WEBVTT - The Pinkerton Detective Agency

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. So I'm Josh, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's Chuck and there's Jerry and this is stuff you

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<v Speaker 2>should know. You we're keeping an eye on you, sucker.

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<v Speaker 3>Did I throw you off when I'm pre recording.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I'm always expecting anything from you.

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<v Speaker 1>We do our usual countdown everyone so we can sink sound,

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<v Speaker 1>and you do that. Here's a little how the sausage

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<v Speaker 1>is made. You do that by a counting down and

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<v Speaker 1>then each of us clapping so you have a spike

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<v Speaker 1>in the audio wave file that the engineers and editors

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<v Speaker 1>can align, so we match up right, and I clapped,

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<v Speaker 1>But this time I also said schlamiel, hoping you would say, oh.

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<v Speaker 2>You set me up. Huh, I'm sorry here, let me

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<v Speaker 2>say it now, Shla masel.

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<v Speaker 3>There you go.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, are you ready to get on with our sausage party?

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<v Speaker 3>Gross? Yeah, sure, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>That was nice of you to kind of give that

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<v Speaker 2>behind the scenes tour to everybody. Chuck, Yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's why everyone likes you.

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<v Speaker 3>More trade secrets. That's not true. So I've been on Reddit.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever. Everybody likes you, including me, especially me. At any rate.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're talking today about the Pinkerton Detective Agency, and

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<v Speaker 2>this one strikes me as odd that we have waited

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<v Speaker 2>this long seventeen years to finally talk about them. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and uh, because they're just so legendary. You know, like

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<v Speaker 2>everybody knows what the Pinkertons are, and if you don't,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not taking that back, because everyone else knows what

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<v Speaker 2>the Pinkertons are.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency technically was the name

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<v Speaker 1>of it, but they were generally called the Pinkertons, led

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<v Speaker 1>by Alan Pinkerton, and they're you know, what they're known

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<v Speaker 1>for is being one of the first or perhaps the first,

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<v Speaker 1>and I say private detective agency, but not like we

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<v Speaker 1>think of pi's.

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<v Speaker 2>Like not Sam Spade stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, just a detective agency that's privatized like

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<v Speaker 1>police kind of detective work, right, And you know, they

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<v Speaker 1>did a lot of stuff, including, as we'll see, busting

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<v Speaker 1>up bank robbers and then later busting up unions.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It took a dark turn for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but they got their their start doing you know,

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<v Speaker 1>God's work by working in the Abolitionist.

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<v Speaker 3>Movie, by helping to free enslave people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, that's one thing. So there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>stuff you'll find when you dig into the history of

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<v Speaker 2>the Pinkerton Detective Agency. It depends on who you're reading.

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<v Speaker 2>Either they were pretty great and did some really great work,

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<v Speaker 2>or they were evil from the start. And then apparently

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<v Speaker 2>also one of the things that complicates it is Alan

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<v Speaker 2>Pinkerton was known to kind of hype his own company,

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<v Speaker 2>hype his own exploits. Yeah, and some people interpret that

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<v Speaker 2>as like personal myth making, and whether that's correct or not.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of historians have delved into and I think

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<v Speaker 2>the answer generally is it's a case by case thing,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's actually true, whether it actually happened quite that way.

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<v Speaker 2>But for the most part, from what I saw from

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<v Speaker 2>researching this is generally most of the stuff can be

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<v Speaker 2>accepted at surface level. For the most part, it's not like,

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<v Speaker 2>if you buy into this story that we're about to

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<v Speaker 2>tell you yeah, yeah, that you're just being totally misled.

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<v Speaker 2>So for the most part, just relax is what I'm trying.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so we'll go back in time and hoping the

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<v Speaker 3>way back machine to witness the bird.

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<v Speaker 1>It's eighteen nineteen in Scotland, so it's not a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>sight no giving birth back then, but little Alan Pinkerton

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<v Speaker 1>is born in Scotland. He is the son of a

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<v Speaker 1>police sergeant, so you know, law enforcement was in his

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<v Speaker 1>family roots. And he went to the United States in

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen forty two at the age of twenty three. And

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<v Speaker 1>we should kind of mention just one thing he was

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<v Speaker 1>involved in early on in Scotland before he left was

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<v Speaker 1>something called the Chartist movement, which was we're not going

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<v Speaker 1>to get super into it, but it was basically a

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<v Speaker 1>movement of the working class over there that tried One

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<v Speaker 1>of the main things they tried to do is extend

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<v Speaker 1>voting rights to all men, non landowners, that is.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, and election of parliamentary members. That kind of

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<v Speaker 2>stuff is basically democratic reform in England. And at the

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<v Speaker 2>time this was considered radical politics.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And Alan Pinkerton actually fled the country with his family

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<v Speaker 2>because the fuzz was looking for him, essentially, and they

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<v Speaker 2>landed in the Chicago area Dundee, Illinois, appropriately enough. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and he decided that he would become a cooper, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>which is somebody who makes barrels. And I guess he

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<v Speaker 2>was a pretty decent barrel maker because he did it

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<v Speaker 2>for a little while.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they it's a trade he learned in Scotland. So

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<v Speaker 1>he opened up that Cooper Ridge and Dundee, like you said,

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<v Speaker 1>And a fortuitous incident happened as a cooper when he

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<v Speaker 1>was on apparently this sort of abandoned or maybe just

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<v Speaker 1>not claimed land cutting wood looking for wood for barrels,

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<v Speaker 1>and he discovered a hideout of some counterfeitters. He rustled

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<v Speaker 1>up a posse, got some citizens together and captured them,

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<v Speaker 1>and for his efforts got a lot of local notoriety.

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<v Speaker 1>And they said, hey, how about you become deputy sheriff

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<v Speaker 1>here in Caine County, Illinois. And this was in eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>forty six, and he said, well, I guess dad was

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<v Speaker 1>a copper and so maybe I should be too, or

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<v Speaker 1>a quasi copper at least.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. This was actually before Chicago had an established police force. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was a big deal to be a cop.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you were a cop, they also called them

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<v Speaker 2>watchmen because in a lot of cases that's what it

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<v Speaker 2>amounted to, like these men would not go into the

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<v Speaker 2>highest crime areas and they would avoid the most dangerous criminals.

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<v Speaker 2>And there were just a few handfuls of them, but

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<v Speaker 2>Pinkerton made a name for himself very quickly as somebody

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<v Speaker 2>who had just like a sixth sense for just knowing

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<v Speaker 2>when somebody was up to no good and following them

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<v Speaker 2>and seeing what they were up to, for being fearless. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and for not accepting bribes. He was as honest as

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<v Speaker 2>the day as long as far as bribery is concerned.

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<v Speaker 2>And that made him stand out. And he started kind

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<v Speaker 2>of moving up the ranks pretty quickly and moved from

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<v Speaker 2>Kinge County to Cook County, where he worked in the

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<v Speaker 2>assessor's office, protecting Steven Spielberg.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm not sure I get the reference.

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<v Speaker 2>From Blues Brothers. Remember, wasn't Steven Spielberg the Cook County

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<v Speaker 2>assessor eating the sandwich when they come to pay the taxes? Uh?

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<v Speaker 3>Frank Oz?

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<v Speaker 2>No, Frank Oz was the the guy in the captain

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<v Speaker 2>property room.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, with Spielberg in that too.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm pretty sure he was the assessor at the

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<v Speaker 2>Cook County Assessor's office.

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<v Speaker 3>I believe you. I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>I shamefully don't know Blues Brothers as well as clearly

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<v Speaker 1>you do.

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<v Speaker 2>So either, I'm like really just making this stuff up.

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<v Speaker 2>But we've had this conversation and we were fully on

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<v Speaker 2>board with Spielberg being an assessor. Oh you know me

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<v Speaker 2>and I mean this was like two weeks ago.

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<v Speaker 3>No, it wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, it wasn't two weeks ago. But we have had

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<v Speaker 2>this conversation. I know we have.

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<v Speaker 1>I've just turned fifty four, so things are slipping, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll ease off.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so that's what happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Eventually he would also be a special agent for the

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<v Speaker 1>US Post Office, and finally in eighteen fifty he started

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<v Speaker 1>the detective agency, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. Apparently was

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<v Speaker 1>the first detective. He was named the first detective in Chicago,

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<v Speaker 1>I think previous to this at just thirty one years old.

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<v Speaker 1>And from the beginning from eighteen fifty till the end

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<v Speaker 1>of emancipation, Like I mentioned from the outset, he worked

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<v Speaker 1>to assist the escape and freeing of enslaved people. I

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<v Speaker 1>think he even had a stop, like a volunteer to

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<v Speaker 1>stop on the underground railroad.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there was one. He apparently was bosom friends

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<v Speaker 2>with John Brown. As he put it, he had a

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<v Speaker 2>real chance to coin the term bosom buddies, but he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't do it.

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<v Speaker 3>Friends. Yeah, the ring does it.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it really doesn't. But John Brown, the white abolitionist

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<v Speaker 2>gorilla essentially made a raid on a few farms in

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<v Speaker 2>Missouri and ended up freeing eleven enslaved people and leading

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<v Speaker 2>them to Canada. And one of the stops was with

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<v Speaker 2>Alan Pinkerton in Chicago, and Pinkerton by this time was

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<v Speaker 2>wealthy enough that he paid for I guess, the train

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<v Speaker 2>ride from Chicago onto Detroit for everybody who John Brown

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<v Speaker 2>had busted out. So he definitely was an abolitionist, and

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<v Speaker 2>from what I read was like from the moment he

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<v Speaker 2>landed in the United States, he was an abolitionist. This

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't like him pumping up his image years later.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So a lot of the other work they were doing,

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<v Speaker 1>they were doing other, you know work as an agency

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<v Speaker 1>besides working in the in the emancipayer, I guess, the

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<v Speaker 1>abolitionist movement. But this was you know, again in and

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<v Speaker 1>around Chicago that didn't have a real police department at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, and they didn't exactly work as cops though.

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<v Speaker 1>It was sort of this weird hybrid of a thing

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<v Speaker 1>like they were.

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<v Speaker 3>It wasn't like.

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<v Speaker 1>Police, it wasn't like a private detective agency. But they

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<v Speaker 1>also weren't like full on cops. It was kind of

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<v Speaker 1>hard to define at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think one of the big distinction was is

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<v Speaker 2>they weren't out there like actively seeking crime as part

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<v Speaker 2>of the public good. They were hired to find like

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<v Speaker 2>specific things, specific criminals, or to prevent specific crimes by

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<v Speaker 2>corporations typically, And one of the early employers or clients

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<v Speaker 2>I guess were the railroads because at the time, people

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<v Speaker 2>would steal from railroads left and right. There were just

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<v Speaker 2>so many goods going across the United States. It was

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<v Speaker 2>just too tempting, and they started I think the first railroad, possibly,

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<v Speaker 2>if not one of the first, was the Illinois Central Railroad,

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<v Speaker 2>and they worked security and did detective work for this railroad.

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<v Speaker 2>And this would be a significant client for Pinkerton to

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<v Speaker 2>land throughout the rest of his life because the corporate

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<v Speaker 2>attorney for the Illinois Central Railroad at the time was

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<v Speaker 2>Abraham Lincoln and the president of the railroad was William McClellan.

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<v Speaker 2>And when you put those two together, you have some

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<v Speaker 2>high powered Civil War people on the Union side, and

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<v Speaker 2>as we'll see, Alan Pinkerton join them in the Civil War.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if you've ever seen there weren't a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>photographs back then, but there's a very famous photograph of

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<v Speaker 1>Lincoln at Antietam.

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<v Speaker 3>Have you ever seen this one?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I was looking at it today.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's Pinkerton on the left. He's with two dudes

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<v Speaker 1>standing in front of that canvas tent. And that's Pinkerton

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<v Speaker 1>on the left and Major General John mclarenand on the

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<v Speaker 1>right of Lincoln, who always just not forget. But anytime

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<v Speaker 1>you see a photo like that where you and there

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<v Speaker 1>aren't many where you see like full size the full

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<v Speaker 1>sized Lincoln doll, right, yeah, or cardboard cutout. He's just

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<v Speaker 1>impossibly tall for back then. And then that stove pipe

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<v Speaker 1>hat just adds to it obviously. But I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if he wore that hat to further imitant intimidate people,

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<v Speaker 1>but he was just such a tall, lanky guy.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just odd looking for that time period.

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<v Speaker 2>For sure. I have trouble anytime I say stovepipe hat

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<v Speaker 2>not saying stove top hat.

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<v Speaker 3>Instead of stove top stuff. Did you eat that stuff?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we never got to eat that stuff. My mom

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<v Speaker 1>didn't buy that stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we ate that stuff, for sure. We ate all

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of weird stuff like that, just.

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<v Speaker 3>Like dehydrated bread crumbs.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, but very tasty.

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<v Speaker 3>With herbs and stuff. M And what do you do?

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<v Speaker 3>You just mix it with some or put it on

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<v Speaker 3>a casserole topper.

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<v Speaker 2>You put it in a pot with some weight, you

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<v Speaker 2>boil a little water, and then you add it to

0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.000
<v Speaker 2>the water, soaks up the water, and then you add

0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.640
<v Speaker 2>like ten sticks of butter, which is really what drives

0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:24.680
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing home. There you go, and then yeah,

0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.240
<v Speaker 2>you put it in your mouth directly from the pot. Typically.

0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.760
<v Speaker 1>All right, well, this episode is clearly brought to you

0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:32.640
<v Speaker 1>by stovetop stuffing instead of potatoes.

0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Hey, one other thing too. While we're on a tangent.

0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:39.679
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned Sam Spade earlier. I cannot recommend enough the

0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:44.920
<v Speaker 2>limited series Monsieur Spade. It's on Netflix, starring Clive Owen.

0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:45.520
<v Speaker 2>Have you seen it?

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:46.000
<v Speaker 3>I have not.

0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.640
<v Speaker 2>God, it's so good. But at the same time, I've

0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:58.240
<v Speaker 2>never seen such a tightly constructed show just come totally

0:12:58.280 --> 0:12:59.360
<v Speaker 2>off the rails in like.

0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.600
<v Speaker 3>The last hour in a bad way.

0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, ultimately compared to the rest of the shows,

0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.959
<v Speaker 2>it's bad, but it's almost like they forgot that they

0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.600
<v Speaker 2>had to wrap it up and they just shot a

0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.400
<v Speaker 2>scene and that was it, and it was like so

0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.520
<v Speaker 2>totally improbable and just stood out so far from the

0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.000
<v Speaker 2>rest of the series that you're just like, what, But

0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>luckily the rest of the series is so great it

0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 2>doesn't really damage it at all.

0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.360
<v Speaker 1>Oh, well, you led me down the right path with

0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:27.959
<v Speaker 1>black doves, so I'll give it a shot.

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm really glad you guys liked that. Did you finish it?

0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:31.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's good that one fell apart at the end too.

0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.280
<v Speaker 3>You think, m huh, I liked it, man, you just

0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:39.080
<v Speaker 3>don't like things ending.

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Maybe not all.

0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.520
<v Speaker 1>Right, back to who are we talking about here, Pinkerton,

0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:53.400
<v Speaker 1>not stovepipe or stuffing. So like I said, he was,

0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.120
<v Speaker 1>or like you said, I guess he was buddies with

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Lincoln pre Civil War and had gotten to know what

0:13:59.800 --> 0:13:59.920
<v Speaker 1>was this.

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:05.200
<v Speaker 2>Name, William McClelland who would become the general that's right,

0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:06.480
<v Speaker 2>the head of the Union.

0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:07.200
<v Speaker 3>Forces, that's right.

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.280
<v Speaker 1>So that leads us to a story, a pretty major

0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.800
<v Speaker 1>story story early on, I guess it's not that early on.

0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.079
<v Speaker 1>It's about eleven years into the Detective Agency. But Pinkerton

0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:20.960
<v Speaker 1>learned of an assassination plot against President elect Lincoln at

0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:27.200
<v Speaker 1>the time, and there was a barber in Baltimore from Corsica.

0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:32.440
<v Speaker 1>His name was a Cipriano FADENDINEI, and he wanted to

0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.000
<v Speaker 1>kill Abraham Lincoln when he was coming through Baltimore. When

0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 1>Lincoln was on his way to Washington and Pinkerton, you know,

0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.680
<v Speaker 1>found out about this and was like, you're not going

0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:43.440
<v Speaker 1>to kill my buddy.

0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:44.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to thwart your plan.

0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he did. This was apparently like part of a

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.800
<v Speaker 2>general plan to prevent Lincoln from making it to his

0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:57.240
<v Speaker 2>inauguration in Washington. Right, just kill him in Baltimore, right, So,

0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:03.720
<v Speaker 2>as Lincoln got told Baltimore, they enacted a plan where

0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.400
<v Speaker 2>he was taken off of the train at a stop

0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:10.840
<v Speaker 2>I think like Harrisburg or something right before Baltimore, and

0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:16.080
<v Speaker 2>he was disguised and he basically played the brother of

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.360
<v Speaker 2>a woman named Kate Warren, who was a detective who

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 2>will talk about in a second, and she escorted him

0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.000
<v Speaker 2>on another train through Baltimore that went through at night,

0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.840
<v Speaker 2>again in disguise. No one knew who he was. And

0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that kind of came out of

0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.280
<v Speaker 2>the story that was so significant was that Kate Warren

0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.240
<v Speaker 2>stayed up all night and watched over Abraham Lincoln on

0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.400
<v Speaker 2>this train ride to Washington, d C. And that kind

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.520
<v Speaker 2>of coined this term or this slogan that they adopted,

0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.760
<v Speaker 2>we never sleep and led to the logo which was

0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 2>this open eye, like the all seeing eye that's watching you,

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:54.560
<v Speaker 2>that never sleep yepes.

0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 3>And that eventually led to the just the term private eyes.

0:15:57.840 --> 0:15:59.720
<v Speaker 2>Right, yes, exactly.

0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:00.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.960
<v Speaker 1>I imagine Lincoln was a pretty hard guy to disguise

0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 1>now that I think about his height, that mustacheless beard

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.120
<v Speaker 1>and that hat, like they're probably like, take off the

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 1>hat to begin with the first, get that hat off your.

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Head, right, get that stove top hat off.

0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 3>And they got a sharpie.

0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.280
<v Speaker 1>They drew on a mustache and then they they probably

0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.200
<v Speaker 1>put him if they would have been smart, they would

0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.320
<v Speaker 1>have put him like in a wheelchair or something, which

0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:25.680
<v Speaker 1>they made.

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 2>I saw that he was. I guess the term that

0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.240
<v Speaker 2>you would use today is like he posed as a

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.359
<v Speaker 2>handicap brother to Kate Warren.

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.720
<v Speaker 3>Oh there you go, oh and told him to lower

0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:37.200
<v Speaker 3>his voice.

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.840
<v Speaker 2>Right. It was a very good cher.

0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:42.000
<v Speaker 3>It was very.

0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.840
<v Speaker 1>Shocking still when everyone saw Lincoln and Daniel Day Lewis

0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:46.920
<v Speaker 1>came out like this.

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know it was quite a choice, and only

0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Daniel day Lewis would have been allowed to do that too, totally.

0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Anybody else the director had been like, what are you

0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:58.560
<v Speaker 2>doing exactly?

0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.320
<v Speaker 3>You don't question him. So you mentioned Kate Warren? Is

0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.040
<v Speaker 3>it Warren and not Warny?

0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:04.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's Warren?

0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:06.480
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Wrny.

0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.679
<v Speaker 1>She's very notable too, though, aside from just assisting in

0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.800
<v Speaker 1>this plot to save Lincoln or I guess action to

0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.960
<v Speaker 1>save Lincoln against the plot.

0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 3>She was a.

0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.240
<v Speaker 1>Detective like Pinkerton in a very forward thinking sort of way.

0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:25.440
<v Speaker 1>In eighteen fifty six, hired her after she convinced him like, hey,

0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:27.879
<v Speaker 1>you get you know, there are things that women can do,

0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.920
<v Speaker 1>places we can infiltrate information, we can get in ways

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.880
<v Speaker 1>that men cannot. And he saw the value in that

0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.560
<v Speaker 1>hired her, and then I think, but four years later

0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.639
<v Speaker 1>made her head of the female detective Bureau. So they

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.240
<v Speaker 1>kind of stamped up with some women to work in

0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 1>these undercover roles.

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's really like this was unheard of. So

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 2>eighteen fifty six is when he hires her. The first

0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.679
<v Speaker 2>actual sworn policewoman that I could find in the United

0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:02.920
<v Speaker 2>States was a woman named Lola baldin eighty s Portland, Oregon. Yeah,

0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.760
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen oh eight. Okay, so, uh, forty four plus

0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.439
<v Speaker 2>eight is fifty four fifty two years, Yeah, fifty two

0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:14.920
<v Speaker 2>years ahead of schedule. Pinkerton hired a woman and made

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.400
<v Speaker 2>her a very famous detective and just.

0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:19.480
<v Speaker 1>Super smart, you know, because she was right on the money.

0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure there were great assets to their cause.

0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.640
<v Speaker 2>For sure. You want to take a break, Yeah, let's

0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:25.960
<v Speaker 2>do it.

0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:58.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, so we're back with more on Pinkerton.

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.440
<v Speaker 1>The Silver War would begin, and Lincoln put George McClellan,

0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.040
<v Speaker 1>who we previously mentioned as someone who knew Pinkerton through

0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.720
<v Speaker 1>the railroad business, put him in charge of the Army

0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 1>of the Potomac, and he said, hey, Pinkerton does pretty

0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:15.920
<v Speaker 1>good work. I'm going to bring this guy in as

0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.800
<v Speaker 1>sort of a head spy. We'll call it like a

0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.840
<v Speaker 1>secret service division. And he worked under Allan Pinkerton, that is,

0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.960
<v Speaker 1>worked under the code name Major E. J. Allen, and

0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.720
<v Speaker 1>was pretty good at rooting out spies, but not so

0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.880
<v Speaker 1>good at intelligent gathering and interpretation.

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.800
<v Speaker 2>No, he rooted out a spir ring led by a

0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.919
<v Speaker 2>woman named Rose O'Neil greenhow who was a Southerner but

0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.080
<v Speaker 2>was still like the toast of Washington D c. Society,

0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:47.720
<v Speaker 2>And she was really running a very sophisticated and very

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.960
<v Speaker 2>developed spirring for the Confederacy, and he found her out,

0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.520
<v Speaker 2>busted everybody. It was a big deal. But with estimating

0:19:55.560 --> 0:20:02.200
<v Speaker 2>troop strength, no, he may have single handedly added years

0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:06.920
<v Speaker 2>onto the Civil War when he told McClellan. General McClellan

0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:11.119
<v Speaker 2>that he estimated the Confederates had between I think one

0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.200
<v Speaker 2>hundred or two hundred thousand troops.

0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:14.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I saw two hundred.

0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So at the time Robert E. Lee had forty

0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:23.760
<v Speaker 2>thousand to forty five thousand troops, so he grossly overestimated it,

0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.520
<v Speaker 2>and McClellan had something like seventy six thousand troops, so

0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.640
<v Speaker 2>they could have very easily overwhelmed the Confederacy early on,

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:36.840
<v Speaker 2>had Pinkerton not overestimated the troops and had I also

0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.440
<v Speaker 2>saw McClellan didn't vet that information at all. He just

0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.480
<v Speaker 2>took it on face. And by the way, all of

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.600
<v Speaker 2>you Civil War buffs, if you can go back and

0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>unsend your emails, it's not William McClellan, it's George B. McClellan.

0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, I misspoke.

0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh I think I said William too, didn't I? Or

0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:53.520
<v Speaker 3>did I?

0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:54.720
<v Speaker 2>I led you down the wrong pain.

0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:55.240
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.280
<v Speaker 1>So Pinkerton would eventually leave his role in military intelligence.

0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.840
<v Speaker 1>I think this was in eighteen sixty two after McClellan,

0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:09.159
<v Speaker 1>who had hired him, was demoted. Essentially he lost his

0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:16.400
<v Speaker 1>whatever not real huh position. Yeah, I guess he lost

0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:22.359
<v Speaker 1>his positions as rank leader or whatever terms not going

0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.119
<v Speaker 1>to be emailed by civil war buffs at all. And

0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:27.560
<v Speaker 1>then he said, all right, let me go back. You know,

0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:32.040
<v Speaker 1>he still had his private detective agency, so let me

0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.720
<v Speaker 1>go back to doing that. And I guess we can

0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:36.840
<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about some of the other innovations,

0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:40.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, aside from hiring women to work as infiltrators

0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.960
<v Speaker 1>and moles. He and I believe we've talked about this

0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:45.719
<v Speaker 1>in one of our crime episodes.

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.119
<v Speaker 3>Yes, did we do one on mug shots or just

0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.760
<v Speaker 3>I think it came up to the criminal databases maybe.

0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Alfonse Bertillon or Berrol on He in the I think,

0:21:58.000 --> 0:21:59.720
<v Speaker 2>like the eighteen forties came up with the idea of

0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:05.920
<v Speaker 2>mug shots fingerprints using like head measurements to Yeah, basically

0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.119
<v Speaker 2>create a database of criminals so that they couldn't pose

0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.359
<v Speaker 2>his other people. And I guess that Pinkerton heard about

0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:15.200
<v Speaker 2>this and brought it to the United States.

0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but when he brought it to the United States,

0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.560
<v Speaker 1>he wanted to sort of codify it, I guess, and

0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.479
<v Speaker 1>make it a more usable system and standardize everything. So

0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.280
<v Speaker 1>he you know, made all the pictures the same size.

0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.880
<v Speaker 1>He essentially made little yearbooks. He made got handwriting samples,

0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:32.280
<v Speaker 1>and he would make these books and he would send

0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:35.119
<v Speaker 1>them out and they called it the Rogues Gallery, and

0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:37.639
<v Speaker 1>it was sort of the beginning of the you know,

0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.400
<v Speaker 1>the United States criminal database.

0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and each picture had a senior superlative underneath this,

0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.440
<v Speaker 2>so there was like most likely to unnecessarily shoot someone

0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:50.120
<v Speaker 2>you're robbing in the knee.

0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:51.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, stuff like that. That's good.

0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.680
<v Speaker 2>I also saw that this was so sophisticated that it

0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:59.600
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be until the FBI was formed that something like

0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.240
<v Speaker 2>a criminal database like this would be expanded upon.

0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:05.760
<v Speaker 3>Basically, did you get a senior superlative?

0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I did most most likely to talk about criminal databases?

0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:11.400
<v Speaker 3>Oh?

0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:17.479
<v Speaker 2>Did I? In reality, I don't think so, no, because

0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:19.439
<v Speaker 2>my senior quote was leave me alone.

0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:23.720
<v Speaker 1>We had fun ones and then real ones, like official ones,

0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:25.400
<v Speaker 1>and I got one of each.

0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:28.639
<v Speaker 3>Oh well, what were they I got? Actually?

0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.240
<v Speaker 1>I got two of the unofficials. For the unofficials, I

0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:33.959
<v Speaker 1>got best style.

0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh nice, that's really saying something in high school, man.

0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:39.959
<v Speaker 3>I guess so I'm not sure how I won that one. Actually.

0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:43.560
<v Speaker 1>And then I got most fun on a Date, which

0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:47.560
<v Speaker 1>was very ironic because I literally dated one person my

0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.439
<v Speaker 1>senior year and I was just the good friend to

0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:51.960
<v Speaker 1>all the girls that I wanted to date.

0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:53.640
<v Speaker 3>Wow, I was that guy.

0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:55.360
<v Speaker 1>But then the official ones that were in the yearbook.

0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Best all round boy.

0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Jeez, man, I see you in a different light now.

0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.680
<v Speaker 3>Oh you know it's pretty. I still got my T shirt.

0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:05.560
<v Speaker 3>I'll wear it occasionally.

0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Best all around boy.

0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:08.719
<v Speaker 3>Best all round boy.

0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:10.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that's your new nickname.

0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:18.159
<v Speaker 3>B A A R B B. Well, best all around technically.

0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:20.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I say all round, But then again I call

0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:22.720
<v Speaker 2>stove top hats well.

0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:27.400
<v Speaker 1>So best best be a Barb? Right, yeah, all right,

0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:28.680
<v Speaker 1>just call me Barb from now on.

0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Barb. I have a beloved aunt named Barb.

0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 1>Do I do too, or Emily does, so she's sort

0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:37.120
<v Speaker 1>of my aunt as well.

0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:41.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can claim her all right. So, uh, there's

0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:45.480
<v Speaker 2>another thing that that Pinkerton did to really kind of

0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 2>help establish his his agency is like just nationally recognized

0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:54.679
<v Speaker 2>and also kind of heroes. They were considered heroes across

0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.679
<v Speaker 2>the United States because they went after bad guys and

0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:00.960
<v Speaker 2>they usually got their man. They were very person and dogged.

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:04.760
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes they would pursue criminals for years. Yeah, like it

0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 2>wasn't like, well, we tried for a month and we

0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:09.560
<v Speaker 2>gave up. Like they would just keep going until they

0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:13.360
<v Speaker 2>found the person. They would pursue them into Canada sometimes wow,

0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:17.159
<v Speaker 2>into Mexico and beyond. And I guess one of the

0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:20.560
<v Speaker 2>reasons why they were revered is because they had a

0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:25.439
<v Speaker 2>code of conduct that was like strictly implemented. It was

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:28.800
<v Speaker 2>things like like we will take no bribes, which is

0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:31.440
<v Speaker 2>a big one at the time. Oh yeah, probably still

0:25:31.520 --> 0:25:37.399
<v Speaker 2>is now. Will never compromise with criminals. Yeah, we will

0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:41.280
<v Speaker 2>partner with local law enforcement when possible. Okay, this one

0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:43.560
<v Speaker 2>stood out to me. I thought this was kind of upstanding.

0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:47.040
<v Speaker 2>They wouldn't take divorce cases or any case that could

0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:48.720
<v Speaker 2>create a scandal for anybody.

0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:51.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool.

0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:55.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, pretty stand up. They also turned down reward money,

0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:59.240
<v Speaker 1>and he paid his agents pretty well apparently, and this

0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 1>is just sort of business nuts and bolts, but he

0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:04.760
<v Speaker 1>had a pledge to never raise fees without the client knowing,

0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:06.480
<v Speaker 1>like in other words, I'm not going to hand you

0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:08.920
<v Speaker 1>a bill at the end. That's not what we talked about, right,

0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.600
<v Speaker 1>And also would just keep all of his clients very

0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:17.159
<v Speaker 1>well informed. They had internal rules that were like I

0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:20.359
<v Speaker 1>think in the pamphlet the General Principles of Pinkerton's National

0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Detective Agency, they said things like the agent must be

0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:26.920
<v Speaker 1>of a high order of mind, must possess clear and honest,

0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:29.000
<v Speaker 1>comprehensive understanding, force.

0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:30.280
<v Speaker 3>Of will, vigor of body.

0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:34.040
<v Speaker 1>And you can't drink on the job unless you absolutely

0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:38.840
<v Speaker 1>have to as assumed assumingly some part of like some

0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:41.240
<v Speaker 1>mole situation where you're like, hey, do you want to

0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:42.720
<v Speaker 1>go to the bar with us?

0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:46.639
<v Speaker 2>Right, you better drink this rye whiskey or else. Well, know,

0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 2>you're a Pinkerton man exactly. They also, unless you had

0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:54.400
<v Speaker 2>a direct order from your superior too, you weren't allowed

0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:59.120
<v Speaker 2>to use alcohol to get like confessions or anything out of.

0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:02.640
<v Speaker 3>Suspects someone's super drunk. Yeah, yeah, I.

0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:04.359
<v Speaker 2>Mean these are all pretty great like.

0:27:05.160 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 3>Codes of conduct in totally. Yeah.

0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:11.000
<v Speaker 2>I did not see any stories of like rogue Pinkerton

0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:13.840
<v Speaker 2>agents or that this was all just you know, a whitewashing,

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:15.840
<v Speaker 2>and they actually didn't behave like this at all. They

0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:18.560
<v Speaker 2>do seem to have been pretty upstanding. And then so

0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:21.960
<v Speaker 2>the other thing that really expanded the legend of the Pinkertons,

0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:24.919
<v Speaker 2>and probably in part of why we still understand or

0:27:24.960 --> 0:27:29.960
<v Speaker 2>know them today, is Alan Pinkerton wrote a bunch of books,

0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:32.840
<v Speaker 2>or at least published a series of books under his name,

0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:36.400
<v Speaker 2>that were like true crime detective stories.

0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:37.879
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:40.720
<v Speaker 2>This would have been in the eighteen sixties, eighteen seventies,

0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:45.800
<v Speaker 2>I think, so this is like the dawn of detective stories.

0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:47.160
<v Speaker 3>I think they don't.

0:27:47.000 --> 0:27:49.919
<v Speaker 2>Remember when Poe wrote Murder in the Room Morgue. Was

0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:51.320
<v Speaker 2>that the first detective story.

0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:53.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, but I mean it was. It was

0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:54.920
<v Speaker 3>early on in the going for sure.

0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:56.359
<v Speaker 2>It was ahead of its time.

0:27:56.480 --> 0:27:56.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:27:57.000 --> 0:27:59.159
<v Speaker 2>One of the most famous ones was the Detective in

0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:00.600
<v Speaker 2>the Somnambula.

0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yes, And that is one in which he as

0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:08.560
<v Speaker 1>the character and Kate Warren as her character. They catch

0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:10.440
<v Speaker 1>a murderer. They go into cover, of course, and catch

0:28:10.480 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 1>a murderer and a bank robber using a Pinkerton agent

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:20.160
<v Speaker 1>as always that posed as a ghost to get a confession.

0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I saw there was another one where Kate Warren

0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:24.840
<v Speaker 2>posed as a fortune teller to get a confession out

0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:25.320
<v Speaker 2>of somebody.

0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:26.160
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's pretty smart.

0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but these are like the books that they're saying

0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:31.600
<v Speaker 2>like this, this is what we did. Yeah, And I mean, like,

0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:34.640
<v Speaker 2>if this was even remotely close, it must have been

0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:38.600
<v Speaker 2>thrilling to be a Pinkerton detective at this time, because

0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:41.280
<v Speaker 2>this is again when they were just a cause celeb

0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:44.840
<v Speaker 2>in America and did not have the blemish reputation that

0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:45.920
<v Speaker 2>they have today.

0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and a book potentially being like a character in

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:52.600
<v Speaker 1>a book would be, you know, back then a sort

0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:55.000
<v Speaker 1>of tantamount to like they made a TV show about

0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:55.640
<v Speaker 1>us or something.

0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we played like a semi fictional version of

0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:00.640
<v Speaker 2>ourselves or something like that.

0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:02.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:04.800
<v Speaker 2>One of the other things they were known for, Chuck

0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:08.479
<v Speaker 2>was nabbing outlaws in the wild West, because as the

0:29:08.640 --> 0:29:13.840
<v Speaker 2>United States expanded westward and the frontier just kept going,

0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:17.760
<v Speaker 2>it was a while in raucous and lawless place you

0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:20.200
<v Speaker 2>might have a marshal. I know, we talked about the

0:29:20.240 --> 0:29:24.760
<v Speaker 2>Marshall Service serving as the law enforcement out west, but

0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:29.000
<v Speaker 2>there it was kind of far and fewed between. So

0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:32.520
<v Speaker 2>the Pinkertons filled the real need at the time. Because

0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:35.280
<v Speaker 2>one of the first things that developed after the Civil

0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:36.680
<v Speaker 2>War was train robberies.

0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:39.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean you got these. Like you said earlier,

0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.000
<v Speaker 1>it's a pretty good take when you rob a train

0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:45.000
<v Speaker 1>and you know, you get them out in the middle

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:47.520
<v Speaker 1>of nowhere, which is kind of the great. The great

0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:50.920
<v Speaker 1>thing about robbing trains, everybody, yeah, is you can just

0:29:51.000 --> 0:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, ride your horses up. You've seen all the

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:54.400
<v Speaker 1>movies in the middle of nowhere where there's no one

0:29:54.400 --> 0:29:57.200
<v Speaker 1>around to help. But in this case, the Pinkertons are there.

0:29:57.920 --> 0:30:00.920
<v Speaker 1>One of the first gangs that they got the Reno Gang.

0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:05.320
<v Speaker 1>After the Civil War, they started robbing trains in Indiana

0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:09.200
<v Speaker 1>and Missouri and banks and other places, but not from Reno,

0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:13.040
<v Speaker 1>but they were the Renos John Frank Simeon and William Reno.

0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:18.480
<v Speaker 1>And in October eighteen sixty six, for instance, they robbed

0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:22.280
<v Speaker 1>the Ohio and Mississippi Express to the tune of fifteen

0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:25.880
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars in eighteen sixty six money, which is a huge,

0:30:25.960 --> 0:30:29.800
<v Speaker 1>huge haul. Were arrested, but they posted bail and then

0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:33.560
<v Speaker 1>started robbing again kind of right away, trains and banks,

0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:36.840
<v Speaker 1>and so the Pinkertons were like where on the job.

0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:39.400
<v Speaker 1>I think the Adams Express company was like, we've had enough,

0:30:39.400 --> 0:30:40.400
<v Speaker 1>We got to hire these guys.

0:30:40.840 --> 0:30:43.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in the two years that the Reno Gang was active,

0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:47.640
<v Speaker 2>they stole about a half a million dollars in eighteen

0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:51.080
<v Speaker 2>sixties money. Wow, that was a ton of cash. They

0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:54.160
<v Speaker 2>were very successful. So yeah, they definitely caught the attention

0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:58.720
<v Speaker 2>of the train companies. Adams Express hires the Pinkertons and

0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:02.360
<v Speaker 2>they start hunting down the Reno Gang. And this is

0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:05.680
<v Speaker 2>a good example of them just using dogged persistence over

0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:08.520
<v Speaker 2>and over and over again. They just kind of one

0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:14.320
<v Speaker 2>by one captured the gang members. The first was John Reno,

0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:17.880
<v Speaker 2>not Geen Renau from Twin Peaks.

0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:19.040
<v Speaker 3>I had that same joke.

0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 2>They got him first. He may have been the leader

0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:26.520
<v Speaker 2>as far as I know. They also caught a guy

0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 2>named Charles Roseberry who was a member of the gang.

0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:31.959
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if they were expecting this or not,

0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:35.920
<v Speaker 2>but the locals who were with them when they caught

0:31:36.000 --> 0:31:39.120
<v Speaker 2>Charles Rowberry strung him up and hung him right there

0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:42.200
<v Speaker 2>they when they caught him, and I didn't see, like

0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:44.720
<v Speaker 2>what the Pinkertons thought about this kind of thing.

0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:47.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I think a lot of those guys

0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:51.360
<v Speaker 1>were lynched and hanged. And yeah, I don't know. I'm

0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:54.520
<v Speaker 1>not sure if that's a good question. Actually, if that

0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:57.920
<v Speaker 1>was I mean, obviously it wasn't his call, but after

0:31:57.920 --> 0:31:59.600
<v Speaker 1>he hands them over, but I wonder if he was, like,

0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:02.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean, how about a trial at least?

0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Right, this doesn't seem to jibe with the code of conduct.

0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:06.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:09.800
<v Speaker 2>I also saw they recovered about three hundred thousand dollars

0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:13.000
<v Speaker 2>in cash and at least one instant, So definitely got

0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:15.360
<v Speaker 2>your money's worth when you hired the Pinkertons to nab

0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:16.800
<v Speaker 2>wild West train robbers.

0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I bet they weren't cheap though I tried to

0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:20.640
<v Speaker 1>find out kind of how much they were paid. But

0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:23.640
<v Speaker 1>if he was paying his agents well, which he supposedly did,

0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:25.800
<v Speaker 1>then I'm sure they were not a cheap hire.

0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:30.640
<v Speaker 2>No, And then things kind of went pear shaped for

0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:33.320
<v Speaker 2>the Pinkertons. As far as I can tell, this was

0:32:33.360 --> 0:32:36.720
<v Speaker 2>the first time the Pinkerton's reputation took a real hit

0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:40.000
<v Speaker 2>with the James Gang Yeah, they went after the James Gang,

0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:43.160
<v Speaker 2>led by Frank and Jesse James. I didn't know this, Yeah,

0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:47.640
<v Speaker 2>but they were terrorists, Confederate terrorists during the Civil War

0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:51.160
<v Speaker 2>in Missouri, that's where they were from. And Missouri was

0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:53.960
<v Speaker 2>this powder keg that actually kind of helped kick off

0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:59.680
<v Speaker 2>the Civil War because I guess abolitionists and pro slavery

0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:03.160
<v Speaker 2>people came together to settle Missouri and they did not

0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:05.960
<v Speaker 2>get along. And during the Civil War one of the

0:33:06.040 --> 0:33:11.080
<v Speaker 2>things that James Gang did was murder Union supporters in Missouri. Yes,

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:13.440
<v Speaker 2>not even on the front lines. These weren't even soldiers,

0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:16.240
<v Speaker 2>these were civilians. They were just running around killing and terrorizing.

0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:17.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure.

0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 1>And you know, after the war, of course, they gained

0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:25.160
<v Speaker 1>further notoriety by robbing everything in sight, you know, trains, banks,

0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:28.600
<v Speaker 1>stage coaches, you name it. And Jesse sort of built

0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:32.200
<v Speaker 1>up this, oh what do you call it, like a

0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:36.880
<v Speaker 1>sort of a legendary status among the poor in working

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:39.960
<v Speaker 1>class that he was some kind of a robin Hood type,

0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:42.440
<v Speaker 1>even though there's no indication that he was ever like

0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:45.280
<v Speaker 1>robbing to give to the poor, right, but people would

0:33:45.320 --> 0:33:46.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, hide him and take care of him and

0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:49.600
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that. For some reason, but at any rate,

0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:52.360
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen seventy four, the Pinkertons were hired to catch

0:33:52.400 --> 0:33:57.320
<v Speaker 1>these guys, Frank and Jesse, and they sent an agent

0:33:57.560 --> 0:33:58.880
<v Speaker 1>to infiltrate the gang.

0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:01.240
<v Speaker 3>His name was Joseph.

0:34:00.440 --> 0:34:04.239
<v Speaker 1>Witcher, and he did a pretty good job until they

0:34:04.280 --> 0:34:08.120
<v Speaker 1>found out that he was an informant and he was murdered,

0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:10.520
<v Speaker 1>which kind of started the downhill tumble.

0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Alan Pinkerton took this quite personally. Oh yeah, there's

0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:17.480
<v Speaker 2>a quote from him saying that as far as capturing

0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:21.719
<v Speaker 2>Jesse and Frank James, there's no use talking. They must die. Yeah,

0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:23.960
<v Speaker 2>So if they were wanted dead or alive, he was

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:26.920
<v Speaker 2>going to bring him in dead for sure. And in

0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:30.200
<v Speaker 2>eighteen seventy five, early on in the year, they went

0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:35.200
<v Speaker 2>to the James's family home in Missouri, and Jesse and

0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Frank James weren't home. They'd been tipped off that the

0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:41.520
<v Speaker 2>Pinkertons with a bunch of local pro union supporters were

0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:43.960
<v Speaker 2>going to be there to capture them, so they weren't there.

0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:48.400
<v Speaker 2>But apparently the Pinkertons and their assistants didn't know this.

0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Somebody the Pinkerton said this was a local that did this,

0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:56.239
<v Speaker 2>that they did not do this. Somebody threw a lantern

0:34:56.400 --> 0:35:00.080
<v Speaker 2>into the home I saw in the hopes of illuminating

0:35:00.160 --> 0:35:06.040
<v Speaker 2>things better. Well, the lantern exploded, Yeah, exactly. The lantern exploded,

0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:09.920
<v Speaker 2>killed their eight year old half brother Archie, and blew

0:35:10.000 --> 0:35:13.879
<v Speaker 2>their mom, Zerelda's arm off. So they've killed a young

0:35:13.920 --> 0:35:18.080
<v Speaker 2>boy and maimed an older woman, and the Pinkertons are

0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:20.480
<v Speaker 2>the ones who took the hit reputation wise.

0:35:20.920 --> 0:35:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and after all that, you know, pr work, A

0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:28.400
<v Speaker 1>lot of that was undone because of this, basically, But

0:35:28.560 --> 0:35:30.200
<v Speaker 1>it's not like they've shut down or anything.

0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:32.080
<v Speaker 3>And didn't they go after some other gangs too?

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Very famously. They were the ones that chased Butch

0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Cassidy and Sundance the Sundance Kid down to Bolivia. Bolivian

0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:43.640
<v Speaker 2>army killed them, and they were famous for catching and

0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:47.400
<v Speaker 2>summarily executing all the members of the Apple Dumpling Gang.

0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:52.000
<v Speaker 3>All right, we'll take a break now.

0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:56.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to contemplate that joke, and we're going to

0:35:56.120 --> 0:35:58.000
<v Speaker 1>come back and talk about what the Pinkertons were kind

0:35:58.000 --> 0:35:59.239
<v Speaker 1>of known for from this point forward.

0:35:59.320 --> 0:35:59.759
<v Speaker 3>Right after this.

0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so after the Wild West kind of came and went,

0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:38.520
<v Speaker 2>they got into corporate affairs firmly on the side of

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.520
<v Speaker 2>the corporation. At the time, there was a lot of

0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:44.480
<v Speaker 2>labor movements, a lot of workers write stuff going on,

0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:49.759
<v Speaker 2>and don't forget Alan Pinkerton had to flee the UK

0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 2>because he was such a radical labor supporter. Now his

0:36:56.840 --> 0:37:04.280
<v Speaker 2>agency is the Premier Security Group and labor organization infiltrators.

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:06.399
<v Speaker 2>This is what they started doing, and this is where

0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 2>they're the bad name, the blemish on their name that's

0:37:09.440 --> 0:37:14.080
<v Speaker 2>still around today, really started to develop because they were

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:17.080
<v Speaker 2>at this point do whatever corporations wanted them to do

0:37:17.200 --> 0:37:18.359
<v Speaker 2>as long as they paid them.

0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:21.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know what corporations generally wanted them to

0:37:22.000 --> 0:37:25.360
<v Speaker 1>do was bust up the unions. Was to infiltrate the

0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:28.800
<v Speaker 1>companies and bust up unions, which is what they ultimately

0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:31.799
<v Speaker 1>started doing for you know, a lot of money. It

0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:34.800
<v Speaker 1>started out as an employee testing service in eighteen fifty

0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:36.040
<v Speaker 1>five and sort of grew over.

0:37:35.880 --> 0:37:36.760
<v Speaker 3>The next few years.

0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:42.160
<v Speaker 1>And initially it was like, hey, let's get some moles

0:37:42.160 --> 0:37:47.160
<v Speaker 1>in there and see if we can uncover like illegal activity,

0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 1>people stealing from the company and stuff like that.

0:37:49.239 --> 0:37:51.600
<v Speaker 3>But then it's just understandable, Yeah, totally.

0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:53.759
<v Speaker 1>But then that sort of expanded, and I guess the

0:37:53.800 --> 0:37:56.120
<v Speaker 1>people hiring were like, Hey, since you're in there, why

0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:57.520
<v Speaker 1>don't you kind of let us know what's going on,

0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:00.879
<v Speaker 1>what they're talking about, and like if they like management discontented,

0:38:02.280 --> 0:38:04.880
<v Speaker 1>and if they're you know, most importantly, if they're starting

0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:08.520
<v Speaker 1>to organize and talk about forming a labor society, which

0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:10.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, of course would ultimately be a union.

0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes. This became such a part of their job that

0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the Order of Railway Conductors started warning their members that

0:38:19.960 --> 0:38:23.759
<v Speaker 2>there's Pinkerton's undercover who are watching you, and not just

0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:26.000
<v Speaker 2>watching you to see if you're stealing, they're watching you

0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:28.399
<v Speaker 2>to see if you want to form a union. And

0:38:28.440 --> 0:38:31.360
<v Speaker 2>this was the I mean, this was a terrible direction

0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:33.279
<v Speaker 2>for them to start to go down because this was

0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:38.440
<v Speaker 2>such a militant time. I mean, there were like anarchists

0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:41.719
<v Speaker 2>running around like throwing bombs in the United States. There

0:38:41.719 --> 0:38:46.000
<v Speaker 2>were labor unions that soldiers were sometimes brought out to shoot.

0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:49.439
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was a really rough time as far

0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:52.400
<v Speaker 2>as like labor and management goes, because there was just

0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:57.760
<v Speaker 2>this struggle to say, who owns the fruit of our labor? Yeah,

0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:00.279
<v Speaker 2>you who's paying for the raw materials or us who's

0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:05.080
<v Speaker 2>actually turning those raw materials into the end product. And

0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:07.960
<v Speaker 2>maybe it's not one or the other, but I guarantee

0:39:07.960 --> 0:39:11.120
<v Speaker 2>it's more than the share that you're giving us a

0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:14.879
<v Speaker 2>factory owner. And so this struggle became violent and many

0:39:14.920 --> 0:39:18.040
<v Speaker 2>many times. Again, like I said, the Pinkertons landed firmly

0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 2>or started out firmly on the side of corporations that

0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:21.480
<v Speaker 2>they stayed there.

0:39:21.880 --> 0:39:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we should probably highlight the Molly Maguire's that was

0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:29.040
<v Speaker 1>one of more famous cases. They were a secret society

0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:33.120
<v Speaker 1>in Ireland initially and then in eighteen sixties in Pennsylvania

0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:36.120
<v Speaker 1>kind of re emerged from Irish immigrants because they were

0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:38.880
<v Speaker 1>coal miners there and at the time they were facing

0:39:38.920 --> 0:39:42.600
<v Speaker 1>a lot of discrimination. The job conditions were not good,

0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:46.479
<v Speaker 1>working long hours, they were very dangerous, and they were

0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:49.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, a lot of times living in company housing,

0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:52.120
<v Speaker 1>paid in company script that they could only spend at

0:39:52.120 --> 0:39:55.960
<v Speaker 1>the company store. They were just completely folded into this

0:39:56.080 --> 0:40:00.200
<v Speaker 1>corporation as almost enslaved people in some way.

0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:04.160
<v Speaker 1>Ultimately they had their freedom, of course, but it was

0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:09.040
<v Speaker 1>they were owned by the company essentially. Finally, in the

0:40:09.080 --> 0:40:15.920
<v Speaker 1>eighteen sixties, supervisors started receiving these coffin notices basically from

0:40:15.960 --> 0:40:20.600
<v Speaker 1>the worker saying, hey were the molly mcguires, and coffin

0:40:20.640 --> 0:40:23.239
<v Speaker 1>notice means that your time on earth is nigh and

0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:26.680
<v Speaker 1>you're not going to be around very long. So the

0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:28.320
<v Speaker 1>writing was on the wall that things were about to

0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:28.960
<v Speaker 1>turn violent.

0:40:29.760 --> 0:40:31.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it did start to get violent. And I

0:40:31.800 --> 0:40:36.080
<v Speaker 2>saw that the molly mcguires started murdering and assassinating some

0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:40.080
<v Speaker 2>of the some of the members of the corporation, like Foreman,

0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:43.320
<v Speaker 2>who were the people they worked with the most directly

0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:45.520
<v Speaker 2>and who are the most brutal toward them. But I

0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.320
<v Speaker 2>also saw that this was in retaliation for members of

0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:52.520
<v Speaker 2>the molly mcguires being murdered first. Yeah, either way, it

0:40:52.560 --> 0:40:56.279
<v Speaker 2>turned violent pretty terribly. What the molly mcguires did not

0:40:56.480 --> 0:40:59.319
<v Speaker 2>know is that there was a Pinkerton man who they

0:40:59.400 --> 0:41:02.680
<v Speaker 2>knew as James McKenna, but whose real name was James McFarlane,

0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:06.560
<v Speaker 2>who had spent two years by now working under cover

0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:11.520
<v Speaker 2>and ingratiating himself with the mally mcguires, or even beyond

0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:14.400
<v Speaker 2>the mally McGuire's, just the Irish coal miners who worked

0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:16.880
<v Speaker 2>and lived in this area, so much so he became

0:41:16.960 --> 0:41:20.839
<v Speaker 2>the secretary of the local lodge of the Ancient Order

0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:25.160
<v Speaker 2>of Hiberians, an Irish Catholic fraternal organization. So he really

0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:27.799
<v Speaker 2>worked his way into it, and he got a lot

0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:32.919
<v Speaker 2>of intel on them, and ultimately turned state's evidence and

0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:40.879
<v Speaker 2>got twenty men executed almost exclusively on his testimony.

0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:44.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, on charges of murder, arson, and kidnapping.

0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:48.399
<v Speaker 1>Ten were hanged in eighteen seventy seven. Ten were then

0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:52.160
<v Speaker 1>hanged in eighteen seventy eight, I guess, and this is

0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:55.840
<v Speaker 1>one of the most like insider jobs of all time.

0:41:56.560 --> 0:42:00.200
<v Speaker 1>I think there was a historian, Harald Aaron who that

0:42:00.280 --> 0:42:04.120
<v Speaker 1>was one of the most astonishing, astounding, excuse me, surrenders

0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:10.600
<v Speaker 1>of sovereignty and American history, because what happened was Franklin Gowan,

0:42:11.120 --> 0:42:13.279
<v Speaker 1>who was the guy who ran the company who hired

0:42:13.280 --> 0:42:18.879
<v Speaker 1>the Pinkertons to begin with, he was the chief prosecutor.

0:42:18.960 --> 0:42:21.760
<v Speaker 1>So it was all this inside job. These guys were

0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:26.200
<v Speaker 1>arrested by a private police force, and then the coal

0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:31.000
<v Speaker 1>company's attorneys prosecuted them, and the only thing that the

0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.480
<v Speaker 1>state did was like, here, use his courtroom and use

0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:37.600
<v Speaker 1>our gallows or whatever, and other than that, it was

0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:40.520
<v Speaker 1>all just a private job to find and execute these guys.

0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:43.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, many of whom who were considered to have been innocent.

0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:48.200
<v Speaker 2>They were innocent men who were executed again almost exclusively

0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:52.600
<v Speaker 2>on James mcparlane, this Pinkerton man's testimony, and yeah, it

0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:56.440
<v Speaker 2>was just a total travesty from starting to finish. In Pennsylvania.

0:42:56.520 --> 0:43:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Did pardon one of the men, John Keho, in nineteen

0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:03.840
<v Speaker 2>seventy nine, about one hundred years too late for John Keyho,

0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:06.560
<v Speaker 2>but it was kind of a symbolic thing saying like, yeah,

0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:10.239
<v Speaker 2>we really screwed up and letting this company essentially form

0:43:10.320 --> 0:43:16.440
<v Speaker 2>their own court and trial and executions. Probably more famous though,

0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:21.360
<v Speaker 2>is the Pinkerton's role in the Homestead strike in Homestead,

0:43:21.400 --> 0:43:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Pennsylvania at one of the Carnegie Steel mills.

0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:25.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:27.680
<v Speaker 1>So in eighteen ninety two there was a union contract

0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:32.000
<v Speaker 1>that expired for that steel company in Pennsylvania there in Homestead,

0:43:32.320 --> 0:43:35.560
<v Speaker 1>and Henry Clay Frick and Andrew Carnegie, a couple of

0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:39.279
<v Speaker 1>robber barons we've talked about in the past, said all right,

0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:41.200
<v Speaker 1>we're going to cut wages back. We're going to break

0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:44.520
<v Speaker 1>this union, which was the Amalgamated Association of Steel and

0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:48.080
<v Speaker 1>Iron Workers and Carnegie said, I'm out here. I'm going

0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:52.239
<v Speaker 1>to leave the country. Henry Clay Henry Clay Frick got

0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:55.680
<v Speaker 1>involved sort of doing the dirty work on the ground.

0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:57.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and he said, all right, I'm going to hire

0:43:57.840 --> 0:43:59.840
<v Speaker 3>the Pinkertons. We're not even negotiating.

0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:03.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to bring these guys in to essentially act

0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:06.160
<v Speaker 1>as guards to lock these people out.

0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:10.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And so three hundred Pinkertons showed up on July sixth,

0:44:11.040 --> 0:44:13.520
<v Speaker 2>eighteen ninety two. They were pulled down the river on

0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:16.520
<v Speaker 2>barges and they were all armed to the teeth with

0:44:16.560 --> 0:44:19.600
<v Speaker 2>Winchester rifles and cold forty five's and all the modern

0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:24.120
<v Speaker 2>guns you could hope for. And when they arrived, they

0:44:24.160 --> 0:44:28.799
<v Speaker 2>were met with I think two or three thousand homestead

0:44:29.719 --> 0:44:34.080
<v Speaker 2>not just steel workers, but neighbors, community members, just people

0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:35.640
<v Speaker 2>who were supporting the strikers.

0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:36.520
<v Speaker 3>Angry too.

0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they were really mad, not just because they were

0:44:40.239 --> 0:44:42.719
<v Speaker 2>in the midst of the strike, but because this private

0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:46.480
<v Speaker 2>police force had shown up to intimidate them or possibly

0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:49.080
<v Speaker 2>kill them the way that they were armed. And so

0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:51.719
<v Speaker 2>a battle ensued, Like there's no other word for it.

0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:55.720
<v Speaker 2>It was a twelve or fifteen hour battle. Yeah, only

0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:59.239
<v Speaker 2>a dozen people died. But that's amazing to me. As

0:44:59.360 --> 0:45:02.400
<v Speaker 2>violent as this battle was, they tried to or I

0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:06.680
<v Speaker 2>should say, they pushed a flaming train car at the

0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:09.400
<v Speaker 2>barges to try to kill the Pinkertons. Like that was

0:45:09.480 --> 0:45:12.680
<v Speaker 2>just one thing that the strikers did. Like it was

0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:13.840
<v Speaker 2>really violent.

0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:16.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it was shocking that only a dozen

0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:19.600
<v Speaker 1>people died. I guess it's a testament to how bad

0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:24.520
<v Speaker 1>of a shot they were. It really was collectively. Of course,

0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:28.399
<v Speaker 1>the workers, you know, they they surrendered. The Pinkertons did

0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:30.560
<v Speaker 1>because they were just so far outnumbered, even though most

0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:33.360
<v Speaker 1>of the I think most of the dozen were the

0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:36.160
<v Speaker 1>workers that died, but the Pinkertons knew that they were

0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:38.440
<v Speaker 1>vastly outnumbered, so they surrendered.

0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:39.680
<v Speaker 3>But the workers lost.

0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:43.520
<v Speaker 1>Because he Henry Clay, frick Man, I have a hard time.

0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:43.799
<v Speaker 3>With that one.

0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:46.640
<v Speaker 2>You want to say, people, I know Henry Clay.

0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:49.759
<v Speaker 1>People got eighty five hundred National Guard troops sent in

0:45:50.680 --> 0:45:53.040
<v Speaker 1>after the Pinkertons left, and of course, you know, they

0:45:53.040 --> 0:45:55.920
<v Speaker 1>broke the union and said we're going to decrease your wages,

0:45:56.239 --> 0:45:58.000
<v Speaker 1>We're going to increase how much you have to work,

0:45:58.600 --> 0:46:01.160
<v Speaker 1>and this just became sort of a cyclical thing that

0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:06.719
<v Speaker 1>was happening. The Pinkertons early on, they were pretty good

0:46:06.719 --> 0:46:09.600
<v Speaker 1>at infiltrating, but when it came to breaking these unions,

0:46:09.640 --> 0:46:12.640
<v Speaker 1>the federal government would come in with the troops and

0:46:12.719 --> 0:46:15.080
<v Speaker 1>do a far better job at doing so.

0:46:15.480 --> 0:46:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because strikers typically recognized federal troops is more legitimate

0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:22.040
<v Speaker 2>than a private police force showing up, you know.

0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:24.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and just more people with more arms.

0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:28.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they had gatling guns, like it's demonstrated at the

0:46:28.120 --> 0:46:29.040
<v Speaker 2>end of the Wild Bunch.

0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:29.799
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:32.359
<v Speaker 2>You don't want to mess with those. So yeah, from

0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:34.920
<v Speaker 2>those of us, like looking back today, you might think, oh,

0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:37.160
<v Speaker 2>that's just what they did back then, which was messed up,

0:46:37.160 --> 0:46:41.480
<v Speaker 2>but that's just the norm. Not true. Congress actually investigated

0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:44.279
<v Speaker 2>this incident. They were like, that is pretty screwed up

0:46:44.320 --> 0:46:47.040
<v Speaker 2>that you hired the Pinkertons and brought in the National

0:46:47.080 --> 0:46:50.759
<v Speaker 2>Guard to essentially put this town under martial law. And

0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:54.640
<v Speaker 2>as a matter of fact, Congress urged states to pass

0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:58.120
<v Speaker 2>laws to make it so that corporations couldn't hire private

0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:02.839
<v Speaker 2>companies to break unions, and Ohio went so far as

0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:06.319
<v Speaker 2>to say the Pinkertons themselves are now illegal here.

0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:10.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, that's true. So I mean that really changed

0:47:10.840 --> 0:47:14.360
<v Speaker 1>everything for the Pinkertons there as far as strike breaking goes.

0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:17.200
<v Speaker 1>It took a huge hit. Couldn't get a lot of

0:47:17.200 --> 0:47:19.600
<v Speaker 1>work after that, But they did go on. They did

0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:21.439
<v Speaker 1>anti union espionage work.

0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:21.920
<v Speaker 3>Of course.

0:47:23.239 --> 0:47:25.239
<v Speaker 1>This is something I never knew at all, was that

0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:28.640
<v Speaker 1>they they just they kept going. They were acquired in

0:47:28.760 --> 0:47:33.080
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety nine, Yeah, by Securitas, and I had no

0:47:33.200 --> 0:47:37.160
<v Speaker 1>idea that they went on that much further after Pinkerton's death,

0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:38.439
<v Speaker 1>after Alan Pickerton's death.

0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they trade on the name still, for sure. Yeah.

0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:45.360
<v Speaker 2>It's a massive company I think, with like fifty thousand

0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:49.600
<v Speaker 2>employees and offices all over the world, but they still

0:47:49.680 --> 0:47:52.239
<v Speaker 2>use the Pinkerton name. Like you can hire Pinkerton for

0:47:52.320 --> 0:47:56.080
<v Speaker 2>corporate security. Apparently they'll ride along and container ships to

0:47:56.200 --> 0:47:59.840
<v Speaker 2>protect against pirates. Wow, they've served as guards at Marylyn

0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:02.799
<v Speaker 2>Rose funeral. Yeah, back in the sixties. I also saw

0:48:02.880 --> 0:48:05.440
<v Speaker 2>that same year they escorted the Mona Lisa from France

0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:06.640
<v Speaker 2>to the US.

0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:09.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh, which is you know, they could probably just do

0:48:09.080 --> 0:48:10.840
<v Speaker 1>that under an overcoat. That thing's pretty small.

0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:14.200
<v Speaker 2>It is fairly small. And then one other thing where

0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:16.560
<v Speaker 2>they pop up and this made me wonder if this

0:48:16.600 --> 0:48:20.560
<v Speaker 2>is where this idea came from. Apparently they're bad guys

0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:24.000
<v Speaker 2>in the video game Red Dead Redemption two, which I

0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:25.440
<v Speaker 2>know for a fact that you've played.

0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:30.880
<v Speaker 1>They very much are figured, very heavily into that storyline

0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:32.919
<v Speaker 1>if you play the story part of that.

0:48:33.640 --> 0:48:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Is that where you got the idea to do one

0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:35.680
<v Speaker 2>on them?

0:48:36.120 --> 0:48:37.759
<v Speaker 1>No, because I haven't played that in a long time,

0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:40.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure where I got it. It may have been,

0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:45.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I'm not really sure. They also pigure

0:48:45.160 --> 0:48:47.560
<v Speaker 1>in a bunch of movies. Of course, they're in Deadwood.

0:48:48.880 --> 0:48:51.560
<v Speaker 1>They were in The Long Riders in the eighties, and

0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Friend of the Show Paul Schneider was in the Great

0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:57.320
<v Speaker 1>Great Movie from two thousand and seven, the Assassination of

0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:00.120
<v Speaker 1>Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, and they that

0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:02.560
<v Speaker 1>Pinkerton's figure pretty heavily in that movie too.

0:49:02.760 --> 0:49:05.360
<v Speaker 2>That was a good movie. We should talk about the

0:49:05.400 --> 0:49:07.239
<v Speaker 2>death of Alan Pinkerton real quick, Chuck.

0:49:07.760 --> 0:49:09.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's pretty unusual.

0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:13.560
<v Speaker 1>He died July first, eighteen eighty four, right before his

0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:17.800
<v Speaker 1>sixty fifth birthday. And as the story goes, he slipped

0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:21.040
<v Speaker 1>on a street in Chicago and bit his tongue something

0:49:21.120 --> 0:49:23.800
<v Speaker 1>which I did when I was a kid, had twelve

0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:27.080
<v Speaker 1>stitches across the center of my tongue back together when

0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:30.359
<v Speaker 1>I was like twelve. But I did not die, because

0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:33.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm still here. But Pinkerton died as a result of

0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:36.279
<v Speaker 1>this because it turned gangrenous.

0:49:36.840 --> 0:49:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he wouldn't go get it treated, and it just

0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:43.120
<v Speaker 2>kept getting worse, and that was it for him. Yeah,

0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:48.680
<v Speaker 2>he was put to rest near his wife. And very interestingly,

0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:53.560
<v Speaker 2>he also in his family plot, buried Kate Warren because

0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:56.840
<v Speaker 2>he so admired this the first female detective ever hired.

0:49:57.120 --> 0:49:59.319
<v Speaker 2>He so admired her in her work that he had

0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:03.680
<v Speaker 2>her buried with him. She was still alive and was

0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:06.560
<v Speaker 2>very unhappy about this, but he admired her that much.

0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:10.480
<v Speaker 1>That's super cool. So she's there with him. Maybe I

0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:13.120
<v Speaker 1>guess some of his sons are there and his wife Joan.

0:50:13.920 --> 0:50:15.360
<v Speaker 3>Yes, wonderful.

0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Nice Chuck, you got anything else?

0:50:18.400 --> 0:50:19.239
<v Speaker 3>I got nothing else.

0:50:19.480 --> 0:50:22.160
<v Speaker 2>That's it for the Pinkertons. Everybody at long last. And

0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:25.040
<v Speaker 2>since I said it long last, I just triggered listener mail.

0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:29.480
<v Speaker 3>That's right. This is a little follow up on the

0:50:29.480 --> 0:50:30.480
<v Speaker 3>GPS episode.

0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Toward the end, I kind of poked fun at Garman

0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:36.400
<v Speaker 1>as being something that you know, like my mom uses

0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:39.800
<v Speaker 1>and not like a more modern system. But it turns

0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:43.040
<v Speaker 1>out Garment is still very popular because Deanna sent me

0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:45.600
<v Speaker 1>an email saying, Hey, a lot of cyclists use this stuff,

0:50:46.320 --> 0:50:48.120
<v Speaker 1>and I asked her why. I was like, oh, that's

0:50:48.160 --> 0:50:50.080
<v Speaker 1>super interesting. I said, do you know why they have

0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:53.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, they're used by cyclists, are still around in

0:50:53.000 --> 0:50:55.719
<v Speaker 1>that capacity, and she said, good question. I think there

0:50:55.760 --> 0:50:57.759
<v Speaker 1>are a couple of reasons why it's still the go

0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:00.719
<v Speaker 1>to for GPS. They've been around forever. They've been making

0:51:00.760 --> 0:51:03.919
<v Speaker 1>GPS for planes and boats since the late eighties, so

0:51:03.960 --> 0:51:06.640
<v Speaker 1>they had a really big head start and then number

0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:09.760
<v Speaker 1>two constant refinement. While others are just starting to develop

0:51:09.800 --> 0:51:12.920
<v Speaker 1>their products, Garman was already fine tuning theirs, and they

0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:14.560
<v Speaker 1>had a twenty year head start, so they packed in

0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:17.759
<v Speaker 1>a ton of extra features. For example, they introduced the

0:51:17.760 --> 0:51:20.800
<v Speaker 1>first bike radar system years before anyone else, and the

0:51:20.880 --> 0:51:24.200
<v Speaker 1>radar still blows the competition away. I even have a

0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:27.880
<v Speaker 1>buddy he works for Wahoo and he still uses a

0:51:27.880 --> 0:51:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Garman radar.

0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:29.880
<v Speaker 2>Very nice.

0:51:30.120 --> 0:51:32.920
<v Speaker 1>Also, Deanna says they built a lot of brand loyalty,

0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:36.120
<v Speaker 1>especially in the cycling world. Minievus still use them, even

0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:38.400
<v Speaker 1>though the quality has slipped just a bit in recent years.

0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:40.839
<v Speaker 1>We don't like using phones on our bikes because they're

0:51:40.880 --> 0:51:43.640
<v Speaker 1>bulky and drain the batteries really fast, and Garman just

0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:46.800
<v Speaker 1>feels more polished and reliable for our needs.

0:51:47.520 --> 0:51:48.279
<v Speaker 2>Who is that from?

0:51:48.560 --> 0:51:49.520
<v Speaker 3>That was from Deanna?

0:51:49.760 --> 0:51:54.719
<v Speaker 2>Deanna Garman. That's right, Thanks Deanna. We appreciate that. That

0:51:54.760 --> 0:51:56.239
<v Speaker 2>was a great email, and if you want to be

0:51:56.320 --> 0:51:59.160
<v Speaker 2>like Deanna, you can email us too. Send it off

0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:05.200
<v Speaker 2>to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:52:05.360 --> 0:52:07.680
<v Speaker 3>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:11.359
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.