WEBVTT - Manafort Is In the Clear Because of Double Jeopardy 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.360 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grassoe from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.360 Former Trump campaign manager Paul Manifort is in the clear. 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:14.720 He no longer has to worry about the threat of 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.439 spending time in jail again. The manhattander's attempt to bring 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.880 a pardon proof case against Manafort has been foiled by 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.599 the state's top appeals court. Manafort was convicted of federal 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:29.560 financial crime and illegal lobbying charges and sentenced in twenty 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.479 nineteen to seven and a half years in prison. But 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.720 as Manhattan d A. Cyrus Vans and others anticipated Trump 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.680 pardon Manafort, two lower courts in New York had previously 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.720 ruled that Vance's case, which alleged mortgage fraud in other crimes, 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.519 was so similar to the federal case that it was 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.800 barred by the double jeopardy law. Joining me, as former 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.920 federal prosecutor Jennifer Rogers, who teaches at Columbia Law School, 0:00:55.320 --> 0:01:00.480 the constitution bars double jeopardy, but the Supreme Court has 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:06.200 made an exception for federal and state crimes. Explained that, well, 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.440 I don't know that I would call it an exception. 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.600 It basically the double jeopardy premises that you can't be 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:17.040 tried twice for the same crime by the same government. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.040 So in the federal system, that means that, you know, 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.759 if the U. S. Attorney charges you for bank fraud, um, 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.480 they can't turn around and later charge you again for 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.320 the same thank fraud. Nor can another US turney charge 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.839 you for that same bank fraud. But it doesn't apply 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:39.160 to other governments. So you know, we certainly don't have 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.960 any control over foreign government. So the US government can't 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.800 stop save France from charging someone for a crime even 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.200 if it's been charged in the US. But similarly, under 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.240 our federal system of government, the states are all separate 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.320 sovereigns as well, So the double jeopardy prohibition on charging 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:02.640 someone twice for the same time doesn't apply to a 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.440 state charge. So that's kind of generally speaking what the 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:11.800 federal constitution prohibition on double jeopardy sense. But in this case, 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.480 New York had its own double jeopardy law, that's right. 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.760 So you know, all citizens are entitled to the protections 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.079 of the U. S. Constitution. That's kind of the floor, 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.720 that's the baseline, But states are also free in their 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:31.440 own constitutions to give their own citizens or protections, and 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.120 New York State is a state that does, in fact 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.240 to give its citizens more protection than the Federal Constitution 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:40.640 does in a whole bunch of areas. But one of 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:45.160 those areas is in the double jeopardy context. So in 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.400 New York State, it's not the case that if you 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.080 are charged in a federal case and you get to 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.560 the jeopardy point, which is either a conviction or um 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.880 swearing in the jury at a trial, that you can 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.560 charged with that same crime in the state. In fact, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:08.760 you can't be, except in certain limited circumstances. So in 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.960 New York State, if you've been charged and convicted by 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:16.440 the SAIDs for specific conduct, you cannot be charged by 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:21.400 the state unless an exception applies. If you could describe 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.480 the charges that Vance brought and how he thought that 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.520 they were different from the federal charges, Yeah, that's a 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:34.320 really good question, because when all of this was happening 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.240 and he started to hear reporting that Syvance was going 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:43.280 to bring charges, legal observers were talking about, what are 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.040 those charges gonna look like? Clearly he must have something 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:51.320 different to charge, right, you know, it's generally speaking mortgage fraud, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.560 bank fraud types of charges, but a lot of us 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.800 thought that you know, maybe there were specific you know, 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.800 reporting requirements in this date, that maybe he filled out 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.440 some false forms that are only chargeable in the state. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.560 You know, there are lots of those sources of state 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.400 crimes books and records, types of crimes that don't have 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.520 a federal corollary. So a lot of it thought there 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.280 would be something like that. But when the charges came out, 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.640 they really weren't factually distinct from the federal charges, and 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.240 so it was a little bit puzzling, and you know, 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.920 a lot of folks thought that, in fact, what ended 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.400 up happening would happen, which is that those charges would 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.400 be deemed too factually close to and distinct from the 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:42.200 federal charges, resulting in their rejection under the double jeparty law. 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.120 So when Vance brought those charges, as you mentioned, it 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.960 was fairly clear that he was doing it because of 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.440 the concern that Trump would pardon Manafort, which he did. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.479 But is there anything wrong with Vance's motivation there in 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:01.560 bringing the charges. I don't think so. I mean, you know, 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.120 the point is that if something is chargeable in the state, 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.800 which bank fraud and mortgage trod are chargeable in New 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.360 York State, if you have jurisdiction and venue over those senses. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.400 The people of the state have an interest in seeing 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.320 that those charges are brought and that you, if with 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.240 you that crime in our state, are punished for that. 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.760 So it's not that it's it's there's something wrong with 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.279 him trying to vindicate the interests of the citizens of 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.000 New York State. And you know, in fact, this notion 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.080 of being charged by the said but then getting out 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.719 of it via a pardon was seemed so problematic that 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:44.159 the New York State legislature changed the law, saying that 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.840 that now is an exception, like if you are charged 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:52.000 but then pardoned federally, you now can be charged for 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.080 that thing conduct by the state. But that change was 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.920 made too late to impact Manafort's case because the law 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.840 is not retroact of really applicable. So I don't think 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.840 there's anything wrong. It's kind of an ethical matter with 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.480 bringing the charges. The problem is they just didn't have 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.120 enough of a distinct factual basis to get through the 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:15.400 double jeopardy law as it existed then for Manafort without 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.520 the pardon exception. Jennifer in its order last week, the 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.080 Court of Appeals, without explanation, just said it wouldn't hear 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.880 Vance's appeal of the lower court decisions. Is there anything 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:30.160 that the lower court judge or the appellate division said 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.720 that struck you, not really, I mean, they just rejected 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.400 the notion that this was different enough. And you know, 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.800 I think the reaction of a lot of legal commentators 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:45.080 was frustration, you know, the Advance brought a case that 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.200 just wasn't strong enough. I mean, you know, not that 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.520 people thought that he shouldn't be chargeable in the state, 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.480 given that he's now gotten off scot free on the 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.599 federal side, but that there, you know, you really do 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.800 have to comply with the law and bring something factually 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:06.160 distinct enough, and unfortunately they didn't have that case. And 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.200 if you don't have the case, you shouldn't bring the case. So, 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.400 you know, I didn't see a lot of complaints about 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.480 what the judges did here, more just frustration that Vance 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.240 thought something that at the end of the day wasn't 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.760 going to succeed because they just didn't have enough of 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.920 a distinct factual pattern here. And the fact that the 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.680 state's highest court didn't take the case. But what does 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.760 it say that the court just turn this down and 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.840 didn't allow an argument to be made. Well, the New 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.200 York Court of Appeals, which is our supreme court, they 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.880 don't have to take every case. You know, there are 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.720 some cases that they do have to consider, but a 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.920 lot of their jurisdiction is you know, they can take 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.560 it if they want to take it, and cases that 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.920 they want to take ten tend to be things that 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.400 they think are wrongly decided right that they're gonna overturn, 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.400 or that involved a kind of an area of the 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.920 law that requires clarification, that sort of thing. So if 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.480 they see a case where they look at the decision 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.200 below and they say, well, this decision was correct on 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.440 the law and it's not really a close call because 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.400 the double deeputy law is pretty clear about you know, 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.080 having to have a distinct factual basis, then we're not 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.040 going to take it. I mean, why take it only 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.920 to say, yeah, we agree this is right. You know, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.880 it's not a novel area of the law. And um, 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.439 you know, so it says to me they didn't consider 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.000 it to be a close case on the merits and 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:43.439 they didn't see anything else interesting or requiring explanation about 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.199 the case. Um, so you know, they agreed with the 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.079 courts below, So it's there. So is mat A fort 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:54.280 Scott free because I was reading that the language that 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.680 was used in the parts that Trump gave may not 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.000 cover everything. Yeah, so that's that's an interesting issues. So 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:07.160 Andrew Weissman, who is UM one of the Mueller team lawyers, 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:11.079 one of the prosecutors who who um was on Muller 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:15.439 team and charged and and tries these matters, wrote that 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.319 the pardon that Manafort received is very specific. It only 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:24.680 applies to the crimes with which he was charged and convicted, 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.400 and so that potentially leaves additional conducts that's chargeable by 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:32.640 the federal authorities, because you know, you don't always charge 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.200 someone with everything that you know they did, and certainly 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.920 they're not always convicted of everything that you know they did. Right, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.360 So Andrew says that there's some conduct out there that 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.560 could be charged by the o J again. Now, even 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.680 if that's true, it's really hard to imagine that the 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:54.280 Biden Justice Department is going to charge Paul Manafort again 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:58.400 for some of this leftover conduct. Um. But Andrew Wisen's 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.400 you is that technically it's possible. So you know, I 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.640 guess we'll have to wait and see when Garland gets 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:09.240 into his position, and they start to consider not just Manafort, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.840 but all of these other Trump world people, um, who 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.560 have outstanding criminal conduct, you know, whether they're going to 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.360 pursue that or not. I remember Weissman also saying that 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:24.760 they also levied some civil penalties, high civil penalties that 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.120 he would have to pay, so at least there would 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.920 be some measure of justice and some punishment from Manifort 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:36.200 because everyone anticipated that Trump would pardon Maniford and everyone 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:40.280 else associated with the Muller investigation. Yeah, and I don't 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.720 think it was a surprise to anyone that raptive partners 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.760 have ended up partnering literally every single figure charged in 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:54.200 the Muller investigation except for Rick Dates, who was the 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.240 one person who truly did cooperate, signed a cooperation agreement, 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.679 testified at trial, and you know, didn't just kind of 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.600 fake cooperate the way that that Manafort did for a 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.640 short time. So, um, you know, I think it's part 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.920 for prosecutors always to think two steps ahead and to 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.320 try to cro charges in such a way and to 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:19.000 add civil penalties in a way that insulates them from 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:23.240 what was really an inappropriate pardon by the president shortly 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:27.720 before he reached office. Trump also in a last minute 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.680 pardon and really a last minute pardon, he pardoned Steve Bannon, 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:37.920 and Vance is reportedly exploring a case against Bannon. Will 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.840 that pardon have any effect on Bannon being tried by 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.720 New York So it's really interesting. So Jeoffardy has not 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.920 yet attached for Steve Bannon because it doesn't attach until 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.600 either guilty plea or the jury is born as a trial, 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.719 so there is nothing to stop New York state authorities 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.200 from charging him. But the wrinkle is that former President 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.400 Trump pardon Steve Bannon only and not any of his 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.640 free co defendants. So in the criminal case, the federal 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.840 criminal case again his co defendants, continues and is set 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:11.600 for trial. You know, I don't know when it's set 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:13.880 for trial, but it is coming up at some point, 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.240 and so that complicates things a little bit because typically 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.480 prosecutors don't want to have the same evidence and the 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.320 same witnesses being used at the same time in a 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.520 proceeding in federal court. And then also you'll have an 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.640 investigation and ultimately charges in state court, so they're going 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.800 to have to sort out amongst themselves. You know, this 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:37.160 kind of evidence sharing, and which investigation is gonna go first, 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.920 and whether he can be charged before the federal trial 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.320 happens and so on. Um. But I do expect that, 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.760 given the nature of the conduct and the nature of 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:50.439 the proof, which seems very strong, the Steed Bannon will eventually, 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.080 perhaps after the federal trial is over, be charged in 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:56.480 the state with the conduct that he was pardoned for. 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.720 What's his connection to the state. Does he live here? 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.120 I don't know where the bans, but one of I 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.040 believe one of the descendants was based in West Festa 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.880 uh if I'm not mistaken. And in any sort of 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.720 cyber scheme where you have victims that you're reaching out 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.920 to on the Internet and asking them to contribute money 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.880 and they're giving you money, there's almost certain to be 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.960 jurisdiction just about everywhere, to be honest with you, because 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.840 undoubtedly some of the victims of the scheme would have 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.880 been in New York State and would have given money, 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.800 and the descendants would have reached out to residents of 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.240 New York State as part of their scheme itself to 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.600 gather the money. So I'm not exactly sure more of 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.840 connections between the descendants of the state, but certainly, given 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:47.240 you know the outlets of cyber communications and where the 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.839 victims are likely to be based, there will be jurisdiction 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.440 in New York States. Thanks Jennifer. That's Jennifer Rogers, who 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:59.080 teaches at Columbia Law School. It was day to a 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:04.000 former President Donald Trump's impeachment trial. House Impeachment Manager Jamie 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.120 Raskin of Maryland started the proceedings. Raskin said new evidence 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.280 would be presented that would prove that Trump insided his 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.480 mob of supporters to storm the capital and derail the 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.960 proceedings to certify the electoral College result. The evidence will 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:24.080 be for you to see and hear and digest. The 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:28.280 evidence will show you that ex President Trump was no 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:34.360 innocent bystander joining me as former federal prosecutor Michael Zelden, Michael, 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.200 what do you see as the broad strategy of the 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.800 House managers here? The broad strategy of the House managers 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.640 seemed to be to lay the foundation for their brick 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.480 by brick building of a case starting essentially before the 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.840 election even took place, where Trump is saying we can 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:59.440 only lose by fraud, moving into the post election period 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:01.920 where he would lose, and then he said, you see, 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.680 it's fraud, just as I told you. Then his efforts 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:11.000 to undermine and change the results of those elections in 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:16.480 various states, finally and culminating in January six, and the 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.560 protests and the violence, and the key language that they 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.840 say over and over is what happened on January six 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:30.720 was predictable and foreseeable, the result of a month long 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:35.600 campaign to achieve what they achieved, which was an effort 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.840 to stop the certification of the vote on January six. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.400 So is that the most difficult part of their case, 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:48.080 actually linking Trump to the attack on the Capitol. Well, 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.200 it's difficult only in the sense that there will be 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.240 a false First Amendment defense that will be laid out, 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.320 which says essentially what he said on January six is 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.480 protected First Amendment speech. What Jamie Raski started today with 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.840 by saying that just doesn't apply. It is not what 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.400 he's on trial for. But I think because it is 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.520 the culminating act, they need to establish this foundation to 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.560 show that that was really not what he is on 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.920 trial for alone, but rather that is part of a 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:28.360 larger mosaic of activity that he engaged in which he 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.440 knew what would be the result of and in fact 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:33.840 it was the result of Well at this point, we 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:35.400 don't know if they're going to have witnesses, but what 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:40.720 they're doing is there methodically playing video and they're putting 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:45.840 up stills of tweets. How effective are the tweets of 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:50.560 rioters in showing that they were following Trump? Well, I 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:56.120 think that it again goes to the foreseeability of what 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.080 they are trying to prove, which is to say, these 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:03.520 people knew that they were only there because Trump told 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.320 him to be there, and Trump was able to predict 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.400 and foresee that they would show up because he has 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:13.280 been for months encouraging them to show up. And so 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.480 I think that it's sort of dove tails with the 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.640 presentation that one Trump is responsible to this, and two 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.000 you can take that as true from the words of 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.920 the people who actually went there because he told them 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.719 to go there. I had not heard this before, but 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.200 they said today that he spent some fifty million dollars 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:38.119 on ads running right up to January five. That seems 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:43.159 like it's a powerful piece of evidence exactly, And I 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.200 think that there will be an investigation where there should 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.680 be an investigation of this money trail. Remember My background 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.280 as a prosecutor was as money laundering prosecutor, and when 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.280 I heard the accusation that there was fifty million dollars 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.760 spent in the run up to the January six events 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.119 and to get people to the January six events, I 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.400 want to see who raised that money, how is it raised, 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.240 who spent it, why were they there? Because I think 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:18.800 that that is also powerful evidence of a premeditated plan 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.200 orchestrated by Trump and a group of people working with 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.560 Trump to create this January six riot. I think it's 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.520 very important evidend. We'll see whether they have it yet, 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.760 but if we don't, I think ultimately we will see that. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.440 Who do you think would investigate that, because it doesn't 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:41.840 seem as if Biden's Justice Department is interested in pursuing 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:46.600 Trump and relitigating it. Well, the Federal Election Commission one 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.080 has a duty to obtain information with respect to anything 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.360 that's campaign related, and so there may be campaign finance 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.720 reasons for the Federal Election Commission to look into it. 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:02.720 There may be violations of state laws around elections that 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.800 state prosecutors will look into, and I'm not so sure. 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.240 After the dust settles and Merrick Garland is in his 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.960 position that prosecutors are not going to be allowed to 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.240 investigate crimes that occurred in their jurisdiction. So I wouldn't 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.600 say for sure that the Biden administration is not going 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.520 to free prosecutors to look at possible criminal activity in 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.440 their jurisdictions as time passes. So what do you think 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.240 is the hardest part of the House Manager's case. Well, 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:38.720 the hardest thing they have to do is convinced the 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:43.120 Republican senators to listen, because there has been reports many 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.679 of the senators are not even paying attention. Yesterday they 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.520 said Marco Rubio and Josh Howley and others are doing 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.440 other things. So part of it is to obtain their attention. 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.879 But I think the hardest thing for them to prove 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:02.720 is what they are trying to prove, which is this 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.920 is not a one off, one hour speech by Trump, 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:12.440 but rather this is a fully orchestrated, months long effort 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:17.040 that January six was the foreseeable and predictable outcome of 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:21.000 and therefore he's responsible because if it's just one day, 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:25.960 one speech, then I think it gives his attorneys an opportunity, 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.480 as I say, falsely argue First Amendment and lack of 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.560 foreseeability and he had no intention to incite. But the 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:38.639 longer the case goes, and the more they can establish 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.440 this timeline that starts before the election where he says 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.359 it's only going to be lost if there's fraud, up 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.440 until his speech on January six, where he then essentially 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.159 blows the whistle and says charge. I think they have 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:55.359 a strongest case by that, and that's not a simple 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:59.000 case to make, but that's their strongest argument. Reportedly, Senator 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.800 Lindsey Graham told Trump after the first day that it's over. Now, 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.760 the trial is over, and you're going to be acquitted. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.680 I can't imagine how they feel, the house managers. When 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.960 you're a prosecutor, if you went into a courtroom thinking 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.679 that the jury was against you, I mean, it'd be 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.840 hard to put on the case. Well, it is, yes, 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.960 And I mean the history of civil rights litigation UM 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.680 where they were charging people with violating civil rights, workers 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.000 rights and they were losing to all the juries had 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.280 to be very distressing. But I think in this case 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.400 you have a trial that really is to the American 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.520 public and to history. So I think that these house 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:45.080 managers know that even if they don't obtain a conviction. 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.200 Even if they can't convince seventeen Republicans, they are broader 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.760 audiences the American people and history, so that it is 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:57.440 documented what Trump and his allies did and how they 0:21:57.600 --> 0:21:59.720 brought that to life. I think that there's something that 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.320 is very compelling for a prosecutor to say, winner of lose, 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.399 I'm fighting the good fight. Actually, I think it was 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:12.000 quite a victory yesterday when a Louisiana Senator who hadn't 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.479 voted against the jurisdictional issue when Rand Paul brought it up, 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.600 when they got him to vote for jurisdiction, that was 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:25.200 a victory of sorts, no question. Whenever you can convince 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:30.240 somebody who has voted against you in one vote to 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.840 vote in your favor a second vote, that's that's the victory. 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.320 The thing that is interesting to me is to keep 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.960 an eye on McConnell. He's been quiet. He made comments 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:44.480 early on that he thought Trump was responsible for this. 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:50.359 He voted yesterday against moving forward, But he may have 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.439 done that reasons that don't relate to how he's going 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:55.680 to vote on the merit of the case. I still 0:22:55.720 --> 0:23:00.600 think as he goes goes the outcome of this trial. 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:04.119 I think he's in a lynch pin that many senators 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:10.080 are looking for his non approval to vote. Someone said, 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.800 and I think it's probably right that were this a 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:20.280 secret ballot, Trump would probably lose seven eight votes to convict. 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:22.960 But because it's not a secret ballot, and because these 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:27.120 senators primarily are concerned about their political career and their 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.200 will being in non America and not its history, and 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.200 not the rule of law and all that stuff, we're 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.120 in this situation of only six voting to convict. So now, 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:41.200 what can the defense do to counter the House argument? 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:43.800 What I think that defense is going to try to 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:47.560 do is to say all the president did was to 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:51.280 make a speech, a one hour speech on January six, 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:55.000 which is protected by the First Amendment, and that the 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:59.480 actions of the mob stormed the capital were not foreseeable 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:03.440 by him, was not intended by him, and was just 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:09.280 on them by themselves, without any culpability for him. I 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.600 think the more noise that they can make that all 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:17.000 Trump did was what he was allowed to do under laws. 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:21.159 That is, he is allowed to bring lawsuits, he is 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:26.399 allowed to ask the senators to exercise their power to 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:31.199 contest the certification on January six. He is allowed as 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:33.639 a matter of free speech to speak to whomever he 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:36.680 wants to, and state legislature was about whether there was 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:41.399 election fraud and that his speech was not inciting, but 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:44.720 rather it was just rhetoric that is normal in the 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:49.760 political discourse. I think you'll see a lot of false equivalence. 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:55.280 They will say, well, Maxine Waters said this, how is 0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:58.040 it if she said that she's not on trial, but 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:00.439 our guys on trial. So they going to be a 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:04.360 lot of effort I think to say this speech was hyperbolic, 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:08.160 but but First Amendment protected. I think that's what they'll 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:10.560 try to say. You know, it's very hard to know 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:14.440 what they'll do after listening to their opening arguments yesterday 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:19.280 because they were incoherent, loud, and incoherent, so it's pretty 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:21.800 hard to know what their strategy is. But if I 0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:24.880 were representing the president in this case, I would try 0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:29.600