WEBVTT - Making Immigration Cheaper & Easier 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.236 Pushkin. When we first went public with it, I received, 0:00:24.876 --> 0:00:28.116 presumably from an attorney because they quoted law here, an 0:00:28.396 --> 0:00:33.716 anonymous threatening letter with magazine cutouts like they think, like 0:00:33.836 --> 0:00:35.476 eighties horror movie. 0:00:35.196 --> 0:00:38.556 Style, like a kidnapping letter exactly. 0:00:38.196 --> 0:00:40.916 That said like shut down your business, Like yeah, but. 0:00:41.196 --> 0:00:43.996 You're saying this. This magazine cutout letter was like quoting 0:00:44.076 --> 0:00:45.756 specific statutes or something. 0:00:46.196 --> 0:00:49.076 It was talking about unauthorized practice of law in a 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:51.596 way that you would only do it if you were 0:00:51.596 --> 0:00:52.196 an attorney. 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:54.676 Amazing. Is it framed on your wall? 0:00:55.836 --> 0:00:59.596 Tragically during an office move, it disappeared somewhere. 0:01:04.116 --> 0:01:06.676 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem? The 0:01:06.716 --> 0:01:08.956 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:01:09.436 --> 0:01:13.716 technological progress. My guest today is Shao Wang. He's the 0:01:13.756 --> 0:01:17.276 founder of a company called Boundless. Chao's problem is this, 0:01:17.876 --> 0:01:20.356 how do you make it cheaper and easier for people 0:01:20.436 --> 0:01:23.316 to deal with immigration law or to frame it in 0:01:23.316 --> 0:01:26.596 a bigger way. How do you use technology to bring 0:01:26.636 --> 0:01:30.476 down costs in a bureaucratic, slow moving field where, by 0:01:30.516 --> 0:01:34.716 the way, the incumbents don't want you. Joo moved to 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:36.996 the US from China when he was three years old. 0:01:37.556 --> 0:01:39.956 He grew up, and he worked a lot of places 0:01:39.996 --> 0:01:42.876 at McKinsey and at the New York Department of Education 0:01:43.196 --> 0:01:46.676 and at Amazon, before he ever had the idea to 0:01:46.676 --> 0:01:48.796 try to do anything about immigration. 0:01:49.876 --> 0:01:52.916 I had always taken it for granted that immigration is 0:01:52.956 --> 0:01:55.916 really hard. And if you grow up, like all of 0:01:55.956 --> 0:01:59.956 the friends, all of your circles around, everyone has their 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:02.596 own struggle with the immigration system. And it always becomes 0:02:02.636 --> 0:02:05.996 a running joke around who had the toughest time, how 0:02:06.036 --> 0:02:09.476 many hours they were stuck in some back ron room 0:02:09.516 --> 0:02:12.756 and some concert or some airport, like the just constant 0:02:12.836 --> 0:02:17.036 stories about the fraughtness and the turmoil of being an immigrant. 0:02:17.356 --> 0:02:20.956 And I had always just taken for granted that that's 0:02:20.996 --> 0:02:24.196 just the way things were, That's just life. It's like, 0:02:24.436 --> 0:02:27.276 you know, the sun comes up. Yeah, people struggle with immigration. 0:02:27.636 --> 0:02:32.476 And it wasn't until twenty sixteen. I'm almost ashamed to 0:02:33.196 --> 0:02:35.076 talk about it this way, but it's like, is this 0:02:35.196 --> 0:02:38.396 the first time, late twenty sixteen that I actually asked 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:42.116 a question why? Well, someone asked me the question why 0:02:42.156 --> 0:02:43.156 is immigration so hard? 0:02:43.876 --> 0:02:45.876 What was the context? Who asked you? That? 0:02:46.476 --> 0:02:49.116 It was someone who is someone in their office just 0:02:49.196 --> 0:02:53.836 went through an immigration process, foreign national married uses and 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:56.596 had to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on their 0:02:56.596 --> 0:03:00.476 immigration attorney had a terrible experience, and the question was like, 0:03:00.956 --> 0:03:04.276 why is this whole thing so hard, so expensive? And 0:03:04.316 --> 0:03:05.956 they asked me because I was the I guess, the 0:03:06.196 --> 0:03:10.476 most immigrant looking person in the room, and I, uh, 0:03:10.836 --> 0:03:13.316 I said, that's a really good question. I have never 0:03:13.396 --> 0:03:16.796 thought that as like why. And the more that I 0:03:16.876 --> 0:03:19.756 like dug into why, like you know, you get to 0:03:19.796 --> 0:03:22.116 the point where you just learn too much. Right. I 0:03:22.156 --> 0:03:25.716 talked to hundreds of families, lawyers, government folks, and you 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:28.476 realize that, like this, this has to be solved. It 0:03:28.556 --> 0:03:31.356 was unbelievable to me that this problem has existed for 0:03:31.476 --> 0:03:35.756 generations in the same way where every other you know, 0:03:35.916 --> 0:03:39.996 related field has like modernized or used data or used technology, 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:43.036 or become more personalized, or become more efficient, or become 0:03:43.036 --> 0:03:46.236 more affordable or accessible, and immigration is stuck the same 0:03:46.276 --> 0:03:48.556 way that I did it with my parents. And the 0:03:48.596 --> 0:03:51.116 only thing that has changed in the thirty years that 0:03:51.116 --> 0:03:53.956 I've been in this country is that there are over 0:03:54.036 --> 0:03:56.396 five times has been the immigration attorneys. Even though the 0:03:56.436 --> 0:03:59.636 annual number of immigrants has stayed relatively the same and 0:03:59.716 --> 0:04:02.836 the prices have gone up, and so you put that 0:04:03.116 --> 0:04:06.196 You're like this, I can't not do something about it. 0:04:06.636 --> 0:04:09.556 I mean one like what you're like, how hasn't anybody 0:04:09.556 --> 0:04:13.396 done anything about this? But like it's the government and 0:04:13.476 --> 0:04:20.236 it's lawyers, and you know, to some extent people want 0:04:20.316 --> 0:04:24.796 immigration to be hard, right, to some extent politically bureaucratically, 0:04:24.876 --> 0:04:27.876 people want immigration to be hard. So it doesn't seem 0:04:27.876 --> 0:04:32.916 to me to be an obviously solvable or addressable problem 0:04:33.076 --> 0:04:35.356 that you're sort of setting out to solve or address. 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:39.796 Where were you in my life in twenty six and 0:04:39.836 --> 0:04:44.516 it was like, by by February of twenty seventeen, I 0:04:44.556 --> 0:04:47.916 felt like I like I had an idea, right, I 0:04:47.916 --> 0:04:50.796 felt like, hey, we can make this more accessible that 0:04:51.196 --> 0:04:56.076 you know, this fundamentally is an information problem, right where 0:04:56.556 --> 0:04:58.476 you have all of these people who want to know 0:04:58.636 --> 0:05:01.836 and want to understand immigration, wanted to operate, and then 0:05:01.876 --> 0:05:04.836 you have only two groups of people that actually know 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:08.276 what to do. You have the federal government who is 0:05:08.796 --> 0:05:13.516 again and uh make things opaque and doesn't release the information. 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:17.476 And then you have immigration attorneys that are financially incentivized 0:05:17.516 --> 0:05:21.836 to be the only arbiters of this information and so 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:26.036 this is like you know, from someone who you know 0:05:26.116 --> 0:05:28.876 my background, Like I tried to like transform the public 0:05:28.996 --> 0:05:31.716 education system that has been stuck in the same way. 0:05:32.396 --> 0:05:34.516 To be clear, you worked for the New York City 0:05:34.516 --> 0:05:36.156 Department of ED right, that's yes. 0:05:36.636 --> 0:05:39.676 And we launched new schools that tried different things like 0:05:40.196 --> 0:05:42.876 making school eleven months of the year and using technology 0:05:42.916 --> 0:05:45.236 different ways. Even at Amazon, there's like, how do we 0:05:45.356 --> 0:05:48.436 change physical retail where we launched Amazon Go and just 0:05:48.436 --> 0:05:50.036 work out where you can just take something and you 0:05:50.116 --> 0:05:52.316 leave and there's no checkout Like this, in my mind 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:55.396 is another example of something that has been operating in 0:05:55.436 --> 0:06:00.476 the same way for generations and there has to be 0:06:00.516 --> 0:06:02.716 an opportunity for us to change that. And how can 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:07.916 I help every family you know, have the confidence and 0:06:07.996 --> 0:06:11.316 the support and the services that you know previously were 0:06:11.316 --> 0:06:13.836 only available to those who could pay thousands and thousands 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:15.516 of dollars for attorneys. 0:06:16.236 --> 0:06:19.676 And so you have this as the like big lofty, 0:06:19.956 --> 0:06:23.956 you know idea behind starting the company. Is there some 0:06:24.116 --> 0:06:30.996 particular service, some particular immigration related thing that is your 0:06:31.036 --> 0:06:33.956 sort of your wedge, your first thing you're going to try. 0:06:34.556 --> 0:06:36.396 Yeah, So the way that I looked at it was 0:06:36.476 --> 0:06:40.556 first it had to have a shorter timeline, right, So 0:06:40.716 --> 0:06:43.436 I needed to be able to show that we if 0:06:43.476 --> 0:06:46.116 you use us, it'll work. And if it takes years 0:06:46.156 --> 0:06:49.476 for something to get reviewed and approved, then like I 0:06:49.476 --> 0:06:51.876 don't have testimonials. Why would you trust your life to 0:06:51.956 --> 0:06:54.556 a company that doesn't work? And then the second part 0:06:54.796 --> 0:07:00.036 is is that it should be uncapped so we can 0:07:00.236 --> 0:07:04.076 like you know, create and have enough market to to 0:07:04.316 --> 0:07:06.316 create a adventure scalable business. 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:08.396 And so just to be clear but un kept, I 0:07:08.396 --> 0:07:11.516 mean there are some some things like what the H 0:07:11.596 --> 0:07:14.396 one B visa for skilled workers where the government limits 0:07:14.436 --> 0:07:16.276 the number of people, and so you don't want to 0:07:16.316 --> 0:07:18.556 do something with a small number of people. You want 0:07:18.556 --> 0:07:20.156 to do something with a large number of people so 0:07:20.196 --> 0:07:23.156 that there's a big market for your service. That's exactly yeah, okay, 0:07:23.676 --> 0:07:26.036 and then so quick turn uncapped. 0:07:26.436 --> 0:07:30.636 Yeah, and then folks that I can acquire affordably through 0:07:31.036 --> 0:07:33.156 digital marketing means. 0:07:33.676 --> 0:07:36.996 Just classic online business. You want a relatively low customer 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:37.636 acquisition cars. 0:07:37.756 --> 0:07:39.716 I want to be able to find something that people 0:07:39.756 --> 0:07:42.836 are actually searching for and are willing to like willing 0:07:42.876 --> 0:07:46.316 to to to you know, come learn about a new 0:07:46.356 --> 0:07:49.756 way of doing something that that that doesn't involve going 0:07:49.796 --> 0:07:52.556 into a mahogany clad office and like handing someone in 0:07:52.556 --> 0:07:55.476 the suit and tie all of your information. And so 0:07:55.516 --> 0:07:59.196 the first first wedge as that we picked was was 0:07:59.196 --> 0:08:02.676 around marriage green cards. So this is a US citizen 0:08:03.196 --> 0:08:05.556 who has fallen in love with and gotten married to 0:08:05.676 --> 0:08:09.556 a foreign national and now either wants to be able 0:08:09.596 --> 0:08:12.116 to help them stay in the country or bring them 0:08:12.156 --> 0:08:12.356 to the. 0:08:12.356 --> 0:08:15.676 Country, okay, and get them a green card, get basically 0:08:15.716 --> 0:08:18.236 a permanent resident status exactly. 0:08:18.636 --> 0:08:21.596 Yeah, and it has a top priority of on what 0:08:21.756 --> 0:08:23.236 the government reviews and. 0:08:25.516 --> 0:08:27.116 Quickly. It means it gets done quickly. 0:08:27.476 --> 0:08:27.916 Yeah. 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:30.196 There's a lot of people, lots of US citizens are 0:08:30.236 --> 0:08:32.556 married to people who are not US citizens. 0:08:32.116 --> 0:08:34.916 Three to four hundred thousand the year, okay. 0:08:34.996 --> 0:08:37.516 And they're out there doing Google searches how do I 0:08:37.556 --> 0:08:38.956 get a green card for my spouse? 0:08:39.316 --> 0:08:43.596 Exactly to the point where you know, we were getting 0:08:44.116 --> 0:08:47.516 paying customers, like it was such a high need that 0:08:47.556 --> 0:08:52.236 we were getting paying customers before like our product is 0:08:52.276 --> 0:08:55.556 even done, right, yeah. 0:08:55.636 --> 0:08:58.076 Yeah, So what you have, like the website is up 0:08:58.116 --> 0:09:00.116 and people are like trying to get you to get 0:09:00.156 --> 0:09:02.796 them help them get a spouse a green card, but 0:09:02.836 --> 0:09:05.436 you don't sort of have your act together yet or 0:09:05.436 --> 0:09:06.236 what's going on there? 0:09:07.516 --> 0:09:09.716 I mean embarrassingly is that like we we have the 0:09:09.756 --> 0:09:12.076 first parts we want to learn, right, and it's like 0:09:12.156 --> 0:09:14.636 that demantra at the time is MVP and like get 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:19.436 things out there, just do a thing. Yeah, And we 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:22.396 didn't expect people to get as far through the process 0:09:22.436 --> 0:09:25.076 as they ended up doing, to a point where and 0:09:25.116 --> 0:09:29.996 we've actually we actually had to like add things, you know, 0:09:30.076 --> 0:09:32.316 in real time, as like somebody's. 0:09:31.956 --> 0:09:34.836 Going refreshed and you're like trying to make the webs. 0:09:35.036 --> 0:09:37.436 Like something isn't working, and so we're like making a 0:09:37.476 --> 0:09:40.076 quick fix and they're like, hey, maybe you should refresh 0:09:40.076 --> 0:09:42.076 your browser and see if it, you know, if it works. 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:45.036 And are you literally sort of building an online pathway 0:09:45.076 --> 0:09:47.236 so they can like fill out the forms to get 0:09:47.276 --> 0:09:49.916 a spousal green card? Is it like that real? Is 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:50.516 that what's happening? 0:09:51.236 --> 0:09:53.796 I mean? The idea here is that if we can 0:09:53.836 --> 0:10:00.356 translate complex government forms and requirements into steps that everyone 0:10:00.396 --> 0:10:04.476 can follow and feel confident in, then you could go 0:10:04.636 --> 0:10:07.516 end to end and be able to like get through 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:10.636 a process that previously took again months on your own 0:10:10.996 --> 0:10:12.436 and do it in a couple of hours. 0:10:12.996 --> 0:10:15.676 Uh, is there like a moment when you realize, oh, 0:10:15.716 --> 0:10:17.516 it's actually gonna work. We're doing this. 0:10:18.596 --> 0:10:22.116 You're you're always like holding your breath until your first approval, right, 0:10:22.196 --> 0:10:25.356 Like when the first time the government like approves one 0:10:25.396 --> 0:10:27.836 of your customers, you're like, yes, I have changed that 0:10:27.836 --> 0:10:29.476 person's life. And then they you know that. 0:10:29.996 --> 0:10:31.436 Do you remember that moment? 0:10:31.716 --> 0:10:31.956 Yeah? 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:33.516 What was what was the first approval? 0:10:34.156 --> 0:10:36.516 I mean it was this person that we have been 0:10:37.156 --> 0:10:42.516 helping and they I distinctly remember because they, you know, 0:10:42.676 --> 0:10:46.556 also used us for relationship therapy through this journey, right, 0:10:46.676 --> 0:10:50.116 and like, yeah, they call us and gives us updates 0:10:50.116 --> 0:10:52.396 about their life. And then we're all waiting because the 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:55.316 government you don't know how long the government process takes, 0:10:56.036 --> 0:10:58.556 and you're just going along this journey with them. And 0:10:58.596 --> 0:11:01.396 then finally when they when they are approved, that it's 0:11:01.436 --> 0:11:03.956 just this huge moment of relief. We had this gong 0:11:04.676 --> 0:11:08.676 in the office where it was it was a gift 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:13.596 from from an investor that we designated that we'll only 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:17.636 hit this, you know, when when someone finally gets approved, 0:11:18.476 --> 0:11:20.796 and so it was it was a huge moment when 0:11:20.796 --> 0:11:25.036 we were able to hit that gone and when was 0:11:25.076 --> 0:11:30.636 that that was it would be late. We released our 0:11:30.756 --> 0:11:35.076 product late twenty seventeen, and so this would be middle 0:11:35.116 --> 0:11:38.156 of twenty eighteen because when we got the first one. 0:11:37.916 --> 0:11:40.196 So it was it was five years ago that you 0:11:40.716 --> 0:11:44.356 basically helped your first customer, right, Like how many people 0:11:44.436 --> 0:11:47.476 now have you helped get Green cards, visas? 0:11:47.516 --> 0:11:50.076 Whatever? Yeah, so we're coming up to our one hundred 0:11:50.116 --> 0:11:52.116 thousand customer. 0:11:52.996 --> 0:11:55.676 Okay, so it worked, it's working. So that's what we're 0:11:55.876 --> 0:11:58.636 used just so we can get a sense, like, how 0:11:58.716 --> 0:12:02.316 is what you offer different than what an immigration attorney offers. 0:12:02.716 --> 0:12:06.636 I think it's there are three three areas, and I 0:12:06.636 --> 0:12:12.276 think we are just better. It'll be blunt. Yeah. The 0:12:12.356 --> 0:12:15.556 first is the accessibility part. Right, we are one third 0:12:15.836 --> 0:12:19.476 one fifth the price of traditional immigration attorneys and. 0:12:19.476 --> 0:12:21.636 So to a fifth the price. So by accessibility, I 0:12:21.636 --> 0:12:22.556 mean it's just cheaper. 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:24.636 It's far more affordable. 0:12:24.956 --> 0:12:28.116 I love cheaper, yeah. 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:31.076 For families, and you know, we offer a you know, 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:35.316 no credit check payment plan solution, so like people can 0:12:35.436 --> 0:12:38.716 also pay it over time, which they can't get access 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:40.956 to for a lot of our families with you know, 0:12:40.956 --> 0:12:43.436 no credit history in the US and everything like anywhere else. 0:12:44.836 --> 0:12:48.636 The second part is that you know we have this. 0:12:48.796 --> 0:12:51.356 We have a ninety nine point nine to seven percent 0:12:51.396 --> 0:12:54.716 approval rate over close to one hundred thousand applications, so 0:12:54.756 --> 0:12:58.596 we have a lot more insights into what works and 0:12:58.636 --> 0:13:01.756 how it works and what the government is looking for, uh, 0:13:01.836 --> 0:13:05.196 and and are able to to to to translate that 0:13:05.316 --> 0:13:08.756 back and give those benefits back to our customers. And 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:13.796 then the third is that you know we adapt to you. 0:13:14.436 --> 0:13:17.356 Unlike with the traditional attorney, we will operate at the 0:13:17.436 --> 0:13:18.676 speed that you operate at. 0:13:19.236 --> 0:13:22.836 So presumably it's cheaper in large part because your costs 0:13:22.876 --> 0:13:25.756 are a lot lower, because it's more efficient because what 0:13:26.116 --> 0:13:28.556 I mean, I imagine you don't always have to have 0:13:28.596 --> 0:13:29.796 an attorney, is that right? 0:13:29.956 --> 0:13:34.196 You know? When we first started, I was a persona 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:38.916 non grata at like the Association of Immigration Lawyer's Association. 0:13:40.156 --> 0:13:43.556 I mean, you're you're you're undercutting them, like you're you're 0:13:43.596 --> 0:13:46.076 coming for their business, like your business is to come 0:13:46.076 --> 0:13:48.756 for their their margin is your opportunity to quote your 0:13:48.796 --> 0:13:49.436 old boss. 0:13:49.716 --> 0:13:55.316 Yeah. So, uh, when we first went public with it, 0:13:55.436 --> 0:13:59.516 I received, presumably from an attorney because they quoted law here, 0:13:59.876 --> 0:14:05.516 an anonymous threatening letter with magazine cutouts like they think 0:14:05.556 --> 0:14:09.876 like a horror movies. Exactly, that's it, like shut down 0:14:09.916 --> 0:14:10.756 your business. 0:14:10.836 --> 0:14:14.396 Like yeah, but you're saying this this magazine cutout letter 0:14:14.476 --> 0:14:17.076 was like quoting specific statutes or something. 0:14:17.516 --> 0:14:20.396 It was talking about unauthorized practice of law in a 0:14:20.436 --> 0:14:23.276 way that you would only do it if you're amazing. 0:14:23.596 --> 0:14:24.956 Is it framed on your wall? 0:14:26.156 --> 0:14:30.636 Tragically during an office move, it disappeared somewhere, and I'm 0:14:30.636 --> 0:14:34.196 hoping I can find it in the box. So but 0:14:34.196 --> 0:14:37.276 but now I actually I'm not only on their advisory board, 0:14:37.356 --> 0:14:41.676 but I give presentations every year to their membership about 0:14:41.716 --> 0:14:46.276 the future of immigration law. Because ultimately, the goal here 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:49.316 is not to eliminate the attorney. The attorneys like do 0:14:49.436 --> 0:14:53.476 some really great work to help help families and help 0:14:54.236 --> 0:14:57.356 the system. The goal is to like take out all 0:14:57.396 --> 0:14:59.796 of the work that you don't need an attorney for 0:15:00.316 --> 0:15:01.916 and not have an attorney do it. 0:15:02.276 --> 0:15:05.876 This is a classic automation story, right, I mean, this is, 0:15:06.396 --> 0:15:10.356 you know, the automated spreadsheet, not putting accountants out of business, 0:15:10.356 --> 0:15:12.516 but meaning they don't have to like add columns of 0:15:12.596 --> 0:15:13.316 numbers anymore. 0:15:13.436 --> 0:15:14.996 Right Exactly. 0:15:17.956 --> 0:15:20.636 After the break the next problem Shao is trying to 0:15:20.676 --> 0:15:32.316 solve that Bountless. Now back to the show. So Shao 0:15:32.436 --> 0:15:34.876 got that threatening letter back when Boundless launched, and I 0:15:34.916 --> 0:15:39.076 asked him, what about now? Are lawyers still mad at Boundless? Now? 0:15:39.716 --> 0:15:45.156 I mean, at its core, the message has always been that, like, 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:48.556 if you use services like ours, they're not the traditional 0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:52.236 law firm, you are putting yourself at risk because you 0:15:52.276 --> 0:15:56.756 are potentially, you know, increasing your risk of getting bad 0:15:56.836 --> 0:16:01.796 advice or getting bad outcomes. Yeah, and my counter point 0:16:01.796 --> 0:16:03.876 to that is that we have done more cases in 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:06.876 any single law firm in our category, and we have 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:12.836 fantastic outcomes. Yeah, compelling carry some weight, I guess. Yeah. 0:16:13.076 --> 0:16:16.116 You've cited this figure of like over ninety nine percent success, 0:16:16.196 --> 0:16:19.796 which is a very striking figure, and I mean it 0:16:19.836 --> 0:16:21.756 makes me wonder like, is part of the key to 0:16:21.796 --> 0:16:24.356 that telling people when not to apply. I feel like 0:16:24.476 --> 0:16:26.716 the way you get to ninety nine percent success is 0:16:27.156 --> 0:16:29.356 tell people not to apply if you don't think they're going. 0:16:29.276 --> 0:16:32.756 To get it. But I think that that's very valuable. 0:16:32.556 --> 0:16:34.356 So the interest thing is not valuable. 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:38.356 We have we do have very clear eligibility criteria, and 0:16:38.436 --> 0:16:41.076 we base it off of what government publishes, and we 0:16:41.156 --> 0:16:43.276 base it off of the data that we've collected about 0:16:43.316 --> 0:16:46.476 how the government treats cases. So I'll give you an example. Like, 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:49.676 you know, before a government asks for you know, one 0:16:49.836 --> 0:16:52.676 year your your previous year tax returns to show your 0:16:52.756 --> 0:16:56.796 your income eligibility for sponsor somewhere for a green card. 0:16:57.676 --> 0:17:01.076 And what we started discovering as we're looking at our 0:17:01.116 --> 0:17:04.116 cases is that like, if you're close to the to 0:17:04.156 --> 0:17:07.796 the threshold, they actually want three years. And so for 0:17:07.916 --> 0:17:10.836 some people, like if you look at the last three years, 0:17:10.916 --> 0:17:13.756 it's not quite enough. And so you could you could 0:17:13.836 --> 0:17:16.076 do You could either send it in and hope for 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:18.956 the best right and and you know, collect their money, 0:17:18.956 --> 0:17:21.556 send it in cover the best, or you say, look, 0:17:21.676 --> 0:17:23.956 you know, we actually really think you need a joint 0:17:23.956 --> 0:17:26.716 sponsor or like a co sponsor, think of someone else 0:17:26.716 --> 0:17:29.516 who can backstop you in order for this to be successful. 0:17:30.196 --> 0:17:33.316 And you may be upset at us at boundless for 0:17:33.596 --> 0:17:36.956 asking for this, but we believe in setting you up 0:17:36.996 --> 0:17:38.716 for a positive outcome. 0:17:38.756 --> 0:17:41.276 Is part of your business data science, like as part 0:17:41.276 --> 0:17:43.556 of what you do, like mine your own data essentially 0:17:43.556 --> 0:17:45.796 to try and understand the patterns of how the government acts. 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:50.196 Yes, and like look at the data that the government 0:17:50.276 --> 0:17:54.196 is reporting that like they don't make it easy to understand. 0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:58.516 Like there we published once a report that showed that 0:17:58.716 --> 0:18:02.236 by by your zip code, your processing times for a 0:18:02.316 --> 0:18:05.996 green carve can matter dramatically. So there's like three cities 0:18:06.036 --> 0:18:09.396 within close proximity to each other in Florida and then 0:18:09.476 --> 0:18:13.716 also in Texas that if you're just thirty minutes away, 0:18:13.956 --> 0:18:17.756 you're six months faster on the processing. Wow. 0:18:18.316 --> 0:18:20.356 And you just saw that in the data, because. 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:22.636 We saw this in the data, and then we like 0:18:22.956 --> 0:18:27.756 publish it, and then the representatives of there's districts that 0:18:27.916 --> 0:18:30.356 went to you know you sah and be like, what's 0:18:30.396 --> 0:18:35.516 going on? And then USCS redistributed their workforce to like 0:18:35.676 --> 0:18:36.876 even some of these things out of a. 0:18:36.836 --> 0:18:39.996 Lot, that's a good one. That's a good one. What's 0:18:40.036 --> 0:18:42.636 the frontier, Like, what is the thing that you're trying 0:18:42.676 --> 0:18:45.276 to do next that you haven't figured out how to 0:18:45.276 --> 0:18:45.716 do yet? 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:49.436 Yeah, Like an area a real unlock that I want 0:18:49.476 --> 0:18:51.756 to figure out over this next year is how can 0:18:51.796 --> 0:18:58.636 we lower the barrier to employing immigrants because fundamentally, like 0:18:58.716 --> 0:19:02.156 all of these great talent are stuck at the you know, 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:07.716 Microsoft's metas, Amazons, Googles of the world and because it's 0:19:07.756 --> 0:19:09.796 safe and because they sponsor immigrant And there's so many 0:19:09.796 --> 0:19:12.236 small companies where you ask them in small business owners, 0:19:12.276 --> 0:19:13.916 you're like, hey, would you would you hire an immigrant? 0:19:14.076 --> 0:19:17.476 They're like absolutely not, not because they're anti immigrant, but 0:19:17.476 --> 0:19:19.996 because they don't have an HR team, they don't have resources, 0:19:20.036 --> 0:19:21.116 they don't like support. 0:19:21.396 --> 0:19:23.596 Just to be clear, you're talking about people who are 0:19:23.596 --> 0:19:26.916 here on work visas. It's just really hard for a 0:19:26.956 --> 0:19:29.676 company to employ an immigrant who's here on a work visa. 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:30.436 It's costly. 0:19:30.756 --> 0:19:35.236 It's perceived to be hard, and it is and costly. 0:19:35.716 --> 0:19:38.436 And so what I want to be able to do 0:19:38.636 --> 0:19:41.276 is take all of these loyens we figured out on 0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:45.156 the family side around how to navigate the government process, 0:19:45.196 --> 0:19:48.796 how to translate these forms, how to execute it effectively 0:19:48.916 --> 0:19:52.956 and efficiently, and basically lower that barrier. 0:19:53.876 --> 0:19:58.356 And so in that universe, the client is not the immigrant. 0:19:58.476 --> 0:20:01.076 The client is the employer or the would be employer 0:20:01.076 --> 0:20:03.036 who wants to hire someone here on a work visa 0:20:03.396 --> 0:20:05.876 but just can't deal with the paperwork. 0:20:05.396 --> 0:20:09.676 And the cost exactly. And I want to make it 0:20:09.756 --> 0:20:14.316 so easy that it's as if you're hiring a recruiter, right, 0:20:14.676 --> 0:20:18.556 and everyone's okay, now paying a recruiter some money to 0:20:18.996 --> 0:20:21.676 bring you a candidate. And I imagine if it's like 0:20:21.756 --> 0:20:24.276 that's just as much effort as it takes to actually 0:20:24.356 --> 0:20:28.876 hire an immigrant, it would open up so much talent 0:20:30.436 --> 0:20:33.716 and support all of these small and medium sized businesses 0:20:33.756 --> 0:20:34.996 around the country. 0:20:35.676 --> 0:20:39.996 What do you feel like you understand now about either 0:20:40.116 --> 0:20:43.636 immigration or the law that you didn't when you started 0:20:43.636 --> 0:20:44.116 a company. 0:20:45.316 --> 0:20:52.876 I thought that immigration is a pretty clear win, and 0:20:52.916 --> 0:20:55.036 I thought that that would be an easy sell, Like 0:20:55.076 --> 0:20:59.236 even the concept of hey, we like, who wants bureaucracy? 0:20:59.396 --> 0:21:03.516 No one right, who wants additional folks like held in limbo, Like, 0:21:03.916 --> 0:21:09.596 no one who doesn't want economic prosperity. And it's amazed 0:21:09.676 --> 0:21:12.556 me or you know that have learned in this is 0:21:12.596 --> 0:21:18.596 that numbers don't really matter and and and it's it's 0:21:18.996 --> 0:21:22.076 you know, kind of tragic and and disappointing obviously as 0:21:22.116 --> 0:21:24.596 someone who you know, who studied economics. And then before 0:21:24.716 --> 0:21:27.596 it's like, you know, like this is something that I 0:21:27.636 --> 0:21:30.396 have been in rooms with very hard right wingers and 0:21:30.556 --> 0:21:33.596 very hard left wingers and everyone agrees on the solution. 0:21:34.756 --> 0:21:38.716 And and like there is a core piece of you know, 0:21:39.356 --> 0:21:43.876 of immigration reform that the majority of people actually agree 0:21:43.916 --> 0:21:47.356 to behind closed doors. If you have to combine you know, 0:21:47.476 --> 0:21:50.676 DACA and codify that into the program, the H one 0:21:50.716 --> 0:21:54.316 B and skilled immigration reform that we're talking about, you know, uh, 0:21:55.076 --> 0:21:57.356 lifting some of the green car caps and countries and 0:21:57.396 --> 0:21:59.996 getting people to start working sooner instead of just sitting 0:22:00.036 --> 0:22:02.836 around waiting to be able to work. You know, uh, 0:22:03.196 --> 0:22:06.236 you verify some sort of like way of like you know, 0:22:06.476 --> 0:22:10.796 holding companies accountable for hiring legal documented democrats. And this 0:22:10.836 --> 0:22:14.436 is the part that you know, I again, like I 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:16.716 thought that I was coming at it from a world 0:22:16.756 --> 0:22:19.396