1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. So, as you know, we've been 11 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: careful about putting our foot too deep into the JFK wormhole, 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: but we found an interesting way in. We're going to 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: interview and talk to one of our friends, Phil Robinson, 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: a well known Hollywood director and writer who did fall 15 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole. 16 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: So we're going to be doing that, And as always, 17 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: I just want to know, what are you hiding? 18 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 4: Why have we done so many episodes of this show 19 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 4: with two former CIA officers and you just refuse to 20 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 4: do JFK until I browbeat you. 21 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: Well, as you know, dam you know, you recruit assets early. 22 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: And I was four when JFK was killed and John 23 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: was only two, so you know, we. 24 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, with all the drinking we did, and now we're older, 25 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: I could very well know that the CIA was involved 26 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: in killing Kennedy and I forgot it completely. 27 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 3: All right, let me ask you this. Forget JFK. You 28 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 3: don't have to tell me what it is. But is 29 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 3: there a big shocking thing that the CIA did that 30 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: if you told us would be like, WHOA, I can't 31 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 3: believe that. 32 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: No, yes, but had a good way. It's like what 33 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: you did this, you saved all those people. 34 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 1: But you know what, people are so cynical that would 35 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: be like, that's what we expect you to do. 36 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: Well, it's it's a lot of ways. It's the lack 37 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: of something which makes puts us oh Is at a disadvantage. 38 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: After nine to eleven, we know that al Qaeda was 39 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: talking about a second strike and there were plans in place. 40 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: It never happened. There's a lot of reasons for that. 41 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: But we you know, terrible things could have happened, bombs 42 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: that didn't go. I mean, those are sort of the 43 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: things I'm thinking about. 44 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: We definitely stopped lots of terrorist attacks. We've definitely stopped 45 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: lots of terrorists. But is that what you're talking about him? 46 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: Is that exciting to. 47 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: You for us to say it's not exciting enough, that's 48 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: your job. 49 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 3: Come on, you want what do you want? You want 50 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:15,559 Speaker 3: to met? 51 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: It was pretty goddamn exciting that much, I can tell you. 52 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 5: I bet it is exciting. 53 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 4: But yeah, it's more fun when it's did you kill 54 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 4: presidents and stuff? I guess that is true. I guess 55 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 4: that is why conspiracy theories win. 56 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: Is it interesting if a president form president was a 57 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: spy for us? Or if we do have to kill 58 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: him for it to be interesting? 59 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:33,119 Speaker 2: Wait? 60 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: Was a former president of a spy for you? 61 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that, but it would that be interesting 62 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: to you? 63 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 2: That would be which one ran the CIA? 64 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true. 65 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 3: All right, I'm excited to hear what your friend Phil 66 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: Robinson has to say. 67 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: Today's guest is Phil Robinson. Phil is a Hollywood big shot. 68 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: He's a writer and director, having written and directed such 69 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: classic films as Field of Dreams, Sneakers, Some of All Fears, 70 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: and involved with Band of Brothers and he Rewrote a 71 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: personal favorite of mine. But more importantly, he's a friend 72 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: of ours and for our purposes today, he's a recovering 73 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: obsessive on the assassination of President John F. 74 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: Kennedy. 75 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 5: Phil, welcome, It's very nice to be here. 76 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: It's funny just because we know you, we know that 77 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: you were interested in this. I know you've done some 78 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: work on the Cuban missile crisis and Beya Pigs. But 79 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: how did you get involved in following the rabbit hole 80 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: of the Kennedy assassination. 81 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 5: I was in college in I guess it was the 82 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 5: beginning of college in nineteen sixty seven. A friend of 83 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 5: mine was a rabid conspiracy buff and he turned me 84 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 5: on to Mark Lane's book, excellent book called Rush to Judgment, 85 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 5: which was a fairly scholarly dissection of the war and Report. 86 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 5: And I think Lane did a real service by saying, Hey, 87 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 5: the War Report's got a lot of problems. There's a 88 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 5: lot of inconsistencies, there's omissions, there's mistakes. Lane inferred that 89 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 5: that was the result of a cover up, but he 90 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 5: also implied, look, this could be a rush to judgment. 91 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 5: They were told to come out with this conclusion. They 92 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 5: worked very fast, and they ignored certain things, they covered 93 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 5: up other things, and this was the result a report 94 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 5: that said Oswald acted alone, there was no conspiracy. The 95 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 5: conspiracy theories kind of began at that point, and I 96 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 5: was obsessed with them. They were fascinating. It was fun 97 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 5: to talk about that the CIA and the FBI and 98 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 5: the Secret Service and the mafia and anti Castro Cubans 99 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 5: or Procrastro Cubans, and all these people were involved in 100 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 5: the conspiracy and somehow kept the secret all these years. 101 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 5: I loved learning more about it. Every book that came out, 102 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 5: I would read it, and then I would bore my 103 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,119 Speaker 5: friends by keeping them ball all night, telling them about 104 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 5: the hoboes who were removed from the train tracts and 105 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 5: the railroad overpass over Elm Street, one of whom looked 106 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 5: exactly like Howard Hunt. And you can show the picture 107 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 5: and you go, I guess it looks a little like 108 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 5: Howard Hunt. There was a lot of cool stuff, and 109 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 5: I realized, after years and years of obsessing on this, 110 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 5: that I wanted to believe the conspiracy theories. And then 111 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 5: I was not a applying the same level of rigorous 112 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 5: skepticism to conspiracy theories that I was applying to the 113 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 5: government's case. And I started looking at them in a 114 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 5: different light, and they all fell apart. I remember the day. 115 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 5: It was in the eighties. I was reading a new 116 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 5: book about the assassination, and I thought, wait a second, 117 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 5: this doesn't make sense. They wouldn't have planned it this way. 118 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 5: And I realized all the conspiracy theories were constructed from 119 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 5: today looking back at this constellation of facts and semi 120 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 5: facts and whatnot, and you could select what you wanted 121 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 5: and connect dots and make a scenario that made some 122 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 5: sort of sense. But that's not how the conspiracy was constructed. 123 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 5: It was constructed before the assassination by people planning what's 124 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 5: the best way to do this? And if you just 125 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 5: look at these theories from that point of view, none 126 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 5: of them made sense. They all seemed impossible. 127 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: Neither John nor I think I could speak for John, 128 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: neither of us have gone down the JFK conspiracy. See 129 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: rabbit hole, right. It's a whole industry. It's almost a 130 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: way of life for some people. But with the Warren Report, 131 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: I just have a really basic question in one that is, 132 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: an intelligence officer always gets face, and it comes down 133 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 2: to the burden of proof. The Warren Report says that 134 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and there was no conspiracy. 135 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 2: Is that exactly what it said or did it say 136 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: that we have no evidence that there was a conspiracy 137 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 2: that others weren't involved. There's a difference between we can 138 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: prove there was no one else involved in a conspiracy, 139 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: which is almost impossible to because you can never prove 140 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: a negative, righty right, it's unfalsifiable. 141 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 5: I could be wrong. My recollection as they were very definitive. 142 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 5: I read the first volume. There's twenty six volumes of 143 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 5: the Warren Report, and then there's some I read that 144 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 5: when it came out. My recollection is they were very definitive. 145 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 5: There was no conspiracy. He acted alone, there was no 146 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 5: second assassin. In the seventies Committee on Assassinations and they 147 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 5: studied various assassinations, mostly the JFK one, they included a 148 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 5: lot of evidence supposed as evidence that had come out 149 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 5: since the Warrant Report, and they concluded it was probably 150 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 5: a conspiracy. But they then said, but we can rule 151 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 5: out the CIA, the FBI, the Secret Service, the mafia, Cuba, Russia, 152 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 5: and anti Castro Cubans. They ruled out everybody who had 153 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 5: ever been suggested as a possible conspirator, leaving I don't 154 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 5: know who. And the reason that they said it was 155 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 5: probably a conspiracy was one piece of evidence which was 156 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 5: a Dickta belt. A Dickta belt recording supposedly a Dallas 157 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 5: police officer on a motorcycle in Deey Plaza had left 158 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 5: his microphone open and there was a dickt de belt 159 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 5: recording of this that people who listened to it said, 160 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 5: I hear four gunshots. Based on that one piece of evidence, 161 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 5: the House Select Committee said there was a fourth gun shot, 162 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 5: probably from the Grassy Knoll, and therefore it's a conspiracy. 163 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 5: Some years later, a panel of acoustical experts took a 164 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 5: look at this and said, no, A, these are not gunshots, 165 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 5: and b it did not take place at the time 166 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 5: of the assassination this recording, thereby ruling out that one 167 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 5: piece of evidence. The interesting thing about what the House 168 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 5: Select Committee said a fourth gun shot from the Grassy Null. 169 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 5: Remember the grassy Knoll is where the supposed professional assassin 170 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 5: was shooting from. If he fired the fourth gunshot, he missed. 171 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 5: According to that theory Oswald, the amateur fired three shots, 172 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 5: hit Kennedy twice, the professional and the grassy null fired once, 173 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 5: and so it kind of doesn't make sense. 174 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: So the FBI. JEdgar Hoover's FBI did an initial like 175 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: fifty page overview very soon after the assassination, and Hoover 176 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: himself pushed President Johnson to simply accept the FBI's report, 177 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: and because Hoover did not want to open up the 178 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: Bureau for criticism. They'd been monitoring Lee Harvey Oswald, they 179 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: hadn't spoke with him, and obviously they weren't tracking him 180 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: on the day of the assassination. And Hoover and Johnson 181 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: were pretty good friends. They lived on the same street 182 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: before Johnson was president, and Johnson eventually realized he did 183 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: have to have a special commission, but he nonetheless pushed 184 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,719 Speaker 1: them to try to accept the FBI view, which I 185 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: think was right. But because trying to protect the Bureau, 186 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: it was limited and it failed to anticipate all the 187 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: possible scenarios and rule them out. 188 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 5: And I think Mark Lane was right. I think the 189 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 5: Warrent Commission did omit certain things that they probably should 190 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 5: have included, particularly regarding Lee Oswald's background. And my theory 191 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 5: about that is that, as we learned from the Church 192 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 5: Committee in the seventies, Oswald was a kind of a 193 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 5: fringe character in this shadowy world in which the intelligence 194 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 5: community and law enforcement at the mafia were involved in 195 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 5: all kinds of illegal activities together, assassinations, spying on Americans, 196 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 5: trading political groups. And I think that Oswald, when he 197 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 5: was in New Orleans, rubbed shoulders with some of this. 198 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 5: And I think the Warrant Commission felt if we reveal 199 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 5: all we know about Lee Oswald's background having nothing to 200 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 5: do with the assassination, it could bring down the whole house. 201 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 5: So let's just put a lid on that stuff. And 202 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 5: I think in the course of doing that, it made 203 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 5: it look like they were covering up the assassination, when 204 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 5: in fact they were covering up something else. That's just 205 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 5: a theory. 206 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 6: Years ago, there was a reporting that had come out 207 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 6: from in the press, but according to the agency, there 208 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 6: was real indications that the GRU the Russian intelligence service, 209 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 6: was offering bounties for the killing of American CIA officers 210 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 6: back then in Afghanistan and of US officials. And we 211 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 6: could never prove that one hundred percent officially, and to 212 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 6: a certain extent that that's good insofar as even if 213 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 6: we're only ninety ninety five percent certain that's true that 214 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,599 Speaker 6: the Russians are putting bounties on the heads of our officers, 215 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 6: that is arguably that's a cause for war, I mean, 216 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 6: because you have to respond to that. So you've got 217 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 6: to have at one hundred percent learn that in the 218 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 6: Iraq war, with WMD claiming that it was there, when 219 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 6: it turns out it likely was, but it wasn't. 220 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: If with the Kennedy assassination, with Oswald having close ties 221 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: to both Cuba and certainly to Russia, if one of 222 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: the theories entertained and talked about was there is good 223 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 2: reason to believe that Cashrow or Russia was behind this. 224 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: Where does that take us? That takes us on a 225 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: maybe to the brink of war, and is that really 226 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 2: worthwhile if we can't be certain? 227 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: But in that case, you are actually suggesting a potential 228 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: cover up to. 229 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: Me based on nothing. It does make sense. He was 230 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: a Russian citizen, He was in the Russian embassy. Before this, 231 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: the Bay Pigs had gone down. He and Cruise Jutt 232 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: has squared off in Vienna the Cuban missile crisis. The 233 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: Russians may have seen him, or some rogue element may 234 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 2: have suggested to him that it would be a good 235 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: idea for Kennedy to be gotten rid of zero evidence 236 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: of this, right, I mean but it's how many Americans 237 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,599 Speaker 2: in those days were hanging out in the Russian embassy 238 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: and then having the shootcaster. I think. 239 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: But he was such a low level schmuck, the fact 240 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: that they would suggest, hey, you're the one we want 241 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: to kill. 242 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: The president of the United States, and we know from 243 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: our business it may not have been a guy a 244 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: KGB officer saying go shoot him, but a KGB officer saying, 245 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 2: if only he were gone. There's all sorts of ways 246 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: short of paying him money to do this. 247 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: Man, you are you were going down the rabbit hole, 248 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: Jerry Are No, I'm the different help tree. 249 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: The difference Betwe is like, I can see that as 250 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: a possibility, but it's completely unproven. It's total conjecture. I 251 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: get that well. 252 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 5: And I think you raise a good point, which is 253 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 5: that the Warrant report has good reason to tamp down 254 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 5: any suggestion that Oswald was working on behalf of the Russians, 255 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 5: because if they said he was, then we could be 256 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 5: at war. And I think John's pointed a I would 257 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,599 Speaker 5: assume the Russians had better people than this, you know, 258 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 5: incompetent to pull this off. And the other thing is, 259 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 5: if you look at the geopolitics at the time. After 260 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 5: the Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy and Khrushchev had a rap prochemont. 261 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 5: They both felt that we are the only two people 262 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 5: who pulled the world back from nuclear holocaust, and in 263 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 5: sixty three they were working together on a nuclear arms tree. 264 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 5: There was actually a warming between those two men in 265 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 5: nineteen sixty three. I don't know that the geopolitics at 266 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 5: the time would have led the Soviet Union to want 267 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 5: Kennedy killed because he'd be replaced by somebody who was 268 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 5: more of a hardliner. 269 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: But if you're going down rabbit holes and you're like yes, 270 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: But perhaps the KGB, the CIA had been had been 271 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: embarrassed by Kennedy who didn't support them in the Bay 272 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: of Pigs, and the KGB now thought Khushchef was being weak. Therefore, 273 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 1: those people could have wanted Even if Khrushchef didn't want 274 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: Kennedy killed, maybe the KGB thought it was worthwhile, or 275 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: maybe the CIA wanted Kennedy killed because he wasn't strong enough. 276 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: So that's why this game is interesting, and that's why 277 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: this has stayed on for thirty forty years, because if 278 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: you go take any of these scenarios. They have a 279 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: piece of it that's very interesting, and so of course 280 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: you would want to cover that up. 281 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 5: In a way, it's a little bit like the religious 282 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 5: argument of God works in mysterious ways. It's an answer 283 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 5: to pretty much everything. I don't know that either the 284 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 5: CIA or the Soviets would have picked Lee Harvey Oswald, 285 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 5: who was one of life's losers, to pull off the 286 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 5: biggest event of the century, and there's certainly no evidence 287 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 5: that they did. And I realized one day, I felt 288 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 5: I wanted to believe the conspiracy because psychologically this may 289 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 5: sound counterintuitive. I don't want to believe that one possess 290 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 5: low life loser can have such a huge, deleterious, damaging 291 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 5: effect on my life, in the life of my country. 292 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 5: I'm much more comfortable believing that something this damaging, this 293 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 5: hugest monumental, could only be pulled off by the most 294 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 5: powerful forces on earth. Because if a nothing like Oswald 295 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 5: can have this effect on history, then we're hanging by 296 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 5: a narrow thread. 297 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: That's why conspiracy are comforting, right, because it helps explain 298 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: unexplainable or complicated or chaotic or random things. 299 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 3: All Right, we're gonna get right back into that. 300 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: But first let's hear this. 301 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: Did you lose friends, Phil after you came out of 302 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole? And did you keep all your materials 303 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: and books? 304 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 5: I did not lose friends after I committed that. I 305 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 5: lost friends while I was in the rabbit hole because 306 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 5: I bored people to tears night after the night telling 307 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 5: them these and connecting assassination theories with the Robert Kennedy 308 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 5: and the Martin Luther King assassination because there were tenuous 309 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 5: ties that people would make to that. I think I 310 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 5: probably I was persona on grata in a lot of 311 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 5: rooms in the college dormitory because oh God, here comes Phil. 312 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 5: We're going to be up till three listening to these 313 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 5: horror stories. 314 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: And it's interesting. On one of our other episodes, we 315 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: had Michael Weissan, who was an expert on Russian intelligence 316 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: written some books on history of Russian active measures and 317 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: disinformation campaigns, and he points out that the JFK movie 318 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: by Oliver Stone was actually part of a Russian disinformation campaign. 319 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: In other words, the Russians saw that we were deep 320 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: in these rabbit holes and picked a conspiracy to push 321 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: into different things. Now, back then, we probably didn't have 322 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: the sense of this that we do now to see 323 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: how beautifully evil that is to say, oh, look at 324 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: the Americans are like chasing their tails here, let's throw 325 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: something in the middle of the watch to meet each 326 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: other up. 327 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: I have to say, I mean all of Besonde's movie JFK, 328 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 5: I think is one of the great movies. I disagree 329 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 5: with his interpretation of the events, but just as pure 330 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 5: as filmmaking, I think it's as good as it gets. 331 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 5: I love that movie. 332 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: One of the things too, that doesn't make any sense 333 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 2: is conspiracy. Theorists now on the JFK event keep saying 334 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: and hoping that one more there's one more document and 335 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: it will show right. And how many administrations have we 336 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: been through Obama, trum Biden, going back to Trump again, 337 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: if there was a piece of paper that laid out 338 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 2: this hunting plan. And we've said this before, but just 339 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 2: to be clear, some of the documents that are still 340 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: being held, one of them that came out was the 341 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: reason we knew Oswald was in the Russian m se 342 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: in Mexico City is because we had this We had 343 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: the embassy bugged and it was against Mexican law, and 344 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 2: the Mexican president himself said, I will allow you to 345 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: break Mexican law, but I will be in big trouble 346 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 2: and my legacy will be in big trouble if I 347 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: allow this. So you must promise to keep this secret forever. 348 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 2: But before that, people are thinking, oh, they're keeping these secrets. Oh, 349 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: this has got to be the one. And then it 350 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 2: comes out that it basically see, I had just made 351 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: a promise. I come something completely different, and we broke 352 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 2: our promise and it didn't solve anything. 353 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 5: Some people lie, some people forget details. But there's one 354 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 5: thing that prevented us from ever knowing definitively for sure, 355 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 5: and that is the wounds in Kennedy's neck and the back. 356 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 5: Doctors at Parkland Hospital saw him lying on his back 357 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 5: with a hole in the front of his throat. Now, 358 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 5: the Warren Report says that's the exit wound from the 359 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 5: bullet that entered his back. The doctors at Parkland Hospital 360 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 5: never turned him onto his back, They never saw a 361 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 5: hole in his back, They saw the hole in his throat, 362 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 5: assumed it was an entry wound, did an emergency tracheotomy 363 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 5: to try to save his life. He dies. The body 364 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 5: is shipped to Bethesda Naval hospital for an autopsy. The 365 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 5: doctors who do the autopsy see a tracheotomy opening in 366 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 5: the front of his neck and a hole on the 367 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 5: back of his neck, so they say, okay, the bullet 368 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 5: entered the back of his neck. They never talked to 369 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 5: the doctors at Parkland who thought that the hole in 370 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 5: the front was an entry wound. If the doctor's doing 371 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 5: the autopsy had been told, hey, there's a possibility that 372 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 5: there was an entry into the front, they would have 373 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 5: dissected the entire path of that bullet to see if 374 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 5: the tissue is pushing from front to back or from 375 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 5: back to front. They never did that. The body was 376 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 5: sealed in the coffin lying in state, and only then 377 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 5: did the two sets of doctors talk to each other 378 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 5: and was too late to examine it. Because of that 379 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 5: one missed communication, we don't have the definitive proof that 380 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 5: the hole in the front of his was an exit word. 381 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: There was a law in nineteen ninety two that stipulates 382 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: that anything that Menson mentions the assassination must be cross 383 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: filed into the JFK material. So in CIA, obviously there 384 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: was such pressure even back then on the agency, like, hey, listen, 385 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: we have to make sure that we keep good records 386 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: of all this stuff. And so they said, any if 387 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: you're anywhere in the world and someone says something about 388 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: the JFK, then has to be cross filed into the 389 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: JFK material and files. And the problem then becomes that 390 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: there's a bunch of sensitive material that has nothing to 391 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: do with the assassination in these files. For example, when 392 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: I was in Belgrade and Serbia, I met the former 393 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: head of the Serbian Intelligence Service, and as I was 394 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: sitting down and drinking with him, it turns out he 395 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: was obsessed with the assassination and he talked about it 396 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: for the bulk of the evening of our meeting. So 397 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: therefore I wrote up a meeting with the head of 398 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: the Serbian intelligence Service, and I included the JFK discussion 399 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the issues we were doing. 400 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: But then that report gets cross filed into the JFK material. 401 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: So when it comes time to release said they can't 402 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: release it because it has to deal with sensitive issues 403 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: going on and Serbia or what have you. But it 404 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: looks like we were, you know, to the outside, like, oh, look, 405 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: they're not giving up this sensitive JFK material. But it's 406 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: not in fact at all what happened. 407 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: And when we're planning our conspiracies, small conspiracies like an operation, right, 408 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: we always say Murphy gets a vote, And my mind 409 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: goes back to this one operation we were doing, and 410 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: it was a small conspiracy and it's a third world country. 411 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: We had a female officer meeting someone from a radical 412 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 2: Arab regime and he was thinking about he'd let us know. 413 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: He was thinking of telling us what was going on 414 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 2: in his government, but he wasn't sure yet, And so 415 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: they arranged for this walk in this park and as 416 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: they were walking through the park this isolated tops of trees, 417 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 2: police jump out, five or six police and they yell, 418 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: you're under arrest. And she's thinking looking at him, thinking oh, 419 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: he set me up. And he looks at her and thinks, oh, 420 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: she set me up. And they both looked at each 421 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: other and realize nobody set anybody up. And they started 422 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 2: talking to the police. And I swear to God what 423 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: came out of this was the police said, last year, 424 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: on this date, there was a ritual murder, a witchcraft murder, 425 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: in this exact spot, and we have determined that it 426 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: is likely for halt reasons as a country that believes 427 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 2: in witchcraft, that the perpetrators would return to this spot 428 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 2: perfectly with heart of the body that they took. And 429 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: so they talked back and forth, and the police very 430 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: you know, it's like, oh, well, these two clearly are 431 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 2: not like involved in witchcraft. And she said no, he's 432 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: my tutor. I'm teaching him English. And they went, oh, 433 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: you can go, but don't tell anybody we're here because 434 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: we're waiting for the next people and so and so, 435 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: you know, we planned everything out to be perfectly done, 436 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: and then when we had to send it into Washington, 437 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, we didn't think about the pulp murder. 438 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 2: Witch craft came that right. 439 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: So do you still follow this issue at all? Or 440 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: has coming out of the JFK rabbit hole made you 441 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: someone who's very skeptical of conspiracies in general. 442 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 5: I did stay in the rabbit hole for a while 443 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 5: when Vince Bugliosi's book Reclaiming History came out, because I 444 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,239 Speaker 5: think it's brilliant. It's a definitive, exhaustively long examination of 445 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 5: every conspiracy theory and every piece of supposed evidence that 446 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 5: supports them, where he examines them very carefully and knocks 447 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 5: them all down. There's all kinds of things he knocks down. 448 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 5: For instance, the opening of JFK, the film with the 449 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 5: drug addicted prostitute is thrown out of the car and 450 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 5: she claims, there's two Cubans on the way to Dallas 451 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 5: and they told me they were going to kill Kennedy. 452 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 5: Buugliosi traces tracks that down. There was a woman who 453 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 5: claimed this, but she claimed it after the assassination, not before. 454 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 5: The myth was always that it was two days before 455 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 5: the assassination she was telling people they're going to kill Kennedy. 456 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 5: It was after. And Bugliosi does this to every piece 457 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 5: of supposed evidence. But it's it's appealing. I understand the 458 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 5: appeal of it. It's fun, it's cool. It's cool to say, hey, 459 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 5: I know something you don't know. The government was lying 460 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 5: about this. Let me spin this tale. And I love 461 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 5: a good story. And the assassination conspiracies are really compelling, interesting, 462 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 5: vital stories. They just happen to be fiction. But I 463 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 5: like fiction too. 464 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: The issue of how hard it would be before the 465 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: fact to arrange something, as opposed to after the fact 466 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: putting it together. You put together sort of a small 467 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: example of like if someone was trying to plan this, 468 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: and someone was querying them what that might look like, 469 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: and you sent that to us, I was wonder if 470 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: it would be worthwhile reading that through to try to 471 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: help make that point. 472 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 2: Sure. 473 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 5: Sure. The idea is that instead of looking back at 474 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 5: the assassination from today, let's put ourselves in the middle 475 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 5: of October of nineteen sixty three and the three of 476 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 5: us are sitting together in Dallas. You're my case officers, 477 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 5: you're my handlers. You have entrusted me with the planning 478 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 5: of the Kennedy assassination. By the way, where would we 479 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 5: be meeting in a hotel room or somebody's house? Where 480 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 5: would this take place? Hotel room would be just fine, okay, 481 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 5: And I'm going to lay out for you the plan 482 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 5: that I've come up with, and I would start by saying, Okay, 483 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 5: we just got word Kennedy is coming to Dallas in 484 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 5: late November, and we're going to kill him. We've got 485 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 5: a guy, Lee Harvey Osworth, and he's a professional assassin. No, 486 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 5: he's just some guy who works in a warehouse. 487 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: But he's been a hit man. 488 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: Was he military? 489 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 5: Yes, he was a marine how'd that work out? Not 490 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 5: so good? He was court martialed for accidentally shooting himself 491 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 5: a lot terrific. 492 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: So has he ever shot anyone other than himself? 493 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 5: Well, he shot at someone. I remember it was in 494 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 5: all the papers earlier this year that someone took a 495 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 5: shot at that guy, General Walker. Yeah, yeah, well that 496 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 5: was Lee. But he missed. Okay, he missed, but he 497 00:25:58,520 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 5: did shoot at him. 498 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: Is it a hard shot? 499 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 5: No, it was actually a pretty easy shot. Walker was 500 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 5: sitting in a chair at home. It was nighttime, perfectly lit. 501 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 5: Oswald was outside thirty yards away. Why did he miss 502 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 5: He was using this piece of crap mail order rifle. 503 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: Oh okay, So for Trinity, we'll get him a really 504 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: good sniper rifle. 505 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 5: No, he's going to use the same piece of crap 506 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 5: mail order rifle. 507 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 2: What did he do after the route? 508 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 5: He defected to Russia. 509 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it sounded like you said he defected to Russia. 510 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, he defected to Russia, but he changed his mind 511 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 5: and we let him back, so the authorities know he 512 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 5: defected to Russia and came back to the United States. Absolutely. 513 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: Are you a teeny bit concerned that he might be 514 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: on a watch list? Or something. 515 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 5: Oh, he's on a watch list, are right, it's one 516 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 5: of the reasons he's pissed off at the government. The 517 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 5: FBI is always coming around interrogating him, his wife, his family, 518 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 5: his friends. 519 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, So why the hell are we using this guy? 520 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 5: Because he works at the Texas school Book Depository. Yeah, 521 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 5: so from the sixth floor window, he will have a 522 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 5: perfect shot if the presidential limo goes down Elm the street. 523 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: What do you mean if the residential limo goust down 524 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: Elm Street. 525 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 5: They haven't announced the President's I tinerary yet, they haven't 526 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 5: even announced where he's gonna speak. And truth be told, 527 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 5: there's no reason to believe he'll drive by there. 528 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: But if he does, if the president doesn't drive down Elm. 529 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 5: Street, honestly, we haven't thought about that yet. 530 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 2: Okay, walk me through how this goes down. The morning 531 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: of the presidential motorcade, Oswald drives to work. 532 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 5: And no, no, he doesn't drive. What do you mean 533 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,959 Speaker 5: he doesn't have a car. He doesn't even have a license. 534 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: How is he gonna get to work? 535 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 5: Probably just hitch your ride as a neighbor. 536 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so I guess you'll stash the rifle at the building. 537 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 5: So when he arrives, no, no, noly, he's gonna carry 538 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 5: the rifle with him in his neighbor's car. 539 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 2: And the neighbor says like, hey, Lee, why are you 540 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 2: carrying a rifle to work on the day the president 541 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: is driving by your building? 542 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: Oh? 543 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 5: Come on, he's not gonna carry it in the open, 544 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 5: but do you think we're stupid? He's gonna wrap it 545 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 5: in paper? 546 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 2: Hey, Lee, why are you carrying a rifle shaped object 547 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 2: wrapped in paper on the day the President is driving? 548 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 5: Guy, Well, mister smarty pants, we actually have an answer 549 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 5: for that. He's going to say. It's curtain rods. 550 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: Hey Lee, why are you carrying curtain rods to work? 551 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 5: Okay, that's a good question. I'll run it by Lee. 552 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 5: I'm sure he'll think of something. 553 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: Oh good, sir, he's smart, savvy. 554 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 5: No, he's stupid. But maybe i'll have the guy's work on. 555 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: All right, So let me see if I've got this. 556 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: This not very smart guy, who's not a very good shot, 557 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: who is being watched by the FBI, is going to 558 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: position himself to shoot the president if the President drives 559 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: on that street, which right now, we have no Reasonablie 560 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: he will. 561 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 5: That's our plan. 562 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 2: Then what what do you mean after he shoots the president? 563 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 2: Then what what's your escape plan? How do you get 564 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: him away from the scene of the crime. How do 565 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: you get him out of the city, out of the country. 566 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: What's the plan? 567 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 5: Well, I think Lee was just planning to go back 568 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 5: to his apartment. Maybe take in a movie, take in 569 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 5: a movie. Oh, I get it. You're worried he's going 570 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 5: to get arrested, and if he gets arrested, he could 571 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 5: talk and that could implicate us. Yes, worried about that. 572 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 5: Don't worry. We're gonna kill him, Thank. 573 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: God, that's the first sensible thing you said. You're going 574 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: to kill him before the police find him. 575 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 5: No, we're gonna kill him after the police find. 576 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: Him, before they interrogate him, right before he has chance 577 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: to say anything. 578 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 5: No, we're gonna let them interrogate him for a few days, 579 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 5: and then we're gonna kill him where right there in 580 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 5: the police. 581 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:21,239 Speaker 2: I get it. 582 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: One of the cops will say Oswald grabbed his gun 583 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: and there was a scuffle. 584 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 5: And there won't be a cop. We got this guy, 585 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 5: Jack Rup and he's a hitman. No, he owns his 586 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 5: strip club, but he's killed people before. Jack, he's a 587 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 5: pussy gut. 588 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: How is he gonna do this? 589 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 5: He's gonna walk into that police station and march right 590 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 5: up to Oswald, pull out his gun. 591 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: And think, and he can do this without being seen. 592 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 5: Hell no, he's gonna do it on live television. What oh, 593 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 5: I get what you're worried about? What if they arrest him? 594 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 5: Will he talk? 595 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a concern. 596 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 5: Don'n't worry. 597 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: We're gonna kill him to cook, thank you. 598 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, about three years later, we're gonna give him cancer. 599 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: Three years later, too long a little. 600 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 5: I sense you're a tiny bit skeptical about Plan A, 601 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 5: So let me run Plan B by. In Plan B, 602 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,239 Speaker 5: Oswald is not the only shooter. He'll be up there 603 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 5: on the sixth floor, just like Plan A, but we'll 604 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 5: also have a real, highly experienced professional assassin, let's call 605 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 5: him Harlows, and he'll be on the grassyno. 606 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: Good, Okay, now you're talking. What's the grassy knoll. 607 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 5: It's a little slope next to Oswald's building. Carlos will 608 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 5: be at the back of the grassyno. 609 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: Okay, so what's the player. 610 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 5: The President's limo will drive right past the grassy knoll 611 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 5: at a perfect ninety degree angle, and Carlos will shoot him. 612 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 5: Then we say, hey, there's a guy in the sixth 613 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 5: story window behind the president with a rifle. Everyone will 614 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 5: go after Lee and he'll take the fall. 615 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, So Carlos is going to shoot Kennedy from 616 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: the side at almost ground level, but you're gonna say 617 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: the real shooter was six stories up and behind. 618 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, pretty good. 619 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: Huh. 620 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: I can't believe I have to ask this, But if 621 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 2: Carlos shoots Kennedy from the side and it almost ground level, 622 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 2: how are you going to make the wounds look like 623 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 2: they came from behind and six stories up. 624 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 5: I'll tell you exactly how. Carlos is gonna shoot Kennedy 625 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 5: in the front of the throat, but he's not gonna 626 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 5: kill him, so they'll rush into the hospital. They'll do 627 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 5: an emergency trachey out of me and that will obliterate 628 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 5: the entry wounds in the front of his throat. But 629 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 5: here's the brilliant part. Oswald will shoot him in the 630 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 5: back of the head at the same time that Carlos 631 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 5: shoots him in the front of the throat. So when 632 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 5: they do the autopsy, they won't see an entry wound 633 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 5: in his throat because it's been obliterated by the trachy 634 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 5: out of him. But they will see the entry wound 635 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 5: in the back of his head, and they'll say it 636 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 5: was only one assassin. He was the guy shooting from behind, 637 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 5: and we put it on the lead pretty good. 638 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: Huh. 639 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: Just one thing. If Carlos is shooting from the grassy 640 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: knoll at a ninety degree angle to Kennedy, in other words, 641 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: from the side, how does he hit him in the front. 642 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 2: Of the throat? 643 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 5: You are so negative? 644 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: All right? 645 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: So that's our little. 646 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 5: That's pretty much how it could have gone down. But 647 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 5: it's a dumb plan. I think we can agree on that. 648 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: We'll be right back in a moment. 649 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: Jerry and I are concerned about going so deep in 650 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole because it becomes such an industry. But 651 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: if you just go back to the like, okay, playing 652 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: this out for me, it all seems to fall apart. 653 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: All the clever things fall apart pretty quickly. 654 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 5: Yeah. And also then if you think specifically about was 655 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 5: it the KGB, was it the mafia, you always have 656 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 5: to come back to would they have hired Lee Harvey Oswald, 657 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 5: a guy who failed at everything in his life. 658 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: We would speak about conspiracies and myths. There's a view 659 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: out there that there are professional assassins roaming the earth 660 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: that can be just found via certain dark web or 661 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: whatever it is. I think one of the little secrets 662 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: of law enforcement is that actually, these professional assassins don't exist. 663 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: There isn't a crew of people who make their living 664 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: off of killing people. There's crappy, low level criminals who 665 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: are willing to do something for money and maybe get 666 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: themselves caught. But there's a notion that there's these incredibly 667 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: skilled professionals. Like in the Day of the Jackal or 668 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: what have you just done? 669 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 5: Was there Carlos? Was there? Carlos? 670 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: He was a terrorist? Yes, he wasn't really a Carlos. 671 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: A jackal had a cool name. 672 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 5: But the guy who Day of the Jackal was about 673 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 5: the guy who tried to kill de Gaul? Was that 674 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 5: a real personal thing? 675 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: So no, But there were conspiracies. So that go back. 676 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: De Gaul gave or withdrew the French from Algeria, where 677 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 2: they'd been for one hundred and forty years, and inside 678 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: of two months, over a million French had to like 679 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 2: bandon Algeria, where they'd been for generations, and those people, 680 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: the Piagnois, they had put together over and over again 681 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,959 Speaker 2: conspiracies to real conspiracies to kill de gaul and they 682 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 2: all failed. I think the book and the movie were great, 683 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 2: but there never really was a Jackal, that the oas 684 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 2: the underground piegnoits resistance to the Gal, that none of 685 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: them ever panned out. Now, these people were professional military 686 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: and the French Foreign Legion guys, and they were unable 687 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: to do it. So, Phil you famously did Sneakers and 688 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 2: about CIA, and I was wondering, what is your sense 689 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 2: of the role of CIA now in US politics? 690 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 5: Is that, first, I say, Sneakers is more about the NSA. 691 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 5: Some of all fears, which I directed, is certainly about 692 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 5: the CIA. My sense, and I as an outsider, is 693 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 5: that the agency has, like everything else in American society, 694 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 5: has gone through a lot of changes. I think that 695 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 5: in the fifties and sixties it was probably less bound 696 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 5: by laws and rules and was more free flowing. It 697 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 5: was the guy, the OSS guys who were cowboys in 698 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 5: some ways, and I think they way overstepped the bounds. 699 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 5: My guess is that today it's much much more difficult 700 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 5: for the agency to break the law, and that the 701 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 5: role is much more about intelligence gathering then the way 702 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 5: the movies depicted, which is about cloak and dagger. And 703 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 5: I've learned from you guys that I think the first 704 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 5: time we talked and you corrected me said, we're not 705 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 5: CIA agents, We're officers. We're not spies. We recruit spies, 706 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 5: we run spies, but we're not out there with the 707 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 5: binoculars at the edge of the nuclear base trying to 708 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 5: break in. I actually went to the CIA where we 709 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 5: were prepping some of all fears, and went to the 710 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 5: Russia desk, and what really struck me was it looked 711 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 5: like it could be the Russian studies office at some 712 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 5: mid sized university. It was a room of desks. All 713 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 5: the desks had books and magazines, and everybody had little 714 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 5: nesting dolls from their trips to Russia, and everybody had 715 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 5: little bottles of vodka. And some of the people were 716 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 5: watching Russian cable television, must monitoring television. Others were reading magazines. 717 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 5: And I realized this is the unglamorous, most important work 718 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 5: that the agency does, which is intelligence gather and a 719 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 5: lot of that intelligence is gathered from public sources, just 720 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 5: watching what's available and say, oh, that guy didn't used 721 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 5: to stand next to that guy. What does that mean? 722 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 5: And it was really based on that trip that we 723 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 5: added a scene to the movie where they're watching their 724 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 5: Russian president and some newsreel footage and someone says, oh, 725 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 5: his jacket isn't fitting well, I wonder if he's like 726 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 5: losing weight, you know. And that guy he was standing 727 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 5: next to him at the conference in Vienna. No, that's 728 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 5: not that guy. That was a different guy. And it's 729 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 5: all these people just arguing as they would in a 730 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 5: college dorm. But when we entered that office, as you 731 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 5: guys know this, if you walk down the hallway and 732 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 5: a door opens, what you see is an interior wall 733 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 5: that blocks the view of that room. You have to 734 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 5: walk in through the door, walk around this little interior 735 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 5: wall to get into the room, so that anybody walking 736 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 5: down the hall can't see anybody in those rooms. And 737 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 5: I said that was cool. 738 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: In the early days of CAA, when people talked about 739 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: it was a rogue elephant, or it got involved in 740 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: illegal things or over through countries. It was often because 741 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: it did not have congressional oversight in those type of things. 742 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: It was essentially a plaything of the president. Eisenhower would 743 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: just say that head a CIA. It would really helped me. 744 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: If you I'm getting pressure from United Fruit, can you 745 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: go into wherever it did Hondurst or something and overthrow 746 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: those people. And they just acted on behalf of President's whims. 747 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: And what I worry now is newly elected President Trump 748 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: is he wants an organization that works specifically for him. 749 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: He doesn't want outside interference, he doesn't want the Congress involved, 750 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: he doesn't want to have to justify or he's doing. 751 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: He wants it to be his weapon. And we spent 752 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: a lot of years changing, adapting, and reforming the intelligence 753 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: community to be responsive to the will of the people 754 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: and the Congress and the president. And I worry we 755 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: might be going back to that old thing. 756 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 757 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 5: Years ago, I was researching the Cuban missile crisis. I 758 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 5: did a huge amount of research into it for a 759 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 5: mini series. And one of the things that really impressed 760 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 5: me is that in the summer of nineteen sixty three, 761 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 5: we knew there was a Russian military build up in Cuba, 762 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 5: but everybody said it's not nuclear, including the CIA analysts, 763 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 5: But It was the Director of Central Intelligence who was 764 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 5: the one person who said to Kennedy, I think it's nuclear, 765 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 5: and his analysts had told him, no, it's not. And 766 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 5: he said, look, I'll let you guys submit your report 767 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 5: as it is, but I'm just going to tell the 768 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 5: President that I have a different opinion. And it was 769 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 5: based on one thing. He said, these anti aircraft emplacements 770 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 5: that the Russians are putting in Cuba are all in circles, 771 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,479 Speaker 5: but there's nothing in the middle of those circles. He said, 772 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 5: I think those will someday have nuclear launch pads in 773 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,959 Speaker 5: the middle of those circular array of anti aircraft emplacements. 774 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: And so they set the U two's up to go. Look, 775 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: that was a director McCahon, I think. 776 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 5: The Director mccon, who was a Republican Eisenhower administration official. 777 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 5: And what's interesting is after he told Kennedy this and 778 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 5: Kennedy said, okay, sent up more two's. Macone goes to 779 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 5: the south of France for his honeymoon. He spends all 780 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 5: of August in France, and when he comes back, he says, 781 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 5: what are the U two's found? And they go, oh, 782 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 5: the weather hasn't been good. We couldn't send them up, 783 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,479 Speaker 5: and so it's not until the end of September early 784 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 5: October when the weather clears and they can send U 785 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 5: two's and then also send those low level fighter photography planes. 786 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 5: And that's what comes up with. 787 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: And what also happened simultaneously is is that Clendestine Service, 788 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 1: the part where Jerry and I worked, had a really 789 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: successful spy in Moscow. One of our first senior gru 790 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: military intelligence spi is named Penkowski, who provided us a 791 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: lot of the military books and doctrine, and so we 792 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: were able to look at how those forces had arrayed 793 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: themselves and look at their official doctrine and realize, oh 794 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: my god, this is a setup for a nuclear thing. 795 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: So the human spy who gave us information allowed the 796 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: U two and others that went over to put those 797 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: pieces together and realize what was happening there. 798 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 5: There's a great moment to the night that the photo 799 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 5: analysts call the National Security Advisor to say there's nuclear 800 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 5: emplacements going into Cuba. It's a Sunday night and McGeorge 801 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 5: Bundy is having a cocktail party at his house and 802 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 5: he gets this phone call from someone at CIA. It 803 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 5: wasn't the director somebody below him. It's an unsecured phone, 804 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 5: and so the guy says, doesn't say who it is. 805 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 5: He says, you know those things we were talking about, 806 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 5: and Bundy recognizes the voices he asked and he goes, 807 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 5: they're there. 808 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: Phil. It's always fantastic talking to you. We love meeting 809 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: with you and talking to you. And you've had an 810 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: incredible career and little did we know you had this JFKP. 811 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: So thank you for spending time with us. 812 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 5: It's always my pleasure. I always learned so much from 813 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 5: talk to. 814 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 7: About Thanks so much for Mission Implausible is produced by 815 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 7: Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Cipher, and Jonathan Stern. The 816 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 7: associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible It's a production 817 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 7: of Honorable Mention and Abominable pictures for iHeart Podcasts.