote, I think Owen starts off well, 314 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: and in the company of many of us who have 315 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: tried to play secure phonetic I'll use on face dose 316 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: disc signs by working backward from linear B. But by 317 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: the time we get to cretin pictogram signs, the identifications 318 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: have become insecure, and the step to identifying face doose 319 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: discs signs now seems a leap. Owens has bridged some 320 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: of that leap, but I cannot follow him in identifying 321 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: the face those disc signs, let alone seeing in his 322 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: transcription true parallels to linear A words. Thomas G. Palma, 323 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: Robert M. Armstrong, Centennial Professor and Director of the Program 324 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: and A G and Scripts and Prehistory at the University 325 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: of Texas at Austin wrote of the Owens interpretation that 326 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: data are insufficient for proof or disproof. Every proposed decipherment 327 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: Gareth Owens is included fails the standard of probability. Yeah, 328 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: I was actually surprised watching some of these documentaries and 329 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: doing research that probability comes up a lot like linguistic 330 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: probability wasn't something I had thought a lot about. But 331 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of like that same thing where we were 332 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: saying earlier, like the likelihood of a language having no 333 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: single syllables not so probable. It comes up in terms 334 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: of statistical analysis of language a lot more than I 335 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: ever would have thought about. But another critic, Brent Davis, 336 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: who is the adjunct professor at the Center for Classics 337 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: and Archaeology at the University of Melbourne, was asked his opinion, 338 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: and he said, quote in the end, owens readings are 339 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: based on a stack of unverifiable assumptions. His conclusions are 340 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: unproven and unprovable. It's not surprising then that so many 341 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: scholars of a g and Bronze Age scripts aren't accepting them. 342 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: Despite criticisms, Owens is steadfast and upbeat, and an email 343 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: interview with Bible History Daily, he wrote, it is perhaps 344 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: easier to criticize than to offer something new. After twenty 345 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: five years on crete, and having spent a decade doing 346 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: a PhD in linguistics on the structure of the Minoan language, 347 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: and after six years on the disc, I personally will 348 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: keep trying to improve our work and I will happily 349 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: hear better theories with great pleasure. Yeah, he really is 350 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: a very upbeat gent His talk is really good. If 351 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: you're like me, when you first start his ted talk, 352 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: he starts in another language and you think, oh, no, 353 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: this isn't for me. That's only the very beginning. To 354 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: stick with it, and then if you're a native English 355 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: speaker you'll be right on board. He switches to English 356 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: for the rest of it, but he gives the talk 357 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: in Greece, so he starts off speaking I believe Greek. 358 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: But before we talk a little bit about a whole 359 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: other controversy that surrounds this disc let's pause for another 360 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: word from one of our fabulous sponsors who keeps us 361 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: going today. Our sponsor is square Space, and Squarespace is 362 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: an awesome way, especially if you don't have a lot 363 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: of experience for you make your own website. It is 364 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: a very easy to use, drag and drop intuitive interface. 365 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: On top of it being extremely easy to use, they 366 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: also have twenty four seven customer support that includes email 367 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: support and live chat. They're there twenty four hours a day, 368 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: seven days a week, so you can make a really 369 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: beautiful website that's very easy to create and also has 370 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: lots and lots of support there if you get into 371 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: it and discover it's not quite as a easy for 372 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: you personally as you thought that it might be. One 373 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: of My favorite things about it is how easily it 374 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: scales your website so that it's going to look great 375 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: on a computer, on a phone, on a tablet. Anywhere 376 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: someone can look at your website, they're going to see 377 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: the best possible experience. I love that too, So you 378 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: can actually try this product risk free by going to 379 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: www dot square space dot com slash history that gives 380 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: you a fourteen day free trial with no credit card necessary. 381 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 1: And I will say that again, no credit card necessary 382 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: for your fourteen day free trial if you'd like it. 383 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: Once you get into it, the it costs as little 384 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: as eight dollars a month and includes a free domain 385 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: name if you sign up for a year. If you 386 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: use the offer code history, you get ten percent off 387 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: of your first purchase. So one more time, that is 388 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: square space dot com slash history. So there's the question 389 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: of whether this whole thing is really a hoax. The 390 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: man who discovered the face dost Dic was Luigi Pionier 391 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: and he was an Italian archaeologist. He found the disc 392 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: in an underground temple depository. He also believed it to 393 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: be of religious significance along with the Fais dose disc. 394 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: The Italian archaeology team that he was part of found 395 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 1: a clay tablet with linear a inscriptions as well as 396 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: various pieces of pottery, and recalled that this was in 397 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds when he made that discovery. Now, 398 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: as is the case with other ancient artifacts that haven't 399 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: been truly understood, all once again reference the Voytage manuscript, 400 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: which has come up as some people think it's a 401 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: hoax because otherwise somebody would have decrypted it by now. 402 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: Uh controversy again eventually enters the picture with the Fais 403 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: Dos disc as well. In two thousand eight, Jerome Eisenberg, 404 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: who is the director and owner of the Royal Athena 405 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: Galleries in New York and is considered an expert on 406 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: ancient art, proclaimed that the Face Dose Disc was in 407 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: fact a fraud. Eisenberg believed that Pernier, out of jealousy 408 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: that he held for other archaeologists of his time and 409 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: their accomplishments, fabricated on a publishment of his own. He's 410 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: not the first person to put forth the idea that 411 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: the disc is bologny, but he seems to be the 412 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: most passionate about it when it comes to really chasing 413 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: down the truth. And to support his accusation, Eisenberg pointed 414 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: out that the edges of the Face Doos disc are 415 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 1: far more cleanly cut than other examples of tablets from 416 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: a knowing creed, and he also cites the lack of 417 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: any credible translation as evidence that it really is likely 418 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: fake Additionally, no other artifact found on crete has the 419 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: same type of stamping or writing as the Face Does Disc. 420 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: One piece, the Arcolo Cory Acts found in four does 421 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: have some similar markings, but Eisenberg also believes this might 422 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: too be a fraud. So our listeners are smart and 423 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: as they listen to us just now talking about Eisenberg's claims, 424 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: they probably had a great idea. The Face Does Disc 425 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: is carefully kept in the Heracleon Archaeology Museum in crete. 426 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: So why does it someone just test this to see 427 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: if it's the real deal or just a long pondered fraud. Yeah, 428 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: I was like, we have isotope testing, what's going on? 429 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: The museum is not having any of that. It will 430 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: not allow the disk to be tested. Eisenberg has requested 431 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: the testing many times over the years, offering to pay 432 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: all the expenses that it would incur, but no dice. 433 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: They also have the acts that we mentioned a moment ago, 434 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: and they're not letting him where anyone test that either. 435 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: Eisenberg asserts that the required tests are not going to 436 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: harm the disk. At most one or two small holes 437 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: would need to be drilled in the edge of the 438 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: artifact to take samples so tiny that he says these 439 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: can easily be repaired so that the naked eye would 440 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: detect no anomaly. Requests to even examine the disc have 441 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: been denied on the grounds that it's an important piece 442 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: of Greek history and is unmovable. Eisenberg believes that the 443 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: museum is afraid that the disc would be revealed as 444 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: fake and that they would lose tourism because of it. Yes, 445 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: so it remains a mystery unless they cave an acquiesce 446 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: and let someone tell used it. I don't know. People 447 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: love hoaxes, so it might actually work out of their 448 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: benefit if it were fake. At that point, it's still 449 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: a hundred year old, really um carefully crafted hoax, so 450 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: it would be interesting. Yeah, there was. This is kind 451 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: of a footnote. It's such a weird thing, and I found, uh, 452 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: just one reference to it, but I wanted to mention it. 453 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: There was allegedly a smaller copy of the disc that 454 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: was found in Russia in that raised some other hoax questions, 455 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: but that version has vanished without a trace. Uh several 456 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: years after people started raising their eyebrows about it, it 457 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: just kind of went underground and has never been seen 458 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: or heard of again, so we don't have that for comparison. 459 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: We don't have. This whole thing just makes me wonder 460 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: if if hundreds and hundreds or even thousands of years 461 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: from now, archaeologists are going to find some kind of 462 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: junkie things somebody bought an urban outfitters that has like 463 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: fake hopie designs on it or something, and then spend 464 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: hundreds of years trying to decode it when really it 465 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: is cheap stuff that appropriated another culture and then was 466 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: sold in a retail estapament. Yeah. I wonder similar things 467 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: as well. I mean I had that moment of what 468 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: if it's just some kids doodle that his parents. What 469 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: I don't we don't know? What if this was a 470 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: prop that I don't know? Right? Yeah, we have No. 471 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: There's just enough similarities, you know, and valid interpretive elements 472 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: to it are valid to be interpreted elements to it 473 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: that it seems like it could be grounded there. But 474 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: people have also pointed out that it's just far enough 475 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: off that it supports the hoax theory, and that it's 476 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: just good enough to represent pretty closely what we knew 477 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: about Minoan creets in the early nineteen hundreds. So so 478 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: we don't know, and hopefully we'll learn more at some point. 479 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: I always like some fresh learning before I think of 480 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: some more wild conjecture. Do you have some ser mail 481 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: for us? I do. I have a couple of different pieces. Uh, 482 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: it's a listener male stravaganza over here. First, I have 483 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: a little correction, because sometimes I'm a dufas. Uh. When 484 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: we had read in a previous episode a time capsule email. Uh. 485 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: During our listener mail segment, we were talking about Andy 486 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: Warhol and those time capsules, and I incorrectly attributed Warhol's 487 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: death to Valorie Salani's because my brain cannot be trusted. 488 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: She did shoot him. He died much later because she 489 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: shot him, and all I could hear was like lou 490 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: Reid singing about it in my head, and I just 491 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: my brain misfired. I apologize. I feel very, very embarrassed, 492 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: because I really do love Warhol. It did a lot 493 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: of papers on him when I was younger. But it 494 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: doesn't always stick with you. It's like a foreign language 495 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: sometimes if you're not practicing it, it just gets rusty. 496 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: And then I have several short listener males all about 497 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: our recent episode on Peanut butter because, like I said, 498 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: I love it talk about it a lot. So The 499 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: first one is from our listener Perry, who wanted to 500 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: recommend the dish for peanut butter lovers. He says, high, ladies, 501 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: I'm sitting here at work listening to today's podcast on 502 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: peanut butter, and I thought I'd take the time to 503 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: recommend the strangest and most delicious peanut butter dish I 504 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: have ever had the pleasure of eating. A few years ago, 505 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: my younger sister spent a semester abroad in Ghana, and 506 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: when she returned home, she couldn't wait to take me 507 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: to the nearest authentic Ghanaian food restaurant we could find. 508 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: She was so excited for me to try one dish, 509 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: in particular because of my love for its star ingredient, 510 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: which is peanut butter. Apparently peanut butter is revered in Ghana. 511 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: Who knew? I highly recommend booking it to the nearest 512 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: place you can find to try a plate of peanut 513 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: butter soup and fufu, which is a dish served with 514 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: sticky rice that you roll into balls and dip with 515 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: your hands into the chicken and peanut butter soup. Although 516 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: it may sound like a strange combination for peanut butter 517 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: lovers like ourselves, it is just about the tastiest dish ever. Perry, 518 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: I am glad to report that I have had fufuu 519 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: and I agree it's so delicious. I think I had 520 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,959 Speaker 1: it the first time when I was in Disney World. 521 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: There is a really there are a couple of really 522 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: yummy African restaurants at and Wokingham Lodge. At one point, 523 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: one of the chef's team out and we were talking 524 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: because that's my favorite ride is food and uh we 525 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: were talking about the Foo Foo and he brought me 526 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: some sticky rice and we played in eight together, which 527 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: was delicious and it has now become one of my 528 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: big favorites. Uh. The next one is from our listener Penny, 529 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: and she is also writing about it. Uh. She does 530 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: photo editing in a fashion company, which sounds so cool 531 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: to me. Penny sent us pictures. Uh. She says. When 532 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: I was a young girl, we lived with my grandmother 533 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: in Ohio during every summer and winter vacation. She had 534 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: a large old house with a large basement that I 535 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: was always too frightened to go down into. One evening, 536 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: I chased a firefly down into the basement and ended 537 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: up staring at shelves upon shelves of canned goods and 538 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: boxes of clothes and random things. I remembered seeing large 539 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: cans of peanut butter sitting right on the shelf at 540 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: eye level that were bigger than my head. I was 541 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: too scared to venture fourth, and I ran back upstairs. 542 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: I remember from that day fourth, I thought that every 543 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: time I asked for a peanut butter sandwich, that the 544 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: peanut butter came from one of those cans. Now that 545 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: I'm older and my grandmother has passed, I visited her home, 546 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: but it's since been cleared out. I asked my uncle 547 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: about all that stuff I saw, and he said that 548 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: during the Great Depression, my grandmother was expected to take 549 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: care of her younger siblings as she was the eldest, 550 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: and the family basically survived on peanut butter. The Great 551 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: Depression did something to people, including turning my grandmother into 552 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: a hordor of food and clothing from Goodwill. She was 553 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: convinced the next depression and economic collapse was right around 554 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: the corner, and she stalked up on everything determined to 555 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: never go hungry by always having peanut butter nearby, And 556 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: even now I always have at least three peanut butter 557 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: jars in my house just in case I can't. I 558 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: can't fault the idea of keep the peanut butter on 559 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: hand for a variety of reasons, except that I can't 560 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: because I eat it all much too quickly, Like when 561 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: the apocalypse comes and Bride's like, where's all that food 562 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: we bought, I'll be like, in my tummy, it's gone. Uh. 563 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: And the last one is from our listener, Liam, and 564 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: it made me laugh so hard. It came latest last 565 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: night while I was doing some work, and I was 566 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: cackling so much that it frightened my cats us. Recently, 567 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: when listening to the fascinating history of peanut butter, my 568 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: ears pricked up when I heard you mentioned Sanitas Food 569 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: Company because of a funny thing I've noticed here in Australia. 570 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: And I left out the part earlier where Liam is 571 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: an American from Boston and he's currently living in Sydney. 572 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: He said, peanut butter is one of many surprising things 573 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: that Ozzie's does designate as quote very American. I, of 574 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: course loved this stuff, and I was cracked up when 575 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: I found a jar of peanut butter at my local 576 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: grocery store with a picture pun of a peanut doing 577 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: crunches to indicate that it was crunchy peanut butter. He 578 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: sent us a picture. It is so funny, I literally 579 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: could not stop laughing. He says, it doesn't take much 580 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: to make me laugh. But when I posted the photo 581 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: on Facebook, my sister pointed out the funny name of 582 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: the company that made the peanut butter, which is Sanitarium. 583 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: And then he made the connection to John Harvey Kellogg 584 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 1: in the Battle Creek Sanitarium, and so I pointed him 585 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: to that episode. But I just wanted to share the 586 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: idea that crunchy peanut butter can be represented by a 587 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: peanut exercise is ABS. That's like the best thing ever. 588 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: I also want you you expressed your horror that I 589 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: do not care for crunchy peanut butter. However, on the 590 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: fourth of July, we had a an entire beach day, 591 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: which was great, and we had sandwiches for lunch with 592 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: sandwich provisions that friends had brought, and they had like 593 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: a crunchy peanut butter and it was delicious. I had 594 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: it and within a peanut butter and banana sandwich. So 595 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: I think perhaps either my tastes have changed, which is true. 596 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: There's other stuff that was I hated when I was 597 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: a child that I like now, or I was just 598 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: eating the wrong crunchy peanut butter. Well, I was gonna say. 599 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: I developed a theory after we were doing the the 600 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: q A listen on that episode that because you had 601 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: mentioned the big vat peanut butter that had to be stirred, 602 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: sometimes because of the stirring and the peat chunky peanuts 603 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: in it, they can break up a little bit and 604 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: you get almost a grainy texture, and that might be 605 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: the problem that you had had previously, like it gets 606 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: it gets a little weird in your mouth, and that 607 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: some of the natural the ones that you have to 608 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: stir when there's crunchy, but so much better now than 609 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: they were in Billy Are. I remember we had a 610 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: friend who had We used to say she had hippie parents. 611 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: It's really not appropriate to say, but in the seventies 612 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: that's what my parents said about her parents, and they 613 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: had that kind of peanut butter, and I always remember 614 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: being like, yeah, this is difficult to consume and it 615 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: tore my bread. There are there are a lot of 616 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: food options that that my like the whole grain pasta 617 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: options that exist now are also so much better than 618 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: in the slate seventies. Anyway, that's off topic food science. 619 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: If you would like the right to us about crazy 620 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: uh legumes, doing exercises on anistors of food or any 621 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: other thing, you can do that at history find at 622 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: at housto works dot com. You can also connect with 623 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: us at Facebook dot com, slash mist in History, on Twitter, 624 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: at misst in history, at miss in history dot tumbler 625 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: dot com, on pinterest dot com, slash mist in History, 626 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: and at mist in History dot spredsher dot com. If 627 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: you would like to purchase mist in History UH shirts 628 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: and phone cases and tope bags and other wackadoodle items. UH. 629 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: If you would like to learn a little bit more 630 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: about ancient Greece, you can go to our parents site 631 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: how stuff Works, and you can pay then Greece and 632 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: they search barring. You would get all kinds of information 633 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: about Greece through the ages. You would like to come 634 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: and visit us at miss in history dot com. You 635 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: can do that and find all of our back episodes 636 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: and show notes for all of the episodes since Tracy 637 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: and I have been hosts, as well as the occasional 638 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: other delightful goodie or blog post, so we encourage you 639 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: to do that. Come see us on the web at 640 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: how to work dot com and missment history dot com 641 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Because 642 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: it has to works dot com