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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frye. We talked about the Kentucky cave

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Speaker 1: Hors this week, which had some of the best names

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Speaker 1: ever in any episode we've ever done. I think that

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Speaker 1: did have some good names. Yeah. Yeah, you had something

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Speaker 1: from the listener mail that you said you wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask about, and I wanted to go ahead and say

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Speaker 1: that before I forget. I meant to ask you about

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Speaker 1: this a million times because we've talked about how you

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Speaker 1: missed the hot dog culture in Iceland I did, which

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, if you're not a hot dog person,

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Speaker 1: you maybe wouldn't see it. But did you get into

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Speaker 1: any of the cat culture? No, I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the cat culture and Iceland, Like I

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Speaker 1: literally have a shirt that's like Cats of Downtown Reykievic,

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Speaker 1: like they you know about Bakou, Yeah, who is like

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Speaker 1: the unofficial mayor of Raykievic, who is a big cat

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Speaker 1: that wanders around and is adorable and has his own

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Speaker 1: Instagram and apparently disappeared for a few days and they

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Speaker 1: found him in a bank vault and nobody knows how

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Speaker 1: he got in there, followed Bacdus on Instagram. He's gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: He's like a big, kind of fluffy black and white kitty.

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Speaker 1: He's adorable. But yeah, apparently, like I didn't realize, and

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Speaker 1: we were there in May, so it would have been

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Speaker 1: a little warmer than when you were there a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Raykievic loves their cats, and like, apparently there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of cats in the downtown area that are kind

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Speaker 1: of like they're not feral, but they're sort of communally owned,

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Speaker 1: like everybody kind of shares in their care, and they

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Speaker 1: have merchandise that in depending on what shop you get

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Speaker 1: it from. I think some of the proceeds from the

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Speaker 1: sale of the merch goes to taking care of the

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Speaker 1: cats and stuff. And I was like, I'd never asked

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Speaker 1: Tracy if she noticed all the kiddies. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I did. Was of course the stuff I brought home

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Speaker 1: for our cat sitter. I was like, here's all your

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Speaker 1: Reykievic cat merchandise. Yeah. I thought you were going to

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Speaker 1: ask if we saw a lot of fabulous murals in Reykiovic,

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Speaker 1: and that answer was yes, Like there were some really

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Speaker 1: amazing murals that we saw in Reykievick while you were there,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about kiddies. Okay, So Cave Wars.

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Speaker 1: We've gotten over the years many emails for episode requests

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Speaker 1: about either Mammoth Cave the Cave Wars. A couple of

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Speaker 1: people have written in and asked for an episode specifically

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Speaker 1: about Stephen Bishop and like his his work as a

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Speaker 1: cave guide, his influence on the cave, all of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And so this sort of wound up rolling multiple frequent

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Speaker 1: topic requests into one episode. Yeah, Floyd Collins being trapped

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Speaker 1: in the cave. So in more recent history, we all

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Speaker 1: sort of probably remember the massive international news story of

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Speaker 1: the kids that were trapped in the cave. Was that

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Speaker 1: in Thailand? Yes, So the thing that it really made

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Speaker 1: me think more of was something that happened in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty seven, So when I was a child, which was

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Speaker 1: baby Jessica being trapped in the well. Do you remember this? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was similarly the biggest news story for what, in

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Speaker 1: my memory feels like an inordinately long time, like's it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it went on for months. It did

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Speaker 1: not go on for months, but it did dominate the

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Speaker 1: news story for a very long time, and I remember

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Speaker 1: just an astonishing amount of detail about it, considering that

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty seven, I would have been like twelve, right,

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Speaker 1: but uh, I was kind of refreshing my memory and

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Speaker 1: I read an article about it, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I remember that moment on the television. I remember that moment.

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Speaker 1: I remember when they said that in the news. Right.

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Speaker 1: How did I retain all of this about this child

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Speaker 1: who was stuck in a well? It made an impression, clearly, Yeah, don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it turned into like quite the spectacle

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Speaker 1: of massive, massive crowds of people and locals selling baked

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Speaker 1: goods or whatever. Maybe it did, I don't know, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems like when Floyd Collins was trapped, it did

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Speaker 1: turn into just like a giant fair almost. That whole

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Speaker 1: thing is like Claustrophobia city for me. Yeah, well yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: He was trapped in a very confined area, like I

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Speaker 1: am claustrophobic. Hm. Like even lately I have been playing

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Speaker 1: I'm late on picking it up, so don't anybody dog me.

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Speaker 1: But Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order, and there are parts

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Speaker 1: of it where you shimmy between two things sideways, and

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Speaker 1: it freaks me out, like it's literally a video game.

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing it. It's fine, And I'm still like, Brian,

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Speaker 1: tell me what I'm true, tell me what I'm true,

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Speaker 1: because I'm so claustrophobic. So reading about him trying to

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Speaker 1: like wiggle his toes to get free and stuff, I

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Speaker 1: was like, no, they no, thank you. I hope the

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Speaker 1: thing at the top of the show saying that it

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Speaker 1: was about somebody being trapped in a cave was like

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Speaker 1: enough of a warning for folks who feel similarly. I hope,

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Speaker 1: I hope bye. Just kind of a weird coincidence. I

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Speaker 1: read Starling House, which novel that inspired this episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at about the same time as I started listening to

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Speaker 1: a podcast called Old Gods of Appalachia. Yeah, and there's

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Speaker 1: some overlap there. So I was in this you know,

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Speaker 1: space of eerie supernatural things, sometimes involving caves and underground

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Speaker 1: spaces that wound up feeding into this episode. I have

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Speaker 1: not made my way all the way through Old Gods

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Speaker 1: of Appalachia. I am on. I think the last season

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Speaker 1: that exists currently is what I'm currently listening to. So

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Speaker 1: I've been listening to that for a while. It is,

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Speaker 1: as its name suggests, set in Appalachia, specifically set in

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Speaker 1: like Appalachian mining and railroad companies, like the parts of

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Speaker 1: the Appalachian mountains and foothills that were really stripped by

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Speaker 1: mining companies and railroad companies, and with supernatural flair that

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Speaker 1: can feel a little Lovecraftian, But I don't think that's

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Speaker 1: really Yeah, you've accidentally stumbled on to the next thing

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Speaker 1: I was gonna mention, but keep going that well, they've

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Speaker 1: talked about the inspiration not so much being lovecraft, although

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Speaker 1: it does feel very Lovecraftian at times, but like driving

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Speaker 1: through these parts of this region of the world and

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Speaker 1: seeing adjacent to one another, like abandoned industrial sites that

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Speaker 1: are like full of metal and destruction, and places where

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Speaker 1: the green has taken back over and is like very

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Speaker 1: lush and overgrown, and thinking about like the duality of

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Speaker 1: all of that. One thing that I will note, because

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Speaker 1: I know that people try to be thoughtful about the

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Speaker 1: media they consume. The first season of this the characters

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Speaker 1: are are all white. It is set in a predominantly

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Speaker 1: at this point predominantly Why area, and the people making

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Speaker 1: it seem to have been really thoughtful about like how

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Speaker 1: to incorporate the perspectives of people that they aren't part of.

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Speaker 1: So in like the second season, they got voice actors

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Speaker 1: and consultants and and other people involved in the show

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Speaker 1: who were black to add that perspective more. And they've

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Speaker 1: also talked about really not wanting to try to represent

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Speaker 1: an indigenous point of view in the show because they

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Speaker 1: are not Indigenous, and not wanting to try to like

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Speaker 1: claim a story that is not theirs to try to claim, right, So,

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Speaker 1: I like, I know for sure I've sat down with

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Speaker 1: people to talk about something that I'm reading and they've said,

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Speaker 1: why is why does it seem like such a you know,

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Speaker 1: predominantly white production. It seems like something that they have

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Speaker 1: put care and thought into how to incorporate different perspectives

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Speaker 1: and different representation into it. I said, Lovecraft in your

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Speaker 1: face lit up. Yeah, Well, yes, we've talked about Lovecraft

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Speaker 1: on the show before. He problematic, but I do love

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Speaker 1: a lot of his work. And when we were talking

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Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the episode about the eyeless

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Speaker 1: species in the Cave, I immediately thought of At the

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Speaker 1: Mountains of Madness, which have you read it? No? No,

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Speaker 1: I've seen an adaptation of it though. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 1: one of those things has been trying to be made

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Speaker 1: into a movie for a long time and gear Mother

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Speaker 1: Toro was going to and like that has been put

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Speaker 1: to the wayside. I really love that, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of it is exploring these caves that are it's a

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Speaker 1: very similar thing. But my favorite thing about it are

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Speaker 1: there these big what he describes as flesh colored, which

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Speaker 1: presumably means white people, flesh colored eye list penguins in

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Speaker 1: the caves and I have a tattoo of one of

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Speaker 1: them because it's my favorite thing because they look it's

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Speaker 1: for me. The tattoos meaning is like things that seem

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Speaker 1: very scary often are not. And in the book these

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Speaker 1: look like terrifying monsters, but they kind of realize they're

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Speaker 1: just bubbling around doing their understate business. They don't care

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Speaker 1: about anything else. But I immediately was like, oh, this this

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Speaker 1: cave is full of love Craft characters. It kind of is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love it. The Mountains of Madness. Yeah, because I

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Speaker 1: do love Lovecraft, even though some of his work I

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Speaker 1: gotta yeah, I gotta edit in my head as I'm going, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true, But I do hope that one day, one day,

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Speaker 1: that movie will come back under Gamba del Toro's wing

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Speaker 1: because he did some like pre visualization stuff on it,

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Speaker 1: which is what my tattoo is based on. Because there

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Speaker 1: was a I think it was just a met cat.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was bigger than that of the

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Speaker 1: penguins that was made and it was so cool and

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Speaker 1: I loved it, Yeah, I loved it. Yeah. Anyway, caves scary.

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Speaker 1: I don't go in them. I have gone into Louree

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Speaker 1: caverns just in Virginia, I think, which was another like

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Speaker 1: guided tour situation. Patrick uh for a time in his

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Speaker 1: life was living in a place where there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of caves and he went caving a lot, and

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Speaker 1: his his hard no line was underwater caving because underwater

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Speaker 1: caving can be really really dangerous. None of it because

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Speaker 1: for me, uh yeah, in addition to like what happens

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Speaker 1: if your light goes out when you're when you're caving underwater,

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Speaker 1: it's possible to do stuff like kick up silt and

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Speaker 1: get disoriented, yeah, and that kind of thing. And so

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Speaker 1: he's been like, Nope, definitely not for me. I'm no

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Speaker 1: plope on all the caves. Literally that tunnely area. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you go through on big thunder Mountain is as much

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Speaker 1: cave as I can handle. Like I it's all tied

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Speaker 1: to the claustrophobia thing. I am so convinced that I

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Speaker 1: will be trapped. How did you feel about the Paris

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Speaker 1: Catacombs when we were down there? Going down that very

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Speaker 1: tight spiral staircase into them freaked me out, super bad. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but I did not realize. I don't remember we might

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Speaker 1: have been in like different parts of the group. No,

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Speaker 1: because we were together. We filmed together down there. We

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Speaker 1: filmed together once we were down there. Oh yeah, But

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Speaker 1: getting down there, I was like Brian was definitely like

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Speaker 1: experiencing the death grip of my hand, uh huh, because

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Speaker 1: I did not like that. And I once we're down

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Speaker 1: there though, like there are obviously like I have been

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Speaker 1: claustrophobic as long as I can remember, so I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of little kooky coping mechanisms. And in the

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Speaker 1: case of the Paris Catacombs, this isn't legitimate. I can

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Speaker 1: just it's a lie. I can tell myself, Okay, there's

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Speaker 1: always way out because there are so many little hallways

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Speaker 1: through it that I was it was also one of

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Speaker 1: those things that in my head I'm telling myself like

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Speaker 1: do you want to see this cool thing? Well, then

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Speaker 1: suck it up, Like, get your act together. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: be fine. It's an hour, you'll live. I'm still always

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Speaker 1: scared and when like there was one point where our

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Speaker 1: little herd that I was with, you know there are

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Speaker 1: places you see in the Paris Catacombs where there's like

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Speaker 1: an opening and you can't really go down it, right,

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Speaker 1: But we would have people in our group that was

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Speaker 1: like I wonder if I and I'd be like no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I turned into like such a panicky monkey. That again,

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Speaker 1: Paris Catacombs very difficult, but very beautiful. That was where

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Speaker 1: my love of the macabre and of French things had

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Speaker 1: to overwhelm my panic over going down into the earth. Yea,

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Speaker 1: if we had done our episode on the Paris Catacombs

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Speaker 1: before we went, I never would have gone in really,

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Speaker 1: because we talked so much about cave in's in the road. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the part that I'm scared of, is like stuff

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Speaker 1: caving in on me. So yeah, yeah, everybody's got there quirks.

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Speaker 1: Mine is that I'm claustrophobic. Had to just have this

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Speaker 1: discussion with the doctor about claustrophobia. Yes, over the possibility

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Speaker 1: of a seapap but she oh, we'll see, yeah, God

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Speaker 1: do sleep study. We'll see. Yeah, I'll looking forward to that.

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Speaker 1: But she was very like she's a sleep science and

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Speaker 1: neurology specialist, and she's like, oh, I have a lot

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Speaker 1: of clients that have claustrophobia, and we have ways we'll

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Speaker 1: try to address it. I can't promise you nothing will

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Speaker 1: be on your face, but like, there are different versions

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Speaker 1: and we'll try. We'll see if we get my one

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Speaker 1: that works, if you need it. So I'm sure I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be in that party trained soon. Not looking

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Speaker 1: forward to it. Claustrophobia don't like it anyway anyway, But

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Speaker 1: I like the idea of crazy critters that are under

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Speaker 1: there there. I like an eyelis bat in my head.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for sure, even if they've like come with a

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Speaker 1: weird syndrome, which reminds me. Also, have you read any

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Speaker 1: of Chuck Wendigg's books? Now, if you are afraid of things,

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Speaker 1: like you know outbreaks that can cause strange they bat

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Speaker 1: cave type problems, maybe don't. But that man can write

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Speaker 1: a scary book like no. Yeah, if you heard the

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Speaker 1: part about people having to disinfect their shoes and mobility

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Speaker 1: devices when leaving the cave, and you were thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't you have to go into the cave. People

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Speaker 1: did until white nose syndrome was introduced into the caves,

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Speaker 1: which was probably by bats, not by people, probably by

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Speaker 1: you know, bats coming into contact with one another's and like,

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Speaker 1: once it was in the caves, no longer a need

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Speaker 1: to prevent it from getting into the caves. It was

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Speaker 1: in there already, so that's why it's only upon exit

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Speaker 1: to try to keep from spreading it to other caves.

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Speaker 1: Cave caves, yes, cayes. Would I go on a mammoth

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Speaker 1: cave tour? Probably? Would I go into the deeper levels

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Speaker 1: of Mammoth cave? Probably not. The whole thing with like

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Speaker 1: a torch would disappear before you could see it go out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's like some tomb raider stuff. I'm not. I'm not

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Speaker 1: crow live down ladder, no fings. We talked about Dominica,

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Speaker 1: Gil Walteraire and a whole big French scandal. There's there

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Speaker 1: have historically been a lot of scandals in France, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get into the details of the

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Speaker 1: other scandals that were happening at the same time as this,

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Speaker 1: because there were a whole out of things and some

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Speaker 1: of them were very disturbing, but the reporting on them

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Speaker 1: in American newspapers was like, Man, a lot of scandals

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Speaker 1: happening in France. Right now, here are two gigantic, completely

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Speaker 1: different scandals. Yeah, it's funny because you know, at the

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Speaker 1: top of that episode, one of the things that came

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Speaker 1: up was this idea that for both her and her

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Speaker 1: first husband, for Guillome, they both wanted to live kind

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Speaker 1: of a bigger, more exciting life than they had grown

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Speaker 1: up in. And it's like, there's part of me that,

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Speaker 1: like an old clucking grandmother, goes, you can do that

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Speaker 1: without all the drama. But yeah, I guess just ough exhausting.

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Speaker 1: I made a lot of progress in my ability to

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Speaker 1: read French. There were some sources in French that I

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Speaker 1: both read in French and then translated to make sure

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Speaker 1: I understood them correctly. They were brief, they were not

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Speaker 1: whole entire books. Yeah, but like I do wish that

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Speaker 1: the two I only know of two books about this,

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Speaker 1: both of them in French published in France. Neither one

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Speaker 1: of them out of print, like one was published in

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Speaker 1: something like nineteen ninety six, like out of print now.

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Speaker 1: I think I saw like one copy of it in

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Speaker 1: off site storage at a library I could potentially access,

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Speaker 1: And it's like it was just not something that it

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Speaker 1: was going to work out to try to use as

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Speaker 1: a source for this. And I also would have needed

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Speaker 1: help from someone more proficient in French than me, because

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Speaker 1: what I'm definitely not going to pick up on is nuance, right,

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Speaker 1: Like turn a phrase is hard enough sometimes to catch

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Speaker 1: in your native tongue, right, It can be really hard

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Speaker 1: when you're reading not just another language, but another language

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Speaker 1: referring to much older events. Yeah. Yeah, And it is

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Speaker 1: kind of amusing to me how there was a spectrum

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Speaker 1: of how these things were written about. I read a

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Speaker 1: couple of articles that definitely made it seem like, yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: she did all of these things. She definitely plans to

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Speaker 1: murder him, and when that didn't work out, she definitely

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Speaker 1: plans to like have this sex worker claim that he

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Speaker 1: was living off of her sex work earnings. And then

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Speaker 1: she definitely number three negotiated a deal to sell the

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Speaker 1: paintings an extra for not going to prison, and then

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Speaker 1: others that were like, ah, all of these things were

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Speaker 1: alleged and no convictions ever happened. Right, And then like

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Speaker 1: if you look at the music in Larangerie's website, it

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Speaker 1: talks about this collection, no hint of any scandal that

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Speaker 1: could have been associated with it in any way, and

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Speaker 1: like the website description of the collection, I went to

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Speaker 1: this museum while I was while we were in Paris.

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Speaker 1: In addition to this collection, it has the really really

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Speaker 1: enormous Monet water lilies. I can't remember how many panels

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Speaker 1: it is, but I think it might be four, and

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Speaker 1: they are just it's a room that is just these enormous,

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Speaker 1: very long water lilies. And that was what took Patrick

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Speaker 1: and me to the museum, right, was the water lilies.

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Speaker 1: And then I had no knowledge of like what was

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Speaker 1: you know particular about the collection that was in the rest,

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Speaker 1: which is not the only thing in the museum, but like,

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Speaker 1: I didn't really know anything about that. I think though,

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Speaker 1: that that was the museum where I first saw Marie

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Speaker 1: Lawrence San's paintings, which has led me now on just

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Speaker 1: a whole journey and Marie Lawrence att multiple other episodes

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Speaker 1: stripped to Philadelphia that spawned this anyway, I had two things, Okay,

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Speaker 1: One is kind of jovial, which is that the whole

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Speaker 1: like mystery paperwork around Paolo's parentage and made me think

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Speaker 1: of Ratituey. Okay, I mean I always want to think

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Speaker 1: of Ratatouey because I love that movie and I think

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Speaker 1: it is a masterpiece. But it reminded me of the

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Speaker 1: whole Alfredo Linguini being in fact the son of the

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Speaker 1: greatest chef in France. But here is where I kept

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Speaker 1: being like, but why though, yeah, Dominica would have been dead,

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Speaker 1: so why does she care so much if Paolo got

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Speaker 1: her money or not. I had this mental question too,

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Speaker 1: and the only thing I could really arrive at was

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Speaker 1: that she hated him so much. Yeah, I mean that

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Speaker 1: is vindictive. She was already a crap parent, right, like

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Speaker 1: a D minus parent in terms of just like having

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Speaker 1: sleep under the table, right, and like someone with you know,

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Speaker 1: plenty of cash to let their child live at, even

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Speaker 1: if not a luxurious life for whatever reason, physically comfortable

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Speaker 1: and like safe life. Yeah, but she didn't choose to

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Speaker 1: do that, which is awful. And then I'm just like

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Speaker 1: why was it easier in her? And again this just

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Speaker 1: comes down to you. I can only presume you're an

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Speaker 1: evil human being, because why is it easier at that

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Speaker 1: point to try to kill him then to like, she's

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Speaker 1: clearly played fast and loose with like paperwork already in

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Speaker 1: her life. Why couldn't she just like repaper the situation

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Speaker 1: and claim like that she hadn't in fact adopted him,

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Speaker 1: or that, you know, or exposed some previous secret that

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Speaker 1: would have made his claim to her parentage and thus

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Speaker 1: to the fortune illegitimate. In another way, like I don't

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Speaker 1: understand why she's like, well, I guess we got to

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Speaker 1: kill my kid. Yeah. I also have questions around her

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Speaker 1: decision to acquire him right in the first place and

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Speaker 1: then legally adopt him, because that's another thing where I

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Speaker 1: saw like multiple possible explanations. What was that she would

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Speaker 1: not be able to bequeath her estate to anyone unless

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Speaker 1: she had unless like her late husband had an air

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Speaker 1: and I was like, this doesn't really align with her

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Speaker 1: later behavior. Another was that the possibility of like her

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Speaker 1: not really knowing for sure whether he had made those

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Speaker 1: changes to the will or not right and so whether

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Speaker 1: like this child was a fail safe in some way,

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Speaker 1: and like I have questions about all of this. Also

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Speaker 1: when I I'd like, it's obviously been several months that

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Speaker 1: I've had this on the list, and part of the

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Speaker 1: reason was like just wondering is there going to be

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Speaker 1: enough actual concrete information right to do this? And yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's enough actual concrete information for a whole episode, but

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Speaker 1: still alat of question marks around it. I man, I

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Speaker 1: really would love to know for definitively sure whether the

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Speaker 1: sale of the artwork to France was part of a deal,

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Speaker 1: just for my own curiosity, that would be something great

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Speaker 1: to know. And it's like the timeline definitely does line

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Speaker 1: up right. Just because one thing happened after another thing

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean the first thing caused a second thing anyway.

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Speaker 1: I would like to know why people were so willing

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Speaker 1: to be complacent in her villainous plans. Yeah, yeah, like

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Speaker 1: if I I mean, I would like to think that

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Speaker 1: if I were with someone and they had a child,

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Speaker 1: and I saw them mistreating that child as badly as

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Speaker 1: she did, not even getting to the murder part, I

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Speaker 1: would be like, yo, I gotta I gotta roll and

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Speaker 1: report you like I did write, Like the cruelty that

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Speaker 1: people were willing to excuse is really really hard to

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Speaker 1: wrap my head around. Yeah. Yeah, And that was one

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Speaker 1: of the things that people did not understand about Jean

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Speaker 1: Valtaire being in a relationship with her, Right, It does

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Speaker 1: seem like people thought that was really out of character

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Speaker 1: in a number of ways and in a like why

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Speaker 1: are you doing this? And also what do you see

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Speaker 1: in her kind of thing? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of drama. That's an exhausting way to live. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't have time for all that. No, if you

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Speaker 1: have your weekend coming up, whatever is happening, whether you

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00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: are taking time to do things for yourself, whether you're working,

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Speaker 1: I hope there's not a lot of drama unless it's

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Speaker 1: someone else's drama that you're enjoying watching that doesn't actually

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00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: affect you in any way. And if that's the case,

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Speaker 1: I hope it's going okay for those folks too, and

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00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: that it's fun drama and not harmful drama. We will

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Speaker 1: be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand

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Speaker 1: new on Monday. Stuff You Missed in History Class is

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00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: your favorite shows,