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Speaker 1: Pushkin. When we first went public with it, I received,

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Speaker 1: presumably from an attorney because they quoted law here, an

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Speaker 1: anonymous threatening letter with magazine cutouts like they think, like

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Speaker 1: eighties horror movie.

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Speaker 2: Style, like a kidnapping letter exactly.

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Speaker 1: That said like shut down your business, Like yeah, but.

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Speaker 2: You're saying this. This magazine cutout letter was like quoting

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Speaker 2: specific statutes or something.

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Speaker 1: It was talking about unauthorized practice of law in a

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Speaker 1: way that you would only do it if you were

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Speaker 1: an attorney.

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Speaker 2: Amazing. Is it framed on your wall?

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Speaker 1: Tragically during an office move, it disappeared somewhere.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem? The

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Speaker 2: show where I talk to people who are trying to

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Speaker 2: technological progress. My guest today is Shao Wang. He's the

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Speaker 2: founder of a company called Boundless. Chao's problem is this,

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Speaker 2: how do you make it cheaper and easier for people

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Speaker 2: to deal with immigration law or to frame it in

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Speaker 2: a bigger way. How do you use technology to bring

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Speaker 2: down costs in a bureaucratic, slow moving field where, by

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Speaker 2: the way, the incumbents don't want you. Joo moved to

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Speaker 2: the US from China when he was three years old.

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Speaker 2: He grew up, and he worked a lot of places

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Speaker 2: at McKinsey and at the New York Department of Education

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Speaker 2: and at Amazon, before he ever had the idea to

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Speaker 2: try to do anything about immigration.

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Speaker 1: I had always taken it for granted that immigration is

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Speaker 1: really hard. And if you grow up, like all of

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Speaker 1: the friends, all of your circles around, everyone has their

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Speaker 1: own struggle with the immigration system. And it always becomes

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Speaker 1: a running joke around who had the toughest time, how

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Speaker 1: many hours they were stuck in some back ron room

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Speaker 1: and some concert or some airport, like the just constant

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Speaker 1: stories about the fraughtness and the turmoil of being an immigrant.

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Speaker 1: And I had always just taken for granted that that's

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Speaker 1: just the way things were, That's just life. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the sun comes up. Yeah, people struggle with immigration.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until twenty sixteen. I'm almost ashamed to

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Speaker 1: talk about it this way, but it's like, is this

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Speaker 1: the first time, late twenty sixteen that I actually asked

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Speaker 1: a question why? Well, someone asked me the question why

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Speaker 1: is immigration so hard?

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Speaker 2: What was the context? Who asked you? That?

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Speaker 1: It was someone who is someone in their office just

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Speaker 1: went through an immigration process, foreign national married uses and

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Speaker 1: had to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on their

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Speaker 1: immigration attorney had a terrible experience, and the question was like,

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Speaker 1: why is this whole thing so hard, so expensive? And

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Speaker 1: they asked me because I was the I guess, the

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Speaker 1: most immigrant looking person in the room, and I, uh,

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Speaker 1: I said, that's a really good question. I have never

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Speaker 1: thought that as like why. And the more that I

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Speaker 1: like dug into why, like you know, you get to

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Speaker 1: the point where you just learn too much. Right. I

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Speaker 1: talked to hundreds of families, lawyers, government folks, and you

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Speaker 1: realize that, like this, this has to be solved. It

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Speaker 1: was unbelievable to me that this problem has existed for

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Speaker 1: generations in the same way where every other you know,

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Speaker 1: related field has like modernized or used data or used technology,

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Speaker 1: or become more personalized, or become more efficient, or become

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Speaker 1: more affordable or accessible, and immigration is stuck the same

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Speaker 1: way that I did it with my parents. And the

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Speaker 1: only thing that has changed in the thirty years that

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Speaker 1: I've been in this country is that there are over

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Speaker 1: five times has been the immigration attorneys. Even though the

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Speaker 1: annual number of immigrants has stayed relatively the same and

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Speaker 1: the prices have gone up, and so you put that

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Speaker 1: You're like this, I can't not do something about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean one like what you're like, how hasn't anybody

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Speaker 2: done anything about this? But like it's the government and

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Speaker 2: it's lawyers, and you know, to some extent people want

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Speaker 2: immigration to be hard, right, to some extent politically bureaucratically,

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Speaker 2: people want immigration to be hard. So it doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to me to be an obviously solvable or addressable problem

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Speaker 2: that you're sort of setting out to solve or address.

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Speaker 1: Where were you in my life in twenty six and

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Speaker 1: it was like, by by February of twenty seventeen, I

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Speaker 1: felt like I like I had an idea, right, I

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Speaker 1: felt like, hey, we can make this more accessible that

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Speaker 1: you know, this fundamentally is an information problem, right where

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Speaker 1: you have all of these people who want to know

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Speaker 1: and want to understand immigration, wanted to operate, and then

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Speaker 1: you have only two groups of people that actually know

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Speaker 1: what to do. You have the federal government who is

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Speaker 1: again and uh make things opaque and doesn't release the information.

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Speaker 1: And then you have immigration attorneys that are financially incentivized

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Speaker 1: to be the only arbiters of this information and so

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Speaker 1: this is like you know, from someone who you know

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Speaker 1: my background, Like I tried to like transform the public

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Speaker 1: education system that has been stuck in the same way.

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Speaker 2: To be clear, you worked for the New York City

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Speaker 2: Department of ED right, that's yes.

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Speaker 1: And we launched new schools that tried different things like

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Speaker 1: making school eleven months of the year and using technology

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Speaker 1: different ways. Even at Amazon, there's like, how do we

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Speaker 1: change physical retail where we launched Amazon Go and just

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Speaker 1: work out where you can just take something and you

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Speaker 1: leave and there's no checkout Like this, in my mind

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Speaker 1: is another example of something that has been operating in

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Speaker 1: the same way for generations and there has to be

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Speaker 1: an opportunity for us to change that. And how can

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Speaker 1: I help every family you know, have the confidence and

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Speaker 1: the support and the services that you know previously were

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Speaker 1: only available to those who could pay thousands and thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars for attorneys.

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Speaker 2: And so you have this as the like big lofty,

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Speaker 2: you know idea behind starting the company. Is there some

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Speaker 2: particular service, some particular immigration related thing that is your

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Speaker 2: sort of your wedge, your first thing you're going to try.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the way that I looked at it was

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Speaker 1: first it had to have a shorter timeline, right, So

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Speaker 1: I needed to be able to show that we if

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Speaker 1: you use us, it'll work. And if it takes years

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Speaker 1: for something to get reviewed and approved, then like I

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Speaker 1: don't have testimonials. Why would you trust your life to

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Speaker 1: a company that doesn't work? And then the second part

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Speaker 1: is is that it should be uncapped so we can

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Speaker 1: like you know, create and have enough market to to

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Speaker 1: create a adventure scalable business.

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Speaker 2: And so just to be clear but un kept, I

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Speaker 2: mean there are some some things like what the H

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Speaker 2: one B visa for skilled workers where the government limits

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Speaker 2: the number of people, and so you don't want to

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Speaker 2: do something with a small number of people. You want

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Speaker 2: to do something with a large number of people so

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Speaker 2: that there's a big market for your service. That's exactly yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: and then so quick turn uncapped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then folks that I can acquire affordably through

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Speaker 1: digital marketing means.

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Speaker 2: Just classic online business. You want a relatively low customer

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Speaker 2: acquisition cars.

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Speaker 1: I want to be able to find something that people

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Speaker 1: are actually searching for and are willing to like willing

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Speaker 1: to to to you know, come learn about a new

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Speaker 1: way of doing something that that that doesn't involve going

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Speaker 1: into a mahogany clad office and like handing someone in

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Speaker 1: the suit and tie all of your information. And so

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Speaker 1: the first first wedge as that we picked was was

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Speaker 1: around marriage green cards. So this is a US citizen

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Speaker 1: who has fallen in love with and gotten married to

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Speaker 1: a foreign national and now either wants to be able

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Speaker 1: to help them stay in the country or bring them

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Speaker 1: to the.

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Speaker 2: Country, okay, and get them a green card, get basically

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Speaker 2: a permanent resident status exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it has a top priority of on what

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Speaker 1: the government reviews and.

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Speaker 2: Quickly. It means it gets done quickly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of people, lots of US citizens are

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Speaker 2: married to people who are not US citizens.

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Speaker 1: Three to four hundred thousand the year, okay.

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Speaker 2: And they're out there doing Google searches how do I

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Speaker 2: get a green card for my spouse?

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Speaker 1: Exactly to the point where you know, we were getting

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Speaker 1: paying customers, like it was such a high need that

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Speaker 1: we were getting paying customers before like our product is

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Speaker 1: even done, right, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So what you have, like the website is up

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Speaker 2: and people are like trying to get you to get

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Speaker 2: them help them get a spouse a green card, but

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Speaker 2: you don't sort of have your act together yet or

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Speaker 2: what's going on there?

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Speaker 1: I mean embarrassingly is that like we we have the

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Speaker 1: first parts we want to learn, right, and it's like

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Speaker 1: that demantra at the time is MVP and like get

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Speaker 1: things out there, just do a thing. Yeah, And we

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Speaker 1: didn't expect people to get as far through the process

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Speaker 1: as they ended up doing, to a point where and

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Speaker 1: we've actually we actually had to like add things, you know,

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Speaker 1: in real time, as like somebody's.

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Speaker 2: Going refreshed and you're like trying to make the webs.

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Speaker 1: Like something isn't working, and so we're like making a

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Speaker 1: quick fix and they're like, hey, maybe you should refresh

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Speaker 1: your browser and see if it, you know, if it works.

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Speaker 2: And are you literally sort of building an online pathway

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Speaker 2: so they can like fill out the forms to get

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Speaker 2: a spousal green card? Is it like that real? Is

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Speaker 2: that what's happening?

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Speaker 1: I mean? The idea here is that if we can

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Speaker 1: translate complex government forms and requirements into steps that everyone

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Speaker 1: can follow and feel confident in, then you could go

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Speaker 1: end to end and be able to like get through

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Speaker 1: a process that previously took again months on your own

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Speaker 1: and do it in a couple of hours.

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Speaker 2: Uh, is there like a moment when you realize, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's actually gonna work. We're doing this.

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Speaker 1: You're you're always like holding your breath until your first approval, right,

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Speaker 1: Like when the first time the government like approves one

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Speaker 1: of your customers, you're like, yes, I have changed that

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Speaker 1: person's life. And then they you know that.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember that moment?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: What was what was the first approval?

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Speaker 1: I mean it was this person that we have been

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Speaker 1: helping and they I distinctly remember because they, you know,

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Speaker 1: also used us for relationship therapy through this journey, right,

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Speaker 1: and like, yeah, they call us and gives us updates

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Speaker 1: about their life. And then we're all waiting because the

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Speaker 1: government you don't know how long the government process takes,

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Speaker 1: and you're just going along this journey with them. And

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Speaker 1: then finally when they when they are approved, that it's

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Speaker 1: just this huge moment of relief. We had this gong

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Speaker 1: in the office where it was it was a gift

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Speaker 1: from from an investor that we designated that we'll only

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Speaker 1: hit this, you know, when when someone finally gets approved,

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Speaker 1: and so it was it was a huge moment when

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Speaker 1: we were able to hit that gone and when was

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Speaker 1: that that was it would be late. We released our

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Speaker 1: product late twenty seventeen, and so this would be middle

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Speaker 1: of twenty eighteen because when we got the first one.

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Speaker 2: So it was it was five years ago that you

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Speaker 2: basically helped your first customer, right, Like how many people

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Speaker 2: now have you helped get Green cards, visas?

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Speaker 1: Whatever? Yeah, so we're coming up to our one hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand customer.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it worked, it's working. So that's what we're

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Speaker 2: used just so we can get a sense, like, how

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Speaker 2: is what you offer different than what an immigration attorney offers.

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Speaker 1: I think it's there are three three areas, and I

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Speaker 1: think we are just better. It'll be blunt. Yeah. The

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Speaker 1: first is the accessibility part. Right, we are one third

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Speaker 1: one fifth the price of traditional immigration attorneys and.

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Speaker 2: So to a fifth the price. So by accessibility, I

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Speaker 2: mean it's just cheaper.

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Speaker 1: It's far more affordable.

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Speaker 2: I love cheaper, yeah.

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Speaker 1: For families, and you know, we offer a you know,

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Speaker 1: no credit check payment plan solution, so like people can

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Speaker 1: also pay it over time, which they can't get access

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Speaker 1: to for a lot of our families with you know,

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Speaker 1: no credit history in the US and everything like anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: The second part is that you know we have this.

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Speaker 1: We have a ninety nine point nine to seven percent

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Speaker 1: approval rate over close to one hundred thousand applications, so

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Speaker 1: we have a lot more insights into what works and

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Speaker 1: how it works and what the government is looking for, uh,

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Speaker 1: and and are able to to to to translate that

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Speaker 1: back and give those benefits back to our customers. And

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Speaker 1: then the third is that you know we adapt to you.

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Speaker 1: Unlike with the traditional attorney, we will operate at the

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Speaker 1: speed that you operate at.

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Speaker 2: So presumably it's cheaper in large part because your costs

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Speaker 2: are a lot lower, because it's more efficient because what

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Speaker 2: I mean, I imagine you don't always have to have

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Speaker 2: an attorney, is that right?

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Speaker 1: You know? When we first started, I was a persona

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Speaker 1: non grata at like the Association of Immigration Lawyer's Association.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're you're you're undercutting them, like you're you're

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Speaker 2: coming for their business, like your business is to come

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Speaker 2: for their their margin is your opportunity to quote your

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Speaker 2: old boss.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, uh, when we first went public with it,

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Speaker 1: I received, presumably from an attorney because they quoted law here,

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Speaker 1: an anonymous threatening letter with magazine cutouts like they think

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Speaker 1: like a horror movies. Exactly, that's it, like shut down

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Speaker 1: your business.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, but you're saying this this magazine cutout letter

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Speaker 2: was like quoting specific statutes or something.

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Speaker 1: It was talking about unauthorized practice of law in a

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Speaker 1: way that you would only do it if you're amazing.

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Speaker 2: Is it framed on your wall?

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Speaker 1: Tragically during an office move, it disappeared somewhere, and I'm

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Speaker 1: hoping I can find it in the box. So but

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Speaker 1: but now I actually I'm not only on their advisory board,

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Speaker 1: but I give presentations every year to their membership about

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Speaker 1: the future of immigration law. Because ultimately, the goal here

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Speaker 1: is not to eliminate the attorney. The attorneys like do

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Speaker 1: some really great work to help help families and help

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Speaker 1: the system. The goal is to like take out all

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Speaker 1: of the work that you don't need an attorney for

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Speaker 1: and not have an attorney do it.

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Speaker 2: This is a classic automation story, right, I mean, this is,

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Speaker 2: you know, the automated spreadsheet, not putting accountants out of business,

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Speaker 2: but meaning they don't have to like add columns of

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Speaker 2: numbers anymore.

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Speaker 1: Right Exactly.

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Speaker 2: After the break the next problem Shao is trying to

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Speaker 2: solve that Bountless. Now back to the show. So Shao

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Speaker 2: got that threatening letter back when Boundless launched, and I

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Speaker 2: asked him, what about now? Are lawyers still mad at Boundless? Now?

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Speaker 1: I mean, at its core, the message has always been that, like,

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Speaker 1: if you use services like ours, they're not the traditional

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Speaker 1: law firm, you are putting yourself at risk because you

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Speaker 1: are potentially, you know, increasing your risk of getting bad

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Speaker 1: advice or getting bad outcomes. Yeah, and my counter point

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Speaker 1: to that is that we have done more cases in

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Speaker 1: any single law firm in our category, and we have

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Speaker 1: fantastic outcomes. Yeah, compelling carry some weight, I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You've cited this figure of like over ninety nine percent success,

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Speaker 2: which is a very striking figure, and I mean it

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Speaker 2: makes me wonder like, is part of the key to

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Speaker 2: that telling people when not to apply. I feel like

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Speaker 2: the way you get to ninety nine percent success is

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Speaker 2: tell people not to apply if you don't think they're going.

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Speaker 1: To get it. But I think that that's very valuable.

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Speaker 2: So the interest thing is not valuable.

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Speaker 1: We have we do have very clear eligibility criteria, and

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Speaker 1: we base it off of what government publishes, and we

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Speaker 1: base it off of the data that we've collected about

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Speaker 1: how the government treats cases. So I'll give you an example. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, before a government asks for you know, one

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Speaker 1: year your your previous year tax returns to show your

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Speaker 1: your income eligibility for sponsor somewhere for a green card.

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Speaker 1: And what we started discovering as we're looking at our

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Speaker 1: cases is that like, if you're close to the to

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Speaker 1: the threshold, they actually want three years. And so for

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Speaker 1: some people, like if you look at the last three years,

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Speaker 1: it's not quite enough. And so you could you could

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Speaker 1: do You could either send it in and hope for

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Speaker 1: the best right and and you know, collect their money,

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Speaker 1: send it in cover the best, or you say, look,

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Speaker 1: you know, we actually really think you need a joint

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Speaker 1: sponsor or like a co sponsor, think of someone else

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Speaker 1: who can backstop you in order for this to be successful.

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Speaker 1: And you may be upset at us at boundless for

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Speaker 1: asking for this, but we believe in setting you up

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Speaker 1: for a positive outcome.

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Speaker 2: Is part of your business data science, like as part

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Speaker 2: of what you do, like mine your own data essentially

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Speaker 2: to try and understand the patterns of how the government acts.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and like look at the data that the government

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Speaker 1: is reporting that like they don't make it easy to understand.

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Speaker 1: Like there we published once a report that showed that

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Speaker 1: by by your zip code, your processing times for a

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Speaker 1: green carve can matter dramatically. So there's like three cities

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Speaker 1: within close proximity to each other in Florida and then

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Speaker 1: also in Texas that if you're just thirty minutes away,

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Speaker 1: you're six months faster on the processing. Wow.

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Speaker 2: And you just saw that in the data, because.

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Speaker 1: We saw this in the data, and then we like

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Speaker 1: publish it, and then the representatives of there's districts that

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Speaker 1: went to you know you sah and be like, what's

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Speaker 1: going on? And then USCS redistributed their workforce to like

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Speaker 1: even some of these things out of a.

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Speaker 2: Lot, that's a good one. That's a good one. What's

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Speaker 2: the frontier, Like, what is the thing that you're trying

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Speaker 2: to do next that you haven't figured out how to

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Speaker 2: do yet?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like an area a real unlock that I want

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Speaker 1: to figure out over this next year is how can

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Speaker 1: we lower the barrier to employing immigrants because fundamentally, like

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Speaker 1: all of these great talent are stuck at the you know,

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Speaker 1: Microsoft's metas, Amazons, Googles of the world and because it's

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Speaker 1: safe and because they sponsor immigrant And there's so many

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Speaker 1: small companies where you ask them in small business owners,

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Speaker 1: you're like, hey, would you would you hire an immigrant?

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Speaker 1: They're like absolutely not, not because they're anti immigrant, but

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Speaker 1: because they don't have an HR team, they don't have resources,

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Speaker 1: they don't like support.

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Speaker 2: Just to be clear, you're talking about people who are

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Speaker 2: here on work visas. It's just really hard for a

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Speaker 2: company to employ an immigrant who's here on a work visa.

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Speaker 2: It's costly.

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Speaker 1: It's perceived to be hard, and it is and costly.

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Speaker 1: And so what I want to be able to do

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Speaker 1: is take all of these loyens we figured out on

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Speaker 1: the family side around how to navigate the government process,

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Speaker 1: how to translate these forms, how to execute it effectively

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Speaker 1: and efficiently, and basically lower that barrier.

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Speaker 2: And so in that universe, the client is not the immigrant.

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Speaker 2: The client is the employer or the would be employer

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Speaker 2: who wants to hire someone here on a work visa

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Speaker 2: but just can't deal with the paperwork.

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Speaker 1: And the cost exactly. And I want to make it

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Speaker 1: so easy that it's as if you're hiring a recruiter, right,

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Speaker 1: and everyone's okay, now paying a recruiter some money to

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Speaker 1: bring you a candidate. And I imagine if it's like

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Speaker 1: that's just as much effort as it takes to actually

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Speaker 1: hire an immigrant, it would open up so much talent

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Speaker 1: and support all of these small and medium sized businesses

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Speaker 1: around the country.

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Speaker 2: What do you feel like you understand now about either

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Speaker 2: immigration or the law that you didn't when you started

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Speaker 2: a company.

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Speaker 1: I thought that immigration is a pretty clear win, and

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Speaker 1: I thought that that would be an easy sell, Like

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Speaker 1: even the concept of hey, we like, who wants bureaucracy?

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Speaker 1: No one right, who wants additional folks like held in limbo, Like,

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Speaker 1: no one who doesn't want economic prosperity. And it's amazed

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Speaker 1: me or you know that have learned in this is

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Speaker 1: that numbers don't really matter and and and it's it's

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of tragic and and disappointing obviously as

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Speaker 1: someone who you know, who studied economics. And then before

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, like this is something that I

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Speaker 1: have been in rooms with very hard right wingers and

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Speaker 1: very hard left wingers and everyone agrees on the solution.

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Speaker 1: And and like there is a core piece of you know,

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Speaker 1: of immigration reform that the majority of people actually agree

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Speaker 1: to behind closed doors. If you have to combine you know,

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Speaker 1: DACA and codify that into the program, the H one

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Speaker 1: B and skilled immigration reform that we're talking about, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: lifting some of the green car caps and countries and

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Speaker 1: getting people to start working sooner instead of just sitting

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Speaker 1: around waiting to be able to work. You know, uh,

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Speaker 1: you verify some sort of like way of like you know,

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Speaker 1: holding companies accountable for hiring legal documented democrats. And this

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Speaker 1: is the part that you know, I again, like I

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Speaker 1: thought that I was coming at it from a world

401
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Speaker 1: where like everyone should be in favor of what we're doing.

402
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Speaker 1: And yeah, America has this one monopoly on the world, right,

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Speaker 1: which is that people from all around the world who

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Speaker 1: wanted to create the best lives for themselves, like my

405
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Speaker 1: parents did, like you know, come here because of that opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And we continually, year after year actively try to you know,

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Speaker 1: diminish that that advantage that we have. And it's just

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Speaker 1: it was just so surprising to me the level of

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Speaker 1: animosity towards something that should be universally like appreciated, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the appropriate nuances around it, but like it directionally

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Speaker 1: should be we should all be on the same edge.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round,

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Speaker 2: including what Shall learned when he sold vacuum cleaners on

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Speaker 2: commission in high school. Back to the show. Let's finish

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Speaker 2: with the lightning round, and in your case, I want

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Speaker 2: to do I want to do a lightning round about

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Speaker 2: your resume, about your employment history, because it's a really

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Speaker 2: interesting employment history, and maybe there's different ways to do it,

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Speaker 2: but let's try this. Let's try. I'm going to name

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Speaker 2: a bunch of the jobs you've held, and I want

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Speaker 2: you to tell me one thing you learned at each job.

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Speaker 2: When you were in high school, you sold vacuum cleaners

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Speaker 2: and microwaves on commission at sears.

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Speaker 1: I learn how to understand what people want. I'm a

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Speaker 1: Chinese male, sixteen year old. My customers were fifty year

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Speaker 1: old women and when I approach them, they are not

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Speaker 1: thinking this man is a savant of house cleaning. And

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Speaker 1: so how can I quickly get them to to to

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Speaker 1: tell me what they're really looking for, what problem they're

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Speaker 1: really is trying to solve, so that I can like

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Speaker 1: get them to right, you know, piece of equipment to solve.

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Speaker 1: It was something that was invaluable for me.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I was much more interested in hearing

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Speaker 2: about your job selling vacuums at Sears than I am

435
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Speaker 2: in hearing about your job at mackenzie. But I'm curious,

436
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Speaker 2: what is one thing you learned at McKenzie.

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Speaker 1: I I learned how to maximize time. Like, you never

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Speaker 1: have enough time and there's always more to do, and

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Speaker 1: so in the world where you can never feel like

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Speaker 1: you're done with work, what is the way that you

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Speaker 1: can create time?

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Speaker 2: Can you give me one little tip of how I

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00:25:18,356 --> 00:25:19,356
Speaker 2: can create time.

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00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:25,556
Speaker 1: It's about letting go. And so the more that I

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00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:30,076
Speaker 1: tapped into other resources and other folks that can work

446
00:25:30,116 --> 00:25:37,676
Speaker 1: in parallel doing something, then the less sequential waiting for

447
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:39,476
Speaker 1: each step of the process to get done.

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00:25:39,716 --> 00:25:42,956
Speaker 2: What's one thing you learned when you were Director of

449
00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:46,236
Speaker 2: Innovation and Design at the New York City Department of Education.

450
00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:52,636
Speaker 1: True progress doesn't care about how smart or right you

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00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:53,196
Speaker 1: think you are.

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00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:57,236
Speaker 2: In my mind, there this is the hot shot mckensey.

453
00:25:58,156 --> 00:26:00,876
Speaker 2: Analysts showing up at the Department of Ed ready to

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00:26:00,916 --> 00:26:03,236
Speaker 2: solve all their problems exactly.

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00:26:03,796 --> 00:26:07,076
Speaker 1: And I'm embarrassed right because I made a clown out

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00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:09,956
Speaker 1: of myself in many kinds of situations because I thought

457
00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:12,316
Speaker 1: I knew the answer, and I thought, like everything that's

458
00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,516
Speaker 1: been doing right now is failing our kids. And while

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00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:18,596
Speaker 1: like no one disagree with the outcomes that that, you know,

460
00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:25,956
Speaker 1: we were struggling with the way to actually get principles, parents, teachers, students,

461
00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:31,276
Speaker 1: bus drivers, you know, lunch ladies, you know, cable companies

462
00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:36,596
Speaker 1: to all actually want to help you requires more than

463
00:26:36,636 --> 00:26:38,796
Speaker 1: you thinking that you're you're you know, you have the

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00:26:38,796 --> 00:26:40,676
Speaker 1: answer and everyone else has been screwing it up for

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Speaker 1: the whole time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's the end of the sort of resume

467
00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:47,076
Speaker 2: lightning round. Now let's do a little classic style lightning round.

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00:26:47,956 --> 00:26:50,596
Speaker 2: What is one tip for that scary moment when you're

469
00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:52,996
Speaker 2: you know, entering a country and you have to show

470
00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 2: your passport to the customs officials or the border guard

471
00:26:55,516 --> 00:26:58,476
Speaker 2: or whatever. Do you have any professional advice for how

472
00:26:58,476 --> 00:26:59,916
Speaker 2: to deal with that interaction.

473
00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:07,356
Speaker 1: Don't lie. I don't know what gets into people where

474
00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:13,676
Speaker 1: they will just start saying things that are not totally true.

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00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:17,196
Speaker 1: It's a you know, if you don't need to answer

476
00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:18,676
Speaker 1: more than they ask for.

477
00:27:19,916 --> 00:27:20,716
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

478
00:27:21,036 --> 00:27:25,156
Speaker 1: But don't make anything off because that gets far. It

479
00:27:25,316 --> 00:27:26,996
Speaker 1: turns into a far worse situation.

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00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:30,436
Speaker 2: If everything goes well, what problem will you be trying

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00:27:30,476 --> 00:27:32,116
Speaker 2: to solve in five years?

482
00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:37,996
Speaker 1: How can we make every person in the world be

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00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:42,316
Speaker 1: able to live where they want, be with the person

484
00:27:42,356 --> 00:27:46,876
Speaker 1: they want, and achieve the life that they want.

485
00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:52,236
Speaker 2: By every person in the world in five years is audacious.

486
00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:56,876
Speaker 2: I mean, you do now offer people payment plans, right,

487
00:27:56,996 --> 00:27:59,916
Speaker 2: so you are already in the business of extending credit

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00:27:59,996 --> 00:28:02,636
Speaker 2: to people. Do you think you might get into the

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00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:03,996
Speaker 2: financial services business?

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00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:07,476
Speaker 1: I want people to thrive, all right, and there's so

491
00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:11,356
Speaker 1: many barriers, like and I'm not saying this to be

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00:28:11,516 --> 00:28:12,996
Speaker 1: like facetious anything.

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00:28:13,036 --> 00:28:14,196
Speaker 2: It's a coy answer.

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00:28:14,396 --> 00:28:17,476
Speaker 1: It's a coy It's like, I don't want people to

495
00:28:17,596 --> 00:28:22,956
Speaker 1: be like I want to remove every barrier possible between

496
00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:26,716
Speaker 1: you and the life that you want to achieve. I

497
00:28:26,756 --> 00:28:29,356
Speaker 1: want to help people go and live anywhere in the

498
00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:30,956
Speaker 1: world that they want. So if you can think of

499
00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:33,276
Speaker 1: that as a global like peace, I want to help

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00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:37,116
Speaker 1: people like be able to establish themselves well in that world.

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00:28:37,876 --> 00:28:40,676
Speaker 2: So that's that's basically financial services. If I want to

502
00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:44,876
Speaker 2: make a specific version of establish themselves, I think financial.

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00:28:44,476 --> 00:28:49,476
Speaker 1: Services, Yeah, I think you know, healthcare, education, family based

504
00:28:49,476 --> 00:28:52,956
Speaker 1: things like yeah, I mean I pick, I pick boundless

505
00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:56,676
Speaker 1: for a reason. Right, we are not like IMMIGRATIONUS dot com.

506
00:28:57,076 --> 00:29:00,916
Speaker 2: But everything for everybody dot everything.

507
00:29:01,916 --> 00:29:03,916
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a pretty good TAM. Right.

508
00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:14,196
Speaker 2: PAM, by the way, stands for total addressable market, so

509
00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:17,156
Speaker 2: measure of how big a business could theoretically be someday,

510
00:29:17,596 --> 00:29:20,196
Speaker 2: and show here is saying unless might someday.

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00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:21,116
Speaker 1: Be very very big.

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Speaker 2: Today's show was produced by Edith Russelo, edited by Sarah Nix,

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00:29:26,756 --> 00:29:28,276
Speaker 2: and engineered by Amanda K.

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Speaker 1: Wall.

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Speaker 2: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot fm,

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00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:34,076
Speaker 2: or you can find me on Twitter at Jacob Goldstein.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with

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Speaker 2: another episode of What's Your Problem