WEBVTT - Playing Augusta National & Three Courses Brian Schneider's Thinking About 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.200 And when I find my ball in a brid egg. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.840 Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday fridagg Bride egg Lie, 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:13.640 I'm about ready to run off of the hump. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.040 Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:45.320 I am your host, Andy Johnson. Today. I am excited 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.879 about this podcast. One of you know, something that made 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.160 me really happy about the Masters was our creative director. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.720 I guess that could be his title. Cameron Herdis won 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.760 the media lottery to play a gust National. Cameron's been 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.600 with us for a few years now and is really 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:10.000 responsible for making our long form videos on YouTube tick Our. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:12.360 You know, the design to see on a lot of 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.360 our merchandise is Cameron's work, and he is a very 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:21.839 very talented creative and he has He's also a golf 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:27.920 architecture nut. Cameron's won the Leado Competition, the Alistair McKenzie 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:32.720 Society Leado Competition. He's won that three times in his 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.559 young life. He's actually banned from the competition now, which 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.400 is kind of a bummer for him. So he's been 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.880 very into golf architecture since a young age, and for 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.400 him to get the chance to play Augusta National the 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.880 Monday after the Masters was really cool. So he joins 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.080 to chat about his experience, his thoughts on playing the 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.880 golf course. For the first part of this podcast and 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.919 then the second half, I'm joined by Brian Schneider, who's 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.160 becoming one of the most in demand golf architects in 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.720 the industry, and we talk about three golf courses that 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.919 he's thinking a ton about right now. So we kind 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.160 of just chat golf courses. This is going to be 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.360 a heavy golf course architecture golf course pod with Augusta 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:24.240 National and then the three golf courses that Brian Schneider's 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.960 thinking about the most right now. So before we get 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.800 into this podcast, let's talk about our friends at Maui Nui. Here, 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.520 speaking of something that I use a lot of at Augusta, 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.600 Mali Nui was a go to. It is hard to 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:44.200 eat healthy at the Masters in Augusta, Georgia, Maui Nui's 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.080 meat sticks were a savior for me. Mali Nui offers 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.920 the only one wild harvested meat that's completely stress free 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.000 and responsibly sourced. It's perfect for anyone looking to elevate 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.799 their meals with delicious, high quality protein. This is wild 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:06.359 harvested access deer from Maui. Uh this is the the 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.320 like most exceptional protein. I was actually telling some of 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.919 my neighbors about about Maui Nui and they're like, wait, 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.400 that's the access deer that and you know this is 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.679 a you know, one of my neighbors who's kind of 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.560 a health nut, he was like, that's like the supposed 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.480 to be the best protein you possibly can can eat. 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.720 And it is, and you know, one of the beautiful 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.680 beautyes is like you're saying, you're also you know when 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.400 you're doing this, it's a it's a good thing for 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.080 the environment, for the Maui environment who who have a 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:43.120 deer issue there. So Maui Nui Venison is offering Frida 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:47.120 egg listeners, a limited collection of my of my favorite 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.880 cuts and products, but the supply is limited. So if 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.680 you had to Maui Nui Venison, that's m a u 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:59.920 I n Ui Venison dot com slash egg you can 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.920 secure your access. So that's Maui Nui Venison, m a 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:10.320 u I n Ui Venison dot Com slash egg you 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.200 can you can check out Maui Nui. This stuff's delicious 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.800 and it's really good for you. I highly highly recommend it. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:21.160 All right, let's get to Cameron Heurdis on playing Augusta 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:31.719 National and his thoughts on Augusta National. All Right, Cameron Hurtis, 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.760 I would say you're our head of creative. I think 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:35.520 that's your title. 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:36.080 I'm not sure. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.360 We're not big on titles here at Friday Golf. You 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:44.120 spend a week trucking around the golf Augusta National. I 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.240 mean and when I say truck and you're you're carrying 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.440 around cameras. You're out there for basically like twelve hours 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.840 a day, up and down the hills. What are your 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.360 what are your Well, let's start this you while you're 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.760 on here is you won the media Lottery, you played 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.159 a guy to National on Monday. But I would love 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.920 to hear what you've learned the last two years spending 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.640 an immense amount of time at Augusta National with like 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.080 just getting around in terms of like patrons and the 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:16.760 golf course. 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.760 It's it is one of those things where the more 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.839 I felt much more comfortable this year working the Masters 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.960 tournament as a photographer. You know, the big thing with 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.800 media is that you do not get inside the ropes 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.040 access to the tournament, which I think is part of 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.120 the fun part, that's part of the challenge, but it 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:44.559 also means that you need to learn like the best 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:49.440 places to get shots of players, especially when the crowds build, 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.520 especially when Rory and Bryson are playing in back to 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:56.800 back groups or in the same group. So it's just yeah, 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.600 I mean I felt so much more comfortable this year. 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:06.120 You just figuring out spots to get to routes. And 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.480 I think the most important thing too, is like and 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.960 it it was important late and late Sunday, was just 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.200 being able to get to certain points quickly if you know, 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.320 like a group might be coming up seventeen and then 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.200 for example, Rory's playing fourteen and fifteen on Sunday and 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:28.520 you're trying to get places quickly, just like knowing if 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:33.120 there are shortcuts just getting around. I just I felt 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.200 like I learned a lot the last the first year 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.200 and then this year, just being able to move quickly 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:39.040 from point to point. 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.719 Yeah, Like a great example of that is like sometimes 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.240 you have to walk further to get somewhere faster, like 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.599 the direct route is so often not the fastest route. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.840 But like to me, like getting to the if you 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.320 want to watch fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, and it's like busy, 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.440 you have to get to the left side of fifteen 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.480 because then you could watch every single one of the holes. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:05.880 But if you're not on the left and it's hard 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.880 to get from amen corner to the left side of fifteen, Like, 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:14.400 that's a very challenging way to get place to get 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:16.920 to and you can do all kinds of things and 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.880 it you know, the key though, is getting across and 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:24.320 waiting at the one place the you know, I find 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.840 it's harder. It takes longer if you wait at the 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.960 layup area of fifteen to get across then it does 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.280 if you just walk around sixteen. 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.400 This is this is the big thing that I that 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.360 I remembered when you move from practice rounds to the 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.560 tournament days is the crosswalks and how important it is 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.360 and how yeah in a lot of cases, because all 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.400 of a sudden there's groups back to back to back, 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.400 whereas like practice round days, a lot of times you 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.120 have gaps and the crosswalks is open and it's easy 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:57.040 to get across the holes. But like even getting from 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.880 say the right side of nine back to the press building, 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:02.880 A lot of times I would just I would just 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.120 hoof it around nine Green and the one te which 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.680 is it's annoying because it's like a big hill to 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.320 get up there, huge hell. But you know, if there's 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.600 a group coming up nine and a group teeing off one, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.640 you might be sitting there for like ten minutes potentially, 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.800 like waiting for both of those crosswalks to clear. So 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.600 it's just stuff like that. Like, yeah, a lot of times, 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.440 like you said, you have to go around to get 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:25.840 somewhere more quickly. 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.600 So you played Augusta National and we're not gonna go 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:31.600 shot by shot here. 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:33.240 We don't want to. 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:38.720 Nobody, nobody needs that. Pj's raising his hand in the background. 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:45.880 He wants that. But uh, we're you're very into golf architecture. 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.920 I reference this in the intro. You've won the Leado Competition. 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.000 We'll talk a little bit about that at the end. 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.040 You've won the Leado Competition three times, you're banned from 0:08:55.120 --> 0:09:00.520 the event, which I think is humorous. But what was 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.959 I guess, you know, like I I had like some 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.600 takeaways when I got to like, you know, you you've 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.120 covered the event now two years, you spent a ton 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.760 of time on site. What was the biggest thing that 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.240 you picked up from being inside the ropes and playing 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.600 Augusta National that you hadn't picked up outside the ropes 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:22.200 or on TV. 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.280 I will start by saying, I intentionally haven't read your 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.199 piece or Brendan's piece from the last two years, just 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.439 trying to keep a clear mind. So if I like 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:34.800 hit some things that you guys talked about, I apologize. 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.800 Brendan wasn't on this podcast talking about his round. Oh 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.640 really yeah, Okay, so you know they had nobody has 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.000 heard of this for two years since me and Garrett 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.240 talked about my round, so this is kind of fresh. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:52.200 It's uh, I mean, it's just a strange experience. There's 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.079 a lot of spots on the golf course where you 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.959 feel like you can get close to or approximate like 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.800 an approach shop. But the there's a lot of spots 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.520 when you're finally inside the ropes that it feels really strange. 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.880 But I think I think the biggest thing I picked 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.319 up on and I wrote about it was just how 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.400 relentless the golf course feels from a golf perspective, and 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.160 how you just constantly feel like you're on a razor's 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:24.400 edge of like complete disaster at all times. And I 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.760 think when you're also struggling to hit shots, that gets 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:33.240 amplified a lot, and the danger areas sort of they 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.760 amplify in your mind. But yeah, it's just it's just 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:43.319 like this constant, constant sort of fear, and it's it's 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.840 tough to like relax and just like make a swing 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.280 a lot of times because you see short, you see long, 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.360 you see left, you see right, these these spots where 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.240 you know getting down into is just going to be 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:55.800 almost impossible if you miss. 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:01.439 As has Brandal Shambli Golf Channels brand simply coined it, 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:03.080 sensory blitz creak. 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.640 Yeah, it really it is. 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.880 And the thing that's ironic about it is that it 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.840 does all that and what you just said is perfect 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.480 is like, you know, it makes it really hard to 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.880 like swing the club freely, and it's like the the 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.480 number one thing that you have to do there is 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.840 play with freedom, because that's the only way you're going 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.480 to achieve the shots. They're achievable shots, all of them 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:36.079 are achievable. But to achieve them, there has to be 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.200 freedom in the swing because you can't just like guard 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.719 against something out there because then when you're guarding against it, 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:46.719 the margins are so so thin. 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.280 And I that's what I love about it is you 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.080 can always see there's always a route to the hole, right, 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.560 Like you can see the shot. A lot of times 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.679 you're like, yeah, if I just get the ball to 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.720 hear you, it'll feed in and it rewards great shots. 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.760 And we see that every year, Like guys shoot sixty 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.560 five sixty six pretty consistently if you're swinging the club 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:14.280 well during the tournament, like it is possible, but a 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.240 lot of but and so you can see those shots, 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.839 but it's just yeah, if you're not free, if you're 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.080 if there's any doubt in your mind, it's just it's 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.880 so difficult to find find those spots. 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.599 It's funny that that played out. So what you just 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.160 said like explains the tournament so well in the sense 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:37.840 of like so Rory and Bryson on Sunday, like there's 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.439 probably just a lot more rattling around in each of 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:45.240 their brains. Both of them are like pretty noted whether 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.760 or not, you know, like Bryson talked about somebody asked 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.520 him if he could do YouTube video at Augusta. What 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.760 do you do? He said, like the history and you know, uh, 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:59.480 Rory McElroy's got an incredible history mind, Like he could 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.240 probably like rattle off European Tour Player of the years 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.040 for twenty five straight years. You know, incredible history mind. 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.800 You think about like they they had this more more 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.520 stuff on their mind and they're playing really pretty good golf. 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.680 Bryson obviously was struggling with approach but scoring, scoring incredibly well, 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.719 and they go shoot seventy three, seventy five and it's 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.040 just a matter of like probably just not being as 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.920 free as they were the first two days or first 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:31.040 three days. You know, it's an amazing thing. Was there 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:36.480 a particular hole that stood out that you you hadn't 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:38.840 you know, maybe given enough. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:47.520 Credit to I would say probably the fifth hole. And 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.520 I think part of that is because I actually it 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:52.520 was the first hole I played really well and I 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.720 did make a birdie on that hole. It's a great 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.960 verd but it's like, which was like a top five 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:04.560 have golf moment for me in my life? Probably, But yeah, 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.480 that's a hole where a you don't you probably don't 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:10.520 go to it a lot as a patron or even 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.840 as a media member because it sort of sits isolated 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:14.600 up on the ridge. 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.520 It's agree that I started a personal rule that I 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.760 don't go to the fifth hole because I just don't 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:22.960 want to get stuck back there. 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.560 Yeah. I think I think there was one day, it 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.160 was Thursday or Friday, where I realized I just completely 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.240 missed it the day before. I just never walked up 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.280 to it, and like, yeah, it's kind of hard to 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.960 get to and you get stuck, and there's really no 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:36.880 reason to be down the right side of it unless 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.920 you're entering from the south gate, I guess. But it's 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:46.880 a really cool hole. And and I think the benefit 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.720 of playing the member tees on that hole is that 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.840 it allows you when you hit, if you hit a 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.320 good drive, to carry the bunkers down the left, which 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.120 I think is important. I think it's something they've lost 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.720 from the Championship teas, Like I think I think the 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.200 fact that it's supposed to set up more like a 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.040 road hole, you should be able to access the far 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.960 left side of the fairway because especially to that back 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:13.080 right Sunday pin, it really allows you to hit more 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.600 up the length of the green versus across the false front, 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:20.760 and then the pin is like two paces from the 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:22.280 back edge. I mean, it's like this one of the 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:28.480 scariest pins on the golf course probably so I think 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.560 that hole. I haven't watched it as much recently, but 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.400 it certainly clicked in my head more I think when 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.200 I played it and hit a couple of nice shots 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:37.840 on it as well. 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.960 That's I think that they did a renovation. It would 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.160 have been maybe twenty twenty. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.200 Ish for the fifth, yeah, some less, something like that. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.640 And they obviously moved the tea's way back. That was 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.480 part of their kind of moving a road, and it 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.520 reintroduced the hill, which I think is great for the 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.240 tea shot. It is, and I think the longest hitters 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.520 can carry the bunker. But if you think about those 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.960 bunkers in place of if you're thinking about the seventeenth 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.160 at the old course, the you know, in place of 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.160 the old course hotel and kind of the diagonal, like 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.600 they just that's what they're those bunkers are supposed to be. 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.760 And the bunkers don't mimic that strategy very well. They're 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:32.040 just kind of like there and very penal, and it 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:36.160 it just it doesn't promote any sort of thought of 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.160 like I'm going to try and get close to it, 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.520 because there's no there's no reason to be anywhere near 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.760 them because of how far I feel like, how far 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.840 they eat in and how they didn't incorporate. Like, to me, 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.440 the most interesting part of that hole is the ridge 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.920 on the left. Yeah, and that ridge on the left 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.440 is just not even in play people players. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.080 It would be amazing to see players challenging the left 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.280 side because if you miss left, like you're gone, you're 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.159 gone down the hill, down the ridge, you know. With 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.159 the current setup, and I think they kind of I 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.360 think with the way they push the t back, it's 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.560 sort of just straightened the hole more. And so guys just, yeah, 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.399 you just play right of the bunker because from I mean, 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.119 those bunkers feel like they're about twenty feet deep. So 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.480 in most cases they're so deep it's kind of just 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.520 an auto layup probably anyway, So guys just don't even 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.680 want to challenge them, so they play out to the 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:34.680 right and then they've got sort of a mid iron 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.480 in but it doesn't set up. But to me, like 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.800 the green makes so much more sense when when you 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.680 approach it from the left you can see sort of 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.240 the strategy and how it lengthens the green for you 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.120 on that approach out, which I think is really neat. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.560 It is such a cool green. And one of my 0:17:53.720 --> 0:18:01.080 perchase is always I go basically from four, two, six, 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.600 so I skip and I go behind six, which is 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.440 a great place to watch golf. And I always think 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.160 when I'm sitting behind six green of that ridge on five, 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.760 because you know, it really just like sits right above 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.359 the six screen, and how if that ridge was cleared 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.680 and that there was golf, Like how amazing of a 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.800 viewing place it would be to be watching five from 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:26.320 down low up. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:31.040 You know. And yeah, I love looking from six up 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.760 the hill to five bunkers. I mean they're like so 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.320 high up, like it's it's an impressive ridge, Like it's 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.720 significant and it's unique to the property. It's the only 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.760 hole that really does that, and it would be cool 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:43.960 to if you could see that across there. 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.280 Yeah, I think that's like it also like obscures how 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.320 cool the property is that there's this like back high 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.720 ridge that you only play one hole on and. 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:57.440 If you don't realize it, Yeah. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:02.159 Because it's so isolated the way it is like it 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:07.560 it with the trees in the ornamentals. It kind of 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.080 like you're kind of like in your own world over there. 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.120 It's like it feels like a separate wing to the house. Yeah, 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.600 but really it's just like it would be like if 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.160 you put it in like a housing term, it would 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.200 be like if you were on like a hallway above 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.280 your family room. You know, like if you had like 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.399 a open hallway above your family room and there was 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.879 like another room that like that you're looking down on, 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.879 and now it's just like it's just walled. It's just 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.600 a wall, right, and so you don't get that feel 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:42.000 of like being able to look down. 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.280 And but it is like one of the cooler holes 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:48.200 on the golf course, I sort of realized as I 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.760 played it too, which so there's that there's aspect to. 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.800 It's kind of I think it's probably the hole that 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:04.520 Mary's like dramatic topography with a with a super dramatic green. 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.800 It's the only hole that kind of has like both 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.040 the green and the topography amped up to like a ten. 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.840 Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, those greens are those pins are terrifying. 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.800 I mean the back ones are terrifying you because that's 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:22.359 the thing too, is the green is perched on the 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:26.080 edge of that ridge basically, and it just I mean, 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.600 I think there's maybe one or two times in my 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.560 life I've seen someone actually missed the bunker and go 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.960 all the way down the hill because it's I mean, 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:38.119 it's you're basically gone at that point. So that Sunday 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.040 pin feels like it's just hanging off a cliff essentially. 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.399 Uh So, yeah, that's a that's a cool spot. 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:54.120 In terms of shots, what were your three favorite individual 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.840 golf shots out there? Not like that you hit that, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.960 like you enjoyed the process of hit from like the 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.399 way you just looked at it and. 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:10.920 Saw it. I would say it's funny. The one that 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:15.920 I was dreaming about once, uh once I got selected 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:19.520 when I won the media lottery was the second shot 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.399 into eight, I think, which is really funny because you 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:25.400 can't see the green, like if you hit a good drive, 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.440 it's completely blind. But I am a sucker for blind shots, 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.119 and so I hit a Finally, I hit a good 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:34.919 drive on that hole, which was nice. So, I mean, 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.400 you can carry the bunker pretty easily from the member tees. 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:38.320 You're in the rory zone. 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:38.920 Then I was. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:39.520 I was. 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:41.879 I think I was past the past the crosswalk. I 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.879 think I had like one ninety into the like to 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.800 the pin to that middle pin, which was a really 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:50.760 neat pin. Also like I don't like right on that ridge, 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:53.800 right on the ridge sort of like so I ended 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.960 up about fifteen feet short and you're sort of putting 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.119 across the ridge, so it's sort of like a double 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:04.080 breaker and it just it's right on top. But yeah, 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:07.000 that for whatever reason, mostly because of the green, I 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:10.840 guess that was a hole where I really wanted to 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.480 hit a good drive and have a decent angle into 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:16.920 that green, which I did. I set up perfectly. I 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.040 was up the right and then you run up to 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:20.800 the top and there's like one pine tree in the 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:23.720 distance and essentially the top of one of those mounds 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:27.000 that you can use to like wine up your second shot. 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:29.600 And I hit a great shot, and then I thought 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.280 I pulled it a little bit too much, and I 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.200 was really concerned that I was gonna miss miss the 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.120 hills left, which like also would be a fun shot 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.399 to hit. But my caddy Bussy was standing up on 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:43.280 top of the hill and he gave me the thumbs up, 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.400 which was very exciting because I knew I was gonna 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.720 have an eagle putt on it, which was great. That 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:50.400 was a good one. 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:51.720 You didn't make it, did you. 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.600 I didn't make it. I left it like I hit 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:57.359 a good putt. I left it a probably six or 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:01.320 eight inches short because it kind of runs away after 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:05.600 the hole. It's a little bit scary. Uh, let's see 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.919 what other shots well. So, I mean fourteen was another 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:13.560 approach that I'd always wanted to hit and just had 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:15.240 a harend. I mean at that point, I was like 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:18.120 really struggling, and uh, fatigue. 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:20.639 I read you're right up. You have a righte up 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.720 on the website. But I think you said fatigue was 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.399 setting in. I mean, you've probably like I want to 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.760 do this justice. If I had to activate, I would 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:32.800 activate that. You walk with like twenty five pounds of 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:36.280 camera gear, forty to fifty thousand steps a day when 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:38.760 we go to when we go to the Masters. 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.880 That's the thing. And like you're so amped the whole 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:42.960 week that you don't even you're not even tired, So 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:45.359 you're not sleeping a whole lot either. No, And I 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:47.760 think and I realized that, Yeah, my legs at that 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:50.920 point I wasn't swinging the driver well, which is pretty 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:53.280 common for me, but at that point my legs were 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.240 completely gone, and I sort of I snap hooked it 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:01.159 into There's those two big fire throat bushes in between 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:04.200 fourteen and fifteen, like right right in the middle of 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:07.960 the trees. So I hit in the first one, took 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:11.520 a drop, hit a tree. It dropped into the second 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:16.159 fire thorn bush about fifty yards further up. So then 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:19.480 I took another drop and at this point, like I 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:21.080 think they were just going to pick up my ball, 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.240 and I was like, I want to hit a shot 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:26.160 into the screen, right like I've been dreaming of hitting 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:29.280 a shot into the screen into this Sunday pin. So 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:33.399 I hit a punch out. It just caught another branch. 0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:37.080 Of course, drops down about seventy yards from the green, 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:39.639 which is actually kind of a perfect distance. So I 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:42.600 had like a seventy yard pitch to that Sunday pin 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:47.119 which sort of sits in that bowl, and hit one 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:49.800 of the best shots of the day. One hopped it 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:52.879 onto the back slope and spun it almost into the 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:56.480 hole to like tap in, which was for like my 0:24:56.640 --> 0:24:58.440 eight or nine or ten or whatever I made on 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:01.320 the hole, which is great. That was a good one. 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:05.200 That's one of my big regrets about by round was 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:09.000 I blue my drive on I'm thirteen into the trees 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:11.680 right and had to lay up. And then on fourteen 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:13.760 I blew it into the trees right and I hit 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.200 the green, but it was like not the type of 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.480 shot that I wanted to hit into the green, you know, 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:21.040 like where I was like coming from in the trees, 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:22.600 and just it's such. 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:26.520 A hard T shot. No, it's such an awkward T shot. Fourteen, Like. 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:31.120 Rory talked about how he had trouble seeing the lines 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:35.240 on seven, fourteen, and seventeen all going that direction, and 0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:37.920 they like, if you think about them, they all play 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:40.600 like along the side of the hill and you have 0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:44.600 the camber, and it makes it makes the fairways feel 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:47.880 so small even you know, and obviously seven and seventeen 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:48.600 are pretty small. 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.720 It's one of my favorite parts of Augusta And something 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:56.360 I picked on picked up on the first time I went, 0:25:56.640 --> 0:26:00.399 was just how well the routing is constantly sort of 0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:05.560 working slightly against whatever the slope is. In order to 0:26:05.880 --> 0:26:09.240 hold the fairway, you've got to either take an aggressive 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.120 line or work the ball correctly into that slope. Whether 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:16.959 it's two, whether it's seven, fourteen, seventeen. Yeah, they all 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.359 sort of work slightly one direction. 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:23.600 I think that's the thing that doesn't get talked about 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:25.440 a ton about Augusta National. 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:26.439 Is that the. 0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:33.879 The routing. How often you play along side hills, Like 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:36.760 when you get a kind of I wouldn't call it 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:42.040 a heaving, maybe a heaving site you could, you could 0:26:42.080 --> 0:26:46.040 probably throw it in that category. Thats you want is 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.440 like so often you're playing up and down and over 0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:54.400 and there. The magic of it is that the topography 0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:57.560 allowed for so many holes to play along the slope 0:26:57.760 --> 0:27:00.399 like fourteen, like seventeen seven. 0:27:01.560 --> 0:27:05.240 I would recommend anyone to just look at look at 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:08.200 the topography map, the topo map of Augusta, of the property, 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:12.159 and just you just to me, the holes make so 0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:14.399 much more sense when you see them on top of 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:18.600 the topo lines because you can see how, hey, how 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:21.120 the waterways were working down the property in these valley, 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:24.280 these natural valleys that are created, like between two and 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:28.400 eight for example, and how those both feed in two 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.399 sort of feeds, both directions off the left and the 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:33.960 right as it works down the hill. But to me, 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:37.040 you just see these subtle little movements one direction or 0:27:37.080 --> 0:27:40.520 the other, and how they just so cleverly like routed 0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:44.600 the holes along and against those slopes. What's your last 0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:55.440 shot that you oh man, let's see. I uh, I 0:27:55.520 --> 0:27:57.399 mean I ended up. I hit a poor drive on 0:27:57.560 --> 0:28:02.480 three and I had like one twenty five. I was 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:06.520 left of the bunkers and I tried to get key 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:08.320 with it, so the ball came all the way back down. 0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:11.160 I was basically in the Scotti zone, which I feel 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:13.639 like you kind of just have to hit that shot 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:18.200 to realize how freaking insane it is, Like how hard. 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:20.320 I feel like they make it look so easy. 0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:24.520 It's I mean, I think the Sunday pin on three 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:28.720 like might be top three scariest championship pins in golf, 0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:33.320 like it's and to me, that green again, it's like 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:36.600 I've walked around at a bunch now, like at the tournament, 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:40.320 but when you're standing on it, it felt so much 0:28:40.360 --> 0:28:43.720 smaller to me standing on that green on the green 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:44.680 than off the green. 0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:50.080 I pretty much reave putts with my feet, and to me, 0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:54.200 the third green, my feet felt like on fire when 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:57.120 I stepped on them because it's so severe too. 0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:00.320 This was so severe. And that was one thing that 0:29:00.440 --> 0:29:03.240 I noticed this year was and it's not like I 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:06.560 did notice it, but when you're standing on say four 0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:09.200 t or you're walking down the right side of four 0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:11.640 and you look back at three, I mean you can 0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:14.040 see the entire third green just facing you, and you 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:18.800 realize how much it's pitched away from the approach shot. 0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:24.280 So yeah, so you feel like you have about a 0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:28.520 half an inch spot to land your chip shot on three, 0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:32.840 which I didn't quite do. And then I will say, actually, 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:35.400 as a follow up, one other shot was I ended 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:38.120 up on the middle tier on nine to that front 0:29:38.200 --> 0:29:42.280 left pin. I'm Bussy. My caddie, who's like a local 0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:46.920 legend and is an amazing green reader, gave me a 0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:50.240 pretty fantastic read. But that, honestly was probably one of 0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:54.000 the best shots I hit. Was that lag put to nine, 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:56.479 which still went about two and a half feet by, 0:29:57.000 --> 0:29:59.719 But uh, yeah, that was kind of a cool one 0:29:59.720 --> 0:30:02.840 as well. Yeah, that. 0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:05.480 You had a good caddy, huh. 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:10.040 I think Bussy was great. Brendan had him. I don't 0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:11.640 think you had him, did you. I didn't have them. 0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:12.720 You didn't have him. 0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:18.720 Paid worth his weight on the greens I hear. 0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:22.240 I'm one hundred percent. I like shudder to think about 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:24.440 what it would have happened. Hey, if I had been 0:30:24.480 --> 0:30:27.440 reading those greens by myself and be if there had 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.200 been some I mean, I'm sure there's a few guys 0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:31.240 out there that can read the greens well. But it 0:30:31.360 --> 0:30:33.760 was pretty clear. And the interesting thing too, was that 0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:39.640 he was clearly struggling to read some of the new greens, 0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:43.040 like fifteen. He knows the greens so well in his 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:46.320 head that he gave me a read on fifteen and 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:48.760 it just like didn't quite do what he thought I 0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:50.680 was going to do. And I mean that was a 0:30:50.720 --> 0:30:53.400 green that got rebuilt last year, which was kind of 0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.880 an interesting little note that I had from that round. 0:30:57.000 --> 0:30:58.960 Also, that's fascinating. 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:03.720 Yeah, they were, and they were sixteen was was quite 0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:06.240 firm too, like, so I was sort of I was 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:08.280 picking his brain a little bit on that green too. 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:09.560 What it what it changed? 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:15.280 But the leather was he got breezy, breezy hot that 0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:17.680 had to be die, that had to be intense. 0:31:18.240 --> 0:31:21.160 It was hot, and it was blowing like a steady 0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:26.840 twenty from the south, which meant that six was straight 0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:29.920 down wind, and I will tell you I hit a 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.840 good Yeah, I hit a good shot. It was right 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:36.640 at the pin, landed about two feet over the green, 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:41.360 and shot forty yards basically up between the tea's on 0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:44.320 seven And normally, like during a tournament, there'd be patrons 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:46.800 there to like stop the ball, but there was nothing 0:31:46.880 --> 0:31:49.680 to stop it, and I ended up about forty yards 0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:52.040 over the green on six. Yeah, where'd you end up 0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:52.440 after that? 0:31:53.680 --> 0:31:53.800 Uh? 0:31:53.920 --> 0:31:58.960 You know what, I hit a phenomenal chip and yeah, 0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:02.080 I kept it on the top tier maybe about twelve 0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:05.640 or fourteen feet, which was actually a really good shot 0:32:05.720 --> 0:32:06.040 from there. 0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:11.200 I think if I were playing from forty yards over 0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:14.320 that green to that backpin, I think i'd play for like, 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:19.120 just like if you're thinking about it directionally coming from back, 0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:22.280 I'd play for like short left fringe, just like be 0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:24.640 like yeah, playing to just like barely like creep it 0:32:24.720 --> 0:32:27.040 into the fringe so I could put the next one. 0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:29.680 I knew that it was like one of those shots. 0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:33.560 I mean, you're out there, I'm assuming like, hey, this 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:35.280 might be the only time I play. I'm going to 0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:37.120 try these shots, and I know that if I don't 0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:39.520 pull the shot off, it might end up forty yards 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:42.840 down the front of the green, but I hit it 0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:46.000 perfectly and it like just had the right amount of 0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.600 spin and kept it on that top tier, which was 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:49.560 which was huge. 0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:52.800 All Right, personal question, who's the first person you called 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:53.560 after your round? 0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:59.040 You know what? With the time difference because my parents 0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:01.120 are on the West coast too, I think the first 0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:05.840 person I called was my girlfriend Jess actually, but she 0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:08.720 was very excited. She actually, I mean I was out. 0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:11.520 She was texting me Sunday because she was I mean, 0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:13.880 everyone was watching on Sunday. So she even she was 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:15.840 at home, home alone and she turned the golf on 0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:19.160 Sunday and was watching, So she was very excited about that. 0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:22.920 It was wild how many texts I got from like 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:26.640 random people that don't watch golf that watch Sunday. 0:33:27.240 --> 0:33:30.160 It really I know you and Brandon talked about it already, 0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:35.320 but it really hit and Trevor hit a nerve. I think, yeah, 0:33:35.360 --> 0:33:39.600 it just like sort of hit hit everyone. So it's cool. 0:33:39.680 --> 0:33:42.080 It's been cool to just like I've seen some friends 0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:44.480 since then too, and it's just been cool to talk 0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:47.360 about and relive all the moments Sunday and Monday. 0:33:48.160 --> 0:33:51.120 Yeah, I was I was talking to a random dad 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:57.280 at my town's Easter egg hunt about it, and I 0:33:57.360 --> 0:34:00.240 mean it was just fun to chat again about I 0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:03.400 think it'll be a tournament we talk about for a 0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:08.839 long long time. What any grand takeaways from this year's tournament? Yeah, 0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:13.319 You're always a take factory, you know. Yeah, You've got 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:16.200 the most takes at the company that nobody hears. 0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:18.400 Nothing but hot takes. You know. 0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:19.000 It was. 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:27.319 It was tough, like you are working, but like I'll admit, 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:32.600 I'm a Rory fan. It was incredibly emotionally exhausting, and 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:35.600 I mean there are points where I'm just like looking 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:38.040 at other fans and we're just like shaking our heads, right, 0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:42.759 I wrote about uh yeah. I mean Brendan talked about 0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:45.680 after he hit the T shot on twelve like it 0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:48.080 was like an exodus. Everyone was just like walking up 0:34:48.120 --> 0:34:52.000 the hill, right, And my mind was like thinking, should 0:34:52.000 --> 0:34:53.920 I just go try and get a spot on eighteen? Now? 0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:56.719 Should I just like set up camp and like get 0:34:56.719 --> 0:34:59.520 an angle as he's coming up eighteen because he's obviously 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:03.920 gonna win. And watched him hit his T shot and 0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:07.719 lay up on thirteen, and then when he dumped it, 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:11.080 it was like just had to throw the entire game 0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:14.239 plan in the trash and like figure out what to do. 0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:18.040 I will say I think Rory got jammed by a 0:35:18.160 --> 0:35:21.080 catch basin on thirteen, if I'm being completely honest. There's, 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:24.600 like he said he was on an upslope. Yeah, so 0:35:24.719 --> 0:35:28.719 there's I found the spot. It's right near Raysed Creek. 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:33.040 But there's like this big drain that sits right down there, 0:35:33.280 --> 0:35:35.200 and I think his ball just collected into it and 0:35:35.320 --> 0:35:38.560 he ended up on the front of it on the upslope, 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:41.320 which it was kind of yeah, I mean it's like 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:43.200 kind of an awkward shot. I think he kind of 0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:44.400 got jammed on thirteen. 0:35:44.520 --> 0:35:46.600 Not gonna lie, I don't think he had a good 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:49.680 shot whether or not he got jammed by the catch facin, 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:54.240 but it could say the shot a little more difficult. 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:57.719 It is, And like that's the thing about Augusta is 0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:01.759 in the back of your mind and you're thinking, if 0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:05.680 I pull this a little bit, I'm gonna have forty 0:36:05.760 --> 0:36:09.120 feet down the hill and like I'm gonna have to 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:11.920 hit the most incredible two putt like to get out 0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:14.000 of here with a par right, And so you just 0:36:14.080 --> 0:36:17.359 start to maybe like, yeah, shade a yard or two right, 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:19.719 a yard or two right and then all of a 0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:22.600 sudden you make, yeah, like an uncommitted swing, and that happens. 0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:27.759 I think the frustrating thing about it is like if 0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:33.920 you the greens are I think, like what make Augusta 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:39.279 so amazing and and in the pinnable locations they are 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:44.400 very pudtable, but the slopes are so severe. And what 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:50.680 drives me crazy is how like people don't take away that, like, okay, 0:36:50.920 --> 0:36:57.400 like if you have heavy contouring that creates these great 0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:02.440 like locations on greens that then in that combined with 0:37:02.560 --> 0:37:07.000 some width, is going to make some really interesting strategy. Yeah, 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:11.360 nobody takes away that the greens, Like we end up 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:14.719 with people softening, Like I mean, all the clubs in 0:37:14.800 --> 0:37:19.319 the Northeast are just not all I'm stereotyping. So many 0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:23.440 historic clubs in the South is in the Northeast are 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:27.400 softening their greens for green speed because they want to 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:30.200 have fast greens. And it's like, but the heavy contouring 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:34.960 is what makes the greens special and dynamic and creates 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:37.560 that like what you just said, where in the back 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.120 of your head you shade because you know what if 0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:42.799 I miss this left, like all of a sudden I'm 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:46.680 going to you know, have this really hard to put. 0:37:47.440 --> 0:37:50.040 That's the thing. And you and Trevor hit on it 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:52.719 and it I think you have to play it to 0:37:52.840 --> 0:37:56.239 realize it. But like you hit a hit. I was 0:37:57.120 --> 0:37:59.200 back left on four, I was on the green, but 0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:02.719 I had like, you know, forty five feet from the 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:06.080 top shelf to the bottom shelf. I hit an incredible 0:38:06.160 --> 0:38:09.439 lag putt and it went six feet by, and it's like, yeah, 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:11.480 I just hit a great shot. And you but you're 0:38:11.560 --> 0:38:16.000 just constantly grinding, like you know, you rarely ever have tappens, 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:18.400 which I think Trevor said that it just like doesn't 0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:19.520 happen out there. 0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:25.120 That I think that's the thing. Cameron, you play tournament 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:30.399 golf as a kid. To me, the most important thing 0:38:30.680 --> 0:38:34.319 as a tournament golfer is like stress management. It's one 0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:36.760 of the especially when you play a four day tournament 0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:40.879 like it, you know, when you can keep stressed off 0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:44.840 you and like stress generally comes in the form of 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:50.080 when you're trying to save pars and four to four 0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:53.120 to eight, four to ten foot putts really are like 0:38:54.200 --> 0:38:59.400 huge like areas of stress. Yeah, and Augusta, it just 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.640 feels like you always having those whether it's for par 0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:06.480 or bogie or worse, especially. 0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:07.959 When you're not hitting the ball, if you're not hitting 0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:11.120 it to the correct spots. Yes, it's just the stress, 0:39:11.280 --> 0:39:14.239 just the magnitude of the stress just amps up on 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:18.640 every single hole, because all of a sudden, if you 0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:20.719 miss into the wrong spot, whether it's a chip or 0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:24.200 a putt, getting down in two sometimes just feels like impossible, 0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:25.120 like you can't do it. 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:30.879 So you made three birdies, yeah, five, eight, and where else? 0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:37.879 Sixteen? Back right? Yeah, which your least favorite hole too. 0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:43.400 It's a great tournament hole and it's well positioned in 0:39:43.480 --> 0:39:46.279 the round. And I will say, like I know they 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:51.640 set that pin. It was like a Nicholas anniversary celebration anniversary. Yeah, 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:54.799 it's a great pin. I wish that they would sort 0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:58.200 of alternate, honestly, Like you've got to hit you've got 0:39:58.280 --> 0:39:59.919 to hit a good shot to the funnel pin also 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:04.480 obviously to catch the funnel correctly, but you've got to 0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:06.920 hit such a good shot to sort of hold that 0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:12.360 back right section on sixteen as well. And I hit 0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:14.040 a yeah, I hit a great shot on that whole. 0:40:14.400 --> 0:40:18.799 It's amazing when you heard Rory after talk about how 0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:23.120 in the back of his head, like he knew he 0:40:23.160 --> 0:40:25.920 had a birdy opportunity at fifteen, but sixteen he was 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:28.000 really worried about because it was gonna be hard to 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:30.360 that back right pin. He's like, because it wasn't in 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:33.120 the traditional spot. And I was, you know, I was, 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:36.440 I was pretty worried about about hitting a shot back there. 0:40:37.560 --> 0:40:41.400 It's it's a difficult one. You have to flight it correctly. 0:40:41.520 --> 0:40:44.960 The spin has to be right because it'll feed off 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:48.759 right and it'll going along is not great, and then 0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:52.200 obviously it'll funnel down to the left as well. But yeah, 0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:54.480 they've really stuck with the low left pin for a 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:56.560 long time. I feel like they used to mix it 0:40:56.640 --> 0:40:58.399 up a bit a bit more, and I do hope 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:00.920 they kind of bounce around on six team going forward, 0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:04.400 because I think that's actually a really interesting ben on Sunday. 0:41:05.000 --> 0:41:07.840 It would be would be fun. It creates, it changes 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:11.319 the dynamic of the finish where sixteen seventeen eighteen are 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:15.920 just like hold on exactly for dear life, and it's 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:19.040 kind of where then thirteen fourteen, fifteen you got to 0:41:19.160 --> 0:41:23.239 you gotta make hay. Yeah, totally all right, Cameron, thank 0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:25.359 you for coming on thank you for all all your 0:41:25.400 --> 0:41:28.520 work during the Master's Week. You know, you make all 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:34.640 of our our visual visual things we do pop. So 0:41:35.040 --> 0:41:37.400 thank you and I couldn't have been happier that you 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:39.080 got the chance to play. 0:41:39.680 --> 0:41:42.000 Well. Thanks. I think I think the whole team. It 0:41:42.120 --> 0:41:44.680 was a team effort Master's Week, but I was just 0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:47.640 just happy to be out there. There's not much better. 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:01.440 All right, Let's head over to Schneider. Big thanks to 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:04.040 Cameron for coming on the pod. It is like, literally 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:07.080 his least favorite thing to do is to appear on 0:42:07.160 --> 0:42:10.360 the podcast. He likes to be he likes to be 0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:12.640 the man behind the scenes. He does not like to 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:17.279 be out front. But he's always very well thought out. 0:42:17.400 --> 0:42:20.320 So big thanks to Cameron for coming on. Before we 0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:24.840 get over to Brian Schneider, let's talk about our friends 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:29.960 at Red Rooster. These gloves are amazing. We had this 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:34.320 for the Club TFE member gift. We did a we 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:37.600 did a fried egg glove and I couldn't believe the 0:42:37.719 --> 0:42:40.440 resounding feedback. I was getting texts left and right from 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:42.680 people being like, this is like the best glove? How 0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:48.000 can I buy more? So Redrooster goolf dot com is 0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:50.760 where you can check out all their full suite of products. 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:53.080 But one thing I would love to call out is 0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:57.719 that it's April. It's a rainy time of year. Why 0:42:57.760 --> 0:43:01.440 don't you check out the rain gloves. Red Rooster's rain 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:05.239 gloves are known for their sleek design and functionality. 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This is our I feel like 0:43:55.200 --> 0:43:59.440 we talk every year, but new segment that we're going 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:02.320 to do on this podcast. And this is a I 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:06.600 appreciated when I texted you your response because that's the 0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:08.759 whole point of it. This is a moving target. It 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:12.960 changes all the time. What are the three courses that 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.719 are rattling around your brain the most right now? And 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:18.800 obviously you texted me something along the lines of like 0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:22.680 my three at this point are going to be different 0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:24.680 than the three I tell you tomorrow. 0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:28.560 So yeah, it's hard to narrow it down to three. 0:44:28.640 --> 0:44:30.920 And it's uh yeah, it's definitely a moment in. 0:44:31.000 --> 0:44:36.719 Time, exactly exactly. Its completely changes based off the day 0:44:36.760 --> 0:44:39.759 of the week. I think with this, you know my 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:43.520 answer today would be different tomorrow. So I think that's 0:44:43.560 --> 0:44:45.920 what makes us fun is it doesn't mean it's just 0:44:46.040 --> 0:44:48.800 an end all, be all my three favorite It's just 0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:51.960 what I'm thinking about now. So let's get into it. 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:54.640 You're a busy man. I don't want to keep you around. 0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:57.080 I know you got you got a lot of stuff 0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:59.360 in the hopper and and we're going to be excited 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:02.839 to see some of your new stuff coming online this year. 0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:07.919 But what is one course that you are thinking about 0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:08.200 a lot? 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:13.920 So I'm I've been fortunate to see a few virgin 0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:16.000 pieces of land in the last week or so, so 0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:20.279 I've got a couple of a few topo maps laying 0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:25.480 around that I've been playing with, one of which you know, 0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:28.520 the site is kind of a series of big ridges 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:33.520 and valleys, and my mind immediately went to Seminole for that. 0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:37.000 So I've been thinking a lot about Seminole, which is 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:40.359 not something I do often. You know, Seminole is it's 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:44.279 a pretty wonderful place, and you know, it's a very 0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:47.200 very good golf course for people like you who play 0:45:47.239 --> 0:45:51.840 golf very well. It's less enjoyable for people like me 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:54.520 who don't play as well as you do. So I've 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:56.520 got a lot of respect for the design. It's a 0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:59.960 brilliant piece of work, the way that Ross took advantage 0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:02.360 of the features of that site. And it's full of 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:05.239 great golf holes, you know, but it's kind of like 0:46:05.280 --> 0:46:07.000 Pine Valley and that is full of great golf holes 0:46:07.040 --> 0:46:12.520 that are you know, almost unanimously you know, designed and 0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:15.040 especially maintained in a way that makes it a real challenge. 0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:19.960 So it's a place I respect. It's a wonderful place. 0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:23.120 It's not a place I love. But from a routing perspective, 0:46:24.640 --> 0:46:26.680 some of the challenges of this map I've been playing with. 0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:29.360 You know, my mind went to Seminole and how Ross, 0:46:30.360 --> 0:46:32.800 you know, took a venue and there's the ridge on 0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:35.360 the ocean and the ridge a few hundred yards inland, 0:46:35.960 --> 0:46:40.160 and how many of the holes play pretty gracefully up 0:46:40.200 --> 0:46:44.719 and down across those ridges. And some of the best 0:46:44.880 --> 0:46:46.520 holes on the property are the ones that really take 0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:50.720 advantage of the topography in unusual ways, like the fourth 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:55.680 and the sixth and the third. So seminals one that's 0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:57.959 been popping around my head just this morning and today 0:46:57.960 --> 0:46:59.160 as I'm playing around with this map. 0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:03.279 There's a lot of directions to go with Seminole. It 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:07.160 is obviously it's one of the more revered golf courses. 0:47:07.239 --> 0:47:10.759 I also think it's it's one of the most like 0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:13.919 it's a it's a great golf course, but I can't 0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:17.560 think it falls in the Chicago golf bucket of golf courses, 0:47:17.640 --> 0:47:21.680 where like people will say it's overrated, because it's not. 0:47:22.239 --> 0:47:27.479 I don't think like it. It's overwhelming, overwhelmingly like awe 0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:30.960 striking the first time you play it. But as you 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:36.640 you know, the property, for I would say sixty percent 0:47:36.880 --> 0:47:39.719 of the property is fairly mundane. I mean, you have, 0:47:40.160 --> 0:47:43.360 as you alluded to, those two big ridges and in 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:49.320 between it's it's kind of just relatively flat land and 0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:53.080 low yeah, and low right, it's not not exactly like. 0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:55.560 I don't think you would take that site and say 0:47:55.760 --> 0:48:00.239 it's extraordinary, but the golf that was produced on it is, 0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:05.920 and it is completely how those ridges are used are used, right. 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:10.680 I think I compared it to like a salad bowl 0:48:11.760 --> 0:48:14.640 years ago I wrote it's a big salad bowl, and 0:48:15.520 --> 0:48:19.600 the two ridges are the forks like your tongs that 0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:22.080 you put in the bowl just to prepare the salad, 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:24.239 and they're kind of on the edges. I think that's 0:48:24.320 --> 0:48:27.320 the description I use to give people kind of a 0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:30.359 more idea of what the site is like. So it's 0:48:30.440 --> 0:48:32.480 kind of like, you know, you have these high ridges 0:48:32.560 --> 0:48:36.360 on the outside that are like almost like the edges 0:48:36.400 --> 0:48:40.319 of the bowl. And it is amazing how how many 0:48:40.480 --> 0:48:43.919 holes interact with those ridges, right there are very there's 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:47.719 only what probably two or three that that don't have 0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:50.640 some connection to one of those ridges. 0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:51.319 Yep. 0:48:52.320 --> 0:48:54.880 Yeah, whether you're whether it's a tee you're teeing off 0:48:54.880 --> 0:48:57.359 from a pie down to the flats, whether you're playing 0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:00.440 through the flats up to a green halfway up, or 0:49:00.719 --> 0:49:01.720 you know the holes that play. 0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:05.399 On top that are the best ones and off the sides. Yeah, 0:49:05.400 --> 0:49:07.520 it's pretty remarkable. And you know also the way the 0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:10.360 holes change direction over and over. I mean it's a 0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:12.439 windy place. You're right in the ocean, so there's always 0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:15.839 a breeze. But I don't know that you're playing two 0:49:15.880 --> 0:49:17.960 holes in the same direction. There are more than two 0:49:18.000 --> 0:49:19.600 holes in the same direction at all out there, and 0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:21.000 you're changing direction constantly. 0:49:22.200 --> 0:49:25.920 Yeah, the ever present wind there, Like a calm day 0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:29.040 in South Florida in that location, with it right up 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:31.319 on the ocean, I mean, a calm day is still 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:33.879 going to be like a club and half too club wind. 0:49:35.880 --> 0:49:38.920 I think that's just it just makes it accentuates the 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:41.880 gulf so much. Right, if you put that place in 0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:46.480 a very unwindy place, let's just call Central Ohio, I 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:49.120 don't think it would have the same reverence as it 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:53.120 does because of the natural conditions and elements that it 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:56.800 has on a day in, day out. It's a reliable wind. 0:49:57.400 --> 0:50:01.600 And I think like that's the thing, like when when 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:04.120 you're able to create a course that moves around as 0:50:04.200 --> 0:50:06.960 much as it does, it just is like a it's 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:11.279 a constant pressure, right. I always think that, like great 0:50:11.360 --> 0:50:14.399 golfers have the ability to play these like stress free 0:50:14.520 --> 0:50:20.080 rounds and great architecture has a way of compiling stress. 0:50:20.400 --> 0:50:22.520 And if you think about yourself as a human being 0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:26.520 like stress, eventually you can only take on so much 0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:30.160 stress before you crack. And I think that's what kind 0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:31.960 of a round of golf does. And I don't know 0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:37.239 if there's a course that's better at accumulating stress on 0:50:37.480 --> 0:50:41.000 you than seminole. I think like ones that I would 0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:44.239 think of in a similar vein like mirrorfield, would be 0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:48.080 one that accumulates stress like you just like nothing is 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:51.960 you don't look at anything and think that's overly hard. 0:50:52.280 --> 0:50:54.399 There are a few shots, like I mean, if you're 0:50:54.400 --> 0:50:57.759 playing seventeen and the winds coming off the ocean, that 0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:01.520 could be overly hard. Like for the most part, none 0:51:01.520 --> 0:51:04.920 of the shots feel overly hard, but the accumulation of 0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:08.040 them over the course of eighteen holes, you are going 0:51:08.120 --> 0:51:09.960 to make a mistake and then you are going to 0:51:10.000 --> 0:51:13.320 get in a really difficult position. I would say, you know, 0:51:13.400 --> 0:51:17.160 one of the tough things as an architect, having those 0:51:17.280 --> 0:51:21.080 two ridges, does that they're big ridges? Does that make 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:24.200 it difficult because it can maybe make it feel monotonous. 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:27.400 Some of the holes blend together a bit, you know, 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:30.560 the ones that are are playing east west. You know, 0:51:30.640 --> 0:51:34.240 there are some of those holes that follow a similar pattern. Definitely, 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:39.240 it's hard to distinguish two from eleven. For instance, Mierfield 0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:40.560 has a little bit of that too, But. 0:51:43.320 --> 0:51:44.680 You know, it's the The. 0:51:46.680 --> 0:51:48.960 Mention of Chicago Golf Club is interesting because you look 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:51.040 at both of those sites and just you know, if 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:55.200 you're analyzing the architecture, it's like, man, those guys got 0:51:55.239 --> 0:51:57.400 the most out of those two sites. You know, to 0:51:57.440 --> 0:51:59.080 your point, you wouldn't necessarily look at either one of 0:51:59.120 --> 0:52:01.920 those sites. Are Seminal is a cool site. I mean, 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:03.799 you're on the ocean, you've got sand dunes, but there's 0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:07.799 a bunch of that property that was swamp Essentially, It's like, wow, 0:52:07.840 --> 0:52:10.120 he really did the best he could with that site. 0:52:10.200 --> 0:52:14.279 Chicago's that way certainly. You know, it reminds me a 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:18.600 lot of Pinehurst too. And you know, the greens at 0:52:18.640 --> 0:52:21.800 both of those places tend to be elevated and crowny 0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:23.560 and when they're firm and in the wind. You know, 0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:27.840 it's nothing new that wind and firm greens are the 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:30.880 things that make golf really hard for good players. But 0:52:31.040 --> 0:52:33.040 I think you know, as long as players hit it now, 0:52:33.080 --> 0:52:35.120 as far as players hit it, those two things are 0:52:35.160 --> 0:52:38.200 more important than ever. And you know, there aren't many 0:52:38.239 --> 0:52:40.360 days you go to seminole where the greens aren't firm 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:43.280 and it's not blowing, so you know, it is always 0:52:43.320 --> 0:52:44.360 a test for good players. 0:52:45.800 --> 0:52:48.279 What amazes me I was talking to somebody about this 0:52:48.440 --> 0:52:54.279 other day, how these guys that are members there, these 0:52:54.400 --> 0:52:57.680 older guys, like that's the course they play all the time, 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:01.520 but they figure out how to get around it. Like 0:53:01.560 --> 0:53:04.319 I don't understand how Like if I played there every day, 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:06.600 it would just kick my ass. Eventually I think I 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:10.879 just give up. But these guys play there all the time, 0:53:10.960 --> 0:53:13.759 and it's like these these guys that are seventy years old, 0:53:13.880 --> 0:53:17.440 like scratch out seventy fours. I think there is like 0:53:17.680 --> 0:53:20.880 an aspect of that golf course where the vast majority 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:24.000 of people don't play it enough to really you know, 0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:27.000 the vast majority of people will never play it, but 0:53:27.280 --> 0:53:29.719 like you know, the people that do play it one 0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:33.239 or once or twice every five years, like you know, rare. 0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:36.520 Like I do think that golf course similar to Pine 0:53:36.560 --> 0:53:39.759 or so number two. It if you know where to 0:53:39.880 --> 0:53:42.759 manage your misses, you can start to get around it 0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:45.880 a little bit more like they've the first couple of times, 0:53:45.920 --> 0:53:49.360 you just have no chance. You're gonna rip balls off greens. 0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:51.840 You're gonna miss long and in places that you just 0:53:51.960 --> 0:53:54.439 can't miss, even though you're twenty feet from the hole, 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:57.200 Like you know that. I think there is like an 0:53:57.320 --> 0:54:01.080 aspect of that golf course mismanagement is like the number 0:54:01.160 --> 0:54:02.719 one thing you have to do because you're going to 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:04.560 miss out there with the wind and from. 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:06.279 Yeah, a lot of the best courses of that way. 0:54:06.280 --> 0:54:09.040 I mean Pine Valley certainly is that way. You know, 0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:11.320 the first time around, you're just in awe of everything 0:54:11.360 --> 0:54:13.320 and you feel like you can't miss anywhere, And the 0:54:13.400 --> 0:54:15.239 more you get to know it, you realize, wow, there's 0:54:15.440 --> 0:54:17.759 there's some space out here if you can control your ball. 0:54:19.320 --> 0:54:21.920 You know where to hedge. Lido is very much that 0:54:22.000 --> 0:54:23.920 way too. You know, the first visitors to let O 0:54:23.920 --> 0:54:25.840 where it's like, wow, that's a really hard golf course. 0:54:26.520 --> 0:54:28.359 After you've played it a bit, you start to learn. 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:30.400 But yeah, because you missed it over there when the 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:33.080 pin's there, you had no chance, But you have seventy 0:54:33.120 --> 0:54:34.919 yards of room in that direction to make your second 0:54:34.960 --> 0:54:35.880 shot that much easier. 0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:41.200 The Leado. That's not uncommon among some really good golf 0:54:41.239 --> 0:54:42.680 courses that people think are really hard. 0:54:43.560 --> 0:54:48.359 The Leado is such an interesting golf course. I love 0:54:48.480 --> 0:54:52.040 that it is now like that resort is going to 0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:56.200 play it. It's you know, obviously it's like a limited 0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:59.560 amount of resort play at sand Valley a day on 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:03.080 the lead, you know. I love that it's like coming 0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:07.399 clear that like the resort guests don't like the lead 0:55:07.440 --> 0:55:12.200 out and the like. It's like playing it one time. 0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:13.080 It's really hard. 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:14.560 It's like the old course. 0:55:14.600 --> 0:55:16.640 I mean to me, it's it's more like the Old 0:55:16.719 --> 0:55:19.640 Course than any course I've played, because it's super vague 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:22.120 off the te's. You know, you go to Saint Andrews 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:24.080 and if you've never walked the golf course before, you're 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:25.560 just you know, for the next four hours, you're just 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:28.400 gonna hit it with your caddy points, and Liedo's got 0:55:28.400 --> 0:55:28.800 a lot of that. 0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:31.640 It's like, just hit it there, and there's nothing. 0:55:31.480 --> 0:55:33.719 Terribly fun about doing that until you get to learn 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:35.360 what's on the other side of that ridge that you 0:55:35.400 --> 0:55:38.400 can't see over, what the green looks like. And the 0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:40.480 more you get to know it yourself, the more engaging 0:55:40.520 --> 0:55:42.759 it gets, but the first time around it's you know, 0:55:42.960 --> 0:55:46.600 I remember going to Lido shortly after they opened and 0:55:46.680 --> 0:55:48.239 went in the pro shop and was talking to the 0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:50.840 guys in there, and you know, like, man, everybody loves it. 0:55:50.880 --> 0:55:53.040 People are just raving about it. And I was like, 0:55:54.000 --> 0:55:55.960 I think most of those people are lying, you know. 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:57.880 They they've been told that this is going to be 0:55:57.960 --> 0:56:00.680 some great things, so they've feel compelled to to rave 0:56:00.719 --> 0:56:03.359 about how great it is. But I don't think most 0:56:03.400 --> 0:56:05.759 people the first time around haven't any idea what they're doing, 0:56:06.000 --> 0:56:08.319 and certainly don't appreciate all the subtlety. And that's very 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:10.560 much the case of the Old Course. I feel bad 0:56:10.600 --> 0:56:12.200 for people that go to St Andrews or go to 0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:17.080 Scotland and you know, play seven the top one hundred 0:56:17.120 --> 0:56:19.080 courses in a week and you know, fly through St 0:56:19.080 --> 0:56:22.800 Andrews play the Old Course, because you can't possibly enjoy 0:56:22.880 --> 0:56:25.319 and appreciate it the way you could if we all 0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:26.399 had the luxury to play there. 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:32.200 Often, I feel like the Leado's it's such a local 0:56:32.360 --> 0:56:36.879 knowledge place. It is a golf course that the first 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:39.480 time around you're just like hitting it to places, as 0:56:39.520 --> 0:56:41.520 you said, very vague off the tea great way to 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:46.359 describe it. But then if you start to understand where 0:56:46.480 --> 0:56:50.080 you're trying to get to with different whole locations, you 0:56:50.160 --> 0:56:54.239 can effectively, you know, you can effectively create situations where 0:56:54.280 --> 0:56:57.520 you hit regularly into gathering pins. I always think of 0:56:57.640 --> 0:57:01.440 Tom's quote. I think that this was in the third 0:57:01.560 --> 0:57:04.360 podcast I ever did with them. It was about stream 0:57:04.440 --> 0:57:06.840 song Blue. I asked, I think the question was like, 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:08.960 what what do you wish people could know about this 0:57:09.040 --> 0:57:12.000 golf course? He said, I wish there were signs on 0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:15.040 the golf course that I could put on contours that 0:57:15.600 --> 0:57:17.400 when you're on the wrong side of a contour it 0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:20.560 says you have hit it in the wrong spot, because 0:57:20.600 --> 0:57:23.800 like every contour has a helping side and a hurting side. 0:57:24.840 --> 0:57:27.440 But like at the Lido, it's a great example of 0:57:27.600 --> 0:57:31.360 if you get to a certain position off this vague 0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:33.960 t shot, if you know, it's kind of like an 0:57:34.040 --> 0:57:37.760 open ended question, if you can get off the blocks 0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:40.360 and have like a great like I find writing to 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:42.800 be like this, if you can get if I could 0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:45.320 get out of the blocks with a great opening paragraph, 0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:49.440 which is always my kryptonite as as an author, is 0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:51.880 that I just can't get started but if you get 0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:55.160 off the blocks, then everything falls into place right. And 0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:57.520 the lido's so similar to this, Like if you can 0:57:57.560 --> 0:57:59.120 get it into the right spot, if you know where 0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:01.640 the whole location is is, you get into the right spot, 0:58:01.760 --> 0:58:04.680 all of a sudden, it becomes like a very friendly 0:58:04.760 --> 0:58:08.520 golf course. But if you're in the wrong spot, it 0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:11.360 is a very challenging golf course. And I do think 0:58:11.440 --> 0:58:14.040 like the value of a great, great caddy out there 0:58:14.360 --> 0:58:17.400 is so yea, so huge. I had. I had a 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:20.200 caddy this summer out there that like he told me, 0:58:20.400 --> 0:58:23.560 like I generally feel like I have like a pretty 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:25.880 He was like, he told me to hit it like 0:58:26.040 --> 0:58:28.600 thirty yards short of a green and I was like really, 0:58:29.000 --> 0:58:31.600 and he was like thirty yards short, thirty yards left 0:58:31.680 --> 0:58:36.200 and I think it was on seven h and I 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:39.280 was like, okay, I'm gonna do it, and it fed 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:41.840 right to the hole, and you know, like then like 0:58:41.960 --> 0:58:44.400 from that moment on, I was listening, you just get 0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:45.960 into good spots and then all of a sudden you 0:58:46.000 --> 0:58:48.040 can you can take advantage of the cop Yeah, that. 0:58:48.080 --> 0:58:50.800 Has some really good caddies there, But you're right, it's 0:58:50.840 --> 0:58:52.680 one thing to get over the vagueness of the t 0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:54.960 shots like on twos, like trust me, there's a bunch 0:58:55.000 --> 0:58:56.600 of space on the other side of that ridge, just 0:58:56.880 --> 0:58:59.400 hit it over there. But the greens are the thing 0:58:59.520 --> 0:59:01.880 like you and that takes more time to get to 0:59:01.960 --> 0:59:03.560 know the greens. But it's like, oh the pins back 0:59:03.640 --> 0:59:05.440 left today, I can't go anywhere near the I've got 0:59:05.520 --> 0:59:07.880 to miss here and better off being twenty yards short 0:59:07.920 --> 0:59:10.200 and left than anywhere right of center. 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:14.200 Yeah, but that's what makes Gulf fun too. I mean 0:59:14.600 --> 0:59:17.440 as a member, you know, that's what you want in 0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:18.200 a golf courses. 0:59:19.080 --> 0:59:21.560 You know, a the variability from day to day that 0:59:21.640 --> 0:59:24.800 those sorts of that, that sort of architecture gives you. 0:59:26.080 --> 0:59:28.320 But also just taking time to figure out a golf 0:59:28.360 --> 0:59:31.160 course and hopefully you don't know the best way to 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:32.640 play a whole the first time you play it, and 0:59:32.640 --> 0:59:34.400 hopefully the best way to play a whole changes from 0:59:34.480 --> 0:59:37.440 day to day. I don't know that Seminole's quite that way. 0:59:37.680 --> 0:59:40.720 I think Seminole is a bit more prescriptive, just like 0:59:40.880 --> 0:59:43.320 you know, those greens are just hard, and if you 0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:46.320 know there's there's a preferred angle where you're playing down. 0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:47.800 The link to some of those greens, and if you 0:59:47.880 --> 0:59:51.280 miss that ten yards right or left, playing across the 0:59:51.320 --> 0:59:52.880 green a little bit is a much harder shot. 0:59:54.320 --> 0:59:56.000 This is kind of what I was getting at with 0:59:56.120 --> 1:00:01.320 the big ridge topography. Does that just generally lend itself 1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:08.560 to prescriptive golf more so than the smaller, like more 1:00:08.720 --> 1:00:11.040 human size contoury. 1:00:11.080 --> 1:00:14.760 Probably, you know. I I have learned about my own 1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:17.920 taste that I kind of like flat golf. You know, 1:00:18.040 --> 1:00:21.160 to me, the best you know, not necessarily tea shots, 1:00:21.160 --> 1:00:23.000 but the best approach shots to me are the ones 1:00:23.040 --> 1:00:26.760 that are you know, level or downhill a little bit, 1:00:27.480 --> 1:00:29.080 because then I can play short of the green and 1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:31.280 let it run on and I can watch that. I 1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:34.000 don't really like playing twenty or thirty feet up to 1:00:34.040 --> 1:00:35.959 a green. I don't enjoy that shot that much because 1:00:35.960 --> 1:00:37.439 you can't see what the ball does when it lands. 1:00:37.600 --> 1:00:38.320 You're and you're. 1:00:38.240 --> 1:00:40.840 Limited in the shots you can play. You know, if 1:00:40.880 --> 1:00:42.160 you're relatively flat, like it's St. 1:00:42.200 --> 1:00:44.480 Andrew's or Hollywood's one of my favorite places to play, 1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:46.560 a lot of those shots are just kind of ground 1:00:46.640 --> 1:00:48.840 level and you can hit any shot you want. So yeah, 1:00:48.880 --> 1:00:50.360 I think you do have a little more freedom to 1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:53.000 play a variety of shots on flatter ground. When you 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:56.400 get into hilly ground, the land is telling you more 1:00:56.480 --> 1:00:57.640 what kind of shots you want to hit. 1:00:59.280 --> 1:01:02.760 All right, let's get to number two. What's uh, what's 1:01:02.840 --> 1:01:04.760 your second course that you're thinking a lot of? 1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:07.960 So one of the other topo maps that's laying in 1:01:08.040 --> 1:01:11.040 front of me reminds me of a few of my 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:13.520 favorite places, and I'm gonna lump. I'm gonna cheat and 1:01:13.640 --> 1:01:15.080 lump three places together. 1:01:15.880 --> 1:01:18.000 I get I get accused of doing this all the 1:01:18.120 --> 1:01:22.320 time on the pod because you like to talk. Well, 1:01:22.520 --> 1:01:26.640 I just like to jam stuff together so that you know. 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:29.960 I do this for our five things about majors. This 1:01:30.080 --> 1:01:32.360 is where I get accused of having like eight things 1:01:32.440 --> 1:01:33.439 that I make into five. 1:01:33.960 --> 1:01:35.400 It's like the one bite pizza review. 1:01:36.240 --> 1:01:39.760 I appreciate you you doing this. I appreciate you turning 1:01:39.800 --> 1:01:40.600 the tables on me. 1:01:40.680 --> 1:01:40.840 Here. 1:01:43.720 --> 1:01:48.240 The three I'll say are Garden City and Walton heath 1:01:48.480 --> 1:01:51.320 Old and wood all Spot, which to me are all 1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:57.400 very closely related cousins. I get all three built on 1:01:57.520 --> 1:02:00.880 relatively flat ground. You know, there aren't big hills at 1:02:00.880 --> 1:02:04.760 any of those places, and the architecture embraces that. 1:02:05.400 --> 1:02:06.120 At those places. 1:02:06.160 --> 1:02:08.400 You know that so many of the greens at all 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:11.160 three of those places are just laying on the ground, 1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:14.439 you know, subtle tilts left right, right to left away 1:02:14.440 --> 1:02:19.040 from you in some cases, and the features aren't you know, 1:02:19.080 --> 1:02:21.000 there's there's some stuff built up above ground, but a 1:02:21.040 --> 1:02:23.320 lot of the bunkers are just like sunken down in 1:02:23.400 --> 1:02:26.960 the ground. And this, this site that I'm playing with 1:02:27.080 --> 1:02:29.280 this map, reminds me so much of that that there's 1:02:29.400 --> 1:02:31.160 just this beautiful, gentle movement. 1:02:31.440 --> 1:02:33.960 You know, it's like plus or minus seven or eight feet. 1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:40.000 Sandy, gravelly soils that drain really well, and I think 1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:42.880 it would lend itself really well to that style of architecture. 1:02:44.320 --> 1:02:46.840 So as I'm you know, playing with the map and 1:02:46.920 --> 1:02:49.919 working on these routings, I'm finding places, you know, green 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:53.240 sites that are just quiet on the ground, not necessarily 1:02:53.360 --> 1:02:56.400 on a high, necessarily in a pocket, but just kind 1:02:56.400 --> 1:02:59.160 of an open space on the ground and tilting and 1:02:59.200 --> 1:03:07.360 an inconmuniate direct I think that's really cool old school architecture. 1:03:07.360 --> 1:03:09.640 And you know, Garden City. Unfortunate to work at Garden 1:03:09.720 --> 1:03:11.120 City and have spent a lot of time there over 1:03:11.160 --> 1:03:15.160 the years, and you know, a couple of years ago 1:03:15.240 --> 1:03:17.000 they were looking at adding a couple of back teas, 1:03:17.080 --> 1:03:20.280 and I'm thinking to myself, you know, who are these four? 1:03:20.360 --> 1:03:22.160 And I asked, what was you know, every spring they 1:03:22.240 --> 1:03:26.760 host the Travis you know, the Great Amateur event, and 1:03:26.840 --> 1:03:28.160 I was like, what was you know, what did the 1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:32.400 Metalist shoot last year? And I think the best score 1:03:32.480 --> 1:03:35.840 was like a seventy or seventy one, which is amazing 1:03:35.880 --> 1:03:38.200 to me because that golf course, now, we've spent a 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:42.000 lot of time over the past ten years really restoring 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:45.800 it to the photographs in nineteen thirty six that was 1:03:45.840 --> 1:03:48.000 in the last hosted an amateur. That was their last 1:03:48.040 --> 1:03:51.360 major event. So the golf course now, with the exception 1:03:51.440 --> 1:03:53.600 of a few back teas and a few forward tees, 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:56.640 it's almost identical to the golf course they played in 1:03:56.680 --> 1:04:00.000 nineteen thirty six. You have the best amateurs in the country, 1:04:00.160 --> 1:04:03.959 in the world or hovering around power or over power, 1:04:05.000 --> 1:04:07.000 and that the architecture is timeless. 1:04:07.160 --> 1:04:07.280 You know. 1:04:07.560 --> 1:04:09.560 I love that sort of architecture. And the golf course 1:04:09.640 --> 1:04:12.280 is playing firmer than it has in a long time. 1:04:12.320 --> 1:04:15.919 They're superintendent Mike mcleeby has just been pounding saying into 1:04:15.960 --> 1:04:17.600 the greens and the approaches and you can hit the 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:20.840 shots you want to hit. But that architecture is really 1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:23.440 simple but still holds up really well to the best 1:04:23.480 --> 1:04:24.200 players in the game. 1:04:25.720 --> 1:04:29.280 I think that those greens are just so hard to 1:04:29.440 --> 1:04:37.080 hit into you you always I feel like you generally 1:04:37.240 --> 1:04:39.800 know where to land shots, Like you know, when you're 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:43.120 that golf course, with the way it's set up distance wise, 1:04:43.200 --> 1:04:46.240 you get a lot of wedges in your hands, and 1:04:46.320 --> 1:04:48.320 I think like the best thing you can do to 1:04:48.440 --> 1:04:53.040 combat wedges is greens that run away, like variety, varying 1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:56.480 the greens because and this is always why I've taken 1:04:56.480 --> 1:05:00.680 away from Garden City is like Garden City, the more 1:05:00.760 --> 1:05:04.640 you play it, the more worried about where you land wedges. 1:05:05.520 --> 1:05:08.640 It becomes so much of a well, this is one hundred, 1:05:09.160 --> 1:05:11.640 this green tilts away. I'm not sure how much it 1:05:11.720 --> 1:05:14.919 tilts away. Do I need to land this ninety four? 1:05:15.640 --> 1:05:17.960 You start to think you're just it gets you thinking 1:05:18.040 --> 1:05:22.160 because you're not used to it. You know, every hole 1:05:22.320 --> 1:05:24.600 feels like you need to land it a different number, 1:05:24.760 --> 1:05:27.360 and you get frustrated because like you'll hit a wedge 1:05:27.360 --> 1:05:29.080 and you're like, oh, it's perfect, and then you have 1:05:29.160 --> 1:05:31.320 to off the back of the green because it pitches 1:05:31.360 --> 1:05:34.280 away like it just gets a bad bounce or it 1:05:34.400 --> 1:05:37.520 takes a big first hot because you get that unpredictability 1:05:38.760 --> 1:05:41.040 you know, that comes with just such a wide variety 1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:46.160 of greens like that. It's just magical how those greens 1:05:46.200 --> 1:05:48.520 sit on the ground too. I think that that's one 1:05:48.560 --> 1:05:50.800 of the other things, is like it's so hard to 1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:53.880 decipher from the fairway what's going on at the green 1:05:53.920 --> 1:05:55.120 and where you want to land it. 1:05:56.200 --> 1:05:58.560 And it's it's about more than just the number two. 1:05:58.640 --> 1:06:00.680 It's about yes, your tey. You know. 1:06:00.760 --> 1:06:03.040 It's like, Okay, I've decided now I want to land 1:06:03.080 --> 1:06:06.000 this ten yard short. But am I taking a full 1:06:06.040 --> 1:06:07.960 swing and trying to land it as soft as I can? 1:06:08.080 --> 1:06:09.040 Or am I knocking this down? 1:06:09.160 --> 1:06:09.800 So it's about. 1:06:09.640 --> 1:06:12.240 Trajectory as well as where you want to land it, which, 1:06:12.560 --> 1:06:14.959 you know, the more you're thinking about what kind of shot, 1:06:15.040 --> 1:06:17.560 no how far you want to hit it, the more 1:06:17.600 --> 1:06:20.440 compelling golf gets, and you're thinking about what happens after 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:22.520 the you know, once the ball lands, what's it going 1:06:22.600 --> 1:06:22.720 to do? 1:06:24.560 --> 1:06:27.320 Yeah, I think that's really fascinating it. You know, another 1:06:27.400 --> 1:06:27.880 thing we're. 1:06:27.800 --> 1:06:29.640 Doing there over the past couple of years we've been 1:06:29.920 --> 1:06:32.040 you know, they've got these sand dams, which are kind 1:06:32.080 --> 1:06:34.720 of a result of top dressing and you know, buzzing 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:36.920 around with the sand pro working the sand into the 1:06:36.960 --> 1:06:39.640 green after you've verified it leaves a little ring around 1:06:39.640 --> 1:06:41.920 the green and it's it's subtle the first year and 1:06:42.000 --> 1:06:45.040 slowly builds every year you do that. So we're removing 1:06:45.080 --> 1:06:47.520 these sand dams around the greens, which you know now 1:06:47.600 --> 1:06:50.560 they're really nondescripted. But at the same time, we're adding 1:06:50.840 --> 1:06:53.640 short grass around some of the greens. So you know, 1:06:53.800 --> 1:06:56.000 they used to have you know, they were never terribly 1:06:56.040 --> 1:06:58.640 well defined, but some of them had the definition of 1:06:59.320 --> 1:07:01.640 rough leading in to them and around the backs, and 1:07:01.720 --> 1:07:03.440 we're wiping that out in a lot of places and 1:07:03.600 --> 1:07:05.520 just adding short grass. So now the greens you're just 1:07:05.640 --> 1:07:08.440 floating in space and a sea of short grass. So 1:07:08.480 --> 1:07:11.280 I think it's getting even harder to get your bearings 1:07:11.360 --> 1:07:13.640 and understand where just how far away is that it 1:07:13.680 --> 1:07:16.440 feels uncomfortable because you know, the green is just literally 1:07:16.560 --> 1:07:17.680 floating in short grass. 1:07:18.800 --> 1:07:19.520 It's a cool look. 1:07:20.000 --> 1:07:22.840 It's also you get the number right, you get the 1:07:22.840 --> 1:07:25.680 one hundred yards, but if you play a course, it's 1:07:25.720 --> 1:07:27.800 one of those courses where you might play it more, 1:07:27.800 --> 1:07:30.160 it might get more frustrating because like you're thinking one 1:07:30.240 --> 1:07:32.600 hundred yards, like, well, is that one hundred yards with 1:07:32.640 --> 1:07:35.560 the green with the whole twelve paces on or sixteen 1:07:35.600 --> 1:07:38.600 paces on? And that makes a huge difference because the 1:07:38.680 --> 1:07:40.280 front part of the green might be different than the 1:07:40.360 --> 1:07:41.520 back part of the green, you know. 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:45.920 Yep, yeah, then again, you know the greenkeeper has done 1:07:45.920 --> 1:07:47.880 a great job affirming up the approaches now so you 1:07:48.040 --> 1:07:50.160 can hit all those shots and it's like that's the 1:07:50.240 --> 1:07:52.360 opposite of seminal where it's like you can hit any 1:07:52.400 --> 1:07:55.480 shot you want and none of them are easy. You know, 1:07:55.560 --> 1:07:57.360 you've got to have touch, and you've got to have 1:07:57.480 --> 1:08:01.919 judgment and you've got to execute. Yeah, it's not telling 1:08:02.000 --> 1:08:03.200 you what to do at all. It gives you a 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:05.160 lot of freedom to play whatever shot works best for you, 1:08:05.280 --> 1:08:06.840 which to me is the best kind of golf. 1:08:08.880 --> 1:08:11.840 Were you did you work on the Woodhall SPA project 1:08:11.960 --> 1:08:12.360 with Tom? 1:08:12.840 --> 1:08:13.160 I did. 1:08:13.480 --> 1:08:16.160 Yeah, that's been one of the golf courses that I 1:08:16.360 --> 1:08:20.120 haven't seen this long, fascinated me the most and been 1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:24.760 high up on on on list of courses that I 1:08:25.000 --> 1:08:30.439 really want to see on any given year. What there's 1:08:30.920 --> 1:08:33.719 you know, you lumped in with Garden City. There's also 1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:36.559 seems like there's a lot of like big scale moments 1:08:36.600 --> 1:08:39.360 out there, like with bunkers impactful. 1:08:39.720 --> 1:08:41.880 You know, you'll appreciate it because you're a drone guy 1:08:41.920 --> 1:08:44.280 and you you like that perspective being up and you 1:08:44.320 --> 1:08:45.080 can see more. 1:08:46.720 --> 1:08:47.560 And Garrett would love it. 1:08:49.320 --> 1:08:51.599 But when you're on the ground, it's a relatively flat place, 1:08:51.720 --> 1:08:53.840 so so some of those features that look great from 1:08:53.880 --> 1:08:56.640 ten feet in the air, you're not really seeing the 1:08:56.800 --> 1:08:59.439 full depth of them, you know. And that wood all 1:08:59.439 --> 1:09:01.560 spots fame for the par threes and the fifth is 1:09:01.600 --> 1:09:04.240 probably the boldest of the bunch, but it's the skinny 1:09:04.280 --> 1:09:06.519 little green that's surrounded by bunkers all around, and they 1:09:06.600 --> 1:09:09.439 must be i don't know, ten twelve feet deep with 1:09:09.840 --> 1:09:13.639 straight vertical faces. But the tea's about the same level 1:09:13.680 --> 1:09:15.320 as the green are just slightly above, so you're not 1:09:15.479 --> 1:09:17.240 seeing the floors of the bunkers at all from the 1:09:17.320 --> 1:09:20.080 tee and it's not until you're up by the green 1:09:20.160 --> 1:09:22.120 and probably in one of those markers that you appreciate 1:09:22.200 --> 1:09:25.439 how deep they are. There are a few moments around 1:09:25.439 --> 1:09:27.599 the golf course where Yeah, there are things that are 1:09:27.680 --> 1:09:29.800 kind of in your face. And it's one of the 1:09:29.920 --> 1:09:32.160 coolest looking golf courses in the world. I mean, it's 1:09:32.240 --> 1:09:35.120 just a very the texture is great, and the natives 1:09:35.200 --> 1:09:37.920 and the sand and the green turf and the trees, 1:09:38.000 --> 1:09:42.080 and it's really a beautiful, kind of rugged, masculine looking 1:09:42.120 --> 1:09:42.599 golf course. 1:09:42.720 --> 1:09:44.360 It's really a cool looking golf course. 1:09:45.920 --> 1:09:50.680 Does England have the most aesthetically pleasing golf not on 1:09:50.760 --> 1:09:51.160 the Ocean? 1:09:51.600 --> 1:09:53.800 Yeah, there's a lot of beautiful golf in England, I mean, 1:09:54.439 --> 1:09:56.240 and probably the most dwell. 1:09:56.280 --> 1:09:57.120 America is tough to be. 1:09:57.200 --> 1:09:58.639 Just because it's so big and we have so many 1:09:58.680 --> 1:10:01.360 golf courses as a destination, you know, as a as 1:10:01.400 --> 1:10:05.160 a overseas destination for American golfers, England has such a 1:10:05.200 --> 1:10:12.479 wide variety of you know, great parkland, heathland and links. Yeah, 1:10:12.560 --> 1:10:15.240 a lot of beautiful golf courses in England, the stuff around. Yeah, 1:10:15.240 --> 1:10:18.519 if you catch the the heathling courses around London the 1:10:18.600 --> 1:10:22.439 right time of the year when the heather's in bloom, yeah, 1:10:22.520 --> 1:10:25.880 that's that's a gorgeous style of golf that you don't 1:10:25.880 --> 1:10:27.519 really get to experience anywhere but England. 1:10:29.080 --> 1:10:31.719 All Right, what's what's your third course that you've been. 1:10:31.680 --> 1:10:32.120 Thinking of. 1:10:34.160 --> 1:10:34.639 Or fifth? 1:10:37.439 --> 1:10:38.439 Yeah, who's counting? 1:10:41.280 --> 1:10:43.720 I made this three. I made this three because I 1:10:43.840 --> 1:10:46.200 thought three was really hard to pick. 1:10:46.960 --> 1:10:50.599 Three is sorry, and I cheated. I'm not taking any back. 1:10:51.360 --> 1:10:52.320 I'm not taking any back. 1:10:53.960 --> 1:10:55.479 The other one is just a project I'm kind of 1:10:55.479 --> 1:10:57.479 in the middle of, so I'm thinking of it a 1:10:57.560 --> 1:11:00.120 fair bit right now. And that's at a place that 1:11:00.200 --> 1:11:03.639 nobody knows of in Connecticut called Silver Spring Country Club 1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:09.160 in Ridgefield, which you know isn't far from Greenwich or Westchester, 1:11:09.360 --> 1:11:13.360 but just far enough, you know, Like Ridgefield's a beautiful 1:11:13.400 --> 1:11:17.000 little town, and the golf course sits in a space 1:11:17.120 --> 1:11:21.040 that's largely surrounded by untouched forest and a really peaceful place, 1:11:21.120 --> 1:11:23.559 a great membership, a lot of really wonderful people there, 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:26.280 and a really pleasant golf course and a nice piece 1:11:26.320 --> 1:11:31.439 of land. I don't really love touting my own work 1:11:31.479 --> 1:11:34.720 this way, but it's yeah, you asked the question. So 1:11:35.040 --> 1:11:37.040 you know, it's a project that we did nine holes 1:11:37.400 --> 1:11:39.479 this year, the back nine. Well we'll get into the 1:11:39.520 --> 1:11:44.479 front nine this coming fall. You know, it's a nice routing, 1:11:44.520 --> 1:11:47.439 so I'm not really changing that too much, but you know, greens, 1:11:47.479 --> 1:11:49.840 bunker's teas have been tinkered with a lot over the years, 1:11:49.880 --> 1:11:52.840 and we're we're tinkering a lot more and kind of 1:11:52.920 --> 1:11:54.720 changing the style of the golf course. Will keep in 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:58.760 the bulk of the routing intact. But it's been a 1:11:58.840 --> 1:12:02.000 really fun project, I think, trying to give it its 1:12:02.040 --> 1:12:06.280 own style and create some some funky features that freak 1:12:06.320 --> 1:12:07.840 people out a little bit when we first built them, 1:12:07.880 --> 1:12:08.840 but I think are going to be a lot of 1:12:08.880 --> 1:12:13.200 fun to discover and play over time. That's been a 1:12:13.240 --> 1:12:15.960 really fun project and something I've got to wrap up 1:12:15.960 --> 1:12:17.400 a little bit this spring and then get back to 1:12:17.439 --> 1:12:18.639 in the fall for nine more holes. 1:12:19.240 --> 1:12:25.280 What's it like, you know, changing completely changing, you know, 1:12:25.479 --> 1:12:29.280 like the golf course. Everybody's joined there because they seemingly 1:12:29.439 --> 1:12:31.960 like the golf course. So you know, as you said 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:38.519 mege a funky, provocative and really like, you know, not 1:12:38.680 --> 1:12:43.120 changing the routing, but changing the te's, greens, fairways, bunkers. 1:12:44.160 --> 1:12:46.600 That's going to completely change the golf course. What's it 1:12:47.240 --> 1:12:52.840 What's it like overhauling a place? I imagine that when 1:12:52.920 --> 1:12:58.040 you open, you aren't going to have one unanimous approval 1:12:58.320 --> 1:13:00.800 from the club, like you know, from from the members 1:13:00.840 --> 1:13:05.160 standpoint because golfers hate change more than anything in the world, 1:13:05.360 --> 1:13:09.200 you know, But what what do you kind of like 1:13:09.720 --> 1:13:15.240 think about while you're changing it and balancing that idea 1:13:15.280 --> 1:13:17.680 of like, the membership joined this other place that I'm 1:13:17.760 --> 1:13:18.639 completely overalling. 1:13:19.760 --> 1:13:22.360 It's a really good point and a point I make often. 1:13:22.439 --> 1:13:25.360 But yeah, like you said, the members joined that place 1:13:25.400 --> 1:13:27.679 for a reason, presumably because they really like the golf course, 1:13:27.760 --> 1:13:30.840 and getting them to buy into something completely new isn't 1:13:30.840 --> 1:13:33.760 always easy, which you know, frankly, most of the work 1:13:33.840 --> 1:13:36.639 that I do on older golf courses like Garden City 1:13:36.720 --> 1:13:39.640 or Hollywood or other places I work is restoring. 1:13:39.960 --> 1:13:40.120 You know. 1:13:40.240 --> 1:13:42.479 It's like you've changed this over the years. It was 1:13:42.560 --> 1:13:44.639 really cool one hundred years ago. Let's just put that back, 1:13:44.720 --> 1:13:47.240 and let's put that back as faithfully as we can. 1:13:48.640 --> 1:13:50.840 And then if people don't, you know, if people don't 1:13:50.960 --> 1:13:52.800 like that sort of change, you just blame the dead 1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:55.760 guy and say, well, this isn't me, that's what he did, 1:13:57.160 --> 1:13:59.479 and that's a little more acceptable. When you start changing things, 1:13:59.560 --> 1:14:04.120 you open yourself up to more criticism because my opinion 1:14:04.200 --> 1:14:08.920 is not necessarily better than anyone else's. I'm the one 1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:11.519 being paid to make all those changes, so somebody values 1:14:11.560 --> 1:14:15.640 my opinion. But it's a very different thing and I 1:14:15.720 --> 1:14:16.600 haven't done a lot of that. 1:14:16.720 --> 1:14:17.439 You know, we did some of that. 1:14:17.439 --> 1:14:19.479 Atlantic in Philly a couple of years ago, and I 1:14:19.560 --> 1:14:21.719 think that went over reasonably well. So there's some players 1:14:21.760 --> 1:14:26.120 that hate that too. As long as more people love 1:14:26.160 --> 1:14:27.800 it then hate it, then you're okay, I guess. And 1:14:27.880 --> 1:14:30.360 if you can replace the members that threaten to leave, 1:14:31.840 --> 1:14:32.759 you're in a good spot. 1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:34.200 But it is a challenge. 1:14:34.240 --> 1:14:37.360 I mean, you're taking something that a lot of people 1:14:37.439 --> 1:14:39.040 love and have gotten to know for a long time. 1:14:39.160 --> 1:14:41.160 And you know, they were giving a lot of tours 1:14:41.520 --> 1:14:43.320 this fall as we were doing the work, and members 1:14:43.360 --> 1:14:45.200 that come out and say, oh, this is a completely 1:14:45.240 --> 1:14:45.680 different hole. 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:47.880 I don't know how to play this now. And that's 1:14:47.960 --> 1:14:48.320 kind of the. 1:14:48.400 --> 1:14:50.840 Idea that you're going to have something fresh to play 1:14:50.960 --> 1:14:56.240 and hopefully that's fun and exciting, and hopefully that excitement sticks. 1:14:56.640 --> 1:14:56.800 You know. 1:14:56.960 --> 1:15:00.439 It's like discovering something new can be fun as long 1:15:00.479 --> 1:15:06.120 as people like it, and hopefully that lasts. And you know, 1:15:06.320 --> 1:15:09.880 there's so much of building a golf course, you know, 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:12.880 and people ask about a Barnwell, it's like, you know, 1:15:12.960 --> 1:15:14.920 we just built the kind of golf that we like 1:15:15.040 --> 1:15:17.640 to play, and then you hope that other people like 1:15:17.760 --> 1:15:18.840 to play that kind of golf too. 1:15:19.600 --> 1:15:21.000 And this is the same thing. 1:15:21.080 --> 1:15:22.800 It's like, well, I'm just building something I think is 1:15:22.880 --> 1:15:24.920 really cool and something I would like to play. I 1:15:24.960 --> 1:15:26.760 think this hole is going to be more fun now 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:29.880 than the version you had before. Hopefully you like what 1:15:30.000 --> 1:15:32.920 I like. In two years from now you're all really 1:15:32.920 --> 1:15:34.560 happy with it, or enough of you are happy with it. 1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:37.240 The club is still in a good space, and you've 1:15:37.240 --> 1:15:38.680 got a bunch of other people that want to play 1:15:38.720 --> 1:15:42.760 and join and to fit a good tracker good of that, 1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:45.559 So hopefully that holds for at least a few more projects. 1:15:46.439 --> 1:15:50.920 That's my philosophy with like the podcast, people are like, 1:15:50.960 --> 1:15:53.720 how do you figure out what to talk about? Well, like, 1:15:53.840 --> 1:15:55.920 I just talk about stuff I'm interested in, and I 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:58.960 figure there's thousands of other people that are interested in 1:15:59.040 --> 1:16:01.960 it as well. So I think, you know, take that, like, 1:16:02.320 --> 1:16:05.080 if I like to play this type of golf, then 1:16:05.320 --> 1:16:07.360 I think other people will like to play this type 1:16:07.400 --> 1:16:12.000 of golf. Is a is a generally good philosophy. I 1:16:12.080 --> 1:16:14.800 think like one of the challenges, like I think something 1:16:14.840 --> 1:16:17.680 that I find is fascinating is like country clubs just 1:16:17.800 --> 1:16:22.160 like struggle with chefs. Right, so country like anybody that's 1:16:22.160 --> 1:16:24.519 ever been around the country club there they wrote to 1:16:24.680 --> 1:16:28.960 they rifle through chefs. And I think one of the 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:32.040 things that people it's probably like a good place to work. 1:16:32.160 --> 1:16:34.360 Country club is good, good place to be a chef. 1:16:34.640 --> 1:16:38.320 It's like, well, you have to cook like the staples, 1:16:38.400 --> 1:16:40.760 Like there has to be a stake, there has to 1:16:40.840 --> 1:16:45.479 be like and one of the struggles is like it's 1:16:45.560 --> 1:16:52.599 hard for chefs to feel creatively they have their creative 1:16:53.240 --> 1:16:58.320 itch scratch because like it's a menu that like people 1:16:58.439 --> 1:17:00.160 want to go to the club and know what's on 1:17:00.240 --> 1:17:04.840 the menu, and chefs naturally want to be inspired into 1:17:04.960 --> 1:17:07.280 cooking what they want to cook and try new things 1:17:07.320 --> 1:17:10.639 and experiments. So it's this culture that kind of runs 1:17:10.760 --> 1:17:13.000 counter And I think like one of the things with 1:17:13.479 --> 1:17:16.519 country clubs, having you know, played a country club in 1:17:16.640 --> 1:17:19.879 a different point in my life, is like they're just everybody. 1:17:19.920 --> 1:17:22.679 There's such creatures of habit. Like they play the golf 1:17:22.760 --> 1:17:25.760 course the exact same way they you know, they set 1:17:25.840 --> 1:17:27.680 up the golf course. A lot of golf courses if 1:17:27.680 --> 1:17:31.160 you look in America over the last you know, six decades, 1:17:31.240 --> 1:17:35.679 have removed more optionality from their golf course than they've 1:17:36.000 --> 1:17:37.960 then adding. I think in the last you know, ten 1:17:38.080 --> 1:17:41.520 fifteen years, we've been in a period of them adding optionality. 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:43.320 Whether or not they use it or not is a 1:17:43.360 --> 1:17:47.560 great question. But like, you know, if you put the 1:17:47.680 --> 1:17:52.000 back tea on a middle tea box one day, someone's 1:17:52.120 --> 1:17:54.120 bound to come in and be like, what, why was 1:17:54.200 --> 1:17:55.479 the back tea up on this hole? 1:17:55.800 --> 1:18:00.200 You know. Yeah, and handicap in America plays in that. 1:18:00.280 --> 1:18:01.960 You know, it's like, oh, I've got to I've got 1:18:02.040 --> 1:18:03.640 to post my score and I've got to play from 1:18:03.640 --> 1:18:04.439 the same set of teas. 1:18:04.600 --> 1:18:06.400 It's like, just go out and have fun. Like fun 1:18:06.520 --> 1:18:08.240 is good, but it is funny. 1:18:08.479 --> 1:18:10.040 You know, you change a golf hole and you add 1:18:10.200 --> 1:18:13.120 a bunker in the fair way, and then somebody comes 1:18:13.160 --> 1:18:15.200 out and says, well, I'm going to drive it in 1:18:15.280 --> 1:18:17.120 that bunker every day, Like that's right where I hit 1:18:17.160 --> 1:18:17.559 my drive. 1:18:17.640 --> 1:18:19.519 It's like, then, don't hit driver. 1:18:20.840 --> 1:18:24.599 To do something else, avoid the bunker. But it's funny 1:18:24.640 --> 1:18:27.000 to watch people play a golf course after it's reopened 1:18:27.000 --> 1:18:29.760 when you've made changes, because yeah, they've just tried to 1:18:29.800 --> 1:18:31.200 play it the way they always did, and the golf 1:18:31.240 --> 1:18:32.760 course isn't reacting the same way, and that can be 1:18:32.760 --> 1:18:33.800 frustrating for some people. 1:18:34.720 --> 1:18:38.160 I think one of the things this happened, and I 1:18:38.200 --> 1:18:41.519 don't know if this is just my I just feel 1:18:41.560 --> 1:18:43.360 like one of the things that's happened over the last 1:18:43.400 --> 1:18:46.720 couple of years is that golf courses have been more 1:18:46.800 --> 1:18:53.280 and more it's just like drivers okay almost everywhere. And 1:18:53.400 --> 1:18:56.360 I think, like I play a lot different golf courses 1:18:56.520 --> 1:18:59.160 now than I played when I was like but I 1:18:59.360 --> 1:19:03.479 just think that in a way we've gotten away, like 1:19:03.840 --> 1:19:07.160 from I think part of this is like balancing fun factor, 1:19:08.240 --> 1:19:09.920 Like people think, oh, it's like we have to be 1:19:09.960 --> 1:19:12.479 able to hit driver everywhere, it's fun. And I think 1:19:12.520 --> 1:19:15.280 a lot of this is destination golf getting wideer friendlier, 1:19:15.400 --> 1:19:18.280 which I think overall is a good thing. But I 1:19:18.400 --> 1:19:21.760 do think like the idea of like holes that you 1:19:22.720 --> 1:19:27.120 might hit a three iron have become like this, like 1:19:27.439 --> 1:19:29.960 black sheep. It's like, oh, I can't hit driver, Like 1:19:31.200 --> 1:19:33.640 this isn't fun. But like I do like when I 1:19:33.720 --> 1:19:38.600 think about like putting together a round of golf and 1:19:39.200 --> 1:19:43.320 managing a golf course, like sometimes like holes where you 1:19:43.600 --> 1:19:47.760 have to hit a three iron it's okay, you know. 1:19:48.800 --> 1:19:51.519 I don't know if it's just it could be me 1:19:51.720 --> 1:19:54.800 personally too, just being aggressive because I don't like care 1:19:54.960 --> 1:19:58.160 what I shoot anymore. You know, could be that too, 1:19:58.760 --> 1:20:01.000 But I do feel like it's it's become such a 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:05.360 like with new golf courses, and the general trend is 1:20:05.439 --> 1:20:07.519 like the hole, you almost have to be able to 1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:10.120 hit driver on a hole. I don't know if you 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:10.800 feel that way. 1:20:11.360 --> 1:20:14.400 Yeah, And the Nationals are great, Yeah, I think you're right. 1:20:14.439 --> 1:20:14.760 I mean it. 1:20:16.040 --> 1:20:19.479 Architecturists trended towards big, wide fairways, lots of space, find 1:20:19.479 --> 1:20:20.719 your ball, keep moving. 1:20:22.000 --> 1:20:22.439 Angles. 1:20:22.520 --> 1:20:25.560 Theoretically, the National is a great example. There are a 1:20:25.560 --> 1:20:28.240 handful of holes of National where it's like, you know, 1:20:28.360 --> 1:20:29.880 if you want to hit it more than two to eighty, 1:20:30.439 --> 1:20:32.479 you know, the fairway stops here. If you want to 1:20:32.560 --> 1:20:34.000 hit it further than this, you've got to go over 1:20:34.080 --> 1:20:36.400 there instead to that offset fairway. 1:20:37.000 --> 1:20:38.720 You got a terrible line in from over there. 1:20:39.080 --> 1:20:39.240 You know. 1:20:39.360 --> 1:20:41.000 We tried to do some of that at Old Barnwell, 1:20:41.080 --> 1:20:43.639 Like you can hit driver if you want, Like, there's 1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:46.479 a fairway out here for you to hit driver. But 1:20:46.560 --> 1:20:48.160 we're going to shove you to a place where you 1:20:48.240 --> 1:20:49.680 don't want to be coming in from and make your 1:20:49.720 --> 1:20:52.679 second shot that much harder. And National has a handful 1:20:52.680 --> 1:20:55.000 of holes that do that so well that you know, 1:20:55.200 --> 1:20:58.160 the fairway just ends, you know. The ninth of Mirfield 1:20:58.600 --> 1:21:00.840 is a great example of that too. The bunker's up 1:21:00.880 --> 1:21:05.160 the left and that broken ground. It's like, you know, 1:21:06.000 --> 1:21:09.040 your your your direct line to the hole ends right here, 1:21:09.640 --> 1:21:11.560 you know, And it's a distance where you're still a 1:21:11.600 --> 1:21:13.519 long way from the green. If you want to get 1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:15.439 closer to the green, you can try and squeeze it 1:21:15.520 --> 1:21:17.160 up there, but you don't. You may not like where 1:21:17.160 --> 1:21:17.640 you end up. 1:21:19.960 --> 1:21:21.320 So yeah, I don't. I think you're right. 1:21:21.320 --> 1:21:23.400 I don't think golfers like it when you just cut 1:21:23.439 --> 1:21:25.200 them off and there's no place to hit driver. 1:21:27.080 --> 1:21:28.400 But I don't know that this is a bad thing. 1:21:28.479 --> 1:21:33.280 I mean, I think it's like I think it's hole, 1:21:33.760 --> 1:21:35.479 you know, yeah, And I think if you don't do that, 1:21:35.560 --> 1:21:39.839 it's hard to get longer irons at a reasonable yardage 1:21:40.240 --> 1:21:43.559 on like a smaller parcel land, Like, how how else 1:21:43.600 --> 1:21:46.240 are you going to get a seven iron six iron 1:21:46.280 --> 1:21:48.760 into a long hitter's hand other than cutting off the 1:21:48.800 --> 1:21:49.240 fair away. 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:52.360 Yeah, make a you know, if there's a four hundred 1:21:52.360 --> 1:21:55.200 and seventy yard part four, you're not hitting five irons 1:21:55.200 --> 1:21:56.640 into those holes today, no. 1:21:56.880 --> 1:21:58.280 Which is kind of insane. 1:21:59.280 --> 1:21:59.680 I played it. 1:22:00.400 --> 1:22:01.880 People hate long part threes, you know. 1:22:01.920 --> 1:22:03.720 They tend to hate long part threes too, Like when 1:22:03.760 --> 1:22:06.720 you force good players to hit a long club into 1:22:06.720 --> 1:22:08.320 a part three, they seem to hate that too. So 1:22:08.400 --> 1:22:10.680 you can't win because that's really the only place to 1:22:10.720 --> 1:22:13.960 force somebody to hit a long club is a two 1:22:14.400 --> 1:22:15.519 and ninety yard part three. 1:22:15.880 --> 1:22:16.760 But nobody likes that. 1:22:17.720 --> 1:22:19.479 I played one of the courses I grew up playing 1:22:20.240 --> 1:22:24.439 this fall, and they built a new back tee on 1:22:24.560 --> 1:22:27.920 one of the holes and it it. It was it's 1:22:27.960 --> 1:22:31.120 like thirty yards back of where the old back tea 1:22:31.240 --> 1:22:34.200 used to be. And I hit driver and I hit 1:22:34.240 --> 1:22:37.120 a really good t shot and it was amazing because 1:22:37.120 --> 1:22:38.840 I got to it and I was like, oh, this 1:22:39.000 --> 1:22:41.760 is like where I used to hit approach shots in 1:22:41.920 --> 1:22:42.799 when I was in high. 1:22:42.640 --> 1:22:46.240 School club anymore. 1:22:47.280 --> 1:22:49.320 Yeah, but it was it was wild to be because 1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:52.240 it's like, this is a hole. It was like four 1:22:52.280 --> 1:22:55.880 to fifty hole. Now it's like four to eighty. The 1:22:56.000 --> 1:22:58.960 four to fifty hole was had become just driver wedge, 1:23:00.040 --> 1:23:04.560 which is wild. It's insane, insane, And it used to 1:23:04.640 --> 1:23:07.560 be like a good drive in the there was like 1:23:07.640 --> 1:23:11.040 a little rise at two fifty at two hundred out 1:23:12.200 --> 1:23:14.320 from the green, So two fifty when I was in 1:23:14.439 --> 1:23:17.000 high school, I mean like that was like a good carry, 1:23:17.120 --> 1:23:19.280 like and if you didn't hit it good, you didn't 1:23:19.320 --> 1:23:22.240 carry the rise, so you wouldn't get the bounce. And 1:23:22.360 --> 1:23:24.720 it's like, you know what, Like now that it's back, 1:23:24.800 --> 1:23:27.160 it's like kind of an intact but still at four 1:23:27.240 --> 1:23:30.280 eighty for a really long hitter. And I just played 1:23:30.320 --> 1:23:33.960 recently with a kid in high school who's sixteen, who 1:23:34.080 --> 1:23:36.920 like flew at fifteen yards past me and I'm like, oh, 1:23:37.040 --> 1:23:39.120 and he's never gonna think about you know, like four 1:23:39.200 --> 1:23:42.600 eighty is just driver wedge. It's it's utterly nuts. I 1:23:42.680 --> 1:23:46.920 don't understand, you know, like for a constrained property in 1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:50.280 old school golf course, like what, you know, where can 1:23:50.360 --> 1:23:53.040 you go when you only have one hundred and fifty acres? 1:23:53.439 --> 1:23:57.120 Yeah, yeah, that's tough. That's tough. And there's I think 1:23:57.120 --> 1:23:57.920 there's something low. 1:23:58.000 --> 1:24:01.479 I mean, the satisfaction kind of hitting a great four 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:03.840 iron is totally different than the satisfaction of hitting a 1:24:03.880 --> 1:24:04.599 great seven iron. 1:24:05.600 --> 1:24:07.800 But how often do you have that opportunity? You know, 1:24:07.920 --> 1:24:10.160 you don't get to hit great four roans because you 1:24:10.240 --> 1:24:10.760 hit it too far. 1:24:11.680 --> 1:24:13.840 Do I know you don't watch a ton of pro golf. 1:24:13.880 --> 1:24:17.720 Do you remember Rory mcroy's two iron into eighteen at 1:24:17.720 --> 1:24:19.560 the Scottish Open a couple of years ago because he 1:24:19.640 --> 1:24:22.360 was playing into like the thirty I mean, like, yes, 1:24:22.479 --> 1:24:26.439 that shot. I will never forget that shot. If it 1:24:26.520 --> 1:24:28.200 was a wedge I would have forgotten it by now, 1:24:28.640 --> 1:24:30.680 you know, or if it was an eight iron or 1:24:30.720 --> 1:24:34.000 a seven iron even, but that was just extraordinary, And 1:24:34.120 --> 1:24:36.519 I think like the same thing for a player, Like 1:24:36.960 --> 1:24:41.880 the shots you remember the most are generally the extraordinary shots, 1:24:41.920 --> 1:24:44.360 and they usually aren't with seven irons. They're usually with 1:24:44.520 --> 1:24:48.040 like four irons or hitting an amazing recovery shot around 1:24:48.080 --> 1:24:50.519 the greens or you know, those are the shots I 1:24:50.800 --> 1:24:53.080 tend to find myself remembering the most. 1:24:53.600 --> 1:24:55.800 Yeah, you give great players seven irons and they're hitting 1:24:55.800 --> 1:24:58.280 it inside ten feet three times out of ten. 1:24:58.680 --> 1:25:01.360 You know, great shots. 1:25:01.680 --> 1:25:05.760 Now you're going to get You're going to get the 1:25:05.840 --> 1:25:10.200 stat voice coming at you. You gave cold, you have 1:25:10.360 --> 1:25:13.720 to speak in vague vagary or else they will weapodize 1:25:13.800 --> 1:25:16.080 their stats in any way to get you. 1:25:16.280 --> 1:25:18.800 Well. In any case, they're they're really good at hitting 1:25:18.880 --> 1:25:20.920 seven arons relatively close to the hole. 1:25:22.240 --> 1:25:24.360 I love watching the old shells matches where guys are 1:25:24.400 --> 1:25:28.439 running forwoods on the greens. Yeah, like that you don't 1:25:28.439 --> 1:25:30.080 see anymore, and that was fun to watch. 1:25:30.560 --> 1:25:34.120 I mean for golf architecture to and and this is 1:25:34.320 --> 1:25:40.000 so true for like ninety golfers. Is the your construction 1:25:40.160 --> 1:25:44.120 of greens extends well beyond the green because it goes 1:25:44.160 --> 1:25:47.160 into the approaches for those running shots that is all 1:25:47.320 --> 1:25:47.680 thought of. 1:25:48.040 --> 1:25:48.720 I mean, what is it? 1:25:48.880 --> 1:25:51.320 Is it about twenty yards an ind for most holes? 1:25:52.240 --> 1:25:56.280 Yeah, that is still the way a lot of people play. Yeah, yeah, 1:25:56.360 --> 1:25:58.760 and especially a lot of a lot of ladies. I 1:25:58.840 --> 1:26:03.040 mean watching even watching the women's tours, the trajectory is 1:26:03.080 --> 1:26:06.519 totally different. Completely, It's more relatable and it's more fun 1:26:06.600 --> 1:26:08.720 to watch because angles still do matter for them a 1:26:08.760 --> 1:26:11.280 little bit, or it doesn't on the tour. But yeah, 1:26:11.320 --> 1:26:13.960 it certainly depending on what kind of all you're building. 1:26:14.040 --> 1:26:16.439 It's the twenty thirty forty yards short of the green 1:26:16.479 --> 1:26:18.760 and then everything around the green that you're spending a 1:26:18.800 --> 1:26:19.920 lot of time thinking about too. 1:26:21.600 --> 1:26:24.160 Just this is a complete off the top of your head. 1:26:24.200 --> 1:26:30.280 I'm curious women's Open is going to like extraordinary places, 1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:35.160 but they're mostly men's open sites. What's one course understanding, 1:26:35.280 --> 1:26:40.160 like sixty five hundred yards is fine? Is great for 1:26:40.280 --> 1:26:43.360 women's golf. I think Lancaster was a great example of 1:26:43.439 --> 1:26:45.679 a golf course that would never host a men's event 1:26:45.760 --> 1:26:50.759 that shined last year. What's one golf course in America 1:26:51.120 --> 1:26:55.439 you'd love to see host a women's tournament beside Cypress 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:57.040 point beside Cypress? 1:26:57.200 --> 1:27:00.680 Yeah, answer, no, you gotta go a little well, give 1:27:00.760 --> 1:27:03.559 us something, Give us something, give us like your favorite, 1:27:04.760 --> 1:27:06.880 give us an Indie rock, don't give us the rolling 1:27:06.960 --> 1:27:07.439 stones here. 1:27:07.520 --> 1:27:09.720 Yeah, it's all the easy Pine Valley than National, Like 1:27:09.800 --> 1:27:11.880 all those are too easy because they should be going 1:27:11.920 --> 1:27:15.599 to those places because they can't, you know amazing. Yeah, 1:27:15.840 --> 1:27:19.479 they can play all those places without having to change 1:27:19.520 --> 1:27:20.200 the golf course. 1:27:20.560 --> 1:27:22.280 It would be so much fun, and they're starting to 1:27:22.320 --> 1:27:23.000 take advantage of that. 1:27:23.080 --> 1:27:26.040 I think, finally, maybe I don't think. I don't think 1:27:26.080 --> 1:27:29.639 the LPGA like I think the best women's product would 1:27:29.640 --> 1:27:32.200 be if you like reworked at and said, like we're 1:27:32.240 --> 1:27:34.280 only going to host like we're gonna do like twelve 1:27:34.320 --> 1:27:38.479 events a year at like the premiere golf courses in 1:27:38.600 --> 1:27:41.680 the world, and try and pitch it that way. I 1:27:41.760 --> 1:27:45.040 think you could get like a unbelievable product because you 1:27:45.120 --> 1:27:48.280 could actually have like the footprints matchup. 1:27:48.840 --> 1:27:49.040 Yeah. 1:27:49.600 --> 1:27:53.200 Yeah, ninety ninety seven percent of the top fifty golf 1:27:53.240 --> 1:27:55.639 courses in the world don't work for the man anymore. 1:27:56.160 --> 1:27:58.160 They'd almost all work for the ladies. 1:27:58.320 --> 1:28:03.320 Sunningdale, you know, Saint Jorge, just hell Roll, Melbourne, Kingston Heath, 1:28:03.880 --> 1:28:04.920 they'd all be fantastic. 1:28:05.760 --> 1:28:07.519 It would be fun to watch them go around those 1:28:07.520 --> 1:28:08.080 golf courses. 1:28:08.439 --> 1:28:11.479 One one off the radar. One give us, give us 1:28:11.520 --> 1:28:16.599 something for the archives here, you know, uh see. 1:28:16.400 --> 1:28:21.000 You're putting me on the spot. Country Club is Scranton. 1:28:21.120 --> 1:28:21.560 How about that? 1:28:22.160 --> 1:28:25.040 There you go, Walter Travis. Why would it be fun? 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:28.000 It's because it's a wild set of greens where you 1:28:28.160 --> 1:28:29.640 need to think about where you're going to land the ball, 1:28:29.680 --> 1:28:30.880 and there are a bunch of greens there where you 1:28:31.080 --> 1:28:35.839 can't land your ball down the putting surface and feel comfortable. 1:28:36.280 --> 1:28:37.960 So you've got to run balls onto greens, and I 1:28:38.000 --> 1:28:40.080 think it'd be a blast to watch that. It's kind 1:28:40.080 --> 1:28:42.120 of their short game, and like their short game shots 1:28:42.160 --> 1:28:46.120 are so fun to watch too, because yeah, they just 1:28:46.240 --> 1:28:48.920 they play it a different trajectory and they're so good 1:28:49.439 --> 1:28:50.760 at the shots I love to watch. 1:28:52.720 --> 1:28:55.000 The topography would be great there too, because it's a 1:28:55.120 --> 1:28:58.240 fairly severe piece of land, right, Like it's got kind 1:28:58.280 --> 1:29:03.200 of like heaving movement right yep, yes, all time, All time. 1:29:03.280 --> 1:29:05.839 Regret was I went to a buddy's wedding in Scranton 1:29:06.040 --> 1:29:08.840 and didn't stop there. It's like, how many times are 1:29:08.840 --> 1:29:11.240 you going to find yourself with a weekend in Scranton? 1:29:11.360 --> 1:29:15.719 But I was with my wife and she doesn't play golf, 1:29:15.880 --> 1:29:17.599 and she didn't know anybody at the wedding. 1:29:18.400 --> 1:29:18.800 That's pray. 1:29:18.880 --> 1:29:20.760 Before you were a big deal too, you could you 1:29:20.800 --> 1:29:24.040 could just make that happen now you're you're a celebrity, 1:29:24.120 --> 1:29:24.840 But it might have. 1:29:24.800 --> 1:29:25.639 Been tough for back then. 1:29:26.479 --> 1:29:30.439 So I yeah, well it should have gone. Should have gone. 1:29:31.080 --> 1:29:33.839 It's not going anywhere. You got too many places to see. 1:29:34.120 --> 1:29:37.800 Way too many, too and too little time. Brian, thank 1:29:37.880 --> 1:29:40.479 you for coming on. Uh, it's always fun to talk 1:29:40.720 --> 1:29:44.120 golf courses with you. And look forward to seeing some 1:29:44.200 --> 1:29:48.519 of your new work this year. Silver Spring maybe getting 1:29:48.560 --> 1:30:03.439 out there this year anytime. All right, big thanks for 1:30:03.560 --> 1:30:06.479 listening to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. I 1:30:06.600 --> 1:30:10.040 head to Scotland this week. I will be in Scotland. 1:30:10.120 --> 1:30:13.519 We'll have an episode next week with Garrett Morrison. We're 1:30:13.560 --> 1:30:17.439 gonna dive into a couple of topics and I will 1:30:17.520 --> 1:30:22.040 be abroad, but we will be back next week. And 1:30:22.200 --> 1:30:27.000 big thanks to PJ Clark for producing, editing and getting 1:30:27.080 --> 1:30:29.719 this podcast out to the world. Thanks PJ.