1
00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,720
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. So I'm Josh, and

3
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,279
Speaker 2: there's Chuck and there's Jerry and this is stuff you

4
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,320
Speaker 2: should know. You we're keeping an eye on you, sucker.

5
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,320
Speaker 3: Did I throw you off when I'm pre recording.

6
00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 2: No, I'm always expecting anything from you.

7
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 1: We do our usual countdown everyone so we can sink sound,

8
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: and you do that. Here's a little how the sausage

9
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,400
Speaker 1: is made. You do that by a counting down and

10
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,200
Speaker 1: then each of us clapping so you have a spike

11
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,600
Speaker 1: in the audio wave file that the engineers and editors

12
00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,960
Speaker 1: can align, so we match up right, and I clapped,

13
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:52,839
Speaker 1: But this time I also said schlamiel, hoping you would say, oh.

14
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 2: You set me up. Huh, I'm sorry here, let me

15
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 2: say it now, Shla masel.

16
00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 3: There you go.

17
00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,160
Speaker 2: Okay, are you ready to get on with our sausage party?

18
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,120
Speaker 3: Gross? Yeah, sure, okay.

19
00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 2: That was nice of you to kind of give that

20
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,440
Speaker 2: behind the scenes tour to everybody. Chuck, Yeah, you know,

21
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:11,479
Speaker 2: that's why everyone likes you.

22
00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 3: More trade secrets. That's not true. So I've been on Reddit.

23
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,320
Speaker 2: Whatever. Everybody likes you, including me, especially me. At any rate.

24
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,480
Speaker 2: So we're talking today about the Pinkerton Detective Agency, and

25
00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 2: this one strikes me as odd that we have waited

26
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,840
Speaker 2: this long seventeen years to finally talk about them. Yeah,

27
00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,840
Speaker 2: and uh, because they're just so legendary. You know, like

28
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,440
Speaker 2: everybody knows what the Pinkertons are, and if you don't,

29
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,560
Speaker 2: I'm not taking that back, because everyone else knows what

30
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:43,479
Speaker 2: the Pinkertons are.

31
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency technically was the name

32
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,920
Speaker 1: of it, but they were generally called the Pinkertons, led

33
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,960
Speaker 1: by Alan Pinkerton, and they're you know, what they're known

34
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 1: for is being one of the first or perhaps the first,

35
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 1: and I say private detective agency, but not like we

36
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,400
Speaker 1: think of pi's.

37
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 2: Like not Sam Spade stuff.

38
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 1: No, no, no, just a detective agency that's privatized like

39
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,920
Speaker 1: police kind of detective work, right, And you know, they

40
00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,200
Speaker 1: did a lot of stuff, including, as we'll see, busting

41
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 1: up bank robbers and then later busting up unions.

42
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. It took a dark turn for sure.

43
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they got their their start doing you know,

44
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 1: God's work by working in the Abolitionist.

45
00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,440
Speaker 3: Movie, by helping to free enslave people.

46
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's one thing. So there's a lot of

47
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,520
Speaker 2: stuff you'll find when you dig into the history of

48
00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 2: the Pinkerton Detective Agency. It depends on who you're reading.

49
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,680
Speaker 2: Either they were pretty great and did some really great work,

50
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,920
Speaker 2: or they were evil from the start. And then apparently

51
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 2: also one of the things that complicates it is Alan

52
00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 2: Pinkerton was known to kind of hype his own company,

53
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,960
Speaker 2: hype his own exploits. Yeah, and some people interpret that

54
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,640
Speaker 2: as like personal myth making, and whether that's correct or not.

55
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,600
Speaker 2: A lot of historians have delved into and I think

56
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,359
Speaker 2: the answer generally is it's a case by case thing,

57
00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,839
Speaker 2: whether it's actually true, whether it actually happened quite that way.

58
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 2: But for the most part, from what I saw from

59
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 2: researching this is generally most of the stuff can be

60
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,280
Speaker 2: accepted at surface level. For the most part, it's not like,

61
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,320
Speaker 2: if you buy into this story that we're about to

62
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,280
Speaker 2: tell you yeah, yeah, that you're just being totally misled.

63
00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 2: So for the most part, just relax is what I'm trying.

64
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we'll go back in time and hoping the

65
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 3: way back machine to witness the bird.

66
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,320
Speaker 1: It's eighteen nineteen in Scotland, so it's not a pretty

67
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 1: sight no giving birth back then, but little Alan Pinkerton

68
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 1: is born in Scotland. He is the son of a

69
00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,320
Speaker 1: police sergeant, so you know, law enforcement was in his

70
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,400
Speaker 1: family roots. And he went to the United States in

71
00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:09,080
Speaker 1: eighteen forty two at the age of twenty three. And

72
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: we should kind of mention just one thing he was

73
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 1: involved in early on in Scotland before he left was

74
00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,400
Speaker 1: something called the Chartist movement, which was we're not going

75
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,159
Speaker 1: to get super into it, but it was basically a

76
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 1: movement of the working class over there that tried One

77
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 1: of the main things they tried to do is extend

78
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 1: voting rights to all men, non landowners, that is.

79
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and election of parliamentary members. That kind of

80
00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 2: stuff is basically democratic reform in England. And at the

81
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 2: time this was considered radical politics.

82
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:39,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

83
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,599
Speaker 2: And Alan Pinkerton actually fled the country with his family

84
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 2: because the fuzz was looking for him, essentially, and they

85
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,080
Speaker 2: landed in the Chicago area Dundee, Illinois, appropriately enough. Yeah,

86
00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 2: and he decided that he would become a cooper, yeah,

87
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,599
Speaker 2: which is somebody who makes barrels. And I guess he

88
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 2: was a pretty decent barrel maker because he did it

89
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:01,359
Speaker 2: for a little while.

90
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, they it's a trade he learned in Scotland. So

91
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,320
Speaker 1: he opened up that Cooper Ridge and Dundee, like you said,

92
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 1: And a fortuitous incident happened as a cooper when he

93
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,200
Speaker 1: was on apparently this sort of abandoned or maybe just

94
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,600
Speaker 1: not claimed land cutting wood looking for wood for barrels,

95
00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:26,239
Speaker 1: and he discovered a hideout of some counterfeitters. He rustled

96
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,640
Speaker 1: up a posse, got some citizens together and captured them,

97
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 1: and for his efforts got a lot of local notoriety.

98
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,400
Speaker 1: And they said, hey, how about you become deputy sheriff

99
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,239
Speaker 1: here in Caine County, Illinois. And this was in eighteen

100
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,720
Speaker 1: forty six, and he said, well, I guess dad was

101
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: a copper and so maybe I should be too, or

102
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 1: a quasi copper at least.

103
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. This was actually before Chicago had an established police force. Yeah,

104
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,400
Speaker 2: and it was a big deal to be a cop.

105
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,200
Speaker 2: And if you were a cop, they also called them

106
00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,800
Speaker 2: watchmen because in a lot of cases that's what it

107
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 2: amounted to, like these men would not go into the

108
00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 2: highest crime areas and they would avoid the most dangerous criminals.

109
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 2: And there were just a few handfuls of them, but

110
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 2: Pinkerton made a name for himself very quickly as somebody

111
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 2: who had just like a sixth sense for just knowing

112
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,360
Speaker 2: when somebody was up to no good and following them

113
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 2: and seeing what they were up to, for being fearless. Yeah,

114
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,080
Speaker 2: and for not accepting bribes. He was as honest as

115
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,360
Speaker 2: the day as long as far as bribery is concerned.

116
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,520
Speaker 2: And that made him stand out. And he started kind

117
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,720
Speaker 2: of moving up the ranks pretty quickly and moved from

118
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,599
Speaker 2: Kinge County to Cook County, where he worked in the

119
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,159
Speaker 2: assessor's office, protecting Steven Spielberg.

120
00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,400
Speaker 3: Well, I'm not sure I get the reference.

121
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,559
Speaker 2: From Blues Brothers. Remember, wasn't Steven Spielberg the Cook County

122
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,960
Speaker 2: assessor eating the sandwich when they come to pay the taxes? Uh?

123
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 3: Frank Oz?

124
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,360
Speaker 2: No, Frank Oz was the the guy in the captain

125
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 2: property room.

126
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,240
Speaker 3: Oh, with Spielberg in that too.

127
00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,920
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm pretty sure he was the assessor at the

128
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 2: Cook County Assessor's office.

129
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:09,480
Speaker 3: I believe you. I don't.

130
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 1: I shamefully don't know Blues Brothers as well as clearly

131
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:13,760
Speaker 1: you do.

132
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,600
Speaker 2: So either, I'm like really just making this stuff up.

133
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 2: But we've had this conversation and we were fully on

134
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,680
Speaker 2: board with Spielberg being an assessor. Oh you know me

135
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 2: and I mean this was like two weeks ago.

136
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 3: No, it wasn't.

137
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 2: Okay, it wasn't two weeks ago. But we have had

138
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:31,760
Speaker 2: this conversation. I know we have.

139
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 1: I've just turned fifty four, so things are slipping, all right,

140
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:36,480
Speaker 1: I'll ease off.

141
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's what happened.

142
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 1: Eventually he would also be a special agent for the

143
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 1: US Post Office, and finally in eighteen fifty he started

144
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 1: the detective agency, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. Apparently was

145
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: the first detective. He was named the first detective in Chicago,

146
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 1: I think previous to this at just thirty one years old.

147
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,440
Speaker 1: And from the beginning from eighteen fifty till the end

148
00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,720
Speaker 1: of emancipation, Like I mentioned from the outset, he worked

149
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 1: to assist the escape and freeing of enslaved people. I

150
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,680
Speaker 1: think he even had a stop, like a volunteer to

151
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,080
Speaker 1: stop on the underground railroad.

152
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there was one. He apparently was bosom friends

153
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,680
Speaker 2: with John Brown. As he put it, he had a

154
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,960
Speaker 2: real chance to coin the term bosom buddies, but he

155
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 2: didn't do it.

156
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 3: Friends. Yeah, the ring does it.

157
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,200
Speaker 2: No, it really doesn't. But John Brown, the white abolitionist

158
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: gorilla essentially made a raid on a few farms in

159
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,480
Speaker 2: Missouri and ended up freeing eleven enslaved people and leading

160
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,800
Speaker 2: them to Canada. And one of the stops was with

161
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 2: Alan Pinkerton in Chicago, and Pinkerton by this time was

162
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,040
Speaker 2: wealthy enough that he paid for I guess, the train

163
00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,440
Speaker 2: ride from Chicago onto Detroit for everybody who John Brown

164
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 2: had busted out. So he definitely was an abolitionist, and

165
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,079
Speaker 2: from what I read was like from the moment he

166
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,280
Speaker 2: landed in the United States, he was an abolitionist. This

167
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,000
Speaker 2: wasn't like him pumping up his image years later.

168
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:08,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

169
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,040
Speaker 1: So a lot of the other work they were doing,

170
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,280
Speaker 1: they were doing other, you know work as an agency

171
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 1: besides working in the in the emancipayer, I guess, the

172
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 1: abolitionist movement. But this was you know, again in and

173
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 1: around Chicago that didn't have a real police department at

174
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,199
Speaker 1: the time, and they didn't exactly work as cops though.

175
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 1: It was sort of this weird hybrid of a thing

176
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 1: like they were.

177
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:34,880
Speaker 3: It wasn't like.

178
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,839
Speaker 1: Police, it wasn't like a private detective agency. But they

179
00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,120
Speaker 1: also weren't like full on cops. It was kind of

180
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,440
Speaker 1: hard to define at the time.

181
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the big distinction was is

182
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 2: they weren't out there like actively seeking crime as part

183
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 2: of the public good. They were hired to find like

184
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,400
Speaker 2: specific things, specific criminals, or to prevent specific crimes by

185
00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,559
Speaker 2: corporations typically, And one of the early employers or clients

186
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 2: I guess were the railroads because at the time, people

187
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,840
Speaker 2: would steal from railroads left and right. There were just

188
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 2: so many goods going across the United States. It was

189
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 2: just too tempting, and they started I think the first railroad, possibly,

190
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,360
Speaker 2: if not one of the first, was the Illinois Central Railroad,

191
00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,920
Speaker 2: and they worked security and did detective work for this railroad.

192
00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 2: And this would be a significant client for Pinkerton to

193
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,960
Speaker 2: land throughout the rest of his life because the corporate

194
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 2: attorney for the Illinois Central Railroad at the time was

195
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,160
Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln and the president of the railroad was William McClellan.

196
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,839
Speaker 2: And when you put those two together, you have some

197
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 2: high powered Civil War people on the Union side, and

198
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,240
Speaker 2: as we'll see, Alan Pinkerton join them in the Civil War.

199
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you've ever seen there weren't a lot of

200
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 1: photographs back then, but there's a very famous photograph of

201
00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,320
Speaker 1: Lincoln at Antietam.

202
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen this one?

203
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was looking at it today.

204
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:02,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

205
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,880
Speaker 1: So that's Pinkerton on the left. He's with two dudes

206
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,640
Speaker 1: standing in front of that canvas tent. And that's Pinkerton

207
00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,560
Speaker 1: on the left and Major General John mclarenand on the

208
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 1: right of Lincoln, who always just not forget. But anytime

209
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 1: you see a photo like that where you and there

210
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,800
Speaker 1: aren't many where you see like full size the full

211
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,760
Speaker 1: sized Lincoln doll, right, yeah, or cardboard cutout. He's just

212
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,240
Speaker 1: impossibly tall for back then. And then that stove pipe

213
00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,960
Speaker 1: hat just adds to it obviously. But I don't know

214
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 1: if he wore that hat to further imitant intimidate people,

215
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,839
Speaker 1: but he was just such a tall, lanky guy.

216
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,680
Speaker 3: It's just odd looking for that time period.

217
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,120
Speaker 2: For sure. I have trouble anytime I say stovepipe hat

218
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,559
Speaker 2: not saying stove top hat.

219
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,360
Speaker 3: Instead of stove top stuff. Did you eat that stuff?

220
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, we never got to eat that stuff. My mom

221
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:54,720
Speaker 1: didn't buy that stuff.

222
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, we ate that stuff, for sure. We ate all

223
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,560
Speaker 2: sorts of weird stuff like that, just.

224
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 3: Like dehydrated bread crumbs.

225
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,880
Speaker 2: Yes, but very tasty.

226
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 3: With herbs and stuff. M And what do you do?

227
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 3: You just mix it with some or put it on

228
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:10,880
Speaker 3: a casserole topper.

229
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 2: You put it in a pot with some weight, you

230
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,120
Speaker 2: boil a little water, and then you add it to

231
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 2: the water, soaks up the water, and then you add

232
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,640
Speaker 2: like ten sticks of butter, which is really what drives

233
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,680
Speaker 2: the whole thing home. There you go, and then yeah,

234
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,240
Speaker 2: you put it in your mouth directly from the pot. Typically.

235
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,760
Speaker 1: All right, well, this episode is clearly brought to you

236
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,640
Speaker 1: by stovetop stuffing instead of potatoes.

237
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 2: Hey, one other thing too. While we're on a tangent.

238
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,679
Speaker 2: I mentioned Sam Spade earlier. I cannot recommend enough the

239
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 2: limited series Monsieur Spade. It's on Netflix, starring Clive Owen.

240
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:45,520
Speaker 2: Have you seen it?

241
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,000
Speaker 3: I have not.

242
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,640
Speaker 2: God, it's so good. But at the same time, I've

243
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 2: never seen such a tightly constructed show just come totally

244
00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 2: off the rails in like.

245
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 3: The last hour in a bad way.

246
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, ultimately compared to the rest of the shows,

247
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,959
Speaker 2: it's bad, but it's almost like they forgot that they

248
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,600
Speaker 2: had to wrap it up and they just shot a

249
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 2: scene and that was it, and it was like so

250
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 2: totally improbable and just stood out so far from the

251
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 2: rest of the series that you're just like, what, But

252
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 2: luckily the rest of the series is so great it

253
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,120
Speaker 2: doesn't really damage it at all.

254
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 1: Oh, well, you led me down the right path with

255
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:27,959
Speaker 1: black doves, so I'll give it a shot.

256
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you guys liked that. Did you finish it?

257
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:31,319
Speaker 3: Yeah?

258
00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good that one fell apart at the end too.

259
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 3: You think, m huh, I liked it, man, you just

260
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:39,080
Speaker 3: don't like things ending.

261
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Maybe not all.

262
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,520
Speaker 1: Right, back to who are we talking about here, Pinkerton,

263
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:53,400
Speaker 1: not stovepipe or stuffing. So like I said, he was,

264
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 1: or like you said, I guess he was buddies with

265
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: Lincoln pre Civil War and had gotten to know what

266
00:13:59,800 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 1: was this.

267
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:05,200
Speaker 2: Name, William McClelland who would become the general that's right,

268
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 2: the head of the Union.

269
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,200
Speaker 3: Forces, that's right.

270
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 1: So that leads us to a story, a pretty major

271
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,800
Speaker 1: story story early on, I guess it's not that early on.

272
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,079
Speaker 1: It's about eleven years into the Detective Agency. But Pinkerton

273
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,960
Speaker 1: learned of an assassination plot against President elect Lincoln at

274
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:27,200
Speaker 1: the time, and there was a barber in Baltimore from Corsica.

275
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 1: His name was a Cipriano FADENDINEI, and he wanted to

276
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,000
Speaker 1: kill Abraham Lincoln when he was coming through Baltimore. When

277
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: Lincoln was on his way to Washington and Pinkerton, you know,

278
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: found out about this and was like, you're not going

279
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 1: to kill my buddy.

280
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 3: I'm going to thwart your plan.

281
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did. This was apparently like part of a

282
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,800
Speaker 2: general plan to prevent Lincoln from making it to his

283
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 2: inauguration in Washington. Right, just kill him in Baltimore, right, So,

284
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,720
Speaker 2: as Lincoln got told Baltimore, they enacted a plan where

285
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 2: he was taken off of the train at a stop

286
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,840
Speaker 2: I think like Harrisburg or something right before Baltimore, and

287
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 2: he was disguised and he basically played the brother of

288
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,360
Speaker 2: a woman named Kate Warren, who was a detective who

289
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 2: will talk about in a second, and she escorted him

290
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 2: on another train through Baltimore that went through at night,

291
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,840
Speaker 2: again in disguise. No one knew who he was. And

292
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,280
Speaker 2: one of the things that kind of came out of

293
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 2: the story that was so significant was that Kate Warren

294
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 2: stayed up all night and watched over Abraham Lincoln on

295
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 2: this train ride to Washington, d C. And that kind

296
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 2: of coined this term or this slogan that they adopted,

297
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,760
Speaker 2: we never sleep and led to the logo which was

298
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,200
Speaker 2: this open eye, like the all seeing eye that's watching you,

299
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,560
Speaker 2: that never sleep yepes.

300
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 3: And that eventually led to the just the term private eyes.

301
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,720
Speaker 2: Right, yes, exactly.

302
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:00,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

303
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 1: I imagine Lincoln was a pretty hard guy to disguise

304
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 1: now that I think about his height, that mustacheless beard

305
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 1: and that hat, like they're probably like, take off the

306
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 1: hat to begin with the first, get that hat off your.

307
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,000
Speaker 2: Head, right, get that stove top hat off.

308
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:16,800
Speaker 3: And they got a sharpie.

309
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 1: They drew on a mustache and then they they probably

310
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 1: put him if they would have been smart, they would

311
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 1: have put him like in a wheelchair or something, which

312
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 1: they made.

313
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 2: I saw that he was. I guess the term that

314
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 2: you would use today is like he posed as a

315
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,359
Speaker 2: handicap brother to Kate Warren.

316
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 3: Oh there you go, oh and told him to lower

317
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 3: his voice.

318
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 2: Right. It was a very good cher.

319
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 3: It was very.

320
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 1: Shocking still when everyone saw Lincoln and Daniel Day Lewis

321
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: came out like this.

322
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it was quite a choice, and only

323
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 2: Daniel day Lewis would have been allowed to do that too, totally.

324
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 2: Anybody else the director had been like, what are you

325
00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:58,560
Speaker 2: doing exactly?

326
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 3: You don't question him. So you mentioned Kate Warren? Is

327
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 3: it Warren and not Warny?

328
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:04,880
Speaker 2: I think it's Warren?

329
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 3: Okay, Wrny.

330
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 1: She's very notable too, though, aside from just assisting in

331
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 1: this plot to save Lincoln or I guess action to

332
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,960
Speaker 1: save Lincoln against the plot.

333
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 3: She was a.

334
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: Detective like Pinkerton in a very forward thinking sort of way.

335
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty six, hired her after she convinced him like, hey,

336
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,879
Speaker 1: you get you know, there are things that women can do,

337
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,920
Speaker 1: places we can infiltrate information, we can get in ways

338
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,880
Speaker 1: that men cannot. And he saw the value in that

339
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,560
Speaker 1: hired her, and then I think, but four years later

340
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,639
Speaker 1: made her head of the female detective Bureau. So they

341
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,240
Speaker 1: kind of stamped up with some women to work in

342
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 1: these undercover roles.

343
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's really like this was unheard of. So

344
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty six is when he hires her. The first

345
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,679
Speaker 2: actual sworn policewoman that I could find in the United

346
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,920
Speaker 2: States was a woman named Lola baldin eighty s Portland, Oregon. Yeah,

347
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 2: in nineteen oh eight. Okay, so, uh, forty four plus

348
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 2: eight is fifty four fifty two years, Yeah, fifty two

349
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,920
Speaker 2: years ahead of schedule. Pinkerton hired a woman and made

350
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,400
Speaker 2: her a very famous detective and just.

351
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 1: Super smart, you know, because she was right on the money.

352
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were great assets to their cause.

353
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,640
Speaker 2: For sure. You want to take a break, Yeah, let's

354
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 2: do it.

355
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so we're back with more on Pinkerton.

356
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,440
Speaker 1: The Silver War would begin, and Lincoln put George McClellan,

357
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 1: who we previously mentioned as someone who knew Pinkerton through

358
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 1: the railroad business, put him in charge of the Army

359
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 1: of the Potomac, and he said, hey, Pinkerton does pretty

360
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 1: good work. I'm going to bring this guy in as

361
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 1: sort of a head spy. We'll call it like a

362
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 1: secret service division. And he worked under Allan Pinkerton, that is,

363
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 1: worked under the code name Major E. J. Allen, and

364
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 1: was pretty good at rooting out spies, but not so

365
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,880
Speaker 1: good at intelligent gathering and interpretation.

366
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 2: No, he rooted out a spir ring led by a

367
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 2: woman named Rose O'Neil greenhow who was a Southerner but

368
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 2: was still like the toast of Washington D c. Society,

369
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 2: And she was really running a very sophisticated and very

370
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 2: developed spirring for the Confederacy, and he found her out,

371
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 2: busted everybody. It was a big deal. But with estimating

372
00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:02,200
Speaker 2: troop strength, no, he may have single handedly added years

373
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 2: onto the Civil War when he told McClellan. General McClellan

374
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 2: that he estimated the Confederates had between I think one

375
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 2: hundred or two hundred thousand troops.

376
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw two hundred.

377
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, So at the time Robert E. Lee had forty

378
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: thousand to forty five thousand troops, so he grossly overestimated it,

379
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 2: and McClellan had something like seventy six thousand troops, so

380
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 2: they could have very easily overwhelmed the Confederacy early on,

381
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 2: had Pinkerton not overestimated the troops and had I also

382
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 2: saw McClellan didn't vet that information at all. He just

383
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 2: took it on face. And by the way, all of

384
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 2: you Civil War buffs, if you can go back and

385
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 2: unsend your emails, it's not William McClellan, it's George B. McClellan.

386
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I misspoke.

387
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 3: Oh I think I said William too, didn't I? Or

388
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 3: did I?

389
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 2: I led you down the wrong pain.

390
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 3: Okay.

391
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: So Pinkerton would eventually leave his role in military intelligence.

392
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: I think this was in eighteen sixty two after McClellan,

393
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 1: who had hired him, was demoted. Essentially he lost his

394
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 1: whatever not real huh position. Yeah, I guess he lost

395
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 1: his positions as rank leader or whatever terms not going

396
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 1: to be emailed by civil war buffs at all. And

397
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: then he said, all right, let me go back. You know,

398
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 1: he still had his private detective agency, so let me

399
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 1: go back to doing that. And I guess we can

400
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some of the other innovations,

401
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: you know, aside from hiring women to work as infiltrators

402
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: and moles. He and I believe we've talked about this

403
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,719
Speaker 1: in one of our crime episodes.

404
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 3: Yes, did we do one on mug shots or just

405
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 3: I think it came up to the criminal databases maybe.

406
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Alfonse Bertillon or Berrol on He in the I think,

407
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: like the eighteen forties came up with the idea of

408
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 2: mug shots fingerprints using like head measurements to Yeah, basically

409
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: create a database of criminals so that they couldn't pose

410
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: his other people. And I guess that Pinkerton heard about

411
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 2: this and brought it to the United States.

412
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but when he brought it to the United States,

413
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: he wanted to sort of codify it, I guess, and

414
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,479
Speaker 1: make it a more usable system and standardize everything. So

415
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: he you know, made all the pictures the same size.

416
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: He essentially made little yearbooks. He made got handwriting samples,

417
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: and he would make these books and he would send

418
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 1: them out and they called it the Rogues Gallery, and

419
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 1: it was sort of the beginning of the you know,

420
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: the United States criminal database.

421
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and each picture had a senior superlative underneath this,

422
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 2: so there was like most likely to unnecessarily shoot someone

423
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 2: you're robbing in the knee.

424
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, stuff like that. That's good.

425
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 2: I also saw that this was so sophisticated that it

426
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: wouldn't be until the FBI was formed that something like

427
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: a criminal database like this would be expanded upon.

428
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 3: Basically, did you get a senior superlative?

429
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 2: I did most most likely to talk about criminal databases?

430
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 3: Oh?

431
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:17,479
Speaker 2: Did I? In reality, I don't think so, no, because

432
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 2: my senior quote was leave me alone.

433
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: We had fun ones and then real ones, like official ones,

434
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 1: and I got one of each.

435
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 3: Oh well, what were they I got? Actually?

436
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: I got two of the unofficials. For the unofficials, I

437
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 1: got best style.

438
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: Oh nice, that's really saying something in high school, man.

439
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,959
Speaker 3: I guess so I'm not sure how I won that one. Actually.

440
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: And then I got most fun on a Date, which

441
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: was very ironic because I literally dated one person my

442
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 1: senior year and I was just the good friend to

443
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: all the girls that I wanted to date.

444
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 3: Wow, I was that guy.

445
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,360
Speaker 1: But then the official ones that were in the yearbook.

446
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: Best all round boy.

447
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: Jeez, man, I see you in a different light now.

448
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 3: Oh you know it's pretty. I still got my T shirt.

449
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: I'll wear it occasionally.

450
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: Best all around boy.

451
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 3: Best all round boy.

452
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 2: I think that's your new nickname.

453
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 3: B A A R B B. Well, best all around technically.

454
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 2: Oh, I say all round, But then again I call

455
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: stove top hats well.

456
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: So best best be a Barb? Right, yeah, all right,

457
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: just call me Barb from now on.

458
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: Okay, Barb. I have a beloved aunt named Barb.

459
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: Do I do too, or Emily does, so she's sort

460
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: of my aunt as well.

461
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can claim her all right. So, uh, there's

462
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: another thing that that Pinkerton did to really kind of

463
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: help establish his his agency is like just nationally recognized

464
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 2: and also kind of heroes. They were considered heroes across

465
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: the United States because they went after bad guys and

466
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: they usually got their man. They were very person and dogged.

467
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes they would pursue criminals for years. Yeah, like it

468
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: wasn't like, well, we tried for a month and we

469
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: gave up. Like they would just keep going until they

470
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: found the person. They would pursue them into Canada sometimes wow,

471
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: into Mexico and beyond. And I guess one of the

472
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: reasons why they were revered is because they had a

473
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 2: code of conduct that was like strictly implemented. It was

474
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: things like like we will take no bribes, which is

475
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: a big one at the time. Oh yeah, probably still

476
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 2: is now. Will never compromise with criminals. Yeah, we will

477
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: partner with local law enforcement when possible. Okay, this one

478
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: stood out to me. I thought this was kind of upstanding.

479
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: They wouldn't take divorce cases or any case that could

480
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 2: create a scandal for anybody.

481
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool.

482
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty stand up. They also turned down reward money,

483
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: and he paid his agents pretty well apparently, and this

484
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: is just sort of business nuts and bolts, but he

485
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: had a pledge to never raise fees without the client knowing,

486
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: like in other words, I'm not going to hand you

487
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: a bill at the end. That's not what we talked about, right,

488
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: And also would just keep all of his clients very

489
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: well informed. They had internal rules that were like I

490
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: think in the pamphlet the General Principles of Pinkerton's National

491
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: Detective Agency, they said things like the agent must be

492
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: of a high order of mind, must possess clear and honest,

493
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: comprehensive understanding, force.

494
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: Of will, vigor of body.

495
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: And you can't drink on the job unless you absolutely

496
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: have to as assumed assumingly some part of like some

497
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: mole situation where you're like, hey, do you want to

498
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: go to the bar with us?

499
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: Right, you better drink this rye whiskey or else. Well, know,

500
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: you're a Pinkerton man exactly. They also, unless you had

501
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 2: a direct order from your superior too, you weren't allowed

502
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: to use alcohol to get like confessions or anything out of.

503
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 3: Suspects someone's super drunk. Yeah, yeah, I.

504
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: Mean these are all pretty great like.

505
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 3: Codes of conduct in totally. Yeah.

506
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: I did not see any stories of like rogue Pinkerton

507
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: agents or that this was all just you know, a whitewashing,

508
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: and they actually didn't behave like this at all. They

509
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: do seem to have been pretty upstanding. And then so

510
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: the other thing that really expanded the legend of the Pinkertons,

511
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 2: and probably in part of why we still understand or

512
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: know them today, is Alan Pinkerton wrote a bunch of books,

513
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: or at least published a series of books under his name,

514
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 2: that were like true crime detective stories.

515
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

516
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: This would have been in the eighteen sixties, eighteen seventies,

517
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: I think, so this is like the dawn of detective stories.

518
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 3: I think they don't.

519
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 2: Remember when Poe wrote Murder in the Room Morgue. Was

520
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 2: that the first detective story.

521
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I mean it was. It was

522
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 3: early on in the going for sure.

523
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: It was ahead of its time.

524
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

525
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: One of the most famous ones was the Detective in

526
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: the Somnambula.

527
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, And that is one in which he as

528
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: the character and Kate Warren as her character. They catch

529
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: a murderer. They go into cover, of course, and catch

530
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: a murderer and a bank robber using a Pinkerton agent

531
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: as always that posed as a ghost to get a confession.

532
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw there was another one where Kate Warren

533
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: posed as a fortune teller to get a confession out

534
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: of somebody.

535
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: Oh that's pretty smart.

536
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but these are like the books that they're saying

537
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: like this, this is what we did. Yeah, And I mean, like,

538
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: if this was even remotely close, it must have been

539
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: thrilling to be a Pinkerton detective at this time, because

540
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: this is again when they were just a cause celeb

541
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: in America and did not have the blemish reputation that

542
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: they have today.

543
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a book potentially being like a character in

544
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: a book would be, you know, back then a sort

545
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: of tantamount to like they made a TV show about

546
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: us or something.

547
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we played like a semi fictional version of

548
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: ourselves or something like that.

549
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

550
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: One of the other things they were known for, Chuck

551
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 2: was nabbing outlaws in the wild West, because as the

552
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: United States expanded westward and the frontier just kept going,

553
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: it was a while in raucous and lawless place you

554
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: might have a marshal. I know, we talked about the

555
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: Marshall Service serving as the law enforcement out west, but

556
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: there it was kind of far and fewed between. So

557
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: the Pinkertons filled the real need at the time. Because

558
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: one of the first things that developed after the Civil

559
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: War was train robberies.

560
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you got these. Like you said earlier,

561
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: it's a pretty good take when you rob a train

562
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: and you know, you get them out in the middle

563
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: of nowhere, which is kind of the great. The great

564
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: thing about robbing trains, everybody, yeah, is you can just

565
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, ride your horses up. You've seen all the

566
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: movies in the middle of nowhere where there's no one

567
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: around to help. But in this case, the Pinkertons are there.

568
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: One of the first gangs that they got the Reno Gang.

569
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: After the Civil War, they started robbing trains in Indiana

570
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: and Missouri and banks and other places, but not from Reno,

571
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: but they were the Renos John Frank Simeon and William Reno.

572
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: And in October eighteen sixty six, for instance, they robbed

573
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: the Ohio and Mississippi Express to the tune of fifteen

574
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in eighteen sixty six money, which is a huge,

575
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: huge haul. Were arrested, but they posted bail and then

576
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: started robbing again kind of right away, trains and banks,

577
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: and so the Pinkertons were like where on the job.

578
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: I think the Adams Express company was like, we've had enough,

579
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: We got to hire these guys.

580
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the two years that the Reno Gang was active,

581
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: they stole about a half a million dollars in eighteen

582
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 2: sixties money. Wow, that was a ton of cash. They

583
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: were very successful. So yeah, they definitely caught the attention

584
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: of the train companies. Adams Express hires the Pinkertons and

585
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: they start hunting down the Reno Gang. And this is

586
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: a good example of them just using dogged persistence over

587
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: and over and over again. They just kind of one

588
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: by one captured the gang members. The first was John Reno,

589
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: not Geen Renau from Twin Peaks.

590
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: I had that same joke.

591
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: They got him first. He may have been the leader

592
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: as far as I know. They also caught a guy

593
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: named Charles Roseberry who was a member of the gang.

594
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,959
Speaker 2: And I don't know if they were expecting this or not,

595
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: but the locals who were with them when they caught

596
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: Charles Rowberry strung him up and hung him right there

597
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: they when they caught him, and I didn't see, like

598
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: what the Pinkertons thought about this kind of thing.

599
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of those guys

600
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: were lynched and hanged. And yeah, I don't know. I'm

601
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: not sure if that's a good question. Actually, if that

602
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: was I mean, obviously it wasn't his call, but after

603
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: he hands them over, but I wonder if he was, like,

604
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: I mean, how about a trial at least?

605
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: Right, this doesn't seem to jibe with the code of conduct.

606
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

607
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: I also saw they recovered about three hundred thousand dollars

608
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: in cash and at least one instant, So definitely got

609
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: your money's worth when you hired the Pinkertons to nab

610
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: wild West train robbers.

611
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet they weren't cheap though I tried to

612
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: find out kind of how much they were paid. But

613
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: if he was paying his agents well, which he supposedly did,

614
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: then I'm sure they were not a cheap hire.

615
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: No, And then things kind of went pear shaped for

616
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: the Pinkertons. As far as I can tell, this was

617
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: the first time the Pinkerton's reputation took a real hit

618
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: with the James Gang Yeah, they went after the James Gang,

619
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: led by Frank and Jesse James. I didn't know this, Yeah,

620
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: but they were terrorists, Confederate terrorists during the Civil War

621
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: in Missouri, that's where they were from. And Missouri was

622
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: this powder keg that actually kind of helped kick off

623
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: the Civil War because I guess abolitionists and pro slavery

624
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: people came together to settle Missouri and they did not

625
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: get along. And during the Civil War one of the

626
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: things that James Gang did was murder Union supporters in Missouri. Yes,

627
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: not even on the front lines. These weren't even soldiers,

628
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: these were civilians. They were just running around killing and terrorizing.

629
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

630
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: And you know, after the war, of course, they gained

631
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: further notoriety by robbing everything in sight, you know, trains, banks,

632
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: stage coaches, you name it. And Jesse sort of built

633
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: up this, oh what do you call it, like a

634
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: sort of a legendary status among the poor in working

635
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: class that he was some kind of a robin Hood type,

636
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: even though there's no indication that he was ever like

637
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: robbing to give to the poor, right, but people would

638
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: you know, hide him and take care of him and

639
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: stuff like that. For some reason, but at any rate,

640
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy four, the Pinkertons were hired to catch

641
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: these guys, Frank and Jesse, and they sent an agent

642
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: to infiltrate the gang.

643
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: His name was Joseph.

644
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,239
Speaker 1: Witcher, and he did a pretty good job until they

645
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: found out that he was an informant and he was murdered,

646
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: which kind of started the downhill tumble.

647
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Alan Pinkerton took this quite personally. Oh yeah, there's

648
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 2: a quote from him saying that as far as capturing

649
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: Jesse and Frank James, there's no use talking. They must die. Yeah,

650
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: So if they were wanted dead or alive, he was

651
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: going to bring him in dead for sure. And in

652
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy five, early on in the year, they went

653
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: to the James's family home in Missouri, and Jesse and

654
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: Frank James weren't home. They'd been tipped off that the

655
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: Pinkertons with a bunch of local pro union supporters were

656
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: going to be there to capture them, so they weren't there.

657
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 2: But apparently the Pinkertons and their assistants didn't know this.

658
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: Somebody the Pinkerton said this was a local that did this,

659
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: that they did not do this. Somebody threw a lantern

660
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: into the home I saw in the hopes of illuminating

661
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: things better. Well, the lantern exploded, Yeah, exactly. The lantern exploded,

662
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 2: killed their eight year old half brother Archie, and blew

663
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 2: their mom, Zerelda's arm off. So they've killed a young

664
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: boy and maimed an older woman, and the Pinkertons are

665
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: the ones who took the hit reputation wise.

666
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and after all that, you know, pr work, A

667
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: lot of that was undone because of this, basically, But

668
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: it's not like they've shut down or anything.

669
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: And didn't they go after some other gangs too?

670
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: Yeah? Very famously. They were the ones that chased Butch

671
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: Cassidy and Sundance the Sundance Kid down to Bolivia. Bolivian

672
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: army killed them, and they were famous for catching and

673
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: summarily executing all the members of the Apple Dumpling Gang.

674
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 3: All right, we'll take a break now.

675
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to contemplate that joke, and we're going to

676
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: come back and talk about what the Pinkertons were kind

677
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: of known for from this point forward.

678
00:35:59,320 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 3: Right after this.

679
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so after the Wild West kind of came and went,

680
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: they got into corporate affairs firmly on the side of

681
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: the corporation. At the time, there was a lot of

682
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: labor movements, a lot of workers write stuff going on,

683
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: and don't forget Alan Pinkerton had to flee the UK

684
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: because he was such a radical labor supporter. Now his

685
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 2: agency is the Premier Security Group and labor organization infiltrators.

686
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 2: This is what they started doing, and this is where

687
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: they're the bad name, the blemish on their name that's

688
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: still around today, really started to develop because they were

689
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: at this point do whatever corporations wanted them to do

690
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 2: as long as they paid them.

691
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what corporations generally wanted them to

692
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: do was bust up the unions. Was to infiltrate the

693
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: companies and bust up unions, which is what they ultimately

694
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: started doing for you know, a lot of money. It

695
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: started out as an employee testing service in eighteen fifty

696
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: five and sort of grew over.

697
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 3: The next few years.

698
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: And initially it was like, hey, let's get some moles

699
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: in there and see if we can uncover like illegal activity,

700
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: people stealing from the company and stuff like that.

701
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 3: But then it's just understandable, Yeah, totally.

702
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: But then that sort of expanded, and I guess the

703
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: people hiring were like, Hey, since you're in there, why

704
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: don't you kind of let us know what's going on,

705
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 1: what they're talking about, and like if they like management discontented,

706
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: and if they're you know, most importantly, if they're starting

707
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: to organize and talk about forming a labor society, which

708
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: you know, of course would ultimately be a union.

709
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: Yes. This became such a part of their job that

710
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: the Order of Railway Conductors started warning their members that

711
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: there's Pinkerton's undercover who are watching you, and not just

712
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: watching you to see if you're stealing, they're watching you

713
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 2: to see if you want to form a union. And

714
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 2: this was the I mean, this was a terrible direction

715
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: for them to start to go down because this was

716
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: such a militant time. I mean, there were like anarchists

717
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: running around like throwing bombs in the United States. There

718
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: were labor unions that soldiers were sometimes brought out to shoot.

719
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a really rough time as far

720
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: as like labor and management goes, because there was just

721
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 2: this struggle to say, who owns the fruit of our labor? Yeah,

722
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: you who's paying for the raw materials or us who's

723
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 2: actually turning those raw materials into the end product. And

724
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: maybe it's not one or the other, but I guarantee

725
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: it's more than the share that you're giving us a

726
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 2: factory owner. And so this struggle became violent and many

727
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 2: many times. Again, like I said, the Pinkertons landed firmly

728
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: or started out firmly on the side of corporations that

729
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: they stayed there.

730
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should probably highlight the Molly Maguire's that was

731
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: one of more famous cases. They were a secret society

732
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: in Ireland initially and then in eighteen sixties in Pennsylvania

733
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: kind of re emerged from Irish immigrants because they were

734
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: coal miners there and at the time they were facing

735
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: a lot of discrimination. The job conditions were not good,

736
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,479
Speaker 1: working long hours, they were very dangerous, and they were

737
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of times living in company housing,

738
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: paid in company script that they could only spend at

739
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: the company store. They were just completely folded into this

740
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: corporation as almost enslaved people in some way.

741
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: You know.

742
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: Ultimately they had their freedom, of course, but it was

743
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: they were owned by the company essentially. Finally, in the

744
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: eighteen sixties, supervisors started receiving these coffin notices basically from

745
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: the worker saying, hey were the molly mcguires, and coffin

746
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: notice means that your time on earth is nigh and

747
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: you're not going to be around very long. So the

748
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: writing was on the wall that things were about to

749
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: turn violent.

750
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it did start to get violent. And I

751
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: saw that the molly mcguires started murdering and assassinating some

752
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: of the some of the members of the corporation, like Foreman,

753
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 2: who were the people they worked with the most directly

754
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: and who are the most brutal toward them. But I

755
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 2: also saw that this was in retaliation for members of

756
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: the molly mcguires being murdered first. Yeah, either way, it

757
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: turned violent pretty terribly. What the molly mcguires did not

758
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 2: know is that there was a Pinkerton man who they

759
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: knew as James McKenna, but whose real name was James McFarlane,

760
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: who had spent two years by now working under cover

761
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: and ingratiating himself with the mally mcguires, or even beyond

762
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: the mally McGuire's, just the Irish coal miners who worked

763
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 2: and lived in this area, so much so he became

764
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 2: the secretary of the local lodge of the Ancient Order

765
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: of Hiberians, an Irish Catholic fraternal organization. So he really

766
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 2: worked his way into it, and he got a lot

767
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 2: of intel on them, and ultimately turned state's evidence and

768
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 2: got twenty men executed almost exclusively on his testimony.

769
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, on charges of murder, arson, and kidnapping.

770
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 1: Ten were hanged in eighteen seventy seven. Ten were then

771
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: hanged in eighteen seventy eight, I guess, and this is

772
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: one of the most like insider jobs of all time.

773
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: I think there was a historian, Harald Aaron who that

774
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: was one of the most astonishing, astounding, excuse me, surrenders

775
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: of sovereignty and American history, because what happened was Franklin Gowan,

776
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: who was the guy who ran the company who hired

777
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: the Pinkertons to begin with, he was the chief prosecutor.

778
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 1: So it was all this inside job. These guys were

779
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: arrested by a private police force, and then the coal

780
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: company's attorneys prosecuted them, and the only thing that the

781
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: state did was like, here, use his courtroom and use

782
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: our gallows or whatever, and other than that, it was

783
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: all just a private job to find and execute these guys.

784
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, many of whom who were considered to have been innocent.

785
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: They were innocent men who were executed again almost exclusively

786
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: on James mcparlane, this Pinkerton man's testimony, and yeah, it

787
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: was just a total travesty from starting to finish. In Pennsylvania.

788
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: Did pardon one of the men, John Keho, in nineteen

789
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 2: seventy nine, about one hundred years too late for John Keyho,

790
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: but it was kind of a symbolic thing saying like, yeah,

791
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 2: we really screwed up and letting this company essentially form

792
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: their own court and trial and executions. Probably more famous though,

793
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: is the Pinkerton's role in the Homestead strike in Homestead,

794
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania at one of the Carnegie Steel mills.

795
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

796
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: So in eighteen ninety two there was a union contract

797
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: that expired for that steel company in Pennsylvania there in Homestead,

798
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: and Henry Clay Frick and Andrew Carnegie, a couple of

799
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: robber barons we've talked about in the past, said all right,

800
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: we're going to cut wages back. We're going to break

801
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: this union, which was the Amalgamated Association of Steel and

802
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: Iron Workers and Carnegie said, I'm out here. I'm going

803
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: to leave the country. Henry Clay Henry Clay Frick got

804
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: involved sort of doing the dirty work on the ground.

805
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he said, all right, I'm going to hire

806
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 3: the Pinkertons. We're not even negotiating.

807
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring these guys in to essentially act

808
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: as guards to lock these people out.

809
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so three hundred Pinkertons showed up on July sixth,

810
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: eighteen ninety two. They were pulled down the river on

811
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: barges and they were all armed to the teeth with

812
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: Winchester rifles and cold forty five's and all the modern

813
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: guns you could hope for. And when they arrived, they

814
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: were met with I think two or three thousand homestead

815
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: not just steel workers, but neighbors, community members, just people

816
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: who were supporting the strikers.

817
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 3: Angry too.

818
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were really mad, not just because they were

819
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: in the midst of the strike, but because this private

820
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: police force had shown up to intimidate them or possibly

821
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: kill them the way that they were armed. And so

822
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: a battle ensued, Like there's no other word for it.

823
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 2: It was a twelve or fifteen hour battle. Yeah, only

824
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: a dozen people died. But that's amazing to me. As

825
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: violent as this battle was, they tried to or I

826
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 2: should say, they pushed a flaming train car at the

827
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 2: barges to try to kill the Pinkertons. Like that was

828
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: just one thing that the strikers did. Like it was

829
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: really violent.

830
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it was shocking that only a dozen

831
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: people died. I guess it's a testament to how bad

832
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: of a shot they were. It really was collectively. Of course,

833
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: the workers, you know, they they surrendered. The Pinkertons did

834
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: because they were just so far outnumbered, even though most

835
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: of the I think most of the dozen were the

836
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: workers that died, but the Pinkertons knew that they were

837
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: vastly outnumbered, so they surrendered.

838
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 3: But the workers lost.

839
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: Because he Henry Clay, frick Man, I have a hard time.

840
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 3: With that one.

841
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: You want to say, people, I know Henry Clay.

842
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: People got eighty five hundred National Guard troops sent in

843
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: after the Pinkertons left, and of course, you know, they

844
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: broke the union and said we're going to decrease your wages,

845
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: We're going to increase how much you have to work,

846
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: and this just became sort of a cyclical thing that

847
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: was happening. The Pinkertons early on, they were pretty good

848
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: at infiltrating, but when it came to breaking these unions,

849
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: the federal government would come in with the troops and

850
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: do a far better job at doing so.

851
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, because strikers typically recognized federal troops is more legitimate

852
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: than a private police force showing up, you know.

853
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just more people with more arms.

854
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had gatling guns, like it's demonstrated at the

855
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: end of the Wild Bunch.

856
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 3: That's right.

857
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 2: You don't want to mess with those. So yeah, from

858
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: those of us, like looking back today, you might think, oh,

859
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: that's just what they did back then, which was messed up,

860
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: but that's just the norm. Not true. Congress actually investigated

861
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 2: this incident. They were like, that is pretty screwed up

862
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: that you hired the Pinkertons and brought in the National

863
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 2: Guard to essentially put this town under martial law. And

864
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: as a matter of fact, Congress urged states to pass

865
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: laws to make it so that corporations couldn't hire private

866
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 2: companies to break unions, and Ohio went so far as

867
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 2: to say the Pinkertons themselves are now illegal here.

868
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's true. So I mean that really changed

869
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: everything for the Pinkertons there as far as strike breaking goes.

870
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: It took a huge hit. Couldn't get a lot of

871
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: work after that, But they did go on. They did

872
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 1: anti union espionage work.

873
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 3: Of course.

874
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: This is something I never knew at all, was that

875
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: they they just they kept going. They were acquired in

876
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, Yeah, by Securitas, and I had no

877
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: idea that they went on that much further after Pinkerton's death,

878
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 1: after Alan Pickerton's death.

879
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they trade on the name still, for sure. Yeah.

880
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: It's a massive company I think, with like fifty thousand

881
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: employees and offices all over the world, but they still

882
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: use the Pinkerton name. Like you can hire Pinkerton for

883
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: corporate security. Apparently they'll ride along and container ships to

884
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: protect against pirates. Wow, they've served as guards at Marylyn

885
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: Rose funeral. Yeah, back in the sixties. I also saw

886
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: that same year they escorted the Mona Lisa from France

887
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: to the US.

888
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: Oh, which is you know, they could probably just do

889
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: that under an overcoat. That thing's pretty small.

890
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: It is fairly small. And then one other thing where

891
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: they pop up and this made me wonder if this

892
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 2: is where this idea came from. Apparently they're bad guys

893
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: in the video game Red Dead Redemption two, which I

894
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: know for a fact that you've played.

895
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: They very much are figured, very heavily into that storyline

896
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 1: if you play the story part of that.

897
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: Is that where you got the idea to do one

898
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: on them?

899
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: No, because I haven't played that in a long time,

900
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: I'm not sure where I got it. It may have been,

901
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not really sure. They also pigure

902
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: in a bunch of movies. Of course, they're in Deadwood.

903
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: They were in The Long Riders in the eighties, and

904
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: Friend of the Show Paul Schneider was in the Great

905
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: Great Movie from two thousand and seven, the Assassination of

906
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, and they that

907
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: Pinkerton's figure pretty heavily in that movie too.

908
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 2: That was a good movie. We should talk about the

909
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 2: death of Alan Pinkerton real quick, Chuck.

910
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty unusual.

911
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: He died July first, eighteen eighty four, right before his

912
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: sixty fifth birthday. And as the story goes, he slipped

913
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: on a street in Chicago and bit his tongue something

914
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: which I did when I was a kid, had twelve

915
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: stitches across the center of my tongue back together when

916
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 1: I was like twelve. But I did not die, because

917
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: I'm still here. But Pinkerton died as a result of

918
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: this because it turned gangrenous.

919
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he wouldn't go get it treated, and it just

920
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: kept getting worse, and that was it for him. Yeah,

921
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: he was put to rest near his wife. And very interestingly,

922
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: he also in his family plot, buried Kate Warren because

923
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 2: he so admired this the first female detective ever hired.

924
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 2: He so admired her in her work that he had

925
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: her buried with him. She was still alive and was

926
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: very unhappy about this, but he admired her that much.

927
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: That's super cool. So she's there with him. Maybe I

928
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: guess some of his sons are there and his wife Joan.

929
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 3: Yes, wonderful.

930
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 2: Nice Chuck, you got anything else?

931
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 3: I got nothing else.

932
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: That's it for the Pinkertons. Everybody at long last. And

933
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: since I said it long last, I just triggered listener mail.

934
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 3: That's right. This is a little follow up on the

935
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 3: GPS episode.

936
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 1: Toward the end, I kind of poked fun at Garman

937
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: as being something that you know, like my mom uses

938
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 1: and not like a more modern system. But it turns

939
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: out Garment is still very popular because Deanna sent me

940
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: an email saying, Hey, a lot of cyclists use this stuff,

941
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: and I asked her why. I was like, oh, that's

942
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: super interesting. I said, do you know why they have

943
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: you know, they're used by cyclists, are still around in

944
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: that capacity, and she said, good question. I think there

945
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: are a couple of reasons why it's still the go

946
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: to for GPS. They've been around forever. They've been making

947
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 1: GPS for planes and boats since the late eighties, so

948
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: they had a really big head start and then number

949
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: two constant refinement. While others are just starting to develop

950
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: their products, Garman was already fine tuning theirs, and they

951
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: had a twenty year head start, so they packed in

952
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: a ton of extra features. For example, they introduced the

953
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: first bike radar system years before anyone else, and the

954
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: radar still blows the competition away. I even have a

955
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: buddy he works for Wahoo and he still uses a

956
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: Garman radar.

957
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: Very nice.

958
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: Also, Deanna says they built a lot of brand loyalty,

959
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: especially in the cycling world. Minievus still use them, even

960
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: though the quality has slipped just a bit in recent years.

961
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 1: We don't like using phones on our bikes because they're

962
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: bulky and drain the batteries really fast, and Garman just

963
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: feels more polished and reliable for our needs.

964
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: Who is that from?

965
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 3: That was from Deanna?

966
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: Deanna Garman. That's right, Thanks Deanna. We appreciate that. That

967
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 2: was a great email, and if you want to be

968
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: like Deanna, you can email us too. Send it off

969
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

970
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

971
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

972
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.