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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of Couch

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Speaker 1: Talks on You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat.

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Speaker 1: I am the host, and if you are not familiar

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Speaker 1: with what couch Talks is, it is the special bonus

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Speaker 1: episode where I Kat answer questions that you guys send

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Speaker 1: to me and you can send those to Katherine at

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy podcast dot com. Now, quick reminder before

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Speaker 1: we get into today's episode that although this podcast is

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Speaker 1: called You Need Therapy and I am a therapist, this

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Speaker 1: still does not serve as a replacement or a substitute

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Speaker 1: for any actual mental health services. However, we always hope

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Speaker 1: that it can help you in some way. We usually

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Speaker 1: do one question a week, and we always keep them anonymous.

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Speaker 1: This listener actually asked hers specifically to be anonymous, so

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Speaker 1: of course we're going to do that so you can

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Speaker 1: feel safe sending in your questions. And if there's ever

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Speaker 1: any information in the email that you don't want share,

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Speaker 1: just let me know and I won't share that. So

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Speaker 1: today's going to be a normal episode. We're gonna do

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Speaker 1: one question. It's one that I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us can relate to, even if we don't have this

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Speaker 1: exact scenario going on the theme of it might resonate

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Speaker 1: with some of y'all, so let's just get into it. Hey, kat,

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Speaker 1: this is long, but I have a situation and I

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Speaker 1: love some input. I'm in my early thirties and got

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Speaker 1: married last summer. My mom has always been a single mom.

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Speaker 1: My dad was really not in the picture. I knew

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Speaker 1: me getting married would be challenging for my mom because

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Speaker 1: we are very close, but I am having a hard

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Speaker 1: time navigating this new season of my life. I want

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Speaker 1: to support my mom and love and care for her,

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Speaker 1: but I also feel like she needs to have her

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Speaker 1: own life as well. This has all come to a

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Speaker 1: head this summer, and I assume she's talking about this

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Speaker 1: is the future summer. My husband and I have a

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Speaker 1: hectic schedule and we will be moving out of state

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Speaker 1: at some point. My mom, who doesn't live in the

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Speaker 1: same state as us and we are not moving to

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Speaker 1: the state she is in, has been kind of passive

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Speaker 1: aggressively talking about not taking any time off this summer.

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Speaker 1: When I asked her about it recently, she said, why

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Speaker 1: would I take time off just to sit around alone?

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Speaker 1: So I mentioned maybe taking a trip to see family

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Speaker 1: or a friend, and she's shut down those ideas pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time, I will see her for a

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Speaker 1: long weekend or a week each summer, but that's not

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Speaker 1: possible this summer with the move. I offered up the

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Speaker 1: idea of her coming to see us for the weekend

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Speaker 1: before we move, but she didn't seem excited about that either.

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Speaker 1: She has also recently complained that she doesn't have any

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Speaker 1: friends to do things with. When I suggest maybe trying

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Speaker 1: to go to a Bible study or connecting with old friends,

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Speaker 1: she shuts it down, saying she doesn't have time. I

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Speaker 1: value her and we even did a week long trip

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Speaker 1: together just us for the holidays last year. I am

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Speaker 1: not sure the last time my mom took a trip

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Speaker 1: without me. I know she relies on me a lot.

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Speaker 1: She calls me most days of the week, which I'm

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Speaker 1: totally fine with. I'm just struggling on what is the

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Speaker 1: healthiest for both of us. She recently mentioned moving to

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Speaker 1: where we are moving so she can watch our kids.

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Speaker 1: Except we don't have kids and I'm not pregnant, nor

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Speaker 1: is that something I brought up or asked her to do.

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Speaker 1: And as much as I love that idea for future

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Speaker 1: and having family, close. It also makes me nervous that

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Speaker 1: she would only have me again and not initiate making

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Speaker 1: new friends in a new city. I love her and

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Speaker 1: I want her to be happy, and I would love

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Speaker 1: for her to have things of her own going on

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Speaker 1: and not just focus solely on me. I am just

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Speaker 1: feeling torn on how to navigate it at all. Also

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Speaker 1: shout out to my husband, who loves my mom and

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Speaker 1: is happy to have her anytime. Thank you. So this

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Speaker 1: sounds really tough. It's not black and white. I wish

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Speaker 1: there were some rules that you could simply follow to

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Speaker 1: make this kind of go away. There's not one right

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Speaker 1: way to handle this type of stuff. You have to

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Speaker 1: take into account what feels comfortable to you, what you're

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Speaker 1: willing to risk, what kind of discomfort you're willing to

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Speaker 1: sit in, and what is problematic for you and what

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Speaker 1: is not. I kind of get this idea, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: there is some parentification with you that has maybe involved

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Speaker 1: maybe becoming the saragate spouse for your mom. And what

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Speaker 1: I mean by that is a lot of times when

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Speaker 1: I mean, even when parents or caregivers do have a partner,

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Speaker 1: if that partner does not meet the parents' emotional needs,

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Speaker 1: or what have you. Oftentimes one of the children gets

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Speaker 1: put in that position, and that can just be an

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Speaker 1: emotional support, that can be actually doing things around the house,

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Speaker 1: but you become reliant or you become that person's reliance,

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Speaker 1: and that's not always problematic to people. And it also

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Speaker 1: is problematic to a lot of people because they get

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Speaker 1: in situations like you're in, where you are trying to

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Speaker 1: go out on your own and create a family of

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Speaker 1: your own, yet you are still responsible or feeling responsible

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Speaker 1: at times for your mom's own emotional needs, and children

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Speaker 1: are not responsible for their parents' emotional needs, even adult children.

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Speaker 1: It's tough, and part of me feels like you just

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Speaker 1: wrote this email to get this off your chest and

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Speaker 1: kind of out of your body, because you didn't really

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Speaker 1: ask a question, You just asked for input. So I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna be talking at you, which actually, honestly is

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite ways to answer these emails because

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Speaker 1: I oftentimes can't give you very specific answers on your questions,

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Speaker 1: and that's way I just get to talk about things

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Speaker 1: that I hear, knowing that I could be off base

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Speaker 1: because I don't have that many details. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that there is a right way to

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Speaker 1: navigate this. I don't think there is a way to

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Speaker 1: navigate this that would not initiate new discomfort coming in

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Speaker 1: to either your experience or your mom's experience. Maybe and

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Speaker 1: your husband's also shout out congrats on the new marriage.

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Speaker 1: But it made me think of one thing that really

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Speaker 1: gets under my skin. And I'm sharing this as somebody

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Speaker 1: that I experience this at times, this scenario, and it's

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Speaker 1: when people don't ask for their needs. They present their

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Speaker 1: problems and almost like twist the discomfort knife until the

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Speaker 1: person they're talking to offers solutions. It's this like sneaky

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Speaker 1: form of manipulation where you end up being the one

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Speaker 1: to offer something that you don't actually want to do,

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Speaker 1: and you leave that space being like, wait, how did

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Speaker 1: I get roped into this? They didn't ask and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to do this, but it's something that we

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Speaker 1: do because we feel so uncomfortable and it feels like

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Speaker 1: we have to in that moment, when in reality we don't.

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Speaker 1: And an example of that, if that sounds confusing, a

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Speaker 1: way that that can show up is, let's say, I

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Speaker 1: mean kind of going off of what you said with

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Speaker 1: your mom and being alone. It can be somebody saying,

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Speaker 1: a parent saying to a child, Well, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: you and your family will be having a really nice

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Speaker 1: weekend on Easter. I suppose that I might heat up

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Speaker 1: a frozen meal and you know, I can see if

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Speaker 1: there's anything interesting on TV. But you know, I haven't

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Speaker 1: been able to find something lately. It's really lonely, not

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Speaker 1: having anybody to spend the holidays with. Which this is

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Speaker 1: me speaking. Okay, this person is waiting to be invited

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Speaker 1: to something, and it's not the fact that they want

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Speaker 1: to be invited, right, So another way to just ask

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Speaker 1: to be invited is, Wow, what you're doing on Easter

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Speaker 1: sounds like so much fun. I would love to be

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Speaker 1: able to come to that if there's space, and if

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Speaker 1: you want that to be a special experience between just

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Speaker 1: your family, what would you think about getting together next

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Speaker 1: weekend or finding a weekend to celebrate the holiday with me,

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Speaker 1: because I think I'm going to be feeling a little

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Speaker 1: lonely this weekend. That is so different. The first one

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Speaker 1: is this like victimy, like oh helpless, And if you're

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Speaker 1: a rescuer, if that is a role you play, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the people listening to this episode are

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Speaker 1: probably like, Oh, yeah, I play that role. We experience

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Speaker 1: the victim, we hear them, we see them, we know

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Speaker 1: the solution, and we jump in, sometimes because we like it,

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Speaker 1: sometimes because it feels like we have to, and we

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Speaker 1: continue to lean into the trap that they are setting up,

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Speaker 1: and we give them continued motivation to continue to get

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Speaker 1: their needs met that way, to do that again and

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Speaker 1: again and again. And when this happens, we can become

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Speaker 1: so focused on how frustrating their behavior is and what

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Speaker 1: they're doing wrong, and how annoying they are and how

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Speaker 1: helpless they are, rather than how we're getting ourselves stuck

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Speaker 1: in that cycle, and focusing on how we can learn

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Speaker 1: to better respond to either our frustrations or our knee

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Speaker 1: jerk reaction to fix or jump in, rather than to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's a bummer, I'm sorry you're feeling that way again.

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Speaker 1: This is something that we usually are not doing because

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Speaker 1: we want to hurt our own feelings. It's something that

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Speaker 1: we're doing because of the way that we have learned

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Speaker 1: to show up in the world with a way that

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Speaker 1: we have learned that we are supposed to act, that

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to act in order to get our needs met,

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Speaker 1: and so we have to kind of go against the

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Speaker 1: grain of what we've been taught throughout our lives to

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Speaker 1: undo some of this stuff. And maybe there is a

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Speaker 1: lesson that you learned growing up, and maybe that lesson

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Speaker 1: is I can't put myself first. I must put others

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Speaker 1: before me. Or it's my job to take care of

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Speaker 1: those around me. Or if someone's sad, I should fix it.

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Speaker 1: My needs don't matter. Others don't have the ability to

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Speaker 1: take care of themselves, that person won't be okay without me.

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Speaker 1: The list goes on, and that's just like one side

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Speaker 1: of what some of those lessons can be that we're

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Speaker 1: acting out of. I could go on and on with

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Speaker 1: different versions of that, but the point is we're taught

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Speaker 1: in some way to abandon ourselves and our needs in

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Speaker 1: order to take care of people who actually also have

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Speaker 1: the ability to take care of themselves. And the question

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Speaker 1: I have here for you is how can you learn

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Speaker 1: to manage the discomfort that you have when other people

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Speaker 1: are uncomfortable? How can I learn to manage the discomfort

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Speaker 1: that I'm experiencing versus how do I manage other people's stuff?

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Speaker 1: Maybe discomfort is part of that, and it sounds like

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Speaker 1: you might be one of those rescuer types that I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about again, don't worry, this is one of those

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Speaker 1: the spot that you got at things. I am right

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Speaker 1: there with you. I love jumping in on the drama

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Speaker 1: triangle as the rescuer, or have loved it in my past,

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Speaker 1: and honestly, I think it gave me a sense of power.

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Speaker 1: It gave me a sense of I'm good, It gave

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Speaker 1: me a role, It gave me some self esteem until

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Speaker 1: it was actually hurting me more than helping me. Being

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Speaker 1: a rescuer and being that person that people look to

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Speaker 1: can feel really awesome at times until it doesn't, and

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Speaker 1: then it can feel really heavy, and we can lose

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Speaker 1: sight of ourselves by having that like one track mind

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Speaker 1: of there's somebody who's helpless, let me fix them. And

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Speaker 1: when I describe this sometimes it sounds like I'm like

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Speaker 1: bashing like the victim and the helpless person, and the

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Speaker 1: rescuer is like a more desired person to want to

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Speaker 1: be or role to play the reality is both of

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Speaker 1: those roles are dysfunctional and unhealthy. And no matter what,

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Speaker 1: no matter how we start, if we get are getting

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Speaker 1: on the drama triangle. And if you don't know what

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Speaker 1: the drama trangle is, it is a pattern of dysfunctional

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Speaker 1: behavior in relationships. I've done a whole episode on it,

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Speaker 1: so if you want to learn more about it, I

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Speaker 1: highly suggest you type in you need therapy drama triangle

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Speaker 1: and listen to the episode. It's one of the most

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Speaker 1: helpful things that I've learned for myself and my own life,

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Speaker 1: and also learned to help others with as a therapist.

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Speaker 1: But back to what I was saying, when I jump

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Speaker 1: onto the drama triangle, even as a rescuer, no matter

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Speaker 1: what if I stay there, I'm going to end up

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Speaker 1: being a victim of some sort. No matter where you

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Speaker 1: hop on this triangle, wherever you hop on this pattern,

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Speaker 1: all roads lead to victim. And we are all going

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Speaker 1: to feel helpless in some way. And I even hear

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Speaker 1: you with that tinge of helplessness with being able to

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Speaker 1: help your mom, right, And part of that is because

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Speaker 1: you can't control her, you can't fix her, you can't

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Speaker 1: solve her problems. You can support her, but support and

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Speaker 1: rescuing are very different things. I think that we are

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Speaker 1: taught this altruistic rescuer type of support that actually is

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Speaker 1: dysfunctional when support is a different, very different thing. It's

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Speaker 1: being there to walk alongside somebody, but not to do

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Speaker 1: it for them. It's hey, I can scaffold, I can

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Speaker 1: help you take baby steps, but I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: take the steps for you. And I know that I

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Speaker 1: especially end up in the victim role. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do it no matter what, but it stings

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Speaker 1: extra hard and is extra confusing when the person that

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Speaker 1: I am jumping on to rescue doesn't really want to

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Speaker 1: be rescued, even if they're presenting that way. Because for

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Speaker 1: the person that's in that victim spot or the person

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Speaker 1: that you are wanting to save, if they get saved,

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Speaker 1: if they get rescued, if you solve their problems, what happens.

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Speaker 1: There is a world where people want to stay in

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Speaker 1: the problem because if I stay in the problem, that

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Speaker 1: means I still have a reason for people to come

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Speaker 1: and be around me. It's a dysfunctional way of maintaining

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Speaker 1: connection that actually, in the long term is going to

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Speaker 1: push people away from you. So I'm trying to rescue somebody,

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Speaker 1: but somebody don't want to be rescued. Yeah, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get really really frustrated, and like I said, if

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Speaker 1: you want to learn more about the drama triangle, go

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Speaker 1: listen to that episode. It's one of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: to teach and talk about. But here I want you

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Speaker 1: to focus on how I learn to create space for

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Speaker 1: people to help themselves and also decide if they even

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Speaker 1: want to do that, because I don't get to decide

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Speaker 1: if somebody wants to solve a problem that they're presenting with.

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Speaker 1: I might want to solve it, and if I were them,

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Speaker 1: I might want to solve it, but they might not

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Speaker 1: want to solve it. So if we continue to offer

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Speaker 1: solutions to the problems that maybe someone doesn't want a

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Speaker 1: solution to, it doesn't necessarily make you better than setting

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Speaker 1: a boundary. It might make you feel more comfortable because

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Speaker 1: it feels like you're doing something or it feels like

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Speaker 1: you're doing the right thing based on what you were

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Speaker 1: taught about your role in the world or how to

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Speaker 1: maintain connection. So it might feel like you're doing something better,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily mean you are doing something better

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Speaker 1: morally or whatever. So trying to soothe somebody's discomfort oftentimes

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Speaker 1: can take away space for that person to do something different.

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Speaker 1: And for you to then experience something different. It creates

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Speaker 1: that enabling effect. You know, what might be more helpful

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Speaker 1: is to clarify what it is that your mom's looking

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Speaker 1: for when she says some of these things to you.

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Speaker 1: Judging by her responses to your solutions, she might be

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Speaker 1: trying to stay in the problem, like I said, because

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Speaker 1: the problem might be offering her something. So instead of

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Speaker 1: just throwing out all these ideas and solving the problems

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Speaker 1: and doing that thing where like, you know, okay, you

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Speaker 1: can come live with me, and then you're like, wait,

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Speaker 1: what she didn't ask for that? Why did I do that?

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Speaker 1: You can say something like, hey mom, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: you are having a hard time. Is there something specific

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Speaker 1: that you're needing for me? How can I support you?

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Speaker 1: I want to support you in this, or hey mom,

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Speaker 1: I really love to support you. It sounds like you're

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Speaker 1: having a tough time. I don't know what would be

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Speaker 1: best to do right now, and it seems like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the suggestions I'm offering aren't suggestions that would

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Speaker 1: work for you. So can you help me identify what

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Speaker 1: it is that you need from me right now? Can

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Speaker 1: you let me know what it is that you need

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Speaker 1: from me right now, and that might just be me

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Speaker 1: listening to some things that are tough. So really really

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Speaker 1: digging into is she asking you for help or is

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Speaker 1: she wanting help at all? Did she say I need

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Speaker 1: help or does it feel like that? And then your

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Speaker 1: work will be how do I soothe the distress I

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Speaker 1: feel versus how do I focus on taking away my

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Speaker 1: mom's and actually empower her to soothe her own distress?

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Speaker 1: And I get it. That's really tough. I even struggle

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Speaker 1: with this as a therapist. You know, if I see

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Speaker 1: a client and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh, I want to tell you all the things

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Speaker 2: that I want to tell you, but it wouldn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: be very helpful for me to just be like, do this,

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Speaker 2: this and this and then you'll be better.

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Speaker 1: They're going to come back to me for the rest

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Speaker 1: of their lives and never learn what it is that

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Speaker 1: they need to do to help themselves. And then I'm

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Speaker 1: creating this cycle of like, oh my gosh, I haven't

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Speaker 1: we been through this before? So I hope that's helpful,

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Speaker 1: and I hope it just helps to just get some

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Speaker 1: of that out and talk about the frustrations you're feeling

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Speaker 1: or the feelings that you are feeling, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that if you do have a therapist, this is something

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Speaker 1: you are able to bring up with your therapist to

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Speaker 1: work on yourself. I have a lot of empathy for

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Speaker 1: you because it's not an easy situation and position that

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Speaker 1: you are in that is going to do it for

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Speaker 1: today's episode, Like I said, you guys can send me

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Speaker 1: in questions, feedback, concerns, anything to Catherine at you need

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Speaker 1: Therapy Podcast. You can just send me an email about

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Speaker 1: a topic that you want to hear about or anything.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't always have to be a question for couch Talks.

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Speaker 1: I would love it if you guys would review and

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Speaker 1: rate the podcast if you are listening on a platform

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Speaker 1: that allows that, maybe Spotify or Apple Podcast. I love

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Speaker 1: when you guys do that because it helps me get

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Speaker 1: this podcast out to more people. Also shout out to

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Speaker 1: Therapy podcast dot com. We still have some merch available

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Speaker 1: and I've had a lot of fun creating that and

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Speaker 1: sending that out to you guys. Know that if you

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Speaker 1: do order something, it might take me longer than a

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Speaker 1: normal business to get that out because I am doing

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Speaker 1: all of that myself and there's a learning curve and

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Speaker 1: I am not always the speediest in that, so allow

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Speaker 1: seven to ten days for me to ship that out

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Speaker 1: to you. You should get emails when those ship out, though,

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Speaker 1: with a tracking code and all of that. So just

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Speaker 1: offer me some grace as I'm moving through this adventure.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, check that stuff out until Monday's episode. I

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Speaker 1: hope you guys have the day you need to have

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Speaker 1: and I'll wak back with you guys soon