1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: we're venturing into the vault for an episode that originally 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: published November. This is an episode you did with Christian. Right, 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: this was the last episode I did with Christian, last 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: episode Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Yeah, this was his 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: his final episode. He got to pick the topic he 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: had been wanting to do one on on the Tree 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: of Life and the motif of the of the tree 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: in in human uh cultures around the world and uh 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: and yeah, so it was like his last episode he 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,639 Speaker 1: got to choose, and and in doing so he kind 13 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: of accidentally um made us to a Christmas episode because 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: we end up talking a little bit about holiday trees 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: Christmas trees in this episode as well. Uh, thus are 16 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: rerunning of of this episode during the holiday season. You're 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: gonna make people cry all over again for Christians. Farewell, 18 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: welcome cry if you must. But yeah, we were sad 19 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: to see him go. It's your party, all right. Uh, 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: so I guess we should get right into the episode. 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy The Tree of Life. Men call 22 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: the Swatha the Banyan tree. Which hath its bows beneath, 23 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: its roots above the ever holy tree Yea, for its 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: leaves are green and waving hymns which whisper truth, who 25 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: knows the Aswatha knows vEDS, and all its branches shoot 26 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: to heaven and sink to earth, even as the deeds 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: of men, which take their birth from qualities. Its silver 28 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: sprays and blooms, and all the eager verdure of its 29 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: girth leap to quick life at kiss of sun and air, 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: as men's lives quickened to the temptings fair of wooing sense. 31 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: It's hanging Rootlets seek the soil beneath, helping to hold 32 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: it there as actions rought amid this world of men 33 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: buying them by ever tightening bond again. Welcome to stuff 34 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: to blow your mind from How Stuff Works dot com. 35 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: Hey you, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My 36 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and my name is Christian Saga. 37 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: And that was a reading from a book I can't 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: pronounce the right way, but it's the arnold translation. Chapter fifteen. 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: You say it yes, the bag geta, or you know 40 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: you can just call it the geta. I always say 41 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: it wrong, baga geta. Yeah, or just the geta. You know, 42 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: you can be impersonal with it if you like. Okay, 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: but yeah, that's the Arnold translation Chapter fifteen, referring to 44 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: one of the many world trees, the sacred trees, the 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: trees of life that seemed to crop up from cultures 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: and traditions around the world, and the roots of these 47 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: trees seemed to dive down deep into human prehistory. Yeah. 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: I have been thinking about this topic for a few 49 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: years now. I've I've had this the back of my 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: head when I joined the show. Uh, here's a little 51 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: behind the scenes for you all. We have this huge 52 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: spreadsheet document that has all of our potential topics in it, 53 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: and when I first joined the show, I probably put 54 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, like two ideas into it, and this 55 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: was like one of the first ones I put in 56 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: there because I was like, I know what Robert's into, 57 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: I know what the show has covered before. I need 58 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: the answer to this question. And the way I had 59 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: framed it was, why are the Kundalini, ig, DRIs Sill, 60 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: and seff Rof also similar? And these are all basically 61 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: and we're going to get into this. These are all 62 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: representations of tree of life symbology across the world, right. 63 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: And it first struck me when I was reading these 64 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: esoteric books about things like yoga and Norse myths and 65 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: cobbalistic mysticism. And then it occurred to me that these 66 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: cosmological symbols, they're so similar, despite the fact that the 67 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: cultures that they come from are vastly different and very 68 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: far away from one another. But I didn't originally think 69 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: of them as trees per se. And now that we've 70 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: sat down and we've done our homework for this episode, 71 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty obvious that they're they're all trees. Yeah. 72 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: And if you if you don't know what those those 73 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: three names were, you don't know these particular world trees 74 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: by name. I feel like most people, you're probably connected 75 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: with some culture or another that has a tree symbol 76 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: within it. And even if you're completely like somehow completely 77 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: removed from uh, you know, ancient traditions and spiritual practices 78 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: and religious history, you are still going to encounter the 79 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: symbol of the tree somewhere in your world. And as 80 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: as with all the symbols, symbols come into contact with 81 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: each other, UH and you you really can't interact with 82 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: the symbol of the tree, I feel without um engaging 83 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: with the legacy of that symbol, which we're going to 84 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: discuss here today. Yeah, exactly, and so we're gonna provide 85 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 1: you with examples too. Well, we'll get into all of those, 86 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: but really our core question here today is why are 87 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: trees so intimately connected with spiritual training and development everywhere 88 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: in the world. And we'll find that this actually goes 89 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: along with scientific development as well, that the tree symbology 90 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: has been applied there too. Now I have to note 91 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: here we could do the whole episodes just on all 92 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: the various world trees and sacred trees in human tradition. 93 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: We could do a whole episode just on tree spirits 94 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: and the idea that the tree is a home for 95 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: the soul of the departed, But obviously we don't have time. 96 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: We're going to try and at least dip our toes 97 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: and and all the appropriate waters, but we're not gonna 98 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: really have time to immerse ourselves. Yeah, this is one 99 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: of those where you could do just like an entire 100 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: podcast called Tree of Life, and it would be just 101 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: every episode would be about a different one. Because the 102 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: further we dug into this, the more obvious. It was. 103 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: It was in every culture everybody has and each one's fascinating. 104 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: Each one has its own particular you know, flourishes. Uh so, yeah, 105 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: you could. You could just have a Tree of the Week, 106 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: but unfortunately I won't be able to join you for 107 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: that Tree of the Week on Stuff to Blow Your 108 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: Mind at least because this is my last episode of 109 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. I'm actually moving to Portland, Oregon, 110 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: So if any of our listeners are out that way 111 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: and you want to help me get situated as I move, 112 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: I would love your advice. So what we're gonna do 113 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: is at the end of this episode, I will provide 114 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: information on how to get in contact with me where 115 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: you can find me online. But I want to thank 116 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: everybody out there, all of you for accepting me into 117 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: your ears for the last few years. I've learned so 118 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: much working on this show and interacting with its wonderful community, 119 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: and I've made so many friends from being on this show. 120 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: So thank you everybody. And I wanted to choose a 121 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: topic that was something I've really wanted to cover on 122 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: this show, but that's also it's universal, man. Yeah, Well, 123 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: I mean, for for starters, I want to thank you 124 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: for everything you've done for the show and UH and 125 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: you have helped to shape its voice over the past 126 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: a few years here, and I wish you the absolute 127 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: best in Portland's and UH and as we'll get into 128 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: at the end of the show, also your your your 129 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: future podcast endeavors. Yeah, You're gonna remain a friend of 130 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Boil your Mind going forward, and I want 131 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: everyone to to to be clear on that, like, like 132 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: five years from now, I'm going to show up and 133 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna do UH an episode on some kind of 134 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: paraphilia and then we'll mix in like the science of 135 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: some kind of psychedelic drug into it. Right on that note, 136 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: I am glad that your final episode doesn't have to 137 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: be the zoophilia episode. That was one of the ones. 138 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: I'm kind of your Stuff to Boil your Mind bucket 139 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: was my hit list. Yeah, yeah, after the necrophilia episode, 140 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: I was like, we gotta do another paraphilia and so 141 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: I'm glad we got that out of the way as 142 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: a as ikey as it made us both feel when 143 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: we did it. You know, one of the other things 144 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: I like here is that your last episode is kind 145 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: of accidentally a Christmas episode, or at least a Christmas 146 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: Tree episode, because I found at least one source referring 147 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: to the Christmas tree as as yet another symbol, as 148 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: yet another echo of this global tradition, which which honestly 149 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: I didn't even really think. I guess it's just because 150 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: the Christmas tree is just so it's kind of so 151 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: overdone in Western tradition, especially because we cut them down right. 152 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, I hadn't thought of it either, And it's 153 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: so obvious now that you pointed out. Yeah, and this 154 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: comes out like somewhat at the beginning of December, So 155 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: maybe this will be an appropriate, uh, going into the 156 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: Holidays episode for everybody to listen to and think about trees. 157 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: So some of you out there are probably wondering, what 158 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: are you guys talking about? What is a tree of life? Well, 159 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: a tree of life it's a widespread archetype or motive 160 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: that shows up in many human myths across the world. 161 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: There seemed to be two main forms that show up, 162 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: the world tree and the tree of life. Sometimes it's 163 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: called the cosmic tree or the tree of knowledge in symbology. 164 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: But the first one is a tree that has a 165 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: vertical center that binds together heaven and Earth. And the 166 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: second one is a tree that is the source of 167 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: life at the horizontal so uner of the earth, and 168 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: the concepts that are associated with it include life giving force, 169 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: eternal life, desire for heaven, and fertility. So if we 170 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: look at the world tree one first, this is the 171 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: vertical tradition. The tree extends between earth and heaven and 172 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: is the connection between humans and the gods, and the 173 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: base of the tree is where oracles and profits perform 174 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: their activities. But because the top of this tree reaches 175 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: up into the heavens, it was seen as an entity 176 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 1: that actually connected the three spheres of what most people 177 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: thought of as existence Heaven, Earth, and then underground, which 178 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: would be the land of the dead in some cultures. Now, 179 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: what I think is interesting about this is that you 180 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: can easily compare it to the Holy Mountain in global traditions. 181 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: But though the mountain is a like a thing, this 182 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 1: is not geologically speaking, but speaking from like human perspective. 183 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: The mountain is a thing that exists and is solid 184 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: and is unchanging, but the tree is a thing that 185 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: is obviously grown um, which puts it more in keeping 186 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: with for instance, the idea of of a tower of Babbel, 187 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: the idea of power to reach the heavens of false mountain, 188 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: except that the tree is is authentic. And it also 189 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: reminds me, of course, of of space elevators, man made 190 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: thing that has grown or built and used to reach 191 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: the heavenly realm or at least you know, lower orbit. Yeah, 192 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: those are all metaphors that have shown up in other cultures, 193 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: not space elevators yet, but we still have time. We 194 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: can do like the space Elevator of Life movie at 195 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: some point. But you're right, mountains actually are interchangeable with 196 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: trees and some of these symbolic legends. But I think 197 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: that trees are usually the fallback because they grow and 198 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: because of their cycle of fertility. Uh. But let's look 199 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: at the horizontal tradition and see how that I think 200 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: that plays into that further. That's this is again the 201 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: tree of life versus the world tree. So this version 202 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: has the tree plan did at the center of the 203 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: world and usually it's protected by supernatural guardians. The tree 204 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: is the source of fertility and life, and we humans 205 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: are actually descended from the tree. If it's cut down, 206 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: the ability to reproduce in the world would cease to exist, 207 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: and the tree is common in quest myths, so that 208 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: you see a lot of myths where like somebody has 209 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: to go and get something, the trees usually involved. So 210 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: for example Gilgamesh he obtains the elixir of immortality after 211 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: fighting the guards of the Tree of Life, and its 212 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: fruit and sap are thought to bestow both knowledge and enlightenment. Now, 213 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: in some variations this is interesting. I only found this 214 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: in a few. There are goats at the base of 215 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: the tree, and they are also worshiped and seen as 216 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: symbolic of birth and fertility. That's interesting. I was looking 217 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: through um the writings of James Frasier and he made 218 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: some connections there as well, between antlered or horned animals 219 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: and the branches of trees. Well, it seems like the 220 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: goat represents the ibex, which was once worshiped as an 221 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: incarnation of human and herd fertility, so that would make sense, 222 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: and the horn formations connecting together. That also makes sense. 223 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: In other variations, though instead of a goat, it's a 224 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: dragon or a serpent. I guess dragons sometimes have horns, 225 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: but serpents don't. Usually, Yeah, I mean you do see 226 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: dragons with horns or antlers, a lot of traditions. I mean, 227 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: just kind of a reminder that the dragon is essentially 228 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: a chimera. It's a it's a you know, it's a 229 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: it's a creature created out of pieces of all these 230 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: other animals, including, uh, say, a deer or a goat, right, 231 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: and so these seem to symbolize the spirit of the earth. 232 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: But the serpent is also an image for the quicksilvery 233 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: sap that's within the tree as well, because of the 234 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: way it moves, So that's interesting as well. Yeah, I 235 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: had not realized that. Yeah, and obviously we'll get to this, 236 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: but when we go to the Judeo Christian version of this, 237 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: obviously the serpent in the tree in the Garden of Eden, 238 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: that all fits together. Right now, I want to remind 239 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: everybody about archetypes before we get into this, because we're 240 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: gonna definitely throw that term around a lot. Uh. Robert 241 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: and I have covered that in previous episodes. We did 242 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: an episode on just myth in general and taking a 243 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: look at myths across history. We also did an episode 244 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: on the hero myth and we talked about archetypes, and 245 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: we specifically talked about Karl Gustav Young in those episodes, 246 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: but just to give you a primer refresher what have you. 247 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: He was a psychoanalyst whose main theory was that archetypes 248 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: reappear in the collective unconscious that all human societies share. 249 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: And he saw this as a ancient universal mind that 250 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: was common to all humans. It's like an ancestral memory. Uh. 251 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: And explains why we had the same archetypes across different cultures. 252 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: This is his answer to my question, why why is 253 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: this this symbology exactly the same in these cultures all 254 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: around the world. Uh. And for instance, the hero, as 255 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: we talked about in in in that previous episode, was 256 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: one of the most prominent of these archetypes. Young posits 257 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: that there's this deeper unconscious level that's going on that 258 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: manifests itself as dreams or sometimes in more complex forms 259 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: as myths or fairy tales. So this is in his 260 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: you know, worldview. And we'll cover some some more frameworks 261 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: like this later on in the episode why these all 262 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: connect together? So the tree itself has been used since 263 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: prehistoric humanity as a representation for the cosmos, for God, 264 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: for fertility, knowledge, and eternal life. In fact, there are 265 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: representations of it in prehistoric artistic productions. That's pretty interesting. 266 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't realize that. Uh. We also find 267 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: the tree in our conceptions of physical matter. So whether 268 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: you're looking at vegetation or rivers or the circulation systems 269 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: of animals, they're all we use terms from trees, like 270 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: branches for instance, right. Uh. And the human brain in 271 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: these network actually resembles the trees crown in the spinal 272 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: cords its trunk, so you can see why human beings 273 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: would automatically gravitate towards this symbol. Yeah, the tree is 274 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: just a like a natural symbol, a natural metaphor for 275 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: all of these other things were encountering, and it's it's complete. 276 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: You can see it as a silhouette on a hill 277 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: and then use it as a model as kind of 278 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: an externalization of cognition to help you understand the rest 279 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: of your world exactly. And they're obviously a symbol for 280 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: the cycle of seasons, right like early humanity to now, 281 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: we all know that trees cycle through seasons, blossom, fruit, decay, 282 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: and then are reborn. This is seen as a reflection 283 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: of the regenerative cycle of the cosmos. Itself and trees. Then, 284 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: because they have a longer lifespan than ours, they seem 285 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: inexhaustible to us. Right, it seems like they have this 286 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: natural vigor that lasts forever. But that's just because they 287 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: live longer than us. It's like uh, ents in a 288 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: Lord of the rinks. There you go, So yet another 289 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: world tree that we we didn't add to the notes 290 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: here today. Yeah yeah, I also don't think we mentioned 291 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones at all. But of course they have those, 292 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: uh the spirit trees that the at least the people 293 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: of the north use the where would is that what 294 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: it's calla with the faces of the children of the forest. 295 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Now remember too that in this symbology, the 296 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: fruit of these trees bestows both knowledge and eternal life. Right, 297 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: So here's an example. The golden apples of Igdrasill are 298 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: said to be stored in Valhalla to restore the youthfulness 299 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: of the gods. But and this is this pun is intended? 300 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: What if it all stemmed from a psychotropic agent that 301 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: was in trees in the original representation. So actually, ethnobotanists 302 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: have been throwing theories around trying to figure this out 303 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: for a while now and some of the examples that 304 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: they looked at as possibilities where the fly a garrick 305 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: or the Syrian ru trees, But so far they haven't 306 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: been able to find a specific hallucinogenic plant that satisfactorily 307 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: fits with the description of world trees. See, I actually 308 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: found out a way to work in UH psychedelics into 309 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: my last episode. Well, you know, this does make me 310 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: wonder though, it's would it be necessary to be able 311 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: to find like the one the one to one example 312 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: of like here's a tree that produced a psychedelic fruit, 313 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: when it would be seems like it would be just 314 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: as likely that you have the symbol of the tree. 315 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: But then there's this vast knowledge of these other plants 316 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: in your environment that produce various medicinal or psychotropic effects. 317 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I agree. I think that some of 318 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: these researchers, what they're trying to do is pinpoint the 319 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: origin place where the myth first started. And a lot 320 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 1: of it we'll get into this later, but a lot 321 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: of it seems to point to the Middle East. So 322 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: I think that's why they're looking at those particular trees. 323 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: But you're right, I think that as this UH myth 324 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: spread throughout cultures around the world. Obviously, various trees could 325 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: influence it depending on what locations are in. So let's 326 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: get Christmas e again for a second. M I ran 327 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: across the um. This article in Nature from two thousand 328 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: by ecologist gear hess Mark titled Temptations of the Tree 329 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: a perennial image of life, history and enlightenment and uh 330 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: and he did a wonderful job tying it all into Christmas. 331 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: He says, at this time of year, many people the 332 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: world over bring a Christmas tree into their living room 333 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: to celebrate life. The tree is one of the most 334 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: powerful images in human thought and worship, a feature of 335 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: human environments from tiger to rainforest, and a symbol of persistence, fertility, life, descent, destiny, purification, 336 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: and strength, a vertical link between the earth and the heavens, 337 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: a place to seek knowledge. Yeah, you know what this 338 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: is interesting? Actually, do you do you and your family 339 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: get a Christmas tree every year? We do? Yeah? I 340 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: used to. In fact, my family, like my extended family, 341 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: owned a Christmas tree farm in New England, so it 342 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: was like part of the family like business, you know. Um, 343 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: and it's always sort of been in the back of 344 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: my head that that's why we use Christmas trees. But 345 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, as you're saying beginning, 346 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: we in American culture at least don't really specifically think 347 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: about the fertility stuff that's connected with it. It's more 348 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: about the I guess, like the holiday itself from the 349 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: commercial Well, you know, I was more inclined to recognize 350 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: the fertility aspects of it because it's like you're bringing 351 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: an average tree, an evergreen tree into your home during 352 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: the winter, and and they're all these various pagan connotations there. 353 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: But for some reason, I never really thought about the 354 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: whole bridge from earth to heaven, despite the fact that 355 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: most in most traditions, you're putting a star or an angel, 356 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: you know, a heavenly being on the very top of 357 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: the tree. Like you couldn't have it. It couldn't be 358 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: anymore clear when you think about it, is tree is 359 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: in your house, reaching up and connecting your house to heaven. 360 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: We actually have a ceramic tree now, we just have 361 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: like a little like one ft tall ceramic tree. So 362 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: maybe that's why I stopped thinking that it doesn't reach 363 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: to the heaven. What does it mean that we put 364 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: gifts under the tree you have really like the root 365 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: system of the tree would be the underworld. Yeah, all 366 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: of our gifts are from Hell. I'll leave that one 367 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: for the listeners to figure out. All right, we should 368 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: probably take a quick break, and when we get back, 369 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: we will jump into some various global examples of the 370 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: sacred Tree, the Tree of life, the Holy Tree, so 371 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: that we can further ground this discussion. Alright, we're back, 372 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: So why don't we start with the example that is 373 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: probably most obvious for many of our listeners, the jude 374 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: and Christian tree. We were already kind of getting into 375 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: it with a Christmas tree, that's right. Yeah. Western audiences 376 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: are likely familiar with the trees of Eden Uh and 377 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: the Fall of Man and the Bible. Humans were denied 378 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: the fruit of the Tree of eternal life, but the 379 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: ate of the Tree of knowledge. Later in Christianity, the 380 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: god incarnate Jesus Christ dies upon an artificial tree of sorts, 381 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: the Cross and Uh. In that essay that I was 382 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: referencing earlier um ecologist gear hess Mark, he quotes a St. 383 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: Justin mar who said that the Lord quote reigned from 384 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: the tree, meaning both the Cross and the Tree of life. 385 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: So two were kind of combined into one symbol. I 386 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: never thought about that before that the cross is a 387 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: tree a dead tree, weird. And the way the crown 388 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: of thorns too, well, yeah, you can definitely make that 389 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: case as well. Huh. Now, outside of just the Christian tradition, 390 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: in Jewish tradition, we have plenty of examples of this 391 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: as well. The minora, for example, symbolizes the expansion and 392 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: illumination of consciousness in the image of the tree. Yeah, 393 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: and obviously, as I mentioned earlier, the tree is represented 394 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: in Christianity by the tree that's in the Garden of Eden. Interestingly, 395 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: the Christian Church interpretation seems to be one of the 396 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: only ones that associates the tree with guilt and sin. 397 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: It became a loathsome quote tree of temptation only in 398 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 1: Christian Europe, So that's kind of interesting. As we go 399 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 1: through our other examples here, you don't really see that. Yeah, well, 400 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you could make a case that, 401 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: like the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of of 402 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: life in Christian traditions, like they're they're not really vilified 403 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: so much as like humans were unsuitable consumers of either fruit. Yeah. Yeah, 404 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: that's true. That's true. So this leads us to our 405 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: second example, which is connected to Judaism, which is the 406 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: Jewish mystical doctrine known as Kabbalah. This is one of 407 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: the ones I mentioned at the top. The Seffirof is 408 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: another tree of life within the Kabbala that represents a 409 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: theory of ten creative forces that intervened between the divine 410 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: in our world. Most people probably are familiar with the 411 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: terms Seferrath from Final Fantasy seven. I believe that's the 412 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: end boss. But if if you, if you have so 413 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: much as looked up Kabbala on Wikipedia and even just 414 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: glanced at it, you've probably seen this symbol like this 415 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: is the Probably you could say this is the chief 416 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: symbol of the cab Yeah. The right side of the 417 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 1: Seffroth represents principles of unity, harmony, and benevolence, and this 418 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: I as associated with masculinity. The left side is a 419 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: side of power and strict justice that is seen as 420 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: the female side, and it represents the fearsome awe of God. 421 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: Now this is not me, this is from the literature. 422 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: When unrestrained, the side, the feminine side, gives rise to evil. 423 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: So it's pretty obvious that there's some sexist and gendered 424 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 1: systems going on within Cabala, even from the get go. 425 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: But I have to be honest that I don't know 426 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: enough about Cabala other than that basic reading of it 427 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: that I can't comment any further on it. So if 428 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: there's people out there that know it much better, maybe 429 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: maybe it's not sexist. Maybe it makes sense. The way 430 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: that it probably makes sense is because the middle column 431 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: represents an ideal balance between mercy and justice. So it's 432 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: a balancing between gender identities. Yeah, and it recognizes that 433 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: the universe itself could not survive without both of these. 434 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: I looked at this paper by m. Dan See that 435 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: came out in twenty eleven called Archetypes and the Spheres 436 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: of the Tree of Life. It was published in the 437 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: Scientific Journal of Humanistic Studies, and Dancy says cobbalists consider 438 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: that by becoming more and more conscious of these archetypical forces, 439 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: life may become a meaningful adventure based on increased consciousness 440 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: and on the knowledge of the divine uh and Dancy 441 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: primarily in this paper is citing a book by Gareth 442 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: Knight that's called A Practical Guide to cobbalistic symbolism, and 443 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: it recommends the idea really of the suffer rath here 444 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: is training the mind through special techniques like meditation, so 445 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: that you can further understand the archetypes that are within 446 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: this tree of life. So these realizations that come from 447 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: meditating on this are important and cobbalistic practice because it 448 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: allows the significance of the ramification of those symbols to 449 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: be better understood. The basic idea here is that by 450 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: understanding the archetypes of the tree of life, we can 451 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: better under stand our own nature and then subsequently become 452 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: better versions of ourselves. That sounds nice. I don't know 453 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: a ton about cobbalism other than you know, the connections 454 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: it has obviously some of the occult things that you 455 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: and I have covered in the past. Uh, there's some 456 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: interesting like overlap there. But also obviously it had like 457 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: kind of a pop culture surge, what would you say, 458 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: in like the mid two thousand's, Yeah, I think so. 459 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: I think that was around the time that I picked 460 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: up a really really well um pageinated Cabbala book. Like 461 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: I I didn't have enough time to really get into it, 462 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: but I was leafing through it and I realized, wow, 463 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: this the layout in this book is just amazing. They 464 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: do such a great job with the symbols and these 465 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: little explanations of everything. But then a friend's birthday came 466 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: up and we're like, oh crap, we need to get 467 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: him something. Let's give them this book, and I haven't really, 468 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: I haven't picked that book back up again from another Well, 469 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: it seems like the celebrity that most people associate with 470 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: this is Madonna. I believe that she was pretty heavily 471 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: involved with with Cobbalism, but that's about the extent of 472 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: my knowledge of it. It seems like, though, when whenever 473 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: I've read over these kind of very basic explanations of 474 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: the symbology, it's very similar to lots of other cultures. 475 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: So it's it's not all that much mystic or occult 476 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: in the sense of that it's different from other things. 477 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: All Right, So we've hit Christian and Jewish tradition. We 478 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: should probably touch in on the Middle East and Islam. Yeah, 479 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: so this example isn't necessarily Islamic in nature, but some 480 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: people believe that the tree of life symbolism actually originated 481 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: in the Middle East, maybe also Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Greece, 482 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: so somewhere in that general area. Now gear offt is 483 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: an almost fourteen thousand square kilometer area that's in southeastern 484 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: Iran and it had great influence on cultural developments of 485 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: the third millennium BC in the Bronze Age, so this 486 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: is seen as a potential area for where this actually 487 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: all star it out today. Giraffe is also the name 488 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: for a city that is in the Kerman Province of Iran, 489 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: and in ancient Iranian religions, there is some evidence that 490 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: cypress trees were considered divine because they were brought from 491 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: heaven by Zarathustra, but the date tree is more commonly 492 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: a symbol of fertility, that is throughout both Egypt and Mesopotamia. 493 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: So some of the first depictions of the Tree of 494 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 1: Life seemed to be either date trees or palm trees, 495 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: but cypress trees are also associated with it. Uh. These 496 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: are the things that are these trees growing around in Afghanistan, 497 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: so they're associated and this is where that goat Ibec 498 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: symbology seems to come from as well. It's directly related 499 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: to this area of the world. Uh. There's this paper 500 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: by res Garad that came out this year has this 501 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: great overview of symbology and the Journal of History, Culture 502 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: and Art Research, and they use this visual structure, credibility, 503 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: and aesthetics to conduct an analytical and semantic survey of 504 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: how trees and goat symbology is used in artwork from 505 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: this particular region. It's it's pretty interesting. Yeah. This all 506 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: this also reminds me of our Zoophilia episode where we 507 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about about humanity's closeness to nature 508 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: and closeness to animals through most of its history. So 509 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: it seems natural that you would look to animals and 510 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: as you're thinking about yourself and your world, you use 511 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: them as mirrors, you use them as symbols, and and 512 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: of course you would look to trees as well, in 513 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: much the same way that you know, we would look 514 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: to our the digits of our hands and feet and 515 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,239 Speaker 1: end up basing our number systems on those. So, um, 516 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I would imagine this is just I'm just 517 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: going off the cuff here. This is not the notes, 518 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: but they if you're an early civilization, you're going to 519 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: base your community around areas that have a ready water 520 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: source and plenty of trees. You know, for lots of reasons. Um, 521 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: so yeah, it seems a lot are all that the 522 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: tree would be the center of the community. All right, 523 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: let's look at a few other areas of human tradition. 524 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: So the ancient Egyptians, how the acacia tree is sacred, 525 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: the first couple Isis and Osiris are said to have 526 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: emerged from it, and there are there are various traditions 527 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: of holy trees and spirit trees, at least in African traditions. 528 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: This gets into this whole legacy of of of trees 529 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: being a place where the spirits of the dead reside 530 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: the people, people transform into trees and sometimes you know, 531 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: trees transform into people. There's been there being this, this 532 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: this strict link between the two. Now if you get 533 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: into Hinduism that there are some wonderful examples here as well. 534 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: So Hinduism has no singular creation story. It has many 535 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: uh there there's there's no singular creation, but rather periodic 536 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: cycles of creation. And this is just one of innumerable 537 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: universes in this view of the cosmos. So in in 538 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: our reality, the ideas that it all begins in a 539 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: vast ocean, a serpent sleeps on its surface. Vishnus sleeps 540 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,479 Speaker 1: in its coils, and a lotus sprouts from his navel, 541 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: and within it is Brahma, and he's urged to meditate 542 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: on the nature of of his coming creation and finally 543 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: splits the lotus into three forms heaven, sky, and Earth. 544 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: Everything else stems from this. So while it's not a 545 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: tree per se, we still see the growth of a 546 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: plant as the means of explaining cosmic emergence. And then 547 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: also Hinduism holds them the ashvata or the sacred fig 548 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: as holy, which we referenced in the opening reading from 549 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: the Bagavadgita. Speaking of which the that reading referenced the 550 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Banyan tree. I think that's how you say banyon Banyan. 551 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: That tree is the perfect representation of a sacred tree 552 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: with cosmic principles because it has aerial roots that come 553 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: down from its branches. I've never seen one of these. 554 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: It sounds super cool. It comes the roots, come down 555 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: from the branches and then take root in the ground. 556 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: So the appearance suggests the tree is actually rooted in 557 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: the heavens. That seems really interesting. And then I think 558 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: that this is connected to Buddhism, right, yeah, Yeah, it's 559 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: said that Siddharta Gattama experience enlightenment under the Banyan or 560 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: sometimes it's referred to as the Bodhi tree, and thus 561 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: became the Shakyamuni Buddha, the often just referred to as Buddha. 562 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: And you see this depicted in a lot of Buddhist 563 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: iconography and uh and and sometimes just happenstance to. For instance, 564 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: if you've anyone who's ever been to Thailand, if you 565 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: go to the Ruins of Youth, ya, there's this iconic 566 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 1: Buddha head, a statue head that has been overtaken by 567 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: the roots of a tree. Yeah, and that's interesting. So 568 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: tons of photos have been taken. I was gonna say, 569 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: lots of symbolic connections there. Yeah. Now, we've talked a 570 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: bit in the past about sacred plants in Chinese mythology, 571 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: Chinese traditional medicine, folk traditions. We've also touched on Chinese 572 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: cosma oology and how there are a few different cosmic 573 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: origin stories. But the Chinese definitely have a world tree 574 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: or two. They have actually have quite a few sacred trees. 575 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: So I was reading about this in A Burial's Chinese Mythology, 576 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: which again i've referenced this this text on the show before. 577 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: It's just a wonderful book on Chinese mythology, and she 578 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: she references uh the Chien MoU sky ladder uh, and 579 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,719 Speaker 1: she says that China MoU literally means building tree. At 580 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: any rate, it's situated at the center of the world, 581 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: so centered that it produces neither shadow nor echo. It 582 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: was created by the Yellow Emperor, and it grew into 583 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: the sky, and having reached the impenetrable barrier of the heavens, 584 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: it spreads across its expanse and quote likewise above the 585 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: barrier of the ends of the earth, creating gigantic coils 586 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: and the sky and huge root tangles in the earth. 587 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: Then the gods used this sky ladder to ascend and descend. 588 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: And it's pnk is purple, it's blossoms black, and its 589 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: fruit is yellow. Okay, So this is definitely a world tree. 590 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: It's that vertical tradition of going up to the heavens exactly. 591 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: Now you have other cosmic trees and Chinese tradition, including 592 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: the Trinity mulberry, the search tree, the accord tree. There's 593 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: the leaning mulberry tree. And this is where the ten 594 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: sons roosted in ancient times before the hero you the 595 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: Archer shot the nine surplus sons down. That's one of them. Sorry, 596 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: remind me of this because we talked about it in 597 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: a previous episode. Isn't you the Archer one of those 598 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: uh like mythological iterations of the hero symbol? Yeah? Yeah, 599 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: so that The idea here with this story is that 600 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: there was a time when there were ten sons and 601 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: it was just burning the earth up. You know, we 602 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: couldn't have the crops wouldn't grow. And then the heroic 603 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: Archer comes forth and he's able to shoot the nine 604 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: surplus sons out of the sky, leaving just one son 605 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: to to light and warm the world. Oh wow, he 606 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: would be perfect for the end of our Uninhabitable Earth 607 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: episode that we just recorded. Once the earth the sun 608 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: starts turning into a red giant, he can just shoot 609 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: it down. That's right. As long as he has one 610 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: arrow left in the quiver, we're good, right. Uh. In 611 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: Chinese tradition, there's also the giant peach tree, which also 612 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: tangles against the barrier of heaven. Uh. The peaches here, 613 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: they provide immortality to those who consume it, and it 614 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: also serves as a bridge between realms. I have a 615 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: quote here that Beryl provides in her book Uh and 616 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: this is This is from an older Chinese text in 617 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: Sane See there is two show mountain. On its summit 618 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: is a huge peach tree. It twists and turns over 619 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: three thousand leagues among its branches. On the northeast side 620 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 1: or what is called goblin gates, through which a myriad 621 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: goblin's pass. On top. There two gods. One is called 622 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: Holy Shoe, the other is called Yulu. These lords supervise 623 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: and control the myriad goblins. Whenever a goblin does evil, 624 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: they bind him with a reed rope and feed him 625 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: to tigers. Then the Yellow Emperor devised a ritual ceremony 626 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: so that they could expel the evildo or in due season, 627 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: they set up a large peachwood figurines and painted images 628 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: of Holy Shoe and Yulu and a tiger on gates 629 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: and doors, and hung reed ropes from them so as 630 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: to harness the evil. So some of you probably sat 631 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: up while you're listening to this and went, wait a minute, 632 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: goblin's Yeah, but it actually makes sense across cultures. So 633 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: this is here's one of the amazing connections we're gonna make, 634 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: all right, So let's go from Chinese mythology to that 635 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: section that Robert just read to us, right, sounds a 636 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: little Lord of the Rings e right, Yeah, yeah, Goblin gates, 637 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: Goblin spelling out of the into out of other realms 638 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: onto our ours, crawling down the world tree. Yeah, and 639 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: then you take that, imagine the little Indiana Jones dotted line, 640 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 1: and you're traveling across the world to Norris culture. And 641 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: then we get the egg DRIs Cill tree that I 642 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top. And this is very Lord of 643 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: the Rings. In fact, I would imagine that it probably 644 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: in aspired a lot of Tolkien's mythos, right. But the 645 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: idea here is in the twelfth century Icelandic scholar, poet, historian, 646 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 1: and politician Snorri Sturlinson wrote about Igdrasill in his epic 647 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: poem The Ada and Igdrasill. A lot of you are 648 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: probably familiar with this, like myself, mainly from Thor and 649 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: Marvel comics. So the Thor movies are pretty big right now. 650 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: And then in the comic books, really Stanley and Jack 651 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: Kirby were just kind of like, hey, let's take this 652 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: entire entire cultures mythology, and we'll just bastardize it and 653 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: turn these into superheroes, uh and make them talk like 654 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: they're in a Shakespearean play. Well, that's that's that's kind 655 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 1: of that's sal mythology works. Yeah, take what came before 656 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: and then you you repackage it for the current audience. 657 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: Exactly in the original Norris mythology, Igdrasill is also a 658 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: bridge between all of the great realms of existence. In 659 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: its middle is Asgard, but also reaches the realms of frost, 660 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: giants and Niflheim. I think is how you say it, 661 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: which is the underworld or the realm of the dead? 662 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: Going off of my Marvel knowledge, not of the research 663 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: into Norris mythology, I think there's also places where their 664 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: dwarves there's like a dark elf place, like there are 665 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: different the nine realms that they reference that are connected 666 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: to Igdrasill have like different sort of D and d 667 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: Lord of the Ring species that exist in each one. Now, 668 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 1: there are three sacred springs that are supposed to be 669 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: beneath Igdrasil. The first is the Spring of Wisdom and Knowledge. 670 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: The second is the Well of Destiny, that's guarded by 671 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: the norns, who are the sisters of fate. Uh And 672 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: the last is the river of life that carries the 673 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: souls of the dead back to be reborn into their 674 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: next incarnations. So you can see Idrisilla is both a 675 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,919 Speaker 1: world tree and a tree of life. It's pretty interesting. Now, 676 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 1: Idrisill is one of those trees that has a serpent. 677 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,919 Speaker 1: Remember we were talking about how sometimes there's goats, sometimes 678 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: there's dragons, sometimes there's serpents. If you just sill serpent 679 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: is nid hog and this is a serpent that gnaws 680 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,919 Speaker 1: away at its roots. But this serpent is kept at 681 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 1: bay by an eagle that lives in its upper branches, 682 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: and the eagle will come down occasionally and fight off 683 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: the fight off the serpent. The eagle itself is a 684 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: symbol of the sun. Again, coming right back to this 685 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: Chinese mythology. So it's kind of fascinating to see. This 686 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: is a perfect example of how far away these cultures 687 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: are from one another, and yet how similar their archetypes are. Yeah, 688 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: I mean it would be uh it would be it 689 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: would be unsettling if we didn't have all these additional 690 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: reads and uh um and and analyses to go off on. Yeah, so, uh, 691 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: similar to this, and this is what I wish we 692 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: had more time to get into, but unfortunately, you know, 693 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: we're just we've got too many trees. Uh. There's the 694 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: Yacht's tree in the meso American World tree culture. It's 695 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: very similar to others we've mentioned, especially these lad Us 696 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: two and it's represented in these cultures as the seabaw 697 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: tree and its access connects the earth in the sky 698 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: and its roots go into the underworld. Zebulba. Now the 699 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: Zebulba thing. This is going to be our segue. We'll 700 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: just talk real briefly about some pop culture examples. The 701 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: one that immediately came to mind for me after Thor 702 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: is Darren Aronofsky is The Fountain, which is about trees 703 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: of life and and they use the terminology for the 704 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: meso American tree a lot in that. And don't forget Avatar, 705 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: that's right central world tree at the heart of that 706 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: movie as well. You also see it in things like 707 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 1: American Gods, obviously because that's based on myths. But I've 708 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: mentioned World of Warcraft on the show before. I remember 709 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: there's a tree called nord Dressill in World of Warcraft 710 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: that's like literally like a tree that you you go 711 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,919 Speaker 1: to and it has its own you know, video game 712 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: mythology surrounding it. Also, remember you were talking about space 713 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: elevators at the beginning. I hadn't thought of this before. 714 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: The Dark Tower by Stephen King. The Dark Tower is 715 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: a world tree. It's just a variation on it. He 716 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: kind of takes the the idea of a false tree 717 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: and makes it true again in a weird way. Yeah, 718 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: and then of course we see the iterations of the 719 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: Trio life and a lot of pop culture. Obviously, Uh, 720 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: we can trace this back to Joseph Campbell, who we've 721 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: talked about in our myth episodes before, because it is 722 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: a common archetype that he mentions in his book The 723 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: Hero with a Thousand Faces, which is this book that 724 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: just like every screenwriter under the sun since probably like 725 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: the late sixties has been referencing. Alright, well, on that note, 726 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: let's take one more break, and when we get back, 727 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: we'll we'll start teasing a part the psychology and even 728 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: the science of this fascination, this obsession with tree symbolism. 729 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: Thank thank Alright, we're back, So we've done a pretty 730 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: good job. I think of showing just a lot of examples, 731 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: like putting the evidence on the table. Look, there are 732 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: all these world trees, they're very similar, they're all over 733 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: the world. But what we haven't answered yet is why, 734 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: why how is it that this happened? Well, one uh, 735 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: explanation that comes to mind, and I've kind of been 736 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: alluding to this a lot already. It has to do 737 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: with the biophilia hypothesis, which listeners to the show you 738 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: may remember that Joe and I did an episode on 739 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: biophilia hypothesis recently. It's a fascinating take on humanity's attachment 740 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: to nature. It's the work of of acclaimed American biologist 741 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: Edward O. Wilson, a highly accomplished scientist and author of 742 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: numerous books wonderful author, including N four's Biophilia The Human 743 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: Bond with Other Species, in which he defined biophilia as 744 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: humanity's innate tendency to focus on living things as opposed 745 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: to inanimate things any in an in effect, he argued 746 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: for an innate love of nature. He said, quote, the 747 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: object of my reflection can be summarized by a single 748 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: world biophilia, which I will be so bold as to 749 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 1: define as the innate tendency to folk us on life 750 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: and lifelike processes. Okay, so you can definitely see a 751 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: connection here where again, like all of these cultures are 752 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: focusing on the lifelike processes that are around them and 753 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: using this terminology to define both the immaterial and in 754 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: the material things that are around them right right now. 755 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: When it comes to evidence for this hypothesis and and 756 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: it remains a hypothesis there, there's various evidence that's presented, 757 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: including the universal appreciation for nature among human cultures, the 758 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: symbolic use of nature in language. So you know, think 759 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: of all the times just during the course of your 760 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: day that you compare your own behaviors and motivations or 761 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: those around you to the actions of animals or plants. Yes, yeah, 762 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, Like if you actually stopped yourself throughout 763 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: the day, or at least in my case, if I 764 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: stop myself throughout the day and realized how many times 765 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: I use UH similes or metaphors just in my my 766 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: general conversation that are alluding to animal activities or or 767 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: natural activities. And then also another bit of of of 768 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: supporting evidence is the spiritual reverence for nature across culture. 769 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: So animust, God's sacred environmental places and sacred trees. So 770 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: the idea here is that our attraction to the natural 771 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: world is just hardwired into us, and so of course 772 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: we build it into our metaphoric and symbolic understanding of 773 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: the world. Is pointed out by Robert Sommer in Trees 774 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: and Human identity, and this is collected in identity and 775 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: the natural environment the psychological significance of nature. Belief in 776 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: sacred trees and tree spirits is of very ancient things 777 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: and entailing both the creation of people from trees, the 778 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:47,720 Speaker 1: transformation of people into trees and UH. James G. Frasier 779 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: he discusses numerous examples of this in his work as well, 780 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: including uh uh the I believe it is the Diary 781 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: tribe of South Australia who regarded certain trees as their 782 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: fathers transformed. Some Philippine Islanders also believe the souls of 783 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: their forefathers reside in trees. These just to name a few, 784 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 1: we see. We see this legacy continue today even in 785 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: the form of memory trees, you know, planting planting a 786 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: tree in in remembrance of somebody who has died and 787 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: uh and some of the psychological uh, factors that are 788 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: involved there. So I had one example, and I didn't 789 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: know where to place this. This is the best spot 790 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: I could find. Maybe it's a biophilia related example. Uh. 791 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: It is actually thought that the world tree tree of 792 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: life symbology is why you find in graveyards and cemeteries 793 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: ancient trees that are often used, and they're often planted 794 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: next to springs of water. So I wonder if that's 795 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 1: related to this the idea of the spirits belonging to 796 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 1: the trees. Well, you know, if you think of a 797 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,879 Speaker 1: large tree growing in a cemetery graveyard, yeah, I mean 798 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense. Right, the underworld the place where 799 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: the dead go, that is where the bodies are are 800 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: literally laid to rest. It's providing sustenance to the tree. Yeah. 801 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: And then and then you have the tree growing up 802 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: into into the sky, and then it makes it makes 803 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: perfect sense. Now, there are various additional ways to tackle 804 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: the symbol of the tree, and UH. I found a 805 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,839 Speaker 1: number of different examples here. We're going to roll through 806 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: these and discuss these. Uh. And at least some of 807 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,959 Speaker 1: these are pointed out by by Richard Summer and again 808 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: in that work trees and human identity, which I highly recommend. So, 809 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: first of all, there's the Darwinian take on everything. The 810 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: roll of trees in a natural selection influence latent and 811 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: manifest preferences people as trees past and present. Uh, preferences 812 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: merged with self image. I am what I like, I 813 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,919 Speaker 1: like what I am. And also Darwin was a fan 814 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: of trees as symbols of evolutionary process he said in 815 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: fifty nine The Orde and of Species. I believe this 816 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 1: similarly largely speaks the truth. So when when if you've 817 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,319 Speaker 1: ever looked into a natural selection, you've probably or even 818 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: just to you know, flipped around and say a book 819 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 1: on dinosaurs, you've probably encountered these these trees, these essentially 820 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,400 Speaker 1: family trees of of how we think different species emerged 821 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: from each other. And these are known as phylogenetic trees. 822 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: And we're so we're still using the tree as a 823 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: way to understand who we are in the world. Yeah, 824 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: this was the science angle that I was mentioning at 825 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,439 Speaker 1: the top of the episode. The phylogenetic tree. Uh. It's 826 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: used in the sciences as a representation of evolutionary relationships 827 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: between all species on Earth, and one paper I downloaded. 828 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: Actually was all about this software that's being built, these 829 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: various tools to explore that representation that connects eight hundred 830 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 1: thousand to two point two million species together. The idea 831 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: being that you're reproducing the phylogenetic classification scheme that describes 832 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: evolutionary relationships, but you're using a tree as a map. Yeah. Yeah, 833 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,919 Speaker 1: now that that piece that I referenced earlier by gear 834 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: hest Mark Temptations of the tree. Uh. Now he he 835 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: made an interesting argument here. He said that phylogenetic trees 836 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: have a rhetorical power that's hard to shake. Yeah. He 837 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: reminds readers that ultimately these are only sketches of historical 838 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: hypothesis constructed from imperfect historical evidence. So they're not they're 839 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,280 Speaker 1: not set in stone or set in would rather uh 840 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: like the living physical trees. There's almost kind of a 841 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,640 Speaker 1: trap in referencing, uh, something that has a sort of 842 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: symbolic potency to it like that. That's interesting, Yeah, especially 843 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: like from my rhetorical background, Like I could totally see 844 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,319 Speaker 1: somebody writing like two dissertation trying to pull that all 845 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,840 Speaker 1: apart and how it's used. That's very interesting, And I 846 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: wonder if you could trace how tree symbology is used 847 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,359 Speaker 1: in political rhetoric as well, bringing it into a sort 848 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: of a more contemporary cultural point of view, because it's 849 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: interesting to think of what the tree is doing, you know, 850 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: because from a human perspective, at any given moment, a 851 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: tree is is a solid thing reaching from earth into 852 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 1: the sky. And yet at the same time it is 853 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: it is, it is growing, it is reaching in a 854 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 1: way that that a mountain is not. And when we're 855 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: aware of it, like we know that a tree starts 856 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: how small, and grows larger, but it takes takes place 857 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: over the course of a lifetime or multiple lifetimes. Well, 858 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: and then on top of that, it's vulnerable to a 859 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,319 Speaker 1: tree maybe chopped down, a tree maybe blown down by 860 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: the wind, whereas a mountain would not. Hopefully, no, I 861 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: mean the mountain over time. But I don't even know 862 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: to what extent that was. Uh, that that's what That's 863 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,399 Speaker 1: not something I've looked at in the research. But I'm 864 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: not sure to what extent ancient people's were aware of 865 00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:00,280 Speaker 1: erosions the mountains. Yeah, well, all of this could would 866 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,800 Speaker 1: potentially be explained by another aspect that we've already mentioned 867 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: here today. This is young Ian depth psychology. So the 868 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: idea here of the archetypes and human collective subconscious that 869 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,839 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier. There are some people that argue the 870 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: world tree itself actually has evolutionary origins, not phylogenetically, but 871 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,879 Speaker 1: as part of our collective unconscious, that it's like all 872 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: of us have this kind of programmed into our minds. 873 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: Were thinking about numbers with their fingers and thinking about 874 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,799 Speaker 1: other aspects of the world with treats. Yeah, outside of 875 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: Young's perspective, almost all world tree traditions seem to have 876 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 1: levels to them, and I didn't really mention this too much, 877 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,920 Speaker 1: but some of the examples that I provided, so for instance, 878 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,160 Speaker 1: like the suffer Rath and Idris Sill, they have variations 879 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: of levels. These range between eight and twenty two throughout cultures, 880 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,279 Speaker 1: and they seem to represent specific states of consciousness. So 881 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,759 Speaker 1: Idrisill is the example I'll use here. It's composed of 882 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: the nine worlds I meant and some of these earliers. 883 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: When it's mapped out, mid Guard, which is Earth's representation, 884 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,919 Speaker 1: is at the center of the trunk the world that's 885 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: where we live. The arrangement of all the other worlds 886 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: around it are North south east and west on the tree, 887 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: and those represent awareness and perception. But then there's worlds 888 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: that are above midguard and those represent higher levels of consciousness, 889 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,920 Speaker 1: and worlds below midguard that represent the unconscious mind. Now, 890 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,400 Speaker 1: just going off script here for a second, that immediately 891 00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: calls to mind Freudian psychology. Right, so did ego super 892 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,239 Speaker 1: ego That seems like Igors was representing all of that, 893 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: like thousands of years before Freud even put that to paper. Now, 894 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: another take on all of this is the phenomenological approach. 895 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,720 Speaker 1: This is the idea, and we've been talking about this already, 896 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 1: is that you have metaphors between the natural and the 897 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: human world. Here we have, you know, the roots, trunk, 898 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,200 Speaker 1: and the canopy of a tree, and these are mirroring 899 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: the infernal or such anian world, the earthly world, and 900 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,320 Speaker 1: the heavenly world. And uh. On top of that, people 901 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 1: in society are covered by fruits or flowers that are 902 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,759 Speaker 1: growing within the tree. A tree provides a first hand 903 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,440 Speaker 1: encounter with the world and our our place in it. 904 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: This made me think back to my last visit to 905 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: Zoo Atlanta. Yeah, all the time, they know you, they 906 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 1: know you probably at the gates, right, Yeah, well they 907 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: have they have this one aviary section and they have 908 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 1: a ton of birds in there from different parts of 909 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,920 Speaker 1: the world, and there's a large tree in there, and 910 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,359 Speaker 1: the birds make their homes in different parts of the tree. 911 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,319 Speaker 1: Like there's I think it's a scarlet um ibis that 912 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,360 Speaker 1: it only stays at the very top. It's like some 913 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,719 Speaker 1: it's like like like a heavenly bird. If we're thinking 914 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,239 Speaker 1: of this as a world tree, and others make their 915 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,960 Speaker 1: home and other portions of the tree. I believe those 916 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: ibises are natural to Trinidad and Tobago because when I 917 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,680 Speaker 1: visited there, she's almost fifteen years ago, they were all 918 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,319 Speaker 1: around naturally and they did the same thing. Yeah, it's 919 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,120 Speaker 1: a beautiful bird. So you can imagine what how how 920 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 1: seeing things like that in nature would then also affect 921 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: your interpretation of the tree and your use of the 922 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,800 Speaker 1: tree as a metaphor. Then, according to Summer, there's also 923 00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: the realm of ecopsychology, which I I think sounds an 924 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,239 Speaker 1: awful lot like biophilia, And maybe there's a there's more 925 00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 1: connection there that I'm not aware of. He says, quote, 926 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,719 Speaker 1: beyond the individual self, there is an ecological self that 927 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 1: is nurtured through contact with and concern for the natural environment. 928 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,919 Speaker 1: A person should feel at one with nature, and if 929 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: these feelings are absent or distorted, a healing process is needed. 930 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,600 Speaker 1: So the tree kind of becomes a way to engage 931 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,920 Speaker 1: in that reconnection. Like even even if you're in the 932 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: middle of a city and uh and and and maybe 933 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: there's not a nearby park, just the symbol of the 934 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,239 Speaker 1: tree can sort of get in touch with that ecological 935 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 1: biophilic legacy. All of this, the last two, especially phenomenal 936 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,480 Speaker 1: logical approaches and ecopsychological approaches, make me think of Cormac 937 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,960 Speaker 1: McCarthy's The Road, because the idea I believe behind that 938 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,880 Speaker 1: book is that it's thematically about our ecosystem and the 939 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,719 Speaker 1: basically like our mistreatment of the ecosystem. Right, And it's 940 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,520 Speaker 1: been a while since I've read that book. It's super depressing, 941 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 1: but basically I remember a lot of descriptions of dead trees. Yeah, yeah, 942 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,359 Speaker 1: that's that is a great book, a pretty bleak book. 943 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:32,279 Speaker 1: I've yet to read it as a father, um, and 944 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,360 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm quite ready to do that. I 945 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 1: can imagine that would be real tough, um, but certainly 946 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 1: I yeah, now that now that you mentioned Court McCarthy 947 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,719 Speaker 1: and the world tree, I wonder he trees come up. 948 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean, trees come up in every work of fiction. Really. 949 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's in the same It's kind of 950 00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,279 Speaker 1: the core argument here is that trees are such a 951 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: part of our world that they have become an inseparable 952 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,480 Speaker 1: part of our our symbolic understanding of our elves in 953 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,399 Speaker 1: the universe and cosmology, that it becomes this thing upon 954 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:09,040 Speaker 1: which we build our our boldest fantasies and our our 955 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,560 Speaker 1: darkest hors. So it's it's one of those things where 956 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,479 Speaker 1: I feel like you could probably tease apart any work 957 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 1: of literature and say, okay, here's my you know, three 958 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,240 Speaker 1: ball volume study of trees and Cornan McCarthy or trees 959 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: in the work of Shakespeare. I'm sure I'm sure someone 960 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,719 Speaker 1: has done. Yes. Yeah, Well, I think that's part of 961 00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: the reason why I wanted to end with this topic, 962 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,799 Speaker 1: because it seems like it's so universal. We're heading into 963 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,920 Speaker 1: Christmas season and it seems like we've found uh no, 964 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 1: no pun intended a route for the origin of the 965 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,480 Speaker 1: Christmas tree, right, but that it's just this thing that 966 00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: connects us all together no matter what our religion or 967 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:54,480 Speaker 1: ethnicity or creeds, whatever trees are important to us. Indeed, alright, Christian, 968 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 1: well well this was it, then, this was this was 969 00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,040 Speaker 1: your your final episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 970 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 1: So again I want to thank you for all that 971 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,680 Speaker 1: you've done on this show, with this show, helping to 972 00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,080 Speaker 1: grow this show over the past few years. Oh I, 973 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,719 Speaker 1: we look forward to keeping in touch with you in 974 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,600 Speaker 1: the future. Can you tell our listeners where they can 975 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: continue to uh, to listen to you, to read your 976 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,879 Speaker 1: work over the years ahead. Yeah, thank you, and thanks 977 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: again for having me on the show the last couple 978 00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,520 Speaker 1: of years. Everyone out there, and and this is Robert 979 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,560 Speaker 1: and Joe included. You can all reach me on Twitter 980 00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,960 Speaker 1: at Christian Sager, or if you want to email me, 981 00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:35,120 Speaker 1: for instance about this episode, uh, you can email me 982 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,719 Speaker 1: at Christian dot Seger at gmail dot com. I will 983 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,319 Speaker 1: also continue to be hanging out in our Stuff to 984 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,000 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind discussion module on Facebook, so you're not 985 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,560 Speaker 1: getting rid of me that easily. I'll be interacting with 986 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,560 Speaker 1: the awesome community that we have over there. I may 987 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:51,879 Speaker 1: not be here on the show anymore, but I'm still 988 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,759 Speaker 1: going to be actively writing and podcasting online, and as 989 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,280 Speaker 1: Robert alluded to, I'm continuing to do my creator own podcast, 990 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,640 Speaker 1: Super cont Text. Some of you are familiar with this, 991 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,880 Speaker 1: but if you've never heard it before, it's a podcast 992 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,840 Speaker 1: autopsy of media, how we consume it and how it 993 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 1: informs our everyday culture. In each episode, we try to 994 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,320 Speaker 1: understand the entertainment world we all live in, whether it's film, television, prose, music, 995 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,279 Speaker 1: or comic books. You can find it wherever you get podcasts, 996 00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,480 Speaker 1: or you can get it at super Context dot Libson 997 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,440 Speaker 1: dot com. I'll also be publishing a goodbye post to 998 00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,240 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com that will also 999 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,640 Speaker 1: cover all of this stuff. Is where you can find 1000 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,440 Speaker 1: me and uh, I imagine that we'll have like cross 1001 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: links between the podcast page and that blog page referencing 1002 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 1: back to both one another. That's right, And yeah, I 1003 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,359 Speaker 1: recommend everyone check out super Context, even if you if 1004 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,520 Speaker 1: you don't have time to listen to it when it 1005 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,720 Speaker 1: comes out. Check out the artwork. The artwork is always 1006 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,080 Speaker 1: amusing because you you do custom artwork for each episode. 1007 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,320 Speaker 1: I do, yeah, I hand draw, well, it's there digitally, 1008 00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,200 Speaker 1: but I draw the artwork for every episode, and they're 1009 00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 1: like weird little car tunes that are related to whatever 1010 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,880 Speaker 1: the topic is. Yeah, awesome, all right, well thanks again, 1011 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,680 Speaker 1: so that this is thanks, this is goodbye, and hey, 1012 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:11,799 Speaker 1: the rest of you, you want to keep up with 1013 00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,520 Speaker 1: the Stuff to Blow your Mind, make sure you follow us. 1014 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,760 Speaker 1: It's stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where 1015 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,240 Speaker 1: you'll find all the links to the various social media 1016 00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,760 Speaker 1: platforms that we have, including Facebook, including the discussion module 1017 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,120 Speaker 1: that we mentioned already. And if you want to get 1018 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,280 Speaker 1: in touch with us the old fashioned way, you of 1019 00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,160 Speaker 1: course can email us at blow the Mind at how 1020 00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,480 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. And yes, if if you have 1021 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,040 Speaker 1: something that is Christian specific that you send to us, 1022 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,439 Speaker 1: we will try and forward that to him as well. 1023 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:52,880 Speaker 1: Awesome and I will do my best to reply. For 1024 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it 1025 00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:12,120 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com? The next any believes four 1026 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 1: Start f